 Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Entrepreneur India Smart Investing Series. I am Shukra. I am Chief Correspondent at Entrepreneur India and I will be moderating the base panel. Let me start by laying out the ground rules for attendees. Please attend the webinar from quite soon or office with headphones. Please participate in the polls during the webinar. We will be looking at two questions. We will be taking up questions at the end of the session. So please stay with us and we promote engagement to keep the questions ready and drop them in the Q&A box at the bottom of your screen. For those of you who are attending via Facebook, please drop in your comments in the comment box. We will take up each and every question at the end of the session. So this week's episode is focused on direct stock investing and why we picked it up is because as most businesses, most sectors continue to reel into the effect of COVID-19 even though the economy is slowly opening up. So it might be difficult for investors to ascertain which quality stocks to pick. So which is why we've gathered today to discuss, you know, with the two experts that we have here. We have with us Satyam Kothari, who is the founder and CEO of CubeBelt. Satyam is a Mumbai-based entrepreneur and agent investor and CubeBelt is his fifth venture, which is an online platform that connects retail investors with the best financial experts in the market to help the former make investment digital. Having spent about 18 years in Silicon Valley, he is responsible for starting several successful companies in India as well as the US, including India's first payment solutions fund Citrus Bay. Welcome Satyam and thank you very much for joining us today. It's very excited to be here, Shipra. Thank you for organizing this. The second speaker is Virang Shah. He's the co-founder and CEO at Westin Finance, which is an online platform that gives Indian investors access to the US stock market. Originally from India, Virang has more than three years of experience in investment banking at JP model in India, covering Asian telecom, media and tech minds. He has also worked with startup data analytics, Pintek and machine learning space. Welcome Virang. Very happy to have you today with us. Thanks, Shipra. Excited to be here. So, you know, five months in the coronavirus outbreak, lockdown restrictions are being lifted and as businesses and economy is opening up, there are sectors that are still facing challenges whereas there are sectors, you know, those are presenting opportunities. So, let me start by talking in sectoral terms. Maybe you can take this up a second, which are some of the sector themes, you know, which you would recommend that investors should take up now considering that COVID-19 continues to be a challenge. This is an excellent question and I, if I knew the answer, I think a lot of people would be very, very happy. Okay, look at it is actually the advice remains the same irrespective of this current time or another time, right? You need to understand what is your risk level as an individual, what is your timeframe for when you want to invest the money and when you want it back. Once you have these figured out, Shipra, a lot of things become commonsensical. You will figure out that anything that you need for the short term, by short term, I mean in the next two, three years, you should not be touching the market, should not be buying a mutual fund. You should not be buying India stocks. You should not be buying US stocks because nobody can predict what the market does in two or three years. There are other very interesting alternative assets, traditional assets like liquid funds, debt funds, etc. that are right for you. People get carried away when there's a euphoria and many times they get lucky, but what you remember as the famous Richard Taylor book will say is when you lose money, the pain is twice as much as when you make money. So be careful about that part and then be sensible. It's a good market with some fundamental stocks that are going to do well if you believe in the Indian economy, but you have to accept you're buying them for more than five years. There is no easy get rich quick scheme out there. Yeah, I think that's the fundamental of course, but you know for the people are investing in stocks. So basically what I want our investors to know is what are the sectors which are kind of facing the tailwinds and the headwinds, which are the sectors to bet on right now. So what would you say in that? So see without their two parts, right? You look at sectors at a fundamental level and then you look at the current pricing and then decide whether that's the right sector. We all know that things like digital learning, remote working tools like Slack, like Microsoft Teams, etc. are going to be successful because the world has changed behavior. I would argue and say flying and all airline stocks have fallen a lot because people don't know when they're going to fly again, but obviously people are going to fly again. So we know there are good sectors that are very bullish. There are other sectors that have been beaten down, which will bounce back. Then the second part as I said is you have to figure out whether the price is the right one to get it. And that is where I