 Thank you so much for coming those in person and thank you so much for joining everyone on Zoom and in the cyberspace My name is Robin Riedel. I'm a fellow with the World Economic Forum and a partner at McKinsey And it's my honor today to kind of guide us through this session on the world economics from target through zero initiative We're on novel propulsion and aviation So for today, we have a number of things we're going to go through We're going to start with David Hyde who leads this program at the World Economic Forum to give some opening remarks Well, then I've Rob Miller from Cambridge University in the Whittle lab share some thoughts on the technical work He's done with his team on this topic in the last couple of months and then We'll have a demand statement announcement by a set of airlines who are looking forward to have this technology come out So that's going to be presented by David afterwards And then we'll jump into a panel discussion with a group of leaders in this space to talk about what is novel propulsion You know have as a promise and you know What can we look forward to but also what are some of the challenges? visit and then last but not least we're gonna have one of the Members of target to zero make an announcement around you know an aircraft that they're gonna bring to market So we very much look forward to that So with that David, please open us up. Thanks Robin and good morning everyone as Robin said I'm David Hyde and I leave the world economic forums target through zero initiative I'd like to thank all of you in the room for coming to our first ever in-person target through zero event and Thanks for everyone online for joining as well So I'm assuming most of you know but target through zero is an initiative of the world economic forum focused on the role of novel propulsion in aviation and This is obviously a very exciting time to be involved with novel propulsion. It seems like there's a new announcement every week There's a whole range of new companies getting into this space as well as a lot of work by the incumbent industry as well But alongside all of this excitement Actually a lot of the work that's being done is really important I think we can see from the turnout today the the attention that's been focused on cop and The general focus on aviation and sustainability in general that this is a really important issue And that if we are to address the impacts of climate change We need to start taking action now and that's especially true for aviation, which is one of the hardest to obey sectors As an industry we've come a long way just last month I after an eight-hag Demonstrated that the whole industry has now realized the importance of moving towards a net zero aviation system and In this last year We've seen a whole slew of announcements around sustainable aviation fuel Which is really starting to pave a way for how we can reach those goals those mid-century goals. We've set as an industry But the scale of the challenge mean means we need to keep up Being ambitious and push at the boundaries to get as far along in our decarbonization and our climate change addressing those impacts as we can Some of the technology we're going to talk about today holds huge potential for reducing the environmental impacts of aviation and Play a really important role alongside sustainable aviation fuels in helping aviation transition to a carbon neutral sector But that's not to say that any of this is going to be easy And that there's not a lot of uncertainty which we still need to address and that's really what target true zero was set up to address By bringing together players from all across the industry including the established OEMs the disruptors Airlines airports as well as other stakeholders using the forums convening power We can start to address some these unknowns and develop fact-based perspectives that will help build consensus on how we utilize novel propulsion within aviation We hope to be a thought leader in this area going forward and this discussion is hopefully a preview of some of those issues that we will address as a community in the future With that I'd like to hand it back over to Robin to introduce the rest of today Great, thank you David So one of the big unknowns I think around novel propulsion is what is technically actually feasible and what are some of the uncertainties was in that so As part of target through zero we've kicked off some work around how do we think about novel propulsion? What are those systems? What can they potentially deliver and what's kind of unrealistic was in that? So it's my real pleasure to invite Rob Miller to share some of the initial insights from that research, Rob. Thank you Thank you, Dan, share some of the insight from the team So If In this project we've built Really a model that works the whole system because you've got to think about these problem at a system of systems basis And we believe that only through a model such as this released to the public can anyone from a clever school child to a Person in government to a CEO see their place within the bigger system as David Mackay As I'm sure many of you know it with his carbon calculator on the Bayes website As done that has really changed the way the public engage with land-based energy and we're doing a similar thing So this when it's released in a few months will be the front page The model is evidence-based whole system and interactive and you can you can start the journey by clicking on it And I'll share a journey as we go But the model Starts with resourcing. So you've got your land use your electricity your water in Then you've got to work at how you produce your fuel So all the fuel routes have to be modeled. We have to understand the trls We have to understand the cost basis of each route We then go through distribution into airports journey from journey to network and from network to climate impact Forcing to contrails you have to model all that so we're not talking well to wake We're talking resource to climate. It's a much bigger question than well to wake So to do this you need two things and the first thing is you need good data in and through all of you as a community We've assembled a fantastic data set So the technology questionnaires over 80 have gone out and those technology questionnaires allow us to work out What the value of something is now? 2035 2050 to determine the uncertainty how that varies over time and how the Confidence of the person answering it varies and unless you understand that statistically It's hard to be able to judge uncertainty into the future The second thing is you need deep technology knowledge and deep social knowledge from a range of areas And as you'll see here the partners involved people from business schools To policy to chemical engineering plants and the industry partners so far are people who not Don't just meet us once every three months We have access to their deep technology team so we can ask them questions because the sum of technologies don't make a plane It's a it's a very technically constrained problem to get right So you have to be right at the heart of your model So before I go in and show you a sort of journey through the model and show you some of the insights I think that we've come out with target through zero You're not expected to read all of this But this gives you an idea of the fidelity of the model. So what you see across the top here is Ground-based emissions and in-flight emissions of greenhouse gas So everything from making a plane making the fuel leaks of hydrogen through Water vapor co2 in flight across the top row you see The fossil fuel so that's current and there's two sizes of circle the inner circle is The minimum and the larger circle the outside circle is the maximum so this is showing uncertainty through the model and As you see we go down through biofuels power to liquids Green and blue hydrogen down to battery electric and you can see we color all the other circles Green if they're better than the baseline and red if they're worse and one of the key takeaways here is the There's a lot of things that are better than the current situation, but the uncertainties are incredibly large in the bars And what we haven't got on here. This is greenhouse gas effects. We haven't got on here contrails if you add in contrails The picture becomes quite different The uncertainty involved in those contrails is large You may have ways of avoiding them avoiding those contrails in flight flying different routes changing out to do There's all ways of playing with that game So in a way, it's not as important as the first but it's critically important if you're going to solve the real problem And look at the size of the uncertainties that come in and as you move from co2 From kerosene contrails to hydrogen. There is literally nothing but computational data There's no real data on that so the uncertainties are incredibly large Okay, so that