 Great, so welcome everyone to today's webinar on forestry for Maine birds with our guests Sally Stockwell with Maine Audubon and Amanda Mahathie with Forest Stewards Guild My name is Bill Libek and I'm a senior conservationist with Heist Ed Foundation and serve as a coordinator of the regional conservation partnership network This webinar is an offering of the Northeast Bird Habitat Conservation Initiative whose purpose is to facilitate collaboration among organizations agencies and regional conservation partnerships interested in sustaining threatened bird species at the population scale The initiatives partners include Audubon organizations from Pennsylvania to Maine the Cornell Lab of Ornithology, Heist Ed, and many RCPs across the region So before we get going I just wanted to mention that we're recording this session for sharing with our network members who aren't able to join us today And Sally before we before you take it away perhaps we can get around the room if you will and And folks can introduce themselves if you just tell us your name And where you're from the organization and if you're part of an RCP, please feel free to say that as well Thanks very much, and I'll call on people. I'll just go down the list I'm jumping over our main speakers and I'll start with Casey Hamilton Hi, everybody. My name is Casey Hamilton. I'm a conservation associate at Heist Ed and I help support the H2H RCP And Connie Hi, everyone. I'm just going to put my video on during this introductory part because I have online learners behind me So I'm mostly going to be muted and unseen Anyway, I'm in northwest Connecticut in the town of Kent and I represent the Litchfield Hills Greenprint Collaborative Great. Thanks, Connie Nancy Yes, hi I believe I'm not muted So I'm Nancy Patch. I'm with the Department of Forest Parks and Recreation in Vermont and Helped start this forestry for the for the birds and I'm also a co-founder and board member of cold holiday canada regional conservation partnership Excellent And let's see Aaron Hi, everyone. Nice to see you. My name is Aaron with them. I'm with Here in my capacity as the coordinator for the down east conservation network Which is a RCP in Hancock in Washington counties in Maine And I'm based in southwest harbor It's here Aaron Let's hear from Jeff Hi, Jeff Richardson with mass order, but I work with our version of the farcest for the birds program Um, I'm not formally associated with any any rcp. Maybe mask on I I work a lot with Thanks, Jeff and sarah barker Hi, I'm sarah barker from the corno lab of ornithology and I um direct our corno land trust bird conservation initiative and With that I work with bill labic and kitty on The northeast bird habitat conservation initiative and I'm really excited to hear more about This forestry for the main birds program today. So thanks Great, I think that's everybody. Did I miss anybody? Perhaps on the phone? That's not a video No, okay So I've asked the speakers when they'd like to take questions if you have a burning question Maybe in the transition from one speaker to another that might be a good time to do that But also for the most part if you could hold your questions to the end that would be that'd be welcomed So with that, I think I'm turning it over to sally stockwell Actually first amanda is going to give just kind of a quick background A quick overview of the background of this program and how it got started here in comparison And especially for those of you from outside of Maine You might be interested to hear a little bit about that So we'll take it away Thanks Yeah, and so amanda behalf of the forest stewards guild over in the brunswick main and just for you know Zoom etiquette if you feel like turning off your camera because you've been on too many zoom calls this week I'm okay with that. So feel free to make yourself invisible so you can you know kick back and enjoy So sally and I have been doing workshops in Maine on forestry for main birds for I think it was 2013 was our first one And so we're we've been tag teaming and today during our presentation. We're going to kind of go back and forth during For some of the different slides and hone in on different sections So we've we probably won't take a full hour and a half to get through everything But we welcome your questions along the way So please feel free to pipe up in the chat box or If we're really not noticing that you can unmute your phone and and just and ask a question out loud But just to provide a little context so in main we've been lucky to work on this program since 2013 But it really came to pass first in vermont So the vermont forest department of forest parks and recreation nancy patch Being a key person there and then autobahn vermont teamed up and came up with this program and they have a much More in-depth history that they can tell you about it and the early stages of developing the program for the first time But their efforts began in 2008, which feels like a long time ago now But the idea of pairing Soba culture and kind of the the lens of foresters and I am a licensed forester So pairing that lens of looking at the forest for timber for, you know For forest products and for woods water recreation in addition And then pairing that with kind of the birds focus seeing the forest or the birds and what can birds tell us about What's happening in the forest and about the choices that you can make as a forester as a logger or as a landowner That can impact what's going on in a forest stand and also as we'll get into it looking at the landscape level That seemed to really resonate with a whole lot of folks. So since the vermont started their program in 2008 Maine has picked it up Massachusetts Connecticut has a foresters for the birds program. I've been involved in helping Rhode Island develop bears I'm going to be talking with folks from michigan next week and I'm working on a On a forestry for oregon birds project. I also got to go to north carolina Where the autobahn vermont folks were partnering with them on getting you know getting the program started So different places sometimes it has a slightly different name. The original is foresters for the birds in maine We decided to adapt it to forestry for maine birds and and other wildlife But it's it's a really great program And it's the the model of seeing the forest for the birds seems to resonate well with foresters with conservation