think amateurs need to stay away. You can figure out how an advisor can look at not just the current price but what is the debt, what is the risk level, what is the management quality. And unless you're willing to do this 50, 60 hours a week on your own, I don't think an average investor can understand more than the market. But obviously any time everybody is scared, there's always an opportunity and every time somebody is too happy, then you should watch out. Okay, so I also want to touch upon global investing here. So maybe you can take this up. You know, why would you recommend global investing right now for investors? Because any US market looks attractive. But you know, the fallout of the economic fallout, you know, it is being felt across global markets. So what does it take on that? Yeah, no, that's a really good question. And overall, I think I echo what Satya's point is, is thinking about it from the long term and ensuring that you're sticking to your risk profile and sticking to keeping it simple. I think that's the key underlying principle. One of the key reasons why we started vested and just as a long term trend, what we want to enable for investors, especially out of India, is just the ability to add geographic diversification to their portfolios. And largely, that's the reason why a lot of individuals are now looking at investing into the US markets. There are different ways to do it. Of course, you can do it through mutual funds or ETFs in India, or you can go direct, like direct open up a brokerage brokerage account through a platform like ours. What that gives you is the flexibility. So there are a lot of different assets, a lot of different opportunities available in the international markets. So you don't need to restrict yourself to a certain number of stocks that are available through mutual funds or ETFs that you would invest through in India. What the direct opportunity gives you is you can look at essentially stocks that are listed in the US markets, also companies that like like say Alibaba or Toyota that are listed actually on the US markets but are operating in different countries, or you could invest in ETFs that are just so many different ETFs available right in the US markets, just beyond the indexes. For everything, essentially, like for example, there's a FinTech ETF, there's an ETF for gold mining companies, there's an ETF for investing into Vietnam. So you get that kind of flexibility by looking at international investment. So essentially, I think global investing has always been something people have wanted to do. What has happened now is that it's just become, due to technology, it's just become much more accessible. So you can open up a brokerage account sitting at home completely online, no paperwork involved. You can then start investing that fund transfer process that always was very tedious. It's simplified to a certain extent, but it's still a little bit tedious and expensive as well. But once the money is in, you can invest in a fractional manner. It allows you to buy companies that are super expensive in terms of stock prices, but you can invest in an easy manner. Also, commissions have come down. So for example, our platform is no commission. So you don't lose a lot of your returns just paying up the costs and that's starting to become more and more viable for somebody to start investing internationally. That's a great point. I think Viram makes great points. I think if you look at just the data of the last 10 years, you'll find that the US market index has outperformed the Indian market index by almost 50%. Why? Not just because India is not growing, but also your factor in that the rupee keeps getting devalued. So as an investor, if you believe in a diversified portfolio, one of the core things should be to diversify against just one economy and one currency. So to have part of your portfolio in dollars just makes sense, plus the data showing you would have made up 50% more money. So even if you just buy the index fund for the S&P 500, if you're confused whether to buy which stock to buy, etc., you're already doing step one of the job. And as Viram said again, there are many offers out there. You can open up a brokerage account from Vested, HDFC has it, Qube has it. So there's no excuse left for users not to take this very disciplined step of having part of their portfolio abroad. It takes few minutes. It costs nothing. Even on Qube, it costs pretty much nothing to operate your portfolio. If you want, you can even get an advisor in the US on Qube at least who can guide you if you want to buy stocks, etc. So if we've made it, people like Viram and my team at Qube have made it as simple as buying a mutual fund in India, why are you not doing it for your future? And second, just one more point I would add is there's very specific use cases for people who, for example, applying to go to college abroad themselves or have children going abroad, where you actually want to hedge against the rupee falling by moving money regularly to the US for multiple years before that college admission date starts. I remember 1990 when I was supposed to go for undergrad to the US and that was the summer Dr. Manmohan Singh devalued the rupee by 3x. Guess what? That really changes your plans very quickly and