 I'm gonna ask you, first let me thank you. Thank you for serving Jesus. Thank you for serving and loving people. Thank you for being here. And thank you for the honor of teaching. And I'm just gonna ask you one favor tonight. And they say I've got about an hour and I get paid by the point and I have a lot of points. So it could be a little longer than that. But I'm gonna ask, I'm gonna pray for you in just a moment. For one hour, I know many of you are ministry leaders and pastors or most of you are. For one hour, could I just have the great gift of being your pastor? Just one hour. You're all pastors, ministers, and you're always pouring out, okay? And it would be a great honor if for one hour, you would just let me be your pastor and hopefully pour into you. That's my hope, okay? Cause I love you and it's an honor to be here with you. And if you don't like me in one hour, I don't have to be your pastor anymore. I'm just asking for one hour. That's all I'm asking for. And so Father, thank you so much for this opportunity to teach. Thank you for Pastor Stephen and sending the worship team from elevation. And God, we pray for the health and strength and growth and continued expansion of their church and ministry, God. And it has been remarkable to see since the early days, all of the people that have met Jesus through that church and ministry. We thank you for that. And pray for their souls. And God, thank you for all of the churches and all of the ministries and all of the networks and all of the states and all of the nations and all of the denominations and all of the families that are represented here in the room tonight. And God, these are people who pour themselves out. Would you refresh, encourage and fill them? And God, I ask right now, Holy Spirit that you would take this bit of time that I have to open your word and to open their understanding so that Lord God, they could be as healthy and as effective and as joyful and as hopeful and as fruitful as they could possibly be in Jesus' good name, amen. So what I want to talk to you about is relationships. How many of you went to Bible college or seminary? Okay? And it was awesome until you got into ministry and had to deal with people, amen. Ministry is like communism. It always works on paper. And once you get people involved, it doesn't work so well, okay? How many of you in Bible college or seminary found theology a lot easier than ministry? How many of you find ideas a lot easier to manage than people, amen? Now I know that you have a lot of relationships. The sociologists tell us that the average person interacts with between 500 and 2,500 different people a year, okay? Some of you are introverts. Some of you have fewer relationships. Most of you, because you're in ministry, you're those extroverts. You're the people, people, amen? So there's about 1,000 of you here tonight. Let's assume that because you're in ministry, you have let's say maybe 2,000 people that you are interacting with during the course of a year. That means in this room tonight are 2 million relationships if I did my math right and I went to public school and I may not have, okay? So I'm gonna put a footnote on that. How complex is it all of the relationships that you are managing? And then these are individual relationships, but then these people have relationships with each other that complicates all of your relational variables. In addition, the sociologists tell us that we spend upwards of 40% of our time with the same five people. How many of you are married and you've got four kids, right? Well, that means automatically a couple of people are getting neglected. I mean, your dance card is full. And so what happens is you've got your relationship with Jesus, your relationship with your spouse, then your individual relationships with all of your kids. If you're older, maybe even your grandkids, then extended family and friends and then you add to that all the burdens and complexities of ministry. And I started asking this question, how did Jesus manage all of his relationships? Right, Jesus has family. He has enemies, critics. He has crowds that are following him all the time. 5,000 men plus women and children assemble at one time. That's a lot of people who wanna have a relationship with him. And so what I wanna share with you tonight is some insights as to the relational life of Jesus and let's look at Jesus as a ministry leader who has enemies, demonic people that are opposed to him, extended family, friends, those indeed, all the things that you and I are dealing with. And when it comes to the ministry life of Jesus, I wanna start with eight laws of relationships and I'll work through these fairly quickly. The first is the law of hospitality. Let me tell you this. You should be friendly toward all and friends with a few. There's a difference between being friendly and friends. How many of you have been in ministry for more than 15 minutes and this makes sense? When you first get into ministry, people want you to be their friend but then you realize I can't have that many friendships so you need to be friendly toward all but friends with a few. Jesus was friendly toward all but he was friends with a few. Let's just do a little interaction. Name for me some of Jesus' closest, nearest, dearest relationships and friendships. John, Peter, James and John, the three, Larry, Curly and Moe. Lazarus, he was close with. Mary and Martha, Lazarus' two sisters, he went to their house a lot, they were close. So these were his friends so he had some friends so he was friends with a few but he was friendly toward all. That's the law of hospitality. The law of capacity. You have finite limitations. When he was on the earth in his humanity, Jesus had certain limitations. You only have so much time, energy and money for your relationships. There's the law of capacity. What we tend to do is we tend to look at the Bible and say, look at the woman that Jesus met within Samaria and the answer is who else did he meet with? Well, no one. He met with one person. Then there was a revival that broke out but it doesn't say that he stayed in Samaria and scheduled more appointments with every person. When we read that Jesus healed people, we're like, that's amazing. Imagine all the people he didn't heal. Right, I was preaching through John's Gospel a year or so ago. He goes down to a pool. It's surrounded by people who have been coming every day for years to be healed and he shows up and heals. One guy. We're like, that's amazing. The guy next to him was like, not so much. You know. So we look at everybody that Jesus ministered to but we also need to look at all the people that Jesus didn't minister to. And that is the law of capacity. How about this one, the law of priority. That is that all people are equally valuable in the sight of God but certain people get access that other people don't. So there were, you guys named it, Peter, James and John. Those were the three. Those are his nearest and dearest relationships. They're there for the healing of Jairus' daughter, the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. They're there in the unique