 across Northern Australia they've generated about 90 million dollars in credits so far through their through their industry. I guess something you don't know about me a really nice Indian meal at the Standpipe Hotel last night so thanks for all those people who recommended that. Surprising but really delicious and when we got involved when I got involved in the industry actually it was I was at the business council of Australia before I started at the ILSC and I found I started hearing about this these carbon projects in Northern Australia and it peaked the interest of a lot of Australia's largest companies that were sort of waking up to the fact that they had big carbon liabilities and had to start sort of understanding where they were going to get credits from and before that I'd lived and worked in remote Australia and I never thought I'd see those two things come together so closely so here is you know one of our most pressing global challenges and the solution for it sits in some of our most ancient practices of land stewardship and restoration and there's a market for it and so that got me really excited and that's when I met Emily when I was at the business council so it was around 2013-14 and now at the ILSC our role is really about how do we support both traditional owners and Aboriginal leaseholders and freehold landholders to understand the opportunity in HIR and that's the question we get asked most often is what's this opportunity and how do we get involved. Thanks Jen. Alright now I suspect a lot of us already know who Mr Macintosh is so you don't have to do the introduction but you do have to answer the two questions which is when did you start getting interested in this space I think we might have heard already but and also what's the number one question you get asked and tell us something we don't know. Okay thank you. To answer the first question first something that you may not know about me is that I've managed to survive despite being a one-eyed power supporter but how do I get involved in thinking about carbon farming. Initially through some discussions in various boards as John said but also as a landholder near Blinman in a group of people interested in it probably probably 18 months ago now and you know through reading a lot of stuff and asking a lot of questions and nothing like personal involvement to really you know bring you in touch with something that you're interested in but in terms of questions that well the question that I keep asking myself I guess is that this seems to be such a rapidly developing field not only carbon farming but also environmental services generally you know as the world starts to realise that we do have to make some changes that how do you actually take advantage now without locking out further opportunities in the future in terms of your landscape. I'm writing that one down. Okay so a couple of housekeeping tips that we're going to start with so for those of you online and that includes the other guys that we have online which is some of the staff at PERSA who are working in this space but we've also got the Commonwealth regulator Hi Ella and Greg Patton who is actually got a project currently going through registration so I thought he might be an also interesting one to have online. If you would like to have a comment or answer a question that comes up same to with Louisa and Dean and Emily just raise your hand that little hand button at the top I'll see it and I'll throw to you and for those of you guys in the audience we have a roaming microphone and what I'm going to ask given this COVID safe world that we all live in is that if you raise your hand we'll give you the microphone ask your question but hand it back to the person that has given it to you so that we can wipe it down and give it to the next person but so I'm going to kick off with the first question moderators right and I'm going to actually direct it to Mr Gavin so John you helped to produce the report that's been released today and some of the fact sheets the SA parcel range lands carbon potential report which is at the back of the room as the minister said and I was just wondering out of that report and some of the outcomes that out of it has there been any surprises was there anything that came out of that analysis in terms of the opportunity the mapping that was done was there any surprises or is it something that was you knew and it's just nice to see all come into the one spot I wouldn't say there any surprises I think the people that have been looking at this stuff for a while have seen this and in some ways South Australia's a little bit late to the party so it's reflecting what's happening in other jurisdictions anyway I think the new things in the report I suppose are around the level of detail that we can get to now so when the carbon farming industry started in some of the other jurisdictions that there are a lot more unknowns so there's a greater level of certainty in the information it's in that report now and critically we're in a different policy space and you know policy risk in the carbon market is something that we've all been dealing with for a long time and but that is actually going away as well so the timing of the report is probably as important as what's in it that's great thank you Bill is there anything that you wanted to add you've read the report is there anything that you know that you wanted to highlight that's in that report or that you know really caught your attention I think I mean the case studies I think very useful and I think that really shows pretty dramatically the potential and and even though it depends on your type of country in the amount of you know land systems you've got in you know in the HIR area it still demonstrates a pretty amazing potential you know that everyone probably needs to look at excellent does anyone want to raise their hand or I can ask another question is anyone got we've got a and we've got a microphone in the front please and if you can grab the gentleman in the red shirt thank you it's very well documented that vast areas of you know pastoral areas I've got bare ground and when you look at the many documents around the world that bare ground releases enormous amount of carbon into the atmosphere whereas if you build up your grasslands and ground cover as well as the bush that the methodology we're currently using that captures and sequence a lot of carbon back into the soil so I've got two questions one is why have grasslands and ground cover not included in carbon farming methodology and my second question is what the pastoralists and farmers need to do to change this to include a whole of farm approach so everything if we regenerate our properties and build up our grasslands and build up the ground cover and put a whole farm approach towards it why can't we get carbon credits across the whole farm okay I am actually gonna ask John to first answer that one and then I might ask Emily after that if that's okay Emily it's something that you might comment so to start the question session with that question is really you know it really has hit the nail on the head for the opportunities in South Australia so clearly non forest vegetation is crucial to our grazing industries it's crucial to the environment it's crucial to the diversity that Dean was talking about so yep the getting a non forest method or a full integrated pastoral method would be fantastic what we're talking about at the moment is the Australian regulated markets so Australian carbon credit units there are methods out there that deal with grasslands and that sort of stuff they're operated under different systems and different markets and there are people in Australia that are selling credits from those now they're just not a regulated credit through through the avenues why we don't have it is because of that definition of a forest so that two metres high 20% canopy cover greater than 0.2 hectare that's a Kyoto forest it's the