 Aloha, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. You can go to love in France, but you cannot become a Frenchman. You can go to love in Germany or Turkey or Japan, but you cannot become a German, a Turk, or Japanese. But anywhere from any corner of the Earth can come to love in America and become an American. Welcome back to A Nation of Immigrants, a new talk show program featuring the lives of immigrants, knowledge, diversity, and inclusion. Brought to you by Sintank Hawaii and the Kingsfield Law Office. We invite renowned immigrants to discuss their life stories, immigration adventures, and the contribution to cultural diversity. Today's guest is our good friend, Martin Hederman, automation consultant and rolling coach, a dual citizen of United Kingdom and United States. An R&D expert in automation and machine learning, Martin Hederman had been working with business units and process automation development teams to deliver efficiencies and advanced analytics using the latest robotic process automation and machine learning tools. Martin is also a college rolling crew coach. He started coaching Oxford University Bomb School during summer eighth week, but after completing a British rolling coaching program focused on 2,000 meters multi-layer racing, Martin Hederman is a graduate from North England, Trent University, and has spent four seasons with the Great Britain Lightweight Team and the GBR Olympic hand coach, Mark Lees. Martin moved to Minnesota in 2001 and founded the Blake Elmer Rolling Club. Today he's a college rolling coach at the University of Minnesota. Welcome back, Marty. Thanks, John. Great to be here. Yeah, you've been come to our show a couple of times, but today we're going to talk about you. And of course, obviously, we talked about you as parties in the previous episode, but today we're going to focus on you. You are dual citizen of the United Kingdom and United States. But in the Americans view, you are forever a British. So this is a better situation than my situation because I'm forever a Chinese in the Americans view. And even worse, my American friends think I'm too Chinese to be American and my Chinese friends think I'm too American to be Chinese. But I do want to ask you the question about the reverse culture shock. You recently spent a few months in the last year or this year spent a couple of months in the UK. And do you feel something different? Yeah, so I think there is a special relationship between the UK and the US. As you can hear, my accent has been stubbornly British for as long as we've known each other. But when I went back to London this year, I was there for three months. Apparently there are certain words that I say which clearly call out my American location. The English ear is not sophisticated enough to tell the difference between East Coast, West Coast, the Deep South or the Midwest. They just say I'm an American. So that's what happened on this trip. I was called out a couple of times. Have you spent time in America? Actually, yes, I've been there 20 odd years. So the accent gives it away for sure. Okay, well, I want to share with you my favorite quote from Yunwen, the first Chinese students to graduate from American University. He stated at the beginning of his autobiography, would it not be exchanged if an accidental education continually exemplified by an Occidental civilization had not rid upon an Oriental such a metamorphosis in his inward nature as to make him feel and act as though he were a being coming from a different world when he confronted one so diametrically different. Did you feel the reverse cultural shock when you interact with your fellow British? I did, but it was a continuation of the conversations I've had over the last 25 years working for global organizations like Thompson Reuters and 3M in particular, where there are three categories of people who I come across in daily life. There's obviously the Americans that pick up on my British accent, my British background. There's the British who pick up on the American side of it. And then there's a very interesting third category, which there's an awful lot of dual citizens in both countries, American with British backgrounds, British with American backgrounds. And there's more than you realize. And when I'm in a conversation with them, there's almost this sort of knowing look where the conversation turns very quickly to how do you feel either being part of the global village, not really coming from anywhere or particularly for Anglo-Americans, where is home? This conversation I've had at many airports, sitting alongside other dual citizens on long flights. And over the years, that conversation has changed to, oh, that's interesting to hang on. I'm not sure where home is. But I'd say just to answer your question, I think you have to create your own sense of home. Whether that's in the UK or the US, you have to make a decision where is your family going to say that it comes from in subsequent years? So there's my daughter and son-in-law tell their story. Who do they say I am? And so I try to encourage them by telling my story that I'm from the Midwest, but with roots in the UK. So I feel quite strongly about my 20 years spent in St. Paul, Minnesota, and who it's allowed me to become over the last two decades. So it's a long way to answer your question, but I'd say it's about taking control and defining yourself on how you answer that question. From what viewpoint? Very well said. Where is home is a deceptively simple, but it's creatively