 You're not a vegan? No. So how do you feel about eating these animals whilst you know they're sentient and have their own experience? I am very aware. I am contributing to the mass killing of animals. Do you feel bad about that or? Because I know what you wouldn't even be standing talking to me if you didn't have empathy and you didn't care. But I do realise what happens if problems. And then, you know, it's just evil. You still use these weak excuses. You could just say I'm too lazy or I don't care enough. They're probably honest excuses. So what are you going to do when you leave? How are you? It's a week off from work. Yeah mate. How are you? How do you recognise your YouTube channel? So I do watch it. You do? Yeah, you're not a vegan? Well, I grew up vegetarian because I'm a Hindu. Ah, you're a Hindu? Yeah, yeah, yeah. As I took over, I kind of had to kind of eat meat in a sense that, like, I grew up in an environment where meat was already ready, available. I didn't have a lot of common sense and what I could eat and, you know, it was just kind of quick food. They sent it. Well, bro, I ate meat for 26 years. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I do like your work. And oh, you've got a stirring problem with it. That's fine. Oh, that's cool. But I do really get that. So you're watching my videos. What do you think about the message? Like how this happens to animals? We should respect their rights by being vegan. What do you think about that? I think the biggest problem with understanding veganism is that people don't realise that animals are sentient beings. And just killing an animal is just like second nature. Oh, I'm going to kill him. I don't think that these animals have their own emotional touch with humans. So you know this, right? You're not a vegan? No. So how do you feel about eating these animals whilst you know they're sentient and have their own experience? Do you feel bad about that or are you OK with it? I am very aware that I am contributing to the mass killing of animals. Yeah. Like I'm very, very aware of that. I mean, it's been about a good year since I've had meat. At least half of my diet is vegetarian anyway. OK, at least half of the other half is... Yeah, yeah, it's like eggs and everything. So you have paneer and things like this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you live here? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you support the dairy industry here? I don't really support it. I just kind of have it for... Yeah, I mean like as in you create the demand for the industry. You give them your money. That sense, yeah, yeah. I contribute to it. Yeah, that's what I mean. Not like you support it like, yeah, go dairy. So how do you feel about that causing what happens to egg laying hens and dairy cows through the supply and demand chain? I am very aware of what I contribute to in a sense that like, because I've seen the videos where they put eggs on a machine. They grind their babies up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know... They either do that in the UK here, they mainly do gas chamber as well? Yeah, yeah. They gas the birds? My question to you is, if you know it and you're very aware of it, how do you justify continuing that behaviour? When you know you can... You know how to be vegan, yeah? Yeah, yeah. You know you can be vegan and you're Hindu as well? Yeah, yeah. Hinduism has a hymsa? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Non-violence? Yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah, that's right, yeah. That's a philosophy. Yeah. Like unfortunately I'm not very intact with those values and those morals because like I work so much I just have whatever is in front of me and I just have it. I work too, bro. Yeah, I work too. You can use that on me, I work. Exactly, yeah, yeah. Sometimes working 16-hour days, dude. Yeah, we're working right now. Yeah, yeah. I eat vegan every single day of my life, I've done for nearly 10 years. Yeah. No education, I come from gangs and drug use. I still manage to be vegan when I first got out of prison. You can just say I'm too lazy or I don't care enough. They're probably honest excuses. Well, the first option is I'm too lazy. I'm too lazy. So do you think being lazy justifies what happens to animals? Of course not, that's a bigger value. Okay, let's weigh it up. So you're in a shop, there's eggs there up near there. You walk this far, you've got tofu, mock meat, vegan chicken, you've got soy milk, rice milk, oat milk, you've got all these milks, so you've got to walk there when you're in a supermarket. When you're going out for a restaurant, you've just got to go vegan options near me, you go Wagamama's vegan options, Subway vegan options, Burger King vegan options, you press in Happy Cow and you can find vegan restaurants all near you. And nearly every Indian restaurant will have vegan options. How lazy could you possibly be? That slight inconvenience of looking. Yeah, exactly. Just being bothered to search, you know, that's like very lazy. Maybe not motivated. When it's not you being tortured and killed and you don't really have that motivation. You can't really feel that same experience as animals. Tell me about your belief system, because I don't know much about Hinduism. Do you still believe those things that you were taught? So Hindu means is that the flow of life, basically, freedom, like to make your own choices, you know, have your own values and not follow the masses, basically. You're not following the masses? Yeah. OK, I like this one. I'm trying to find little consistent things. And so you have Himsa, which is non-violence? Yeah, it's non-violence. You follow your own way, you're not following the masses? Yeah. OK, they're two good ones I like. Hinduism, karma? Yes, yes. Oh, whatever you do, they'll have the same back in your time. Do you believe in this? I don't believe in karma. OK. But I believe in him. But I believe in him. Ahimsa, non-violence. And you're probably thinking, OK, if you do believe in him, why do you kill animals? Well, why do you buy milk and eggs and stuff? How do you contribute to