regulated forest and that's what the methods have been dealing with in that regulated market but yep absolutely a consolidator Grainslands method would be a fantastic thing and people are working towards it that's just going to be a matter of time and if the minister was here I would probably be saying what an awesome opportunity for South Australia to grab would be to drive that method I'll pass that on for you and yeah I was actually before I judged Emily I was actually going to say that there is there is work happening in that space that I've heard about and seen and I think it's something that's progressing fast and that is won't be too far away I would say hopefully fingers crossed Emily I think thanks Jen and thanks for the question I think what I was going to add is being covered and that is that we need to work within this game and as I mentioned in the take that screen is him is as good as it as good as it is and it's trying hard to keep up with innovation part of that engagement and I think part of the shift I don't know if Ella wants to comment on this as well but part of the shift that I'm seeing forgive me for backtracking across the street but originally the carbon farming scheme allowed people from anywhere to propose methods but there was a lot of grass-ricks I was a love of ideologies that meant that there was a lot of innovation and great ideas but it also meant that the offsets integrity committee who were in charge of assessing those methods for scientific business were quite overwhelmed so the scheme then shift to a top-down model that the minister of the department proved proposed methods and now we're seeing more of a collaborative starting to evolve where there is a lot more involvement of industry and pastoralists and those who are going to be involved in the in the rollout of methods but also those who are going to need to assess them and make sure that they have the integrity attaching to them for the federal regulated scheme the other point I make is that that the comment is correct there are a number of voluntary standards out there that people use some of them a part of an international framework and they're administered with a degree of transparency and quite good credibility differences and I think we're focusing on the discussion is of the Australian market largely dominated by accused carbon farming which which necessarily has a lot of detail that tries to move as quickly as it can so I think part of it is work with you with the department with the Australian government and with the federal government to move the method development and also method stacking so this idea of being able to have different activities across landscapes again we're evolving from cookie-cutter projects and plantate back day when forest was really seen as the carbon project opportunity to really into a whole lot of active management and landscape scale method developments it's exciting see your hand up so I'm gonna throw to you turn your mic on and and Alice from the clean energy regulator in the Australian government so hi everyone so the the there is currently a method to credit changes in soil carbon over a property the the sticking point for range lands properties with that method is that it requires quite a lot of measurement so being able to get that that method workable across a big landscape is quite difficult at the moment as Emily pointed out there's there's been some administrative changes to the scheme so that the clean energy regulators now taking responsibility for method development the minister Angus Aylers identified soil carbon as a key priority for method development and I think one of the one of the things they're really aiming to do with a new method for soil carbon is unlock the potential for those larger properties to participate thanks Ella Dean did you have your hand up or have you put it back down most most of what I was going to say is being said yeah but so the method exists already the stumbling block from a practical implementation is cost of measurement to do it according to the method and to verify soil carbon changes over such large and variable landscapes but the additional comment I'll make is that as Ella's alluded there's work on currently to modify the method the rules if you like but the other good news is that technologies and approaches to measure and estimate are changing rapidly and there's a large number of people ourselves included working on that area so that that range lands and range lands are not excluded from the method because ultimately it's going to need a cost effective and reliable and accurate verification and measurement but that will come but a but a great question and I totally agree with that whole of whole of system thinking and carbon is moving pretty quickly away from these arbitrary categories that have had their time in history really about what is a forest in a semi-arid landscape to now various bodies and entities collectively looking at saying if we can increase carbon in the landscape it doesn't shouldn't matter if it's in the soil in the grasses or in the trees if it's verifiable and it's there for the long term then carbon's carbon a tonne of carbon is a tonne of carbon so good question and we'll get there collectively and if you can hand the microphone to the gentleman in the front thanks very much for the opportunity I'm Terrence Coulthard I'm a person from Flinders Ranges area I too would like to acknowledge the people of this area past person in emerging I've got a question to this forum I guess and I'll look around to see who's got the hand up in relation to SEB on their properties is anyone does anyone have an SEB on their property does anyone here yep have an SEB on their property one couple yep yep there's a few okay yeah that's great see because why I wanted to ask that question is because with these SEB opportunity you know that's the special environmental benefits opportunity I was able to work closely with with the past report and and the native title holders of that area to be able to get an area set aside for SEB it's I've got the credits but there's only one party interested in buying the credits my question to is that yes I'd like to you know look at this carbon farming on this property but is it just a white elephant are we going to have credits and no buyers because I mean I'm in a situation where I've got credits and no buyers for SEB okay Jess do is that something that you feel comfortable answering or John I know that you can as well I might jump in there because I've done a little bit with the SEB market in South Australia and it's a it is a slightly different situation around how environmental benefit is developed and credited and then having a bio and so the the difference in the market response so for a carbon market the market is much bigger the market is national and international the market for the significant environmental benefit offsets is actually determined by where a clearance activity occurs and how how local it is to the area that you're working in and what the benefit is that we're then trying to see so the SEB market is is connected to the carbon market like environmental markets are but they're very very different in terms of the mechanism and how they work the security of the buyer and that sort of stuff yeah I just add to that I suppose with with the experience of indigenous groups in northern Australia with cut producing and selling carbon credits is that there is a lot of demand for particularly for indigenous carbon credits they're seen as there's a premium sometimes paid for voluntary buyers so people like Qantas some of the resources companies will pay a 20% sort of premium on carbon credits that come from indigenous land because they know there's a co-benefit that's often generated so people are out on country you know there's employment there's healthy country outcomes there's education and cultural outcomes as well so but obviously one of the things