profound question for people like us. But you once said you don't feel English. Could you elaborate? It's a bit more complicated. So I'll give you the sort of Cliff Notes version. So my father was from the North Coast of Ireland. It's an area called Ulster. Now technically it's part of the United Kingdom, but my family that are still there have a very thick Irish accent. It's an Ulster accent, but it's undeniably Irish. And so when he moved to London in the 60s before he met my mother, he felt there was, he was gonna have to change his accent. So he took Elocution lessons to allow him to apply for jobs and be considered as an equal candidate. And so I grew up feeling that we weren't really an English family. We had strong roots in Northern Ireland, even though I sounded English. All of my wider family members were from the farming community in Ulster that we would visit every summer and loved it, loved that experience. So when you go to school, particularly in London, it's a very, it is racist. If you're different, you kind of get picked on. While I didn't look like I was from a different country, people started to realize my family was Irish. There was certainly negative sentiments around that fact. So I never really felt I was part of what you described as being born and being brought up in England. So it was very easy for me to leave the UK, for example, in 2001, because I didn't really feel I was leaving anything behind. Thank you for sharing that. Just to tell you a little bit about myself, I thought I was 100% Han Chinese until I did the DNA testing, 23 and a mean. And then the results showed me that I'm like from the five, six different ethnic groups. And I will get a chance to do the DNA testing. No, I haven't, no. What did you find? I can only disclose here on air that I'm not 100% Chinese. And I have a pretty solid connection with many ethnic groups all over the world. And I know I feel pretty proud of it. But anyway, back to your story, Marty, and just tell us how you settled in Minnesota. And we want to hear your immigration adventure. Yeah, so I'll keep this real short because I'm 60 next weekend. So, you know, I've lived a lot of years. So I'd say I've had four phases. Certainly growing up going to school, high school in London was important for me, particularly as I wasn't a particularly gifted student. I was below average in everything. And so things really changed for me when I went to university and I discovered the sport of rowing and became a student athlete. That was a big change in terms of developing a work ethic and competing, particularly at the national level and international level. I went through a huge change in personality from the age of 19 to 23, 24. And then after my time as an athlete ended, I was picked up more or less straight away by a great company, Thomson Reuters. And I worked for Thomson Reuters for 28 years. And I just had so many great opportunities come my way that I always grabbed and developed and was mentored, very important to know how to work through difficult work situations. I was mentored every step of the way and it was through Thomson Reuters that I was introduced first of all to the US as a country but also as a trading partner, as a collaborating entity with the UK, very strong transatlantic teams I was on for at least 10 years. And then when the opportunity came to work in St. Paul, Minnesota, I grabbed that opportunity, loved my time on the project team. I loved St. Paul, Minnesota as a visitor first. And then when there was an opportunity for the company to sponsor my green card, I grabbed that too. And then after I think five years, I pursued the naturalization process. Again, every step sponsored by Thomson Reuters. So I'm hugely grateful to that company along that journey. As you know, it's not an easy path to trade. Thank you. Of course, we are all grateful and I'm particularly grateful. I met you at Thomson Reuters. That's right. And how many years did it take for you to get a green card? I know the naturalization. It was a little bit of a hiccup because I was offered an opportunity to work as an expat, as an American expat. Even though I was technically British, there was an opportunity for four years to spend in Switzerland working with software development part of Thomson Reuters. And when I came back, the USCIS rejected my application saying that I'd taken four years break from paying taxes. And so I had to start the entire process again. And you know me, Chung, I can be argumentative sometimes and I challenged them back to prove that I had not paid taxes since I was armed with every single tax admission for 10 years. And so they weren't able, I'm sure this doesn't work today, that level of interaction with your case officer. I'm sure it's all remote now, but we were sitting across the desk at each other and I showed him, well, show me which year specifically I didn't pay taxes. And he wasn't able to continue with the rejection. He said, oh, well, if you've paid taxes, then you of course you're able to continue. And he hand wrote on a red byro, red pen, on my rejection letter to say administrative mistake, our error, the USCIS error, I'm proving this case to move forward. So it didn't take any longer, but there was an interesting two month period where the USCIS had to review my case again and then I proceeded with the, so I think it took five years for the green card and another three years, was it? I think so eight years in total to become naturalized and to graduate from the ceremony. It's