so I didn't go. You can't afford it by a factor of 3, not just a factor of 1. So to add to that, for those who are looking at direct stock investing globally, say in the US market, why don't you take turns to tell us, US 3 or 4 most important things that they should look at while picking a company to invest in and how different is it from picking a company in the Indian stock market, picking a stock in Indian stock market? You want to go for something? I can go for it. It's very much the same. A lot of our investors look up to Warren Buffett who has been doing US investing. So the fundamental way to look at the company stays pretty much the same and Satin alluded to the few points earlier as well. Personally, for me, there are a few things I look at when looking at companies. The number one is just do I understand what I'm investing in? I think that's the biggest one that I was missing for a lot of companies in India because I couldn't really understand the business model as somebody who was very familiar with technology wanted to be able to invest in those kind of companies and that's actually how the journey for Western had begun for us. So wanting the ability to understand the companies is number one. The other couple of things that you would want to look at again is just the team. The management team is something that consistently across different companies in India or the US is important. And then lastly, for me, again, the personal thing is just debt. Companies in debt and ideally no debt and if there is debt, then what are their plans for it? When it stays the same, yeah. Viram is going to sound a lot more intelligent than me when I answer this. I don't know. I don't know, right? I mean, I look at the data in hindsight and even in the current US stock market, you for your ship. If you look at the top, I think S&P 50 companies or whatever makes up the S&P index, it's five companies that have returned the positive gains. All the other companies combined are actually negative. So everybody looks at the US market and says, oh my God, it's been on an amazing run for six months. No, it hasn't. Only a few companies have and the five doesn't include Tesla because it's not in the index, right? And that's a very abnormal story for a company to go up 10x. You can't invest thinking in six months, I'll make 10x, right? That's gambling. That's not investing. So I personally put my money on companies I love, products that I love, and I think will be companies I'm okay holding for 10 years. My US portfolio, personal portfolio being very open has four companies right now, which I've held on an average for eight years now. One of them I've held for 15 years. I don't like to touch it because every time you sell, you pay taxes, right? Do you like to tell our viewers here which company is that? Yeah, I'm happy to, right? So I'm in the tech space, so I look at companies that I enjoy using products of. I'm a big fan of Amazon, and these are not going to be surprises, right? I mean, Jeff Bezos and Tima are an execution machine. In 10 years from now, Amazon will only be bigger than what it is today. I own Google from, I think, 2007 or so because it's just, I think of Google as an infrastructure service, who can live without Google Maps and Google Search? None of us know how to survive anymore, right? So it's like having electricity and water. I used to have Apple till it got, I had set up a safety barrier called a stop loss, and in March it got triggered. I'm kicking myself even now for that. But you know, that's the point of being disciplined, right? That when something goes down, I want to get out. You can't regret it when you didn't make money. I've owned Apple again for maybe about seven, eight years. I have a couple of other stocks like Costco, which I love, which is one of the most fundamental businesses running for 30 years. But again, I just want to give a warning. This is me. It's my personal money where I've studied it. If I was to advise even my mother or my best friend to advise, I would say go find an advisor. This is not what our job should be because people worry a lot when these stocks go up and down. I had to train myself up to 20 years of being a personal investor, not to worry. I don't check the markets every day. Most people don't have that psyche, right? It's money. They're very emotional about it. And everything that I'm said, this is what a good advisor does every day, checks debt levels, checks fundamentals, checks if the company's made some acquisition, which is not a smart acquisition. And that's what you want to do. And what do you do? You pay them so little to manage your money. It's one of the world's cheapest services to outsource for one of the most important elements of your life. We have a question here, which is very similar to what we're just talking. So this is from Facebook. A viewer is asking, how can I invest in US markets? I think that's what answered by what you just said about how vested finance and jubes enabling that. The second question is, which other emerging markets besides US that can be considered for investing right now? Sure. So both of, both Viram and our apps do this and it takes a few minutes. I highly recommend you start getting started out, right? Put in a little bit of money and get started at