 Hi everybody, I am Mitch Stein, might be a new face for some of you, but myself and Sherry will be part of a rotating panel hosting more and more of these shows joining Julia. So thank you so much for being with us and we're really excited about our guests today. Miriam Dix is going to tell us all about knowing when to say no, which we all know is incredibly difficult, particularly in the nonprofit sector and avoiding nonprofit scope creep. We're really excited. We only have 30 minutes and we have a lot to get through. So let's go ahead and dive in. Great topic. Absolutely. And like I said, Sherry and I are part of a group of rotating hosts here that you'll be seeing more and more of on the nonprofit show. So we're really excited to be hosting more of these sessions with you all. Hey, we just want to thank our presenting sponsors who have been with the show since some of them since the beginning and so I just want to thank Bloom ring American nonprofit Academy staffing boutique Inc. Fundraising Academy 180 management group who you're hearing from today, your part time controller JMT consulting nonprofit tech talk and the nonprofit show. Thank you so much Sherry. So I'd love to start off quickly with the person of the hour. Our guest today is Miriam, the founder and CEO of 180 management group Miriam. Do you mind just starting off giving a little introduction to the audience that might not be familiar with you or your work over at 180 management group. Sure. Hello everyone out there. My name is Miriam Dix and yes I founded 180 management group 10 years ago we've hit the 10 year mark this year. I'm excited about that. Yeah. And we are a management consulting firm we specialize in transformation. We work with nonprofits, faith based institutions, healthcare organizations, small businesses, those who are mission driven. And we provide consulting, coaching, custom events. So if we need to facilitate workshops and retreats and things like that we do that as well. And soon we'll be launching some new services so really excited about that. But our goal really is to make sure that any organization that we work with is supported in the way that they need to be supported when it comes to being operationally efficient so they can meet mission. And we really love the work that we do. And our clients. That's awesome. I feel like this is a good, good conversation today to have on mission creep. I feel like this comes up in so many conversations so I'm excited to hear what you have to say about that. Oh, yes. Yeah, it is a pretty good topic, I think. Let's dive right in without further ado. We're talking all about mission creep and how it manifests and impacts organizations and causes. Mary, can you help us start off by defining that and telling us a little bit about how it shows up in this work. So yes, I do want to start with a definition because I think that's so important for us to have the same be on the same page as we have this discussion. Let's start with a definition that might be a little unlikely. So if you were to Google scope creep, you would find this first definition that comes up is a militaristic definition. And it says that this actually let me go back to say this scope creep and mission creep are synonymous. So what you'll find if you look up mission creep is a gradual shift in objectives during the course of a military campaign campaign, often resulting in unplanned long term commitments. That's what Google says. And that's about that's about mission creep, right. And so what I love about this definition is that we often say in the nonprofit space we're in the trenches. We're fighting for all of the resources that we need. We are working ourselves really hard to get to, you know what we believe we need to do in order for us to meet mission. And so in an essence we are in this war right where some this warfare in the trenches doing this hard work. Yeah. And, and so when I look at that militaristic definition about the gradual shift in objectives. During during the course of a military campaign. So it's not that we had an objective shift in the strategic planning session. We had some objectives, objective shifts while we're on the field. Yes. And that's why it becomes so difficult to manage scope creep because we're already in the midst of doing the work. And now we're changing and shifting directions and priorities. So that's what it looks like to have mission creep or scope creep, and that we are already doing the work we've already planned the campaign we've already planned the work, and now we're shifting objectives in the middle of it. Now, why is that dangerous for many reasons. Well, the definition says, you know that we could, it could result in unplanned long term commitments. How many of you out there who have been working in this nonprofit space have, you know, found that there was a grant or some resources that seem to be a good fit for your organization. And it may not have had all of the objectives that you originally intended to work through, but these additional ones seem like they wouldn't be such a big deal. You get the grant, you get the resources and you realize now you're stuck with a long term objective that you never intended to have, and now you have to have the resources for it. So, so that's, that's what we, we find when we start to have that scope creep or that mission creep. And so how does that typically manifest it manifest or let me back up and say, what causes this right because at the end of the day I think there's some manifestations from the cause. But if we look at the