it? But it does come down to those two factors that you mentioned. If they're too lazy, well, you're very unmotivated. Ahimsa doesn't say be non-violent, except if you're lazy. Of course not. Yeah, of course not. OK, let me say this. There's a gun to your head, right? All I have to do is, like, move my hand over a button and push it to stop someone shooting you in the head. OK. If I said, ah, come here, bothered, mate. See you later. But I knew that I personally knew that all I had to do was touch that button. Say I have to walk an extra 15 meters out of my day, because that's usually how hard it is to be vegan. Yeah. 15 meters, right? And I can just walk over there, push that button, oh, this guy's going to shoot and head you dead forever. And if I said I was too lazy, that's not really consistent with Ahimsa, is it? No, it's not. You're pushing the button to kill them, really? Yeah. Through this supply and demand chain. It's not just killing. It's inherent suffering in eggs and dairy. They take the calves. You know, the thing you know about this industry? Yeah, yeah. Egg industry is one of the worst industries I've ever seen in my life. And I've been in these sheds, and I've seen the murmuring and the suffering and the featherless birds dying on their faces in the sheds in darkness. It's something out of hell. I don't know if you can imagine what it's like in hell. This is like a dungeon filled with birds. And even free range systems are the same. Good-hearted people are going to the store, just disconnected and paying for it. And it could be disconnected, could be another reason, do you think? Because you're not seeing the birds. Yeah, also down to a lack of, like, awareness. A lot of people don't understand until they're there. Like, until they see in real life, they start to realise that, okay, I need to quit my ways because, well, this is what I'm constantly doing. Yeah, I've been in the farms, right? But I quit before I'd been in the farms. But you are aware, see, you know. Maybe the average person doesn't know. You've got more awareness. Do you think you have more culpability, like, responsibility when you know? Do you have more of a duty to act? I have more of a duty to act. I do realise what happens in farms. And then, you know, it's just evil. You know, there's no sympathy, like our own. And it's just wrong. I think people associate having meat with being a man. Being able to pass that message on to them would hurt their ego as well. Yeah, they think, oh, meat is manly. That's conditioning. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't make you more or less of a man with what you put in your mouth. Masculine traits are like protecting the vulnerable, protecting the innocent, not destining them to this, you know. Protecting children, protecting animals. If someone's heading a dog, a physically stronger person steps in to protect direct action. That's vulnerable, yeah. Yeah, they're vulnerable. So, I wouldn't fall into that trap, but Hinduism is about following your own way. Yeah. So, regardless of what other men are doing, what other people think, following your own way and him, so no matter what other people are doing, this is why I'm a vegan. Yeah, it's like that second point you mentioned. It's like you following your own way and you following your own values and you creating your own values. So, like, I think you mentioned that you used to eat meat a lot and everything, right? Yeah, yeah. There was a point in time where you became self-aware about your actions. That's how... Yeah, it's like a transformation. Yeah, that's how Hinduism works, basically. It's like you're self-aware of your own actions now. Now you've changed those values and you created your own morality. And, like, now you're showcasing it like... I'm trying to influence other people. Exactly. You can't create your own values if those values are inherently bad. Yeah, you can't just say, I'm a Hindu. My values are when I kill that person and that person, yeah. Creating your own way with a hymcer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, true, yeah. How do you thought on how the world country is having meat? Do you think this message should be advocated the same way in first-world countries? So third-world countries are more likely to get further with, like, dry food, like rice and vegetables and tofu. The poorer countries usually gravitate towards the grains and the flowers and things like this anyway. You're probably going to find, like, extraneous scenarios where people are in some survival situation or something. Obviously, I'm not over there advocating to them. I'm advocating to people in a situation where they do have a choice. But should animals have rights in those countries? Yes, should animals be protected in those countries? Yes. Because imagine if they were in some kind of situation, they wanted meat and there was no animals but there's any other people. I still think those people should be protected from being eaten. I'm not saying animals and people are the same. I'm saying that animals still deserve rights because they are sentient. But how do you think the rice should be given, given the condition of the third-world country? Meat is a luxury food. So what are the cheapest foods in India? Well, rice, you know, lentils, chicken, you know, chickpeas. So, like, yeah, the cheapest foods are usually not animals. You've got to feed animals, raise animals, contain animals. So I don't think it's the same kind of problem in third-world countries anyway. Because, like, in third-world countries... What are the countries you're talking about? Just from a general point of view. Because it depends. Well, there's different kinds of third-world countries with different access to different kinds of food and summer instavation. If you go to Uganda... I would still apply the same concept that the cheapest foods in those countries and the healthiest foods for the people will be the plant-based foods. And then, unless you're talking about some kind of survival situation where I'm not out there advocating to people in a survival situation, but even in those situations, we should