least. So you start building the habit. There are many other interesting markets. Most of them don't have that. I mean, you have the US, you have China. You can buy global stocks also from us like 10 cent, Baidu, et cetera. If you're so inclined. As I think Viram mentioned, there are ETFs to access other emerging markets that you can buy in the US market. Those are very interesting. But again, right? And this is, these markets don't have that much depth in terms of total market caps. So if you're a conservative investor, stay in the US. It's a huge market. There's a lot of efficiency there. There's a lot of positive momentum going on. Companies are more better regulated in the US than probably in India for sure, any Southeast Asia. So at least you'd know that there's a less chance of there being promoter fraud, which sadly in India is more common than we would imagine. So go after the guys. You know, we don't respect the money that we will work so hard to earn. Not treating it with that respect. Suddenly your decision doesn't become, how can I make more money or where do I invest? You should try and figure out how to protect your money first and foremost. Yeah, I sort of echo what Saptain's saying. Our thesis has always been that, you know, if you looked at just people's portfolios say one or two years ago, 100% of the portfolio was typically in India. Now people have started branching out, say 10, 15% of portfolios have been allocated internationally. You want to keep it simple. You want to look at one market, understand that first, and the market you could look at easily is the US market. And if it's the deepest, the largest market, you have a lot to explore before you want to go into again, studying another economy. So in terms of just, if somebody's looking at international investing, always thinking has been that just look at one market first, the US market and explore that first. And then eventually you can look at different kinds of economies and expand beyond that as well. Okay, I want to take one more question here. So this is for Indian markets basically. How is the stock market looking up in India right now? Why is it so attractive, especially when businesses at large are not doing okay and there is so much unemployment around? Who would like to take this up? Sure. I think a lot of the bet, Shipra, is on the future. Everybody's assumption is that COVID is temporary. It has affected everything right now, of course. But I think there's a, I mean, with all of my cautionary words, I'll say the market actually has improved in maturity. People are thinking, okay, what does this mean three years down, five years down? The assumption is COVID won't be around for three years, right? Or rather, we'll have it under control. So if that happens and the market has taken a fall for short-term, but if you are a long-term player, why not be there? What also I would suggest is an expectation in the markets when I speak to some of my advisors is that the US market is going to go through inflation because the Fed there is printing out a lot of money. It will also mean that the rates for keeping your money ideal in the US will be almost zero. What this means is typically a lot more money will come to India and other markets, which will drive up the markets further in the future. So the Indian markets are bullish, but they're not as predictable or steady. So I mean, you know, and we are based in India. So obviously we do truly believe that the India economy is very positive over the long-term. It's never reliable with the short-term. So, you know, by great companies that are there in India that are very well-run from an HDFC bank to, you know, I would say even what reliance is up to right now, it's kind of amazing whether they execute or know is the risk you take, but the charge finance is just spectacular companies that have survived. So buy it, save it for your grandchildren and don't worry about it. One more similar question. This is from Joel. He is asking, since there is no reason for the present level of markets, are we going to see a major correction? Actually, this question can be asked to both Indian and US market. You know, what you were just saying in the green rooms. Sure. Viram, your turn to go first on the 28th. Just tell them which stocks to sell. That's all that has to be told. I wish our license allowed us to do that. So definitely valuations are sky high and there's no denying that. There's absolutely no denying that. However, we did some digging and our research kind of outlined a couple of things. One is that if you look at just the stock market and the GDP or how the country has performed, we looked at the data from the last 90 years from the US. The correlation between both of that is actually 0.03. So basically the stock market does not really perform positively or negatively correlated to the GDP of an underlying country. And that was very surprising. Especially that was something that I always had always thought that you have to now disassociate the progress of the GDP versus the stock market. And so that was one underlying thing. And the second sort of just to outline the framework of looking at it, that led us to understanding that the stock market then is one what Satin talked about is future expectations. So it really