 This is the Rex check and call for Wednesday, September 8th, 2021. I just read in late August by Peter camp. We, we just celebrated our 20th wedding anniversary last month in August. Thank you. It was so fun. It is amazing because we're only 27 so I don't understand how any of the time. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, but one of the things that we often do is read our wedding ceremony on our anniversary. We hadn't done it in a couple of a couple years. And so we did that this year. And the one of the poems that we had read at our wedding was to look at two by Robert Frost, which is all about two hikers who come across two deer. And that's, as you're reading this, this is all I can think about are the two does, although it wasn't, it's not to those and in the Robert Frost poem, but then and then I realized that that's largely what I'm having to do these days is think just hold on to the pieces that that occur to me and not listen to any of the crumbling slag parts. Ignore the crumbling slag. Pretty much. And she may has a new family member with the nicest shirt. It's a it's a don't nibble on your stitches. Cat or was a wandering cat that wandered into Janice's sister's backyard, and Janice's sister couldn't take her. And so we drove up to Sacramento and grabbed amazing after after getting your checked out and everything and she has not so far not integrated well with the other cats in the house so she's we still have her in the guest room closed in but that's now because of the surgery you don't want her out or wandering around but you know eventually it'll it'll work. It'll be fine. She's a rare female ginger. That's right. Five one and six. Yeah. And you have two other pictures so she can't have any more either. Right, right. This is the conversation about genetic. I just made that connection. Exactly. And just in terms of vows and poetry. I just, I, you're inspiring me Kelly to read the poem that we that I read at our wedding, which is my, I think probably my favorite poem which I've read, I think on a Rex call many, many moons ago but I'd love to read it again. It's called summons by Robert Francis. The website where it lives has suddenly gotten ads and all kinds of other stuff all over it so I will step lightly over the ads and read summons by Robert Francis. Keep me from going to sleep too soon, or if I go to sleep too soon come wake me up. Come any hour of night come whistling up the road stomp on the porch bang on the door, make me get out of bed and come and let you in and light a light. The northern lights are on and make me look, or tell me the clouds are doing something to the moon they never did before. And show me, see that I see, talk to me till I'm half as wide awake as you and start to dress wondering why I ever went to bed at all. Tell me the walking is superb. Not only tell me, but persuade me, you know I'm not too hard to persuade. Okay. That's a little more upside kind of poem than than the culvert with the with the deer in the in the barcodes and wreckage. And just that, as you mentioned it, the, the metaphor of the barcodes and microchip for the city skyline. This really worked for me. Yeah, yeah. So here's the summons poem at the now busy website. Sabs, like I can't I can hardly read Forbes articles anymore. Because they just have cluttered the site with so much crap trying to make money to publish stuff that you can't wade through it and do anything. It's very. I have ad blocker install you have you block. No, I don't have you block you block is my experience the best use Chrome right. Yes. Yeah, you you block is the one I use. I have ad blocker cross yeah with the standard. No, it's been it's been more obsolete it. Yeah. Kevin, how are you doing. Good. Nice to see you. How's the, how's the situation on the ground in North Carolina. No flooding. Hospitals are not overrun, but they're close south of me in the Charlotte area. And, you know, you might, you know, get given the, you know, both the diversity of terrain here and population. But the further you go out from the metro areas, the worse it is right now. So, and according to my economist, as the temperature drops, it's not going to get better right from that point. Yeah. And rural health care is not great across the US so I imagine the further you get from cities the more desperate, just the care situation that's interesting that, you know, we have a fairly diverse and pretty interesting footprint of universities, state universities here. And as a result, you know, we have in a little bit more infrastructure than you might imagine. Right. That's strategically, you know, poise to help. Not all of it has, you know, medical but a lot of it has nursing. The triangle is one of those health nexus is in the country right. Yeah, I mean, the Durham that hosts Duke University, you know, changed its motto to city of medicine. About 25 years ago. Right. So, you know, lots of money, lots of research going on at both universities. We have alternative vaccine research going on at UNC. Right now, mostly to lower the cost, make it open source and more easily produced in third world. Right. That's the focus of the UNC, you know, and to make and to make the chips a little smaller so they're not so easily detected in the bloodstream right. Yeah, well, you know the fact is it's mostly in the ivermectin. And yeah, that's cool. Thank you. That's what's happening in North Carolina. Right. And we are safe here in our bubble in the woods in Chapel Hill. Oops, sorry, just a question. Ivermectin. How did that start. So, I'll share a post from somebody just recently wrote a great post about our here's here's the ivermectin story I'll tell you what happened. And it's actually really nicely detailed it's basically an anti parasitic agent that was discovered years ago that's on the organization's table of important medicines of standard medicines or whatever it's called is the name for that. And it's used a lot for animals, but then they discovered that it cured river blindness, for example. So for river blindness is caused by flies who lay eggs in your eyes and then the little larvae basically drill in and make you blind. So, Ivermectin began to be used around the world as an inexpensive treatment for that and then a bunch of other stuff. And so, when the pandemic hit people started saying hey let's try that already certified drugs because they don't have to go through any kind of FDA approval, they're globally approved and inexpensive to make. And they discovered that Ivermectin seemed to have good results for people who already had been infected that apparently has I don't think it has any preventative, like anybody taking Ivermectin prophylactically as an idiot. But in some cases like in Peru and a friend of ours a retweeter has been like saying hey Ivermectin is actually seeming to work in third world countries. They're using it because they're desperate they don't have access to other kinds of things and it seems to be statistically significant. But then since then, a couple of the studies that seem to be pro Ivermectin like hey this is working, we're thrown into doubt and now I think it seems to be a wash so I don't, I don't really know. But, but it's become like the modern hydrofluoroquine and whatever that was, we, I mean, Ivermectin's not doing anything hydroxychloroquine is not doing anything. It's the monoclonal antibodies that are getting some street cred. Great. Well, that's what they administered in Trump right away. Yeah, and to Greg Abbott. Yeah, even though we didn't need it. Yeah. So it's in that story Jerry there's a, there's a, there's the people who, the people who knew thought about having using the things they already had. Yes, the drugs they already had and then there's the part about the third world or people who didn't have access, trying something. Are those two stories congruent I mean are they are they the same story or they, they seem like different populations. And that's just, I mean, I think it's the same story happening repeatedly around the world of people of many people having the smart idea of, let's just test everything that's already approved against this thing. And then in some cases in third world countries like hey, in the pantry, we've already got these things distributed what's what's working right so I think I think it's like a distributed multi headed kind of story I don't know that it has one, one hero one protagonist or one place. What are the theories about why it works if there are any. It's a, it's an anti parasitic so currently a blocks of transmission vector of some sort and I'm completely out of my depth at this point, but if you read the thread I just posted in the chat. Yeah, that's the, that's the thread from Lori Garrett, who is actually an acquaintance and who's been really an important reporter. In this whole world, I believe Lori Garrett is Dave Witzel's cousin or something like that. But more than the testing Susan is you need to follow the money because what's happening is the people make this stuff or quietly whispering that oh this is great and it's making their