root cause of some of the scope creep or mission creep that we find in our organizations, we will find that changes in leadership. The way one leader looks at your strategic plan, maybe totally different from the way another leader will look at a strategic plan. And so changes in leadership will bring about some scope creep or mission creep. What about changes in perspective of board members or changes in perspective of donors. I hear you on that. I also feel like my clients, it's like changes in perspective, but everybody has a new idea that the nonprofit should do. And I feel like oftentimes my clients are in half their time is in defense mode on like, well, the great idea, but that might take me out. So I feel that maybe maybe you see that too of like more ideas in that board meeting. Any stakeholder. Yeah, any stakeholder that has a vested interest in the work that you do could be are often to, you know, you know, often to some la la land about what it is that we believe the organization can do. And they don't have the insight, some in some cases, to actually make that decision to say we should be going this direction or another direction because they don't know the workload they don't know the pace. They don't know the struggles they don't know some of the challenges when it comes to staffing or resources when it maybe it's technological resources maybe it's not just money, but they're on the fringe, but they have a perspective. Yeah. And that that also lends itself to to scope creep or mission creep. And then the need to, and this is a big one to me, the need to diversify revenue streams. Again, you find that grant opportunity, you find that money, you find those resources that donor that says, well, we'll give this money if you do these things. And for the things you already do. But the other four you don't. Yes, yes. Let's go do it in a new state or a new country. I can point to one of those. It's interesting to me because I feel like it's one of the beautiful things about nonprofit work is everyone feels a sense of ownership in what you're doing and that's great right to a certain extent and certain instances that you have such a common bond with all stakeholders around organization, but then it can lend itself to people wanting you know I would argue the vast majority of those suggestions are well intentioned when they come in and people are have great ideas they want to share. What's the right balance to strike do you think when when you're fielding those questions that are pushing you further than you know as the as the like strategic vision holder for the organization and the direction you don't need to go. The balance is in the, when you think about what you would want to have happen in your organization, if taking on these additional initiatives, or these additional objectives is going to move your organization further away from what you believe it should be doing. And that's not just in the services provided but the culture that's established, because what we do know is that scope creek can cause burnout. It can cause misalignment. It can cause a lack of focus confusion within the organization and insecurity, because the resources are now just stretch so thin, trying to make something happen that is causing an insecurity job. People feel like me their jobs are in, you know, in, in the balance, because you know now we don't have enough money to do what we thought we were going to be doing. Now I don't know if the work that I am doing or was doing matters now that we've changed or shifted. And so it causes this this sense of insecurity. So if you're trying to figure out, you know, the best path forward, I think we should be strategic about how it is that we approach new objectives, new initiatives, and even if you're trying to diversify your funding. Yeah, I feel like the mission creep scope, it's like a nucleus or a spider web. It does touch every aspect of an organization. I mean, fundraising, HR programs, ops. Like, I think our, which maybe leads us into our next question about wraparound services, I think is what we're calling it. Could you just talk a little bit about like how, you know, how maybe this is impacting so many building on how this is impacting so many parts of the organization, but talk to me a little bit about wraparound services. So, you know, I have, from my perspective, working with nonprofit organizations and clients. I didn't know necessarily the term wraparound services at first, because I'm coming from a corporate background. I've had my hands in nonprofit work for a while before I started consulting a nonprofit space in the nonprofit space. But the idea of a wraparound service is that this service is something that supports a service that's already in place. A service that we already have expertise in a service that we had known that we know is effective that we know produces a result. And this wraparound services is just that it's wrapping around a core service and it makes sense. What we've noticed is that some wraparound services are are moving beyond the expertise and the experience of the organization into new realms of possibilities. And that's a little tricky. And I think that's where we're like, okay, well, do we want to grow and stretch? Or is it too far of a stretch because we don't we're getting into the space that we don't really understand and we don't know. And we may put ourselves in some kind of position from a compliance standpoint that we haven't really evaluated because we just don't know that space. And so a good wraparound service is one that doesn't