reflects what the future is going to be. I mean, what people believe the future is going to be rather. And the second is it's a pool of capital. So when there's a lot of capital and nowhere to put it, likely that the capital can go into the stock market. And so that's what's happening in the US currently. Where interest rates are zero. There is literally no other asset when people can put money. And that's why all of the money is ending up in the stock market. And we don't know. We don't know at what point it's going to end. And valuations just core fundamental valuation are definitely high. But there is a lot of money and that is ending up in the stock market because of no other alternatives. And especially in the stock market in particular companies, like Satyan also alluded to it, the technology companies, right? These companies, they've sort of become these safe havens of sorts. If you can call it that they're doing great in COVID. They have a lot of cash. They're likely to grow in the future. And that's why you're seeing these run ups, especially like you, if you look at Apple, it just costs cross two trillion, right? That's insane. How, how can a company be this huge is what you wonder. But essentially a lot of people are betting on the future. And there's a lot of capital, which is then ending up in these companies in the stock market. So the short answer is it's very difficult to predict if there's, if there's going to be a crash or not. They're, they're likely might be, but you just given the current scenario, how do you say when? The other only perspective I would put is something that one of my advisors again reminded me, right? And I was trying to figure out the right time to enter the market in March, April, et cetera. He said something very simple. He said, if you are going to stay in the market for 10 years, as you should really should be for a good equity position, why does even a market dip off, let's say, as big as 20% matter? Because 20% divided by 10 years is 2%. And nobody can time the market to say, you know, stock market per stock goes up and down 2% per day easily, right? On almost every stock. So what are you trying to time for? As long as your timeframe is 10 years, you don't bother whether the market is down, whether you should be selling right now, whether you should be buying, buy a great company at a reasonable price, as Warren Buffett would say, and then just stick around, hold it, let the management do their job. You have no crystal ball to decide whether it's the right time to sell, right time to buy. I mean, it's fun to talk about at parties and on WhatsApp groups, but take your money more seriously and leave the fund discussion as one segment of your brain. But the actual behavior of investing should be a separate part of your brain. Okay, so before we take up some more questions, you know, again, coming back to the domestic market, I want to ask one question, which is that, you know, if an investor is looking at, say, next 12 months, then, you know, which are the sectors that are facing the biggest challenges overall and, you know, should be avoided, you know, if the horizon is, say, next 10 to 12 years? I can take a short stab at it first and then maybe something. I mean, there's no, I don't think I'll be saying anything new here and everybody probably knows it. It's quite understandable given the scenario that there are a few sectors that are adversely affected, right? And one, one such sector is, of course, the tourism industry and just international tourism, though, specifically. So that brings kind of aviation into the picture. However, that is also likely to lead to more domestic over the next next six to 12 months, which is quite interesting. And then the second is physical retail, right? That's, again, another one that is globally seeing a lot of stress. You've seen the likes of the likes of JCPenney Forever 21, File for Bankruptcy. And overall, what has happened is a lot of the disposable income has shifted to online channels. And so online e-commerce has been benefitted, fitting a lot from it. And so, will physical retail bounce back? Unlikely because a lot of trends, a lot of consumer behavior, actually what would have happened over a time of a few years has been accelerated and kind of packed into a few months. So that's, again, another sector that's under a lot of pressure. Similar thoughts. I would say there's a little bit of nuance. Everybody needs to think about human behavior. Of course, Amazon and other e-commerce guys are booming. And I think that's something that's irreversible. People love the convenience. Even people who are not trying it are now addicted to it, right? You just open up an app on your impulse purchase on Amazon for anything needed in the house. Same thing. You might not commute for business meetings anymore for one day because everybody's used to doing a Zoom meeting, et cetera. But there's another side of human psychology here, Shipra, which is very interesting, which is as humans, we do like experiences. So whether it is going to travel to see the world or whether it's going out shopping for non-essentials because you enjoy the experience is not going away. Sure, it might be on a pause right now. So if you distinguish between travel and hospitality of