 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Bucciolato. My co-host and partner in crime, Scott Bernstein, is away and unable to join us. But we're super happy, super psyched to have a great guest with us this evening. Carrie Drobin from Phoenix, Arizona is, I mean, when you look at her CV, it's mad impressive, as I would say. She's an attorney. She co-authored a case that was presented before the United States Supreme Court on her CV. She was involved at Johns Hopkins University. She's an author, a TV producer, just a prolific person. And we're really glad to have you with us, Carrie. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. It was fun. So I actually, I think some of our listeners may know I lived in Arizona for a while. And one thing that was interesting to me was how different the gangland landscape was from Detroit. Here in Detroit, we're used to hearing about the Italian mafia, African-American organized crime. And you don't hear as much about the bikers, although they are active here in Michigan. But I remember living in Arizona and flying back from Detroit one time, I had visited Michigan, flew back to Arizona. And in the Phoenix airport, seeing like Hell's Angels, like fully patched Hell's Angels. And I was just like, as a Michigan guy, I was like, damn, like you don't see that like around here. And then I spent a lot of time in Mesa, as I was telling Carrie. And I would see them all over the place. Like you would be at like a taco shop or something and Mesa and like the bikers would walk in. So that's primarily what we're going to talk about today is the outlaw bikers and their culture and some of these cases. So you've written a number of books about this. Tell us about, I mean, how did you get started and interested in writing about outlaw bikers? Well, it's kind of one of those, the first book, Running with the Devil, is it showcases the very famous ATF infiltration of the Hell's Angels. It was the first time ever that the Hell's Angels had ever been infiltrated by law enforcement. So it was a really big case, but I kind of landed that case by accident. It's a really, the backstory is almost as interesting as the story. I was asked to write the book. I was approached by the agent, Jay Dobbins, who was still undercover. He was still in that investigation working for the ATF when he asked me to write his story. And he approached me because at the time I was married to an undercover officer who was working on a task force that happened to be on Jay Dobbins' task force. Now, I didn't know what my husband was involved in at the time, because everything was undercover, but it sort of serendipitously came my way because they knew I was a writer. They knew I was a lawyer. They knew that I could hold their secrets because it's a crime to sell your story while you're still employed with a federal agency and while you're involved in the undercover operation. So it was a very strange backdoor way of getting me involved. And I'll just say that when I was first asked to write the story, I absolutely said, no way. There is no way I'm writing a book about the Hell's Angels, there's no way. And especially an ongoing investigation. So it was about by the third time they asked me to write their story is when I finally agreed to write it. So that was an odyssey in and of itself, but that's how it wound up in my lap. Wow, so a couple of things. First of all, it's interesting that Jay Dobbins was even in real time, this fascinating undercover role, he was already recognizing like, this is a story that should be told. However, I'm not sure how this is going to play out, but that's interesting that he was already thinking like, this needs to be told. People are going to want to hear about this. Right, yeah, it was, I think, not only did he want the story out, but the undercover operatives themselves had already decided it should be a movie. And they had already at one point, you know, sat around and figured out who was gonna play their various roles on their part. So they were already thinking very big because this was a landmark case. And at the time they were doing it, it was completely, it was improvisation, street theater. They had no idea how far they were gonna get in the investigation, where it was gonna go, where it was gonna leave, but they knew they were doing something big. Yeah, and so let me ask you, maybe you're not at liberty to disclose, but your husband at the time, is that one of the people you talk about in the book? Like, was he part of that specific undercover operation? He was not part of that specific ruse, but he was part of it. Yeah, he's on the other side of it, so. Okay, wow, okay, that, boy, I'd like to know more about it. So, and you were reluctant, obviously, the Hells Angels are a very serious organization. So had you, were you aware at the time of their significant presence in Arizona? I mean, was organized crime something that was even on your radar at that point? Well, I was, I had worked as a prosecutor previously, but at the time I was approached to write the case, I was a defense attorney. So that in itself is also an interesting conflict between my husband and I, which is one of the reasons I didn't know a whole lot about what he was doing, because he's trying to catch them and I'm trying to free them. So it wasn't, I mean, it was on my radar. I was part of, I was doing a lot of prosecution of gang cases. And when I got into defense work, I was working on the defense side, but I had moved into the capital arena. So I was doing death penalty work by the time this case came around, but I certainly knew of the Hell's Angels. I knew what they were all about. They were not on my radar, so to speak, but I definitely knew what they were involved in. I knew they were, you know, unorganized criminal syndicate. So, and I knew that nobody should really write about them. And I should just say the PS of this is I actually was living in Sunny Barger's neighborhood at the time that I was approached to write this book. So that was a complete coincidence, strange. But I would see Sunny Barger writing his motorcycle around town in Cape Creek. And so I knew of them, but that's about all I knew about them. So Sunny was, and actually we had another OG episode where we interviewed George Christie, who was a heavyweight with the Hell's Angels himself. And we talked a little bit about Sunny. So if audience members are unaware, he's like the big doll. He's like the Don. We're talking about outlaw bikers. I mean, one of the founding fathers of the Hell's Angels. So very significant individual. Just, I mean, you don't even have to talk about crime, just popular culture, just counterculture in general. He's a significant person. So you, wow, that's crazy that you're in the same neighborhood as, so did you ever meet him or have any interaction with him at the time, just as a neighbor? No, I mean, I just, I knew of him and I knew, I mean, you know, the Hell's Angels would have their toys for taught charity runs in Cape Creek. And, you know, and they like to do a lot of these runs in these sort of sleeper communities that are, you know, picturesque and beautiful. So that happened to be one of them. Cape Creek was one of them where they would come and do their runs. So they would come and do a lot of the eateries there. So we, I would see them. And I certainly knew of them, but I didn't know to the extent that I was, you know, they were going to be such a massive part of my life. Right. They were. Definitely. I mean, you talk about the presence that they had on the West Coast. I mean, it was, you know, the Hell's Angels is Americana. I mean, that is America's support to, you know, to organize crime. So, you know, I had always known that they were, you know, very involved in the community, but I don't think I knew to the extent, you know, that they were all about territorial, you know, capturing territories and chapters and all of that stuff. But it quickly became a very big part of my life. Yeah. I mean, so it's interesting also just to half jokingly here, I bet that was actually a really safe neighborhood because no one's going to mess around in Sunny Barger's neighborhood, I bet, right? You know, the old joke, like whoever the mafia guy lives, like that's