spots. After that, there is the 12. After that, there's a number of 40 or 120 or 5,000. And what we learn from the law of priority is that not everyone gets equal access to Jesus. Not everyone has equal time with Jesus. How many of you find this very difficult in ministry? It's the law of priority. You only have so much time. Do you give it to them or them? You only have so much energy. Do you give it to them or them? And if you overextend yourself relationally, you're going to find yourself also then experiencing the law of jealousy. This is a subset of the law of priority. Let me ask you this. Is jealousy a good thing or a bad thing? Yes. It can be a bad thing. If you're a single gal with a jealous boyfriend, we'll just give you a moment, text him and break up because that's bad. Now let's say though that we read the Bible, does God ever say that he's a jealous God? Do you know why God says he's a jealous God? Because when we violate the law of priority, we provoke God's jealousy. Jealousy is not necessarily a bad thing. It means someone is in my place. When anyone or anything is in God's place, he gets jealous because the law of priority, he wants to be what priority in our life? Number one. Let me tell you what God is often jealous of with ministry leaders, ministry. Because some people will say, I am serving God. No, you're not. You're serving ministry in the name of God and God is jealous for you because you have made ministry your first priority. You have made ministry into God because it's for God. You're saying it is God and God is saying that the relationship with him is different than your employment from him. I love grace with all my heart. We've been together 26 years. I always say, my initials are M-A-D, Matt. Her name is Grace. So if we have a fight, it's my fault. That's just what I've learned. If we're at the dinner table and Grace has her phone and she answers it, I get frustrated. You know why? That's family time, our time, law of priority. Law of priority. And early on in ministry, we had a hard time maintaining the law of priority. Grace's daddy was a pastor and everybody would call and come by and there was no real line between ministry and family. So everyone in the ministry just felt like they were part of the family. I'm jealous to have my best time and energy with the Lord and then my wife, Grace. And then with each of my kids. And let me tell you, if you start feeling jealous, it's because the law of priority is violated. If your kids start feeling jealous of the ministry, it's because the law of priority is violated. If your spouse is feeling jealous of your time and energy and the interruptions and disruptions, it's because the law of priority has been violated and that triggers the law of jealousy. Does this make sense? And what you can do as a ministry leader, if all you do is violate your priorities to go take care of emergencies, then the children are being taught the only way to become a priority is to create an emergency. This is why pastors' kids rebel. If all their parents do is meet with messed up people, I guess I need to get messed up to get some time with them. So the law of priority is first things first. Let me say this as well, Pastor Lee and I were talking about this. We're now 48 years of age. We are at the age when both of us would testify and how many of you are a little older. You're starting to see at about the mid-40s, marriages that they were Christians. They seemed to love the Lord. They're maybe even in full-time ministry or serving in the church. And all of a sudden the kids start launching and heading off to college or getting married and the marriage absolutely implodes. They don't like each other, there's adultery and they still say they know Jesus and you're like, what the heck happened? The law of priority was violated. The gravitational center of your home, life, universe and family has to be your relationship with Jesus. If it is your children, what happens when your children leave? The center of your universe is gone and your relationship with your spouse spins out of orbit. The center of your gravitational universe has to be your priority, relationship with Jesus, then your spouse, not your family. You had a marriage before your kids came, you should have a marriage after they go, amen? So your priority is God, then your spouse, then each of your children, when they're little, they're kind of like a herd. As they get bigger, their personalities and interests are different and you need to have a relationship with each one of them. How many of you have learned that in the teen years? They get a driver's license and an opinion. You've now got to give more time. And then your ministry, that's the law of priority. The law of seasonality is that some relationships are for a lifetime, most are for a season. Ecclesiastes three says there's a time and a season for everything, a time to embrace, hug each other and a time to refrain from embracing. The relationship is transitioned. This is one of the hardest things in ministry because as you have relationships, sometimes people will move away and they don't want the relationship to change. So does people will leave your ministry and hate you and post on social media and blog about you and still want you to pastor them. They quote verses about love and you're like, I was gonna quote that verse. You know, like, I'm not feeling wrong. How many of you, it's a situation where maybe it's a husband and a wife and the husband goes negative and the wife has to go with him but the wife still wants to be friends with the woman in ministry or the pastor's wife. And all of a sudden, all this relational complexity. When Jesus was little, he lived for a while in Egypt. We don't know anything about those people and those relationships. Jesus grew up in Nazareth. We really don't know anything about those relationships. There are relationships that Jesus had before he started public ministry and other than family members like Zachariah and Elizabeth and John the baptizer, we don't know about those because those relationships didn't carry forward into the future. One of the ways you're gonna exhaust yourself relationally is you're going to take every relationship from the past and continue it unchanged into the future and eventually you're gonna find your law of capacity. You just can't have that many relationships. That is the law of seasonality. Here is the law of safety. Number five, love all people, trust few. Love is free, trust is earned. Love is free, trust is earned. The Bible tells us to love people. Does it tell us to trust them? No, because love is free and trust is earned. Jesus loves everybody, but he doesn't trust everybody. There are people that are trying to harm him. There are people that are trying to kill him. There are mobs that are literally trying to destroy him. Love is free, trust is earned. And in ministry, people will confuse these two because you love them, they expect you to trust them. You can give your love immediately, but they need to earn your trust over time. When we were brand new in ministry, we started having kids. There was a very sweet