that we're looking at in both WA and South Australia with these HIR range land projects is is to really understand what the potential is what it's going to cost to establish projects so the fencing and things that Dean talked about and then from that the income and employment and other opportunities that would see a carbon project stack up on Aboriginal held land does that answer your question sort of it's there's there's definitely buyers in terms of the carbon credits and in particular as Jess said there's a lot of interest in indigenous carbon projects so I will also add to that with my government hat on take the external hat off and just say that we're actually also looking into the world of how SEBs and carbon projects work and on on one property and if that can happen and how that can happen so that's something where we're gonna look into it from a state perspective but we're also going to look into from and talk to the Commonwealth about as well because it's it's something we're still learning about ourselves okay does anyone want to ask a question and in the front while you're getting the microphone I've got one I want to talk about the price of carbon so we understand that and many forecasters suggesting that it seems inevitable that the price will go up but could it also drop could it disappear and could it become zero and what's the risk of that and how do they potentially factor that into a project plan and their decisions when they're making a call does anyone I'm gonna I'm gonna throw it to the audience Mr. Tim Moore Dr. Tim Moore can you maybe talk to that because I've had a conversation with you about that but I'll also I told I totally stole the microphone here I'm putting the general hat back on that's okay I allowed you to do that and Russell at the back can I Louise I'll just get this gentleman to ask his question Russell and then I'll come to you that's two seconds that's all right okay go you follow up from Tim sorry so very quickly with an optional contract with the Australian government yeah you can lock in a 10-year contract that's basically a full price so if you can get an optional contract in ten years and that's your revenue guarantee what happens beyond ten years maybe they got ten you've got a ten year full contract yep you don't deliver that's not penalty you're locked in with the price so there is an option to secure a price for ten years under okay that's your turn hi my question is for Dean my name is Gwen Christie from Succession Ecology I was impressed by the pacing of your talk and I thought it was really clear but what stuck out to me was the picture you had of that dead plant and that green circle of life underneath it and I'm wondering if that's basically a pixel for a virtuous cycle on what we're trying to do here where you were mentioning that's capturing rainfall there's biomassage organic matter there's all sorts of activity going on can we use that then to look at the landscape scale that captures more rain more percolates in temperatures drop rainfalls increase what does that do to the rate of sequestering thanks yeah so I I agree with what you've your summary there and that that's really what I encourage us all to look at is that which was I think the first question was around that systems thinking our whole of business a whole of landscape at any management practice that's following the rules for a particular method yes we've got to be compliant it's got to be verifiable but it's also got to fit into the real world which is both biology and economics so if we can be triggering landscape change and repair where it's needed and build our capacity for sustainable production then I you know I totally agree with your summary of that of that picture what does it do to the rate of carbon sequestration you know I think there's a few things I would add or comment on that it builds the resilience of the carbon project itself because you've got even if we just limit it for discussion purposes better water infiltration water retention in the landscape where the rain falls you're removing one of the big risks around a carbon project as is primary production and that's around seasonal events so if we're getting more productivity for every mill of rain that lands on our place we can be taking away one of those major constraints and risks around carbon you know and and all of the other commodities that we produce from land as we move towards new method development and new technologies that make those methods cost effective then we can also be bringing in as Emily mentioned about stacking methods so we can be incorporating soil carbon as well as the grass layer as well as the tree layer and if you've got the whole of system functioning there will be areas ecosystems and niches where the woody vegetation is the dominant carbon source in parts the landscape but in other parts of the landscape most of it will be below ground and in yet again other parts it's 50-50 and everything in between those categories so there's an increased potential for sequestration rate through good land management plus there's an opportunity to bring in other carbon stocks other carbon pools into by combining methods or as a collective developing new methods question from a lady in the audience earlier oh is there a hand yeah there is sorry Jen I think I think the way the screen structured you can't see my little electron and so I might I might raise a physical hand when I when I've got something to say I just wanted to come back on that point and also the SEB's point from earlier the SEB issue and I think it's great that it's being worked on because it it's in step with with what I mentioned in the presentation around a move towards there's a buzz phrase at the moment called nature-based solutions and it's bringing together carbon biodiversity and systems approaches that Dean was just talking about so there is there is this trend emerging unfortunately like most things as we move forward there's bits that get left behind and the newness or the additionality requirements under the act some of the tricky aspects around whether or not you've already committed land or are doing things on land that mean that that the carbon yield is actually not necessarily going to be in addition to what's already occurring there so conservation covenants and the like presumably SEB's different markets and it's intended to try and continue integrity in the system so the newness requirement that additionality requirement is an important one and I think if you're looking at SEB's today you'd you'd try and look at ways to package an SEB as part of a carbon project rather than do one before the other and and that's unfortunately sort of an evolution of time evolution of market consideration price I also just wanted to make an observation that yes politics is is relevant as is whether or not Minister Taylor goes ahead with with specific credits within the safeguard mechanism because there is demand coming from as I said companies that have a meeting emitting liability and they purchase carbon credits at the moment if there are new specific units that are different to carbon credits the ACC use that may affect price and there are many things in the future that may affect price but what is certain on a different level is that the business sector has moved there is a global scheme around the disclosure of financial related climate risk and how that's managed by companies there's been successful litigation against superannuation companies that drive companies to actually whether they're required to or not purchase carbon credits and show that they are demonstrating to be able to demonstrate that they are doing things in relation to climate and biodiversity so yes yes the price will fluctuate I think that's a given the question is how much it will fluctuate by and and I just wanted to to make those observations thanks that's great so I'm going to jump to a question that was handed to me earlier and I'm