professionals With woodland owners and with loggers So sally and I will share a little bit more about why birds, you know, why why forestry for maine birds And how we've been able to kind of grow this program and what's it like going to a workshop So with that sally will get us started Okay, thanks amanda and I I know based on your introductions that it sounds like a number of you are already familiar with this program In one version or another. So I this will be main's version of the program But I really want to talk about it At an introductory level for folks like Aaron who it really aren't as familiar with it So bear with me those of you who already know a little bit about it Um, so As amanda said, we we started this forestry for the maine birds program in 2013 We actually started the program before we started doing workshops in combination with main autobahn the forest stewards guild the main forest service and department of inland fisheries and wildlife and um Since then and that partnership has evolved and remains very strong today So that's pretty exciting. It's part of part of the real success of the program. I think so We're going to run through a program that we would typically do at these workshops either for foresters for landowners for loggers and we start by saying, you know, why birds? Well There are many Poles that have been surveys that have been done across the country with Fault small family woodland owners where wildlife and in particular birds always comes up as one of the top One to three reasons why they keep their woodland why they enjoy their woodland and Um, people get excited about birds, you know, you can you can see them you can hear them There are all kinds of different birds. They're wonderful songs It it captures people's imaginations and helps connect them with the land and with their woodland Another reason why we focused on birds is is because they're easier to see They're easier to hear they're easier to find than some of these other wildlife species links martin moose, you know Brook trout we we all see those but they are a little bit harder to find and so we use birds as a surrogate Birds and their habitat needs as a surrogate for other wildlife needs as well with the idea that if we focus in on the habitat needs of a variety of bird species And we manage our woodlands to enhance those habitat features Then we also provide habitat for all kinds of other wildlife And of course landowners care about other wildlife and they care about recreation opportunities hunting fishing Or even just aesthetics So we take all of that into consideration another reason why we focused on birds is because we know based on Reading bird survey data starting back in 1970 that many of our familiar forest bird species Have been experiencing precipitous declines and I imagine a number of you if not all of you heard about the research page of paper that came out last year in science that documented we've lost About 30 percent of all of our birds since 1970 and our forest birds are one of the groups that have seen A pretty precipitous decline at least in in many species So here's an example of one of those species the veery That is you can see this line here that shows Just a dramatic decline starting from 1970 going to um to see 20 This is a little bit old, but you know 2015 or so and it's continued so part of the goal of this project is to try to at least stall that decline if not actually reverse it And why main? Well, we love to show this Map because you can readily see the darker the color the darker red colors show where the most number of forest bird species are found On breeding bird survey routes that occur all across the united states and so on a typical Route here in main we get up to 40 different species in one survey And you can see in many other places of the country It's half or or as little as you know zero to 10 species So we have many species that come here to main that breed here And here's a here's a a good reason why National Audubon put together a map a number of years ago that Illustrated the last best remaining blacks of forest land in the eastern us along the atlantic flyway And you can see pretty quickly that that dark green blob in main just really jumps out There is nowhere else that still has so much forest habitat available for these breeding birds and As a result of that Much of the area has been designated as a globally significant important bird area Important bird areas for those of you who are unfamiliar with them are places where there are either Many different species that are all found in one place that are breeding there or a lot of individuals of One or two species and that's critical habitat for those in this case We have many different species that come here to breed And so every year, you know, we have these the amazing migration that happens where Species are returning from southern us the central america South america And they are coming back to main And for those of you who are birders the springtime is always such an exciting time to welcome back our friends We think of them as our residents, but in truth they spend most of their year outside of main But we don't like to say I admit that Why do they come back here? Because we have that the state is about 90 forested. We have almost 18 million acres of forest. It's very diverse We have northern hardwoods northern softwoods northern mixed woods and oak pine forest all in this little state We and and the birds make this long migration because there are abundant places for them to Nest and also lots of insects Lots of insects means they can find the food they need to feed their young Raise their young and send the next generation of their species on their way It's also one of the other benefits of coming all this way back to main is because we have really long days Lots of light They can be out there collecting food from 4 30 in the morning until 8 39 o'clock at night Which means that they often have multiple clutches throughout the season to sometimes even three different clutches so After we started doing these workshops and meeting with landowners and foresters We decided that we really needed a number of resources to provide to the to folks In addition to the workshops. So over the course of several years We worked together to first put together the forestry for main birds Which is our most detailed guidebook. That's the one on the top