 My guest today is John Thompson, and he wrote a book recently, I think it's your most recent book, called Deliverance, A Journey Towards the Unexpected, and John is the senior pastor of St. Dischurch just outside of Toronto, Ontario. Welcome John, we're so glad that you've joined us today. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great to hang out with you today. How are things up in Toronto right now? Well, we live in a very different world than you all down there. So we are just now, it was just announced an hour ago that every mandate that we've lived through will be disappearing March 21st for the first time. We only got 100% capacity in churches with masks last week. And so we're in a very different world than, well, we have very different starting points as nations. Let's just say that. That's the Canadian way of saying we're not going to have that conversation. Well, we're your neighbors down here in Michigan. And so we're watching you on the other side of the Ambassador Bridge, but love Canada, love Toronto. Toronto is a fantastic city. Awesome. Very multicultural, melting pot, very cosmopolitan city, and also has a history of... It's the fourth largest city in North America now. And it's the most multicultural city on earth. Yeah, it is. There are 300 heart languages spoken here every day. And unlike the American experience, which is melting pot, we are multicultural. So people retain their ethnicity and their distinctions first, and then our Canadian second. So this is like a really wild, cool city, especially if you love culture, art, food. And it also is a really interesting place to be a Christian. Well, I know the food scene is really strong up in Toronto. I miss being up there. It's been a couple, it's been a long couple of years, I'm sure for you. And we celebrate with you and the fact that those mandates are lightning and praying that the church really is strengthened and rebounds as a result of that. But have you guys, how long have you been meeting in person? It depends on what site. We actually were meeting and then we lost it, and then we were meeting and then we lost it again. I think we've had four different closures over the two year period. So I honestly can't even remember when it started again. It's just, it's been up and down and all around. It's been wild. Yeah. Yeah, it's been like, the way I say it is that leading a church through the COVID era is like whitewater rafting. It's like, you know, the water's calm, then all of a sudden you hear the sound of waterfalls and it's like, tuck your legs, lean in and paddle hard. And if you, if you've led through the last two years of a church, you've led through a decade. Really, I mean, Yeah, at least while we were, I was saying actually, in another context, a lot of people thought about this, but this is the first moment globally that every human being has been touched since World War Two. And it's just, it's just a very interesting thing about like I'm 46. So I have memory of my grandparents, World War Two, the Depression, but everyone under me has no institutional memory or connection to people who lived through a moment where the government interfered at this level or there was a global event. 9-11 wasn't even a global event like this. Like this, this was different. So yeah, it's It's fascinating. That's that's one word for it. There are other I can think of a lot of others, too, but we'll stick with fascinating. Good. Let's go. I'll take you now, John. This is our first time really having a conversation ever meeting. And so I thank you ahead of time, but I want to also go on record is just thanking you for this book, because this, in my opinion, is touching on a on a subject and a very, very big subject in the Gospels, but a subject that's not taught exhaustively or very clearly in today's world. There's a lot of other things that I think are taught, but this book someone. So a friend of mine recommended it. I was at a thing out on the West Coast with John Mark Comer and then a friend of mine, John Tyson. And Tyson's the one that recommended this book. He said, as only he can make, you got to read this book. So I ordered it, read it in about two days. And it so impacted me that I bought I think one for our entire pastoral staff and then sent a copy to we have a bunch of churches around the country. So I sent a copy to every pastor in our family of churches. I don't I don't do that often, but I feel like this is a really well done. You've done a great job theologically and also pastorally laying out a case for the ministry of deliverance and what that means. We'll get into that more in a minute. But I think you struck a great note with both the pastoral and the theological aspects really marrying well in this book. And that's rare. A lot of times it's one or the other. It's very practical, not very theologically robust, or it's really high academic level and not really practically played out. So anyways, just wanted to say that just beautiful book. And I've got a bunch of questions I want to ask you related to the the subject of deliverance, casting demons out, spiritual warfare, all that kind of thing. But first thing I would love for you to do is just take a few minutes and tell everybody who may not know you or your story, how you ended up pastoring Sanctus Church in Toronto, and how this has become such a big part of the culture and the ministry that God has given to you there in Toronto. Yeah, sure. So I'm a fifth generation Christian. I actually am a missionary kid. I grew up in Ecuador in the 80s, pre internet. So you know, I had the last I call it the last national geographic experience before everything went global. And and I was I became a Christian through a Sunday School teacher and my mother in a traditional Baptist Church, I have no charismatic upbringing, even overseas at all. I'm a third culture kid, I've been to 40 countries that traveled the world. And yeah, just other things married three kids, only child. I won't give you my enneagram number. Anyway, Oh, come on, we're all dying to know. I'm an eight. Are you shocked? Are you shocked? Anyway, yeah, challenger. Yeah, yeah. But no, to me, all of this emerged organically. I was in a conservative, the translation for Americans, an evangelical freestyle traditional church that was willow influenced. In my first book, Convergence, I talk about how much the senior pastor that I took over from was the pastor. He was a business guy who got saved. He was entrepreneurial, grew the church from 50 to 1000, which by the way, in a Canadian context is is gargantuan because yeah, that's huge. I have a scope. And you know, he was willow, topical, and I was more reformed, but not angry. I was expository base, but didn't understand that. I was contemplative in the sense I knew the disciplines mattered. And I knew that the Holy Spirit and the gifts mattered. And I didn't have context for it. And it was in youth ministry. And