an amazing story. And which year, the story you mentioned, your face to face with USCIS? Yeah, 2012, so I've been back from Switzerland a couple of years and then I graduated from the ceremony in 2013. One of the most emotional moments of my life actually was listening to a prerecorded message from Barack Obama. And it affected me more than I realized. I was expecting it to be prerecorded, of course. You're not gonna get a personal attendance from Barack, but he obviously had put a lot of time and thought into how difficult it is for immigrants to go through the process and he spent a lot of time talking about our own personal journeys and what we had to go through to get to this moment. And now we had made it. Here were his expectations from us as citizens and he spent a lot of time talking about how important immigrants were to the American dream and particularly the voting system. And it really got me actually. I was, it took a couple of weeks for me to think through all those messages and realized, it was a huge cultural change I'd made and I was gonna be a good American. And I believed it and I still believe it. And I think I would have got there anyway, but Barack Obama spelling it out, it certainly accelerated the thought process. It's moving to hear that you were moved by President Obama's welcome speech to new citizens. I didn't have a chance to listen to the president's welcome speech at the National Education Ceremony because that was entered on the top and either he didn't bother to record a message nor the presiding judge didn't bother to play it. But anyway, you become American, what exactly mean to become American? And I remember one of my favorite TV anchor mentioned that America is a narrative, it's a story. It's not ethnic group, it's not, we don't share the same history, same ethnic roots, but we do share the same belief in one document, the US Constitution. And you said you are a big supporter of the Constitution. It's planned there to me. Yeah, if you've got, this is a two-minute story. In 1994, I was sent to Washington, DC by Thompson Reuters, I was a product developer, launching a new product in the North American market, US and Canada, and our sales and marketing group were in Washington, DC. And I'd never been to the US before and I was prepped by some Americans I worked with to go to some of the monuments, maybe even get into the White House. They had a special location to report to. You didn't have to apply before, you just go to a particular office, say you're from another country and they would take you a walk around the White House. So as a joke, they gave me, this is my American colleagues and I have it here, the pocket-sized book of the Constitution, it was really meant as a joke, you're going to America, you'll need the Constitution to get in, that sort of thing. And beyond the flight over there, I did read it and I was struck by the principles behind it. And remember, there's no equivalent in the UK. So we were brought up to believe we were citizens and this is very young age that the Queen was paramount to society, the legal system very much reports to Her Majesty's government, not a separate branch of government, it's very much connected to the legal process and the Queen or the Royal Family signing off on. So it's a slightly different system, even though the American law is based on English common law, but the Constitution was the first time I kind of understood the concept of checks and balances. So I decided to go along to the White House as my first stop after work. And I beautifully lined up in this line and I was quite respectful of the Constitution and being in the US. So I wore a gray suit, I wore a white shirt and a tie, if I was going to go to the White House I wanted to show my respect. And I joined this line of tourists who were not in suits. There was a lot of shorts and t-shirts and I felt totally overdressed. And while I was waiting in this long line for foreigners to view the White House, I noticed another line forming in parallel, a shorter one, but they were all in national dress and these were Native Americans. So, you know, resplendent in their Native colors and the various paraphernalia that was very well put together. And I thought, you know, I'm just going to join the other line. I feel more comfortable, even though obviously I look very different. You know, here's a group of people who respect where they are. I feel more comfortable in that line. So I joined the other line. It was just a little bit shorter, not much shorter, but I noticed that there were a lot of other people in gray suits at the front of the line and they undid the barrier and let this line in first. And I thought, I lucked out here. So I proceeded to follow this group into the White House. We went into one of the main halls and it was an anti-chamber or an anti-room for, you know, with seats. And clearly, okay, we're just going to be briefed or something. So I'm sitting with all these Native Americans and talking with them. Just, you know, I was listening to where they were from. They were intrigued that I was from the UK. So there was a lot of banter, a lot of fun. And then one of the other gray suited guys said, President Bill Clinton will be in to see you in five minutes. And I thought, whoa, this is unusual. I wonder if Bill Clinton does this. No, he can't do this with every group. So it twigged very quickly that I'd actually joined the wrong line and I joined a group of Native Indians who really had come to see the president. And