shows you the fidelity of the model. I thought I we'd take you through a trip and I We decided to run Washington to cop and this is like the model is Like kayak calm or Google flights, you know you log on you remember the public and you say I want to go from here I'd like to do it direct now You don't have to do it direct if you put on the model I'd like the number of stops it might select you flying the first leg battery Electric into a hybrid journey to a saff route it will find the route that's best for you and Equally airlines can run their whole models through this. So we've run models We run a Qantas model through it That's what to my fat and you could run regions like Europe through it if you want for total flights I've selected here direct because we're flying over water where it differs from Google flights as you can put in your future year So I've put in 2035 here and the reason for that is because it's a midpoint But also because it's the point when companies like Airbus Say zero e will be coming in so that's when your hydrogen aircraft start to come in at scale And that's also when we have the transition probably from blue to green hydrogen at scale So it's a really interesting time And I've decided to optimize for climate impact Now I can just press solve there with standard settings or I can go into the sub settings And in sub settings, I could choose the types of planes the advanced technologies I could choose whether I put them on the plane and I could choose the number of airports I want to optimize around across the world. I can Optimize where my actually sources from my fuel type and my fuel production So all those things can be changed to select What you're doing So back to the model so I'm gonna solve and I've solved Four journeys in 2035 on this route with four different fuels and I'll compare them So each one I've saved and then I've put up four models which are across the bottom And the bottom one is a kerosene in 2035 Then the one above is a blue hydrogen then a green hydrogen and then a power to liquid with direct air capture so those model one model two model three are Our new cases and then I have my baseline kerosene So as I've said before the model goes from resource to climate impact So we have a look at climate impact first. So if you take an economy seat, London, New York at the moment It'll be about just under a thousand kilograms of CO2 for that ticket This shows that with the data we've collected from the community It's now set set about 25 percent lower in that year if you just continue the same technology If you go to blue hydrogen you see a drop but there's a there's a big amount And I'll come to that in the production the blue bar and then there's two models The green hydrogen and the power to liquid with direct air capture, which I'll talk about in a little more detail In terms of resource you see you've got fossil fuel energy electricity and land use The important one to look at here is the electricity for power to liquid and green hydrogen So you can see they're both big the green hydrogen is coming out at about 25 percent less electricity than the power to liquid, but they're both large Interestingly if you take the power to liquid that value and you scale it across the world and you try and do today's flights Based on a power to liquid DAC solution That would require 40 percent more electricity in the world than we could reproduce So the numbers about big but it's big for hydrogen. There's no there's no way out of this this problem Okay, so I'm gonna zoom in on the power to liquid and the green hydrogen So I zoom in on those tickets and the top ticket You can see is power to liquid with direct air capture. So this is electrolysis of water with green Green renewable electricity to produce hydrogen direct air capture of carbon fish atrops produce a fuel swap it into a plane The bottom one is green hydrogen liquid. You've got to produce a whole new plane to do it So both are hard, but in different ways Now what I want to draw your attention to is Underclimate impact above and below the bars now the blue and the yellow bars You'll see these striped lines and they're the minimum and the maximum uncertainty bars running through the model and you see the incredibly large spread in them especially for the hydrogen combustion case and So the the key message here is that there is not a clear winner between the two But that the uncertainty involved at the moment with the best science available is large and needs to be reduced Okay, I'm gonna finish off with three insights I think from the model There's been a lot of insights when you look at it a whole systems perspective a lot of things jump out at you But but I've gone into three which I think you might be interested in so the first one I Plotted energy requirement in megajoules per passenger kilometer for a kerosene and hydrogen aircraft so The first one the first box is 2021 technology so that's all the technologies we've got at the moment We've put together and build a hydrogen plane and that's compared against current kerosene And then 2035 we design Airbus for instance has already announced and bred the other day you design a plane to do that process and This will involve as you see on the right Hydrogen tanks have to move the fuel has to move from the wings to the body the tanks are heavy The size of the tanks are large So we'll start off at the beginning. So you got kerosene You have a three bars for each And those three bars are the energy that's reduced in flight in fuel production and in liquefaction and transport So if you look at the first one hydrogen one This is taking the plane that currently flies Across the transatlantic and putting the hydrogen tanks in it. So it pushes out passengers You drop out 50 percent of your passengers Look at the rise in the energy per passenger mile the amount of extreme renewable electricity you'd have to do But the uncertainty in our model came through as high as well So we then took a larger plane that would fly further But we retrofitted it with the tanks to keep the number of passengers the same as the original kerosene Look at the way the bar drops in the second one So there's an incredible Sensitivity we saw through the model in the design of the aircraft so at 2035 So we built into the model an aircraft design system So now when you choose your technologies and tanks it designs you an aircraft and at that point see what happens You find that the hydrogen aircraft at 2035 drops down in energy in flight to very similar To the kerosene aircraft Remember the kerosene aircraft dropped by 25 percent relative to 2021 because the technologies have got better So the key message here is it's important when thinking from a systems perspective that you You redesign the plane to fit with the technologies that you're putting in and the other message is that this isn't just the case transatlantic Because of the lower weight of hydrogen even when you pot the tanks in There's a good chance that hydrogen aircraft will get better with range. There's still an uncertainty We don't know that but you could see a future where very long-range hydrogen large aircraft are flying between large hubs And that that is does seem from the model to be a feasible solution within the bounds of the uncertainty Okay, the second one is blue versus green hydrogen and I've plotted here climate impact in co2 equivalent And we've got kerosene blue hydrogen and green hydrogen So I'm starting off with the kerosene case and you'll see the little green one is The fuel production co2 then the transport and then you've got co2 in flight and non co2 in flight the contrails and other effects Now you'll see the large uncertainty bar on the top now move across the blue hydrogen now You notice that green bar a shut up and In fact the green bar in production for the blue hydrogen is nearly as large as the co2 in flight in a kerosene aircraft And the uncertainty on it is large and the reason for that is because of the methane that's released and The co2 that can't be captured in the process and when you average that over a hundred years That effect is not far off what the co2 so a message here is you've got to accelerate Green hydrogen through rather than blue but more importantly a Lot of the fuel routes are doing this as you're putting different bio fuel routes in It depends where you get your source whether it comes from waste or from from biomass You've got to track where you're transporting it around the world to get to the whole system Okay, so finally Battery aircraft range so this looks complicated, but but actually it's quite a simple story When we looked at the model Battery electric range comes down to two things and one you know the first one's obvious Which is the energy specific energy of the batteries you want the highest specific energy but also The weight of the empty weight of the aircraft when you take the batteries off and you take