actually, in that part of time, we weren't even very multicultural. And all these spiritual experiences started happening that I had no categories for. I mean, I'd read a lot. I globally traveled. So I probably a little bit more than most. And so dealing with the demonic actually became the moment where we had to wrestle down even gifts, because as we dealt with the demonic, and what's mental illness, what's demonic, what's physical, what's exaggeration, that all on the ground, unexpectedly, not invited, we hated the conversation that was the weird church down the street, that in heaven, we'd hang out with them and other than that, we want nothing to do with them. And and as the pastoral issues came, that happened. And then in those moments, these other experiences happened, which of course, now later, we understand were gifts, we didn't ever right category for them. So actually was the encounter with a demonic that actually forced us to the uncomfortable moment, which forced us to understand gift orientation, which forced us to do definitions of gifts, which in the end, actually brought renewal to the whole church, because we actually took our church in a very systematic way. And now it's totally incorporated through everything we do on why gifts are fundamental because Jesus used them, which is a whole another conversation. But but that's sort of the journey. And now, you know, probably 1000 cases later, we've dealt with this. And I mean, we've just actually paused this ministry again, because of COVID, some staff transitions, we have to rebuild again. So this will be the fourth iteration of how deliverance happens in a large church. And I just want to say to everyone listening, just because we always need to say this, because we all experience this, it's not greener grass here. There's all sorts of trouble here. We're trying to survive here. We've got all sorts of mistakes we're making here, like, you know, just I just want to say that because anyway, yeah, that's, that's good. And that's beautiful to say, because you're right, you know, you can, you can look at someone who's written a book or seems to have something established and think all, you know, smooth sailing. But I would think especially in a context, we're a charismatic church. Unashamedly, we actually use the language spirit and truth. That's kind of how we shape our, our, our family. But I think when you begin to step into the realm of dealing with and very head on dealing with the demonic or dealing with people that are engaged in power encounters, those types of things, things can get messy because people are going to make mistakes. People are going to make assumptions. And, you know, as you well known and well documented, you know, the devil and demons are very real things. They have not taken a break. They're as engaged and involved in the world you and I live in as they were in the first century. And that's, that's a great, great reminder for all of us that we're, you're doing it, you're doing the stuff as John Wimber would say, you're doing the stuff, but it comes with messes and it comes with tests as well. John, you and I both know that one of the major, and you write about it actually, one of the major, I would say even theological debates that's gone on within the evangelical slash neo-Pentecostal third wave charismatic world has been the issue over can Christians be demon-possessed or demonized? On the evangelical side of things, typically the answer to that, if they even believe in present day demonization or possession in anybody, their typical response to that is no, a devil or demons can't cohabitate in a place and they know the Bible says our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Once you're saved, you're free. That's it. Curses have been broke off. In the charismatic world, guys like Derek Prince and others that were part of the charismatic renewal talked more about in very free ways. No, Christians can't be demon-possessed and they need deliverance. And I think in sometimes past that may have led to even some excess that caused even people within the charismatic world to kind of shift the pendulum to where I think presently it's possible for a lot of charismatic guys to say on paper, yeah, we believe it, but practically there's no actual functioning in that. So I want to ask you the question, it's kind of a t-ball because I know you go in this in the book. Talk about the idea, maybe give us a definition of demonization or demon possession and then talk about how that plays even with Christian, non-Christian or the in-between. Yeah, sure. All right. First thing as we get going in this, I'm going to take this maybe in a different direction and get there like I do in the book if you don't mind because there's a lot of strawman arguments. There's a lot of emotional reaction and I just want us just to, no matter who's listening, slow everyone to calm down and just let's take this slow. Number one, I'm a Calvinist. So let me work it out like some people are like, I'm out. That's it. He just, but I'm not angry. So it's okay, guys. I've never been young yet restlessly reformed. Never. Never been one of those guys. Okay. So let me work it out like this. My favorite book is Ephesians. And so I'm going to address this issue in different ways. Number one, Ephesians chapter one is a fundamental text about Christian identity rooted in the work of the Trinity. So if Ephesians chapter one says that however you work it out, you're predestined and you're chosen and you're adopted. It also says that you're forgiven, you're redeemed, and then we all know near the end it says, and you're sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. And so you've got the Father's calling, you have the application of Jesus's work, and you actually are possessed, sealed until the day of redemption. So yeah, fundamental. And that's core to Christian identity. It's core to our soteriology. It's core to all sorts of amazing things. Chapter two says that because that is true, we're seated with Christ, not in the heavens, actually in the heavenly realms where the ongoing war is taking place, which is really significant. And that is a positional statement. So the very first thing that I think every needs understand is positional statements are a positional statement. So possession is positional. And this is really important that we catch this. Most people confuse upstairs and downstairs theology all the time. So the Bible is clear, 2 Corinthians 4 forces, the God of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the gospel. That is the light of Jesus Christ or another version of that. So it also says in 1st John that the whole world is under the power of evil one. When Jesus is tempted in the temptations, of course, Satan has the right and offers the world all the kingdoms to Jesus. So what we need to understand is there's only, you know, as the book Revelation says, there's two marks, there's