stock prices go up because people are buying it. And at the same time conspiracy theorists are saying, nobody wants to tell you about Evermectin because it's so damn generic. And part of the communication strategy is, you know, you know, this is the forbidden fruit therefore you want it. Right. Right. Yeah. And so it seems, it seems yet again, really hard to step into controlled collaborative experimentation with, you know, humans volunteering. What happened and data and what they're trying and us resolving those questions in a trustworthy way that's that just ain't happening. Botulism, not good, a little bit in your face is okay, you know. So wait, where was this recently. There was a young couple. Oh God, it was some reality TV show or something like that. Oh, has anybody been watching love is blind or is love blind. Are we back to river blindness. No, this is totally, this is totally up the opposite end of the spectrum. Is love blind is a reality TV show a dating show where couples had to meet in pods where they couldn't see each other. And the winners of the show had to propose marriage and actually get married at the end of the show. And the most and like the most famous couple of us have become kind of media celebrities. But one of the other some of some of the other characters who had sort of failed in the show. They just added four episodes and I will true confessions. I watched is love blind early in the pandemic. And then we just watched the four added episodes to the first season. And one of the guys who's just like more of an asshole now than ever. He's like 35 or something using Botox, and April and location like, wait, Botox at what age, and apparently not unusual. I don't digression but but do watch is love blind. It's actually pretty interesting. It actually was really interesting. Just watch it at the outset, as well as a sociological experiment of course and you had a clipboard while you were watching right exactly. So, you know is love dependent you can you fall in love without knowing the other person looks like of course they all look like models. I think I'm going to have to skip this. Yeah, I'll let you I'll let your, you know, summary, you know your executive book summary, you know, stand in for watching the series. You may want to watch instead as a substitute I offered to German seasons about the shari te hospital in Berlin. I think they're both on Netflix, if not they're on prime. But the first one is just called shari te, and it's, it's you know, watching in German with subtitles, but it's about the history and the first one is got co and, you know, the first antibiotics and all that kind of stuff. And then the second season runs into the war and it's called shari te at war, really well acted science is all over the place. And, and then I looked up where my grandparents and their two babies lived in Berlin before they escaped in 39. And they lived about a mile from shari te. So, so really interesting stuff. Anyway, if you want to watch something unusual and fun. What is on what I see I think it's on Netflix I can, I can look it up. I think it's okay. I think it's on Netflix. Yeah. So may you're saying. Oh no, I was actually going to ask you what is it on. But I've remeft in. It's interesting. One thing that's amusing is that the animal dose, the dose that you give to horses for example is much greater than the dose you take for humans and people are taking animal doses and making them crap their pants. Basically, it's all control of their balls. Then, and it turns out that ivermectin is now has a showing significant decrease in sperm motility. Awesome. It's a contraceptive strategy I love this. So yeah it's it's. Well it's a dewormer for you. Yeah. So, yeah it's it's pretty. There's a lot of sudden for it going going around right now. Yeah, yeah, which is actually there's there have you seen there's a subreddit Herman Cain award. Yeah. That's a little controversial now. I read a little bit of it and it was like, Oh, didn't really work for me. It wasn't. What are the, how do you win. What are the criteria. Well you remember Herman Cain was and 10 or 999. 999. Becky Becky Becky Becky Becky sand. After attending a Trump rally, right and completely dismissing covered as an issue. And of course, his, his handlers kept posting under his name on his Twitter account after he died, it's surreal and really bad. But it is Herman Cain award is a reference to people who are loud opponents of vaccines. People who declare that COVID is a hope, etc. dying of COVID. And, okay. Yeah, at a certain level, there's an okay and unfortunately it's turned into something as a basically a platform for people to go after the families of people who died, like posting horrible things on Facebook. You know, in the threads about the person dying it's just, it's supposed to be like an onion kind of thing that it was supposed to be funny. What was the content with a trigger warning I just posted the link to the Herman Cain award subreddit in the chat. Depends on your definition of funny. What I'm saying is, it was meant to be a spoof. When it started to, or was it meant to actually, you know, it was a Q and on kind of, you know, endorsement of, you know, like the ignoble. Okay, or the Darwin award or the Darwin awards. It's a sub category of Darwin awards. Okay, yeah, basically, it is a way to point out the point out the people who were pushed by their own petard. Yeah. They're deselecting themselves from the population. Exactly. Exactly. There's some really funny subreddits this one called I think am I the asshole. Is that right. Which is really funny, like you read stories, and it's people kind of confessing to something they did it was like the asshole here. There's a whole bunch of extremely good subreddits this one didn't actually catch my attention very well by by job is a subreddit that is a bit closer. It's similar in that it's people who make stupid statements and suffer for it. In this case, it's people who are, you know, loudly proclaimed that they are that they'll never get vaccinated to go to their health care workers and then complain that they got fired from their job as a health care worker, that kind of thing. So subreddit has become the new sink for all that happens. By the way, just north of where I am in Richmond, they cut the Confederate general off his pedestal today and cut him in half to haul him off to the warehouse. So that's happening. They could have like shift him over to like the lynching museum or something like that. And, you know, put him on the Hall of Shame. I said, why don't you guys just, you know, pony up for the bigger crane, right and not cut him in half. Right. It's a little symbolic that. Yeah, exactly. Right. Sorry, we could only get the half ton, you know, crane from you haul today, you know, picture of that it seemed pretty complete to me. There's a Romanian town. I mean, their solution to this was we have this area outside of town that's available. Let's set up a park and all these statues that were taken down. Let's put them all there. I think that's a great idea. Sure. I mean, at the end of the day, I have, you know, in a version, you know, whether you like it or not, or, you know, it's source that you think it's an inferior form of art is I don't like to see art destroyed anymore than I like to see the Taliban destroying, you know, you know, earlier century. Well, we don't like these. Okay, so we're going to destroy, you know, some antiquities. Now the fact is, it probably does deserve to have a home someplace. Yeah, just like, you know, Nazi art deserves to have, you know, a place there was a pretty, you know, fecund, you know, period of artwork. Right. It was brutalist. Is it, you know, you don't have to like it, but it's part of art history. I totally put the brutal in brutalist, didn't it? Yeah, you bet they did. So, and I think I'm on the same page as you are. My take is the monuments in public spaces, street named school names, the naming of things around people is generally an honor to the person. I don't like the honoring war criminals, basically, who are or traders or whatever. But, but stat, you know, those things belong in a museum, like this, we have a Holocaust Museum, not because we honor the Holocaust because we don't remember it. That's what I was saying. I was, I was just making, you know, Mark made a really good point, which is that they were trying to find another place. And, you know, I agree with that. Right. There are a lot of people who want to see it destroyed. Right. Yeah, that's not the right reaction either. Here in Canada, the statues of the first prime minister of Canada have been taken down. And we have a statue of Cornwallis that was taken down from local park here in Halifax and of course he offered bounties on skulls of indigenous people. There's plenty of like plenty of nasty history to go around. I was, I think I might have mentioned here, I'm reading the Anarchy, which is a poorly titled but excellent book about the British East India Company, and how the British Raj comes about, which is a slower process than I