the people off It's a key driver. So you're pushing those down Now the reason I've shown this is because when we looked at all the data we collected from you as a community We found a bimodal distribution So there's a collection of incumbents and OMEs who are sitting on a point Which is a higher structural matter empty weight of aircraft and a lower specific Energy of battery and then a new entrance community who are very different in their beliefs Now that doesn't mean you know one one has actually certified aircraft But the other one is vertically integrating these things to make technology breakthroughs And this has a massively non-linear effect on the range you can get out of these aircraft So the diagram shows maximum range on the on the left y-axis and maximum operating range on The right y-axis. So we've taken out the reserve It's it's up to argument what that reserve would be, but we've set it this value The red all the red is community one the OMEs data sheets that have come in and You see they're saying a certain weight of aircraft And then they've got a certain spread of battery density, which they believe and then you've got community two which is saying That shifted across and is a lower weight aircraft And when you look at the difference between these you see you move from an aircraft That's probably about a hundred miles range and is useless To one that's going up to more like close to 200 kilometers operating range And I think what's important here to understand is how technology Focus within the new in new entrant community can unlock change Unless you really concentrate on vertical integration on some of these problems You're not going to unlock these changes so To conclude while there's no clear winner between the different paths yet The model shows immense opportunity can be unlocked through focus technology development And we believe a key on the key to unlocking change is to engage all of you and the wider community in an interactive evidence-based whole system understanding of the aviation sector If you're interested at getting involved with the model, please do contact Beth on Beth Barker on the email address And and and we'd love to have you as involved as you want to be. Thank you Thank you so so much Rob and for all your leadership and You know presenting today and also building building the model and driving the thinking forward on that very helpful With that, I think you know, we've heard the technology side I think next we're going to talk about the demand side and there's a number of airlines out there who have made Announcements around wanting this technology who've made orders and David is now going to share a demand statement by a set of airlines Who's who target true zero have come together to you know make a statement around this David, please? Thanks Robin. So Hi again everyone I'm very pleased to use this event today to share what we think is the first ever Announcement by airlines to utilize novel propulsion systems to address their climate change impacts So for this we brought together a coalition of airlines right across the sector representing international carriers Larger low-cost carriers all the way down to regional and commuter airlines Those airlines represent over 800. Sorry operate over 800 aircraft currently Transported over a hundred and seventy seven million passengers in 2019 and On almost two million flights. So it's a it's a really significant group of airlines. We've managed to bring together for this These airlines recognize the Importance of novel pull novel propulsion if we are to attempt to tackle climate change as an industry And looking at some of the success we've had with SAP and demand statements there These airlines feel that we need to show the same ambition when it comes to utilizing novel propulsion So to do that they made various commitments The first is to evaluate how their existing and future route networks can be optimized to make use of these technologies The second and this is obviously the big headline commitment is working towards 30% of the aircraft They incorporate into their fleets for the shorter range routes from 2030 onwards utilizing novel propulsion Systems recognizing that it's going to be the shorter routes where the innovations are going to take place first But hopefully as the technology matures, we can also see that same goal realized for longer range aircraft These aircraft are obviously understand we need to use a portfolio approach if we are going to introduce these technologies So looking at both new aircraft acquisitions as well as the retrofit of their existing fleets and Finally, they're committed to support in the development of these technologies by continuing to work with Target True Zero and the World Economic Forum and engage in with other stakeholders, too These airlines also realize however that Achieving these these goals can't be done alone So in making this commitment We are us and them are also asking for other stakeholders to play their part in helping realizing the the opportunities that these technologies present So we have asked the government to set the regulatory and policy frameworks that will allow this goal to be met As well as other parts of the industry as well So that's aerospace manufacturers who will be have to produce these vehicles As well as airports who can help set incentives for them to be operated and finally for other airlines as well to join this Community and really send that demand signal that airlines do want to make use of these technologies as and when they become available So I'd just like to Finish with obviously these are the airlines we have Taken part very excited to see as I said such a range of players from across the industry Both household names but also a lot of innovative smaller airlines as well Who are really looking to capitalize on the potential that these technologies have to offer So thank you very much and back over to you Robin Thank you so much David and thank you so much for the allies who also in the room today for for joining this this commitment I think it's a strong signal for the community that there is a real need and a real one for these type of solutions So thank you All right was that we're going to move into the panel part of this this day and I'm excited to invite our panelists up here So please please join me at the front and I'll quickly do the introductions here. So we'll have We'll start with David Morgan of easy jet with Diana from Alaska Airlines Mark from Airbus we got Roy All right, we got John from Universal Hydrogen Roy from Magni X and Sergey from zero avia, so thank you so much for joining us today for this discussion Thank you for your leadership in this industry So maybe to get us kicked off Let me ask you what might seem like a simple question, but obviously it's loaded And so what are some of the biggest challenges that you know? We're facing and you're facing from your organization's point of view as we think about novel propulsion and going to you know True zero kind of solutions and why don't we just start with you John and we'll go down the down the line Robin that that's such a a negative question to start with what are the problems? I mean, I think we should start with you know, what are the opportunities and you look at this panel everything you need for true zero Carbon aviation is here. You have the airline customers. You have motor propulsion. You have the air framers You have the startups building building zero carbon plane planes So I'm not going to take the bait on that with Robin. We've got everything we need here to be to be successful Thank you for that framing Love the optimism from John I'll come up with perhaps some some challenges from a kind of short medium-haul airline perspective where I think we're probably looking at hydrogen as being the sort of mainstay For us and I think getting that the infrastructure in place there to scale up green hydrogen will be one of the biggest challenges It's it'll be great having a zero emissions Hydrogen aircraft, but if there's not enough sufficient supply of Affordable green hydrogen available then then the thing doesn't work I think secondly getting the the investment in the tech Right at this early stage is going to be vitally important because it's this next few years I actually really count and it's going to take some years to production eyes and certify and do all the other stuff You have to do to put an aircraft on the line So this next few years is going to be really important So we need we need lots of investment with any government support and so on to to actually start looking at the detail with all of the Fuel tanks and everything else that we've got to do to make this all happen and then I think finally getting the right regulatory framework in order to make sure that that Early adopters of this tech and by doing so I think it would be you know Unthinkable that you you go out and you