going to ask about the risk of drought it's something still very prevalent for some of us in the room and it's obviously with the risk of climate change it's not going to go away any time in fact it's the risk says that it's more droughts and worse droughts coming our way potentially so I would like to ask Dean to begin with what is the risk of drought on carbon projects and how does that get considered yeah thanks very valid question and fire perhaps is the other one that can be linked but not always linked I'll try and touch on two perhaps but look there's quite a bit we could talk about on this but the first point so I would say is that it's very much got to be factored into your management of the carbon project and sort of facing reality about your current and likely circumstances because it's a 25 year commitment at least so in that context I'd remind us all that we've really got two elements to what we're talking about here one is the what we call the project which is the activities the on-ground work and the carbon that's being stored in the landscape on the basis of of of audits and approved reports carbon credits are issued to the project holder so that's part one the second part is the marketing of those in the selling and the contracting so one of the risk strategies is to not forward contract a large portion of your estimated future production of carbon credits is to manage your risk to say I'm not prepared to forward sell more than x% of what my projects currently forecast to produce until I see how the projects performing as if the project doesn't perform as you expect and you aren't under a contract to deliver and your project delivers less carbon credits than you thought it's disappointing clearly and can impact on your anticipated cash flow but you're not under a contractual obligation a project in itself doesn't lock you into producing a certain amount but a contract to deliver under a commercial contract would so there's normal risk management practices on that front to manage the likelihood of drought so that that's one that's sort of a commercial reality or a commercial strategy I should say the other part of the discussion here is around keeping on top of a project so you're you know and this is what we do and a good developer will always be doing is continually assessing through every year of the project's life are we on track what's happening we use every tool at our disposal from sophisticated remote sensing on-ground monitoring plots and conversations and eyeballs you know with the people that are on the ground and put the full picture together so we're always tracking is the project and our request for carbon offsets matching reality and the key for a successful project is to keep those two things in alignment and not be claiming more than you know five years time go oops you know actually the landscape hasn't been as productive as the computer simulation model said it's really really important that monitoring and assessment is occurring all the way so that you're seeing any changes that are happening in as close to real time as possible so there's there's a monitoring and a practical assessment as well as a commercial tool for managing the risks and just very quickly the case of fire is an interesting one that one big advantage of the Australian scheme compared to some of the international ones is that in a sense our scheme is insured against fire in that if carbon stocks and carbon credits have been issued and a fire through natural causes not through willful lighting of a fire occurs then it doesn't require relinquishment of the credits that have already been issued but no further credits are earned from the burnt land until it's regenerated to what it was prior to the fire and that's a really important element of the Australian carbon scheme and it can be it's done because there is a risk of remote risk of removal buffer that's taken off all projects you know right from the outset in a sense a kitty of carbon credits held centrally to cover unavoidable losses so fire is a little little bit different than drought in that that's a single event it can remove carbon if it's a natural fire through natural causes and what wasn't wasn't through the actions of the project component then at least you don't have to relinquish and pay back those credits but it will will influence the cash flow from the burnt area for sure yeah thanks I've got a couple of questions and one relates to the monitoring a little bit so who is responsible for the monitoring and who manages that given these projects can be 25 years or a hundred years you know departments can't come and go or a case come and go and also what obligations to the project proponents have to the eligible interest holders what obligations do the apart from initial consent my I got a crack or do you want to share I was just thinking about the second just quickly find me the first question first part of the question I had a who is responsible for monitoring yes sorry short-term memory problem there so the project proponent ultimately is required to make sure it gets done but in most cases and certainly the way select carbon works is through the commercial contractor service agreement with the landholder we do that and are obliged to do it throughout the life of the project so it's not government agencies that are responsible unless they are the project holder as well that like Louisa was saying maybe in your case it's different Louisa but normally the project developer will commit to doing all of the on-ground monitoring the assessment the physical measurements on-ground and all the associated desktop based remote sensing that might be partnered with that that's certainly how we work is that we have a commercial arrangement with the landholders that that's our responsibility we take responsibility for doing it and the quality of it and it's really important that you have confidence in that being able to be done for the 25 years which is the duration of most projects so that that's very important and the eligible interest holder maybe others you want to jump in so I'll keep it quick ultimately the other eligible interest holders need to provide consent their consent for the project to proceed what what's required to seek their consent is there a matter for you and them to negotiate in some cases they might say no problem very happy with that a positive thinking foresighted bank might go great I can see how that builds your business will sign the consent form keep us informed others may be looking for a return if well we'll give consent and in return we want to know x y and z in some cases it could be a share of the accused in other cases it's around agreements on land access could be anything and there's no prescription around the extra requirements with obtaining that consent it's a matter for the two parties to negotiate but for compliance point of view the consent itself is all that's needed but it's each circumstance may require different negotiations in order to get that consent okay I'm just I'm gonna actually I had a question down here because I would want to know in terms of native title eligible interest holder consent and some of the you know the the ways of that agreement and that and negotiation and best practice that you're seeing and recommending but after James from green collar I was wondering whether or not you would be interested in having talk about your experience if that's okay thanks so I think you know Emily one of Emily's slides there was it was native title groups were flagged as an eligible interest holder group and she also showed that map that shows where across Australia there are native title determinations so understanding if you're interested in pursuing a project like this understanding on whose land if you don't already know you are and the what's called a prescribed body corporate or native title rep group that represents the interest holders native title holders for that