 A state performance officer, Joe, you were recruited early this morning? Yeah, so Sue should be here around 2 or 2.30, consistent with the agenda. I sent it to her. I didn't hear back from her for a second time, but we did make sure she had the agenda and she said she could be here. Okay. So this kind of added to the agenda because there was an article in Digger about a meeting of one of our legislative committees. And in it was a reference to the fact that there wasn't good coverage of technology in safety element and something needed to be done about it. And of course we're discussing exactly that same subject here. So it made sense to try to interact with them as to what people coming up with. Yeah, I heard just some jokes laying in the market. Her initial reaction was they were sort of focusing on IT-related type of committees. And so she wasn't sure it was directly relevant, but I think it was still good to talk to her because there's also just this big push at the state level, you know, about looking at sheer responsibilities. Like in our case there's some health agencies that do transit and we do transit and should we just, you know, consolidate. And so I think it's just a smart thing to do to check on her anyway. Okay. So I don't think that will do to three. Then a representative from the dry physical committee is coming in coming up three and that's because of one of the things that's in the law of what we're supposed to do. So let me turn to that subject. First of all, I'm going to send a public comment. We have non-public members as far as I know, the only thing. But we do have a worker covering us again. As I recall, work is a video program in this public access video station in this county. Yeah, for what? Okay. So public comment goes by quickly. And so let me go over here. Now I sent this around. But Brian, we made paper copies. So thank you. You can find the elements that I reported. Section 1-H of the law that created us. And it passed at the end, whether it worked as they had. Now you might have thought that that would be the only place that it says what we're supposed to do. But I think Brian Chain made the observation that this thing had gotten massaged as it went through committees a bit. And the result is that some things that look close to being requirements are elsewhere. And so I just want to make sure that we at least look at them and know what we have. And see what we think about what we need to do. The five kind of got provided up at the last meeting of mine. So we'll talk about that when we get to the report. But some of these others are going to talk about. So the first thing, I mentioned the law carefully. In A2 states the purpose of the task force and it includes action that is not just purpose. Make recommendations on the responsible growth of the non-surverging technology partners. I have to admit to you, I don't know what that is. It means particularly. So that caught my attention. We used ratification intelligence in state government. And the difference between that and the rest of the requirements as the title of the use of ratification intelligence generally, not specifically in state government. And then state regulation ratification intelligence field. That is in the fourth, no, it's third of the five that are about as you will see. I had a couple of observations, but we should discuss it. The first part can be seen as a risk statement of four. If you look at the proposal for the responsible and ethical development of ratification intelligence in the state, including an identification of potential risks and benefits of such development. Now when we had a discussion of this at the last meeting, we talked about ethics as for being somewhat of a regulatory requirement. You could look at it as a proposal for development. Or it's a requirement for us to look at how we might develop ethical development of artificial intelligence in the state, including the economic opportunity of ratification intelligence. And certainly the language later on seems to be more insistent with that. Or the one that I read as a predator by just talking about it. And I know that it's about a version of technology market. Just like Republicans, whatever that means or whatever the word comes from. And then the purpose to make recommendations of the use of the state government is not a publicist of five at all. And so the question is, was this intended to be a requirement for the report? If so, we've got to have it done on the list of things that we've been talking about. And we'll see, and that gets to the next part of it. As we get into P123, the one on the use of artificial intelligence in state government, which is two, has an extra component, which includes an analysis of physical impact. And it was that component that caused us to ask during physical committee to send somebody over for a little bit of time. During physical committee is the component of the legislature. These are employees of the legislative branch who support the money committees and have various functions in that regard. And they certainly are the people who can tell us or give us some strikes about how you look at the idea of an analysis of the physical impact of state in state and for state government of artificial intelligence. And that's what I'm going to talk about briefly today. So I came down to some thoughts at the end. One is, I think we have to get the ad by state government component separately addressed in the report. And that I'm a little bit surprised by the lack of something specific about it. I don't know if we have the opportunity and we have the fact that we have something that we should put in the report, which requires a question or something about it. I'll go over it. Hopefully. Thoughts do not occur in August. I was thinking, you know, under the report requirements number four, which is the whole responsibility of technical development of artificial intelligence, including educational risks and benefits. And I was thinking that's really broad and a lot of those other sort of under purposes or under other expectations can fit in that. Whether and how to use artificial intelligence in the state, that's the same question of responsible mental development, whether it's by the state or anybody else. And same thing with, you know, including physical impact is kind of a risk. When you think about it, that's a risk associated with artificial intelligence. And whether the state regulates artificial intelligence, I think that's also related to the responsible mental development of artificial intelligence. That's a separate one. That's great. Yeah, that's great. But I'm saying, you know, maybe as it matters a lot, as we take all of these off somewhere in the report, but I think organizationally, I think those all kind of fit under that general category. And so. Okay. But I think it's okay. But at that point or in forward, it is in the state, not in the state government, and the others are by and in the state government. I guess I didn't think of the state as, as they seem to rely as being the same. So it's... You know, if you were at an entity that operates within the state similar to a pride, whatever, or if it could be a not-for-profit, it could be a for-profit group. But so I sort of saw that all... Yeah, I mean consistent with number four is kind of the meat of it, right? Number four of what's in the report. But I'm okay with wherever... Is your question whether or not we need to address all of these extra things that are scattered around outside of the report? Are they additional requirements for the report? In the process you're going to, is there lots of way to look at it? No, they're parts of what is in the final list and just directing you to the expansionary about the final list to make sure you include this in the element. Yeah. It's sort of like they're just rambling along with the legislation and then, you know, thinking about what these are things we're kind of concerned about and, you know, it's not a perfect process, right? Yeah, they definitely strike me as, you know, elements of answering the other five. All of the other things, they definitely do. But I think, you know, just for saying, we just need to keep sort of a side list, make sure that we, at least in the language we use, we make it a little bit clear what they're referring to in these five, though. That makes sense, right? So, you know, you mentioned fiscal, for example. In answering the risk part of the four in there, we just make sure that at some point we have something to address the fiscal impacts or risks. And it's really hard to know what that one is really, that one could be really complicated. And that could be the answer, correct? Well, during fiscal, it's going to come and tell us what it is. Yeah. In a sense, they're going to say they don't care. If I understand right now, the head of the office is Steve Klein and we had a discussion about their hearing appointment. So we understood what the request was, and he just went, I don't know what he gets at. Certainly the literature out there says there will be a dramatic effects on the economy. And the question for those, what part of that it deals with the things that are missing in these kind of areas? So I would say that even though Steve Klein can't predict, he is the most knowledgeable person about what he needs in the lot. Someone's a good person to have a talk with. Yeah. So what we'll get is, if you looked at who came and testified for this bill, I think it sheds a little light on maybe where the language ended up the way it did. And maybe perhaps, maybe it would shed a little light on the intention of the language and what the legislature's looking for from the group. There was, you had Milo, who was one of the witnesses, presenting. You had Josh Bongard, who was a professor from UVM. And you had Bruce Duncan, who's from the Terrison Foundation in Bristol. And they're the company trying to build computers to store people's minds. And so I think when you think about the context of the witnesses, I think when you see language like the responsible and ethical development, you might get a little bit of where that was coming from and responsible growth of emerging technology markets. Maybe if you think about computer-storing minds and the autonomous weapons and submarines, which is what Josh Bongard works on, like we're talking about autonomous weapons based on, I don't know, it's just submarines. So I guess what I'm getting at is that I think that the intention was for us to be very broad and look at the overall economy, not just the state government and that piece around the fiscal impact. I don't think it was just risk. I also, in fact, there was another witness. Who's your boss? The secretary's name is your boss. John Quinn? Quinn? Yeah. So secretary, he's the secretary. Yes, secretary Quinn came in and told us how the state replaced workers with AI to upgrade servers. I believe that was the story. There was an AI program at the time. That's not replacing Greg. So we have AI that goes out and monitors the performance of servers in our server farm. We have 1,300 servers that we have in the server farm. And there's one AI that does that. And there's an AI, also, their virtual servers. So we have AI that we use that monitors them and moves them onto physical machines so that we can be less taxing, so that we can constantly give them the best performance. So if people don't mind, we just ask them some questions to illustrate your point. You didn't have the AI. How many people would it take to do that work? Well, we never had the people, but if we wanted to, so we never did the work, we'd have 100,000. But I would say, that would be a 24-hour-a-day job. And so that would at least be three shifts worth of somebody. So when I said replace, that was probably not the best word because replace implies that there was something there before. But I think I'm struggling with the right word, but the AI is doing the job of at least three people. And the AI as a person, the monitor is the AI. The point is that the work of three people to be managed by one person using the tool of AI, that that's a more efficient use of state resources. And that's really when it comes to the physical impact that it wasn't just the risk, it was also the potential benefits and how could AI be used to maximize tax, the taxes of the state, how could it make the safety and more efficient, productive, serve the people. So I think that I wanted to just throw that out there because I know that was part of the discussion, because it was part of Secretary Clinton's point when he was asked about how AI might be used to be used in state government. Yeah, and actually that's one of, two really prominent examples for us. The other one is over in the DOT, which I think Joe knows a little bit about where they're using neural networks to predict road and bridge conditions. So they're able to feed all of this data around like weather patterns, travel patterns, materials that were used, the data those materials that were used, you know, methods that were used and so they can tell kind of, they're more accurate in being able to assess what bridges and roads are going to be maintenance in the future and not having to be as reactive to it and they're just getting ahead of the game a little bit more, so. Yeah, and, sorry to interrupt. Is that a UMM Office of Technology? No, that's just within the agency of transportation. Oh, no, for years. What are you talking about? No, that's within the agency of digital services. Okay. Yeah, that's part of the bidding group. Yeah. So I'd like to go back to the question that Brian asked. Could this be actually free people or would this job be tacked on to someone else's workload? So we have never been able to do it. We've never had the resources to do it because it's a pretty, like, it's a, you know, basically 100% coverage of time, right? And I think that you can't have somebody taking breaks, you can't have somebody go on a vacation, you can't have somebody not working the night shift because it's constantly reacting to disk failing, performance increases because it's, you know, in the middle of open enrollment, so server utilization, because it's constantly working to kind of move things around. So really the shortest answer to your question is we could have tried, you know, to do it but they would probably be successful, you know, a few hours a day in doing this, right? So it would have been free people. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Yeah, I thought, you know, someone who was doing staff would say this would be three people to cover 24 hours a day. So, um, with regards to the state government, one might argue that there are some jobs that this would make sense to use AI to know it's more efficient at saving money, but the trade off is, at what point is AI going to actually be taking good jobs that people used to have? And I think if we zoom out to the economy as a whole, we're going to be talking about the economic opportunity of the software, I think that's the language you use, from software development. But I think, um, in general, it might, I think it would be good if our report looked at a broader economic lens of the risks and benefits of the economy and did address not only the benefits, or not only the risks of job loss but also the potential benefits to humanity and the planet and for the economy that AI opposes, because, I mean, the idea we've heard Stephanie say, we don't talk about a lesser work week. I mean, before unions fought for a 40-hour work week, people were working 60 hours and like being, like, you know, beating over their jobs and like, and you imagine if people only had to work 20 hours a week and were able to make a good living because AI, I mean, you know, so I'm just putting it out there. Yeah, that's all inching up again, right? Yes, yeah. I think it's also because of transition, because until AI catches up with itself, it creates this dragging in a level of work that there are fewer people to work because everybody's trying to downsize. Well, I mean, there's, I think for me the way I try to filter everything is just from a Vermont context, right? There's, there's a, all these issues are true in the broader AI context, but Vermont, we have a labor shortage that exceeds probably the rest of the country in a lot of areas, right? We have, we're more focused on small business than a lot of other areas in the country, meaning that, you know, most of our, you know, private businesses are way more, we have a much higher percentage of private business to the small business than the rest of the country. So do those things kind of like change the equation around, like we heard from the folks in the agriculture industry when they're talking about AI and robotics really help them like achieve production levels that they weren't able to achieve before because they, you know, they couldn't find workers to, you know, add more cows to their herd and do more milking and all those things, right? So that's the way I kind of have seen, at least as we've talked to people, there's a whole equation playing around around workforce and like, there's not as much displacement as supplementation. Yeah, I see that. That's a word, supplementation. Yeah, but both are possible. And you know, by the way, let me just come over here for a minute. There's a few amount of stuff, you know, as we get going and working on the report that is back in our records. So pretend with Stephanie, Stephanie said we know slides, remember she did a PowerPoint presentation on the delivery of technology generally and what I think is better for me than I am to do is, and I hope people will really go back to Slack and do it. It turns out that John Cohn has been putting something in about every week and he's been putting in good stuff. Brian put in the ethical standards from the EU. I think they may have circulated or some have probably been circulated before, but now anyway, they're back in our official record. And John has been working, started a template, which came from a couple of these meetings that we didn't have before. This is where Brian and Stephanie have to back up. I always have back issues. I might lay on the floor. We just find it. We want to pick that up on video. We can massage you. There's a lot of good things. There's a fair amount of people as they pick up stuff like this, like me and Donna and Jane were in this field, that you pick up stuff. I hope you'll do it and I hope people are using Slack. And I remember that Slack was the way we were making our record publicly accessible. So I became an offender sending out emails and that's not the way we're supposed to do it. So that's just an aside, but I think an important side is we get to that. Get to the issue of developing the report. I've been sending John lots of links and papers and who keeps putting them on Slack only because I don't want to bombard the entire committee and he was the one that has been doing that. Yeah, but now that's right. The document though that really helps a lot with respect to looking at a lot of ethical issues and the materials that are out there. Is that document that you had UVM produced, Brian? I really wanted back to look at that study, but I went and looked at all of the references in there and they did the most thorough job I've seen. And I was like, in some of our efforts, I'm like, why are we repeating that work? Since it was amazingly thorough if you actually look at the individual documents that are linked to there. Yeah, they gave a whole long list of it, right? We have it only on papers that isn't in Slack, right? I don't think... I send it out over an email and I don't know if it's posted on Slack. So could you put it on Slack so that we get in the habit of developing our work that way because that's what's going to give public access? I think just to say this on camera. So the study that we're talking about is publicly accessible. If you Google Vermont Legislative Research Service, it brings you to a website that UVM manages in which it posts all of the studies that students have done for legislators. And if you search in that study database Artificial Intelligence, it's the only one. So it is publicly accessible right now if someone wants to go look it up before I post it on Slack. But before our meeting, in order to write some of the ethical issues and summarizing the ones you have, then when I went and looked at all the documents that are posted there, nine states have already adopted one of those ethical documents on AI. I was like, why are we not... Why are we repeating all of that work? Why don't we just... We would be repeating that work if we try to develop a hormonal therapy statement if you follow nine states and knowing about nine states and begin with tenths to pick one up that would be work that we should be doing. Right. What form have they adopted? Is it legislation? Is it administrative policy? Or various... Yeah, so let me ask everybody to look at the... Does everybody know how to use Slack now? Everybody knows, huh? No. If someone else has internet access, you can put it on Slack right now. My computer won't connect to the internet here. I can use Slack. It's like from two minutes. Yeah, maybe we can just... Maybe we can just have it then Slack right now as a group. I think we're all on your email address. That's K. So if your email address is $10 a day, and Slack is about... Now listen to this here. Yeah, go back and move it. Slack was up. We're looking for the study that we've posted in there right now in real time just so it gets it done immediately. Okay. Slack has a number of work. They call it the various threads that go on in it. Well, they replace channels. Channels. So what's happened is that in the last couple of months, primarily Brian and John Cohn's effort, they have put in... For example, for example, we have to put that in Slack so people can... If we put it in Slack, you're not going to do that. Yes, this was a study that I requested. Okay. You want me to do this message? Just like put the link right now? I don't know where should we post this. Okay. Generally, these channels started out in just a general channel and people have been as they use Slack of adding channels. There was a channel for the development of the February report. Remember that was the report. We had this interim report that said we wanted the extension. And there's a channel for the final report right here that includes that attempt to put an outline of where we're going with the report from doing it. So this looks like it goes in general to me or in ethics because most of it is ethical stuff but it's actually I think broader than ethics. That's what we're talking about. Go in general, that would be good. Because we're going to use it in the ethics because there's actually a lot of other resources. Now we're going to general and on the bottom, come down. It will let you put on a Israeli... That's it. You've already got it, right? Yeah, we found it so we're going to post this. So we can just add a little text telling why you did this. That's good. Well, that's very productive. Thank you. This is the report it was done by UVM, right? No, they were asked to go out of the literature to look at what's been going on around the country. It was not a UVM student stuff. There's a UVM has a legislative research service that legislators can request studies. Literature reviews or many studies. I've used them a few times, one time just for this to find out what's going on in AI. If other states have done anything like this and what they have done. But I also didn't want to around the zero waste economy if anyone's interested. It will be a crisis. I feel like you're best first with this. What would you want to say? This is a study done by you. This is a study done by UVM students regarding AI policy period. Because I don't think it's just in the US regarding AI policy and law. I think that's a really simple way to put it and then people can read it and they can see what they look like. Okay. Thank you. And just so people know, if there was something we needed to study related to this at work that we've been doing or like we want more study I could request another. I could say to you to the UVM research service can you look into these questions further and they might find students that can assign to do that. We need a little more info or the legislature might need some more info. We can put that request in now and by January they may have something else. Thanks Ryan. This report was then over a year ago. Yes. Maybe one thing is to go back and do another thing. That's reasonable. I did because I didn't do it. I still have some sources in which I can do it. I did a 50 state law for statutes for everyone that included any reference to higher official intelligence and didn't find a law. The question was was there a task force like this? If you recall in the first which is about the report requirements that is permanent that I found from Washington that was on job applications that was interesting. That was probably the most interesting but it was a lot. Legislative statute reference to something but the material I think it seems there's a lot of that and it seems to be exploding in terms of because it's getting into the consciousness of people what it is and what both are doing some challenges there and all of a sudden a lot of people are writing about it. We even had something like Edward Kissinger that shows it's coming along. I think it would be informative for us to ask the students to research of job loss in Vermont and I think probably the first sector that will see it is retail I don't know how do they see this unfolding I'm just going to take some notes as we go about what might be in any kind of study and then they can tell us the limits of what they can do with retail and effective artificial intelligence or I think it's the most likely sector to have of artificial intelligence visit just because there's a job shortage there's a worker shortage as we've already talked about and I don't know here sits on the workforce development committee so do they I know unemployed workers have a preference in placement in these programs what sort of opportunities are there for workers who have a job and are looking to better themselves I was going then to the department of labor they don't look for jobs that are out there that might contain training really it gets pretty much here at those that are laid off for our students they have apprenticeship programs and one of the main things that they were looking at is starting looking at students as early as 7th grade to see what career path that they want they also meet with all kinds of employers to find out what skill levels that they need so that they can take that and go to the schools and talk to the guidance counselor and the students and say okay well we're going to have a three or four years from now we've got a nursing shortage big time we have construction trades and in the apprenticeship program the average construction trade workers 57 years old and so there's opportunities like that except the traditional four year college degree so I guess that's my question is we're looking at the possibility of construction and that it takes time to train workers particularly for some of the jobs that are going to be available so there's a workforce development program for workers before their kids play to help them with the training for some of these jobs that they can't fill already yes they have like saddling offices and also so yeah there's training and like for instance there's training there's training center to do for and so those centers individuals can