two cities, there's two communities. No matter where your eschatology is. So the heart of it is every human being is currently possessed positionally right now. You're there owned by the kingdom of darkness or the kingdom of light, you're either owned by the lamb or by the beast or the dragon, like you're owned. And so a lot of people get this argument about possession as something internal and I just need to say let's be biblical about this. Possession, the possession conversation is upstairs first. You're either part of the kingdom of darkness, the kingdom of light, Ephesians 2 is really clear about that. You once were this, owned by this, the spirit of the air, right following the ways, right totally. So what most of us really have to wrestle out that. Forget is there something inside of me. Do I actually believe every non-Christian that's sincere Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Baha'i Sikh, atheist, agnostic is positionally possessed by Satan right now. Most evangelicals and charismatic would say no, but it's unbiblical. So Ephesians 1 shows us that our position is possessional and our possession is positional. Ephesians 2 reinforces that. Ephesians 3-10 says that the church of course is the ongoing billboard of Satan's defeat, right which is incredible and I love that. Okay, so once we understand that there's only two communities of human beings in God's eyes, that's why by the way at the book of Revelation again there's the Lamb's Book of Light and the other book. There's only two destinies, two books, two communities which as a side note would help a lot of Christians in their political discourse these days if they realized in God's view there's only two groups of humans. Just want to say that as a side note bonus podcast but I'll do that. Okay, so the question is if that's true upstairs, what's the implication of the upstairs downstairs? And again for those who are more theologically inclined, this is really important. Ephesians, sorry 1 Corinthians chapter 1 verse 1 and 2 where Paul's writing to the Corinthian church. Remember the old translation says to you who are saints or to you who are holy be holy and the best way of saying this is bring your upstairs position downstairs into your everyday life. So to you that are already holy, hey, we would like you to be holy but I thought I was holy, well you are but now work it out down here. So that's the starting point that we need to. Now if I might we're going to go pre-cross to the cross and then post-cross. We good to do this? Let's go. Okay, so the very first critical passage to think through can a Christian have internal influence of the demonic? We'll get to some definitions in a minute. Starts in Luke 13. In Luke 13 you have a really an epic moment where Jesus walks into a synagogue and a woman has a medical condition where she's bent over I think it's for 18 years and cannot stand up. Now again just for our audience's sake this is important. Remember Luke was what? A medical doctor. That's right. Right and so he actually as he's recording this he actually is identifying a genuine medical condition which is still talked about today. It's basically reverse hunchback where she could not stand up because she had a ball of bone at the bottom of the base of her spine and I always do this when I have an extended conversation especially with my more conservative friends and I say okay so let's just let's take what we say and let's see if we believe it. Number one she's in church. She's in synagogue. I know it's pre-cross but you didn't there's no such thing as seeker sensitivity 2000 years ago on the synagogue system. If you're in the synagogue you're invited and known and you're part of the community. You don't get a latte and get a name tag and oh I knew like she is part of an appropriated group that is worshiping the true living God. Second of all I always say to my especially my real and passionate New Testament friends the Old Testament is as inspired as the new right? They go oh yeah yeah I said so it's a live and active right? Yeah yeah I said okay so she has she is choosing to sit under the living word of God in the community of faith worshiping the true living God. Yeah okay so our translation would be she's at church and she's sitting under good Bible preach. Fine. Now she has a medical condition the doctor and the the doctor identifies the medical condition. Jesus walks in and heals her and in the middle of the healing actually identifies that the medical condition that is internal is demonically rooted and so he lays hands on her I believe he lays hands on her in that case she straightens up she becomes a Pentecostal and does a jig and it's really exciting and everyone's so excited and then the pastor gets really pissed off and says this is the wrong day to do this and then Jesus turns around says you care more about donkeys than you do women. Now here's the phrase you care more about your donkey than you do this woman who is a daughter of Abraham whose Satan has kept bound for 18 long years. Yes. All right now this is why this matters and this is why I'm taking this slow and since we got time on the podcast we'll do this. She is the only woman in the whole Bible called the daughter of Abraham no one else and in Luke and theologies because remember Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have theological intention they're not just recording history. Right. Right. It is it is it is not a phrase of ethnicity. Oh she's Jewish it's not even a phrase of oh she's Jewish and in covenant it's actually the Luke way of saying she's saved because when Zacchaeus the wee little man the wee little man was he when when he encounters Jesus and Jesus goes and has dinner what does Jesus declare about him today you've become a son of Abraham even though he was what ethnically Jewish so so this is what's wild about Luke 13 this woman who has been past tense and is still a daughter of Abraham meaning actually saved in right covenant in church under God's teaching every week has a medical condition that is internal that is caused by Satan even though she's in right relationship with Yahweh and she's the only woman identified as saved through that phrase. Yeah that's that's great. So you go okay okay okay this this this messes with my mind and then this brings the next thing up where anyone who's an English speaker reading any of the New Testament translations when you see the word possessed when I say the word possessed and you say the word possessed we as English speakers immediately go possession equals ownership these are my glasses so we go I own those glasses so every time we read in our English Bibles possessed we go well there's no way Satan could be in me because I can't be what owned by Satan I'm owned by Jesus Ephesians 1 but here's the wild thing in New Testament Greek the Greeks were so materialistic and so excited about owning things they would have done very well in