the street you want to live on, because nobody is going to be no breaking enterring or fooling around in that neighborhood. You'll get a lot of trouble. More trouble than you would with the cops if you messed around on Sunny's block, I imagine. So, well, getting back to your book, Running with the Devil, it's a really compelling book. And it's, I don't know how I should put this because I want people to read this, but it produces a lot of anxiety. I know that's like, maybe you shouldn't say that because I want people to buy your book and read it, but as you're reading it, you can feel the tension and because the stakes are really high, right? I mean, if they find out who, it's mostly about Bird or Jay Dobbins, but there are some other undercover operatives there. I mean, if they figure out who they are, right? They're going to kill them in all likelihood. So, I was wondering if you could speak to like the training in terms of how was Dobbins able to acclimate himself with that environment because we interviewed one time another former undercover agent, Jack Garcia, who was an undercover operative in the FBI and he infiltrated the Gambino crime family. And he talked about how you have to master everything in that subculture because one tiny thing can give you a way that you're not the real deal, that you're not real gangster, not a real outlaw. So how did he go about mastering those gestures and language and how you carry yourself to convince them that he was the real deal, a real outlaw? Well, so Jay Dobbins was already masterful at different undercover roles. He all told in his career he's been involved in maybe 500 different undercover investigations. So he had already the skills and he was already working in Bullhead City as a gun runner at the time. So he had developed a persona in Bullhead City before this case ever came about. And so he kind of lived that role. But when he came up with the idea was actually kind of a roundabout way, but there was a shootout in a Harris casino and between the Hells Angels and the Mongols. And that kind of put the Hells Angels on the map for Jay Dobbins to be able to bring this or present this idea to his agency. Where he said, now we have to do something about this, we have to infiltrate this very violent organized criminal syndicate. So he was already had his persona as a gun runner and he decided to bring in a very trusted undercover informant with him. So he brought in this guy named Pops. So the two of them already sort of knew that lifestyle and how to live in that world. But he talks about it as he just does street theater. It's like method acting. He became the person, he became that role and his mantra and actually all of their mantras whenever you work undercover is to stay as close to the truth as possible because you don't wanna mess up. So you keep your backstory very close to who you really are in case there's a slip up. So that's kind of prepared for it and is an improvisational thing. I mean, he developed his backstory, Pops had a backstory. They kind of brought in a couple of other members which is a very small group originally that started and they all had their scripts. And so they play acted with this and that the crazy thing about this case is not only did they improvise their roles and their backstories of who they were gonna be in this world but they also created a fictitious Arizona chapter of a real group that only existed in Mexico at the time. So they became the solo angels. So it was like a mock fictitious solo angels chapter in Arizona because they had to be a chapter in order to infiltrate the house angels. So they were playing roles within roles. Yeah, it's fascinating to read about how they were able to, so they adopt this role, they infiltrate the organization. And so as you're saying, they have prior experience at portraying or undercover work as outlaws or at least criminals. So that part, it sort of makes sense. One takeaway I have from the book is how the way they're really able to get the Hell's Angels attention is by not just being tough guys or outlaws but that they're earners. They can make money. That's what gets the Hell's Angels attention. So it's not just that Jay is a tough guy or as they call him bird in the book but he's making money from gun running and from debt collecting. And in his cover stories, debt collecting for the Italian mafia. Maybe he was involved in drug running to an extent. Is that implicated? I can't remember from the book. But either way, they know this guy's an earner. And it seems like, do you think like when I was reading your book I thought they're starting to let their guard down a little bit because the Hell's Angels are supposed to be vet these guys and I know they do to a certain extent but every time bird is flashing money they seem to really bring him in closer. Can you comment on that aspect of the book? Right. You know, that's absolutely true. I mean, the Hell's Angels actually all of the organized crime syndicates they're all about territory and they're all about acquiring more territory and getting their foothold in something. So Jay was very adept at that and he would present himself as this very successful debt collector. And one of the things he was able to offer to the Hell's Angels was that he could get them into Mexico. He'd get them across the border to get that territory. So that was very attractive to them. And he did that by saying that he was, you know he was a solo angel and the international president was in Mexico, which was true. Well, he was, but that was his ruse to get them to really embrace him and he would have to flash the money around and pretend he was missing. He would always have his cell phone going, you know where he was having conversations. A lot of times he was having conversations with his family, but he would pretend they were big wigs, you know that he was making these connections with. So that was part of his whole persona and his whole ruse to get them to embrace him. Yeah. I like in the book how there are moments where the Hell's Angels start to talk to other Hell's Angels from other territories and they're saying, you know I'm not sure about these guys. Like I don't remember hearing about them. I'm not sure, this idea they're from a gang from Mexico but they're operating in Arizona or an outlaw club. I'm not sure about that. And then Dobbins will propose some type of big score and then all of a sudden they go back to like okay, well I'm sure he's cool. So come back, right? At first they're thinking about, I'm not sure about this guy. And when they think they can score he's back in the inner circle again. Right, one of the defining victories I guess one of many in this case was when they got their foothold into Mesa Bob who was the chapter president of the Mesa Hell's Angels. And Jay will talk about this and I think it's mentioned in the book too about how he had absolutely no idea whether or not he was gonna win over Mesa Bob. I mean it was a complete, almost a complete fluke that they did but once they got in with Mesa Bob he's the one to introduce them and vouch them to all the other chapters and pretty soon they were all kind of vying for Jay and his group. They all wanted him to join their chapter and part of it was not only did he have something to offer but he was also incredibly charismatic and incredibly good at his role. And so in fact he says he got so into his part that he began to live that role. He began to be that person. So that was part of the interesting that often happens with undercover operatives that they get too involved or too engrossed in the part that they're playing and they can't really separate that out. And that certainly happened to him. He was so enamored with what he was doing and the role he was playing that he had a very difficult time extricating himself out of that role. Yeah, you feel, you can't help but feel bad when you're reading the book and you think about him saying like, okay so I'm with these outlaws two, three, four days in a row and then I have to go to Home Depot for to fix something at my own house or take my kid to, and like being able to shut that down, right? Like shut down the outlaw part and go back to just being a regular guy who goes to the Home Depot or whatever that