essentials versus non-essentials, shopping of essentials versus joyful indulgences, you can start separating a lot of these brands out and seeing who has more potential going forward. So I see in every domain there's opportunity and there's something that you can avoid as well. And again, apply your own personal filter and then what do you as an individual enjoy and what you don't enjoy? And COVID has made all of us very similar in that sense that we've all been locked up together in our houses. So our personal impression might be the same impression that the masses have now. So I take up one question here. One she's asking, are pharma and ID stocks an attractive proposition for the next five to six months? My simple answer is, I don't know. We really infant tech. We are the tech. We will make it simple for you to look, learn, find the right advisors, write assets. Me and my team do not know about individual stocks, mutual funds. We do not want to know. We don't think we can beat amazing legends like Rakesh Chunchanwala and Warren Buffett and thousands of other managers who look at huge screens all day with data coming in. We don't think we can beat them. Why should we even bother trying? We know we built good tech, good design. That's what we do. So again, if you're sitting at home and unless you're willing to devote 100 hours of your week for multiple years to learn how to beat all these people, why are you even trying? This is just intellectual questioning for the sake of it and potentially leading to significant monetary losses. Yeah, actually, you know, I would, I mean, even though it's not, it's not very relevant to the topic at hand, but this was actually, even though this was something that we discussed in the last episode, we're kind of discussing it now, whether to go for direct equity or through the mutual fund load. So, you know, so let me start by talking about the trend. So a lot of these, you know, a lot of these brokerage hubs have, somebody like Xeroda, they've reported that they've seen 100x growth in these four to five months and most of them are young investors, you know, aged between 26 to 25. So for such investors, do you think the DIY route is really appropriate for direct equity? DIY route is really the appropriate way to go or should they go for mutual funds, you know, who have professional fund managers to manage it? Or if you really want to go in direct equity, then why not take the help of financial advisement? Right. I'll go first, you know, you can jump in. I think the fact that people are opening up accounts and starting is a huge thing for India itself. Yes. But far too long, we've kept our money sitting in bank accounts, in FDs. We've been buying gold and jewelry or we've been saving up for a house. Right. Thinking these are the best things. I mean, it's crazy. I think India retail participation in the stock market is still at around 5%. The fact that you're starting to open a brokerage account, the fact that you're buying a mutual fund on any app without any advice is a huge step forward in your life because what people don't realize when you buy mutual funds or stocks, you are effectively buying, hiring the top CEO of whatever stock you're buying to work for you. Where else do you get this luxury? So get started is step one. Then you will learn, right? Because you can tell a hundred people, a hundred times that don't buy it on your own. You're not an expert, as I've said multiple times on this call, but they'll do it and that's okay. Start yourself, learn at some point that maybe you're amazing. You are the 0.1% that's going to be the market or you'll learn you're the 99.9% who say I can't be the market and then you come for advice. It's okay, but it's great. Get started now. Start buying. Think of it as your education fee if you lose money and think of it as you got lucky if you make money. No, I completely agree. I think the core problem that we're grappling with is just not enough people investing into the financial products and that's the number one that needs to be solved. And so as these new accounts get opened, that's a very, very good trend where people are starting to invest into financial products. I think another dimension where what we have seen is especially in the US markets is if you add on ETFs to this, so what we've seen is in fact now in the US markets the amount of assets under management in ETFs is even higher than mutual funds. And what people have understood is that even paying those fees to fund managers has not given them returns enough to beat the market. And so largely a lot of people are becoming just passive investors. So far away from active stock investing to even just investing into the index. So that's a big shift that hopefully we will see over the next few years amongst Indian investors as well. We have a very interesting question here. So Saurav is asking, EPFO just announced that it would pay the 8.15% interest instead of 8.5% basically pay into installments as it has made negative returns from equity. Do you think that instruments should stop taking back on equity and what if in the year of payout of NPS tier one markets dip? This is slightly off from what we're discussing but I think this is very interesting. Who would you like to take this? Could you repeat the