the North American ball that they invented not one not two not three they have five different words for owning things one for Gucci one for Louis Vuitton like they were into owning things so if they wanted to talk about possessing something they use one of these five words here's the shocking thing in New Testament Greek none of those words are ever used when you see the word demon possessed never the only thing that is used in original Greek is they had a demon they were vexed by demon they were tormented it was present it never ever so when you read the word possession you need to stop and go linguistically that doesn't mean ownership that just means they have why do you think the translators chose that I just think because it's such a visceral experience of something being in you that makes sense but it's not actually that's why possession means ownership but the actual word that should be used demonized means to be have vexed or tormented but it never has an ownership implication now all my reform friends which is probably only through them on this podcast but for whoever y'all are or other people I know what some people are going they go okay that's very intriguing I've never thought about that before but John that's all pre-crossed that's all pre-crossed so that that doesn't count well of course it counts by the way Paul is not elevated over Matthew, Mark, Luke and John just remember that's right the gospel is written after half of Paul's work side note let's just be academically sound in our honesty but deeper than that if you trans if you go into just pre-crossed and then post-crossed so Peter says to Jesus don't go die and Jesus turns around to Peter and says get behind me Peter no get behind me Satan and the implication is that the origin the idea or the spoken word is not Peter yeah it's demonic well he says you're not mindful of the things of God you're mindful of the things of men so so what's striking about that again is you have another moment where one who is in right relationship now with the Messiah is speak on behalf of or influenced to the point of speaking on behalf of the devil okay post-cross in the book of Acts there's these things I talk about in the book called turf wars and it's every single time the gospel goes forward there are these moments where there's spiritual confront the very first turf war that happens is inside the church and Annias and Sapphira are the great example because Anni- it's during a revival I just this is really important we hear this it's during a revival thousands of people are becoming Christians baptism actually hatred between a Gentile influenced Jews and Hebraic Jews is being reconciled which is incredible Barnabas sells his cottage here in Michigan on one of your lakes Lake Michigan for sure Lake yeah he sells his cottage for a million bucks and gives the church and Annias and Sapphira we want to do this too we all know the story and they it's not wrong they sold the property they just lied about the price Annias walks in and by the way you can't say he's not a Christian there is no context where you can say Annias and Sapphira are not in in the genuine community of faith and why I love this encounter is because it also helps us understand Jesus wrote this in a very articulate way Peter looks at Annias and says why is so why is Satan so filled your heart internal statement because you've lied about the price so discernment and the words of knowledge the way we work it out up here is this discernment is about source what is the plug or the source of what's happening it's not informational a lot of charismatic I think make a mistake and make it informational it's the source is it God is it mental illness is it the tacos from last night is it is it the demonic what's the source that's the sermon why Satan so filled your heart the word of knowledge is because remember we say up here words of knowledge is information you have no access to that bring healing or humility but never humiliation right that's good access right so a word of knowledge Peter goes you've lied about the price word of knowledge door opening event and Satan has now filled you and is trying to gain access foothold into the community and this ain't going to happen here and we'll hang out with Annias since the fire in heaven but they become this holy example for holy fear for us so that is a post-cross moment now back to Ephesians real quick Ephesians one predestined owned dot bought adopted Ephesians two see with Christ and family runs positionally Ephesians three the worst most broken down most dysfunctional most I can't stand each other church on earth is still the living billboard of Satan's defeat which thank God and then we know that's right because he's trying to build unity and then chapter three four and five our husbands and wives churches and leaders slaves and masters how does all that positional possession work out in unity and in chapter four he suddenly stops and says oh by the way if you let anger ex you know go beyond the sunset moment it'll give the devil a foothold now that word in greek is topos t o p o s it's used I think 83 times in the new testament 98.5 percent of the times are rude rigid place space opportunity so this is incredibly important postcross written to by the way the church that's living in the heart of the new age occultic center globally and if you do any studies by the way if you go to barns and noble that's what your bookstores are called down there right we have different names I think there's still a few left yeah yeah or whatever they are yeah but you go to a bookstore and you see the new age section the witchcraft section that self-help section 2000 years ago that would have been called the Ephesians section anything like that was called the Ephesians writings so Paul's writing to a church in that environment and he's already said you're already predestined saved adopted own seated in the heavenly realms and oh by the way a billboard of Satan's defeat if you habitually get involved in anger you will give even though you're predestined and positionally upstairs own you will give the demonic inside foothold foothold is not an external oppression it's an internal statement of rumor region place or space so this is critical because then then this helps us understand and unison sapphire this helps us understand that woman in Luke 13 this helps us understand a lot of stuff because this is saying that you are positionally possessed you are saved because if you look at verse 30 it says and do not grieve the spirit of God assume you're sealed until the day of redemption yeah and I'm an eternal security guy so I'm like you're in you're in you're in so it's done so what he's saying is it is possible to be predestined be a brother of Jesus be clean by his blood be sealed until the day of redemption but if through habitual sin you don't understand what you're doing you will open a left bedroom window and a