that was pretty stressful for him. And you can get that sense reading your book. Yeah, it was very stressful. And I think he would even admit that he had a very difficult time doing that because his life was on the line. I mean, if one slip up, in fact there is a slip up in Home Depot where he's with his daughter and he has to come up with a backstory for his daughter so that, the Hell's Angels believe what he's doing. So very hard to slip in and out of that role because as he says, being a prospect for the Hell's Angels is a 24 seven job. And the minute you pull out of that is the minute that your life is in danger. And I actually had a lot of experience with that because as I mentioned, my husband at the time was an undercover agent. So he also played those roles and he worked in narcotics but he played those roles where it was very difficult for him to suddenly step out of it and be the husband. He's the husband in one day and the operative in the next. So it was a really interesting sort of life imitating art moment for me because I really did understand that kind of world. Yeah, well it makes sense then that you would be a person they would trust and confide in to tell this story. So getting back to the chronology of the book, so he successfully infiltrates the Hell's Angels. He's not a member, but he's part of the inner circle. They think he's a good enforcer, good earner. Another thing that's really interesting about your book is because of how the Hell's Angels work, it's not like he's just working with one club. So you really get a sense of the whole landscape that there are multiple chapters in Arizona and he bounces back and forth and as you point out, they're actually vying. They start to compete with each other. They want him to prospect for them and for those who don't know, prospect is like you're on the verge of becoming a full-fledged member. You're not sort of like a probationary period, right? Where you have to earn your way in. So they'd all like for him to become a full member and start that process. So tell us a little bit about the landscape of Arizona. I mean, how many Hell's Angels chapters are there or at least give us an idea of how that works and the politics of that and the territory, as you mentioned. So each chapter, I don't know how many there are now, but if you think about the... So he could, in one day or the span of one day, and I think this comes out in the book too, he could be invited to a chapter party up in Flagstaff, for example. And at the same day, later that night, be invited down to Tucson. So they're 100 miles apart. So he would be going in all different directions to all of these different clubhouses to prospect. And as a prospect, you're essentially a slave. You're a slave to whoever's bringing you into the chapter. So there was one incident, for example, where he was just called up and said, we just need you here and we need you to go after a rival gang. As an undercover operative, this is like the agent's nightmare. Now they have to go and get involved in a shootout with a rival gang. If they don't shoot, and the rival gang happened to be the Banditos. And so they were summoned up to do this and they knew. So prospecting involves a series of tests. And so one of the tests that the Hells Angels will do is they'll see how loyal you are to the specific chapter, loyal to the club in general. So when they asked Jay and his solo angels to come out and shoot up these Banditos to show their loyalty for the club, it put them in a terrible position because they're a lawman. They're not gonna go out and commit murder for the club. Well, they do, but we'll talk about that. So they were put in a very difficult position and that's when they had to, they kind of came up with this ruse and said, we have to stop for gas. They stopped for gas and they had a phone call to their ATF handler and said, we get us out of this. So they were able to delay the Banditos so there wasn't a shootout. So those were, you know, so they passed that test. And so they impressed the chapters. And that's what started this whole competition sort of reached among the chapters in Arizona. I mean, they, they're wide reaching. They have chapters in Mesa. They have chapters in Chandler. They have chapters. And these are, these are like, at least, I mean, like I mentioned Flagstaff and Tucson's about four hour drive. So they're on a motorcycle the whole time. So that's also exhausting. So it created this enormous stress for Jay, for the whole group actually, because they had to figure out how they were gonna stay up for sometimes 24 hours or more to get to all of these different clubhouses. So they became very popular by going and being loyal and saying they were gonna be willing to do anything. And yet it was such an exhausting job that they almost sabotaged themselves. I mean, I think at one point Jay was saying he was drinking like five red bowls a day, you know, popping pills to stay awake. So they really, it just wore on them. Yeah, I think even at some point passes out, right? Like he's just the exhaustion, I mean, it's difficult to sustain. And the bikers at least in the book, they're using meth, right? So they're going for days, but if you're the undercover guy and you can't do that, right? Like you're just drinking red bowls, nonstop or coffee or something and you're not used to that regimen, right? You just collapse. And I think that happens to them at one point in the book. Constantly, yeah, constantly walking that tightrope and then in between that, getting home, like trying to be the father and the husband that he's trying to be. So if you imagine all of that happening at once, it's pretty horrible. I mean, those are the tests really, they're drug tests or, you know, will you shoot and kill for the club? One of the bigger ones, which was really difficult for them to get around was women. You know, they're thrown women constantly. And of course, J is not, you know, none of the operatives are gonna do this, but J particularly is married, is not gonna sleep around, you know, to prove his point. So that's how they, that's what fascinated me about this case is that it's the first time they brought in a female undercover operative, which was, it provided some pretty hilarious moments as they tried to get the right women to fulfill the role of J Dobbins old lady. Right, that's another great, interesting moment in the book where he says, you know, I can't, yeah, I'm running out of excuses here in terms of why I'm not, you know, this promiscuous outlaw like the other members. Like we have to figure out a way that I have like a woman with me all the time so that I don't have to keep on coming up with these random excuses. So they introduce a female undercover agent. And it's interesting that she sets these boundaries up right away that she's not just like some tweaker lady who's going to be pushed around. She presents herself as a real confidant of his and someone who can, is kind of gangster herself, right? Is that, would you say that was accurate? Yeah, I think Jenna, Jenna was the role. I mean, she was a new recruit straight out of training. And so she had no undercover experience at all but she looked the part. She was very voluptuous, she was very gregarious. She could really kind of mine her way through these, these, these Hell's Angels. And one of the interesting things about that role is it was the first time the operatives really had to deal with the female component to it. So not only was she serving a role for Jay to keep him, you know, test-free basically but she also realized there was a hierarchy among the women. So the women don't have it so great in these gangs either. I mean, they're usually property of, you know they're passed around, they are kind of at the mercy of, of whomever wants them. So, so she developed a persona that was big that protected her against that. So they liked her and they didn't subject her to all of those female tests either. So that's how she got away with things. So I always think that she was sort of the backbone of this whole group cause they were gonna get tossed out if they didn't have an explanation for why they weren't sleeping with everybody. So I love that part where she comes in and just and then she be kind of, she