go and get the training that they want to see for the future that's so there's actually a program that needs to be working on last week where they're talking to the kids I think just to try to get them interested a lot more I mean you know as we all know the problem is extremely expensive but students come to do that you know and then you know to find that particular field that you get a degree in it can be difficult for the students that graduated but had a bachelor's degree and found out that the jobs were so far a few between that they went back to school and computer science and how they both did jobs you know and it feels that they want so yeah you're right you know you know we enter faculty it's making a small comeback new workers you know training in those positions and say you can construct it and let them know that you know they have good jobs good benefits and you can increase that so just a quick follow up are they also looking at assessing what that training costs so here's the context this is related to something Don and you brought before on educating the personnel so if you were just talking about you know you don't have the free people that's being replaced that person right here so if they have mechanisms for that well there are some employers general dynamics but they're paying for the worker to get the skill level and the worker has to agree to like a two year or three year hiatus and so there are employers out there that do that and you know looking at the apprenticeship program I know the building trades even tomorrow have apprenticeship programs where you know any individual can sign up both in the apprenticeship program get the training they need to pay but the training to be paid by the union will help the second training can we take right from this because we'll come back to it when we're discussing the report we have a guest here you can see that it was called for two and three it's almost two we should start how about introduce yourself please and ask everyone of you to introduce to her and then we can introduce it okay so I'm Sue Zeller I'm the stage chief performance officer and I've been in that role for five years and for the eighth project I was deputy commissioner of finance and management and you know each other I'm Mark Combs I'm the chief technology officer I'm Ryan Plattigan I'm a temporary employee with the HG of commerce and community development just introduce yourself as our super staff I'm a temporary employee why does it all work Dr. Rizzo I'm the similar department fine Gina I'm the social worker as they represent Joe Segato Gene Santos I'm a professor of engineering at Dartmouth College Joe Charneau from Mont State and I'm from Mont State and Joe Delibri I'm a retired judge so it got this on our agenda is that there was a VR article about a meeting on the sunset mission which is established to talk about whether boards and committees are established by statute or otherwise should be sunset and not continue when they do what they go beyond their useful life I guess is the way to put it and part of the discussion was that it was talking about that there's a need actually for better coverage and technology set part so it's the opposite of the sunset we need something because there's duplication of that subject and not comprehensive treatment of it this is of course relevant because we're supposed to make a recommendation on whether to establish a permanent commission to study artificial intelligence fields so that we are part of this question of how should the state be looking at and getting information on any recommendations of the technology field so interested in where you are to that work and what advice you have for us to how we answer what the statute says was supposed to answer so the purpose of the sunset advisory commission which is composed of a slate of members and two members appointed by the donor which is me our job is to go through each of the 252 boards and commissions that exist and to see if they're still relevant they actually meet if they are still relevant and do we need to make any changes there's a lot of inconsistency with per diems and things like that and what we've also found is a number of the commissions reported at the end of the year recommend to the legislature ones that we think either language changes or repeal of recent in the last couple of years the legislature has taken the position that all reports that it had have to have a sunset gate in the statutory language and all commissions and boards they get founded have to have a sunset gate and that will enable a review not of 252 all at once but as they come do these little legislature and the agency and departments that those board and commissions are attached to can evaluate it in something not like we're doing not all at once in craziness so we've gone through a number of agencies we have the agency come in and testify we're also concerned with how much administrative support time it takes from away from the agency's primary duty to support a commission or more if it is no longer needed we've found several that just didn't have sunsets they were commissioned to do one report they did that report they submitted but it's still in statute authoritatively while it's still in statute the governor has to appoint members even if they don't meet even if they haven't met do you want a certificate for your wall? yes that's right we have the chair of the non-meeting commission so it's been a long making decision to eliminate we also talked to the board chair themselves if in fact they are active and we get their perspective and as you can imagine every board and commission thinks they're for the box part thinks they're very vital we found a couple that we merged because their original mandate was very close sometimes their mandate you know they may have four or five things they're responsible for the three of them have gone away because of other storage changes and things like that so that's what our mission is and as to my key and the comment that was quoted in the digger article I said something about it being all over the place and like control and oversight was really about the helicopter but it sort of gets boiled down into the same pot we have a telecom responsibilities and statutes assigned to one unit of government we have them assigned all over we have public safety we have the agency of digital services we have the department of public safety we have the E911 so it's all over the place and that's one of the other things we're looking at is does it make sense to sort of have or recommend to the jurisdiction that they look at when they create a commission or a board before they just go oh we should put that in agriculture actually think about what the other existing boards and commissions are and whether they shouldn't all be in the same quite for some continuity so that's where our goal is and we won't be doing it this year but we just identified from our list all the ones all the boards and commissions that come to us like IT and there aren't very many of them which is kind of interesting you know we seem to be we are such concerned about cybersecurity and and yet we don't we talk about it but we don't seem to have gotten our thoughts all together and decided exactly how best to provide governance on a subject that is not only important to the state as an IT using organization but to the population and citizens as well so I think that's what I meant by my comment is we still have to figure out how to get it all together we just recently created the agency of digital services and along with that should probably come some review of whether we have the right commissions or committees or whether we should have different ones more, less, I don't know I'm happy to answer questions yes how did we come in here to report now how did you find us oh no we don't you've been evaluating us we haven't been there yet we've gone through agriculture, a bunch of independent things like the commission on women we've done transportation we got rid of one of them although when the mill first went through last year the transportation committee and this is very funny they didn't want to get rid of one of the boards and commissions because they knew nothing about it and of course our agent was that's exactly why we shouldn't get rid of them would you even be reviewing us because we're a task force this isn't about us this is about you can demand it there really isn't a place of assignment of responsibility for technology generally so the agency is responsible for the use of technology in state government something like what policies should be used by government right and you actually gave one security that is like here's a course for figures of technology particularly internet but it's a generalized question of vital questions for the policy so we're in that same boat now does it make sense for us to keep our minds on look at artificial intelligence say to the relevant committees that we're sending our report to here's what we think about this question should you establish a permanent commission to study artificial intelligence or should we try to do a course of promoting which is to say is there at least some other people we could fit with this where we might say the jurisdiction should be increased or we ought to do something somehow or an arrangement of whatever to do with so now I'm just looking at this what you did so because yours is a task force I have to read your enabling language to make sure that I don't believe that it will fall under the sunset no we're out in the sunset of our regular report so that's the days in which we get very bored and then sit around and have meetings and discuss some of the things that are gone but I do believe that the the subject which of course you'll do your report but it might be valuable for the commission members of the sunset commission while we're looking at other IT governance you know commissions boards whatever you call them that's where we first started we're going to try to define all those things board commission it says commission that's what you are it might be valuable for someone to come and talk to representative John Gannon or senator Jeanette White to see if it might not be valuable for the other commission members at least to have the input so that when we're talking about IT and telecommunication within state government that we might change our minds or make a different decision based on the information that you might provide so yeah my brain started going in a different direction usually it does but so if we don't today have a board commission for cybersecurity right could we think independently I mean our problem things are going to be answering and our report are going to be strictly related to artificial intelligence but maybe you know we even talk a lot and I think we're all kind of pushing towards recommending the board or commission for AI in continuous fashion maybe we recommend a board for you know more of these emerging technical social issues and AI just becomes essentially a committee within that board along with cyber because there's a lot of analog when we start talking about training a workforce sharing information between government and private sector you know applying you know effective use whether it's ethical whether it's effective use of the new technology I think there's a lot of analog between you know the cyber issues and how we're dealing with that you were talking about training the workforce and a lot of that we're already doing with cyber we're starting to talk about certificate programs coming out of high school so that small businesses in Vermont can you know have some level of cyber security expertise without having to pay $200,000 when you go down to DC kind of thing something meaningful for their small business and then working their way out of the change you go through the education cycles and that's AI similar that's what I was thinking you guys were talking about more like some Uber advanced technology because a lot of what I remember hearing from all of this that we had is really quite an AI yet maybe there's a couple of exceptions but technology is really really important to the economy in Vermont and being more productive and moving forward and AI is like definitely a lot of things are heading in that direction but that's not just what we're talking about and so maybe that's a way to think about it like IT is like that sounds like hardware to me hardware software, more very tactical and stuff but a bigger advanced technology Vermont Advanced Technology Commission what should the state be doing to try to facilitate and support businesses and institutions and state government and using the best technology that's available no matter what it is so the only thing I would say in caution is when you know we'll say that's your report and it says that and the legislature agrees we should create advanced technology statewide whatever it's still going to wind up it's still going to wind up having to be attached to someone if you're going to have state resources on it it's going to fall to the state to support the activities and they'll have to be posted on state websites and transparency and all that so even though it's not the hardware it's still you still have to think about where it would live it would probably be a good idea to think about that and maybe include that in your recommendation one of the challenges that the state of the legislature and the administration are dealing with A911 is a perfect example it's not a sign to anybody but she's out there doing its thing and there's no, even though most of the boards and commissions they have some oversight role to play on the activity of state government but likewise the agency department that they are assigned to has some cross oversight responsibility to make