right right right here oops, sorry right there and then we Next put together the woodland owners guide, which is sort of a condensed version Of this one a little bit more accessible. It's got the essence of what we're trying to convey in the guidebook, but Not as detailed and then we also put together a special book for loggers which which Depicts kind of the essence of what we're trying to accomplish in the program, but Is really designed to think about the operations and how you what you were actually doing in the woods And how that can what kinds of things a logger can actually do to help Create habitat good habitat for birds And this has been really well received now in some other states You know, we've heard from folks that oh, no, we don't really we don't want to deal with the loggers They they don't seem that receptive We have two professional logging organizations in the state Who we worked with to actually develop the brochure and as soon as it was done They said hey, can we get can we get copies to send to every single one of our contractors? I think people will be really interested in this and that amanda and I am a former colleague Also did a series of short presentations at their annual training workshops So the loggers have been it has have been an integral part of our program here in maine And then we've also worked with a group the american forster foundation on reaching out to landowners and developing some Additional outreach materials including this set of what they call trading cards That depicts the 20 different species that we're sort of zeroed in on here in maine and helps identify them Talks a little bit about their habitat requirements and you can and that's on a little ring here They can take out in the field with them So now it's time for your first quiz These are our 20 birds that we are focusing in on in maine the bear of conservation concern to For one reason or another and um And so we want to ask you How much how well do you know your birds for starters and then we'll talk a little bit about them We have a lot of smart birding folks on here We'll let the poll run for another 30 seconds or so but we know Boy, we know um, we know a lot of you probably have some of the answers well at hand Usually when we put this slide up during workshops then uh, you get a mixture of the folks that know their birds Folks are like, I think that's a red bird. I think I've seen it before And folks are like, I don't know. I'm here to learn But it is really cool to see all 20 of them And the more workshops I go to with sally the more I learned about forest birds. So it's always pretty exciting All right a minute has gone by. I'm going to end the polling And share the results So let's see sally you want to talk about our poll answers. Can you see them? I can thank you Yeah, so the first one was scarlet tanners don't like oak trees balls They are typically found in the tops of big old oak trees Everybody got oven birds. They that's our you know, that's one of the easiest Species for people to learn and that's part of it Can you point out which birds are which in the 20? I guess most folks are probably know what they are, but Yeah, okay. So the poll okay. I just had to move the poll out of the way Scarlet tanner is probably pretty easy to find the scarlet tanner Nest and topsa nests and sings in the tops of tall oak trees The next one oven birds. This is our very noisy teacher teacher teacher bird that everybody knows from the woods chestnut sided warblers this guy right here um Most people got that one right that they like. Oops. Sorry. I think that's I'm looking at this one There we go. Okay inside of warblers they um We chose them because they like these little gap openings in the middle of mature forests They can also be found in young forests, but in our case. We're really focused in on trying to Enhance mature forest characteristics because that's what most of our forest birds prefer so chestnut sided warblers will Will nest in these and feed in these little gap openings Canada warblers. That's what I was pointing to at first Uh, few people said they nest in the tops of pines. Nope These are one of our ground nesters. They nest right on the bottom near shrubby thick shrubby areas often associated with water In fact, I was just out in the field on Tuesday where we heard one of these and also northern water thrushes that And and I love their song because it kind of goes like this Did They're they're very difficult to see because they're very secretive, but They're a great um species northern perulas Everybody got that one right? these guys here They specialize in building their nests using old man's beard lichen and are often at the very tops of Trees they they have this sort of Kind of And then veeries Few people got that one wrong veeries here Right here. That's one we just saw the picture of earlier veeries Really are often associated with water. They like to be down on the forest floor looking for insects. They like being next to water Yesterday with the canada or the tuesday canada warblers. We also heard berries in the same area And then eastern wood peewees Which are here Nope, where's our eastern wood peewee? here eastern wood peewees And our All side of fly catchers both catch insects on the wing So as you can see based on the poles We've we've tried to select a variety of species that use different habitat features in the forest And we've tried to choose species that were relatively easy to identify by sight and or by sound And the one kind of thing that we didn't have touched yet are the species that use snags Like the yellow-bellied sap sucker. So let's go on now and look at in a little more detail At a couple of these species Can you can you hide the um pole now? I'll try to figure out how to do it. I thought I did I just I got it. Okay. All right, so This is a great little graphic that autobahn vermont put together that we stole with permission And it shows how each different species uses a different part of the forest to nest in That's why we have so many different birds that come back to me That breed here because there are lots of different features But if these features are missing in the forest, then you're not going to have those species showing up So you get everything from here's our scoward tanger big tall oaks There's our canada warbler down in these shrubs by water Um also the veery by water There's the sap