change your core business model. And I know that that term we may not use that term much in the nonprofit space but we do we have a business model. If we provide these three or four services because we're trying to meet these needs, the specific need or two in the in the community. That's our business model. If we go outside of that to do things that we don't have experience in that doesn't support what we're already doing. It's probably not a good wraparound service. It's just a new separate service. I feel like all of these. All of these types of things like it really does take a strong leader or leadership team to be blocking that I mean something like Mitch said some of these are probably great ideas or you know well intended but I would think like it takes a strong leader. I guess I see this in my clients to to to no one to push no one to pull and then obviously I'm a believer in having an objective partner you know somebody like yourself in the room to say oh hold on hold on. So I feel like objectivity is key there when you know organizations want to serve as many people as possible and want to make the biggest impact but sometimes there is a line that gets crossed I suppose. Yeah you know you know and I'll get some strategies on what I think may help with avoiding scope creep and mission creep. Because I do think that the strategy should be objective. You're leading us right to our third question here strategies and KPIs thank you for that. Well and we know that down when we are you know going into the space into this work. It is passion driven work. We're going into the nonprofit space or industry or sector without passion. We're going into this because we believe strongly that there's something that the government isn't doing something that you know isn't being hasn't been legislated but people need and they and we want to fill the gap. We are we are trying to fill the gap for the needs of our communities. And so that's the passion that we take into it. Well what gets us in trouble is if we try to manage with passion that isn't balanced with just so this managerial perspective of what it looks like to have a really efficiently functioning organization. Like it has to be it has to be some balance there my passion and with what we actually can actually accomplish in our organizations. So one of the things that I think is very important is to make sure you have an up to date strategic plan that has been and I'm going to add this caveat that has been operationalized. I've gone into many organizations and asked about their strategic plan and doing an organizational assessment to identify maybe why they're having some of the challenges that they're having. And I will get a response of oh well yeah it's not really current. You know we really haven't pulled that out in a while it may not make sense for where we are right now. And so it's sort of sitting on a shelf. It was almost as if we check the box that we had the strategic plan done and then we put it on a shelf and we really didn't revisit it after that. Yeah. And we haven't looked at it since COVID. And then COVID happened. And then COVID happened. The other thing is like even now maybe our plans shouldn't be so such long term plans. Like five years you have a president's change maybe you'll have local officials change. We know the pace of business in the economy is different now. We don't know what natural disaster is going to throw us off track. We don't know what's coming down the pipe. And so like three years might be more of a better range of plan than five or six right. And so just thinking about that. But if the plan hasn't been operationalized what do we mean by operationalizing a plan. Meaning that that plan has some teeth to it and that certain people or departments or areas of your organization have a responsibility with goals to be met based on that strategic plan. Right. Because when you do that you try to it actually helps to support this alignment that we're all moving in the same direction toward a similar or toward the same goal the same strategy. Even if I have a different part to play I have a different role to play than someone else. We know that if we look at our work plans because our work plans are based on these goals that are based on our strategic plan. Then we know who's on first. Yeah. Right. When you have that kind of clarity then you can also have a decision making matrix for when things come up that we're not playing. Because at the end of the day we're not perfect. We are you know we don't have a crystal ball. We don't know what's coming down the pike. But if we had a strategic plan and a work plan it's easier to tweak something that's already there than to try to create and reinvent the wheel. So I think that decision making matrix is another strategy. So you have the strategic plan. Right. You operationalize and have work plans but then you have a decision making matrix. Because when the time comes for there to be a decision on we want to diversify revenue. We have different perspectives of our board members or donors. When those conversations come up whatever the idea is that's being floated around then we can go back to this matrix and say does it meet these following criteria. Is it a good idea for us to move on. I hope that makes sense. It does. And I'm feeling like what I saw a lot. It's like I sometimes I think should I still be bringing up COVID but I do see my clients still kind of reeling in some cases or you know thriving whichever way but it is interesting of thinking of there's there's mission creed but