knew. And really, really interesting. The Mughal Empire was like insanely wealthy, like unbelievably wealthy. They had jewels and gold and like everything going on. And the British are like this little pesky group that just wants to trade with them and they're being spanked and slapped out, you know, away for a while. So the Dutch East India Company gets in there first. There's a whole bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting, but, but the degrees of brutality as a result of the British Raj in India, just just that one chapter is astonishing. Just astonishing. And then as part of that, there's three Anglo Afghan Wars, the British try to, you know, do the Afghan thing three different times way back in the day when the great game is happening. Those fail and the British armies worst loss in the field anyone near Jalalabad is famous because there's a famous painting done by a woman war painter later. And these painters weren't usually at the battle scenes, they were just like painting a rendition of what they thought happened. It's a famous painting of one, one soldier surviving, making his way back to the fort of Jalalabad. And, and you can imagine when the news of that whole basically army being overrun and destroyed by Afghanis got to London, there must have been just havoc, because, you know, sometimes you didn't know that you'd lost a major battle for six months because the news didn't make its way back. So all kinds of interesting little tendrils there but for a little while sort of looking at I watched a video actually let me let me screen cheer to the to that video for a sec because so there's a there was a video on the history of Afghanistan, and I watched it. And chronicle didn't my brain because I like to do that. And here it is. So, you're, you're an Afghani family. You have been under the Timur, which is Tamerlane, the three Anglo Afghani Wars, the Soviet or the American war. Nadir Shah the Parthian Empire Persian Empire Safavid Dynasty Safarid Dynasty Sasanian Empire the Tsar Revolution. Here's the massacre of Elphinstone that's the thing I just mentioned, the Durrani Empire Alexander the Great was there for a while, Ahmad Shah Durrani is part of the Durrani Empire the Achaemenids, the Abbasids, the Ghazna bids the Gurids the Hotaks, like you've been under everybody. You're you're an Afghani. And you really you hardly ever just been like tribes people enjoying Afghanistan in whatever way you might be able to enjoy it is bad. And I don't know how many of these empires were benevolent or good for Afghanistan or anything like that I think it was just you know, they're, they're weirdly geographically located right on the Silk Road, like, like it's desirable territory for anybody trying to conquer stuff and get for me to be Afghanistan, which weirdly because Poland is like flat and in a bad place to Poland is that has not been Poland that often that long Estonia even less, because very desirable but flat, you would think Afghanistan being all mountains would be like Switzerland which is like hey, we got natural defenses here so we just sort of wall off the passes when we need to. But it's not I think I think it concludes you can reaches that it is but nobody has has actually learned that lesson. It's like it's like it's like the scorpion trap nobody knows to avoid. Right. I was reading it some interesting detail about July 3 1979 is bigger Brazilian ski had a meeting with Jimmy Carter, and said, you know this. There this secular kind of left leaning Russian leaning governments. You know, you know women could walk around and, in fact, the vice presidents of Afghanistan was a woman. And, but he said, do these groups the Mujahideen they're opposing this secularization. Let's support them and that'll suck the Russians in the rest is history. Basically, but it's kind of ironic that Americans basically destroyed the status of women and then announces all this talk about oh we're leaving and what about the women. Thank God you're leaving. Sorry, it's all this this whole little thread started with the, the nastiness in history, like why humans are so so crappy to each other so often so consistently over time. Well, just the president's feelings. So you say that Mark because I actually wrote my history thesis on revolutionary movements in Afghanistan over the 20th century. I didn't know that. But that was back in back in a C graduated that would have been 8788 so is your link anywhere online and then like a dissertation. Unfortunately, I have a print out of it, but you know it's lost to the vagaries of unsupported digital media. I could add it to my brain if they're handling. But I might might end up doing that. But the actually, what I was going to say is that to whatever degree the American support under Carter and Brzezinski made it made a difference for them for the mosaic in 1979. That was an ongoing cycle there. That was like the third or fourth tribal tribal groups overthrowing centralized government in Afghanistan in the 20th century. That's a recurring story. And in this case, the centralized government had had friends in the Soviet Union and called in for help and, you know, President at the time said hey, look, it's simply located we can get anywhere from there. And all you need to do is shift over a country or two and lather rinse repeat so the Shah of Iran was put in by the US after we depose Mossadegh, who was a democratically elected president of Iran who was actually a smart and good guy. And just a little too close to the Soviets for us so we took him down and put in our man and completely screwed up the region. Again, we could have shut down Guantanamo and just moved at the bottom. Yeah. There you go. Right. If you don't think we have other black sites, okay to move people, we're using them right now. Right, the people who don't have the credentials, right, are quietly being escorted from Qatar and other places that landed to, you know, the where did they go to other places. Yeah. Yeah, and then there's now a whole bunch of Afghan rebel, not rebels, refugees in the world who in a world that's much less accepting it wasn't very accepting a little while ago but now it's just worse it's going to be a real headache, I think. And a political issue in lots of places. Sorry, Mark you're starting to say something. Oh no just mentioning places like Diego Garcia's this island, you know, off of India, where the UK I believe evacuated the citizens and move them off somewhere they've been suing to get their island back their descendants they got shipped off to Sri Lanka or somewhere I don't remember where. So where's a great, where's your favorite anyone's favorite place in history where things were good people place. Anytime in history. Anytime history. Anytime in history. People place Susan you're muted. How cold, how small can the place be. It could be eight people at this point because nobody's coming up with ideas so I'm good. I'm good for, I'm good for small. Yeah, how about, you know, for me, you know, Kansas City 1960. Casey now so you're talking about like personally what it was actually Lee would Kansas that that was a great place, you know, I was about, I was four years old. I was four to six, right that that was that was a wonderland. Was it kind of sort of ideal like rural America, sort of wonderland is that the picture you. I don't know it was it was a new subdivision. And it just was, it was a good place was worth I know I was I was hauled off a lot of times to the emergency ward because I kept on cutting myself on things because I was rambunctious. So, you know, I was, I had my frequent, you know, stitches, you know, card at the hospital but yeah, you know, I remember Malcolm Gladwell in the intro to one of his books writes about how they used to live in Long Island, and then one day his dad got a promotion so they moved to Westchester or something like that. And all of a sudden, like the weekend block party barbecue died, because where they lived in Long Island, they're they're living a cul-de-sac it was cheap it was like nobody was wealthy. But every weekend, somebody would come feed the put charcoal, you know, put Kingsford briquettes in the brazier, and the dad's the dad's the neighborhood would bring like like the meats and the hot dogs out and all the kids would play together. And Shaboom and then when they moved everybody had their own barbecue out on the porch and nobody was using them or inviting anybody else over. And so this just these varied notions of community and connectedness as they correlate to poverty and wealth and all in cocooning and whatnot it's super interesting. I would put forward. North Newton Kansas. North Newton. And this yeah, you know, for where I spent a lot of time. And of course, and it was a largely men and I community fact I put some men and I communities. You know, there and I, and I say some because, well, some of them weren't wonderful, the one and I have two guys building building a shower and a toilet in my, in my attic and at the moment and one of them is a descendant of the Aztecs. And when they found out I was men and I they had all kinds of questions because he and his partner, we're looking for a place to move. And he said, he said, and he had thought about going and joining the men and I, of course, he knows about the men and I to the Mexico. But you know those are those are there are lots of those communities where everybody gets taken care of. Yeah, totally. In a lot of religious communities they look outside of the secular world and like, who are these assholes who can't take care of their people. So, oh, I know. Like it. I miss what Mark did I was like Mark put in chases we're not in Kansas anymore. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, and your little and your little dog toto to. I am a twister. I'm talking about my home. Yeah, I know I mean the fact is that that's where my birth certificate is from Kansas City, Missouri hospital. Right. But I didn't get to stay in Kansas City. I had they I was adopted so they took me to Tulsa. I got moved got you know by IBM from Tulsa to Kansas City so they moved back. And then I, you know, I was Tulsa. How was Tulsa. I mean the families from North Central Oklahoma and tornado alley in Perry, which is near OSU, or what was Oklahoma and M. Yeah, so the, you know, my father grew up in a small town east of Tulsa. Well, he grew up in the country there. It was it was farming country. So, I have Tulsa in my background. I was kind of following the, you know, after Kansas City the path for a couple of years or several years of of school, you know, issues, we moved from Kansas City to Memphis, and there were race riots, and my parents put me into a Methodist church school. And when I moved to Chicago, we were in a development I could see the elementary school is supposed to go to in my backyard, but they started doing busing. So I couldn't go to that school. Yeah, I had to walk past that school and go to another school in Highland Park. And remember I just told you I was in a Methodist private school. This is a public school, but 80% of the students that went to that school were Jewish. And the contrast effect was very interesting. And it just broadened me out a lot before I moved to Connecticut. And, you know, so I, those were kind of gifts, in a way. Because, you know, I was getting a lot of different experiences in a very compressed period of time when I was growing up. I wonder if there must be writing, Jerry, about about the sort of what you just described as a kind of more cosmopolitan life, because your father your parents moved around a lot. And you know what, my dad and his sister. And this I am going to write about. He grew up on a train. His grandfather was the track foreman for the Santa Fe Railroad building a second line between Texas and Chicago. Yeah. And as they built track out in the prairie every two or three weeks they changed schools. One room school house to the next room school house right in Oklahoma, Kansas, Illinois, right. And the fact is that, you know, the, there was a, you know, car, a freight car that was converted into the track foreman's apartment. Right. And that's what they grew up in. That is amazing. And so they, we didn't think twice about moving. He said, Oh, you know, no problem to go, you know, yeah. Anyway, we're going to we're going to hook up to an engine be somewhere in, you know, in a couple of hours. So there's a thing called third culture kids, which I realized later I kind of was, which is interesting of its own. And, you know, the idea that you don't really have roots in any one place but you've got lots of little roots and lots of different places and so forth and so on. And then back to recommending TV series, I stumbled across a rotoscope animation series called undone. I put a link to the Wikipedia page in the chat. It was really, really good. And there was only one season of it and it's kind of a cliffhanger because they don't resolve the plot. I don't know that they funded us or approved a second or third season. But it was basically, it involves time travel and losing your mind and stuff like that in animation. And the roto and rotoscoping is basically they use actors and act things out and then they process that whole thing so it looks like animation. But what that gives you is a really rich visual medium where you can suddenly blend into, you know, fantasy or psychosis or whatever else and they use it very, very well. It's like really like the it's very artfully done. I liked it a lot. It's actually like reminds me of the, in the school that I taught in the Congo, then Zaire briefly, where it was allowed for people to go crazy when the dry season started. So if you were trying to go crazy, you could. Wow, there was like an opening for it. Hey, it's crazy. It's really yeah and we had a woman who almost naked showed up in the yard and I asked the gardener what that was all about and that's what he told me. We have that here it's called election season. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Well, there are also festivals and many cultures have festivals like, you know, the throwing oranges in whatever that town of Belgium is route. No, I'll think of it. Yeah, everybody gets to go throw oranges once a year I mean it's it's it's a good thing. Great thank you for straightening me out on rotoscoping because I really thought that was an early form of oral surgery. So, separate thing but this came up yesterday in a conversation here. Animal tracking. I watched a video about a guy named john young who's an animal tracker who studied under Tom Brown who's the famous one of the famous ones who also was a mentor of Kevin Jones is by the by. And so this in this video, because because I was in a conversation here about how did early people hunter gatherers track animals and likely they do a grid and say you take that part you take that part no they must have done something else. Well it turns out that in this video in modern times, they were they had apprentice themselves to the Hadza and other tribes and so forth. You kind of become one with the animal and the theme part of the theme of this video which I'll link to is about cross species communication. And what happens is when like you find a place where your prey kind of seems to have laid down on the path, and you sit there, and you kind of go into a neutral and put yourself in the mind in the frame of mind of that antelope. And all of a sudden you see sort of a silver path ahead of you, and you just follow the silver path, and you don't have to worry about broken twigs and scat and footprints. I thought that's all the tracking was was like evidence physical evidence in the world of where the critter was. And there's this whole other aspect and angle to it which is about stepping through and being one with the animal, and sort of following the little thread that that leads you to it. And it's kind of mind blowing. I just finished lonesome dove which I had never read. And nor have I. And it's 850 pages, and it's extremely male and so I thought am I really going to do this and I'm glad I did. And, and anyway so they they had learned a lot from the Indians about how to the cowboys about how to track animals. And it's not exactly your point but the point was you have to, they didn't use the word become the animal but basically it was like that. And they would track them for days weeks. By the way, the word vaquero. So a lot of the original cowboys were black and Mexican, right the original cowboys. The word vaquero is cowboy in in Spanish buckaroo is an Americanization of vaquero. Really. Yes. Wow. I didn't know that and yes and in the story there is a black cowboy. The black cowboys group down in LA, right? Yeah. I want to bring up a question here. Go to go back to Jerry's question on, you know, when was a really good time in history. Thank you please. And part of part of what we're telling stories about about when we got started on the good things was. You know what was going on. It's always been going on that way. It's always been horrible. And there's always been care. There's a piece I have to find the link for it which I will put in in a short bit and sort of chastising the media about, you know, telling the whole story about covert and nothing about all the people who took care of everybody. I mean that's finally getting into the mainstream press which I thought was great. It's a commentary. And it's so often I had a neighbor here who came over to never mind why they come over we had a bottle of wine we talked. And she was asking she's an artist had studied in India and in Japan and does beautiful beautiful textiles. Anyway, she said I'm so tired of only bad news. What I said there's a lot of good things happening. And she asked me well where are they. How can I read about them where can I talk about them why aren't they, of course they follow mainstream media, pretty much. And so I and watch TV, and I am. I have sent her two links one was to know Emma, because I thought maybe those short blurbs that they right there which I enjoy and read every week. Would be about bite size the right bite size for good stories. We'll see what happens. The