 Let's wrap up tonight with a talk about designing perennial flower gardens Our speaker Don Kinsler is a native of Lisbon, North Dakota, and he's been a lifelong gardener Don is the NDSU extension agent for horticulture in Cass County He's quite the busy man. He writes two weekly gardening columns He hosts weekly programs on two radio stations during the growing season and Don loves to talk about gardening Don welcome to the forums Thank you, Tom. And thank you everyone. It's great to be here this evening and I am excited to talk about perennials this evening Now we're going to talk especially primarily about designing a perennial garden and Maybe next year a part two of this could be talking about specific perennial types So we aren't going to talk a whole lot about specific perennials We're going to talk especially about ways that we can get our perennial flower bed to look a little nicer and Just kind of a little You know a little more pizzazz to it now oftentimes when we see perennial gardens Maybe you've toured ones when we see a well put together per perennial garden We kind of we just know it and so going to talk about some of the tips that people Specifically can use to make their perennials a little better Now I couldn't resist putting in a few different types of perennials, of course just to kind of wet our appetite Now it's going to be so fun in May when the bleeding hearts bloom and then the end of May and into June the peonies will be Fully out just wonderful then in June the iris are going to be blooming and followed by day Lily's in the middle of summer and now day lilies got a pause for a minute on these Day lilies if you think about the old-fashioned varieties that weren't all that nice small flowers a little bit on the weedy side or the Little short Stella Diora day lilies that maybe we're getting kind of tired of that are in front of every dentist office around but Do consider day lilies because they are they have made such nice improvements one of my favorites is the one photo here called Buttered popcorn. What a wonderful name for a day lily buttered popcorn huge blossoms I've got quite a few plants of that one a spider-man great big huge red blossoms and There's even pink frilly types So day lilies a little something for everybody and then even true lilies growing grown from a bulb blow Some of the types are hardier than others But even in our zones four zone three with a little bit of protective mulch in the fall some of these beautiful type trumpet lilies will bloom well also and Of course then in the fall of the year perennials have a lot to offer such as these mammoth mums now Mammoth is the cultivar name the mammoth series was developed in Minnesota University of Minnesota and wonderful these are the some of the heartiest of the Mom varieties and they're blooming when the snow flies in November December so again the mammoth cultivar of mums available in a few different colors and styles and So there are perennials for all four seasons and that's one of the charms of perennial flowers is that we have spring blooming perennials summer blooming perennials in the fall of the year It's amazing when we kind of think maybe there isn't a whole lot going on in a perennial garden just the the shades of brown the The mums of course the different seed heads the ornamental grasses There's a lot of nice things going on in the perennial garden in fall of the year and yes, even in winter time You know, it's interesting our winter landscapes With the snow covered when the tops and we're gonna talk about leaving the above ground portions on we're gonna talk about that later But when the tops are left on like that There's a lot of beauty when you look out of your window onto the winter landscape There's beauty to be had so there's a lot of good to say about perennial gardens So let's talk about some of the specifics the steps in how to design a perennial flower garden So that it's going to look really really nice. Okay, so first of all Whether or not you have an existing flower garden or you're going to start from brand new We should start with a survey of the area We should get the dimensions so you know exactly the size of the area that you're working with And of course know whether it's sun parts Parts on part shade that's going to determine what types of perennials do best in that area And a soil test that will tell the ph Felt the organic matter tell what your the natural fertility is of the soil So check with your county offices n dsu soil testing lab And then know our hardiness zones and of course we're in zones three and zones four So we choose perennials that are adapted to that and we can fudge a little on some of these because we can give them winter mulch protection So some of the things we can push the hardiness a little which is fun on perennials And know whether the location that you're working with is exposed or microclimate And I grew up at lisbon And uh, there's a big difference on what could be grown on a windy hillside On the surrounding hills of lisbon versus what could be grown down in the valley in an older established yard So there's a difference in what we can plant So the second item is to plan on