be friends a lot of the women too. Right, and she's able to gather Intel, she's able to gather her own stream of Intel from those relationships as well. And it also gives her insight into the politics of the club, right? Her relationship with the women, she can hear some things that maybe Jay would not have been in a position to gather that kind of Intel. Who's trending up, who's trending down in terms of right like leadership and things like that. Exactly, it was sort of a wonderful unexpected sidebar to this whole operation. And so I think she did, she brought a lot to this group and I think that just who she was, she had a huge role in helping them get to their ultimate goal, which was to become full patch. They wanted to be members, made members of the Hells Angels. Right, so at this point in the investigation they've already demonstrated that they're willing to kill but they haven't killed yet but they're willing to kill, that goes a long way. And one thing when I'm reading your book I notice how, you don't think about these things necessarily as just someone who reads about true crime is that when you have an undercover operation there are practical considerations like budget and like how long is this going to last? And so there's pressure by the prosecutors and others like expedite this, let's wrap this up. We can't spend money on this forever. So the undercover ops have to keep on thinking of ways to fast track this process. Make a lot of money, be a tough guy, be willing to kill and then they come up with this idea like the best way to fast track this is to actually kill someone. And so just wait for a moment, the audience because they don't kill someone just spoiler but at least this ruse to make the Hells Angels think that they're assassins. So in the underworld landscape of the outlaw biker clubs there are rivals. So you don't just have the Hells Angels you have the outlaws, the Banditos, the Mongols and the Hells Angels get along with some of these clubs and other clubs they don't get along with. And in this case, the Mongols, they were big rivals did not get along with them. So tell us about this idea of how they're going to demonstrate to the Hells Angels that we're capable and not only capable but we'll execute Mongols if we see them and they carry out this like really extraordinary operation, tell us about that. So you're right, they had to keep producing in order to keep the money, the prosecutors and everybody happy funding this. But what happened was because of the extreme kind of how they had to stay up all the time in this group, Jay was popping Red Bulls and Hells. Well, they had this confidential informant named Pops who was really languishing. He was really having a hard time. He was losing himself. And they needed to extricate him out. So his boss and the powers that be at the ATF thought, we have to get Pops out because he's going to either compromise the investigation or he's going to die. So they can't just extricate somebody out of the Hells Angels. There has to be a reason that somebody leaves because you don't leave that game. So they came up with this way that they were gonna get Pops out and that's what led to this ruse, this fake murder. So Pops, the story went that Pops was, there was this one, this Mongol who was wandering around in Mongolana, Mexico and Jay went to his buddies, these Hells Angels and they said, we're gonna go down and take them out. Pops gonna go down and take them out. So they fake send Pops out there. And of course Pops fake dies while he's taking out the Mongol. So that's how they get Pops out of the investigation. But meanwhile the agents then have to stage a murder. So they have a real ATF agent pose as the victim. They put a cut on him, which is the colors, you know, their patches, it's from a seized Mongol vest. They put it on this guy. They dig a shallow grave. They put him in the shallow grave. They start snapping photos of him. They take a cow's stomach and they put it on his head. So it looks like he's got a gunshot wound on his head. They use theater blood and they take these photos and they fake this murder and they send these photos. They fed them, they fed Exit. You have to make it look like it's coming from Mexico. And they fed Exit to be the head of the Hells Angels. And you know, they don't know what to expect at that point. They hoping that they're gonna be accepted. And so the reaction that they get from the Hells Angels is they get hugs and cheers and Jay is suddenly made a full patch member because they've actually fake killed a Mongol. They're cheap rivals. So it was an extraordinary improvisation, extraordinary ruse and they got away with it. And at that point is when, you know, the ATF said, we're done with this investigation. You have a very close call and we don't wanna risk it anymore. You know, I mean, that's good. You became a made member and, you know, case closed. Yeah, it's really interesting in how they were able to sell it in the sense of, first of all, it was smart to do it in Mexico because the Hells Angels, at that point, at least that chapter, they're influenced down there was limited. So it wasn't as easy for them to just verify if this is really happening. But also the idea of pops because I don't wanna give away too much because I want people to read the book. But because he's an older dude, he's having some health issues. The idea that he would go down there and it would go bad and he would get whacked was totally believable. When you're reading the book, you're like, yeah, you would totally believe that because even when he says, Jay says, I'm gonna send pops down there to take care of this guy. Even the Hells Angels are like, really? Pops, are you sure? Are you sure he's the right dude to send out? Is he up to this, right? And so the idea that that would go bad was totally believable, right? And so then they get, and this is what I meant by saying expedite, the process was if they actually carried out an execution, he was certain and it turned out to be true that they would say, okay, we're ready to patch you in. So they shut it down. It's getting too crazy at that point. You can't continue it. Tell us about that. What happens? How many people are charged? What kind of charges walk us through that process? The after process. Sure, so one of the main reasons that they had to shut it down, I mean, there were lots, but one of the main ones is because they had staged this murder with a rival gang member that they were worried now they were actually gonna have an all out biker war. I mean, you can't just have that happen, get patched in and everybody goes on their merry way. So they didn't want a biker war. So that's when the cops came in, the ATF came in, they handcuffed these people, they took them out. And so what happens in the aftermath is there are 16 people that are indicted and they're indicted on RICO and all kinds of charges. And the prosecution is moving forward. And this is interesting because it coincides with, this is sort of a background or PS of what was going on behind the scenes with me because the book is done, the indictments are pending. And I am freaking out because this is a huge investigation. People have put their lives at stake for this, never been done before. And my publisher wants to release the book before these 16 people are gonna be indicted. So I have a huge issue with that. And so I'm pleading with my publisher, you've got to wait. I cannot be the attorney in Arizona that ruins this prosecution. So the morning that the book is supposed to be released, I open up the newspaper and all 16 cases have been dismissed. They've all been dismissed. And they've been dismissed because of problems with confidential informants. So that's sort of like the PS to this where the US attorney's office doesn't want to get involved in this. And so it becomes this crazy horrible aftermath. You know, they risk their lives, they do all of this. They get these kingpins and the whole thing gets dismissed because of the technicality with the confidential informants. So that's where my husband's case comes in. So they realize that these 16 indictments are going down, the book gets released. Now my name is out there. My husband comes home and his name has been outed in a search