second thing was this article that I can't quite remember but talked about why we don't know about all the good things. Mm hmm. I think that the good things are in the longer form narratives. They're not in the short burst stuff. But they need to be. I mean I think if people are going to read short burst stuff then maybe we need to do that. Well I'm just saying that they've tried good news, new services. If you don't want to pay attention to them. I know. I mean, we know that people don't actually, they'd rather have something exciting, you know, titillating something, if it bleeds it leads kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. My, my own amateur history version of this is that early peoples managed landscapes, they didn't have individual plots of land, but I'll just do a little range here because I've got a bunch of stuff on this. Aborigines domesticated the landscape not individual species, much of the American land mass North and South America was under active human management. If you read Charles man's books 1491 and 1493. Here's 1491 the new revelations of the Americas before Columbus. He will and then and then if you go over to satellite archaeology and people doing core samples in the middle of the Brazilian Amazon forest. They're what they're discovering is some place where it looks like nobody's ever lived at a junction of a couple rivers. There's a mound curious mountain so you take a couple core samples of the mound and what you find inside the mound is broken pottery. And broken pottery and ash, and what there's a thing called terror for it prepared earth which makes earth very fertile. And part of what you do is you put the human wastes like fish bones and or you know your compost. Some some ash some burn and some pottery and you mix that into the soil and it makes the soil really fertile. So they do core samples around and they do an estimate. It's like somebody in the middle of what is now jungle made 100,000 clay pots and then disappeared. Right. And so anyway so my amateur version of history is that around the world, we knew how to live on the land, but we weren't making big ziggurats. We weren't making penis monuments. We weren't like like we were we figured out if we didn't kill ourselves off which are humans are really good at, we were living together well on the land until we were destroyed basically in the colonial era and some you know some earlier efforts but but but those those efforts to come to cultures of guns, germs and seal right so that the Alfred Crosby thesis, and then other sort of ideas of, hey, if you're pacifist and you're sort of elegantly living on the land, it's going to go down. And so when the first fleet shows up in Australia, and you read those people's diaries, they're like they're like they ride their horses into the to the forest they're like, this is like a gentleman's apartment. You reach up and there's an apple you look down and there's a gourd, and they don't realize that that's because the aborigines were cultivating the space that way. And they attributed to just as just the way nature is that these aborigines look lazy and stupid and of course they treat them that way forever. And then, then the Europeans bring sheep and let the loot the sheep loose on the land and the sheep basically destroy the manicured landscape. The sheep eat all the good stuff that's been left out for humans to feed off of. It's super super interesting. Anyway, so I think that there's been lots of like idyllic not idyllic, lots of groovy civilizations that understood how to do many of which were matrilineal, like the Haudenosaunee in the American northeast matrilineal all the way down. This gate management template is simply been replaced by strip malls and franchise places I mean that the, the food that's on the floor is simply, you know the availability of a burger king or Taco Bell, you know, but also the notion of stewardship shifted into the notion of ownership. And then we made ownership preeminent like, like libertarians are all about ownership. And the only reason for a government is to protect my ownership of stuff. And so for me ownership is not the best word anymore. I think stewardship of the Commons is a great phrase. But how do you how do you shift people out of something so buried so deep. These notions are very incredibly deep in the birth story of America, the whole thing. You know, you might be able to usefully, you know, make that full circle. If you said, you know that the American Indian was actually libertarian, except that the space that was owned was a shared space. We all own it. Okay, we are all part of it. Okay. Yeah, which brings me to a tiny video I'll share that I did years ago. You might have heard me say this, because I'm sure I brought it into one of our calls about the difference between the words ecology and economy. So they both, they both come from the Greek root Oikos, which is the household. They both seem to mean management of the household. And in the video I say the different and but they're both in conflict in our heads like ecology and economy can't somehow cooperate. So for me, the difference is that economy people think that the household is me and my nuclear household in a zero sum game for resources against everybody else. And ecologists think it's all of us on the pale blue dot, making this thing survive so the future generations can enjoy it. And it's the size of the household, the metaphoric size of the household that is the biggest difference under the hood. And the fact is that if you take that the word shareholder and stakeholder disappear. If shareholding means that we've all got shares in, you know, we're all sharing, you know, all the resources, you know, if shareholder does not become a single entity, right that it becomes part of an interconnected. But, you know, the fact is, right now, as you've heard me, you know, say before, large swaths of the planet are fixated in adolescence and never graduate interdependence that they just, you know, fixate on independent and, you know, the smaller the planet. And, you know, that means that on a societal level, we don't always get to a fully formed prefrontal cortex at a group level. But so how does that. Can we resolve that with the idea that long ago, before we screwed things up we were actually more adult or intelligent. Because because when you say that we're stuck in an adolescent level, the place I go to is like well that means that long that time we were children, and we're trying to become adults and integral or whatever. But, but my, my span was very short. It was not. Yeah, but the fact is that that's true. That's true. One of the things that a lot of resources on is, you know, conflict resolution, and one of the mechanisms is war. That's when lose. Right. That that's an adolescent strategy. Okay. Because there are, you don't get to any win-win thinking until you grow up a little bit. Go ahead. I guess the question is, how do we, I mean, there are some radical possibilities here, right. And, but they're too radical to do so we might as well just keep our heads in the sand. It's okay so what about another kind of attitude. I think. Mark, say it. What do you think. Well, for example, right now it's becoming more and more common here in Nova Scotia, the province where I live to say, we are on the unseeded territory of the mnemaki. So this is unseeded territory there was never a legal transfer of quote unquote ownership. So it seems to me that we need these kind of radical judo moves to try to somehow flip things so that we don't just talk about this but we actually make it real. This is one thing I'm really intrigued about and I think there are, I mean, there are some parts in the US as well where that's also true. There is unseeded territory. And you can say, well, so what big deal, you know, go back to your little levels. But I think, you know, maybe there are leverage points potentially. And I think we need absolutely radical leverage points. But I'm, you know, I'm usually a positive person getting more and more depressed. No, come back from the, I mean, I read your article, you know, at least where you were quoted, and you know saying well these conventional measures, you know, won't do. So how do we go beyond the conventional measures. Honestly, I wish I knew, you know, if I knew I would be master of the world. No, I mean, unfortunately, historically, the mechanism by which we adopt radical measures have been well in the words of the recent conversation fairly adolescent. We tend to adopt radical measures through violence mostly. Or crisis, or I'm sorry. Crisis. I mean, it doesn't. Yeah, suffering. Yeah, suffering suffering. And for me that that weaves back to some of the conversation. You know, actually some conversation across this this morning. In the in the idyllic spaces in the good, the good point, good times, good locations in a world of adults. Who is suffering. When you talk about, and I please don't take this in any way as being disparaging towards me towards any of you personally, we can talk about Kansas in the 1960s. I'm thinking