paper, you know, sometimes we think oh gosh, you know paperwork Can't I just go buy buy the things at the garden center that look nice and then kind of fill them in well That's not the best way to do it the world's most famous perennial flower bed designer is a dutchman by the name of pete oedolph and he has designed famous perennial gardens all over the world and he has His designs have kind of a naturalistic look that is currently a hot trend And they look so very very natural don't they? But he carefully scripts those flower beds carefully. He puts on paper where every single plant is going to go He also does not just seed them sometimes i'm asked Can we plant a wildflower perennial mix? But that doesn't really Create the nicest perennial flower garden really starting from plants So you can locate and use these design principles So it is easier much easier to start with plants Purchased from a garden center or get divisions from friends neighbors and notice how he developed graceful sweeping curves And so in our own perennial gardens those sweeping curves make them look very natural So thinking again about how you want to design a perennial garden Uh when you kind of start trying to kind of put these ideas in into place One thing you can do is create a mood board and that is just get a A poster type board and when you see a nice perennial flowers that you like in a In a magazine or online just post them on there It starts you kind of Formulating what you would like your perennials to look like your perennial bed So third i mentioned the four seasons of perennials the four seasons of colors So the fourth item is to intentionally plant perennial flowers that will give you that color During the four seasons now when my wife and i had a garden we had a garden center in south fargo for 25 years And we sometimes we would get customers that would come in and say well, I'd like a perennial flower And I'd like it to bloom the whole summer And in a variety of colors would be nice too. Well, that one hasn't been created yet Perennials have their certain specific season of bloom So if we choose those that Are labeled for spring blooming early summer mid summer fall etc And we can even add some winter color with shrubs such as the high bush cranberry So next to make a perennial flower bed most interesting We can use a variety of flower types We can do spike shapes round flat mound shape Do you see how the combination of flower forms gives interest to that? And ornamental grasses the locally owned garden centers have so many different types of ornamental grasses I think we've all seen the carl forester grass that is in front of you know, so many Businesses dentist office, etc. But there are so many more interesting types and adding ornamental grasses Give such a kind of a movement to the perennial flower bed notice here in the fall how pretty those are It just gives it gives a totally different texture and structure to that And when you're planting groupings of a Of type of flower in nature. We most often see odd numbers rather than a symmetrical even number So numbers of three five seven for example, I mentioned I mentioned buttered popcorn daily So to create a little more impact instead of just one buttered popcorn daily I planted a grouping of three. So when those are blooming they have greater impact The next point is to repeat groupings Now I mentioned that each of the different perennial types has a certain bloom period during the season And so when for example those uh blue uh selvia are blooming when they're blooming If we locate a number of groups throughout the perennial bed Then at that time um the the bed is more complete if you follow me We don't just have them blooming in one corner, but instead we have a continuity Blooming throughout the perennial garden or when the when the iris are blooming in june if you locate iris throughout the Perennial bed, then you'll have iris going continually kind of throughout during that time that they're blooming, of course The next concept is to use assorted heights in the perennial garden Now of course we we're all familiar with uh You plant these short things in front the medium things in the middle and the tall things in back But if you follow that too religiously it can look kind of too unnatural Instead don't be afraid to locate some of the taller things towards the front such as those pink flocks Now naturally we're not going to put a short thing behind where it's going to be What's going to be hidden But if we pull some of the taller material little towards the front and then put taller yet things behind that But you see the way it gives kind of a dynamic just an interesting an interesting kind of movement or It avoids a rigidity that if you stick too religiously to short and front medium then tall So use assorted heights and When you're choosing perennials such as that with assorted heights There are kind of two types of perennials Based on how long they live Some perennials live very very long And some don't live quite as long and when I say long lived some live You know 100 years some types of perennials only live three four five years, but they're still very good worth using So the key