person that very, very well came up to me after a service and said, hey, we know you guys got little kids and we'd love to babysit them and watch them. And I said, no. And this very sweet person, I have the gift of offense, bluntness, and that's not an apology. That's an acknowledgement. So this person said, we'd love to watch you again. And here's what I said. No. And they were like, oh. This person asked, don't you trust me? I said, no, I don't know you. As a general rule, I don't trust people I don't know. Amen? That's why I don't walk down the street and give people my debit card. I don't know them. I don't trust them. And I don't give them my kids. So love it. That's the law of safety. Not everybody's safe. How many of you have met some dangerous people in ministry? Okay, so you are the veterans. I got it. I could see all the kids in Bible calls. You're like, what? We love the Lord. It's going to be amazing. It's going to be amazing. We're going to pray and sing. Nope. At graduation from Bible college, they should have given you a helmet and a cup because you're going to need both. Instead of the diploma, that's what they should have gave you. Girl, do I need a cup? Yeah, it's that bad. He used to do this. We thought he was better now. I don't know. Okay. How about number six? The law of clarity. The law of clarity. How many people don't understand what their relationship is with you? Let me give you an example. I live in Scottsdale, Arizona. And I think that turn signals on cars should be an option package there because no one uses them. And everybody just changes lanes. So if you're on one of the highways in Scottsdale, the highways are big. Let's say there's six lanes. Everybody gets a lane. And if somebody comes into my lane, you know what I do? I minister to them. That's what I do. I minister to them. Okay. So in your life, you've got your relationship with the Lord, your spouse, your kids, your close family, your close friends, your extended family, your coworkers. You have all of these lanes. And everybody needs to drive in their lane. And sometimes what you need to do when somebody is driving in the wrong lane, you need to minister to them. Okay. And you do this with two things. Transition talks and closure conversations. A transition talk is what Jesus had with Peter. Remember Peter, right? Here's why we love Peter. We all love Peter. You know why we love Peter? He always gets it right the third time. That's why we love Peter, right? That's Peter. So Peter denies Jesus, right? And then Jesus meets with him and they have a transition talk. Peter, do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love me? Yes, yes, yes. What Jesus is saying is, for our relationship to continue, you're gonna need to change some things. What Jesus is telling Peter is, I'm willing to have a relationship with you, but not on your terms. My relationship with you will be on my terms. Because Peter's terms were, I can deny you publicly. Jesus is like, that doesn't work for me. That doesn't work for me, especially as the leader of the disciples. With some people you need to have a transition talk saying, if things don't change, the relationship will change. You were driving in this lane, you were my friend and you may be an acquaintance, but no longer a friend. You used to have my cell phone number. I'm changing it. And I didn't accidentally forget to give it to you. There are also closure conversations. Those are the talks to not talk anymore. For some of you that are highly relational, these will be hard. Jesus had a closure conversation with Judas Iscariot. He met with Judas. Do you remember what he told him? We're done. You're gonna do it anyways. You go do your thing, I'll go do mine. We part ways here. There are times with people that you need to have a transition talk and that is if things don't change, your lane will change. You may go from staff to enemy, but you're gonna decide what lane you drive in based upon your behavior. A closure conversation is, we've talked about this a lot and we're not talking anymore. We're now moving on and we are parting ways. Jesus did it. You shouldn't do it a lot. Jesus didn't do it a lot, but you need to keep that as an opportunity for certain relationships. Number seven, the law of idolized demonize. Jonathan Edwards, who was probably the greatest theologian in the history of the United States of America, he had this concept of idolized demonize. And if I could summarize, he says that those who idolize you will eventually demonize you. Oh, that struck a nerve. Wow. Did you hear that? Did you hear that? It sounded like about a third of you got punched in the sternum. Okay? You know why? You've experienced this. There are people that will walk into your ministry. Here's what they'll say. I love you. You're amazing. You great. You changed my life. There's no one like you. You are such a godly person. I'll do anything for you. You're like, you're gonna kill me. You're gonna kill me. You're gonna kill me. How many of you have seen that? Here's why. They have chosen you to have Jesus' job description. Be perfect, be wise, never leave me, nor forsake me, always forgive me, never disappoint me. Be my Jesus. The clock is ticking. It's only a matter of time. Okay? Jesus, early in his ministry, had a crowd that was crying, Hosanna, Hosanna, Hosanna. Idolize. Later on, shouting. Crucify, crucify, crucify. You need to know that sometimes the people that most loudly and most quickly sing your praises are the most dangerous. How many of you have found this to be true? Oh, so you've seen this. And then the law of economy, number eight. So let me ask this. Who gets the best gas mileage of any car in the room? Who gets the best gas mileage? Tell me. What do you get? You get 55, what do you, drive a bike? That's amazing, okay? Who gets better than 55? Anybody? And electric cars don't count. That's cheating, okay? Who gets, who can get better than 55 miles a gallon? Anybody going once, going twice? Somebody who has the public courage to raise a hand and confess that they own a Prius? Anyone? Anyone? Okay. You do, how many miles do you get to the gallon? Depends on how you drive it. That's confession, this is an honest place, it's safe. Okay. You own two Priuses. Wow. No, for that amount of money you could get one big truck. I'm gonna have to sell it. What's that? A Hummer H1X, okay. Have you ever, have you ever drag race the two Priuses against a golf cart? So, no, okay, so, how many miles to the gallon do you get in the Prius? 45 to 50, okay. Who gets the worst gas mileage? Detroit, right? I mean, we're not far from Detroit. What do you get, buddy? 