I was in two minds. Do I keep my mouth shut and have the experience of a lifetime? And because I'd read the constitution, I thought, you know, that's not within the spirit of what America is about. You know, I'm sure there's plenty of people certainly from where I come from and on the east side of London that would have, you know, under false pretenses would have just let things unfold. But I felt inspired actually by the constitution. No, I'm in the wrong place. I need to tell these guys who are clearly secret service that I mean, I've come to the wrong place. And so I did. I quickly went over to one of the secret service guys that I don't think I'm supposed to be here. And now this was before 9-11, right? So, you know, they saw the funny side of it and they quickly took me to the other line. But the thing about that moment, that experience was how open potentially it is in America to meet the highest officials of the governing branches, whether that be the legal system or, you know, obviously the executive branch. And I'd been in the UK to similar meetings with the Queen. I'd met the Queen, the Royal Family. I'd met senior judges, but it was much more difficult and took, you know, weeks and months of planning and background checks. And I was just taken not so much by the lack of security, obviously, but the principle that the President of the United States would meet with a party from, you know, that particular part of American society. And it's not the first time I've heard this message or this practice. So, you know, to answer your question, that was a big change for me, the openness of the United States across all stratas of society compared to my, you know, limited social maneuvering in the UK, even though I did go up and down that hierarchy into the upper classes a couple of times. But it was very, you know, on the UK side, it was very uncomfortable. You know, never felt I belonged there. Always felt comfortable in meetings in the US with high-ranking officials. Anyway, that's my short-hand story of why one of the biggest difference, I think, between the US and the UK. It's a wonderful story. Thank you so much for sharing and to talk about the constitution and the same, you know, I have a slightly different angle, but probably the same impression, you know, for both of us. You know, when I started law school and the constitution, and I feel so puzzled by the professor, keep asking the question, can the government do this under the constitution? Can the legislate do this under the constitution? And I was so confused, I thought, I thought that law is tell the citizen what to do, not tell the government what to do. And I think this is exactly the same feeling and it's a, you know, a systematic change from what we used to, you know, hierarchy, you know, inequality. And this is a much bigger topic and one that I think you engage with really well, Chung, is the framework of interpretation. And I'm just gonna use that two-word phrase that means so many things. It's not codal law, you know, there are, of course, you know, regulations which have numbers and limits, but I think the constitution is more about setting up a framework which lives, you know, literally hundreds of years and the Supreme Court can interpret it in terms of the benefit of the pursuit of, you know, happy, well, you've forgotten the language now, but you know what I'm trying to say. And it's the interpretation of the law which is so strong in the U.S. rather than a codal system. And I feel comfortable with that. You know, I think, you know, the legal profession is a good working infrastructure of interpreting laws depending on what the plaintiff or the defendant is trying to do as an individual. So, yeah, I'm very, very impressed. Thank you so much. We are running out of time, but we do want you to make recommendations. And is there anything you would like in a book movie or would like to recommend it to our audience to watch and to enjoy? So I'm a huge, so I've spent a lot of time working at Thompson Reuters and as a consultant. And I would propose that the, as much as there is a lot of negative press with Facebook and their pursuit of the metaverse, I was part of those early internet years and it really hasn't in the late 80s and the early 90s. And the level of skepticism with the metaverse which maybe warrants another program for you is the, it's another seismic shift in the use of data within people's lives. And I'm a huge proponent of what Facebook are trying to do and others like Tesla are trying to do with data to blend the virtual world with the real world. So there is a book, there is a couple of authors who are thinking beyond where we are today, which is the beginning into how do we, how do we as individuals work seamlessly within the virtual and the real world and where is our privacy really going to be protected in this world? And I'll leave it like that. It's a fascinating era we're about to move into. And if I was still working in a, if I wanted to work, I would definitely refocus my attention to the metaverse because I think it's gonna be very exciting over the next five to 10 years. I will send you the link after this. That was good. Thank you so much. Thank you. That sounds very exciting. Well, we are running out of time, but we look forward to welcoming you back to continue to share your wisdom and insights. A nation of immigrants, Martin Hedman, automation consultant and the rolling coach. Thank you so much, Martin. Thanks so much, Sean. Thank you. Thank you. Aloha.