sure that the board and commission is actually helping them and not preventing them from happening so it's kind of a two-way street and you might want to think about how it would work so this is another member of our chance of voice arriving I'll let him introduce himself so that I'm John, sorry to interrupt I'm John Sue John is an AI from IBM great more things so our discussion is just about boards and commissions and how they function since state government I just think the more you think about that yourself the better off you'd be when you try to make the recommendations of the legislature so you know just one let me ask some more practical questions because you're on the middle of this and you like for example describing it and not all clear about what kind of administrative support whether they get miles in the pervading or all that this is a task force on the chief and our here is totally involuntary without any reports or hear from other agencies yeah so I don't think well to be honest we're having trouble keeping our form for example where this meeting has a form but the last of the three which is being a problem for us in developing the report so this is what you get when you do it that way I take it that if we I recommend the affirmative commission it would have to be a affirmative commission that at least cover the pervade and that's the norm and that's the norm and that's one of the things we're trying to do in this mission is some commissions have reports have nothing about pervading some have specific amounts that disagree with the current prettiest statute so we're trying to get all of that on an even footing so yes it is the norm and the rates are set in can be I say something okay now the next step comes in the money we'll do your data span now we heard in a highly technical subject or a group of highly technical subjects and there's a certain mind that you would volunteer to have that expenses paid and to go further you really need some kind of a staff ability or contractual availability of staff or that sort of thing I don't know these days to say government or it's a tough sell well I think it would be a tough sell and it also has to be an organization that has a in my view this isn't absolute but in my looking at all the organizations we have has to be something that an ongoing role like humanities counselor or the Human Services Board or commission on women where they have an executive director in most of these cases those organizations have an executive director and one or two staff people and the board members so what's between those two is not the humanities council but the Human Services Board that's correct utility that's correct and one of the questions we're getting around because one of the questions we're also being asked is should there be regulation regulation right this field is this a commission you would give very little authority to and that's not a rule and obviously if you get a regulatory authority so the Habs has created responsibility for IT which in the legislatures mind includes internet and broadband and whatever else and cyber security so that in-house they have a committee that they've assigned them to the senate has yet to deal with that the senate doesn't really have any committee of jurisdiction that you would go to sometimes it's an institution sometimes it's a judiciary sometimes so my understanding is that Senator White is going to try to get them to make a decision on that which would improve I think all of our lives you know where you need to go in the senate the senate is struggling with these subjects we're struggling with these subjects you're struggling with these subjects yeah we got assigned the task force to the commerce agency I'm not sure what the history was that caused that that's what okay any other questions from okay great thank you do you think of anything else Joe can show them this one thank you very much for the opportunity thank you after the discussions we're having a lot of reporting on that can we do part of that I realize I was not on the agenda and so it's one left over from last time which is how are we going to do more public hearings and if so where and when now many of you have we've done two Burlington and Linden Burlington was very vibrant well attended when entirely it's like Linden not so much but we knew that Linden is not going to be a hard environment in the summer because we and we went to Linden state to now northern University with the hope to get some students and get some of the energy young folks interested in this in Burlington what we did and we got we got some people we got a lot of legislators which was different from Burlington but in the aggregate we had 10 people I mean appreciative that we came because they even went out but it wasn't the younger folks that we had gotten in Burlington we had one student I don't know where it fits in the whether it's public hearing or not but I did go to that Brooklyn yeah and you know we heard a little bit from students but it was you know despite the fact I had an entirely captive audience they couldn't go anywhere there was very little yeah so so I would like to say about our experience in Linden we unfortunately had our meeting at the same time the young people who had their own artificial intelligence kind of group kind of so that kind of didn't balance out and I think that's something we should be more cautious of when we try to weigh in these things I don't know how big they were but I actually reached out to Evan and said I don't know if Evan is here or she but it was this was a great opportunity and I got kind of an officious pushback about we've had this on our calendar for a long time I'm just trying to start this up it was the moment and I was like you know you were I didn't say you're missing an opportunity I kept saying oh I believe you're brain dead or something like that in the end and then we should come early and we'll start in a row and just tell you because I mean it was a little bit later than I was I'm not sure anyway it was ridiculous and I apologize for not being able to do it but I we went back and forth several times to try to exchange your phone calls but that was an issue so you but I tend to be with John maybe we would have gotten two or three more people it wasn't going to be it wasn't small but generally those things are also small it was going to be a spot where people who are interested in getting into on the field and that was the idea was an educational program can you answer your question John so I had this contact of what do you say we did then well your last one was a space down involvement in play with her and the the hospital has a the lady sat there appointment and that is available for you to drive of course we have to have a date that is available to us but when we get a date plan we can reserve it and also I'm waiting to hear back from an individual that has gotten other three meeting spaces and White River have shared their lives with me so let me so I didn't know if we were open to White River or not but yeah this is not White River this is just open to the river at the Montserr Museum I spoke to the director he's very interested in posting it to us now we get there is Montserr Museum it's not Norwich well I got it you would say it's just like what the river is it's in Montserr when you said we get a lot of people from Dartmouth which would be very vibrant the question is well you might get some temper I think the problem with Lyndon was the part was going to be hardest to get people and we got it in all the papers they were covered by the bar and we got I haven't read the story but we did do a story and you know Digger Digger did notice of that and we got it in and some people contacted Brian and Kayla so we got some of that but it's you know it's August or was it even August or actually it was it wasn't the project it was and it's just the hardest place to get and holding it at that time that just made it I think in Montserr along those same lines I think you might have seen the e-mail about this week Mike Cole from Vermont Stem Corp with the he had an article on his website he created a Thomas video streaming mechanism for Applejack a stadium over in Manchester and he said that he was more than willing to be a downtown manager over in Manchester to host public hearing I know it's a little bit far oh man well the question is also is we're in Chester it's between and it would address the southwestern part of the state I think we can do it let's do one there let's do one in the upper left then you started covered like you know west, northeast north of central and southwest but the only thing to say is we got to seriously get working on this report so the question is what is the aggregate enthusiasm and time level of this group of volunteers for purposes of getting to the two anchor I demand them I'm just concerned about that so how much of this is it us getting more input and other getting people feel like we tried to get more input how much is it? it's probably to be at least 50% of that so remember we got for example which gets us some points from the legislature and selling our product in the end whatever it is we got the chair of the House and Senate appropriations committees this was next to Ryan sending out to the legislative listing getting some stuff on front for each floor going around so we got important people from legislature unlike the other ones so anyway we accomplished that and they were the ones that said we're really happy that you came the other ones I would say the state doesn't pay enough attention to our part of the state this only makes the part of it but I think I circulated a note that Kathy Resmer from 7 Days who organizes tech change asked us if we wanted to use this year's tech change which is on October that's still pending that's another issue in reality but it's October 17 do we want to do we want to use that some way maybe not as an internal no no no hopefully that session there is gathering the most people but it's just me coming in in that station so if I'm correct me with this because I believe you were there it's not all meaning when we got our extension it is my opinion that we want to hold these public hearings and the public hearings and their estimation and I don't think they really care consider whether or not receive any mileage or any of these other things are a very important component to this task force and they also I don't believe we are required to go to these things and I realize that we all try to make a good effort to do so we should be fine with us by the way at the one in London so there's a verbal term I'm not I was supposed to sunset on this committee when it was originally supposed to end and when it's extended remember I'm only here through the end of August personally you're only here you mean because when you start that school year again you don't have time for us it's frequent night classes yeah it's going to be yeah I mean if we accommodated your schedule and met in Berlin then or you really just can't do it the driving here is hard and the few times I've tried to call in I get into the first 20 minutes and then I get dropped and no one even knew when I got dropped so it's just it's very embarrassing for an artificial intelligence peak of technology and all of you back to the report and the public hearings there's nothing in statute saying we have to do public hearings we chose to do that our group decided we were going to do that so we don't have to do them I think we should do them I think we should do as many as we can handle in the short amount of time my suggestion would be I know your time coming to meetings may end in August you could at least review the report and give us your final feedback even if you can't come in September or October I'm happy to try and call in I don't have to be able to like leave go teach and then come back for four hours it's just impossible the driving is here it's the driving here the staying the four hours and the driving comes the six hours every time I come I've hit them all except one yeah no no no when you were on the phone and of course we might you know accommodate you so I don't want to get distracted by your schedule again I'm just making the point that if you could continue helping us what I would like to propose is that we have a final draft of the report done in November so that is the case because we have till January 1st so if our final draft is done in November then it would give us one month for any last minute changes so if this group met in September and October and in November even if you can't come physically yeah and we dedicate those three times to working on the report and incorporating any public feedback we've heard then we can have the report done on time and then we could use September and October to do the remaining public hearings that we want which could include Manchester Upper Valley another one in Chenning County if we have the opportunity to have had how many wasn't there also one three white rivers that's the entire one we have a meeting space that's probably going to stay Upper Valley because then White River is one particular town but it monitors museums actually in Norwich which is then if we're going to do this then we should pit dates now and go get sort of work on it and let me say that that's supported going to Fact Jam because I think that is the biggest numbers and it is the highest percentage of millennials and people with that are any involved focus on dates I don't want to say yet you guys are in white America it's conservation from Chenning County obviously so what is the date October 17 October 17 it's at the Champlain Family Exposition now no country and western singers come with the but given that that's the fate blooming on this the you know at that point maybe we changed a little