12 or 13? That's nothing, I get worse than that. I have a Jeep that I put a pedal commander in and it just dumps a ton of gas and I don't care. You know, I don't care. So, I don't care how much money I spend to get somewhere, I just want to get there fast in a vehicle that's tall enough that if I need to, I can drive over the Prius. That's my, that's a value for me, okay. So, okay. No, I prayed about it, so it's fine. So, who gets worse gas mileage than our 12 miles? What do you get? Six. You may need a tune-up. I'll just, what do you drive? Oh, you got a Dodge? A Chevy 25, oh, a truck. Okay, okay, okay. I would pray about checking the gas tank for a leak. Okay, but six miles, what are you, are you towing a motor home? Okay, okay, six miles a gallon. Okay, okay. Okay, so here's my point. Here's my point, right? Relationships are like vehicles. In a vehicle you travel with people, in a relationship you travel with people, some people get really good gas mileage. Some people get really terrible gas mileage, right? Here's what I'm talking about. Have you met, do you have a friend you're like, I get a little time with them? We're great, you get another person? You're like, this relationship, I gotta pull over, I gotta get out, and I gotta push it, right? You just, it keeps running out of gas. It's so exhausting. Some people take so much time, so much energy, so much money, and here's how you know who those people are, and if you don't have those people in your life, you're that person. Okay, I hate to break it to you. Hey, I don't write the mail, I just deliver it. Okay, I have to tell you. But you know who those people are when your phone rings and you're like, ah, ah, if I answer, they're gonna kill me. If I don't answer, they're gonna kill me. And if you know, if you leave it on voicemail, they're gonna assign you work, those people. They're like, hey, I just need you to, lead my kids to Christ and pray over my sadness, and make sure my wife stops seeing her boyfriend. Thanks, pastor. You're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't agree to any of that. I didn't agree to any of that, okay? You're laughing, because that's not a hypothetical situation you've experienced. You're like, how does he know about Tony? That's crazy. Bad gas mileage, okay? Some get good gas mileage, some get bad gas mileage. Okay, so that was the introduction. It wasn't really a sermon. I'm like a groupon. You always get one in another one. So here's the other sermon. So when it comes to people, three ways to view people, okay? We'll go to John 2, 24 through 25. Here's what it says in the New Living Translation. Jesus didn't trust them. For some of you, that's your new memory verse. That's your life verse, okay? Jesus didn't, or you're like, I got everything I wanted out of the radiant conference. That's how I'm good. I can go now. Jesus didn't trust them, because he knew all about. How many of you have been in ministry for a while and you've learned a lot about people, okay? No one needed to tell him about human nature before he knew what was in each person's heart. So let me say there's three ways to view people. One is naive. How many of you started ministry? Naive, naive. You're like, I'm gonna love everybody and bless everybody and be nice to everybody. And I'm gonna sing that Luke Bryan song. I believe most people are good, right? So let me tell Luke Bryan, he's a Pallagian. So are most people good? That's the way we have doors on our house with locks and a gun behind the locked door. And a dog behind the gun behind the locked door. We don't believe most people are good. That's naive. How many of you got into ministry? Naive. You're like, I'm gonna love you and love you and what happens then is 15 minutes into ministry you become paranoid. You're like, they're all demon possessed. Elder is the Greek word for demon. That guy's ready to take an offering. That's it right there, that's what I, okay. You become paranoid, right? How many of you are a little bit, you've been burned, hurt, beaten and you've gone from naive to paranoid? Like I don't trust anybody. Or how many of you, your spouse has gotten there? Paranoid is, man, I don't know who I can trust. This is not a healthy culture. These people are dishonest. You get, some of you are a little paranoid. You need to stop watching Liam Neeson movies, okay. You need to find your way over to the lifetime channel and heal up, okay. So between naive and paranoid, there is discerning. Okay, discerning, discerning. How do you be discerning? Well, here's the problem. It says that Jesus was discerning because he knew people's heart. The Bible says that we see the outward but that God sees the heart. How can you be discerning? You're gonna need the ministry of the Holy Spirit to really have discernment with people. Because only the Holy Spirit really knows the heart. Here's what I have learned. I have learned that my wife has spidey senses. How many of you, how many of you, the worst mistake you made in ministry, you're like, I really like them. I think they're great. And your spouse is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They read the Bible and thought the Pharisees were too conservative. No, no, no, no, no, no. And so what happens is early in ministry I didn't listen to my wife's discernment. So you laugh, she didn't. I wish she would have. That would have went better for me. But nonetheless, we are better together. How many of you think that men read men better than women? How many of you women think that you read women better than men? You do. Okay, all right, you do. And so for me, when I'm dealing with people, I need my wife Grace involved because it's not good to be alone and we're better together. And the Holy Spirit is in her and she has a spiritual gift of discernment. In an addition, the times that I have not invited her in or I have not heated her counsel are some of the worst mistakes I've ever made. Okay, discernment is knowing the heart. The Holy Spirit knows the heart. And here's what's very hard when it's getting to know people. Some people are overt. They don't have an inner model on, right? They just live out there. Who was the disciple that was just overt? Peter, right? He's telling you what he's thinking. When he shouldn't be, right? He's the guy who grabs a sword. That's very overt. He's against 600 soldiers and he grabs a sword. Okay, and he gets an ear. Let me tell you this. No one goes for the ear. Right? You know, there's no metal pinning ceremony for warriors or like, yeah, we got a lot of ears. We got a lot of ears. So Peter's overt and a little goofy, right? Who's covert? Judas is covert. If we would have been following the storyline of Jesus' ministry and said, okay, somebody's gonna betray him. Who would we have picked? Peter. The guy who cusses Jesus out, denies him and cuts the guy's ears off. The overunder in Vegas is not good for Peter. Judas never said or did anything. When I was preaching through John's Gospel, it says that after he was filled by Satan. So let me tell you this. God's gonna fill some people in your ministry and so is Satan. Satan fills Judas. Judas leaves the Last Supper, comes back with 600 armed Roman soldiers, plus religious leaders, plus their armed guards. They all have clubs, swords and torches and they have a legal decree from the court system to arrest Jesus in the middle of the night which is against the law. Let me ask you this. Did he put that together quickly or over an extended period of time? Do you know how hard it is to get the Jews and the Romans to work together? It's harder than getting the Democrats and Republicans to work together. Judas