area South Australian native title services are here and and person I'm sure be providing information as well on that what's what was also on Emily's slide was in those little brackets which was start early I think it's really important to start those conversations with native title groups early and really put the effort into into having that conversation because what's happening in some jurisdictions in WA for example with HR projects are being registered without consent and even though it's not recommended to do that you you know sometimes people can get away with registering projects but you can't actually sell any credits through the ERF until you have that consent so you don't want to get all the way down to that point and find out that that's going to be a problem where we've seen it work effectively is where there's a real conversation I think as Dean said about what does benefit sharing look like on this on this landscape on this country whether that's a share of the accused that a project generates or the share of a profits is common in those kinds of agreements but what's most important is that that's what's called free prior and informed consent and when I look down at my notes if I had written that twice and I'm underlined informed twice because I think you know as we've heard today there's a lot to get our heads around and and to understand and communicate and negotiate these takes time and and that communication so that informed component of informed consent is is absolutely critical I see the hand Emily but I might just James I understand you as I spoke to you earlier today and you said that you have your own project that you're doing in New South Wales which is a HR project and and you also work with green color which is a carbon company so I just thought that if we could hear from you and your experience in and I'd like to know your experience of the monitoring like how how you've managed the monitoring on your project but also maybe how you manage the consent process and what you see that is how that works does anybody Emily sorry did you want to say something cheers Jen just a very quick comment I think to to pick up on a couple of points but also to note the carbon the Australian carbon industry code of conduct which sets out I think it's incredibly important get your hands on a copy if you can Google's your friend or your search engine is your friend if you type that in you'll land upon it pretty quickly green color and select carbon about signatories to that which means they've got requirements under it as signatories to to follow the conduct and follow the requirements which includes and sets out the types of information so I think if there are people in your audience today who as Jess said there's a lot to digest as you know informed consent and there's an enormous amount of information out there the code of conduct sets out sort of as a minimum good practice standard what sorts of information should be shared and that's both between project developer or service provider and a landowner as well as with native title holders who have eligible interest holder consent processes to go through and I think it's a useful resource also emphasises and underscores the need for early engagement and actually using reasonable endeavors to try and reach agreement with native title holders before you register a project so there's some there's some things in there I think that are worth looking at and if you're not a signatory give a give a plug to be one but it's fast becoming kind of a standard for good practice so it kind of in many ways isn't isn't terribly terribly here or there whether or not you you are a signatory or not otherwise other than the review and requirements to comply with if you are one but it's a it's now fast becoming a standard of good practice that should be followed in any event keep asking others can ask one I was wondering what you know is someone was asking about you know the new methodology that the whole range lands the other vegetation types that's being developed and I know there's talk about other you know the work that's happening in the new soil like improving so is there a risk if you commit to human induced regeneration method and a new one comes along that's better and allows you to accrue more credits in different types of vegetation is there a risk that that the HR guys people are going to miss out and I did the worst thing ever which is like that I've got the political hat on is asking a question I don't know the answer to so I'm terrified what's going to come out and I've asked the question but Emily maybe if I can ask you or Dean yeah no problem methods yeah methods are developed all the time and there is a little bit of flexibility it's largely informed by the regulations and rules and methods themselves so the Savannah fire management is a is a good example of where there's options there to kind of switch and upgrade provided you you're not changing too much and it's within the parameters of what's what's set out and I think so that's that's probably a politician's answer but to be short about it and there's some flexibility to build on what you're doing Savannah fire management for example was what they call an avoidance project which means it's actually limiting the emissions being emitted rather than slowing them down and that's how they were initially conceived and the method dealt with that there's now been a hybrid method developed and some projects are looking at whether or not they can switch across and certainly new projects are looking at them so there is a degree of there's a degree of improvement but it depends on how the it's unfold and deal with that as well I don't know if Dean Scott anything to add John's also got something to add so um uh Dean and then John there's there's definitely risk oh sorry go you go John sorry Dean um there's definitely risk but the fundamental thing to remember here is that the method development and that and what the Australian government's trying to do is increase the generation of carbon credits so when they have brought different methods in they've put mechanisms in place to transfer across they don't want people to be disadvantaged they actually want to increase the amount of carbon credits generated so there's a risk but we're talking to a group of people that are partialists in the driest state in Australia like there's risk you guys deal with it every day of the week in agriculture in a whole heap of different ways that a normal human being would never get into business about and so yes there is risk but there are also mechanisms in place to deal with it hang on Phil and I'll just go hi yes um being a partialist we often get other partialists asking us do you have to destock and fence that area off who looks after it and everything else like that but that's the most modern uh the most question asked is about de-stocking because we live on the birdsville track and we don't have a lot of bushes all right that is a question I've heard a few times myself so um Dean do they have to de-stock under the and I and I'll reiterate that today you know we're really looking at the human induced regeneration method so um and there's a number of activities under that human induced regeneration method but Dean is de-stocking one of them so the short answer is no they you do not need to de-stock the the methodology that you do need to show you're doing is managing the timing and extent of grazing de-stocking is the most extreme form of managing the timing and extent of grazing and and you're pretty much locked in if that's your method and you say we're going to do this by de-stocking there's not really much to go from from there so you know we don't have projects where people have to de-stock um if someone wanted to de-stock for their own particular personal circumstances and they had they were legally able to do so under the conditions of their past release then you know there's always horses for