sucker that likes dead standing Trees or snags the chestnut side warble that likes little gaps um Blue headed virios that kind of like the middle story there and eastern wood peewee that likes these little gaps because they can fly out into the gap and catch insects in the wing blue headed Excuse me black um black Throwed in blue warblers love hobble bush. So they're often found lower in the canopy And so I like to think of the forest as a little bit like an apartment building and if you have an apartment building that just has two stories with Two apartments on each story versus an apartment building that has 10 stories with five apartments on each level you're going to be able to pack a lot more Species and a lot more individuals of each of those species into that taller apartment building. So that's kind of what we're aiming for And in our guidebook, we've developed these pages that describe the species How to identify it where what their habits are and then we have these great little graphics that were developed by Don Morgan that depict where you typically find what type of habitat what type of forest you typically find that bird in So again chestnut side of warbler. They like that little little gap opening. Sorry very sensitive To the mouse touch and Uh oh and then backing up a second on the side of each page we've outlined which Forest type they prefer So we have northern softwood northern mixedwood northern hardwood and oak pine and in the case of the chestnut sided warbler You can see that their preference is northern hardwood, but they're also found in northern mixedwood and then we've also looked at are they in Um old forest intermediate age forest or young forest in this case you think of it as young or you know an opening Young opening within an older forest So we've outlined that and then where did where where do these typically find the birds In the understory the midstory or the overstory and where do they typically nest? So let's look at a little more detail of the canada warbler. They're one of my favorite species and these We chose to include canada warblers in our list of 20 priority species because Like the very their populations have declined dramatically Again, here's a closer up view of the habitat preferences that they Enjoy and then here's a here's another example of how they have really declined And now i'm going to play for you a real recording of what they sound like as opposed to me trying to imitate You didn't hear that all right Just a little bit Maybe could you move your phone a little closer to the computer? Sorry the live birds are much more fun Well, we can hear we can hear just a little bit, but yeah, they are they're quiet sometimes okay So another species that we chose the yellow bellied sap sucker because they really Required these dead standing snags. They often prefer hardwoods young younger age hardwoods or I mean stands of younger When you think of it it's early successional hardwoods Oplers birches those sorts of things and they will drill holes if you've never seen they drill holes on the tree they Collect both the sap and the insects that are attracted to the sap which is why they're called sap suckers And now just for a little fun for those of you who don't know as much about birds you'll notice that All woodpeckers have these really stiff tail feathers that lets them Hold themselves prop themselves up against the trunk of the tree and then They they have tongues that literally wrap all the way around their skull back here So that once they go have a hole and they go they can lengthen that tongue all the way into the hole far into The tree to grab the insects they're looking for and each different Woodpecker has a different drumming sound We'll see if I can if this one will be any louder for you I'm I'm using the merlin app And we'll see if this works any better We can hear it just a little bit at the beginning All right It worked during our trial run. Yeah, I did Anyway, they have a drumming that starts kind of fast and then slows down and and just like with unique songs for each different Songbird each different woodpecker also has a unique drumming pattern that you can get to learn And so for all of our woodpeckers having dead standing snags or decaying Trees is a key component because they not only feed there but also nest in cavities in those trees And and here's a species where the population had been declining But is now starting to rebound a little bit. So that's actually good news And part of the reason is because of having more habitat available for them with the trees Now woodthrush are another species like the veery that has declined dramatically over the last 40 years and We bring your attention to the woodthrush because they are kind of a poster child for species that are really struggling with Habitat fragmentation Can you hear that? No, yeah. Yeah, just a little bit. Yeah. Okay. So that was that's embedded in the slide. Anyway, they like all of our thrushes. They have this wonderful sort of flute like sound they Thrushes have a unique vocal chords in that they can They emit two sounds at the same time. So you get this harmonic quality to the song which is magical And woodthrush are found in mixed woods dominated largely by hardwoods and they are often found in that middle Area the mid-story six to 30 feet of the forest But they often feed on the floor of the forest, you know, amongst the leaves looking for invertebrates and that sort of thing But they their population has dramatically declined and one of the reasons is because They are what we call an area sensitive species So we have a number of our songbirds here in Maine that and elsewhere in the northeast That are really you're more likely to find them in larger blocks of forest in this case at least 250 acres and in where they're It's part of a larger landscape of forest So up to 2,500 acres because then you have you tend to have better quality habitat and larger blocks of habitat and so When you have Where you have and they can they can at when the blocks of habitat are larger their Home ranges can be in the habitat quality is better their habit home range size can be smaller and you can pack more species in And the the shape of those forest blocks is really important as well So for those species that are looking for what we call interior forest habitat Away from the edges away from predators that are like are more common along