 It was actually the first time I met Stardistic, who went on to write Back Orifice. But the two of us and Aleph 1 and White Knight and some other people, you know, ended up in Ludicrist, ended up in the desert outside of Las Vegas, filled to the gills on psychoactives with a bolt action shotgun and a trunk full of fireworks. And it was something straight out of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. It was really amazing, it's one of my best memories from going to DEF CON, but don't try this at home kids. Drugs and guns do not mix!