demonic being not evil in a in a in a metaphor ideal yeah a demonic being will walk into your life will not own you but will have impact inside of you like a squatter that moves into a house it does not own and it destroys the room but doesn't own the house and the door opening event wasn't a Ouija board it was an anger problem wow wow and and then people go oh see it's only anger and I'm like oh no come on guys be you know ladies and gentlemen lots of things yeah because he lists brawling and slander and laziness actually in that passage and all sorts of other things and his point is in that place you can be positionally great and you can be downstairs not possessed but demonized at the exact same time through habitual sin now and that's by the way only one of the five acts that is a door opening event in scripture but that's a critical thing this why this matters is because there are so many of us in churches who love Jesus who read our Bibles and we listen to Nikki Gumbel every day on the Bible app where we're on you version or we do our best more Bibles that these are you know we're all in and we go to connect group we take communion and we serve on worship teams but we have been told their whole life it is impossible for the demonic to inhabit me and then we have no venue to talk about some stuff going inside so maybe one last thought that you can ask me some more questions sorry you just I want to take so much time with this yep is spiritual conflict there's three enemies not one the world of flesh and the devil our flesh is our human desire to break the Ten Command to break God's law it's actually to assault the Creator because sin is always has a God word forced God hates murder because he's a life giving God God you know hates adultery because he's a covenant keeping God so every single time we sin it's an assault against our Creator so that spiritual conflict right how Paul says I want to do the things that I don't yeah world when we see the word world it's the the age that fundamentally runs in different directions against the kingdom and that can have a left view and a right view and a mixed view so all three of these are our enemies what's concerning to me Charismatics and evangelicals historic orthodox conservative people have elevated the evilness of Satan above the other two inappropriately so when I sin and I've sinned in the last 24 hours I wouldn't go oh my goodness I've lost my salvation the spirit of God left because I sinned I would never say to someone well the whole you're not saved how could you be how could you be possessed by the spirit and sin if I had a worldliness experience I wouldn't say I've lost my salvation I'd say the spirit's been grieved so why do we think that the presence of the demonic is more evil than an assault against their Creator or actually a functioning version of an evil kingdom and that sir is because we're uncomfortable well and don't you think that part of why we're uncomfortable with that has way more to do with Hollywood than it has to do with New Testament Christianity or the the inspired canon I mean you can't help but read one of the things you did really I think just beautifully in your book was you go through the gospels each of the gospels and acts and you can't read through that and not see the prevalence and the dominance of demonic influences at multiple different levels as well as spiritual warfare but when we look at especially in a western context American or you know Canadian culture we share the same movies you look at how Hollywood has depicted like through the exorcists or you know whatever you fill in the blank whatever horror movie or supernatural book or movie that you come across how they portray quote possession or demonic activity is vastly different both in power and in scope than what you read about in the New Testament and if you don't have any experience in these type of things you'll look at that and go well that's not me you know I'm not my head's not spinning around and you know crosses aren't burning right well absolutely the other thing though is it depends on how multicultural your city is and this is really important because most cultures around the world they're just like where y'all been we know this is all this is in other words we have functionally as as again Orthodox historic confessional Christians we have functionally act like atheists when it comes to this conversation and we have psychologized away all of the markers that the New Testament uses as a possible sign for the demonic and and so this this is really important there are very violent weird experiences sometimes a hundred percent and there are many people listening who they will go well actually if you really heard what was going on in my mind or if you didn't know actually what I'm tempted with it is pretty bizarre and wild and it scares me and and there's help for that but the other problem is we we just don't even let the scripture speak so like I did in the in in the book I don't just deal with the gospels as recorded history I use them as case study to see what you should expect when you deal with it well right that that changed so much for us in our own context in my own walk when I realized what was taking place maybe if I can just address one thing because I feel it lingering in someone's head somewhere in this podcast jump it someone's someone's going to go like hey but Satan and God can't share the same space and and they're drawing a box and I'm just going to say like what Bible are you reading Job chapter one Satan shared space with the living God now you can say well that's no longer possible because of Christ on the cross that's fine I'm just saying to you the statement that God and Satan cannot be in the same environment is unbiblical Jesus and Satan shared space in the temptations in the wilderness for an extended period of time God is from what I hear on the present yeah so God is imminent perpetually has space so you've got to stop thinking about this as ownership this has to do with grieving if through habitual sin we let the demonic have access think about there's a fire that exists you have a struggle with lust you have a struggle with stealing you have a struggle slander still you know and it's your flesh when the demonic move in it's like they pour kerosene on an existing struggle and manifest it to such a way that it's almost unstoppable and many people who are Christians elders pastors leaders worship people you'd know about they would say in their experience of being saved but delivered they would say that when the demonic left they had the same struggle but the intensity went from 110 to like a 52 yeah I've heard that yeah I've heard that from several people in the same way and you know I think I think a lot of this I know that craft was you know one of your professors and he's written extensively on world views uh the western world you know western secular or western American post