warrant. So now we realize how horrible this whole thing is because he is handling the asset forfeiture part of the case which has to do with all of the clubhouses. So everything that is seized from the clubhouses is part of his investigation. So that's where the whole thing goes south. And so Jay and his family now, well, Jay first has a target on his head because he's of course outed as a result of this. And he runs into a Hell's Angel in a bar just while these prosecutions are pending and the Hell's Angel says to him, you know, you better watch your back because for the rest of your life, you're gonna be running from the devil. And that's where the title of the book comes from. And so he literally doesn't know what to do. He's on the lam for a couple of weeks before he figures out that, you know, not only is there a target on his head, but now there's a target on his family's head. So they decide they're going to torture his family to get back at Jay. So they don't need Jay, they now need his family. So now he's really concerned about his family safety. So he decides quite brilliantly, I think, to come to hide in plain sight. So he becomes larger than life. He becomes a public figure, you know, he decides, you know, if you're gonna come after me, there's gonna be some barriers here because I'm gonna be a public figure when you do it. But a year after, in 2008, his house gets burned down. And so, you know, it's done in a very, you know, kind of gang style and nobody really ever pins it on the Hell's Angels, but he believes that the Hell's Angels have burned his house down. So it starts this whole lawsuit, Jay then sues the ATF and wins for failing to protect him. So it is really like a whole aftermath, there's a whole another like case after that follows this incredible litigation. Yeah, I mean, Uncle Sam, I'm not just trying to talk shit here, but this case does not go well for Uncle Sam. And I don't know, there's something with the ATF. I mean, I've talked to some FBI and DEA guys. I've only talked to one ATF agent as a source, but I'd be curious to know more about like these sort of massive, like institutional failures. I mean, you think of like Waco back in the 90s and then the Fast and Furious case, gun running that went south and was embarrassing. And then this case, I don't know, I mean, that's sort of beyond the point of our conversation, but it's something that I think about as someone who teaches criminal justice and criminology courses. But yeah, I mean, his position was that the ATF did not have his back, right? Like after he's exposed, they sort of, they seemed to walk away from him. I mean, what do you think that was about? I mean, was that some infighting at the ATF? I mean, what was, did you say like they, some of them thought he was too much of a hotshot or something like that? I mean, what was up with that? Like walking away from him? It's pretty complicated, but I think one of the things, and I think Jay even says this himself, I mean, he did get, they had some wrangling at the end of this investigation where Jay really wanted it to continue. He fought very hard for the investigation to continue. He became a full patch member and he thought that was the whole goal, even though it took 18 months to get there, that was the goal of it. And now he believed he could get a lot of intelligence that way. And so he really thought that the investigation had been cut off too soon. So he had a lot of disagreement with the ATF on that. It wound up getting a lot more involved and complicated than that, which he writes about in his second book, which I can't remember the name of though, catching hell I think is what it's called. But so he covers that whole lawsuit and that whole investigation, but certainly in the beginning of this, they didn't protect him. They didn't protect his family. They just sort of exposed him and hung him out there. I mean, he just risks his life. He did something really extraordinary, but the ATF didn't, they didn't want to be involved in it. They wanted to be removed from that. And then of course, there was a lot of controversy involving the confidential informants that were used. Not pops, but some of the other ones. And so that kind of sent an offshoot for the whole case. So it was just a mess following it. And I think the ATF wanted to distance themselves from it. And consequently, kind of hung him out to dry it. Yeah, I think if I'm not mistaken in your book, you talk about one of the confidential informants was a suspected murderer, right? Like they might have killed someone while they were being a CI, right? I mean, yeah, that can really cause some problems with an investigation. I mean, you think about like what happened in Boston with like Whitey Bolger, right? Like he was like protected by the FBI and he was doing all sorts of horrible, I mean, murder, drug dealing, extortion, you know? So that's definitely not going to look good. Just, and we have a little bit of time left and I definitely want to at least touch upon the last Chicago boss. But one thing I was wondering in your book is, I know I'm backtracking a little bit, but part of his undercover role, Jay's is to convince the outlaws or the Hells Angels that he has these affiliations with the Italian mafia. And there's actually a guy, like a guy that was an actual former mafioso in Vegas who I don't know if he was in witness protection or something, but somehow they get him to play the role of an Italian mafia guy. And Jay introduces him to some of the bikers and they believe it because this guy knows how to present himself as a mafia guy because he actually was a mafia guy. Are you at liberty to say who that was? What, the name of that mafia guy? Do you know who he was in real life? Cause you don't, you just say he was a mafia guy from Jersey, I think, or something like that. Do you know who he was? Just out of curiosity? I do know who he was, but I don't think it'd be a good idea. Okay, all right. Yeah, I mean, who knows? I don't know if he's still out there doing, I don't know. So, okay, that's fair. I was just wondering. I thought that was an interesting part of the story. So we got a little bit of time left and I hope we can have you back again because there's so many other things. You have the other books we'll mention that we probably won't have time to get to, but another big book you have that I read is The Last Chicago Boss. And My Life with the Outlaw, Chicago Outlaws Motorcycle Club with Big Pete James, Peter Big Pete James and Carrie, they co-authored it. How do you transition from writing about the bikers in Arizona, specifically the Hell's Angels and then now you're going to be writing about another outlaw club, which is the Outlaws in Chicago. Right, so the interesting thing that happened since writing Running with the Devil, that was my first book and The Last Chicago Boss was my last outlaw book. So I wrote about the big five with the exception of the Banditos. So I really touched on all of the major biker gangs and every time I approach a book, I wanted to, I remember approaching it from the standpoint of a story. I mean, what is interesting about the story because there are certain commonalities, of course, between all of the biker gangs, but Big Pete's story was particularly interesting to me because he contacted me after reading my other book, Vagos, Mongols and Outlaws, because I featured his clubhouse in there. So there was a big, you know, to-do that happened at his Northside clubhouse. And so he read that book and he was very intrigued that I got the accuracy of that clubhouse and the Outlaws down. I mean, that was his baby. So he contacted me and said, I'd like to tell you my story. I'll tell you the real story. And so Big Pete contacted me to write his story and at the time, he was dying. He had terminal kidney cancer and he asked, he's still alive. Yeah, I thought so. I thought so. And so the interesting thing about him is he's really considered the godfather of the Chicago Outlaws. He was considered the godfather. And that's a whole nother interesting point is there is this sort of hierarchy between the mafia and the outlaw motorcycle gangs who are the mafia on wheels, but there's sort of a, there's a tear, there's a layer there. So he was considered