courses but um for example in western Australia and you'll have experts in the room or online for the south Australian situation but for a pastoralist in WA to have a carbon project they have to remain compliant with their pastoral lease obligations as a pastoral framework and legislation that sits behind the land administration act and one of those is to show that they're maintaining all best endeavours to maintain um good pastoral practices and having a viable pastoral business and de-stocking is not a way to do that so not only does it make it difficult to obtain legal eligible interest hold only in WA impossible to get eligible interest holder consent from the WA government because you would be in breach of your pastoral obligations but my irrespective of that that's very important clearly but even irrespective of that the comments that others are made to in this forum you want your carbon project to complement and enhance your current business not replace it you know i'm really very strong on on that statement because if you replace it you put all your eggs in a new basket and all of the questions about price and certainty you know suddenly become everything but if you've got a carbon project that complements and enhances your existing business it's icing on the cake it's an extra income stream it's risk management and the best way to do that is to not de-stock unless your particular personal circumstances that's the option you want to or need to pursue but is around designing management practices for the timing and extent of grazing which still includes animals but it's it's in a sense modernizing our system so that we're being more flexible with where animals go and for how long are they there for and what impact are they having Mr G this is the question for the panel generally i don't know who's probably best position to answer it but as i understand the west australian government and the Queensland government have a fund one's 15 mil one's 100 mil or might be wrong on that my question is what's this money being used for what specifically is the money being used for thank you i'm going to ask mr gavin i can't talk about the west australian government fund but the Queensland government's established a thing called the land restoration fund and the land restoration fund is being used by the Queensland government to try and drive investment in the carbon economy they want to see more activity in carbon projects in Queensland so that's the first the first thing the second component of the land restoration fund specifically is trying to drive additional benefit from the carbon projects and that benefit might be financial or it might actually be social benefit cultural benefit or environmental benefit so someone a number of people would have already said that carbon projects have a lot of different benefits you know a soil carbon project might generate a carbon credit but it actually gives you soil carbon and you'll never hear anyone say gee i've got too much soil carbon you know soil carbon is going to be great for you there are all sorts of benefits associated with it the Queensland government's trying to recognize a value for some of those other benefits because we've got a whole heap of areas where the economics of the carbon project alone are probably marginal so it might be worth doing the activity because it increases your productivity or it increases your soil health or increases the the resilience of your enterprise but if the carbon economics are marginal you're not going to generate carbon credits and the land restoration fund is actually trying to put a dollar value into those other benefits to make the project economically viable and get it over the line generate more carbon credits um i'm gonna go to Bill McIntosh and then you after that thanks Jen like John touched on a point there which i think is important from a landholder's point of view i mean we've talked about risk and one of the big risks i think is that the world will change and our markets will change it in in pursuit of that change and we live in a world where international product oils are really influencing us more now probably than ever before and if we as a as a business you incorporate a carbon carbon project into your business whatever it might be your product can come out of that with an extra accreditation or tick and you it's an insurance against the world market saying we actually don't want your product unless you are accounting for your carbon or in fact your carbon neutral so it's a bit of insurance and it's in the meantime you might even better make some money out of it as well yeah so it's you know when we're talking co-benefits and the co-benefits that the land and environment restoration fund in Queensland and the other fund in WA that you know they're wanting to um i guess incentivize or add additional um insurance into the project and incentivize people to take up to participate so Emily um you had a comment yeah just just very quickly um both funds are in essence well certainly the Queensland fund is in essence another government buyer in the market so they are actually purchasing the the ACC use that we've been talking about and separately under the contracts the the templates and everything are online they separately purchase the delivery of identified co-benefits so that's how they're operating and and it is all of what your other guests have noted i want to pick up on Bill's point which is the direction that comes from internationally and point out that the UN convention on biodiversity has been around for as long as the UN framework convention on climate change they were sister conventions both adopted in Rio in 1992 and this year and last year prior to COVID there's been an incredible uptick of corporates and other stakeholders now attending negotiations under the convention on biodiversity that's reflected as i mentioned in the in the direction that's been recommended on the EPBC act federally and and it's certainly you know South Australian government Queensland government WA government and other governments are identifying the that confluence of co-benefits that the blending of environment by diversity cultural social and economic and therefore i think it's a watch this space and and very much working out ways to to do what Queensland and others are doing in in making that economic okay i'm going to ask one um i want to understand um what about the emissions of cattle and sheep on the place like how are they like a farms emissions it's our own emissions so you know obviously it's sequestering carbon and um and being paid for that carbon in the vegetation under a human induced regeneration medicine but the old cow and sheep isn't carbon neutral unfortunately so are they accounted for is that accounted for um how does that work do we need to be able to calculate the two John you've touched on my favorite opportunity um so yeah the the um counted in Australia's um national count um but a landhold is not penalized for them and um that creates an opportunity that means that if you can reduce the emissions from your herd then there's actually the chance to recognize a benefit there and there is a method the herd improvement method for that there's some real challenges with that method in terms of the size of the herd you need to make it worthwhile so it wouldn't be applicable um theoretically it wouldn't be possible but practically it wouldn't be applicable um in South Australia I'm just trying to think about what land holdings have changed hands since I was last down here but um there's a huge opportunity around that and basically and simply put it is um what can you do to increase the efficiency of your turnoff how can you grow the meat the protein quicker more efficiently with less emissions so that's having less less livestock for the same amount turned off having them on your property for less time and that's all done through um all the things that we like to do you know