bit so it's more like here's what we think we can also present the report though and get their feedback maybe that's what we do with that here's our preliminary findings what do you think it's relatively sweet October 17 okay so can I get a motion that we participate in October 17th I guess it's going to be unanimous for everybody who said that to give the motion I was going to second I was going to make a motion that we set dates for Manchester Norwich the motion on the floor let's do this one first so we have head jam motion everybody raise their hand let's say John moved and Joe said he set it to Orion keeping all in favor of doing one okay you're on the basis so now let's move on to the other so tell Captain yes yes the floor is open for a next motion should we call Brian this we have a board so I move that we set dates for Norwich and Manchester I second that motion I'm nervous about Manchester I think you'll be surprised that there's I actually think we should take them off can we discuss the motion because that's okay so I'm discussing the motion so I actually think we would be surprised that Manchester there's a lot of towns close by Manchester there's a lot of economic activity going on there it's a big shopping community and a big tourist destination they just hosted the National Council of Women Legislators national meeting in Manchester the state reps in that area are very supportive of this of our work so I do think that if we did an event in Manchester highlighting an AI installation in Vermont and they are willing to do it with us that could actually pull out a lot of people from Bennington, Rutland and maybe even some people would drive over from Brattaro we need to do something in the south of the state and this is like I really think that we should go for it and if we get 20 people it's a success but we may get more than you think because if they have this installation and they're going to do some PR come out and check out this installation I don't know but I do think the trick is we need to do an ASAP because once the leaves are gone it's over I think we have to do this before the leaves fall so once the leaves are gone what I'm wondering about is you know how much input have we really gotten with the two meetings that we've had have they been useful in trying to get the first one the first one was and the second one just because there wasn't a lot of numbers and getting a pat on the back they were interested in finding out what we were doing but they were not experts in the field that all was really information but we got some local representatives who came out and asked some questions and gave some feedback and we had some local residents who like the one guy I forgot what he called himself he said I'm just used like this term but the point was he asked really tough questions of us and he raised the point so even if we didn't gather tech experts feedback we got the feedback of real Vermonters even if it's five to me that was valuable and we had their state reps like a good they have five of their local state reps come and weigh in on this and they learn more about our work so Adam Carr so this is not two steps at a time first question is that the motion says we're going to have public hearing in Manchester taking out the request for us to come and in whoever's area somewhere so that's a motion are you ready for that all those in favor aye okay so that I am now the question is dates where do you want to get this done you want to get them both done sometime and then October will be the last along with the commission meeting of these no-countest commission meetings and as we've said everybody doesn't have to go to them it's required that everybody get to Manchester it's just a question of if there's enough presence of members of the task force that we have people who can plot back and forth with you because I think the time to open that but that was to me the best part by the way in Berlin where we're now opened up more discussion with a number of people in the audience talking and members of the task force so anybody got a proposal on dates from what's available I guess we can pick some dates yeah how about June and September get them done get them done I didn't really receive any availability just that they were more than eager are there dates that are blackout dates for this group I'll tell you mine but I don't want to ruin everyone's part so September just next every Friday in September for me is booked at this point so if it was going to be a Friday I probably couldn't do it and just so everybody knows there's a climate strike on Friday the 20th so I won't start a climate strike so I prefer we not do anything on the day and let people focus on the climate crisis but if it wasn't going to be on a Friday this would be like a Thursday or a Saturday not Saturday both of them what's their distance safe for them it's an hour and a half to upper valley from Burlington and it's about two hours from Manchester yeah that's right two hours three hours there we understand I expect that we can get ready for that one that's great I would like to vote I would like to vote if I can if it doesn't work for me how about a motion that says Ryan please propose to us two dates on September as soon as possible or me can I just say can I make a motion that says Ryan propose some dates for us and not limited so you can give as many dates for you because there might be if they can give us seven dates for each location we do a doodle poll that might help us you know what I mean you get some dates from the organizations and you I'll get you any time you get dates and availability dates and doodle poll us for September we'd just be doing one we'd be doing a new Bench test or upper valley right both of them can we say between now and mid-October so that he has a little more flexibility look at it that way just agree to October 17 so between now and then exactly the two words maybe like October 10 early on whatever and remember you're not trying to get a form here you're just trying to get a couple of people to deal okay all right I think we've got that if we get that now I did the work mostly of trying to do the publicity and I've been saying that you need three weeks ahead of time to start this I think maybe we would have gotten more from Ryan's work if it was done earlier he came in closer to it but I ended up talking to all the newspapers and having chats with them and all that sort of stuff it took time to get all of them together so we need to get this out of the way so we get this okay so now we're back to the regular agenda and we still have a gap to captain so we're back to develop one of the reports just to put them down so the Secretary was originally on our group he's no longer he's over at the Public State he is as of okay so since we are in are we in some sense sponsored by commerce yeah we are so we need to do something yeah that's where it's going so Andy Curley is coming in as the new Secretary oh nice yeah so I don't know what Andy Curley is she's a part of the Labor right now yeah I saw they're like the public bureau they're just new people around I don't know they're just shifting people into the public bureau well exactly actually because the the Republican administration is both a public bureau well Secretary or Commissioner Public Safety person left so Mike Tremblin used to be a police chief he was the broad police chief he got hired as Secretary of Commerce he had something in between the best way to recruit the Labor situation of the states through commerce so so he got Commissioner Public Safety who is jurisdiction over public safety and the state police is retired, designed, whatever and so the government wanted Mike Tremblin so the question is we would like to get a member at the next meeting right so should we I mean I can spy on a letter to a proctor and try to get her to be sure she's a gang I can approach her as well yeah I mean I'm talking to her sometimes whatever we would of course like that and of course like the Secretary we love the agency and every other thing and that's Ryan are you now setting our meeting date? yeah that's what we should do and I think we got the time so we should do that so remember that Friday was chosen because of the availability largely of Kayla and Ryan you know because they're in the legislature and Kayla was working in the legislature and then was coming Friday afternoon to work here so we just knew I don't know if this one was a one it was a new one before one and and I was a little odd too because you didn't get a lunch or whatever but there's no requirement that we are meeting particularly on Friday and if I'm listening to Brian I'd rather that we didn't meet on Friday because she's going far in September I think but I don't want to see the little bucks but we can do a general little follow but this one we do need a forum now if you recall at the last known forum meeting the who we said that we would ask Ryan to start putting pressure on other members to get them to come and he did some and that produced a forum but we are there for him we still have members of the co-chairmen who after the first meeting would not see it was thank you and he insisted on being perfect tonight another motion but just sort of a suggestion before we get caught up in a big online doodle poll can we try a human doodle poll where like just to raise your hand I want to see can we have that we are calm and the other people might as well not be members and there's a new public safety commissioner who might appoint someone else to take that place there's a new commerce secretary I might be screwing up their title but there's a new commerce person so they might appoint someone different so we should just make our meeting and see who can come to the meeting and then ask Ryan to go vigorously after the other people go to their homes so that's exactly what we got and Ryan he was just a piece something in his working to be in line so that was it Thursday 5 would be the only Thursday that isn't I think is the Thursday before the I just found that doing some of this so the one I'm looking at would be Thursday September 12 and I can't do the 19 to 20 I can do the 17 time Thursday is my worst day of the week Thursday I tell you so let's try Wednesday I can't do Wednesday sorry I can't do Thursday no I can't work Monday Tuesday and Wednesday 10 hours a day so your world is either Thursday or Friday unless it's like September your world is narrow to Thursday 3 Thursday it depends on the timing it depends on the timing meeting, Saturday, Friday, so what well like the climate's right I don't know what time it ends but like when that's over I can come here I'll already be in Montpelier one day, one day one day of the week isn't Friday oh so if we switch to the morning and to the that would be the afternoon and you can start meeting without me and you have a bar and I'll just come we just did that with John and Johnny you're saying no you can't do you can't do what the 20 to 20 I will come in on Thursday and maybe well I'm coming back for a wedding in Pennsylvania I'm driving home what if we could get the two wedding parties to agree it would be easier it's like the deal will make it's like yeah we could the other Thursdays I just took a lot of work on it I have to do training I have to do I'm sorry when are you the 17th I think proposal for the regulation of artificial intelligence if needed there's a draft of something for that already yeah I think it's done but there's a draft work happens on both 3, 4 and 5 but there's drafts to the point that we have to say here's a subcommittee draft that we can now work on and approve a non-group now 5 I'm close I did some more work but I didn't get it ready for now I did an original memorandum on what this seemed to me that I've been working on an actual draft this will be an actual draft of the proposed legislation on recommending a permanent commission and it will give the responsibilities as long as it is left in study but of course as a result we're going to decide for 4 and 3 you may give it more responsibilities than just studying so that is to be fleshed out when you do 3 and 4 so I've heard a suggestion that we work in smaller groups between now and the next meeting to have concrete drafts like to review and then we would use the meeting to review stuff that's already written versus generating material so that's the case could we have a 3 hour meeting on a Tuesday morning on September 17th and between now and then that's the case so that in those 3 hours we sit down and we focus and all we do in that meeting is get to a final draft of the report I don't know if you're going to get it it doesn't have to be finished it doesn't have to be finished but an actual report that's written that's now floating around if that's not realistic fine the only thing worried about is if you think about on ethics it was for us to try to find a common time we're going to have to figure out a way of doing this not getting in the same room because I think we just prove that it's going to be hard to get us together for anything so I agree with what you suggested it's just that we're going to need to put some more discipline out there and do it at 3 o'clock in the morning it seems like we're all over constrained I can take time in Burlington for a 1 or 2 hour meeting and coming down here to the middle of the day on a Friday or Thursday when I have an 8-hour shift I can't do it so like for example if there was an ethics subcommittee if it was people who lived in Burlington we called gene that to me is doable the problem I think was that gene was away it was summer so every other week somebody was away and so we couldn't we were all not available so I guess what I'm saying is it might be doable at least for the ethics subcommittee it might be doable for us to have a