 It's time for the Lawn Jean Chronoscope, a television journal of the important issues of the hour, brought to you every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. A presentation of the Lawn Jean Wettner Watch Company, maker of Lawn Jean, the world's most honored watch, and Wettner, distinguished companion to the world-honored Lawn Jean. Good evening, this is Frank Knight. May I introduce our co-editors for this edition of the Lawn Jean Chronoscope? Larry LeSœur and Harrison Salisbury, former Moscow correspondent for The New York Times. Our distinguished guest for this evening is Father George Bizonet, the Roman Catholic priest who was recently expelled from the Soviet Union. Under the terms of the 1933 agreement by which this country recognized the Soviet Union, the Bolshevik government guaranteed freedom of worship for all Americans in Moscow. But now the Soviet government has broken that pledge of freedom of worship by ousting our guest tonight. Father Bizonet, the assumptionist order that you represent has long and faithfully maintained a Catholic priest in Moscow. Were you surprised that you were ousted? Well, Larry, yes, I was quite a surprise, but not a total surprise, because since the refusal on the part of our government to renew the visa of Ex-Arc Boris, we expected it. It was well known in Russia that this country hadn't refused to renew his visa indefinitely? Yes, it came out in his yesteryear. There was a paragraph on it in his yesteryear, and we expected some form of reprisal. Father Bizonet, do you think that people in Russia still believe in God despite the anti-religious drives that have been pursued up there for 37 years? I'm convinced of it. The best proof I can bring of that, besides direct observation, I've been to the churches and seen them very well attended, especially on a big holiday such as Easter and Christmas. The best proof, I'd say, would be the renewed anti-religious campaigns, how they keep on changing their tactics to better fight this belief. If there were no belief in God to fight, they certainly wouldn't take the trouble of organizing these things. Do you think that religion is on the increase or on the wane? Who's that of you, Harrison? You just wrote a book in America and Russia after your many years there. Did you see any evidence of an increase or a submersion of religion while you were in Russia? I got the impression, Larry, that religion was on the increase, that his belief was on the increase. In the five and a half years I was there, there were more people in the churches at the end of that period than at the start, and it seemed to me at any rate that there were more young people, and certainly more middle-aged people. Well, Father Bissonet, they didn't allow you during your two years up there, I believe, to actually have a parish in the churches of Moscow, did they? No, I had no church wish to officiate. I had a little chapel in the apartment where I lived, which was a few stories above Harrison's apartment, and it was there that I held services just in two rooms connected by a double door. Well, Father Bissonet, who attended the services that you gave? Were they actually the foreign colony or just the Americans in Moscow? No, all the foreigners were free to come. I never had any parishioners who were of Soviet citizenship, but all the foreigners could come. In fact, the majority of my people were Italian and French. Well, at one time during the period I was up there during the war, Father Brown, who was also a member of the Assumptionist Order, did have a parish right in Moscow, and he had a rather large parish. In fact, every Sunday used to be completely overflowing with people, but they ended that at what time? Was that during Stalin's regime or at the close of the war? As it was still during Stalin's time, it was in 1952 that the church was taken away from our fathers through a city ordinance. It seems that at that time it was decided that any public institution must be in the hands of trustees who were Soviet citizens, and the father being a foreigner, whether he had been a Frenchman or an American. And until that time the trustees had always been foreigners, members of the diplomatic colony. But when this decree was published, it had to be some Soviet citizens, and this first group of 20 trustees at their first meeting voted that they didn't want any more foreign priests to look after them. So the forefather had to abandon the church. Father Bisonet, the people of Russia have been Christians for a thousand years, I guess, but they've only been under the communist government for 37 years. Now, do you think that there are more believers in God up there than there are communists? I'm sure of that, Larry. After all, the official figures are there, not for the believers. There are no such figures. But for the members of the Communist Party, at the moment the admitted figures are a little better than 6 million members of the party. And there are over 200 million people in the Soviet Union. I'm absolutely sure that there are more than 6 billion believers. Well, do you think that the number of believers is going down gradually because young people are not permitted to go to the church? How about that, Harrison? Well, my impression would be that the number of young believers was increasing. And I was going to ask Father Bisonet whether he thought that that might have been one of the reasons for the campaign that the party was conducting last year, directed so much at the young people going to the church. Do you think that was a problem? I'm sure of it, Larry. If you remember, Mr. Khrushchev gave that as one of the reasons for the change of tactics like that last October. But there were still some young people who were being married in church, having their children baptized and teaching them their religion. And that was the reason why they had to adopt new tactics. The former tactics had proved inefficient, because these people were still believing and acting according to their belief. Didn't Mr. Khrushchev sort of call the party off on this campaign and say they shouldn't be so strong in their opposition to the church? No, I'd say he just shifted the accent. I mean, they