the godfather of the Chicago Outlaws. And his book is really about his rise to fame in the Chicago Outlaws, but he didn't start out wanting to be the godfather of the Outlaws. He always wanted to be the boss of Chicago. From the time he was seven years old, he wanted to be the boss of Chicago. And the outlaw motorcycle gang became that vehicle. We came a vehicle for him to do that. So he was completely, it goes against the mold of anybody who ever joins these outlaw gangs. He was college educated. He was, he's married to an IT person in an tech world. He just doesn't fit the mold at all. But what was fascinating to me about this book is that he grew up in a family that was incredibly intelligent. And he was incredibly intelligent. I would call him cunning, cunning, calculated, very intelligent. And he just needed a way in, a way in to become the boss of Chicago. And his family loved to play board games, which is also kind of interesting because I don't know too many people that still do that, but he played a lot of risk and monopoly and go. And he learned all about acquiring territories. And he's all about real estate, taking over the territories of things. So when he wound up joining the outlaws, there's a long story to it. But when he wound up, it was in the nineties. And the nineties was like the heyday of the outlaws. I mean, they were at war with the Hells Angels and they were doing all kinds of crazy things. That's when Taco Bowman, who was the international president was there. So his rise to fame was really kind of involved. It was long and involved, but he always had his eye toward acquiring territory. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting you mentioned the, being the boss, because you talk about this in your book, like there's always this mystique in Chicago of like El Capone and things like that. But my sense is that Peter Big Pete, he fancies himself to Michael Corleone of the outlaw biker world, right? I mean, but literally that's what he says, right? He not only does he reads the books, the Mario Puzo novels, right? The films, but also his pedigree is different. Like, yeah, he is an educated dude, comes from a more stable background and he's very bright. And it's interesting that this idea of does art imitate life or the other way, whatever. But he's very conscious of like, he's the Michael Corleone of the biker world. I just think that's interesting if you want to comment on that. Yeah, it's sort of like, I mean, I don't know if I would go so far as to say he's almost made him create a biker world, but in a sense he is. I mean, he's using them. He's doing these extraordinary things that he's, I think he was the first person for, I mean, it's his rise to it. First of all, he's a college grad. He becomes the head of his fraternity. He becomes a loyal order of the moose, which I didn't even know what that was when I first ran, I didn't even know what a moose was. He rises to power there and realizes that that can be a vehicle to create his own club, like a prototype club. So he creates his own prototype club, which is, forget what it's called, the royal order. And he becomes the head of that. So then he learns that because he's created his prototype club in very similar fashion to what Jay Dobbins did, which I think is so interesting. The two bucks kind of mirror each other in that way. He creates a fake club to convince himself that he's worthy of joining the outlaws. So royal order is his club, then he joins the outlaws. But so he becomes sort of the CEO of this criminal organization. And you kind of get the sense that if he didn't choose a criminal syndicate, he could have been the CEO of a huge corporation. He could have been a partner in a law firm. He could have been the head of anything, really. So he then, in fact, he thinks, he talks about it at one point, he could have been a televangelist. He could have been anything that involved selling something to people. So I think in a strange way, it was sort of, he was toying with them. He was kind of exploiting the vehicle by which to get to be the boss. So that's what I think fascinated me about this book is that everything he did was very calculated and coming. There was a confederation of clubs where it's all the clubs joining together. So you have the African American clubs, the Hispanic clubs, the street clubs, all of these clubs coming together in one place. And he appoints a female secretary. Well, women are not highly regarded in the motorcycle world, but he gives them that power. So he does everything that is opposite of what the club is, what the roots of the club are. So it's kind of fascinating what he does with that. Yeah, you really get the sense from your book that he's a politician, right? And the way he's able to form coalitions, so like in running with the devil, some of the other Hell's Angels guys, they say, yeah, we knew some Italian mafia guys, maybe the joint or something, and I've worked with them a little bit. But in the last Chicago boss, the Outlaws Club, it's not something like just, oh, maybe kind of, like it's an actual alliance that they have with the Italians, joint criminal enterprises working together. And then as you point out other ethnic biker clubs, so he really strikes me as like this diplomat kind of politician, and it's just really extraordinary when you think about someone in the gangland who has those kinds of skills. Yeah, he is really one of a kind. I mean, he did, he had this very symbiotic relationship with the mafia, the Outlaws are notoriously the foot soldiers of the mob. And he took that to a whole new level. And he also developed these extraordinary partnerships with law enforcement, which I always like to call the thin blue line, you know? Like where exactly does that line cross? Because, you know, he would have, he had this phrase where there were cops that were good to him and cops that were good for him. So, you know, the cops needed the Outlaws there to keep away the other riffraff. And the Outlaws needed the cops to kind of look the other way when they did their dealing. So they sort of had this stranger relationship. And the same thing was true with the mafia. So that's why the Chicago Outlaws were so fascinating to me, because it really, they had to work in partnership with a lot of these other organized crime syndicates. Yeah, so did he talk about, I don't think this is in the book, but I can't remember. Does he talk about the Detroit Outlaws at all? Did he, or did he just even privately discuss with you like, this just because we broadcast here from Detroit. So I'm just curious. I know there's an Outlaw chapter here. Did that ever come up with him? Your discussions with him? You know, it did. And the interesting thing is the Outlaws have regions and he was in charge of the white region. And so he did talk about that. And one of the things that he was very clear about is he wanted to always make sure that whatever we talked about, whatever we wrote about was gonna be true for the Chicago Outlaws. Yeah, sure. So I don't know how different it is in other regions, but he did point out that there were differences. And so, I'm gonna trust that he knows what those are. But it did pass over a little bit in the book with the death of Hojo, who was part of the red region of the Outlaws. And so he was not in the Chicago area or not in the Detroit area. That was a Virginia Outlaw. So they do have some differences and I don't know exactly what those are. I mean, I think what he was mostly, and I don't even know if poking fun is really the right way of saying it, but I think he was very disappointed in how rule-abiding the Outlaws were, the ones that he was dealing with. He got into the Outlaws to be a rebel, to be a non-conformist, and to have a cause. So when he joined it, they had a cause. They were at war with the Hells Angels. And so their whole goal was to acquire territory and keep the Hells Angels out of Chicago. So by the time he's in the last years of him being the boss, by the time he reaches that status, the Outlaws have sort of lost their purpose. The Hells Angels are already in Chicago. They're not at war. There isn't anything that is generating this drive or this motivation for them to be the real rebels that he remembered them