here is to when you're designing a perennial flower garden Create a backbone of the long lived types And when I say long live peonies when we plant those now, they'll be there 100 years if all goes well easily Or iris they do beautifully the day lilies that I mentioned True lilies the bulbs underneath you can dig divide Give them some winter protection. They'll do fine and flocks many many more So we create a backbone of those long lived sturdy types And then we can add types that are shorter lived, you know three four five years And then it seems we need to replant them in our north dakota minnesota areas But they're still very much worth planting because they're so beautiful in this Category are the things like the cone flowers well worth planting even though they aren't going to live probably 100 years They're still well worth it. Monarda is in that category the b-bomb and choreopsis beautiful perennials Very much worth using even though they're not going to last quite as long as the others The next concept is to make sure that we space plants to allow for their Their mature footprints so they don't get too crowded So make sure that a peony that's going to be at least three foot in diameter Make sure when you're spacing your plants that you give it that three foot or more footprint So they don't get things too crowded Next is in addition to the perennials Don't be afraid to add ground covers creeping juniper's shrubs. Notice how beautifully those white anabelle hydrangeas Notice how well they go in a perennial flower bed. Isn't that pretty? and look beyond bloom a perennial garden isn't all just about flowers But there are foliage that's so interesting like the blue fescue. There's fruit In the winter there the high bush cranberry viburnum beautiful oftentimes the buds of different flowers are beautiful and the shapes the forms the ornamental grass there that's kind of Flowing in the wind a little bit. So there's a lot going on there Besides just the blossoms and some people even prefer to go as far as doing a color scheme I'm not at that point yet. I kind of like more of a variety, but we could do a warm theme or a cool theme in the perennial garden such as the shade garden great spot to add a container full of Full of annuals such as the coleus there. Notice how that container of annuals the coleus gives a pop of color to that shade garden And speaking of annuals if you leave a space in the perennial garden for some annuals They give a great pop of color and annuals which tend to bloom all season long all summer long They tend to bridge the gaps when all when perennials might not be totally in bloom The annuals tend to bridge those gaps Also, look at the large container of sweet potato vine on the right hand of the screen. Isn't that pretty in amongst the perennials And a comfort spot with a little bit of privacy if you have enough room in your perennial garden Wouldn't that be nice? I've got a couple of benches in our own perennial garden But I rarely find time to sit on them Uh, there's there's always lots to do in the garden But at least I know if I've got a bench there if I get done with all my chores. I can sit there All right, sometimes the neighboring yard will give you a good view For example here the evergreens made a nice backdrop for these perennials So if the neighbor has something good going on in theirs, maybe we can piggyback and use that as a background for our own Oh, and I love this one patience is a must A perennials are a long-term project When we had our garden center and we were designing perennial beds and doing landscaping I almost mentioned to to customers and when they planted their own If your perennial garden looks wonderful the first season, you've done it wrong Uh perennials take time to fill out and establish such as peonies peonies easily take three four years Before they really develop enough of a crown to burst forth. In fact, I would rather on most perennials I would rather take off the blossoms the first year or two Uh, especially something like peonies. Peonies are going to be there for 100 years So let's let the strength go into creating a good well-rooted with a nice big crown So patience patience is definitely a virtue with perennials And fun to add a piece of statuary in these are kind of nice little touches that we can do in a perennial garden Now if you have an existing perennial bed, sometimes you have to decide what's going to stay and what's going to go If you want to redesign and of course, I think this perennial bed. I think most of that's going to have to go All right, and a good counterbalance for Uh a perennial garden is a nice sweep of lawn That makes it just such a nice green kind of a canvas on which the perennial garden can be featured On perennials love natural mulch the natural mulch such as shredded bark Keeps the soil cool keeps moist and perennials do so well Rock not so much I know some perennials will grow in the in rock mulch around commercial type buildings But really what perennials want in our home yard is a natural mulch and also Uh, okay, how we what are we going to put underneath that wood chip mulch? Well, if we use a fabric a landscape fabric Sometimes that