enlightenment view of things versus a supernatural world view I think there's a big part of this it touches on this subject but a whole lot of other things where there are so many of us that don't even know how westernized how much of a naturalistic foundation we have in our thinking that we only really put on our supernatural cap you know on Sundays when we go to church and sing about resurrection and angels and salvation and we almost talk about it like it's myth as opposed to reality but the rest of of our week we've got churches full of people that are really living out the the practically living out their faith and it's shaped mostly by a naturalistic world view and that's really only true in the west it's not true like you said in animistic cultures or hindu cultures I've been to India countless times and I mean they don't have one or two deities and the lines between gods and demons are really blurred and you know supernatural is normal everywhere but here yeah but interestingly in this post-modern moment and in this deconstruction moment lots of people are actually now reconnecting with their spiritual roots but they're reconnecting with them in a pagan way so one of the things that pastors can have to do in the next 20 years especially in the states like we're way beyond you we're way down the post-Christian de-Christian we're actually emerging into a redawning paganism up here so our you know as I always keep saying to my American friends you really want to know your future come hang out in London, Toronto not just in Seattle you'll see what your future is going to be because it is coming and what pastors are going to have to do is they're going to have to pivot between enlightenment thinking people post-enlightenment thinking people and pagan and I mean that in the traditional sense spiritual religious people and actually that's going to you're going to have to do ministry three directions at once to either introduce people to the reality or discover the true source of the reality or redirect the reality and that's why it's right there for a second so what is it what is what does that look like pastorally engaging with a pagan culture or an emerging new pagan what's the difference what's the nuance now that you're you're having to deal with yeah so here's a great example so I'm I'm currently preaching through the book of Revelation not because I think it's the end of the world we've been the end time since Jesus said we were which was when he was around but you know when I preach here's all literally at the end of a message say okay here's a great I was talking about the spirit of antichrist talk to him for second third John not the antichrist and I here's a classic phrase I last week I said Hindus speak in tongues and so do Christians both experiences are genuine the question is what is the source that's how you speak to someone who's a supernaturalist you're not denying the experience an enlightened person says you're all stupid grow up and get some science most Christians say that what I'm saying is no I actually don't doubt you speak in tongues my question is not that you speak in tongues my question is my role as a pastor is not to dismiss experience as Paul taught us as Jesus taught us as Peter taught us is to interpret the sourcing experience that's why pastors don't want to do this he's got the time I got programs to run and I'm like well the problem with that is we have these huge underground rivers of experiences in our churches and beyond our churches and our role through spiritual gifts spiritual disciplines and other things even just the knowledge of scripture is to interpret experience so to a pagan person I'm not dismissive of the experience I want them to see the source might not be what they think it is for a Christian I want them to outline is the source Christian or not and if it is how is the growing character of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 13 actually informing how you use that experience and then like so that's what I mean by pivoting it's not it's like in other words no you need a John Lennox thinking person who defends the rationality the theistic understanding of God at the same time as you're going to need social justice people at the same time you're going to need charismatic because actually all three of those venues as I talked about book one word power and love gifts all become apologetic doors into the same kingdom and and and they they tend to be in different churches and they tend to be different movements but they should be incarnated in one church and that takes a lot more work so helping people recognize that not everything that spiritual is holy because I think there's a belief system even in the church and kind of a syncretistic Oprah chicken soup for the soul type of way with Deepak Chopra or whatever it's like we're pulling anything in and saying well if it's spiritual it's got to be good right but not recognizing the source correct and so that so that again when it here's a great just symbolized a simple test for people to think about when we talk about spiritual gift orientation here one of the things we always talked about on the power side of it is any spiritual gift you had pre conversions not from our side and people like what do you mean I said well it's very clear in Romans 12 1 Corinthians 12 Ephesians 4 1 Peter 4 that the spiritual gifts are endowments by the Holy Spirit under the ordination of Jesus it's not a buffet this is where I just reached on the number yeah I I you know John Wimber used to say here's my empty bucket what do I get today I'm like no no no no sorry sorry sorry you're not an I one day in a foot the next day in a year the next day that goes against interdependence that goes against accountability it violates all the subject matter gifts and and at its heart they come with the spirit so if you are not saved that means you're not possessed by the Spirit of Christ which means you don't have Christ and if you don't have the Spirit of Christ you don't have the gift of Christ so many many people who are more spiritualized or experiential say oh you know like I've always had this sense as before I was you know a Christian I also was going to die and now and I'm like not from our side and they're like clairvoyant yeah and I but now I just call a prophecy or I call discernment and I recategorize it under the Christian name and I'm like the problem with that is the source of that existed pre Christ in your life and and then you're like but then they're like well I Satan can't be in me because I'm a Christian I'm like ha that's actually he can and and so if I share a story I was I was I teach a seminary class in spiritual conflict here in Toronto in a trans-denominational seminary and a guy came up to me I'll never forget it free Methodist preparing for ministry I just done a version of this talk and he came up and he was a white guy Caucasian but he was like sheet