improved herd management improved infrastructure improved genetics all the things that um that graziers are aiming to do anyway and so that's that's one of those points that Dean was talking about and Dr Moore raised earlier is that thing around you know do the things that actually add value regardless of the carbon dollar and you'll never lose and herd improvements one of those things um I think the report actually acknowledges that um opportunity in that method um just briefly doesn't it there's so there's um the report that's been released today does actually talk a little bit about that opportunity and that method that exists so um worth having a look at um Dr Moore yeah Jim sorry no I swapped between the two is um the demonstration of that is groups like NFF and MLA making commitments around carbon neutrality so MLA already has their roadmap to carbon neutrality for the red meat industry um there's there's sort of three I mean it it's much more complex but there's three key reasons for that one we can all hope is because they want to see a better climate future and that is good for landholders that's good for parcelers but the other one's about market access and that's that is real now and will continue to emerge and we've seen that in all sorts of things over time I mean we can just look at how Australia's um weather the storm and pardon the pun of the mules in debate but there's also that opportunity early on to try and recognize an increased benefit at the moment and and you know I I can be reasonably cynical a lot of times when you're at the front of the market you can say yep I've got carbon neutral beef now I'm going to recognize a financial return an increased return than I would have if it wasn't carbon neutral but eventually the market's going to catch up and just expect that and we see that with you know FSC certification for timber or dolphin friendly tuner remember when that was a thing but now all tuner is dolphin friendly people just expect it you're not gonna you lose your market edge as the market matures and so it will be that shift from reward to compliance. All right Emily um only because we were talking about it earlier and it seems topical I just want to pull the pin out and lob a carbon carbon border tax adjustment little grenade into the room that um you know a lot of a lot of this and you know market or otherwise free trade agreements and international um arrangements are fast going to push on on the economics of Australia and I think that's sort of inevitable and and and really that's why you also have industry and business moving as well and begrudgingly or progressively um it's a direction that we can see coming and um I just want to sort of make that observation probably lean on the detonator as we all walk out the out of the room given I have also checked the clock but I just wanted to add that in as well. The project on your farm and if you are how are you doing it like how do you tell people about is it part of your marketing is it something that you're putting on a website or you know if you have any of that stuff is that Dean or uh uh Louisa I know uh Bianca actually oh hi Bianca um Dean I'm going to ask you are you seeing and John um are you seeing anyone promoting um their carbon farming activity as part of like in their marketing I mean you know is there um any of that happening yet or is it hasn't caught on quite yet Dean yeah no there definitely are people that are doing that so for an individual to do it it tends to be those that uh have some kind of direct marketing or a brand from their product so it's probably a bit too much of a generalization but the smaller producers closer to cities um who are you know go to a farmer's market for example they're they're well suited um to be talking about their environmental credentials carbon or otherwise for the larger producers where you're a a part of a supply chain then the custody of that animal changes along the path so you need then to be partnering with others along the supply chain to be obtaining those kinds of benefits so I think that's changing pretty rapidly too but is a little bit further behind because of the complexities of a supply chain um but we're working with people that um are on the supply chain right through to retail there's red meat producers in Australia that have carbon neutral product already um and others that are aiming to move that way uh and the feedback from them is that you know retailers are very much looking for for that you know at at the moment it's an extra and as I guess as John was alluding to you know and I know everyone in the room will feel like you know here we go again to agriculture we've got an opportunity for obtaining extra value and then it will be a requirement to get another requirement but if this requirement is also building your business I feel less fearful in that one but the retail sector is feeding back to the supply chain to say we we're valuing this um we want product on ourselves that has a verifiable tick if you like so yes it's very much is happening and it's happening more and more so yes there are definitely people doing it and that connection to your market is is a key there and and that's the same with all of our primary production you know if to to generate the increased return that connection needs to be there um we're also seeing so we're seeing people marketing their their product and using the carbon neutrality as a benefit we're also seeing people marketing their carbon credit and the way it's produced as being um the additional value and that and that's Riesma Cohen particularly in the north of the country with Savannah burning projects but I think for partialists here I mean that in the extensive grasslands extensive range of Australia there's a whole heap of beef that's produced organically some of that is marketed people go through the accreditation process they see the value when they market it aggressively and and see a benefit there some people are producing effectively organic beef and it's just not they don't go through the regulatory accreditation process so they don't get an increased benefit and and there's a there's a spectrum there and it's this is very very very similar it's up to the individual producer okay um this should come to no surprise for the people who know me but we I think we've gone over time um and I've asked too many questions um but so I'm going to finish off Bianca I'm really sorry um hopefully it wasn't really important um but what I'm what I want to do is um ask of everyone on the panel including and I'm going to start with Louisa because she's been very quiet uh there um I want to um know what do you want to see happen next in this space and Louisa I was wondering um I think it's rather timely I come to you because um I wanted to note that Louisa and PERSA Department of Environment and PERSA are working together in this space um and we are working on an interim approval process um uh that acknowledges the role of the pastoral board um in uh approving uh carbon farming projects on a past release and um and obviously the Department of Environment is responsible for the eligible interest holder consent of the state government well not the department the minister for environment and water is the eligible interest holder consent give us so um Louisa what would you like to see next in this space thanks Jen um yes I was going to mention the fact that we are developing this um procedure that everyone um will be able to clearly see what the steps are to be able to achieve the minister's consent as is an eligible interest holder um but also I just wanted to um let people know that the state government's released a climate change action plan and that does include a commitment to develop a carbon farming road map for the state um and we're doing that in partnership with the department for primary industries and regions so PERSA and other agencies um and we we do want to do a range of things including