well what is it like for the black people are living there. Yeah, I was, you just, I'm not being defensive but it was just a reference to my experience. I didn't even know that there were black people in Kansas. I found out in Memphis really fast how you know contrast effect. But you know the point is, you know who is suffering so when I think about, you know, a, you know, a world where people are less focused on the individual like okay that's great if you're part of them if you're part of the mainstream. Parts of your yourself that don't fit into mainstream views. If you're gay in a lot of places around the world, and a lot of places historically. What does that mean, if you're stepping outside the North, if you have decided not to reproduce. But there are there historically a lot of places in the world where that was almost as bad as being a deviant, that you were deviant basically if you weren't having kids. And so, so I think about these things I asked well who's suffering. But, you know, in, in reference to what Mark was asking about it's like, maybe suffering becomes necessary suffering becomes a catalyst. But in the scenarios I'm talking about about the way back when indigenous tribes everywhere. Some people were suffering who were probably ostracized by their communities but probably because they were bad actors in their communities, etc. I'm not, and I have a general thesis that capitalism only pencils out when somebody is being squeezed and suffers, but that's capitalism, and I'm talking about sort of pre capitalistic societies where I'm not sure somebody needed to be suffering. I mean, Joe, you and I have this conversation numerous times in the past. I feel like you have a, an overly utopian vision of what pre capital societies were like, I think you, and I suspect you believe I have an overly cynical view. But I'd love to know where we all land on the spectrum. Yeah. So why don't everybody put your, put your actually so hold up hold up one to five fingers. One is like pretty, pretty sort of negative. Most of humanity has been nasty British and short, etc. Five is like pretty optimistic. Things would are. And Susan is holding up the correct one finger expression so so go ahead everybody. Yeah. One, two, three, you're like right in the middle mark. The. I mean, if I, if I take the longest view that I can for humanity. I'm going to have to agree with Elon Musk. And I'm going to need to become an exobiological species, because the sun doesn't last forever. Eventually, you know, this becomes uninhabitable. So it's, you know, we have to spend a little bit of our time. Right. Trying to figure that out. Right. Do we have to do it immediately. Right. He pumped guys here. You know, it's kind of like, you know, a savings account. We do spend a little bit of our attention on a surviving in the moment, whatever that means, and then we need to, you know, be able to have escape velocity. All right, so that we can be elsewhere. Yeah. That's my that's the law. That's as far as I can go. In terms of perspective. And, you know, I do spend a little time trying to think about that. I actually have something I've been doing recently writing a piece for IFTF on a concept I've been picking up for I call it foresight forensics. You basically go back to foresight, foresight forensics. Okay. Okay, basically going back and looking at old scenarios, old forecasts and digging through was like, okay, what worked what didn't why, you know, what did I miss that should have caught. You know, what are the things that you basically trying to unravel how the world of the future presented in old forecast mapped against the real world, not as a I got this right I got this wrong but why, why was I thinking that what did I what did I miss what dynamic factor that I missed you could be a scenario archeologist to pretty much. And one thing. Well, I tend to call force features on my anticipatory history. Yeah. And so it's not very seldom. Exactly. Yeah, psycho history. And the foundation series coming up on Apple TV looks really good. Yeah, but what the point of all this is that I have discovered that I am a, I am painfully optimistic. What, because yes, if you go back and look at the scenarios in these forecast invariably. I have at least one of the forecasts want me one aspect of the forecast one of the scenarios being people get their shit together. You have global cooperation around climate that you have people making making the hard choices that need to be made in a way that's beneficial towards future generations not towards the immediate benefit. And I keep keep going back to that even you know when it's. I say well there's a good scenario best or no I'm talking about like where it's just near forecast of what should the world what, what are the factors are shaping the world. And they just keep coming back to having these, even though reality keeps stopping you in the face. I know, I know reality is keep coming back for more. So, this conversation and just, I will actually am a lot apparently. I am a lot more optimistic than I like to portray myself as being interesting so come to the lighter side, come to the optimistic side. Why, because it's more hopeful it's more fun to wake up in one. And be and be bitch slept by reality. Well the statistically the percentage of humanity that is in conflict has been decreasing. Yes, there's a whole bunch of the fact is that the, that the general trend, although it's hard to perceive it right is that we're, we're actually less in conflict, right and consuming few of our resources. than we used to. So this is where this is where I come on brain don't be so slow. This is where I collect all that evidence and all those stories and all those books. So it's Hans Rosling it's Steven Pinker it's the, the new optimist is kind of a category for it. So there's a bunch of thinkers these days, like, Johann Norberg, Max Rosa Steven Pinker, and a few others who are on this point of this particular which I personally don't buy enough I'm like, if things are so much better than a wire thing so screwed up so that to the point where several of the things we've done might actually end most life on earth. Because I think there's things are better at the granular level and much worse of the systemic. Yeah. Yeah, we've got we've got a really better at. Making the live well, but not very good at making the planet distributed better. We still don't mean, you know, we still educate people, you know, the people who are higher, you know, have the highest education are drilling down very deeply into very narrow silos. Okay, there's no specialization and generalization. Right. That we don't offer that degree. And so the fact is we need to where you see some evidence of progress in that direction is nanotechnology. It requires cross disciplinary cooperation to move it forward, you know, it requires physics and chemistry and engineering and and and so the fact is, we need to be able to go back to the zero hundreds in the library, where, you know, we say this is the organization of human knowledge, right, and not produce a librarian produce a general assistance, you know, set of systems thinkers. Be able to employ them. Wait, isn't there another, there isn't there another way to think about this. I mean, there always is, but I got fascinated a few years ago when I was trying to invent a company with consideration of the literal I L it or R a L. And I think we need to cultivate the literal. I think we need to be able to go see those places as just as legitimate as because that's where the interaction between the systems and the local systems happens. And we generally leave that. Okay, so take, take the shoreline. Okay. And, and like a marsh, right, a salt marsh, right, or a salt marsh for instance, between the salt marsh and the ocean and you know, lots of stuff happens there. Most evolution evolution happens. That's definitely your most aggressive loser. Yeah. So cultivating the literal, I think is a, or literal is is something I mean, maybe that's what I should do right about. So one of the metaphors I use to describe open global mind is estuaries I don't use literal zone so much but estuary same sort of thing. It's the meaning of fresh and salt water, they're rich in nutrients and evolution. And all kinds of symbiotic relationships all kinds of goodies going on the only, the only complicating factors that those are also the places where humans like to build cities. So most estuaries have been paved over and kind of overrun by humans and their pollution and whatever else but where you can find them they're they're super productive great zones. So why, why did we, why did we colonize those. That's because that's you get traffic. The river was the original highway. Yes. And your civilization like look at the aisle in Egypt, right your civilization will follow the river which flooded the fields which blah, blah, blah. So we kind of and or the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers, which basically border Mesopotamia until we screw up that region. The estuary that is just out. The estuary just