white like white white white and I I was like are you sick are you okay and he was like he said when you said that thing about gifts and he said like I'm really concerned I said why are you concerned and he said well he says it's the wrong word but I've always been sort of like a psych I said what do you mean he said well I've always just known and he listed all this stuff and I said when do you become a Christian I said it really quickly I said your mom and grandma have it too and he's like how do you know that I said we'll talk about that in a minute I said but do all three of you function in it he said yeah and he said I I used it in my free Methodist church as prophets and I said it's not from our side and then he said but it's done good for the church I said oh I'm sorry results have nothing to do with source right that's so good and so I said do this I went to go I don't get your salvation I don't don't your calling I said go before Jesus tonight the Jesus and say Jesus Christ Son of God who sits at the right hand of the Majesty of God the Father say that Jesus because there are many Jesuses by the way that Jesus he asked him to remove the gift if it's not for him the next day he came back and he said I'm terrified he said I'm blind it's gone I said praise God yeah and he's like do I have to go back and now tell my mom and my grandmother it's not of God I said you absolutely must and by the way we both know free Methodist churches aren't the most like Charismatic let's go churches so rare that's that's an example of source evaluation of gifts with a spiritual conflict lens this is fascinating in fact I can already tell we're gonna we're gonna have to do a part two to this at some point down the road John hopefully you'll come back for that but I got two questions left that I want to ask you one both of them actually are really practical outplaying I think somewhat practical once once for the pastor I'll get to that the first question though is in light of so much of what you've covered and just really articulated so well what are some of the things that you know the a person who loves Jesus with all their heart they've got upstairs positional seated with Christ saved elect the whole ball of wax and they find themselves wrestling with the same controlling habits thoughts you know manifestations in some cases they've been told you know pretty much their whole Christian experience their whole life hey you know hey just got to renew your mind to this or you've got to try harder or this is a sanctification issue which you know obviously that's a very real part of a believer's life but what are some of the things you would say to an individual to look at themselves introspectively or or better yet invite the Holy Spirit that would be indicators in their lives that maybe there's something else going on that is influencing or controlling from the demonic realm what are some of those indicators yeah so the first thing I want to say is this to anyone who's listening don't be afraid every time God shows up and does a profound thing the very first an angel or a prophet or a person says is do not be afraid so don't be afraid the very first thing that Adam and Eve did when they sinned is they hid and and the demonic love hiddenness that's why James 4 and James 5 are so critical in this it's not the whole story but it's part of it you know when it says you know submit yourself there for God resist the devil he will flee but he also says in James 5 confess your sins to each other ask for elders to come in other words if I can say this here right this is a Catholic thing not a cowboy thing this idea that I get to do with me and Jesus already shows you you're hiding this is a community thing this is this has to be done in community there are five ways the demonic get involved and maybe at another time when we maybe get back together and do this again we can work it through but just it's important we catch this habitual says one way they get in another way sex bonding with someone else because it says you know in Genesis it says when the two will become one flesh in the LXX the substitution version it says the two will share one psyche and so when you are involved in lots of sexual activity and many of us have diverse sexual histories that can become a moment of bonding and openness this I'm doing this so people understand where the doors might even open right the third the third is is family agreement and you might totally disagree with this but the Bible is written to communities first an individual second and so many many times and many cultures and many situations I've been praying with people and something will show up and say but I have a right to the family I was invited into this family I was invited into the ethnic group I was invited into this tribal experience so just because you don't believe in it is irrelevant this is war this isn't a phony war this is a real war so communal agreements that have nothing to do with you can have that the fourth one is of heresy false teaching false experiences weed shepherds tarot cards trying to tell the pregnancy of your child with a pen that's that's witchcraft I mean that's divination right and the last one is trauma and again you know we're watching what's happening right now on our feeds at every moment in Ukraine and and we would both go at this moment there is no justice or fairness in war right right right and I think what we need to understand as Christians there is no fairness in war correct so many people who have experienced a horrific trauma and something has actually been done against them and they were not responsible still can become like an opening moment because there's a huge gash in your soul it's not cleaned out and bacteria get in it's not fair it's not right it's not just but it is part of living in the fallen and the brave world so the first thing I'd say is as a Christian are any of those doors open that's just one of the questions asked number two ask Jesus is there something there like ask have not because you ask not and and and don't be afraid he's a good shepherd his father is a good father the spirit of God is present in you he's already conquered all this crap and so to ask him doesn't mean the world's gonna happen and the third thing is if there is something there then one of the things you need to do is just say in community by then we're with a trusted pastor with a group of friends just say Holy Spirit how did how how did this walk in whether I understood it or not and I'm just gonna be the brief stuff I mean no that's great very very hard to make sure we care for people and we have a process and all of that stuff but just in community say oh man you know I didn't know that when I was five and I did Bloody Mary and I just thought it was a joke and it was oh shoot like Lord close that door and and to all the Baptists out there you pray like a Baptist at the beginning then you pray like a