was covert. He was stealing from Jesus the entirety of his ministry, plotting against him and the problem with covert people, they're sneaky. They're dishonest. They're flatterers. They hide literally in the shadows. They don't draw attention to themselves until at the last moment, everything they have been plotting and planning, it goes public. How many of you have had covert people in your ministry? And if you would have looked, if you'd look at Judas, you're like, he sat there for every teaching that Jesus gave. But he didn't agree with it. You need to know that right now in your ministry possibly even in your leadership, you need to know that just because they're listening doesn't mean they're agreeing. That's covert. That's covert. So you got to pray to the Holy Spirit. You got to give it time and seek wise counsel, starting with your spouse to have relational discernment. So what I want to tell you now is going to be counter-intuitive, but it'll be helpful. And that is that we should treat different people differently. Are people equal as image-bearers of God? Yes. Are people equal in their fallenness? Yes. Are people equal in their need for Jesus? Yes. Are people equal in terms of safety and wisdom for having a relationship with? No. So we treat people differently and people decide how we treat them based upon how they behave. So if somebody says, I want you to treat me like this, I'd love to, you need to behave in this way and then I will treat you in that way. But you can't act like an enemy and expect me to treat you like a friend. If you want me to treat you like a friend, you need to act like a friend. So there are three kinds of people, evil, wise, foolish. We'll read Proverbs 24. If you know your Bible and I know you do, can you think of a lot of verses about evil people or the wicked? There's a lot of them, right? In what book particularly? Proverbs. Can you think about foolish people? Is the Bible saying anything about foolish people? Yeah? Yeah, it says a lot like in Proverbs. Wise people are those who are wise or those who are filled with the spirit of wisdom. It says a lot. So you can find the verses. Let me just give you three categories in one section, Proverbs 24. Be not envious of what kind of men. Evil, evil. You need to keep a category of evil. Some people are evil. If almost everybody's in that category, you might be paranoid or wounded. Okay? Be not envious of evil men nor desired to be with them for their hearts devise violence and their lips talk of trouble. Number two, a wise man of full of strength and a man of knowledge enhances his might for by wise guidance you could wage your war in an abundance of counselors there is victory. Wisdom is too high for a third category. Why? Fool. In the gate he's not open his mouth. Let me deal with evil, foolish and wise people. Not a shameless plug, but this is two chapters in the book Spirit Filled Jesus. And I was looking at how Jesus was filled by the Holy Spirit to have healthy relationships while in ministry. Now, evil people, they are intentionally dangerous. They're not accidentally dangerous. They're intentionally dangerous. They oftentimes in their past have been abused or traumatized. They have not healed from that. It is given a demonic stronghold through bitterness. They now see themselves as a victim who has the right to say and do what they want and they're self righteous. And if you see them, you will have some compassion for them but you need to understand that they're still dangerous. In addition, evil people, they have been hurt and they hurt people. They are tormented by demonic spirits and they torment other people. Some of you have people who are tormenting you and Satan is tormenting them and he begins to torment you through them. They tend to be high control, demanding, domineering, overbearing. They tend to bring with them a spirit of fear. They're dangerous so you're scared of them. People are intimidated by them because they work through threat and fear and punishment. They're not love based, they're law based. They tend to have win-lose scenario. They're always winning at someone else's expense. They are very low on empathy and compassion. They're not thinking about what they are doing and how it is affecting others. And let me say this, evil people live by the power of demonic spirits and forces. Here's the one I say, make this simple for it. Evil people live by the power of the demonic. Foolish people, which we'll get to, live by the power of the flesh. Wise people live by the power of the spirit, okay? If you wanna be wise, be filled with the spirit. You wanna be foolish, nurture your sinful, foolish fallen flesh. If you wanna be evil, invite demonic spirits and powers into your life through bitterness, unforgiveness, self-righteousness, unhealed hurts. Evil people, evil people require a professional relationship. Foolish people require a pastoral relationship. With wise people, you can have a personal relationship. You're wise, filled with the spirit. Maybe we could be friends. You're foolish, living out of the flesh. I need to be your pastor, set boundaries. We'll deal with this in a moment. You're evil, demonic. We need a professional relationship. Here's what I need you to know about evil people. They are not beyond help, but they may be beyond your help, okay? How many of you have tried to help an evil person and you didn't have the ability to help them? They needed a professional. If you're dealing with someone who they're like, I am attracted sexually to children. They need a professional. I just like to hit my wife. You need a professional. Heroin is my best friend. You need a professional, okay? I learned this early on in ministry. I'll never forget, it was one of the, I was 20, some years old, senior pastor. I met with this couple and the woman said, she said, well, I just don't feel like we're doing so good in our marriage and I'd love for you to talk to me. Just very vague, nebulous. You're like fog, I can't see the horizon. So I finally got him to sit down and her to sit down and he kept giving her the stare like, if you say anything, it's gonna be painful for you. I could tell he was a fear punishment, domineering, overbearing, threatening kind of guy. And I finally just said, hey, look, I just wanna cut to the chase. Name one thing that he does that causes you to not like this marriage. She said, well, you know, when the kids or I do something bad, he'll take the dog dish and he'll put it on the dinner table and place of our plate and put our dinner in it as punishment for making him unhappy. We have to eat out of the dog dish and I hate it when he does that to me, it's embarrassing. The dinner table is supposed to be practice for the kingdom of God where we sit out at the father's table. The dinner table for this family was a nightly demonic torment. And the fear every night was, who gets the dog dish tonight? I looked at this man and I said, you're evil. What you're doing is demonic. You need professional help. You all have more stories than I do and worse stories than I've shared. When you meet someone that is evil and they are demonic, they