outside of New Orleans as you go into, you know, the Gulf of Mexico is a is a very interesting place. And it's becoming more interesting because, you know, as sea level rises, you know, there are entire roads and these are disappearing. Right, but there's more stuff being deposited. So at the same time it's being destroyed it's building itself. It's being silted up even as the water level. Exactly. Mark, what are you gonna say. So, like, someone was explaining about the contrast between northern and southern Europe, like northern Europe tends to be flat, lots of rivers, easy transport, southern Europe, lots of mountains. People work harder in southern Europe against the cliche like in Greece, they work longer hours than in Germany but they're much less prosperous. North America. I mean the Mississippi Missouri river complex is like just amazing and for prosperity. Early roads and transportation. Yeah, yeah, early roads, stuff got moved around that we built canals and, you know, bridge the gaps and all that kind of stuff. Super interesting. It really lasted a little while because then we get railroads. Okay, but I think, yes, I think, cultivating the literal can be extended to land mass as well. So, for instance, here's an example. The Chanterelle here grow where the oak, the oak meets the grassland. So there's a book called the mushroom at the end of the world. Oh yes. There's a book about the matzotaki mushroom and a little TLDR on it. It's super interesting. It's kind of a meditation on capitalism and everything else. And the matzotaki. So, and I'm going to probably mess some of this up but the Pacific Northwest where I'm sitting right now. I think used to be mostly ponderosa pines, massive ponderosa, which got logged out. They don't come back easily. So what comes back in their place is lodgepole pine and fur. Yeah, so a lot of what shows up here is lodgepole pine and fur. Who loves 10 year old mature lodgepole pines, matzotaki mushrooms, you will find them at the base of a 10 year old lodgepole pine. So one of the ahas from her book, the mushroom at the end of the world is that the matzotaki loves disrupted landscapes. Yes. Right. It's part of what you're just saying Susan about chanterelles. And that's like really interesting. And so another piece of her book is about how at the time when Japan is running out of matzotaki because they mostly poured concrete over everything in the country. A whole bunch of people who got squeezed out of Southeast Asia at the end of the Vietnam War end up in the Pacific Northwest looking for work. They know how to live in the forest. They know how to forage for food and they prize the matzotaki as because they know mushrooms are valuable. So they become the foragers and create a new sub economy in the Pacific Northwest. Then there's a whole crew of middlemen who grew up, who buy them wholesale from the foragers and then sell them off to restaurants markets, whatever. But but but her book is all about these sort of cooperating layers economically, socially, culturally, physically. And I haven't finished the book is super interesting. So when Susan talking about cultivating, I always pronounced it literal, but cultivating the literal. I always think of Denise Ruzos doesn't talk about hybrid vigor. And also thinking about interzones is basically the the collision of disparate dynamics seems to me to be a extremely rich location. That's what that's what made cities so powerful. Because they really, you had the chance to actually get a mix of a mix of ideas and cultures, nutrients, ideas, ages, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And also isn't it. Never mind, go ahead. Go ahead. It's diversity density. Yeah, yeah, but I think it's also the case where if we go into cultivated and we, you know, cultivating it for my sake, we might make the mistake of planting all ponderosa pine. Right. So I think I think there needs to be to go to go back to the cultivating the landscape, right. So, I'll add in and I think Susan I think this fits into your literal zones in a metaphoric way that's interesting. But Dave Gray wrote this book liminal thinking and he was busy sort of drawing these in public with us sharing his drawings for really nicely. And about how beliefs come into being and about how we change our minds and all that kind of stuff. He had the nine practices of liminal thinking the six principles of liminal thinking. I forgot. Pardon. This is again. Dave Gray if you look I'm screen sharing right now. I'm screen screen sharing Dave Gray in my brain. Yeah. And so here's the six principles of liminal thinking, which is under enumerated wisdom one of my favorite thoughts beliefs are models beliefs are created beliefs create a shared world beliefs create blind spots beliefs defend themselves beliefs are tied to identity and then there's nine practices and all the block, but I think that the literal zones metaphorically are these spaces for investigation these spaces of a rich mixing of ideas and peoples and cultures, and a piece of what might help move us all forward is creating safe respectful places where we can do that mixing from each other like we're not doing enough of that we're busy cocooning and busy sheltering in place as as separate tribes and cultures, because we're all under assault by 15 different crises outside in the world including secular liberal crazy people trying to, you know, take over our children's lives. So, so how do we, how do we cause. How do we cause there to be some comfortable literal zones for conversation and co thinking and co making. And sometimes the easy entry to that is actually food and music. Because those are non controversial subjects and who doesn't love the Korean taco it's like wait how did it. How did bulgogi find its way into a taco. Oh, Los Angeles. You know, Los Angeles is a literal zone Los Los Angeles apparently has the largest expat populations of at least 20 different cultures in the world. So if you want to find the largest population of mung outside of Laos, you go to Los Angeles. Go to Fresno. Lather rinse repeat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like when you were asking like, give examples of some, you know, ideal culture society. The first thing that flashed my mind was the time I spent in Berkeley in kind of late 60s early 70s, because as you were saying, the influence of all kinds of cultures, all kinds of, you know, all kinds of different levels. You know, you name it, technology, art, music, you know, and that mixture. And the interesting thing and this is to Jimmy's point about going from the granular to the systemic that you could like I find lots of granular set sanity, in people, in individuals, I say, wow, life is really expressing itself. And this is, this is really gives me optimism. But then how does that become institutionalized, you know, and part of the system because the system is enormous inertia. So maybe one of the ways is these kind of littoral zones, where there's a lot of mixing, and you know, lots of you know, it's like a protein soup as they used to say. I think the thing is, the thing is there has to be room for, so Jaume, I know you will have thought of this. There needs to be room for expertise to grow. Right. And specialization. And I mean think about, yeah, just that point. And, and so what's happened is when I looked at China and what China was doing, and they made all cities and I thought no that's a mistake. You're going to lose everything that was any good in in villages and you're going to lose those, those abilities right, many of which are very human. And also in their cities like in Beijing they got rid of the who tongs they basically squished out all of the organic organic villagey parts of Beijing. And they're doing the same thing with the shows in and replaced it with stacks of high rises which are not that livable or replicating the place on the planet. You know, there's, there's a Paris in China. There's a Stockholm in China. Right. There's, you know, they, so they have, you know, built replicas of other places, you know, to try to import culture that they have their own. Yeah, the internet which is the sort of the question did they ask themselves, you know, so you could do the very first high rises look the very a lot like the spec buildings that were in the CAD CAM programs that they bought. So the conventional wisdom that I had heard, which I've never been able to fact check is that there are many buildings in China that are exactly the default drawing in AutoCAD. Yeah, that's right. Exactly right Jerry, that's what they were like that looks okay let's just build that one yeah this is a good this is a good building let's use that. Let's just make that let's just go. I'm going to leave because I need to go get ready for something else on this topic. I visited an organization called ICRASAT, which is the International Crop Research Institute for the Seminary Tropics, right. Didn't know anything about it but a friend of mine was the assistant to the Secretary General this place right it's outside of Hyderabad, India. What they specialized it