you try and do the do the right thing But you're operating more expensive lead perhaps than then a competitor decided to sit back and do nothing and is just accepting that Okay, I'll take a bit of taxation, but I'm done kind of thing So we've got to make sure that the right regulatory framework is in place to be able to make sure that we're not disadvantaged for that Diana Well from another operators perspective and for those of you that don't know Alaska Airlines were the fifth largest airline in the United States We fly largely domestically as well as in North America. We did have one of our Liveries on the ground here in Glasgow a couple weeks ago for the Boeing eco demonstrator. So that was fun But similarly the the economics just have to work that sort of baseline I think and the same goes for SAF as well, but on all of these technologies We've got to figure out the long-term economics. There's a couple of other things that I'd add just to build on those comments one is You know, we have a great set of orders for future airplanes. We We need a retrofit solution as well as new technology for new aircraft because you don't change over aircraft that are working well and there's a different sustainability problem with retiring aircraft early We're thrilled to bring the Boeing max into our fleet right now But as we look to our regional fleet we want to continue to evolve that and that's got to include a retrofit solution the two other things That I would add one is the infrastructure on the ground so that we can make all options available But efficiently within airports. We don't want airport costs just to go up As a way of moving toward this future and then certainly on the certification side Making sure that we are investing in sort of the right knowledge and capacity at certification entities Around the world so that these technologies can be brought into the pipeline efficiently Thank you having heard from the operators here mark as the big OEM. What's your view? It's good to listen to the operators It gives us a even more enthusiasm to go in this direction of true zero aircraft As you know in our bus we are working on three concepts today for introducing the first commercial Aircraft which is really zero emission and when we say zero emission. It's not only Zero CO2 emission, but we are looking at the other emissions Nox and we are looking at contrails so that we really have An aircraft with a minimum impact on the environment To be successful we have three key pillars to address The first one is a technology The second one in the fuel and the third one is what we call the ecosystem, which means also All policies and regulation around that On technology side as their bus we have seen that we have to pass ways sustainable aviation fuel and P2L for that we just need to go to 100% soft capabilities on our aircraft and We already have flown with 350 or 319 We are very confident that we'll be able to achieve that before 20-30 and the second one is really a step change to go to Hydrogen aircraft and on that of course there are some new challenges But I would say the technology part is totally no-hand and so we can be very confident in that and every day We are more and more confident in the capabilities to develop these technologies and Implement this new way of flying in the in the market and we have Billions of is mentioned and hundreds of engineers working on it On the fuel we have seen very clearly that we did green hydrogen Of course, I would say If you don't use a decarbonized fuel you will never go to net zero and for that We need it did a large production of Electricity and decarbonized electricity. This is not specific to aviation We have to replace 80% of energy which is coming from fossil fuel to a decarbonized world when there is something else And this something else is decarbonized electricity So the amount of investment and I think the way in some reports describe it very well The inverse in in you clean energy is fundamental for all the economic system And by the way, the need for trucks will be superior to the need for aviation And the need for cars everybody is speaking this Corp to switch record will be much higher than the one for aviation. So there is a global Issue which is to be able to switch as fast as possible for us is 2035 and We need that time to develop the technology But it is the time you need to have this global Evolution of the energy supply to be transformed and to be able to produce enough Green hydrogen for for aircraft. It is also of course to develop the infrastructure And we are working with airlines and airports to create hydrogen hubs and so create a network And it will need some time as well starting with road transport so these sums will be to produce hydrogen for for ground transportation and we can see a fast development and then for aviation and We need some some regulation of course. We will have to certify this new technology We will have to to have a global Regulation for the use of hydrogen as Stockage of hydrogen and so on and if we could get all these some incentives sometimes To encourage this we can see some for for SAF we do hope that we have for hydrogen as well Then we can be successful So if we can't put this together and I think we put this together and here and it's not Specific to aviation what we are discussing today. We can go to true zero here again It's not net zero. It's true zero which make also a difference. We think thank you Roy is one of the world largest aviation You know motor manufacturers and leaders What's your view on this overall question of challenges to get to the next level here my view is we have a lot of excuses As an industry we love to provide a bunch of excuses on why we can't do something the business case the SAF isn't in supply the Batteries aren't good enough. I'm 50 years old and by the time these 2050 commitments that have been said here in Glasgow over the last two weeks happened I'll be 79 and At that point I'll have only be able to say I remember being back then when the commitments were made and no action was taken And so if we're at cop 26, let's talk about policy makers The way to solve all of the challenges around this this room is to have policy in place and Real policy not commitments that by 2050 will have less emissions because if there's no action behind it There's not going to be an action because no one here's incentivized to do it We all talk the nice talk, but until there's an incentive to do it It won't be done and the incentive can be policy if there's one thing policy makers should be doing Is setting policy so what if for example countries around the world said that by 2030? nine years from now not 20 years from now or 29 years, but nine years from now by 2030 10% of worldwide flights by miles must be zero emission Put a line in the sand See what happens the beauty of the free economy is that this group will rise to the occasion if We are forced by government that 10% of all worldwide mile flights Will be done at zero emission. Guess what the operators will come screaming at the rest of the manufacturers You're saying where's my technology the technology groups will run to the investors and say show me the money Because it's now law and the investors will know they will have a return because it's law We have to have policy makers set policy and stop being afraid of putting real lines not in the sand But in concrete Because as long as we try to rely on this being some sort of innovation economy will be a 2050 I'll be 79 years old and I'll have to embarrassly tell my grandchildren how we sat here and did nothing but talk So governments set policy and we will make sure they are fulfilled Thank you right for that passionate plea Serious tough one to follow but you know as one of the OEMs That's that's working on a hydrogen retrofit aircraft and powertrain overall your perspective exactly, so it's hard, you know, to add You know anything on top of this commitment, which we heard about and that lots of passion, which we just heard But we are going through this journey of introducing a hydrogen electric Into the market and four things stand out first of all, of course the support of R&D, which is needed not only from from the Investors from the private investors, which we are very thankful for their support But also from the governments because if you think about this the new technologies We went when they got developed for example, you know the turbines and You know that the current airspace technology they came on the back of big military spending big Government and intergovernment Spending programs which very often are missing, you know in what we're doing So again the support of different R&D programs and maybe not only hydrogen electric But also other technologies as well so that Then Rob and he vices the governments We'll have I guess more data points and those You know Error bars and or uncertainties will shrink to to the