meeting sometime in the next 2 weeks to be ready for that I've lost track of who these subcommittees are where they're these subcommittees we had time we divided the work up because when you were out we divided everything up worked on it if you look there is a google doc where you can see the latest draft I don't know where to find it I don't know if the agenda is still the same as Brian's or John's they're all the same I know it's a scam there is some stuff I don't know I've said that all kinds simple right I just figured why have we had a clause going for you want to get to a conclusion on this date I'm done we should make a plan before we lose our focus I've said that I was going to capture wait just a minute until we do it as far as I understand the only time that you would get all of one person for a meeting is on the 17th right so you want a 17th and you're now talking the morning of the 17th is that okay so we're looking at what nine to him who is showing who is showing at that time you and I are you're not showing on the 17th either I thought I was the only one I worked in Boston during the mill so now the 17th is over but if you need a quorum I can call him I emphasize this to Brian when we're talking after the last meeting it's the rub against the road time you're not going to we don't need you for a quorum we need you participating in a substantive discussion on a draft and you can do that of course remotely but it isn't as effective I can't even do it remotely because I'm driving back a pencil anyway so but it isn't as effective and Donna's by that time into her teaching you don't need to start at 8.30 and then I have another class at 2 then it's a sweatshirt I'll be working Monday, Wednesday, Friday Monday, Wednesday, Friday Monday and Wednesday would be better Monday and Wednesday, Friday would be better I can sometimes make a Monday work but I can't that week you can sometimes make a Monday work let's run with that for a minute because I can sometimes make a Monday work are there other people who can sometimes make a Monday work I think Monday mornings for me I can make work better so can I throw an option it goes down to flames again Monday the 23rd of September I could be here by 9 in the morning I would prefer more like 10 but I would live with 9 I have to be in middle grade so this was in the morning 9 to noon or 9 to 11 anyone else as long as I can call in you can't hear our teaching on Monday it's hard for me to get to the end let's ask you a question do you have a place where we can meet in Burlington at UVM sure that's kind of far for other people yeah Jean has it that's probably the biggest problem I'll be about over actually what are we talking about the 23rd I might be able to do it ooh here you go somebody else to cover Brian remember you're going over house September 23rd can we say 9 to noon on September 23rd yes I'll book it right now everybody said yes yeah okay well I appreciate everyone's patience now you're all really busy so I appreciate people's patience for the caching that's out so I have 9 to noon for the 23rd so that will be a full meeting so that means that the subcommittees are responsible for meeting between now and then and having a rough draft for their section so can you clarify who's on what's up committee how far back I'm not it's Friday she has some windows she's on the 3rd oh so we still have 2 minutes let's do this we can do this but we can do this by 3 just tell us who's on the subcommittees again so we know the big one is Brian 4 which members so we're going from the list of the 4 items and so the big one was the proposal for the responsible and ethical development of artificial intelligence including an identification of potential risks and benefits from such development that's what has come to be known as the ethics subcommittee I understood the order and I'm doing 5 a recommendation by the General Assembly I'm sure that was a permanent commissioner studying the artificial intelligence field we discussed it last time I'm actually doing a draft and I'm so far a subcommittee one I'm happy to be joined and then when those two reported we were going to go back to the question of 3 which there's a rough paragraph about it but it needs more info based on those of us so what I proposed for September is that we try to get 4 and 5 bottomed up as much as we can Donna said that if you look back at the work that UVM people did is there's a number of states that are before us on this responsible and ethical development so we may find some models yes I mean the officialness of it but there's documents written on the and we also know Brian posted again on Slack I did a promotion with Slack in your postings by the way, John, I wanted to warn you and Brian posted on Slack the EU ethics they just came up with I don't know what they call it they call it the EU at least it's got one but it's not statute it's not I don't know guidelines I think it was ethics and it has a simple thing we had that before we should ensure that's it looks like I was just doing some poking around it looks like the US is kind of leaning towards that I mean since we're talking about ethics we should play joints there's no better go ahead do all the work yourself I think just to I'm not saying this is a short cut look, we're going to we're going to adopt the current best standard which is the EU ones let's say and then we'll have an indendum that vermontifies it and then we will track as standards are all for the US or international we would adapt to those so we'll work on it but the regulation there's some things you want there's some things you want looking at so for example you just posted Bernie's plan that includes prohibiting facial recognition in law enforcement so that's a good thing I'm not promoting it particularly but I'm saying it's that kind of stuff that we have to talk about for three beyond the ethics can we decide on that is now okay time to talk about that just as an operational not a passing judgment on it we are first you've got enough on the subcommittees we know what you're doing what's one and two you need to get to one I'm doing one and two is already done we already did last week we did review we did review this is the time where I forgot what we've done so can you just say though what they were a summary of the permanent development and use of artificial intelligence in Vermont that's what our first five meetings were right but is that there's actually something written somewhere no I'm writing so there's nothing we can look at yet no but there will be by that's all the point of this one a proposal of a definition of artificial intelligence if you need it John posted one we used it at the meeting and then we talked about it well I know we added to it on the Slack too so who's going to make sure that there's a very coherent rough draft version for us by the next meeting of which of that I think we have to answer the Google it's an actual rough draft version yeah couldn't be wrong yeah the last time I think there was success the only group in which rough was good I didn't force a big one okay three's the big guy but we agreed we'd do four first and I'll give you a five and if you've got a draft of five and four yeah it's in here there'll be enough work to have a meeting on the morning of the Wednesday again now the 23rd or so 23rd okay I think that's that's a good point alright okay let me introduce Kevin Bennett I don't really know conversation on the phone and I told you the history here that because the earlier language in the law that said 23rd said that we're going to look at the fiscal impact on the state that we need to get some advice about how we might do that and so I called the people of Stafford the time of his office and Steve Fine said Gathard Bennett is the right person to munch on this and give us what is the best view that you could give in this circumstance and he was one of the second round players so that's a good idea because people who are around we actually sort of range from his role this is pretty interesting stuff that's working on so so let me say who they are Mark Holmes on the chief technology yes I'm Ryan Blanning and I'm a temporary employee he's our staff so I'll do this to send for the work okay I'm Jennifer I'm I'm Brian Chino I'm here on behalf of the National Association of Social Workers and this is state legislator so I'm here to actually represent the face of the monarchy in this I forgot you're right my role here is not as a legislator I guess who's not I actually didn't do it I'm Joe Ciali of the agency of transportation I'm Gene Sanchez from Dartmouth College Joe Charnault from state of the Council of AFL-CIO so that's the money at FL-CIO among many things so okay I'm gonna hear those first so what we heard the goal of this discussion was how are you guys going to address what are the physical impacts of artificial intelligence that's where we took this from so I gave this because I may have heard a report but I'm not going to focus on the first page so just to give you context we have a lot of things going on they're not necessarily artificial they're not AI, we have demographic issues that are going to dramatically change things with other telecommunications and internet changing the world and climate change but these are big things that are going to impact or not without artificial intelligence so all these things are going on and it's going to be hard to figure out what is causing what I just want to give you that context that there's a lot of things moving and so the first point is the key point physical management is difficult because you do have all these things going on it's going to be really hard to tease out for those kinds of things climate change is going to impact the economy and all the growing there's just a lot of the interplay of things is tough so I don't know I don't think you can really measure the physical impact very well you can talk about it that's the first type of argument which is thanks for asking us this but we have no answer but it's important to think about it and the second thing is it is going to affect both revenues and spending at the state level like the revenues taxes can go up, taxes can go down and probably both, some will go up some will go down, our spending will go up in some areas it will go down in other areas directly and I think the next couple of pages have more details on this and then you're going to have some areas in the state that are really going to suffer for many reasons not just because of artificial intelligence the Chippin County's booming the rest of the state is essentially shrinking so those areas are really going to suffer and have issues about accessibility to internet right so there's going to be a push from a state in perspective there will be interest in trying to help those areas of the state that are not going as well so that's not really a direct impact but as artificial intelligence takes over as the European piece of it there will be just be general interest in trying to help those who are being hurt by any of the above changes including AI there will be transitions for lots of people both good and bad right but that being said so it's hard to measure it's convoluted but to keep thinking about it it's important to keep people's attention on it it's important it's an important piece of thinking about the fiscal impact so you can't really measure it you don't know exactly how much it should attribute to this but you don't want to lose sight of the fact that all of this is going to be impacting the state government and the state generally so here in AI in parallel with climate change there's generally not much upside for climate change I'm wondering is the thinking of this that there would be a net negative from AI when you think of that because I think there's probably a little balance now I don't have the answer to that wasn't so much asking whether it would be not I'm wondering in the conversations that are framed in your area is it generally felt that it's somehow something that we have to defend ourselves against as opposed to the source of health I think there will be people who will not suffer through some transition will not be worse off so the state as an entity or the state as a whole may be ok but individuals who are not or regions that are not doing as well will that may be of interest to help those areas or those people so that doesn't mean that on that I don't know that anybody will be able to answer whether or not we are losing because there's so much transition in it I'm just curious in the tone of the conversations on around that to the extent that it does come up we found that there's an awful dependent where you go in the state there's different things where everybody's looking at it as fearful where it's opposed it's an odd tone to me it's more positive but I've actually got a little bit more balanced I'm just curious in the tone of the conversation so it's interesting we have it it's unknown as you say what do I hear people talking about AI specifically I don't have I haven't had enough I think it's been in a conversation we're constantly transitioning we don't have people operating elevators anymore so you have your phone there is always this transition so if you're asked to become eventually it all works out and you move forward and that's a great opportunity for artificial intelligence that being said I worry that and I think our whole office worries that Vermont's going to be a small player it's going to be hard to attract people it's going to be hard to attract if there are the upside are we going to be able to take advantage of it what's involved with taking advantage of it of the upside of it and what do you need to invest in it and how do you navigate that and other places are better are better situated for taking on those changes we have