you know that seed bank that they've got up near the, you know, North Pole. Underground and slotted, which is just stupid. So ICRASAT has all the seeds that grow in the most inhospitable places in the planet. You know, very little rain, crappy soil, right. And so they're showing me all all the things that they do. And, you know, I don't know, know much but I said, you know it seems to me that the hero here is Millet of all the things that you showed me. Right. You know Millet, you know, seems to be, you know, low, you know consumption of the resources. It gets it's pretty traditional value. In the United States it's bird seed. Okay, but in India it's roti bread. Okay, and I said, sounds to me like it's going to be a super food. It didn't come from China though. I mean, I don't know where it came from. There certainly was a huge culture. But what's cool about that is after making that pronouncement, I don't know, seven years ago. I got a note from Joanna, you know, Pataka. And she said, we have adopted Millet as our, you know, hero grain for the next decade. I said, right. So the guy who knows nothing. Right. I don't think that they took my, my recommendation that there was an insight for them. And they just kept going. And this is what they're hanging their hand on. And I would love to buy some bread that's based on roti as opposed to wheat. Right, because it's, it's, it's perfectly good way to make food. In fact, there's a thing called phonia that I just learned about a couple of weeks ago, which is a kind of millet that's becoming kind of a popular food and becoming more available in stores. And one of my little goals is one of my little goals is next time I'm in a more or less natural food store around here to look for some phonia like try it. You know, it's this also like the one of the things that grows well, and we have adapted over the years is all of the brassicas. They grow over the place and they have spread, and they grow in multitude of environments. Now, yeah, so those are. So, okay, it's, it's, you know, millet and brassicas, everybody. No, I, yeah. And I gotta go. Great seeing you. Yeah, we're going to call in a sec. Thanks Kevin. Thanks for being here. It's crazy how many things come out of brassica and one of my discoveries in lockdown is guy line. Anybody cook guy line ever. Oh, I've heard that word recently where did you find it. So guy line go to your local 99 Ranch. So here we here we have 99 Ranch, h marked and okonom and not okonomiyaki. Oh, there's a third, there's a third Asian market that's really big wajimaya. So, so I have been doing short trips to Asia. Basically, I'll disappear and go to one of these three stores for a couple hours walk every aisle. And I feel like I've been to like the Changi airport and back except I didn't have to do like the vaccine passport dance. But where was I going with. So guy line is Chinese broccoli. It's basically kind of stalky, but not as thick as broccoli stocks and then a leaf that looks like a spinach leaf but not really tastes great and the stocks are tender and you just chop up the stocks cook the whole thing, or steam the whole thing, but they're delicious they're like they like the 12 foot kale that grew in was a Bermuda. And one of the reasons it grew there and became very common across to one of the, until one of the governors of the, the place decided they needed to broaden their. In case the British left they need to broaden their agriculture, but they turned the stocks into walking sticks. So, so there's this business of you know, kind of all natural or whatever is just, it's mistaken we've been messing with these things forever, and, and you know in the adaptation so for that's those those ideas and the galleon which I was thinking about to certainly is out of a gastro obscura, you know there's there's an atlas obscura. And then there's gastro obscura, which is all of those people coming out of the woodwork who have arcane knowledge of all kinds of different kinds of food. I had no idea they had I think it's part of Atlas right. I think it is yeah. It looks like it is from I just did a quick search. Yeah, and it looks just like it so it must be yeah. I think they're subset. So cool and I love Atlas obscure it's really cool. I do too. I mean I, I follow it avidly, but gastro obscura because I've been into food forever because we had such. Never mind I learned to cook out of self defense. But yeah, I love cooking. Cooking is the closest I'll get to alchemy so. Yeah. I can watch someone do it all day. Well, no, don't do it all day. Watch someone do it all day. Someone I don't know that I could watch somebody do it I like. Yeah. And I've also like my kitchen is suddenly stocked with a whole bunch of Asian ingredients that I didn't know about, you know, a decade ago. And on my list of things to buy next time and one of them in one of these markets is dark sweet soy sauce. Yes. Yeah, because I've got other stuff I've got meeting and I've got rice vinegar and I've got, oh you need and you need the Japanese version if you're going to do Japanese food so so I there's this. What's it called it's a woman who lives in San Francisco. She's trying to educate us all about how to cook Japanese food. And I think it is and I should put it in. I hope you remember. Another another good magic ingredient is Shaoxing cooking wine. Yeah, yeah. She says you need the Japanese stuff because that's what makes it the food tastes different. And, and she has recommendations for what to get and she has recommendations that are gettable by, by most people living in a place like we, you know, the Bay Area Portland the West Coast. She's trying to get grandmother tours of these Asian markets. I really want, I really, really, really want somebody who knows from the different mushrooms from the different dried fish from the different canned foods from the Philippines like what what in here to do with what like I don't know what to do with a bitter melon. It looks terrible. Why would I eat a bitter melon, but I know I've watched a couple videos online I'm like, All right, maybe I do that. So it's a yes. Okay, so where was this. I don't know. There's somewhere there is a markets. So 99 ranches is in the Bay Area there's like 399 ranches around San Francisco. Yeah, they're fabulous. I remember discovering 99 ranch in daily city, I guess. Yeah, there's one daily city Pacifica. Oh, Pacifica. Yeah, there was one in Pacifica. Good Lord because there's one in Foster City. Oh, thank you. Yay, Red Boat Fish Sauce. I have to be really lean on fish sauce because April, if she sensed that there's fish sauce even in the atmospheric like in parts per million she'd be like, No, no, not going there so and I love like, you know, hairy fish. Yeah, yeah, anchovies all that kind of stuff I would put anchovies on everything. I remember arriving in Hong Kong on the way to India. And I was in 16 at the time I think, and my mother made us get off the plane she said, you know you may never be in Hong Kong again. And I got off the plane and it was drying fish and the stench was so horrible I didn't know that's what it was until years and years later. And, and I thought and they all told us how bad India smells and I thought I thought I could do anything but I couldn't do this. It was so horrible. Well, it is really worse in Hong Kong than I'm in trouble. Yeah, exactly. I think that's a very nice note to end this call on the stench of drying fish. It's perfect. Thanks everybody. That was like a really nice journey. Shaman, I want to figure out some way to flesh out express and then deepen our conversation about how bad how good were older cultures how does that work. Who's done the work and all that because I'm, I garden these things into this brain thing I can put it there. OGM is trying to create a shared medium like that, which we don't have yet but we're sort of moving toward that. And I think that that shared memory needs to have expressions of these kinds of debates and conversations in it. And I would love it. I would love it if you banned the words good and bad. Yeah, that'd be good. Well done. Thanks everybody. Oh, I'm going to. Thank you. Wow. These these recipes hot damn. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Kelly. You're there. They're all just super quick and easy and really delicious. I'm on it. I'm on it. And then we're doing more salads now toward the end of that summer. Thanks y'all pandora. Nice to meet you pandora. Happy healing. If she doesn't work out, let me know. It would be a tragedy because she's incredibly affectionate. Longridge is a really nice place for pets. It's not good for light gender colored cats however, because Jerry my favorite cat died on one of the last tea and cordite meetings here because I asked you to piss all around the thing to kill this black thing that was chasing all the everything right. I knew she would. I knew it wouldn't be there when I got home and he wasn't. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, minor all indoor cats indoor always. All right. Okay, well that's a more sobering note to end the call on.