those edges A a block like this that has the same area as a block like this is usually preferred by these interior nesting species So at this point we're going to pause and see if there are any Questions and then i'm going to turn it over to amanda to talk a little bit more about how to go about doing Habitat assessments and putting together a management plan But before we do that we want to start by asking you a little bit Oh, that's the same. I know. I don't know how to get to the second poll I see because I want to relaunch polling We have another poll. We have another poll for you We do. I just don't know how to get to it I think I can do it. Okay There. Oh, hold on a second See and pulling here Sorry, thanks for your patience with the technical difficulties. Usually usually when I do polls, I have all the questions that this is it. Thank you, bill All right Thank you. Yeah Take it away, Amanda. All right so If you don't mind filling out the poll while I chit chat over the top So so far in the workshop Sally's given an overview about, you know, why birds? Why main? And then she's given an introduction to a suite of forest birds And when we go to different parts of main like if we go into down east main where there's more northern Softwood forest and we would tweak the birds that we that we would present about a little bit Versus if we go into oak pine forest in york county So we always adapt this slideshow a little bit depending on where we are and who the audience is But now we're getting to the point in the presentation where we have to tie it back to the management side So main like most of new england is largely privately owned And while we do while we have worked with folks that are part of the much much larger industrial ownerships Then a significant portion of main also is in small private forest land ownerships And so that means working on management plans And working with landowners to help them identify what they care about in their land and hoping that we can integrate birds and silviculture As part of what they want to have happen on their land So I think we can probably end the poll and share the results I'm going to try Doing that and pulling And share results. So yay everybody is already doing some but wants to do more for forest bird habitat bingo Okay, I'm going to close that poll for now But actually before I do I'll just mention so everybody here wants to do more We also do come across landowners and especially if we do a workshop with You know with with a land trust as a partner Or with a woodland owner association as a partner There's folks that are interested that care about wildlife But a lot of landowners do care about wildlife according to the national woodland owners survey But they don't know how to help so they come to the workshop There are some landowners that we come across that are more interested in other official wildlife And again birds are a good way to help folks see the forest for the birds and understand The values of forest structure But this helps them get to their other values as well And then there are landowners that are focused on other forest values So we're hoping that we can introduce them to a little a little side something different So this trail map Kind of gives an overview of how landowners get from What do I do with this land that I own to implementing soba culture on their land and of course with all this It takes time and we're in it for the journey So the first one if you can hit down On the slide sally is the landowner goals and objectives or landowner objectives and goals So as a forester So yes, I think if you advance the slide it just highlights the there we go I have to have the clicker on it. Ah, okay. No worries So when a forester meets with a landowner The first thing that they want to do is to help the landowner identify what their objectives and goals are for that land If you're a land trust and you own land then you know recreation is a big piece of it you know trails maintaining enjoyment by land trust members and the public Are all important and then also things like controlling invasive species and sustaining wildlife habitat Those are typical goals that come up for some landowners. Of course, you know timber management Maintaining and creating a legacy for future generations. Those are all really important So it all starts with the landowner's goals and objectives And then as we continue along the trail map Well, so that's what they want to have happen, but it all depends on the current habitat conditions So what is out there on the land? Does it make sense? You know, what what kind of bird what bird species could you expect to uh to enhance habitat for on your land? So if you're in york county and you really want to have Habitat for a canada warbler that might be a little bit challenging potentially If you're in uh, whereas if you're in an area that has a lot of northern softwood It's that like you can you might be smile if I'm mixing up my birds, but But if you're if you're in a if you're in a northern softwood area, like if you're in down east main or far northern main Then there's plenty of canada warbler habitat And there are things that you as a landowner or as a logger Or as a forester can do To do something with those habitat conditions and enhance that forest bird habitat So you start with your objectives and goals and then you have to understand What's there on the land and with that you take a few more steps and then you can revise your objectives and goals So instead of being as broad as we want to enhance wildlife habitat You might have something more specific like I want to enhance habitat for canada warbler on my 20 acres That is dominated by spruce fir in callus main Something like that so you can revise your goals and objectives accordingly Which includes reference to those wildlife habitat goals and forest bird goals So once you have your goals and objectives and an understanding of your current habitat conditions in mind Ideally with a forest stand inventory Completed as well Then you want to capture that in a forest management plan And foresters should say to the landowner that the document the actual plan is supposed to be for you It's supposed to capture your goals and objectives and put it in a plan You know in terminology that is forestry, you know rigorous forestry specific But it really should be a plan for the landowner And plans in main and