give animals rights and give those people, get those people plant-based food immediately. So it'd be like a humanitarian effort, get coupled with an animal rights effort. But I'm just talking about... There's problems in the world. Oh, yeah, there's a lot. I'm more focused on your personal accountability here. Yeah, yeah. You know, because I can't solve all the problems, you know, like, not me as an activist and not you, there's wars, there's kids being abused... But you're forced to be... Yeah, yeah, I'm a consistent person. So I think animals should have rights to stop us from using exploiting and killing them en masse forever. But we can't even agree animals deserve rights in places where there's a lot of money and there's a lot of resources. We can't even agree here. Because it's a constant debate. What I don't like is if people go... I'm not saying you're doing this, but people do this all the time. What about in a terrible country? And I'm like, well, I'm just talking about us right here where we can. Exactly. And those who can, should. Yeah. Like, morally, should. You know, where there's a personal choice. And especially those who care, who have empathy. Because I know you wouldn't even be standing talking to me if you didn't have empathy and you didn't care. You have empathy. You know this happens to animals. You know they're sentient. You have a hymcer. And you still, like, you still use these... They're almost like weak excuses to do something. Oh, yeah, they're already... Yeah, because there's no other industry that does this kind of thing. Like, that mass exploits and murders and eats... Right, right. ...other than animals for food. I have two to differ. It's a holocaust if happens to human beings, but they didn't eat victims of the holocaust. It's the equivalency of that, yes. Yeah, for animals. Not saying we're equivalent beings, but... But, like, the way they've been... Exactly. Exactly. Like, in the world. Exactly. Yeah. Or even worse. Yeah. They serve the body parts out there in the supermarket. Oh, yeah. I think... They desecrate their remains, they sell the remains, and there's no respect for the remains. Oh, yeah, like... It's like, I remember, there was this, like, like, a video on YouTube, like, an ox being killed. They just shot at the head, and I was like, God. That's when it came to my senses, like, okay, I don't want to have to try ox or anything, or, you know, skin change. I've seen a crazy one in... I think it was India. There was a skin on the ground. Yeah. And another cow came up and started, like, desperately bellowing out. That was their friend that... It was the saddest thing I've ever seen. And that's the biggest problem, because a lot of people don't understand from a bio-psychological point of view that animals don't have emotion. Animals have empathy for each other, too. No, they do. They're like us, mate. They're just not as intelligent. Exactly, yes, you know. And I think what should be pushed out where they're vegan is a little bit more science. Science about animal sentience and that? That is the biggest thing. Yeah, that's it. People realise how... Yeah, good short-term... But that stopped you? Because you know. I mean... It hasn't stopped you, though, has it? That's the reason why half my diet is it's chairing half my... You can do better. I know you can. You're smart, you know, and you have empathy. Yeah, it was a couple of years ago. I was actually vegan, but then I stopped because I was using a lot of weight because it was my kind of diet planning. I'm going to try to struggle not to... I put weight on, bro. I'm big. And I'm strong, and I'm just not silly, man. I don't just eat vegetables or whatever. I eat energy, you know. Tofu, lots of tofu. Tofu's just as good a pinier. No, it is, it is, you know. I don't know if Hinduism believes this, but don't they worship cows? Yeah, we do. Like, is it worship or is it more respect? It's more respect. More respect. We see it as a deity, that's what gives out dairy milk. This is no way to treat, you know. It's no way to respect a deity. I'll hear what you're going to say. I'll kill a cow in India. It's... Yeah, but you know what I do? They don't kill them there, but they export them out. Milk calves are either abandoned on the streets or they are sent for slaughter. Cows who can no longer produce milk are also abandoned on the streets or worse, and most often, they are transported in unbelievably horrible conditions on lorries to states where cow slaughter is legal. They're extremely, extremely. So... I agree, I agree. I was doing a cross before. Yeah. I'm not telling you to kind of change the way you come out things. Okay. But I personally believe the most effective way to make veganism more effective is to push out the side of emotion. Something bad happens to a person, we feel it. Exactly. And the same with pigs and cows and chickens. Yeah, it happens. And if they say something happened to one of their friends, they're going to... Is that going to happen to me? Oh, my God, that's... Yeah. It's a sense to analogy. Yeah. People don't understand. Is that a very analogy? Yeah. That's when people start like, oh, okay, that makes sense to me. Like the moment I realise that, that's when I start to change up things a little bit. Because that's not what I... What kind of monster feel. No, that's not what I'm contributing to. So what are you going to do when you leave? Try to reform my diet. It's really good talking to you, brother. What's your name? Oh, Jay. Jay? Yeah, yeah. It's nice talking to you. You know what you're talking about? No one can force you to do anything. This is all in here. This is you. Yeah. And you have a conscience. You have your own way. You know, and you have a hymcer. And I control myself. So no one can stop me from eating meat right now. Yeah. I do it because I know it's the right thing to do. And I know that they don't deserve that. And I don't want to be the oppressor to them. I do really appreciate the work you do, mate. I just hope they go incredibly well in the future. Thank you, brother. So, yeah. Take care, Jay. Take care. Good talking to you, mate.