medium so that when When you advise the government you can say, okay, this is what works what what doesn't because you know from the research Even if it was great that all the simulations which you shown Today, it's hard to make the policy decision, right? so the second point is the certification efforts which we are going through because The in order to certify the new powertrain you need to go through very similar routes to To the certification of the existing aircraft and the existing powertrain But very often the regulation doesn't exist again So we we are working with different civil aviation authorities to Actually learn the journey how to actually certify the novel Propulsion the third thing is and you know This is this is great that the airlines are you know signing this this is great documents But I think that it would be great to to hear what what we just heard from Roy that support from them or incentives from the governments and support from the governments so that The airlines are doing it just not from from the goodwill From the desire to live in a sustainable future, but also, you know the governments needs to show that they're serious And the last but not the least is of course what we already heard today is the infrastructure challenge So we have already done the miniature holistic hydrogen Ecosystem at one of the small airports here in the UK and we are going to of course do more of that Both both here in Europe and the States and around the world, but this is You know we need to generate the green hydrogen, right? We need to to make it available and available cheaply, okay, and so that all the projections or projections which which different Electrolyzer manufacturers are showing to us we would like them to be real, okay? and then The economics will work the economics will work and we will see the hydrogen which is You know projected in 10 in 10 years to be in a $1 per kilogram And with that we will deal with the jet fuel hands down Thank you John, can I bait you in a comment on this or your well? well, I Roy you had me at the no more excuses, but then you lost me when you said well, but we need policy, which is just another excuse there's no excuses at all and None of these excuses. I think Are are gonna prevent this from happening hydrogen production first of all it's not gonna be at the airports I mean some airports will be able to do it, but look we're not gonna be say we we need the electrolyzers We're gonna build the airport That's not how green hydrogen is going to be built. It's gonna be producers like Fortescue It's going to be getting the air liquids to turn around the shells and the BP's the people that really know how to make Energy and I mean not to do a plug, but we just signed MOU with Fortescue they've agreed to produce hydrogen where aviation needs a green hydrogen so Production not an excuse Infrastructure has been the excuse for hydrogen aviation for 40 years and you can distribute gas Hydrogen is a gas you can distribute the way you distribute every gas through modular storage, which is what we were doing I will give you hydrogen Zerhavia Airbus, I will give you hydrogen where you need it anywhere in the world and the quantities that you need it There is no infrastructure excuse anymore. There's no Aircraft excuse anymore got three people up here building an aircraft that's going to be available it within the decade and and Roy's motor too and Alaska and Raven and Iceland air in our nostrum have committed to fly Zero carbon planes. This is happening. There are no more excuses. It's happening and the people on this panel are making it happen So these guys deserve the applause not Roy Thank you, John. So to bring back the spirit of collaboration What one question that I have for you guys is you know as we're building this community of players that need to work together at this Ecosystem what else can we do as you know an aerospace industry, but also airlines, you know You know infrastructure player airports to really accelerate that what are the kind of things that either you wish to see from some of Your peers or some of the things you wish, you know other parts of the ecosystem would step forward with so maybe we'll start Right in the middle as you mark and kind of go go down to the left and then come over here I think there is already a big momentum which come from the airline association and the Global surrounding to go to net zero in 2050. So this is the first thing and I think in the two last year this momentum has criminally interest and In the aviation sector, I think we really are now all convinced That we'll have to go in this direction. No, I think it will be built step by step And there is a logic behind that Today we are selling aircraft that will fly for 20-30 years and we can see in the first presentation that Sustainable aviation fuel first coming from the biomass and then what we call P2L Scientific fuels could be could be a good solutions to get closer to to net zero and with a good fuel probably we can reach something which is very close to zero for these aircraft that are Sold now now we know also that the volume of feedstock is limited So we have to start with that, but we will reach the limit of that Probably quite soon and and there is a web study show it that Coming from biomass we could reach the limit in 20-30 which is not that far Then we have to go to to P2L, but here again, and it was very well explained to go to P2L You need to produce hydrogen first then carbon capture and then put everything and And and there will be a massive demand for that because all airlines are committed to go in this direction Which means that it will stimulate the production of hydrogen of green hydrogen But when you have a green production enough production why not going directly to to to H2 aircraft and then you have Start building an ecosystem, which is which is very efficient So I think the global momentum in is that including in the energy sector. You're right Everything is moving in this region both for saffron hydrogen They we are part of the hydrogen concede we can see that in every country in the world This is developing fast that plant so this ecosystem will grow progressively and the momentum I think in the industry will come with that step by step and of course as a manufacturer We have convinced and we have to convince them that we have the technology to do that And then of course in our time scale before 2045 there will be some tests and demonstrations to get confident in this new Technology and then be able to put it in the market. So this is the vision We have on how it it will happen not in one day, but step by step with a larger and larger Momentum in the community for my perspective it's really about the Practicalities and realities of the industry and as much as I like the example of Washington DC to London that represents less than 30% of worldwide flights 70% over 70% of worldwide flights are less than a thousand miles in range In fact 50% of worldwide flights are less than 500 miles in range So the majority of people want to and fly short distances and in fact the short distance is also as I have alternatives I came here from Seattle. I had no alternative not true. I could sail But you know it wasn't the most efficient or productive thing to do had I gone on a three week or three month Sales trip to arrive here and then back so flying is an alternative And it's actually a fairly good alternative both economically and environmentally given that there are there aren't a lot of options But when I fly New York to DC or LA to San Francisco There are a lot of alternatives London to Paris Manchester London There are a lot of alternatives and people still fly and it's those short routes that the people on this panel have solved So from that perspective, I would love as an industry for us to stop thinking about the minority of flights That don't have a short-term solution. There will not be an electric 737 for the next 30 years. There won't There may be a hybrid one maybe a hydrogen-based one But an all-electric pure electric it won't happen. And so let's focus on what can happen Let's replace London to Paris Paris to Nice Switzerland internal flights German UK US. Let's replace the short flights It was mentioned that a hundred miles isn't a lot five percent of worldwide flights are less than a hundred miles in range and they're done with Large inefficient aircraft for those ranges. So I would say as an industry on the contrary Let's focus on what's practical if we can in the next five years start flying short range aircraft as electric and Let the inefficient large aircraft Fly where they are efficient over a thousand miles over two thousand miles Let's at least separate the industry to allow that to happen that will open up more routes for more people It will lower the cost of flying which means more access for more people the smaller the airplane The more airports it can fly