I think in most states in new england need to be revised or updated every 10 years So hopefully the land will be in your family that long and longer But you can take out your plan anytime You can adapt it you can add add You know some of these bird pages to it if you come to a workshop and you and you say, you know what? I really like chest excited warblers I think that when I do a timber harvest two years from now according to my plan I want to make sure that I benefit that particular bird And you can add the bird page into your forest management plan. It should be a document for you But the bottom line is within that forest management plan dot dot dot That should also spell out the silvicultural options And you're all probably familiar with the term silviculture It is the art and science of forest management. So there's definitely a science behind it And understanding the silvic of why trees grow the way they do As they take different forms in different stages of growth. How do they benefit different forest birds? And then there's the then there's the art part So when you're when you have your boots on the ground and you're deciding, you know Looking around like what what trees do I take? What do I leave? Where's the you know, how's the log are going to get his equipment in here? You know, how far are we to the markets, etc? That's kind of the art part how you make all those pieces come together and you take the science and apply it So silviculture the art and science of forest management So all of that silviculture forest management revised goals and objectives should be captured in your forest management plan Your plan should also include a stand map and for folks that aren't used to looking at at a forest stand in this way A stand map can be kind of a revolutionary idea Um, so instead of walking through your woods as we all do and just seeing how the forest changes around you The stand map helps to lineate the stand boundaries Um, and helps you understand how different treatments can apply in different areas It also can help you understand how different forest birds might utilize different habitat that's been creative Been created through the management on your land over time So the different stands that are numbered in this picture, um, would provide slightly different habitat for different forest birds The rectangular box on the outside is the property But there's also the landscape scale and usually when uh, when we do these workshops We like to print out like a giant map size blow up of the approximately 2000 acres around the property where the workshop is taking place Um, and so folks can see the context So sally mentioned the the woodthrush for example, so they care about interior forest habitat So if you look at at this stand map you can get or if you look at this stand map You can get a sense of what blocks of forest seem to provide interior forest habitat within the property But if you zoom out to the you know 2000 acres or so on adjacent ownerships around it That'll give you a much better sense of in general Is this the kind of neighborhood that the woodthrush would want to move to or live in So, uh, we want to think about forestry for main birds in multiple scales Okay, all you people out there. It's time to get engaged. We're going to do our handy habitat assessment Oh, are you going to say something sally? No, go ahead. Okay It's a little too early for you. So sorry. Oh, no worries. Okay So, um, can you see me? Yes, okay So wherever you are right now out there all nine of us on all 10 of us on this uh on this webinar So take your three fingers and turn them in so on your left hand We have live things and on your right hand. We have not live things So left hand. This is a reminder for overstory mid-story and understory On your right hand. It's also size wise. This is a reminder of Snags and standing decaying trees of course witty material and fine witty material So when we do a workshop in the woods that we get everybody to get out their handy assessment tool So you can start seeing the forest and thinking about overstory mid-story and understory and thinking about Dead things also standing decaying trees And snags course witty material and fine witty material So I think in the oh and Yeah, in the interest of time sally, do you want me to go through all of them or just kind of leave it at that for now? That's fine. You can we can go through the next, you know Okay So in the I think this is in the landowner guide Once you get the the three in three for your handy assessment tool, there's some bonus features So while you have live things on your left hand if you put your thumb up that also reminds you to think about gaps Which sally mentioned that eastern woodpea we an olive sided fly catcher and chestnut side of warbler Are some of the birds that like gaps so that reminds you to look for gaps And then picky down on the water You think about about birds that like water and like wetter areas And then on your right hand once you've done our Snags course witty material and fine witty material when we think about that oven bird the oven bird cares about the leaf litter So we want to make sure that That you know leaf litter in a hardwood or mixed wood forest is sufficiently present so that your oven bird can create a little nest And then oh one more thing is the tree size so both for live and for dead things Size size matters the bigger the better so the bigger the snag the more Species and the more individual members of a wildlife Unit can use that snag Or that decaying tree and the same thing for live trees the bigger and the older the better Insects can can can root into into bark of more developed older trees Much more readily than they can in younger kind of middle aged trees So tree size matters. So again, just as a quick review On your left hand you would look for overstory midstory and understory thinking about do we have a lot of Forest cover in the overstory a lot of forest cover in the midstory a lot of understory Um, and then you want to remember gaps and water on your other hand You're thinking about dead things because birds will key in on these features as well Snags coarse-wooden material and fine wooden material Leaf litter if you're thinking about your oven bird and just remember to look for the bigger the better I think that also goes for coarse-wooden material as well So as we go to our next slide This is similar