that's difficult with a perennial bed because perennials you're digging dividing you're moving them around and That fabric can oftentimes just be in the way of all that So i'm not a big fan myself of using fabric under that mulch instead Here's a little secret. This is probably going to sound a little funny. This is not my yard, but the concept is the same under my Under the shredded bark in our own perennial garden I use cardboard Overlapped it does a great job of smothering the weeds. It's going to decompose turn into just, you know kind of a mulchy wood type Stuff it's going to decompose nicely and covered with shredded bark You never know that it's under there, but then when I go to dig and divide the perennials It's so much easier than if there was fabric under there And that fabric under there doesn't really allow the mulch always to do the the job that it was intended Man, of course, it's fun to have a path through the perennial garden so that you can kind of enjoy it Uh and get a little closer look Notice here the way that plants have been repeated throughout. Isn't that pretty that was this is one of the perennial gardens designed by that, uh, the the dutch designer pete oedolf And beautiful job that he does All right, here's another one of my favorites. I have really come to appreciate the browns of autumn You know when we think things are done. Well, they aren't really done after frost Look at how beautiful some of those are, you know, the textures the seed heads There's a lot of beauty in the fall The sun starts getting low on the horizon you get shadows and there's a lot of beauty natural beauty in That season and I mentioned too winter. I think is very beautiful if you have those perennial gardens there Now a couple of things, uh beyond Beyond the designing and again, uh, I couldn't There wasn't time to discuss too many of like my favorite type of perennials because that's a whole program in itself But I wanted to just mention, uh, a couple very briefly of care type things for a perennial garden Now many people ask me How do I know when you should dig divide move perennials because some things need to be moved in the spring or You know dug divided some things need to be dug and divided in the fall For example, if a neighbor has some really good things and you want some of them or vice versa Wendy, how do you know when to move these? Well, there's an easy way to tell When a perennial is blooming And and usually we can remember when perennials are blooming We know that peonies are blooming late May early June. Okay mom's bloom way in the fall. So okay, uh the most tender time On perennial the most sensitive time is when it's in full bloom That's the time it doesn't want its roots monkeyed with because that's very hard on so To know when to dig divide move a perennial you select the season that's opposite its bloom time For example, uh bleeding heart or blooming in May early June, uh, peonies also and so we uh, we do any digging dividing in the season opposite Which would be in the fall September is the time to dig and divide peonies So take if we take a look at mom's which bloom in the fall Those get dug and divided in springtime also hostile hostile generally bloom if if you let them Develop their flowers. They're usually uh end of summer Uh, maybe even September. So those are dug and divided in the springtime. So easy way to keep in mind just Uh, choose the season opposite of their blooming time Care of perennials in the fall of the year most perennial flowers survive winter better with the above ground portions left on In the fall of the year they winter better and also there are little pollinators Uh native type pollinators that over winter in the hollow stems of many perennials So leaving them intact in place really does help our pollinator situation Now there are a few types though that we should cut back in the fall of the year. We should remove the tops Uh, that includes um daily iris hosta Over winter they just turn to mush and so it's just so much easier to remove those in the fall of the year after a good hard freeze And uh peonies should be cut back all the way down to ground level or about an inch above In the fall of the year for disease sanitation, then those tops should be removed And if you have some perennials that are a little bit borderline and hardiness or you want to kind of Push the uh push the your hardiness zone a little bit protective mulch should be applied In early november after some frost is in the ground We we need to get the uh ground kind of cold and then we apply protective mulch And that will prevent freezing and thawing and moderate the winter temperatures also And just like that we have a beautiful perennial garden Now feel free to email me anytime Uh, my email is there donald dot kinsler at ndsu.edu I'll leave that on for just a second and then i'm going to stop sharing and i'll gladly entertain any questions that we have Thank you don got quite a few questions here What's a good guy to determine if a garden area is sun or shade? Oh good guide. Okay. Some um sometime we take these things for granted. So uh full sun is considered about eight hours of good direct sunshine So observe