need professional help. This is where you call a cop. You call an attorney. You get a licensed therapist. You maintain distance. You don't work with them because if you engage, you will enrage, okay? Now Jesus had a relationship like this with a guy named Judas. Judas was evil and demonic and Jesus maintained a professional boundary. They were no longer in close relationship. Number two, foolish people. Everyone is foolish at points and times and days and ways. Amen? We all are, so let's just give grace. Foolish people are not less intelligent or less educated. Sometimes they're very smart. They're so smart that they get you to take care of their responsibilities. How many of you? I just explained your 22-year-old son. You're like, dang, okay. They're irresponsible. They're unteachable and here's the deal with foolish people. Foolish people don't make plans, but they make excuses. You can either take your energy and make a plan or make an excuse. A wise person makes a plan. A foolish person makes an excuse. Foolish people deny reality. They deny reality. How many of you have seen this in counseling? You ask the husband, how's it going? He's like, we're doing, I feel like we're doing great. I think we're doing great. Bring in the wife, how's it going? She's like, I'm cleaning my gun, reading the Old Testament. Sir, I don't feel like it's going great. No, I thought we're doing great. You need to, even if you can't live in reality, just visit once in a while, right? And here's what I tell people. I tell people like, here's what I believe in. I believe in Jesus and math. Some people come in, they're like, we're gonna be fine, like, no, you don't make any money. Oh, it'll be fine. No, you need to, we believe in Jesus. You need to believe in Jesus and math, okay? And you need to run the numbers, right? Like, right? Your family is not fasting, right? This is not spiritual. They're hungry, right? Just dealing, okay, I shouldn't say this, but I will. So I was dealing with a guy recently. He comes in, he's just not healthy. He's not healthy. I said, I said, what's going on? He's like, I don't know why I don't feel good. I was like, I could tell you why you don't feel good. You can't see the scale. You need to believe in math, right? And if you step on the scale and you can't see it, and if you gotta take a photo of it to see what the number is, you need to deal with reality. Now, that's offensive, right? You know what? Reality's like gravity. It exists whether or not you believe it. Reality is like gravity. It exists whether or not you like it. And some people need to just deal with reality. Hey, your accountability group of Jim Bean, Jose Cuervo, and Johnny Walker is not a good accountability group, right? You just need to deal with reality. Some people think it's funny. The others are leaving. Okay, fine. So, foolish people as well, they're selfish. Meaning they didn't mean to cause a burden, but they do. And they blame shift. What foolish people do as well, foolish people are burden givers, not burden lifters. Ah, how many of you? There are people in your life, they're burden lifters. They're coming to you, they're like, how can I help you? Like, I love you. Other people are coming. Oh, gosh, no. Oh, no, no, no, no. And you can tell, because here's the church secret. Okay, here's the church secret. Here's what you do. You see them? You look at the floor. You just don't make eye contact. Don't make eye contact. Pretend like I got a call. I got a call, bro. I got a call. I got a call. I got a call. Because they're burden givers. They're like kryptonite. Here they come, you feel the life force leaving your body. In addition to being burden givers and not burden lifters, they're life draining, not life giving. How many of you, 15 minutes with one person and you need a sabbatical? You're like, they took my life energy for a year. That's a foolish person. They're exhausting. What irresponsible, foolish people do, they look for overly responsible people to dump their responsibilities on. Yeah, they're like a big truck. Boop, boop, boop. They dumped all their responsibilities on you. I had a guy, I'm back. I'm in a church plant now and I have wonderful people and I love them. But I got there recently, he's like, my wife and I are having trouble. This is a true story. And this is kind of therapeutic for me so thank you for participating. Not everything I say is edifying but it's helpful for me. So thank you. He comes up to me and he says he's like, my wife and I are really struggling. I said, okay, he's like, could you help? I said, well, what do you think? He's like, could you take her out for coffee and talk to her? That's adultery, so no. My goal is not to have a really good date with your wife. I feel like that's your job. Well, we're just fighting a lot now and she doesn't want to talk to me. One, two, three, not it, right? That's you, bro, that's you. Foolish people are mainly motivated by pain. You notice that? Well, my wife left, they kicked me out of the house. I should probably pray about getting a job. Yeah, you probably should, okay? In addition, foolish people, here's the key. They may be fun, but nobody respects them. So sometimes they even think they're leaders. They're not. They're rodeo clowns. Na na na na na na na na na. And everybody's like, they're amazing. Do you want to marry them? Oh, of course not. Hire them, certainly, no. They're fun because they don't think about consequences, right? How many of you have that friend? That friend in high school who would do anything for a dollar. For a dollar. Somebody like, but it was a whole dollar. Okay, so you have that friend. You're like, you want to light off fireworks and run naked across the school lawn? They're like, no, I'll give you a dollar. Well, I don't know. You're like, what the heck? So they're fun, but they're not respected, amen, okay? So what do you do with foolish people? You can make them greeters. I mean, they're good at the front door. I don't have a lot of notes. I'm making some of this up as I go. I'm not gonna lie to you. And I think the best way to illustrate folly is to be foolish. So this is my effort to serve you, okay? So foolish people live by the power of the flesh. So what you have with them is a pastoral relationship. Okay? When they're like, hey, bro, you want to hang out? I am pastor, bro. Okay, you got to respect me. What you give them is consequent. They need to call the office, schedule appointment. They can't come to your home or text you or have their wife text your wife. Also, you need to give them assignments, which is I will not meet with you again until you do this assignment, right? So there's one guy, if he watches this, I apologize for being honest, but I met with this guy and I said, I said, I will not meet with you again until you read a particular book of the Bible. He's like, what? I said, I'm going to give you an assignment and if you'll do it, I will meet with you until you do the assignment, I will not meet with you. It's been over a year. He still comes, he's like, when are we going to meet? I said, how's that book of the Bible? He's like, oh yeah. Write