to the the first graphic that vermont another one we borrowed from vermont Showed us but when just when you look at this with your handy assessment tool If you're looking at the overstory more vigorous canopy trees might mean that you have a quick quick quick scarlet tannager And all he's gonna tell me if I get them wrong Um, if you if you see features like more canopy gaps in this particular photo That's a little bit further in the background Then you might find a bird like an all-of-sighted flycatcher, right? Am I closer? Is that the wood pee-wee? pee-wee Okay, sorry pee-wee I'm still learning my birds But again with your handy assessment and then the mid-story so we have our mid-story kind of six to 30 feet in the air There are some birds at key in on having a denser mid-story So the woodthrush in particular likes having that mid-story that you know, well-developed mid-story As we go on you're looking for other features Snags and cavity trees. Um, this doesn't have the best examples, but hey, they're there So that's our our yellow-bellied sap sucker again. I think um, so And then in the dense understory, uh, the black-throated blue warbler That's kind of what it sounds like. Sorry. Um, anyway So the black-throated blue warbler likes hiding in the dense understory and then uh, we want to have sufficient ground cover So that you can have oh come on. Do we get a picture of the oven bird? Oh wait, wait. Oh, this is the uh, the Sorry, who is that? That it doesn't have anything there, but you already talked about the oven bird Okay, so we should have an oven bird there because there's a really cute picture of one. Um, but uh, so more down would um Sorry sally remind me. Uh, this is our our rough grouse. Yeah, so sally you want to talk about the rough grouse and the drumming So rough grouse need these big large dead down logs on the forest floor because the males will stand up on that forest floor and they'll start um Humping their wings and the noise then reverberates through the dead log out through the forest floor And that's essentially the equivalent of their song that's attracting the female permating Yeah, so no dead down logs. There's there's no Little baby chicks Yeah So that's why uh size matters big dead wood is important So some of the features we'll go through um here are also of course in the forestry for main birds guidebook for the in the foresters guide So again, um from the big picture perspective and we paired forest stand types Uh, we're used to talking about in terminology is foresters with uh forest habitat types So oak pine northern softwood northern hardwood and next wood as they're labeled in this slide And within that they're paired up to think about forest type age and tree size So in our next slide, we get a little bit of an example Of some of the birds that key in on those different vegetation layers and cover So again scarlet tannager you can read all the all the birds that really like having a nice dense overstory So those features are important and then we have a list of the birds that key in on that mid story You know six to thirty feet and then there are some that really care the most about what's happening in the understory So when you're doing your handy habitat assessment, you look for is there a lot of cover some cover or not much That's what we usually do Especially in the field with with landowners or foresters being introduced to this for the first time Then as we continue, what does that look like? So this is the more graphic depiction Of what very low low medium and high cover Looks for and I like to reassure people the birds aren't reading the you know the guidebook So if you're you know 30 to 70 for medium is a pretty big range, but it's just generally when you look at it Is it is it like dense? It's like oh, yeah, this is really really dense So just the differences in the vegetative vegetation and layer cover That birds are keying into in those different strata Next we look at stand age and tree size So here again, you can spend more time with this in the forestry for main birds guidebook Which is on main autobahn org slash ff mb You can download it and I think we might have some copies That we could possibly send you But again here we paired kind of the forestry terminology of you know seedling sapling Um in the intermediate class we had some discussions about single-age pole timber versus Two-age pole timber with a partial overstory So depending on the equipment that had been used to harvest that stand in the past and especially in softwood stands Versus older forests, you know, and what we think of is maturing or kind of the small saw timber size class Versus the older and more complex large saw timber Birds care a lot about how old the trees are and in main they grow pretty slowly so size and age are You know can be correlated when you get to you know a big size And an older age but older bigger better from a bird's perspective because there's just more micro habitat features that are available We can continue So, um, there's a lot of benefit to promoting late successional forests For one, uh, overall in main, um, there's room for having more of it There's parts of the state that have been very heavily harvested. Uh, you know historically And uh, here sally got to measure a 37 inch in diameter at breast height hemlock tree I hope that tree is still around Look Yay, nice But you know these larger older trees, um, they're really good as legacy trees from a wildlife perspective They provide more uh ecosystem service in terms of carbon sequestration They're also really good for climate resiliency and they provide that's all in addition to providing really essential forest structure For forest birds and for other species of wildlife As we go on another feature to look for are these small gaps So again, if you were to think about this in terms of mimicking natural disturbance, um, you know In an oak pine forest and we have these wind storms that happen occasionally more occasionally these days You get blowdown and you get natural gaps And so timber harvest can mimic that and what those gaps allow what you see in this picture That nice white pine regeneration That's coming in on the sunny side of that gap So the white pine is able as an early successional species is able to You know try to occupy that gap more quickly and help continue the forest and continue You know creating an enhancing forest bird