question? I got lost a little bit. So EPFO has just announced that it will pay the 8.5% interest in installments because it has made negative returns from equity. Do you think that instruments should stop taking back on equity? So I watched one of my favorite movies last night The Big Short. This was set in the 2005-2008 era where everything was getting crazy in the markets the US markets around mortgage debts. One of the biggest things it reminded me of is that Wall Street and similarly any financial companies job is to create new products and sell them because they make enough commotion in the middle to make money. So when you look at another reason I bring this up is that when you complicate and say there's a debt product which also puts money in equities or I have a structured product which puts 80% in equities but 20% is also the other way 80% is in fixed deposits 20% is in the equity market which protects my capital or in India the worst example of this is a whole life insurance right? You'll get your money back at the end. We gravitate towards safety of capital and that gives people an opportunity to fool us. You can buy a very clean product that does only one thing so you understand it well either by an equity mutual fund or stock and or by a debt product which is only lending why are you trying to merge them? There's no cost to buying two versus one that's extra for you except that you're going to understand them better right? So buy term life insurance to protect your health if you die not sorry your protect your successors in your family if you die they get money there's nothing else to be protected buy health insurance which just protects your health similarly buy debt and buy non-market link products for example at QB we have lots of P2P products that we curate which give between 10 and 15% interest buy those if you don't want to exposure to the market buy a debt only fund if you want debt only and then buy equity only if you want equity why are you combining your life? The other part other than the tax breaks around PFEPF structures I don't understand is people don't factor in inflation in most urban areas of India 8% returns is not good enough if the cost of living is going up further than that and why is the cost of living going up because there are companies making more money customers are buying more products in India that's also driving inflation up why are you not benefiting from that inflation by buying equity in those companies directly then you're getting poorer when you think you're being a good person and saving at 8% it's not true anymore in India I think for a conservative investor who can't kind of stomach the ability of the equity market I think debt is too much it makes no sense to invest in equity and not be able to sleep at night when you see the market going through the current kind of turbulence So Shiprata there are many flavours to that I completely agree that your peace of mind is the most important thing if you have extra money the worst thing you can do is become anxious because of your money so you can put it in these instruments for what is your short term midterm money needs even long term in equity there are super conservative equity funds that you can buy into that will buy only in let's say the top 10 companies of India these companies are not going away they're very well run because those become your anti-inflation hedge for the long term and you should think of it as buying a debt fund because guess where your debt is going your debt from the bank is going to these companies the banks are not guaranteeing your debt returns if these companies if you do believe these super conservative large companies are going to fail your debt from debt returns are also going to fail everything is interlinked there is no magic fountain where money keeps coming out whether you buy debt or equity okay so I will take a last question this is again on Facebook should I look at hot sectors like healthcare right now or should I invest in quality companies run by good management and that have grown profitably in the past irrespective of which industry they will belong yeah I mean I can take that one first I think the answer is implicit the way it's framed is he understands the fact that he understands short term versus long term right so ideally not looking at a hot sector just for the sake that it's hot looking for sounder companies that are more long term that would be the outlook absolutely always the same always the same I don't put in money I need under three years in any market equity etc I put it into very different structures and I would say we at cube we have a team of about 20 odd and we talk about this at lunch every day before the lockdown started and I'm happy to say all 20 of us drink the cool lady down dog food whatever your phrase is and we all invest the same way long term high quality is your wealth creator short term alternative or debt is your peace of mind creator alright so I mean time is almost up so I'm going to wrap up the conversation thank you very much for joining us it was a really insightful conversation and I hope that our attendees got some takeaways from today's discussion thank you again to both of you for joining us today have a good day everybody thanks thank you thank you bye