in and out of operating again and opening up more access to people Let's take a practical route to get to zero emission starting with what's Available today and not what may be available 40 years from now. That would be our perspective Thank you, sir. Okay, so for us. I would say three words and One is support believe and be practical similar to what Roger said So thank you Alaska for supporting us and believing us Now I am on the practical side. I think it's What is important is to make these? incremental stage steps and and do the demonstrators and It's great to think about what will happen, you know in 2035 and that we will have bigger aircraft flying and in 2015 what we believe in is that if you think about two years ago, nobody talked about hydrogen, okay? Now hydrogen is one of the one of the hardest topics but until And zero other included, you know, we started to fly small aircraft Nobody thought that it was practical now, you know, we will work on the 19th seat aircraft and you know larger aircraft and We need to show we need to do the demonstrators and And when when we show the big bigger aircraft flying on hydrogen I think that it will it will bring this step the phase transition in in the industry and there will be lots and lots more believers and We will see it happen We go John and then David and Diana well, I See want to respond to that that you know Hydrogen aviation is not new. It's been around since since the 80s since the 50s The excuse has always been the lack of infrastructure and the cost and those aren't barriers any longer So it can happen now. So I think the most important thing now is to get that message across And what are the what are the barriers to that message to that truth? I think it's us. I think it's our industry It's it's the sort of vested interests in the industry that are unwilling to To accept a new type of fuel but to really decarbonize. That's what we need So I think it's a message problem both for our industry and then for the general public to explain to them that there are solutions and what the solutions mean and what the safety profile of the solutions are and Also Third is is the regulatory regime and I think there need to be more regulators There needs to be more funding of regular regulars because they are overwhelmed right now and there's too much coming at them And that's not a good place for the industry to be Yeah, I mean a couple of things from me really I think certainly from an airlines perspective I think the time for talking in high-level rhetoric is is is over frankly and it's time now to commit To you know to to a pathway which is which is credible today easy jet committed to join race to zero So we are committed to publishing a science-based target trajectory And I think that's when you can hold yourselves to account and future leaders of the of the the industry and Took to account in in delivering on on those targets and there's a whole bunch of stuff within that That we're gonna have to do right from today Even what long before we get to you know a hydrogen aircraft, you know along that pathway and I think you know just to to throw a challenge out to my friend on on the shorter range flights actually, you know Airlines like ourselves fly a lot of short range flights with big aircraft because that is the most economical way of doing it So I think we would throw the challenge out to industry to say build us a bigger aircraft bigger zero missions aircraft as Quickly as you possibly can because we know that's how the numbers work particularly when you're you're dealing with with slot constrained airports in Primary airports in cities and so on. There's a very good reason why we don't see 20-seater aircraft operating into your Paris and London The moment because there's simply, you know, it doesn't work from it from an economic perspective so we encourage industry to To to move as quickly as possible into that kind of narrowbody range, which will have the biggest impact from a climate perspective as well Anna Well a couple things I first of all I agree with David's point that we are in execution mode I think a lot of us a lot of our companies a lot of airlines have put out their goals for Where we intend to get and it's going to take time But but now we're in execution mode and so you know We are making new commitments and new you know announcements and those sorts of things But we've got to get stuff done. I would respectfully counter John's assertion that challenges or excuses I think some of them could be but if you face them head-on as challenges They really are things you can tackle together and I think we you know at Alaska we tend to we talk about this idea of realistic Optimism right that like we can be optimistic and see the future But we have to look at sort of dead in the face soberly to understand what the challenges are that we are going to have To overcome to get there and I think all of us the places where we agree is that we have to overcome those challenges So just two other points. I think we established a five-part path to net zero and we do believe You know as you said that all parts of that have to be accomplished That includes operational efficiency avoiding using fuel in the first place where we don't have to use it Those aren't sexy changes, but they are very critical Percentage changes meaningful steps. The second one is fleet renewal Which I talked about with bringing the 737-9 into our fleet the third one sustainable aviation fuel And we want to get to power to liquid and we will use what is available today because it's available And we need to build that market. The fourth is novel propulsion, which is why we're sitting here And to the point about demonstrations we Zero Avia is working with a 76 seat aircraft For of the that is an Alaska aircraft to demonstrate the ability to fly that zero emissions In the future and we're really excited to see how that turns out as well as all of the manufacturers that are represented here because I Think we can create the ecosystem the supply chain this the hydrogen John as you talked about And it will take all of those steps to get from here to there So the last point I'll say and it kind of goes back to the point about messaging Both David and we have guests that fly on our airplanes And so they there is a sort of a two-part path to engage guests in there as we call them passengers We call them guests in the journey part one is just getting people to care about it The corporate entities that are flying for business care deeply about avoiding scope 3 emissions, which are our scope 1 emissions We need to make sure that individuals are thinking about that too and then the second one As you said John is helping people understand what technology is available what it means from a safety and certification perspective And that's all the way from operational efficiency up through novel propulsion That's going to be a journey, but I think it's one that we are all on together and helping it seem simple helping it seem Accessible and real we know that our guests actually respond More meaningfully to reducing plastic waste than sustainable fuel or novel propulsion Because it's something you can see feel and touch and so making novel propulsion and sustainable fuel equally compelling I think is sort of the next part of the challenge. So There are a lot of challenges that doesn't mean that we can sort of say oh that means we don't have to do it It means we've got to settle up and figure out how to tackle them Thank you So what one question I wanted to ask each of you is if there was one misconception around Novel propulsion from your organization's perspective that you would love to clear up with the public What would it be the one thing that you feel is either constantly quoted wrong in the media or where there's just a misconception overall And if there isn't any that's great, but wanted to open up to you if there is a misconception you would like to clear up What would it be? Go around the misconception is that it's novel Hey Electric motors have been around for a very very long time We each have blenders at home washing machines dishwashers Many of us now have electric cars Electric motors is not a new thing and it's been around for a long time We just haven't put them on airplanes yet In fact, there have been many that have put them on airplanes But even now we've between the group here We've been flying them for over 18 months now and I'm not talking about two passenger planes Talk about five nine twelve passenger aircraft that have been flying electric And so the idea of continuously calling it novel and some sort of oh, that's a cool science fiction thing Is one of the messaging problems. What do you want to call it a propulsion system and electric propulsion system? That's it and as long as the airlines continue to look at it as novel and maybe one day Then that'll be a challenge. What we need to do is change the way