and about four to six hours is part sun part shade and if it's getting four hours or less then it's considered shade Can we use wood chip mulch in an iris bed to discourage weeds? Yes, uh now um to discourage weeds uh wood chip mulch or shredded bark It needs to be either really thick such as five to six inches or you need an underlayment underneath And something such as iris or peonies we can't get too thick right up around it Otherwise they get kind of smothered and rotting. So uh wood chips shredded bark But put some underlayment under it like I say I like cardboard You know talking about wood chip mulch On the country the wind blows like crazy Uh, you got any tips on how we can manage that? I actually like shredded bark A better than wood chips and there's kind of a difference sounds like the same product But uh the shredded bark shredded wood is more like slivers of wood Uh, and they mesh together better the actual chunks of wood do tend to blow and float around So there are actually two separate products and so i'm a big fan of the shredded instead of chipped Okay, this person has Out on the farm his dad's got a 70 year old peony bush. Can you you think he can transplant some of that bush? Yes, absolutely lots of people have moved uh their grandparents great grandparents peonies off of the homestead to Yep, and so the main thing is just do it in september around labor day Okay, don you've inspired a person here at least one that's for sure and he wants to Put in a perennial garden. How does he get started? Okay, first thing is to decide where you'd like Maybe start small with the idea of expanding then you can keep the weeds out under control So first thing would be if it's in a grassed area, you'll need to get rid of the grass And then go from there. So assess what your light sunlight situation is and start small and expand You know when people look for types of perennials available Like out in fargo. How do they how do they find out? Is there catalogs or magazines or How can you find out where a perennial is found? Yeah, well, I really like the locally owned garden centers As opposed to the national chains because national chains are sending truck loads kind of across the united states So I find the the best perennials generally at the locally owned garden centers They tend to be the special named varieties You know, I can't find buttered popcorn at the chain stores the day lily, but I can find a local garden centers So we can browse catalogs and and there are many good mail order catalogs on perennials So check with If you know some really good gardeners in the area check with them for some of their sources for their best mail order catalogs and then shop the locally owned Don, how do we keep weeds out of the perennial garden? Ah, that's a wonderful idea Our wonderful concept a wonderful question. How do you keep weeds out? Okay, um a couple of ways the preen weed Preventer the granules in the yellow and red box that is a weed preventer. It will prevent weed seeds From sprouting it won't prevent weeds. They're coming up from a perennial root. So it won't uh keep away crack grass Thistle, you know, etc And so a person has to be diligent with the hoe and the knife cutting them out Some things such as crack grass can be separated out of some perennials with a product called grass be gone and so use a combination of mulch hand weeding and Do some investigating or email me about some products chemicals that can be used chemicals need to be used with great caution And you mentioned there's such things as short lived and long live perennials How can what how can we determine? Are there a source of information for that or? Yeah, and uh, I should uh back track just a little bit on the weed control weed control is probably the greatest challenge with the perennial with perennial growing and yeah And we all work and struggle at that. Okay. So how to tell the difference between long lived and short lived the long lived perennials Yeah, you can you can do an online search Because there are some really good websites if you simply do an online search of long lived perennials and short lived perennials You'll find some good Good solid information. I always put the word university behind my search um long lived perennials University and then you'll come up with some really good information from our various universities on those So that's that's where I would find the information just search both Both and put university behind it Okay, how about is there good perennials that will work well mixed with roses? Yes, yeah in fact any Since roses love sun full sun full all day sunshine or at least Most day sun with a little bit afternoon shade. So almost any sun loving perennials will Work well with roses. Make sure you give the roses enough space. So the perennials aren't competing Sunways So this if you want to start with roses and you never grew one before what one would you recommend? Ah with roses my favorite are those developed in canada The canadiens had a great breeding program. There's the morden series and but there's a lot that are even better than that series one of my favorites is called campfire beautiful rose and So anyway the where