a million different roads we're probably not going to be the first state that is completely doing autonomous cars because of that and so that is that's what I think we worry about more in that sense sort of in that bigger perspective but that's what you're saying that's what you're worrying about that you're not going to know about that Vermont is at a disadvantage nationally in this arena one of the questions I've been trying to in my head figure out what fiscal investments could be is that this is not like there's some things that are technology issues right this is really not a technology at some point it transcends a technology right like you had you had the computer age right and yeah you could talk about individual computers and computers are doing but overall the impact of the computer age was much more macro and like you say areas some cases were good some cases were bad then you had the internet age I think the machine learning age is equivalent to those two epochs I guess you know if you want to call it and so the question for us is like how do we the people that you're talking to should we be explaining to them the specific technology or should we just immediately jump to the grander of this is you're in the machine learning age the definition of what AI is not to be you know everything but the definition of what AI is and how to specifically regulate AI is irrelevant because you've already you've already it's already bigger right so how do we as a state put ourselves into a position where maybe we're just we're behind like you say in some instances but at least we're maybe early recognition of the bigger opportunity puts us I don't know I don't know if that makes sense to anybody how does that relate to physicality well the way I'm thinking about it is the fact that it's an industry that you can invest in early effectively right it comes with risk but you know what would be our what would be our competitive advantage in that industry it's probably not going to be access so in the internet age it was access to you know silicon valley and you know Harvard you know Boston those areas and things like that because the resources were you know brain powered students but maybe now the issue is the problems that are being solved you have to be closer to the problem now right like there they can be really far from the problem but if you're going to solve agriculture and machine learning issues you can't do that from San Jose or Boston you have to do that in Vermont so one thing what I really like here here is that I I think one of the things the sort of brave little state of the fact that we can be really bold and I don't know what it's playing out but like with things other technologies like blockchain which is supposed to be transformation it's not nearly as much as this it's still a little let me tell you I agree that just to give you an example this guy out there there are certain things that the state has done or tried to do data registry there are certain things that are all size section advantage so it might not be that we're near or so you know we're not so in that way of the place but that we might have discipline I mean there's a cannabis registry one of my favorite causes that the the government is about to announce it's actually for CDV so that's based on blockchain and I'm not a huge blockchain fan my point is that it's small places that's bold and and deliberate across the state we might be able to act more equitably than the other state so kind of to put it to since I think you're right it's unknowable what can we do to advantage ourselves you know are you going to go through this whole thing so I'm wondering if people who speak willing are questions from this point till the end so that we can get through it because I have questions but I'm going to hold them because I want to hear everything so the second page is an interesting white advert board that has been and now it's in 2016 so there's a 2019 update there's a 2017 around so you may or may not pick up something else but it's really these good bullet points to have to talk about I'm not going to talk about it now I notice that this national money has a law which is right in the state where the monitors are destroyed but the public is one that's sort of difficult we're struggling because so if you think about the demographics we have a smaller and smaller population so if you have a really filled as people retire you could actually have the same productivity with fewer people I'm just saying it goes both yes and no I got that in terms of saying maybe artificial intelligence actually a response to what was about the language right? it might be I mean if you think about positioning yourself so educating and training if you need people on the ground here you might want to use that education and train what state has put in that everybody has to do computer programming some state just instituted that I'm not saying that that's the right answer we've had exactly the opposite well we've talked about it but we have not made to do that because of the certification is that right? I don't know that that's the answer but you can go for any range you've got all that so I'm not going to you could mention these and I'll mention these in your report that there's always someone who can do it so the partial list of impacts was a brainstorm in our office about trying to think about these physical impacts and all the trade-offs so there's a direct one that we talked about or rather you might have revenues going on because you might have higher income people you might get remote workers you might end up having work done here you might have people with services you lose revenues that's why it's hard to know but you've got gas tax going down if you're using electric vehicles so the changes and the composition of the workforce wants to go ahead and pass the revenues depending on how it plays out to people people lose jobs, people gain jobs transform maybe get educated into other jobs so that I often downs on that it's the same with spending because the state purchases stuff, what do we have to buy? I'm going to go to the simple ones and talk about it but the state has a law that I've sent to my and the agency they use projects projects over a certain amount of money there has not that it's not not that it's not they've all been really tall and small they thought well actually with the needs we do the quarter money we can read reports to the legislature we have a half million dollar report and one million dollar report but we have secretary level oversight approval of quarter million dollars so that was an interesting question because another one of the conversations about the state comes out of the department of law who say they want to use AI for purposes of ensuring they want to use facial recognition to ensure that they have the identity right for driver's license that's the major thing and they've already had a little incident which they gave away some of the facial recognition to and so whatever the department is there's no review of that that's the decision to be giving away the AI it's less really about the ability to use facial recognition which is an efficient way to check the identity of somebody because otherwise how else do you know whatever method you might want to use to check identity that's in some way an element but it's more like that was what got you the agency and a little bit of hot water for the first instance but it seems like the latest thing is about another possible hot water therein because there was legislation as a result of the first one and now the agency is trying to buy software that actually uses facial recognition within the agency not any longer to put it out anywhere but that's like a privacy you know but there's no review of that it's just but it's not a physical impact issue we're trying to be well theoretically there's probably not being more productive more efficient maybe but then there's these other consequences that happen that's a result of the technology maybe some bad decision maybe some non AI bad right yeah exactly alright so you've also got changes to the regulatory strategies right as you institute this you may want to regulate things differently and that takes time and energy and you know the changes to the cost of service like that healthcare we've got healthcare a little bit later on also it's so fascinating you think about the quality what you can be providing people remotely or far away and how does it all work together so that's anyway those are the advantages so the indirect impacts are what we talked about where you've got where you've got things changing and there's pressure so I'm thinking about two physical impacts one is what the state government has to pay and then also just generally and the state government could be pushed to help maybe a motivation to help disadvantaged workers or to me that they're slightly indirect because those are consequences and then the state steps up to help out with some kind of economic incentive we may also have more people who are out of jobs so you have more involvement in social welfare programs and we'll be at the age of our workforce so I mean can you teach an old dog your tricks some people you can, some people you can but the question is how do you train people in this new environment work and if you have a decrease in workforce maybe that works because we have this artificial intelligence that will help you seeing the importance of internet access well that's just the thing that you all know about that we it's important for many basis to improve that I'll tell you the fact that he serves there for a second is really interesting in healthcare in particular because we have these hospitals that are struggling and the state is not directly on the hook as a state entity physically but we're on the hook as a state to try to figure out where our medical services should be provided and how we keep medical services available and so I don't know if it's false or not maybe I don't know but it's a really important thing to keep in mind about how what is it going to do for medical care in the health parts of the state and maybe there'll be more services that you can offer in the north of this game that we're going to be at right now so that is and then it may take more jobs than because we've got more services so people don't have to travel as far anyway those trade-offs are so interesting to think about this and talk about it and it's exciting but it's a little like clear how it's going to play out and so once again I think you should be proactive when you think about hospitals in particular those are important services, health care services especially as our demographics age will be more and more demand in our hospitals and health care services and so once again thinking proactively about how artificial intelligence is going to affect regions and health care is important transportation I'm going to need public transit demands this is the state of Georgia cost we do what this is going to make that's getting better and easier for everybody we do it all ourselves or we can share the costs of now with others and they sent me a question about urban Vermont because you've got pavement there and a lot of other places in Vermont you don't have any where what is the technology going to do there so does that impact, does everyone skin and there's this big draw in the other parts of the state I don't get as much the impact in some of the strategy costs energy interesting to think about how energy is going to be produced in news right and how what can we do and once again it's going to be a nice disparity in housing so these are, this was a list it's certainly not comprehensive, we sat down and brainstormed it but it did give you a flavor of some of the things you were thinking about and obviously when I go back to healthcare that's the one that's been in the news a lot recently with insurance and hospitals and so it's it seems like a useful topic to talk about because you can see upsides and downsides on it and how it plays out will really matter to really matter to a lot of contractors so how do you try to make sure it works well and it's just one more thing to keep in mind as you or whoever is thinking about being proactive so as you've been looking at trends right I guess the question is are we seeing like the GDP at the state kind of move in tandem with sort of the workforce demographics that you're talking about or is there like are we starting to see the actual impact of automation and some of these other things GDP at either a growth level or whatever so that the demographic changes are less of a problem because then the question is like you start talking about the fiscal impacts like do we, you know, or some of these recommendations are in the end to move away from payroll taxes and more towards, you know production tax, like income taxes for the town or something like that but it's a great question I mean it seems like there's some tax pressure permission which is meeting now for the next two years or a year and a half but that's exactly what they're thinking about like structurally how do you think about the future of the economy I don't I think demographics are a piece of it but I don't think the only thing that's going on is the effect of GDP so you could be I mean Vermont is, I can think Vermont is amazing at innovation people start things here it's an incubator and I don't think this is me speaking out my office but I don't think we celebrate that how good we are at that and I but if we could promote that and channel all that energy, there's a lot of amazing stuff that comes out of it I mean it's amazing when you're ready to go to a party and you meet these people who've done invented crazy things and they're doing really interesting work that doesn't happen in