consumers See the options and as long as we feed them options that are based on today's airline environment They will continue to see it as some sort of science fiction thing if we show the flying public what it could look like Flying short distances not from and you're right Paris to London downtown downtown It's probably not a good example, right because you can fill an 8 3 20 there every half hour No problem, but there are multiple routes out there that aren't getting filled and are being canceled just this week Multiple airlines have canceled routes to smaller communities across the United States. It's happened here as Europe as well Because it's no longer economic Well, it's not economic for the people that just lost their one connection to the rest of the economy They now have to travel for hours on the road to try and get their goods out their kids to school Whatever their challenge now is and so the economic aspect is a bigger question than just what makes a dollar for an airline Or for a manufacturer, so we need to as an industry change that paradigm shift And so to me that's the one misconception that it's some sort of science fiction activity Thank you So for us, of course working with hydrogen it's it's safety topics right so we have Tens of thousands of cars in the streets driving on hydrogen and we're using I mean the jet fuel is very energy dense and you know, we it's confined in very thin aluminum tanks and nobody's thinking about that right and Instead they're using the tanks Hydrogen tanks, which are you know, you can shoot the 45 caliber weapon and No And and they've been tested and you know, there is no explosion or anything so the safety concerns I think that they need to be fleshed out with the public and the second thing is I think that with all the novelty we have a path to actually make it cheaper so the Economic aspect of introduction of the novel technologies, right? So it is it is actually It's actually it can be a reality that we will save the airlines quite a bit of money to operate our trains So those two things I think you know needs to to be fleshed out Other other misconceptions you would like to clean up David one that will never happen It's just too difficult the challenge and I think you know mankind is our fantastic problem solvers And it just in the last Two years alone. We've seen some incredible Speed of change in technology and and everybody's looking for solutions now So I'm much more optimistic about the rate of change which we will see this technology coming in That then I was even two years ago So, you know if we continue the momentum and it's you know stuff like this that we're doing We'll only well help to support that so I think Forget that it won't happen. It's gonna happen. It's just a question of when it will happen Mike. Yes, what we observe in the media is a mixed of interest and skepticism Interest because this is new and It goes a little bit against you know the image of aviation, which is a misconception the benefits of aviation for the economy for for for the way of living Mixing the population Unifying the world etc I mean all these benefits are not very present in the global media and so on and And and to propose something and to show that aviation I can really be a part of this new economy with a green mobility is Lifting a little bit The vision about aviation, but at the same time there is a reaction of criticism. Okay, but is it really a reality? And we have seen that last year when we have launched this free concept of aircraft between 100 to 100 packs and 1000 to 1000 nautical mines, which can be really a step change We have seen a lot of interest and then a wave of skepticism, but I think it's a little bit Normal to to to see that and so I would like today to Get benefit of this interest and then of course we love to to Win trust from our customer first and from the public then that yes We are able to introduce a change and support the trajectory of the operators to really go to to net zero as soon as possible And with passengers that would be proud to fly I'll add one this conversation has made me reflect on the and I appreciated the messaging point But also, I mean if you think about sort of we've talked about electric hydrogen SAF Pto it's confusing and I think there is a misconception that we're all seeking one right answer And there's a lot of answers the one right answer is getting to zero emissions and net zero and and I say this Self-aware that I'm responsible for communications at my company. So I need to work on this myself But I do think that we have a collective challenge to be able to figure out how to simplify Some of how we talk about these technologies so that they can be more easily understood and accepted Anything you want to add to that John from a misconception perspective? No, I I think that's a that's exactly right and whatever everyone said and the question is Who the public is? right who the public's are what's what different spheres we need to influence and Who speaks for the industry and how we can we can deliver that message that it's a that the effort That the goal is zero-carbon aviation and there are many ways to get there So I nominate Diana Sorry, you had a follow on yeah One point and it was mentioned briefly on safety there is a misconception conception out there that we can do whatever we want So we can choose to put batteries on a plane hydrogen cell tickets and happy people fly Aviation is one of the most regulated industries in the world and You know if anyone here is an alien and landed on earth and ask hey, how do you guys go fly around this planet? And we say well we put you in a little tube We fill it with one of the most combustible liquids found and then we light it It would be kind of okay, I will return to my planet But we're used to that why because the regulatory authorities have required a level of safety In order for people to buy tickets and fly and we as an industry have adhered to that The same thing with happen will happen with electric or the newer or different types of propulsion It doesn't matter if it's liquid hydrogen gaseous hydrogen lithium ion batteries. It doesn't really matter We will not be able to as an industry have anyone buy a ticket on that aircraft before it's been proven to be at least as safe If not more so than what's out there today So that's one misconception that's out there is that we can do whatever we want We will have to prove safety before anyone can fly on these aircraft. Well well said I Know about out of time that there's one last question I want to ask all of you maybe maybe briefly, but what gives you optimism and hope that you know We'll tackle all these challenges and actually get this out there and you know change the world and decarbonize Maybe John will start with you and just go down the Yeah, I mean I I think it's everyone in the city today and Everyone protesting and speaking up. I mean we don't we don't have a choice anymore and that's pretty great Yeah, I think society will demand it from us and you know You won't be able to dodge this any longer. So we're gonna have to get on with it But also on a I'm like I mentioned before I'm just very encouraged by the direction Which it's it's gathering speed now and I'm very confident that we will be able to solve these issues And perhaps quicker than we expect Yeah, I think it's conversations like this. It's the incredibly rapid pace of technology accelerates accelerating The accelerated interest from policymakers as well And then I passed a group of school kids Scottish school kids on my way over here that we're all wearing capes that they decorated with various messages and a painting of the earth and Their minds are pretty open to how we might fly or how we might use energy and that's great There's a whole new consumer set that's gonna learn along with us and be ready to fly these aircraft Right, yes two things first in the this is a must we have to do so but as a bus You know, I said we have hundreds of people working on that on many topics Their enthusiasm their passion their creativity They're willingness to really to achieve this. I think they are aware that part of very interesting story today, which is You know satisfying their engineer side But also to be part of the the movement of the society and so this this is a strength I think in your new airlines and your different companies as This is a strength To go forward but for us. Yes, it's really a source of optimism Roy what makes you hopeful the fact that it's not an aviation industry initiative That's what makes me hopeful And what I mean by that is there have been a lot of aviation initiatives in the past You know the VLJ the very light jets that will do air taxi on demand in the two thousands There's a lot of industry initiatives that fall by the wayside because of our own To John's point. We like the way things are done I mean look at the changes that have happened in