it on your hand, bro. I mean, what I like, you forgot every day for a year. I know the Holy Spirit reminded you because he wrote the book and he wants you to read it. Okay? Assignments, boundaries. Now let me say this as well. With foolish people, does gravity pull them over time toward wisdom or evil? If you are foolish, it is more of a temporary place than a permanent residence. People that are foolish, eventually they move toward evil. That's why there needs to be more of a sense of urgency. Wise people. Now, if you are thinking, finally, we've arrived at my category. I've been waiting for this. This took a while. I want it to be ministered to. I assure you, this is not your category. Okay, so no one is wise in every area. Amen? You ever met a guy who's like, I'm really good with numbers and money? How about people? He's like, I don't know, they're scary. Right, there are people that are good with people. There are people that are good with them. People are good and wise in different areas. Nobody's wise in every area, of course, except for Jesus. The wise people are not the most intelligent or educated. They're just humble and teachable. So you can have brilliant people that are evil. You can have completely uneducated people who are wise because it's the presence of God that brings the wisdom of God. And if they're spending time in the presence of God, they will have the wisdom of God. Wisdom has more to do with the receptivity of your soul than the capacity of your mind. They are self-motivated to mature. These are people that ask questions and they're ridiculously awesome people. How many of you, you have a person in your ministry, they ask a question, you tell them to do something, they do it and you're like, you're like a unicorn, I've heard of you, but I didn't think you were real. I didn't think you were real. I thought people that asked questions and obeyed were mythical creatures. That's wisdom. We had a Sunday recently, a person walked in, non-Christian for the first time, they come up front and they're like, okay, so I'm a sinner and I need Jesus. I said, yeah, they said, okay, how do I get them? Ah, ah, yay, a layup, finally. And I tell them and they're like, okay, and they pray to receive Jesus. They're crying, I said, what do I do now? I said, well, you need to read the Bible. I'm like, will you give me one? Yeah, I gave him a Bible. They said, where do I start? I said, I'm starting John. They came back the next week. How'd it go? Yeah, I really read John. I'm learning about Jesus. What next? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Hey, you got to go talk to that guy that I told to read the Bible a year ago. You got to talk to that guy, all right. They ask questions. They're curious. In addition, they embrace reality. You can tell them like, that's a dumb idea and they're like, well, thank you. Because if you rebuke a wise man, they will thank you. If you rebuke a fool, they will hate you. Sometimes you don't even know who somebody is until you correct them. Oh, that's a veteran mom right there, okay. They have empathy and an awareness of how their decisions affect others. They're responsible. They follow through on tasks. They'll apologize and repent. I'm sorry, that was my fault. I was wrong. Let me say this too, that humble people are easy to have a relationship with. I've never seen a full blown knock down, drag out, church split, attorneys called war in the church between the humble and the humble. Humble people just tend to get better gas mileage. Yeah. Oh, I feel the burden lifting. Ha, ha. Ha, ha. Okay. Here's what you give an evil person. Nothing. Here's what you give foolish people, a little and an opportunity for more. Here's what you give wise people a lot. More time, more energy, more money. Some of you, evil people are like, I want more access and more information. No, because you're gonna do evil. You could give a wise person the same access and information and they will do good, okay. So we treat different people differently depending upon how they behave. Wise people live by the spirit. You have a personal relationship with them of Jesus' disciples who was the wisest. John, Thomas denied him, Judas betrayed him. Thomas doubted him, Peter denied him, Judas betrayed him. John, John was there at the foot of the cross. He was on the inner circle of three. John was there with Jesus' mother. Jesus, while being crucified, looks down at John and says, take care of my mom. You don't say that to an evil person unless you have bad mom. Should have said that. You don't say that to a foolish person, right? You don't assign the grieving process of your mother to a fool, only to somebody's wise. Who was the first one to show up at the empty tomb? John, who was the last disciple to die? John, who was the one that they boiled alive, sent him to Padmos and he didn't even blink? John, filled with the spirit of God. Jesus' most faithful follower, most devoted friend and not only, because again, professional, pastoral, personal, John is called the one whom Jesus' personal relationship. How many people did Jesus know? Tens of thousands. How many people did he have as close friends? John and maybe a few more. That's ministry. Let me say this real quick and then my final point. And I don't really mean that, but I want you to pay attention. So, I mean, we all know that's a preacher's secret, right? In conclusion, which means, hey, pay attention. Okay, so one of the wisest people I've ever met some years ago, flourishing family, good business, godly person, started very poor, is uneducated and self-educated. One of the godliest and most successful people I've ever met and I asked him, so how did you go from that to that? He said, I find people that are wise and love the Lord and then I schedule a meeting with them and I show up early and I pray and write down my questions in a journal. I pray when we meet, I thank them for their time, I ask them how much time they have, I set the clock, I honor their time, I ask questions and I shut up and I take notes and if they tell me to do something, I do it. He said, I've been doing that my whole life. That's how I learned to do business, family, marriage, ministry, everything. And he said, when we're done, I tell them, thank you for your time. I will do what you have told me to do, read what you tell me to read, go where you tell me to go. If in the future I have a question, would you be willing to meet with me again? And they always say yes and I don't bother them. Because let me tell you this, what you don't need is a mentor. Let me blow up the mentor myth. The mentor myth is, if I just had one person, they would turn me into the person that God has designed and intended for me to be. And we always go to Paul and Timothy. Oh, if I could just have a Paul. Okay, why does Paul write letters? Because they're not together. And he sent Timothy to do something horrible by himself. Am I making this up? Paul's like, I started a riot. Good luck, Timothy, I'll send you a letter. Right? So if you're thinking, my pastor never meets with me and gives me terrible things to do, you have a biblical