every other place I mean you know calling back to this sort of great little state there are a couple of things that we're known for like green we could be the center of green AI we could talk about it why not all it takes is branding some small investment this is probably mostly about money, it's mostly about vision which is harder than money of course like using AI to improve the electrical grid using AI too so something I got from your recommendations maybe it's more than one I see that I appreciate how the process of the office brainstorming all these different areas because it really shows how complicated the fiscal impact really is and the fact that you point out that there's other factors that are going to play into it it's like this dance and that it's unpredictable so what I'm getting is that a recommendation I might make you know where I might propose we make is that there be some kind of ongoing monitoring and that whether that's done through a commission that already exists or through a new AI commission or whatever once again we've heard from other witnesses that there's a need for monitoring because law is not going to move fast enough to keep up with this field and so there's going to have to be other ways that society keeps up with it whether it be rules or regulations or AI making decisions about AI or whatever and so I take that piece around monitoring and being proactive as a major theme of your recommendations another theme that stood out to me was this issue of like social equity that when we look at the economy that there's an impact on the lives of people and that there's already other factors contributing to disparities and wealth or disparities in power like knowledge or access or resources and so it sounds like AI could be it could go in any direction and it's going to there's going to be other things that play into it so I don't know what to do about that but I do think it needs to be on our radar screen when we move into that report is like how do we address those how do we take that into account as well that it's not just about money but it's about what it's doing to the lives of people and then the last thing I'll just say well I have the floor is that what John said like when I originally proposed the idea of like an AI commission it wasn't for me as an individual not the body the legislative body it was not a fear based thing it was really I imagine like wouldn't it be cool if Vermont became this zero waste green economy state that was cutting edge where like and then we did so well that we could provide all the citizens with these public goods that would make people want to live here and then when the oceans flood and there's all these refugees and then we're to go and we created a place for them to come where we can handle that and incorporate more people into and you know be a place that like a beacon of hope in the middle of all this like crap that happens to the earth you know so so that being said like I appreciate that you pointed out the other factors because the demographics are going to change as climate change happens it's already happening we're already seeing people fleeing South America coming to the United States and what are we doing as a nation with the refugees we're coming I guess I just wanted to end with like sort of like a hopeful note which is I do you know I'm hoping that we can make some recommendations that are positive around what can Vermont do to like maximize the benefits and minimize the risks of this emerging technology and I think you struck upon that so I really appreciate your testimony in terms of the fiscal impact and you know any time you transition there's some of the people that suffer right some people thrive with the benefits and you know you have to learn a new job or whatever your job gets but you know what we're talking about in the elevator so you have to learn something new so how do you how do you help that so it's not so disruptive in people's lives that's what I think you were saying right that was great I hope we got it recorded you just I mean I think you just synthesized that's like the preamble or a conclusion of the whole thing potentially just the way you kind of laid that out so I mean I think there's some really good high level synthesis I'm trying to be better okay yeah I believe you do maybe this should be up on this flag yeah I mean I think it's possible we are trying to create like a kind of legislature does so eventually hopefully well I don't know if Ryan knows this yet but we've talked in the past about by the end of our work you're being a place where it's all digitally accessible forever so people can go back and look through all the testimonies that would be wonderful because you know our IT guy and I was just excited and I sent him to your committee page and all it has your minutes but it doesn't have no the rest of it you have to know when it goes like it sucks so when you get your job description but if you have a minute it's part of your work because I don't want to ask you to do something if you could look at how the legislature does committee meetings and how they do it because if you go look at how the legislature does it it'll have the day it'll have each witness and what they it'll have the day's agenda and then it'll have each witness and their presentation on the day and so there might be a way we can do a similar thing when we have a meeting it has our agenda in our minutes then it has each witness's name and what they gave us and it wouldn't be that much more work it's just a little bit more would you just want the witness names below and then like the other PDF exactly sorry but I don't want to give you more work I know I made a lot of this I was recommending linking to SLAC so that people can find whatever information you have I think we can have that too but I still think how it's structured now have your role I can certainly do that with SLAC is SLAC that's easy Gmail SLAC is not very complicated to learn how to do it I can work with marketing and media coordinator in our department to try to get that up and I think SLAC should be up there but what I was just saying is in addition to having a link to SLAC which for some people that might not be very accessible for every meeting we have in addition to the agenda in the minutes if we just have a list of what the witnesses gave us in the place of the meeting that would just be good for the public because they're going to be like Stephanie Sabino came let's click on her name and look at her presentation in the minutes you can click on the minutes so like if you just had the next thing I would have said even documents do you know how you have the minutes up there or you can click on the minutes to open the document it's mainly just the time place and the moments right so you can have one more tab but the problem is you have multiple documents under that final thing the legislature does have a pretty good system but they just manage a lot of documents I don't know what year is set up but it would be nice to have because I think people will look it's fun to go over this by the way when I first talked to Steve he immediately went down and sent back from an international consulting group a long detailed report that you've ever read but I I went through some of it and it says AI alone is a 3% increase in international law AI alone the internet is one and a half so you are really talking that's reasonable that's like a good outer bounds kind of thing to say but it also gives you respect because the internet is one and a half yes it does give you a lot of respect the right way especially for those of us that are out before the internet like it's only one and a half it puts people happy it's huge you don't get the remote workers they're never made by our email our state economy has two remote offices and we can't really we can't send and receive documents out of one of the places because the connection isn't good enough this is the story we hear all the time yeah and it's if you want to attract people if you decide you want remote workers or you want people to allow people to flexibility how to act and why they can't live there that's what artfully I think why those urban surrounding counties moving right also people like to be run sometimes people want it in their life they want to do things right maybe teleporters that would go for it but it was it was Wyoming that the K-12 public school the conference it was in Wyoming and Wyoming it's very similar to our size we compare a lot different in their world right and they're just smaller the population we're number two they have only one population but they're not that much smaller I think they're only 5% we're like 6% I think we're 20% larger that's true they can't have one road to be taken to that we don't have two jobs thank you minutes this is the first time we've had a forum since then have you moved it? which ones do you move? February is there a second? is there any discussion? all those in favor? aye all those opposed? okay do we have a motion on the June 14th minutes? is there a second? is there any discussion? all those in favor? aye all those in favor? opposed? all those in favor? okay and we don't have to tell Brian that we set the I will set the record on productivity we got two so we've never had it so for the June 14th so for the June 14th who's first? who's second? yeah she made it I think and they were welcome we haven't had the time and we haven't had anything else so if people want to stay around on a Friday afternoon talk there's about 25 minutes possible otherwise we haven't made the word Brian I think we should set the meeting for the ethics committee before we leave today or could we meet now? yeah why don't we let you leave? I can stay on the floor I can stay on the floor what are you talking about? what are you talking about? the efficiency the lessons of my subcommittee is it's only me and I don't know I just want to so for the meeting minutes I'm not sure what the processes you go about I sit on the formal economic progress council and I need minutes for that and then I'll write them and then it'll go by two or three people so for the meeting minutes I think you normally the way we've done it is that it was Kayla before you Brian Breslin and then Brian Breslin sent it out at the next meeting or whatever Brian Tina actually did the last minutes but these would have been on for a meeting so he did the last minutes and then he sent it so Brian sent it in so I think that's the way it ought to be since I'm presiding Brian wasn't here he sent it to me if there's anything missing or anything I'll let you know otherwise we'll just send it out I just want to adjust the site real quick just because someone called about it I had a few questions so like meeting minutes for like May May 20th we got together as an agenda but there's not meeting minutes I'm guessing those are passed but they're not yeah I don't know Brian we canceled the arm and we canceled what was going on that was I remember I think that was in March no that was in March so did we have a meeting for the form in May May 20th we did yes and I don't think to my notice because I think there was actually minutes that were sent out by Kayla but let me double check why are you here looking I'm just looking for minute Brian naturally wants to get a minute from May so there were three there was May I guess I can post the public meeting minutes that Brian gave me from Linden State it doesn't have to be passed or anything those should be fine then July 19th you have to meet July 19th it's your own handle on the same problem yeah so I guess the only question is really is the May 20th so I know sorry so in May she sent out the meeting minutes from the public from months before no from the equal public hearing hearing in Bell yeah sorry and then did she the legislation went out and she may have known no I don't think she has I mean I've got a really good record of everything she's sent so the question the problem you see is that your predecessor essentially what happened is that she she had a job and she had a legislature boss this job that was enough and then the legislature and she had a homeowner he has an income and so she immediately went and got a job I don't think she ever did if you might guess she's still here we could ask Brian or I would say but I think that's the answer what's missing? May 20th we're still meeting but I wrote the minutes no that was the last one okay because I can't in my name that's just for the public hearing no I know same Mr. Wenger and so there's minutes missing from May yes that's a yes I guess that's the one I think we just asked her she probably asked so I don't understand or I didn't expect for a minute so it was really a helpful discussion obviously for purposes but it's not a but you did the minutes for Delilah I don't know those we just haven't had a motion on yeah I understand what I'm telling you is because there was no form I don't think it's appropriate that much yeah I don't think so but those can be up on the site they should be up I would err towards posting information then not posting information the only thing with the site that I wanted to address was I know on the site it says who posed the 14 members how many 10 times honored before June 30th, 2019 right now January yeah and it's an S and the number is changed too so you have to know the act it's at the end of the long act that was done at the end of the set 131 is that the what was the Brian sent out what it was I'm talking about Brian June what is the act it was age 16 I don't remember where the number is it was age 16 you can go on the one website put in age age 16 it will pop right up and the term has an act number you can read it either way it was an act relating to boards and commissions which is what our first guest was talking about