couldn't use administrative measures. That's right, that's right. And instead they should intensify what he called the scientific approach, try to prove to these bright young men and women that while the superstitions of religion were against the best established facts of science, that it was just a way of blinding them to the beauties of real reason, sort of putting blinders upon them. Didn't you have a conversation with Mr. Khrushchev about this particular subject? Yes, I have a sneaking notion that he must have jinxed me, because a few months later I was thrown out of the Soviet Union. You know on that occasion he drank my health? I know he did. He had Mr. Malenko, Mr. Bulganin. Was this at a diplomatic party? Yes, it was at the National Holiday of the Yugoslavs, and it was there I met these fine people and where I congratulated Mr. Khrushchev on that decree. I thought that while this releasing of pressure, especially not using administrative measures against believers for their belief, would be a step in the right direction. And didn't he have something nice to say about you, as a matter of fact? Yes, that was very embarrassing, because after I progressed a little that way and said that I thought he had taken the right decision because if they released a religious pressure they might expect more cooperation from the people in other fields. In other fields? Yes. More sacrifice. You seem to take that seriously. He's also... You don't see any signs I take it in the Soviet Union, any posters, anti-religious posters or anti-religious playing cards such as they had just before World War II. No, I haven't seen them. Is that particular era over? I think so. I think so. They've refined their technique a little more since they don't use postcards. They have plenty of pamphlets, though. These little pamphlets... Anti-religious pamphlets? Yes. And of course the museums are going full blast. They've reopened the big one in Leningrad, you know. Oh, in Leningrad? Yes, yes. They used to operate just in a cellar. Is he in Moscow now? I haven't seen any. What do you mean, anti-religious? Anti-religious? Yes, yes. What were the ones they had when they showed the development of religion as a regression, as the end of all science? Well, they used to have that in the old cathedral. In St. Isaac's? Yes. And used to occupy the whole cathedral. In the last few years it's been limited to the cellar because the cathedral itself is under their want. I see. Father Bissner, do you think that communism is a natural thing for the people of Russia? Or is it an artificially imposed system by a group of men? Well, historically, Larry, it was imported. Yes, it was imported from Germany, wasn't it? Yes, sure. It's a product of Marx and Engels who are Germans. And I don't believe it corresponds at all to the character of the Russian people. The Russian people, well, if there's one thing that are essentially religious, it's so much a part of them that I don't think they'll ever succeed in taking it out. Well, communism being based upon a godless state, I don't think you can say that it's natural in any way at all. Well, incidentally, when you were in Russia, did you say prayers for the Russian people, Father Bissner? Oh, yes, every day at Mass. And, well, you know those prayers we have after the Mass? Those three Hail Marys in South Virginia? Well, therefore, the conversion of Russia. And that's said not only in Russia, but in all Catholic churches. Well, to me, 4,000, 4 million people, I guess, they were actually rejected to Soviet communism at the end of World War II and came over to our side as refugees. Do you feel that the Soviet people, the Russian people, would actually reject it if they were given their freedom of choice? I couldn't say. I'm inclined to think they would, because, well, communism has tried to work over there for 37 years, and the results haven't been too pleasing for most of the people. Father, did you notice, since I've been gone over there, have you noticed any difference in the attitude of the people? Is there any more gayness or likeness in the streets? Definitely, Harrison. Definitely. There's more chatter among them. And I'd say that they're even happy. At least they manifest a little more happiness. You don't mean because a good reporter like Harrison Soloway has gone from Moscow that the people are talking more? Ah, no. I don't think they ever even knew that he was around. But actually, Father Bissner, did you see any change in Russia? You're one of the last men to have come out. You see any change in Russia since the Malankov regime went down and was replaced by the Khrushchev, Volganin, Molotov, Jambret? I couldn't say it's too soon yet, Larry. Things like that are hard to notice in Russia. You have to wait for weeks and weeks, and you pick up little bits of information. And it's only after much observation and especially some sound deduction that you can get anything at all. I see, and now on the streets you didn't see any great change or anything perceptible just as you left. Things were still as they were, but you did feel that religion does have a hold in the Soviet Union, even the Communist military regime cannot extirpate. No, it won't. Thank you very much, Father Bissner. It's a great pleasure to have you here and glad to see you back in this country. Glad to be back, Larry. The opinions expressed on the Lone Gene Chronoscope were those of the speakers. The editorial board for this edition of the Lone Gene Chronoscope was Larry Lisser and Harrison Soloway. Our distinguished guest was Father George Bisonette, the Roman Catholic priest who was recently expelled from the Soviet Union. To own a Lone Gene is to own the world's most honored watch, the standard of excellence in 100 countries of the free world, and the reasons for the worldwide preference for Lone Gene watches are many. To a lady, Lone Gene offers perfect examples of the jeweler's art, diminutive cord watches for every day, crimm strap watches for country and sport, elegant gem quality diamond watches and bracelet watches for formal occasions, each watch a rare combination of beauty and excellent timekeeping. 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