as. Instead, they were very rule-abiding. They had an extensive constitution. They had all kinds of bylaws and laws and I think that a lot of the chapters, I mean, that's probably what's common in a lot of the chapters, probably all along the East Coast, not just exclusive to Chicago. But so I think that was disappointing to him. And I think in a lot of ways, he was wishing that the Outlaws would just be a little bit more rebellious. There's a funny scene in the book where the Outlaws, I guess, an important distinction from the Hells Angels that Jay was involved with, the Outlaws had day jobs. I mean, they had like, they went to work by day and by night they were Outlaws. And so a lot of times Pete would organize these runs and runs was just another word for a meeting. I mean, they're a party. You know, these were get-togethers, which would be the equivalent of like, business networking for us. But he would organize these things and his Outlaws would come to him and say, do you think I could skip this weekend? You know, can I, it's Valentine's Day. I wanna spend it with my, you know, my old lady. And he would get very frustrated with that. You know, he'd say, are you an Outlaw or are you like a part-time Outlaw? You know? When he wasn't in his mold of what an Outlaw should be, so I thought it was hilarious. So I think a lot of what, so I think Pete actually was kind of bored in some respects from this. You know, he's a very intelligent guy. He was a little bit disappointed or disillusioned by what was happening with his group or his chapter. And so he at one point invented a fake group. He invented the Cosmic Writers, you know, and that was sort of, he took a hiatus from the Outlaws and he spent like four days holed up in his house and kind of invented this club and recruited a lot of people. In this club he developed patches for them, constitution, bylaws. He developed all of this and it was all fake. And then he realized that people that he was recruiting because he recruited a lot of people and he made a lot of money out of this. And it was crazy and spent four days. So then he realized that these people wanted to meet people, members of the Cosmic Writers. So he then had to recruit another sort of puppet club from the Outlaws of Black Pistons to come in and pose as the Cosmic Writers. So he was always involved in some kind of, you know, I don't know, like theater within theater kind of. So in that respect it was similar to what the infiltrators were doing in the Hell's Angels, it was interesting. Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing, the parallel because in the Arizona case, they're supposed to be the solo angels. And this comes up a lot is people asking, you know, why do I only see like two or three, maybe four of you guys? Like if you're a club, they presumably are more, and this gets back to the budget stuff, right? The ATF is saying, we don't care. This is all we can give you, are these many operatives? So Jay had to keep on coming up with these like reasons as to why you only see two or three of us. And a similar thing in the Chicago case study too, right? Eventually people, you know, it doesn't take long before people are like, if this is supposedly an outlaw biker club, how come there's only one or two people, right? So you see how to get creative to explain that away. Yeah, it's fascinating that the anthropology of biker culture that at the macro level, they are renegades and outlaws, but then at the micro level, right? In a lot of ways, right? This fixation on rules and hierarchy and very strict enforcement of these bylaws and things like that. It really is an interesting juxtaposition between their macro level behavior, which is renegade, which is outlaw, but in their own world, not so much. Yeah, that's fascinating. Well, that's fascinating to me for all the books that I've written on that. Without a hierarchy or structure, then you have anarchy, right? So even in the prison systems, there's a hierarchy. So everywhere you go, like the police force there's a hierarchy, scouting, there's a hierarchy. It just struck me as so pronounced in Pete's book because of all of the organizations. He was in the fraternity, which has a hierarchy and the loyal order of the moose. So they all are these rule-abiding people because they know without that they're gonna have anarchy. And I thought just some of the hilarious moments in the book, at least for me, where they're having meetings. They always seem to have meetings, to have a meeting, to have a committee, have a meeting and to appoint people to their meetings. And pretty soon it's like- It's like a real job. Yeah. Yeah, it's hilarious. I mean, they don't get anything done and it reminds me so much of COVID America. And that's- Right, that's great. Another thing that's interesting in the Chicago book I find is when I talk to my students, I teach a gangs and organized crime course. And if we're talking specifically about the Outlaw Biker Clubs, and they're asking me about the individuals who are members and criminality. And the way I explain it to them, and you're an expert, so correct me if I'm wrong, is that, well, there's a spectrum. Like, they're not all like doing the same thing. Like there are some guys who are sort of what you're talking about are like, yeah, maybe they're hellraisers on the weekend and they're tough guys, don't get me wrong. But in a lot of other ways, they lead very conventional lives, have a day job, family, things like that. And then on the other end of the spectrum, you have some straight up gangsters. You have some straight up, like all the bikers who are just, they're straight up gangsta. And so there's a spectrum, like it depends. Like, I don't think you can just say every Outlaw Biker is this or that. It really depends on the personality of that club and the people in there. Would you say that that's true? Yeah, I would definitely say that's true. It's kind of a fascination of the whole thing. And there are so many different reasons for why people wanna join too, which is kind of interesting. Yeah, I mean, I don't understand it. The thing that fascinates me so much about this is that there are police officers, and I think I touched on this in the book too, that really wanna emulate the bikers that they're arresting. I mean, they go out, they get the tattoos, they get the, they do the bike runs, and there are police clubs, they call them biker clubs, but sometimes that crosses the line. I mean, there really are police officers that seem to get a little too involved in that world and vice versa. So it's just kind of an interesting crossover. No, I know that this is an issue with, I would say it's becoming a problem is in the military as well. A lot of outlaw biker guys are active duty military guys. And you get into questions of where does they're, you know, are they devoted to protecting the Constitution? Like you're supposed to be in their services, or is your first priority to the club? And so I think this is a problem. And I think DOD thinks it's a problem too. I think they're not doing very much about it, and there's all sorts of political reasons why not, and they don't like to admit it, but if you look at their internal documentation, I think there's people in the Department of Defense who recognize this is a major challenge. How many outlaw bikers are active military personnel? I don't know if that was something you encountered in your research. I mean, you've done enough research, I'm sure that's something you're aware of. Yeah, no, it is, it's a major challenge, and it's just an ongoing debate, and that's that whole fine line whether you're gonna call them a club or a gang, right? I mean, the police biker club, and then the outlaw motorcycle gang, they call themselves a club. So it's, that's exactly the argument. What are they committing crimes? Is it a criminal syndicate? Are they just out enjoying motorcycle? Are they just enthusiastic? And then you've got the whole pressure of American Motorcycle Association, which is, this is big pastime for people to go out on motorcycle runs. And so it definitely does pose some challenges, I think, for law enforcement. Yeah, and the reason why I use the term club, I mean, I know it's semantics, but, and you know more about