looking at measures to stimulate the supply of carbon credits in the state um but we also want to understand and improve the business case for undertaking these different types of carbon projects and as was mentioned for productivity, environmental and social benefits so um I guess watch this space with with PERSA and in partnership with our department on what that road map might look like because we will be engaging with the ag industry on that can you tell us tell us uh just quickly um Dean first what would you like to see happen next in this space especially for this audience I would like to see a collectively can enhance current methods develop new methods that bring in greater capacity for the the range lands in the pastoral sector to contribute and participate in in carbon farming opportunities Emily no I'm glad that um I'm glad Dean mentioned that one because certainly harmonisation and active land management I think is is a good one but for me um I think what I'd like to see is clarification under article six and and that and an increase in international linking and bilaterals at the international level because that will influence the supply and demand here within Australia around delivery and pathways for selling units and recognition of units um overseas here and here overseas as well what would you like to see happen next in carbon farming probably quickly two things uh firstly a a really good conversation in our community about the potential here and and secondly probably an acceleration of uh development development some of those other layers of accounting like you know it's like a whole of whole of region carbon scheme or even including biodiversity credits now that chess um I agree with everything everyone else I said which is great because I can add my two things um so I think I'd like to see anyone who could participate in this industry um be able to so removal of any kind of barriers to entry and one of those barriers is access to information um sort of independent information I think one of the concerns we have is that um a lot of the expertise is sitting with carbon project developers who can be amazing partners um but I guess our offer is to to indigenous landholders that we can provide funding as we've done in WA for groups to get the information the kind of information that um was in Dean's presentation about the productivity of your land and where the project area is and how much estimated carbon you can produce over 25 years and what that might be worth um so that you are making informed decisions about what you want to do next um and then the second part was that um people are really maximizing the benefits of this opportunity so and that's in understanding who you partner with and what they offer and what the benefits sharing looks like so it's not just a set and forget it's something that you're you know you're really engaged in sort of really extracting all the opportunity you can from it that's great John thanks John um thank you firstly for the opportunity I think you've made two critical mistakes this afternoon one of them was giving him the opportunity to talk and not sending a time limit on it um the second one was letting me have the last say in terms of what I would like to see it really leaves on from that um I'd like to see landholders participating in the carbon market in an informed way and that to me means no one signing a contract with someone that isn't a signatory to the CMI to the code of practice okay so that would be my number one thing if you're a landholder considering this and you're talking to a project developer are you a signatory to the code of practice um but then the next steps from that and anyone that's heard of me talk before I apologize seek independent legal advice seek independent financial advice I know lawyers and accountants seem like they're a rip off it will save you money and pain in the long term and it's not often I say that about lawyers particularly sorry am no offense and and yeah right of reply I have been I was with those people saying oh great Emily's talking that's amazing but yeah absolutely landholders you need to go into this in an informed way it's like every other really complex decision you're making agriculture um and it's okay to make the decision not to participate it's okay to make the decision to participate but make a decision don't just sort of walk away today thinking uh it's all a bit complex I'm just gonna let that one wash over me because it is gonna come catch up so just seek the information make the decision one way or the other great and it's not really you're not really going to be the last one because miss Bianca Lewis has been very patiently waiting with her hand up online and I feel like I should go to her because she sits behind me and I'll hear about it if I don't Bianca thank you Jen look up very quickly I guess I guess just recapping everything everyone's just said my point was really about the barriers to access and and our minister I unfortunately didn't get to hear the minister this morning and I'm sure he spoke about that some of the challenges we have with the current pastoral act and as we've heard from Louisa and both from Jen obviously we're working actively through that now to set up those pathways under the current pastoral act but meanwhile concurrently alongside that we're reviewing that and we're trying to put in place a new act which does facilitate and get around those barriers to access that we currently have for these alternative land uses so that's really the point I wanted to make and the question you asked the other panel members Jen about what questions you get most one thing I get about the new pastoral bill that we're trying to put in place is but I can't see carbon farming mentioned in there can I do carbon farming and the simple answer is yes it is considered you know what we term an alternative land use but as you probably all picked up on today because of the rapidly moving environment we don't intend on locking down in detail in that in that new act exactly what methods and the process around those methods because we don't want to constrain that market inadvertently so I just want people to take away that it is something we're actively working in and there's reasons why you don't explicitly see carbon farming and how it works outlined in that new proposed piece of legislation but rest assured that is exactly what we're working towards this session and thank you for all your time and your patience opportunity very often to ask a lot of questions um yeah we're going to have lunch downstairs we can go out that front door the door will the door will be opened and yeah thank you I just just wanted to reiterate so this has been recorded today we're going to send this recording out we're going to make the slides available and I will also go on the hunt and it's something that Louisa and I are both working on to set up a space where a lot more up-to-date and relevant climate information carbon information will be available carbon farming information specifically related to the pastoral range lands but what I would encourage you to do if you haven't already picked up a copy of the report there's more in boxes here if they're run out there's fact sheets that are specific to pastoral business case studies and there's also a really good general one that just provides a bit of a really good general overview but also talks about the things you need to think about when we're when you're considering carbon farming projects so there is going to be a lot more happening in this space a lot more information a lot more talks a lot more opportunity to chat and I'm always willing to have a chat that should also come as no surprise all right go have lunch enjoy get up walk around thank you and thank you for everyone who came today John Jess Emily and Dean thank you for joining us online and Louisa I'm sure I'll be talking to you very soon thanks Ella and Greg as well