I find a list of that I simply put in Roses developed in canada and then a wonderful list comes forth of these types like canada There's one called canada blooms And I I really love those canada roses. They're they're the heartiest that I've ever grown Is there a how do we find out which ornamental grasses are hearty in zone three? Uh ornamental grasses hearty in zone three I believe uh university of minnesota Check university of minnesota has a really nice Website on ornamental grasses. So if a person simply checked ornamental grasses university minnesota And that site lists the heartiness zones also between zones three and four because some are zone four and a little bit borderline for zone three Do any host is growing full sun? There are yep And that's where the descriptions either in a plant catalog or on the plant tag at the garden center will tell If they don't say grows well in full sun We can be fairly assured that they should be in shade If if full sun is is one of their advantages it will usually sell say that as a selling plant So but there are definitely some that do very well in full all day sun And what's your favorite perennial daisy for north dakota? You know, I I still like the shasta type daisy because there are the white daisy big white daisy with the yellow center because there are some new varieties that are a little shorter more dwarf bloom more longer And so I like the shasta daisy Okay How about if we use wood mulcher on the house? Is that a concern that our house is going to burn down someday? Not usually perennials like uh, that's a good question. That's a great question We we don't want I don't want to be the cause I don't want to be the cause of any house fires but What what happens with the with the wood mulch is it starts to decompose it stays fairly moist and And so I've never heard of a house fire and I know not my own use Where you're keeping it moist enough Um, I've never heard of that being a concern and uh Yeah How about uh, when you use wood chips, are you worried about introducing diseases into your perennial bed? No, um wood mulch seems to be such a natural plant friendly natural plant friendly material that it seems perennials just thrive in it versus open exposed soil There is one interesting thing though if your house is sided with white siding there is a There is a fungus that will glow grow called artillery fungus that can throw off little black items that will that will stain white siding And it uh, that fungus doesn't hurt the plants, but if you if you have white siding Um, then I've heard people using maybe pine needle mulch instead Because I I have I got got some reports of people wondering what are these little black specks on my siding? All right, how about artillery fungus? What kind of edging do you recommend for a perennial garden plastic brick or you know? I like I like again. It's personal preference. I like recycled bricks Uh, sometimes a person can find um bricks from a building that was taken down and those make really really nice natural type edging A plastic edging sometimes can pop up out of the ground over time and so it isn't quite as long lasting so I uh like something a little more um A little more permanent, but also the edging shouldn't be overly visible because it's the perennials that are the feature and not the edging Okay, um You know, we've uh, it's got any tips about keeping the grass that beautiful sweeping grass. He talked about how do we keep that out of the garden Yeah, how do you keep that out of there? Well, you know, uh, there are grass There are herbicides that are specific To grasses specifically kill grasses. Uh, one is ortho grass be gone Another is the bonite company Uh called grass beater and they will selectively kill grasses You of course don't want to get it on your ornamental grasses But you can spray those products right over the tops of an actively growing peony or other broadleaf type Um perennial and they're slow acting But they will take grasses the lawn grass or a quack grass out of perennials You last question this person is using that cardboard mulch method You talked about as he's trying to turn his lawn into a garden Do you suggest anything different when you plant native perennials since there wasn't established lawn underneath? No, I think uh, I don't think I don't know of anything specific that I would do um Natives, yeah, there's a great 10 to natives of course because they're um, so well adapted to our soil conditions But I don't think there would be anything else in transitioning a lawn to natives I don't think there's anything else that I believe you'd need to do Okay, done. Thank you for your talk tonight. It was just so beautiful. So beautiful flowers. Wow Okay, that's it for tonight everybody, but uh the spring fever forms continue And we will be next week. We're going to focus on having a healthy environment. We're going to talk about how to manage pests insect pests in flower gardens We're going to learn about be lawns. That's lawns that can attract pollinators and feed pollinators And then also we'll learn about soil and organic matter So we'll see you all next week at the spring fever garden forums. Good night everybody