it than I do, but I'm not convinced, not that I'm a defense attorney, but I'm not convinced that, you know, Uncle Sam's argument that outlaw bikers are the same thing as the mafia, but just on motorcycles. I'm not sure that that's true. Again, I think it depends on, I think it depends on the club, like sub-clubs are gangs. It is organized crime, but not necessarily. So that's why I use the term club. I just feel some attempt at due process here for, because, you know, I think you have this, this parrot, or what's the way I wanna view, I think that the hegemonic viewpoint of law enforcement right now, at least that the DOJ, is outlaw bikers equal organized crime. And I'm not convinced that that's necessarily true. I think there are definitely outlaw bikers and clubs that are involved in organized crime, 100%, that's well established, well documented. But I'm not sure that's the same thing as like, if you're in the mafia, you are by definition a gangster, right? Like, there's really no spectrum with, with Italian mafia, but like you're, I mean, some guys are obviously more violent than others and things like that. But by definition, I think you are part of a criminal conspiracy. And I'm not sure that's the same case with the bikers. Any thoughts on that? Like sort of a criminological level? Well, I mean, that is the argument. That's the quintessential argument and why it's been so difficult to prosecute. It's very difficult to prosecute. In the Vago book I wrote, they were able to get indictments and prosecutions and convictions. And that was one of the very rare cases that it happened. But, yeah, I mean, I think for, the way that I look at it is if, you have to look at the motivation of, why this group is coming together. And there are certainly lots of clubs out there that are not outlaw gangs. So that's the distinction. If the goal is to acquire territory, to get money, you know, to do, I mean, it's really the goal of any gang really is to, you know, monopolize a territory and to do it through any means. And usually it's through gun running or drugs or, you know, some kind of racketeering. And so that's the definition of why they're organized crime syndicates. But, you know, are there members in there that are not involved in that? I don't know. I mean, that's sort of the question, right? I mean, I'm just on screen. So I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna, you know, but I think I've seen enough. And here's an interesting point too. I mean, you know, a lot of the people, the big wigs in these clubs slash gangs, they don't actually commit the crimes. They send out their henchmen, right? So that is, that's the problem too. And how do you trace that back? So, you know, Pete, for example, had a lot of people working for him, under him around him, you know? And so did the mob who hired a lot of people to be their foot soldiers and work for them. So that's part of the challenge, I think, in working with these syndicates, right? I mean, so where, how do you catch them? How do you catch them in the act of doing the deed that they're doing? And that's why, you know, in the Vago book, there was actually a confession to a gangland murder. So that's how they got that person on murder charges and we go, so there's, so that's the challenge, I think, in any of these criminal prosecutions is how do you link it? How do you create it? Cause it's all very, you know, under the table. Yeah, that's the exact point of Rico is even if you're not pulling the trigger, but you're A, giving the order and B, profiting from these criminal activities, then you are a gangster and you're part of a criminal conspiracy. And which, until Rico, right? It was very difficult to go after like the Italians because usually at least the higher ranking guys contract out the street level criminal activities. And you read that same thing in your book, right, the hierarchy of the Hells Angels and the Outlaws do the same thing, right? Once you reach a certain status, you're not getting your hands dirty, right, right. So you have, but if you are still profiting from those rackets and giving orders, then you can be indicted under Rico. So we're almost out of time, but just mention, promote your other books because I know these are the two that I've read, but as you mentioned, you have two, at least two other books that I'm aware of that I need to read. You wanna plug those before we sign off? Yeah, sure, thank you. Bagos, Mongols and Outlaws is, it's exactly what the title says. It's an infiltration by an undercover informant. And it was made into a television show called Gangland Undercover. So if you don't wanna read the book, you can watch the show. I remember. And then the other one I wrote was the Prodigal Father Pagan Son and it's about the Pagan motorcycle gang. And that one's probably my favorite of all of them. Yeah, I'm looking forward to reading that because, you know, they're in the news right now. Like that's the hot club. If you're a person who researches these things or a journalist or even in law enforcement, if you study these things and follow these things, they're in the news right now. I don't know if you've been tracking that, but on the East Coast, they're really making a push for, like you said, more territory, expanding their rackets, things like that. Yeah, I mean, they're part of the Big Five and I think that they've sort of been, they haven't been as front row center as a lot of the other gangs. But I found them, I mean, there are differences between all of them and there are lots of similarities, obviously, but there are definite differences for each one of the ones that I've written about. And that one was pretty fascinating. That story was pretty fascinating. So each one of them takes it from a different angle. That one takes it from a person who was born into the family and his father was the head of the Pagans. So it's really interesting that, it's not an infiltration case, it's his life in that world. Yeah, that's actually more of a parallel with the Italian mafia as well, because we know that that's the case, not always, but in some cases, you are born into it, right? Like sometimes it goes back generations. So that's interesting to see a case study like that with, in this case, the outlaw bikers. So you want to mention your website? People can find out more information about you, your projects, your books, things like that. Sure, thank you. My website is just my name, CariDrobin.com, and I have my latest book, my new book, that's coming out next summer, is on the, it's not even on bikers at all, it's a total segue, and it's on the Aurora Colorado Mass Shooting. So I wrote about that mass shooting case and the psychiatrist who treated him. Wow, I think my students will be interested in that. A lot of my students are, my specialization is gangs and organized crime, but a lot of my students, they're more interested in serial killers and mass shooters, and I joke around with them at my dark sense of humor. I'm like, what's wrong with gangsters and outlaws? Can't you read these horrible examples? Like, I just think, I don't know, I was getting the spectrum of like, I get it, violence is wrong no matter what, but so I think that'll be a popular, I think that'll be a popular book, I hope so. So, well thank you very much for joining us. I really would like to have you back on, because I wanna talk about your other books, and there's even some things with these two books that I didn't get to, so I really appreciate your time. Any last other plugs you wanna throw out there before we sign off? No, just thank you very much for having me, and I too am very interested in organized crime, obviously, I've spent a lot of years doing it, and I find it fascinating on a lot of levels. I think it mirrors a lot of some of the issues that are very relevant to, you know, our own culture, so it's very interesting. Well, I agree, thanks again so much, we really appreciate your time. For those of you listening or watching, make sure you like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, eventually we're going to get presents on Instagram, have these videos up on YouTube, so Carrie Drobben, thank you so much. People go out there, buy her books, OG podcast, we'll see you next time, thank you.