relationship. That's what I'm telling you. The Bible says there is wisdom in how many counselors. Many or a multitude. No one person has wisdom in every area. Okay, so you find somebody that's got a good marriage, find somebody that's good with finances, somebody that's good with health, somebody that knows the Bible, somebody that is an awesome parent and you put together your mentors, your wise counselors and you meet with them and then what you won't do is exhaust them. And you'll get the benefit of each person's deposit and investment. How many of you, somebody wants you to mentor them and you're like, I can't give you everything you need. And I can't give you all the time that you're demanding. That's where there's wisdom in a multitude of counselors. Let me close with this. Six kinds of relationships. A wise plus a foolish person equals a parental relationship. The wise person is responsible, the foolish person is irresponsible and so it becomes a parental relationship. How many of you have seen a marriage where the wife is responsible, the husband's irresponsible and he's like one of the kids? Is it just me or have you seen this? I went to a guy's house, there was a chore chart on the fridge, all the kids and the husband. What was interesting, he had no gold stars in his chart. I looked at the wife and I'm like, what's up with the chore chart? She's like, well, he wasn't doing anything and so I treat him like the kids which I'm sure just accelerated their intimacy. I looked at him like, you know you're a grown man. Like, you know, and she literally said, she's like, well, he doesn't get an allowance unless he does his chores. He had a, he's a grown man with a wife and an allowance. I'm like, do you put beer in a sippy cup? Like what? This is the weirdest relationship. Okay. What's with a wise person and evil person, a distant relationship? If you're wise and they're evil, you keep your distance and if they try to get close, no, no, no, I'm not calling you back. I'm not returning your email. No, no, no, we're not meeting, not without a witness. Okay. A foolish and a foolish person, what do you get? Mardi Gras. That's what you get, right? You ever, if you ever wanna know what this looks like, take a flight home from Vegas. On the flight to Vegas or he's like, woohoo! On the way back, they're like, oh, right. Foolishness plus foolishness leads to codependency, drunkenness, debauchery, shenanigans, rebellion, and craziness, okay? Two foolish people. These are like codependent drunks, drug users. They just sort of, they encourage the worst in each other. What about a foolish person and an evil person? This is an abusive relationship because the evil person is high control and covert. The foolish person is naive and manipulated. Okay, how many of you have seen this? Where a bad guy gets a foolish girl? It's an abusive relationship. What happens when you get two evil people? They're like two barrels on a gun. You get a dangerous, dangerous relationship. For some reason, they always work in pairs. I'm in Ais and Alexander. You get to Janus and Jambres against Moses. You get Sambalot and Tobiah against Nehemiah. They're like two barrels on a gun. The way that two evil people come together, they will form an unholy alliance against a common enemy. This is where the Romans and the Jewish leaders came against Jesus. They formed an unholy alliance with a common enemy. How many of you have seen it that in your church or ministry, the evil people find each other? You're like, how did they do that? Here's why. They don't know each other, but their demons do. What happens with two wise people? Healthy, loving, growing relationship. He walks with a wise, grows wise. I love you. Thanks for having fun with me. For everything that I said was offensive and wrong, you're welcome. In addition, I wanna give you permission to pick your friends. I wanna give you permission to only allow wise people close to you and your spouse and your kids. I want you to know that foolish people are always gonna be in your ministry and midst. But I want you to have a pastoral relationship with them that has healthy boundaries and assignments. And I want you to give permission to carefully, with the other leaders on your team, reserve that category of evil for a handful of people who actually deserve it. If we use that term too much, then it means nothing. If we don't use it as at all, then we lose everything. I wanna give you the freedom. I wanna unburden you. There are three ways to make your relational decisions. Condemnation, who gives condemnation? Satan does, because there's now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Some of you, the relationships that you're having, it's because you're under demonic condemnation regarding that relationship, which is why you tolerate it. Don't make your relational decisions out of condemnation. Number two, you can make your relational decisions out of guilt. People will make you feel guilty. People will make you feel guilty. I wanna free you from making any relational decisions out of guilt. And instead, I just want you to make all your relational decisions out of conviction, which comes from God. Guilt comes from Satan, excuse me. Condemnation comes from Satan, guilt comes from people, conviction comes from the Holy Spirit. And people will try and counterfeit the work of the Holy Spirit, which is conviction, by making you feel guilty. How many of you, you've been in ministry and this makes sense to you? I'm not responsible. I shouldn't feel guilty and ashamed. This relationship is not healthy, it needs to shift. They make me feel guilty and I have fear of man issues rather than fear of God issues. And fear of man is something that can only be cast out by fearing the Lord. Holy Spirit, convict me. Do you want me to meet with them? Do you want me to walk with them? Do you want me to talk with them? If you burden me, then I will obey you. Work from conviction, not guilt or condemnation. I want you to have the freedom for your relationships. I want your spouse to have the freedom for their relationships. I want your children to have the freedom for their relationships. How many of you right now, evil and foolish people have access to your kids because you've allowed it? What you're doing is you're breaking the discernment of your child. You don't want to break the discernment of your child. You want to build the discernment of your child. Father, thanks for a relationship with Jesus. If it's true, which it is, that He walks with the wise, grows wise, thank you that we get to walk with Jesus. Jesus, you are wise and you make us wise. Jesus, I had a little fun. Please forgive me, especially for the scale thing. That was not appropriate. Thank you that you died so I could still have a job. And Jesus, I do love these people. And Lord, sometimes the ministry can be so burdensome. It's good to laugh a little. And God, I want them to have healthy relationships and have some energy left for you and their spouse and their kids. And so please give them discernment and wisdom and good people and good ministry and good protection in Jesus' good name. Amen, love you.