also how do people then say but actually there's a new opportunity. You know that maybe the pandemic brought on to where before you were local and now you're regional or your national. Did you sense that people were really like struggling with that is this mission creep or is this an opportunity in this moment to really you know stand up and lead in this area when frankly the country needed needs nonprofits the most. Well I think it again it goes back to are you standing up and leading in the area where you have expertise. Yeah. Right. Are you deciding to stand up and lead in the area that's just void like there's a void there. Yeah. And so having that understanding to say yes we're going to stand up we're going to lead now our voice magnifying a voice is different from changing your voice. Hmm. Oh that's right. Put that quote down for the show. I like I like that double click. So if you're if you're magnifying magnifying the voice that's already there. Yes that's the same voice you're just wanting a stronger stand you want a bigger spread or a bigger reach or whatever the case may be you're magnifying the voice. But if you change your voice. The impact of changing your voice means that people may not be able to hear you because they don't that that voice is unfamiliar coming from you. So good. And so. I'm sorry I was going to say that I feel like what you're getting at reminds me of what Sherry said earlier about objectivity. And the value of having someone like Miriam in the room to be an objective observer, because it's so easy to get caught up in the passion or excitement of new money and new opportunities etc. I feel like that framework and strategic plan gives you that objectivity. Let's refer back to this what we set together and it's almost like Miriam can be in the room after you've left by virtue of having having that good solid framework for people to refer back to. Right. Absolutely because objectivity is the name of the game because you know passion can can take us on high highs and low lows. Right. So if we stay objective knowing that the the mission is at the center, not just my individual passion. Yeah. But the mission is at the center of what we do, and that mission is driving our strategy and that strategy is driving our decision making. Then that helps us to remain objective, but not lose our passion. And so I think that you know having that decision making matrix is important. And when you create that decision making matrix, make sure that it aligns with your strategic plan. Right. So that way when you ask the questions on the matrix, you know that you're already in the vein of what you wanted to accomplish as an organization. Yeah. And then the other piece I would say is make sure that if you're going through and evaluating based on a decision making matrix that you're not doing in a silo. Right. Yeah. So the same two or three people. Yeah. Making those decisions. And they don't have enough information. They don't have the perspective that they may need in making those kinds of decisions. So it's important that if you have a decision making matrix that maybe you have a committee that's going you know that's helping to make that decision. And you know you're getting the perspective and the feedback of those most impacted. And so I think that's a great way of keeping it one objective and two, making sure the perspective is there and making that decision. So good. You know, Mary, you know who this I when you talk, I'm like, funders are attracted to this. Give me the strategic plan. Let me see your path, your work plan to those end results. Talk to me about that decision making tree. I feel like this just sets the metric. Yes. I feel like this just sets up organizations to have those investment level conversations in a different way than perhaps a lot of organizations can. Do you find that your clients are really when there's clarity when there is this North Star and really the structure to back it up that funders are like flocking to them. Well, I'll tell you what happens. What happens is internally it breeds confidence. Right. And it's a shade. Yeah, stress reducer. So then when leadership goes back to the board. The board can tell that something has changed and shifted. And they're better able to communicate the needs that they have to achieve the mission. Yeah. And when you can communicate the needs very clearly, then funding makes more sense. Right. So then the funders say, well, we understand exactly what you need because you're able to communicate that and it's not all pie in the sky. Yes. And that's what makes the difference. And this is the other piece. This is the last strategy I will give is that there should be some sort of regular evaluation of utilization of resources. Makes sense. How do we know when we're at capacity or over capacity. Yeah. And what does it look like for us to need to build capacity that capacity building we have capacity building workshops we talk about capacity building we do all this stuff but how do we assess it. And and do we have a plan of action to do that regularly. So if, again, we have a decision making matrix, do we have the capacity to pull this off. Yes. And that's the piece that funders will flock to because if you can say we need to build capacity like this in this area to do these things. You're more likely to have a funder say, oh, we can do that. Yeah. Oh, you just need that. Oh, you need this position field. We can do that because you have clearly linked all the dots. You have told the story, you know, and I know that fundraising is about