propulsion the amazing changes and I say that tongue-in-cheek Since 1939 the jet engine is pretty much the same there've been some incremental Improvements, but it's pretty much the same the turbine or the piston the same as it was You know when the Wright brothers started flying with some incremental changes The fact that this is now not an industry initiative. This is an industry replying to the Generation of my kids who are saying enough right the demonstrations that happened here last week with I think they said a hundred thousand young people saying enough To us, you know enough of saying why you can't do it. Just do it to me. That's what really drives the optimism Sergey for closing for us awareness of of the public and and the support in And actually commitments by different governments, but also the the availability of Examples which which come from the different industries. So for example Elon Musk is Is is leading this and then shows that things like you know bringing completely new technology is possible and now everybody all the big guys are falling and of course for us the fact that the whole ecosystem aviation the ecosystem starting with the Airlines with OEMs the less or so will support us in the and believe in us Yeah, that we are a part of this group and and all the support You know about which you heard in the last couple of weeks for example about our small company They this this enthusiasm actually helps us to to believe that that it's it's it's good And we're on the right path Excellent. Well on that positive note. Thank you very much to the panel Thank you so much for joining us and spending the time and sharing your open opinions. So thank you Now before we close we have one additional point on the agenda and you know We've a range of members of the community of course a target for zero And we've seen a whole bunch of announcements over the last couple of months I want to invite one of them up now to share another announcement. So Jeff Engler of ride electric, please And thank you for having me I'm gonna I want to talk with you all today about the right-spirit aircraft 100 passenger Retrofit of a BAE 146 that we're we announced last week and they were targeting entry into service in 2026 so as you all know 95% of the carbon footprint of aerospace comes from large airplanes bowing an airbus sized airplanes about half of that is Wide-body airplanes seven four sevens five hundred passengers, but about half of that is seven three sevens in a 320 is hundred to 200 passengers and Within that market about half of that is flights shorter than 800 miles. So the seven three seven market Just to give you guys a sense of how large this is You know, this is an aviation audience, but still over the next 20 years. There's an expectation of 32,000 of these airplanes being purchased that's four trillion dollars of value From a carbon footprint perspective These airplanes will contribute about as much carbon as as as Russia over the same 20-year period So it's a huge problem, but also it's a major opportunity and Within seven three seven flights as I mentioned half of the flights are shorter than 800 miles And actually some of the busiest routes in the world are even just one hour So I know we this was mentioned earlier, but the busiest route in the world is sold to Jeju in Korea And that's their 15 million passengers each year other famous routes perceived routes like London to Paris London Amsterdam even London for example to Glasgow. So these are very popular Enormous numbers of passengers and also a huge carbon footprint But when we talk with airlines what what we're hearing is If you want to Start to replace the seven three sevens in the eight three twenties the flights that are the workhorses that are doing these flights You need three things a number one. You have to be flying at jet altitudes Number two you have to be flying at jet speeds and number three you you need at least a hundred passengers And that's to fit in with their existing business model to fit in with air traffic control ground support operations All the things that have been mentioned earlier So this is an airplane that we announced last week. It's called the Wright spirit It's a retrofit of a 100 passenger BAE aircraft. It was actually headquartered not too far away from here just outside of Glasgow The reason that we can do a 100 passenger airplane is because we built the world's most powerful aerospace propulsion system We announced earlier this year that we began testing a two megawatt motor Two megawatts is about three times more powerful than any motor any aerospace propulsive motor that's been out there And each of the motors in this airplane So you'll see there's a four-engine airplane each of these motors is about two megawatts a little bit more powerful So we'll have to scale up, but it's in the same ballpark From an engineering perspective, we're taking a very methodical approach So we've begun testing on the ground and over the next year will be testing both on the ground and in the specialized altitude chamber In 2023 we'll take one of the engines on this airplane and replace it with an electric motor That works well because this is an engine that can actually fly on three engine ferry So it doesn't need all four engines to fly So we'll start with doing a one-engine replacement in 2024 Then we'll do two two electric motors and two existing jet engines 2025 it'll be all four and then we're targeting as I mentioned 2026 for entry into service We're working with two partners who sign the pledge easy jet and Viva Airbus easy jet in Europe Viva Airbus in Mexico To define requirements and set airline expectations And then in terms of our next steps as a company We announced on Monday that we're beginning a joint technical assessment phase or a j-tap an industry term for Defining requirements and setting the final system architecture. So we've been doing that now for a couple months, but We intend to finish that in the end of October of 2022 and then officially launch the program So we have a colleague for Taylor from Honeywell who's going to say a few words about that And want to thank target true zero for the support and all the airlines as well. So thank you Thanks Jeff and the right electric team for having me here today and inviting me and thank you all for you know Your investment your commitment to bringing what I think some industry experts are calling aerospace 2.0 forward So as Jeff mentioned Taylor alberstadt, I'm the electric and hybrid electric business development lead at Honeywell I've been there about 10 years Not a long time in terms of some aerospace industry veterans I think people really get into the industry and are here for decades at a time But it's over the last few that you've really started to see some change and it's not just within Honeywell, right? It's not just within aerospace. It's that push that the panel talked about that's coming from outside the industry and You know that change is visible, you know, not just within arrow trades in the media. It's much broader, right? Non-aerospace news is covering Aerospace changes and just from a Honeywell point of view, right? We're we're addressing that in three areas The first is we've set up a UAS UAM business division So unmanned aerial systems urban air mobility to take Honeywell technology across our portfolio and focus on this new nascent market And the second is technology development for existing products So if you think about Honeywell's heritage in gas turbine cores, whether that be turboprops APUs We're using that coupled with new generator development to make turbo generators, right? And that's part of the hybrid electric journey and then obviously in new technology development Whether that be SAF or SAF blends if that's fuel cells. We're looking at hydrogen burning cores So there's a lot of paths to this green or more sustainable space So just to echo what the panel said to wrap up, right? It's a very exciting time It's fascinating to see the changes associated and with what needs to happen to go forward. It's inspiring, right? There's a lot of smart minds that aren't as Roy said building blenders or washers. This is aerospace It's a great place to be so I think that gives us all optimism And we're really going to see those meaty changes in the coming years that lead us to a greener more sustainable industry Thank you all Thank you. And so with that I think that concludes our meeting today for target true zero I want to thank you all for joining us today If you are not a member of the target true zero community yet, but would like to get involved David is going to be here or you can email him and he'll be happy to kind of share with you What target true zero is all about and how to how to join that so with that? Thank you very much for all your passion and the drive to drive this industry forward and get us to true zero and Have a safe and pleasant day. Thank you You