Pentecostal later and this really is important because confession is Lord I'm sorry that I've done this I've been unforgiving you can list anything close that door but notice when Jesus dealt with the demonic he never prayed he commanded and most conservatives pray about things but never command things to leave most Pentecostals command things to leave but never pray about door closing you got to close so the image that Kraft you know Kraft was great and him and I disagree in a ton of things actually which you wrote about in the book but but interestingly his image of a hallway is the best one imagine there's a hallway and all these doors are open there's actually garbage in the hallway and rats eating the act of confession and community closes the doors the act of healing and confession sweeps at the garbage and then you tell the rats to leave if you don't get rid of the garbage and you don't close the doors the rats just leave and come through another door Wow that's brilliant I like that so it's just a real simple way to say you know you you need to become a Christian that's the only way you can get set free James 4 James 5 in community and that's when you're Neil Anderson that's when you're a Baptist that's when you're a conservative right closing the doors and then you say you got you gotta go I mean that's the my goodness the three and a half minutes that's the two minutes that's a starting point because I think there might be a lot of people that have never even considered the fact this might be demonic in its orientation and Jesus wants them to have freedom he came to set the captives free and if you know you can't set a captive free who doesn't know he's a captive right and and just I want to pastorally say this very strongly this moment mental illness is real yeah it is real oh that's good and not everything that is mental illness is demonic there have been many cases where we've prayed with someone who has bipolarism schizophrenia dissociative disorder and a demonic present is is actually demonic being is present but it's not those things and I just I got a state of your community as you're listening if you're in medication after this you don't go off your medication right that's so you don't think you don't self diagnose this at all and and I think one of the things we all want we all want it to be demonic because if it's demonic then it can go and and one of the big things that we've all got to understand is even if there's something demonic there and it leaves you're still left with you so your mental illness might not be healed until your resurrection so slowly in community with people that care you take this carefully and if you're like I don't know anyone but you know amazing thing is why don't you ask God to provide people they might just come out of the woodwork right that's that's really good a really good caution thank you for being pastoral in that regard I appreciate that last thing is this and just in a couple of minutes besides your book which let me plug one more time it's called deliverance a journey towards the unexpected it every every one of the listeners really should get this and and take the time to really read through it it's just really it's really rich but besides your book if you're talking to pastors who right now are like going I'm overwhelmed I don't know where to start with this your story of how you came to your model and how you function within community and God's really given you a voice in that arena that took a long time it's an arduous journey what would what would be the starting point for a pastor who maybe has some experience or in some cases no experience in this arena what would be the starting point you would direct them to to begin to explore this yeah okay a few things and by the way I'm Canadian so self-promotion to me is like it's like tooth tooth pulling it's just it's not in our nature I apologize for you you even showing my book I feel totally uncomfortable that's the difference between an American culture and a Canadian culture right there well I just but I just want to say this and it's not self-promotion one of the things you've got to wrestle down is you got to wrestle down your theology and your vocabulary before you wrestle down the praxis you you you got to take your time and like you said to me the reason why I wrote this book is I wanted to theologically show biblically informed people how to be weird well I love that right and and and we were talking earlier again I just I'm sorry it's not self-promotion but the very first book I wrote called convergence what why Jesus need to be more and Savior and Lord in a postmodern world is the whole story of how our church implemented spiritual disciplines and gifts rooted in trinitarian theology and still having a Protestant Reformation worldview the reason why I want to talk about that is because actually that set up the whole conversation of how to do deliverance because actually the whole worldview in the church actually had a different starting point where gifts were not a Sunday school conversation and gifts and disciplines were defined for the community so you could actually start helping people in multiple ways that's great so so again my journey has been convergence was how do I theologically and then practically work out spirit in other words how am I a Calvinist and serve Anglican communion preach like a Southern Baptist but still do spiritual disciplines and spiritual gifts on one church the joke we always have is how if Tim Keller and Andy Stanley and John Wimber and Dallas Willard planted a church together what would we look like and we'd say that's us so the convergence conversation to me is actually in a more significant conversation because it is the linguistic theological practical question about Jesus the Holy Spirit gifts disciplines and discipleship and then once that gets established then you ask the question of how do I do this in the last chapter in deliverance I talked about the three or four pillars that you should begin to install in a church environment to help someone through this process but in a slow process I'd ask some people do the the home work first okay so so that you don't have to promote yourself everybody who's listening should go get convergence and deliverance by John Thompson it's worthwhile it's a great they're it's really rich a lot of experience I'm going to go on reconvergence and then we're going to we're going to schedule something to have you back on if you'll come yeah I'd love to come back hey thank you so much John everybody John Thompson from Sync this church near Toronto helping the body of Christ grow deeper and wider all at the same time in our understanding of Jesus's victory over darkness and our freedom that we can have so thank you so much for joining us thanks God bless you thank you again for joining us stick with us subscribe to the podcast and we'll see you again right here on spirit and truth