storytelling. If you can have a clear compelling, precise story of what you need and how you need it and what it's going to do for your organization, the more likely you are to get that dollar. Yeah. In capacity building general operating revenue, but that not you're speaking my language on this one. So good. So good. Yeah, it's so important and I feel like something that we lose sight of is how draining decisions are. Gosh, if each if each decision you're in big and small, it really adds up and takes a toll and prevents you from doing work more effectively and efficiently. So if you have an easy thing to reference where like we don't need to have a full team meeting about this, like we've got the framework we have these decisions we already made up front to help reduce the stress of those ongoing micro decisions that also just makes things work much more streamlined. Oh, gosh, yes. And, and, you know, just kind of going back to that whole work plan thought process, right? When folks have work plans. They don't have to go and ask questions all the time. Less meetings. That means less meetings, less meetings. You know, it's, it's almost like when, well, when you don't have structure, a very clear structure and a clear way of working together, all decisions rise to the top, because they have to. Someone has to sign off on it. So it has to tell you, yes, that's what we want to do. Someone has to okay the plan. And what we want to do is make sure that people can work independently and can, you know, make certain decisions at their level of expertise so that everything isn't rising to the top stressing out the senior leader. And so I think those, those types of structures just really help everyone to be at their best, reducing the number of meetings, reducing number of emails. All right, right. The extra work or the rework and dual work. Yeah, because we know that this is, this is my lane, this is your lane, this is our lane. And it just makes things flow a little better. So good. Love learning about your work today, Miriam. Well, thank you. Yeah, and I had one before you wrap up Mary Mike said we've been talking a lot of great strategies do you have an example, especially if the idea of the wraparound concept is new to someone do you have an example that you could share more specifically about an organization you worked with or like what would be a real world instance of something qualifying as a wraparound service. Let's see if I can pull out one that's not like damaging or anything so overly. So, so, for example, you may provide, I was working with the organization that specialized in sort of access to reproductive health care. And so, part of that may be going out to educate on your reproductive health. They didn't necessarily have physicians, but they may have had folks who were clinicians and that they understood the medical terminology to have those kinds of discussions. But then if you go if you start to say that we're going to provide reproductive health medication or services outside of just education. That's a whole new ball of wax right and even though it may support the need for people to have reproductive understand their reproductive health options. If you're specialized in education but then you start providing services, then you really have to be thinking about what you need what's the compliance issue there what's the liability there. You know, how who do we need to hire. How do we need to grow. Yeah, all those sorts of things that requires a totally different conversation than what you probably had during your strategic planning process. Yeah. Right and triple the money, you know, triple the budget, you know, right, right. So that's one area. Let's say you were affordable housing. And part of your realm of responsibility is that or part of your strategic plan or your mission. Let me go back to say that your mission says you're going to work in one zip code. Because that zip code is one that is, you know, from a poverty standpoint, they need the most resources when it comes to affordable housing. But then you find that you might be land trapped and then there's other land that comes available, but it's not in your zip code. But there are people who could still benefit from affordable housing and another zip code. Yeah. Great example. So do you then say we're going to go and you know build homes affordable homes outside of our mission driven zip code. Because we're starting not to have as much land there. That's a different conversation. Yeah. And then do we build single family multi family apartments, because we were just doing single family homes before. Perfect examples. We're all thinking of like, oh, yeah, I've seen that one. But Maryam. Yeah, Maryam, thank you so much for joining us today. We have, we have had the end of the hour here. It's super, super interesting and valuable. And hopefully a good call to action for some of our listeners to start revisiting that strategic plan. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, well, I feel like I'm going to, I'm going to start with me right as we just wrap up and thank our sponsors again. Thank you, Maryam 180 management group. Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy staffing boutique Inc fundraising Academy, your part time controller, JMT consulting nonprofit tech talk and the nonprofit show. Thanks so much for being with us today. Mitch, you want to sign us off? Yeah, I would say thank you so much for joining us everybody. And from all of us here at the nonprofit shows, stay well so you can do well. We'll see you tomorrow.