habitat as well Then standing deadwood, uh, we talked a bit about this, but uh, you know, but standing deadwood We like to tell loggers where it's operationally safe to leave standing snags and decaying trees We encourage them to do so In some circumstances loggers have a choice of where they harvest or where they don't harvest And officially they're supposed to get rid of all All hazard trees before they begin really getting into an operation, but If there's a possibility of leaving snags, you know, the more the merrier the bigger the better Then we encourage them to do that Let's see Down-wooding material. Um, so that's another another important piece So, uh, we really try to tell landowners that messy is good So, uh, there we've had landowners come to our workshops before and they really like they take pride in creating that park light forest in their backyard Or in their wood lot and after coming to our workshops, they've you know, they've rethought it and thought, you know I think I buy into this messy is good thing. So in certain areas, uh, they will leave mess And show us the next time we visit And and and messy means more down-wooded material, you know, coarse and fine wooded material that provides that habitat It's important because uh, there there are other species that also use this to uh, to, you know, use Course wooded material to traverse areas. It's sort of like a mini highway for short foresters trying to Traverse regeneration or raspberries. It's another It's another handy feature to have on the landscape, but down-wooded material is is pretty essential And our leaf letter. So here's the picture of the oven bird that I was looking for If we're in a workshop where we have hardwood leaf letter Then I will actually scrape together a little pile of of hardwood leaves and create a little sample oven bird nest So these are really cool birds And one cool thing is that they call they seem to call all all day long Or just more frequently than other birds that you hear at 4 30 in the morning And so it's my first bird that I learned. So teacher teacher teacher or as we tell some people pizza pizza pizza It sounds more like teacher, but oven bird pizza. All right We can go out of the next slide We also want to point out native biodiversity is something that's really important For for maintaining a healthy forest for birds and for other wildlife You guys might be familiar with the with the top right Criter over there. That's a asian longhorn beetle Which is not welcome anywhere. It's non native And it has it's a decimated hardwood trees in western massachusetts and other places In the bottom left, I believe that's our native insect actually the spruce budworm And so that actually is different. It's native and it has a cyclical life cycle and Sally reminded me is that the bay breasted warbler and Yep. Yep. Bay breasted, capemays, black pole warblers are all queued right into that And their populations will increase When there's an explosion of those which is happening right now up in kebec Oh boy. Yeah So spruce budworm it's uh, it is devastating to forest And our main forest service the forest health division And their partners the new brunswick and kebec are definitely keeping an eye on this But one of the side benefits is that these native insects when they get into a kind of outbreak mode Do provide an awful lot of rich nutrients for forest birds So something to keep an eye on we can go to the next slide And we'll talk about riparian areas in wetland forests. So this is a beautiful picture and as you look at a landscape You know landscape photos or as you walk through your favorite wood lot Some some of the features that really stick out are riparian areas and wetlands and wetland forests And for forest birds. Those are really really important features as well um, especially because of the the linear nature of riparian areas with streams that zigzag across the landscape Those provide natural travel corridors For for birds and for other wildlife and I think sally's going to talk a little bit more about that in a few slides um, also, uh, just thinking about you know, vernal pools and significant vernal pools, um, you know within You know, if you think about how far fish or some of these critters, what what is their habitat zone around a body of water? You can see from this graphic that that a lot of species will like while they are centered on a body of water A riparian zone their actual habitat range goes much much more broadly than that So when you're managing the forest even, you know, like 1100 feet away Um, I don't know if this is feeder meter sally. I'm sorry. It's feet. Okay So if you're if you're even 1100 feet away from Vernal pool or a significant water body Then it still impacts, you know, bats for instance or turtles like geez these little guys can get around So you definitely want to make sure that you're managing your forest with birds and these other critters in mind And maintaining those habitat features will benefit all the critters that you can see here I mentioned significant vernal pools This is for a little bit past the season right now, but they are very fun to spend time in every spring Something I definitely have been looking forward to But again protecting significant vernal pools or even insignificant ones Is important and if you think about birds, you're also going to be enhancing habitat for these critters as well spotted salamanders Our wood frogs And a variety of of turtles as well we can go on Let's see. Ah, so the importance of landscape When you get up on a mountain, it's easy to look out and see From our from our perspective, you know, what it looks like on the landscape And you get a sense of what the birds might be thinking of as they make that amazing Migrational journey north and south each year So they're looking they're looking for the landscape level of what seems like a good place to set up camp You know, where do I want to stay this summer? So the landscape context matters as we all talk about going up to camp thinking about being away from people as much as we can Then some some birds care an awful lot about how intact is that forest around them? So do you want to go to camp and have your neighbors right next door? Or do you want to go to camp and have nobody around for 50 miles? So landscape matters in the context of forest bird habitat as well You want me to jump in now? Sure. You're the wildlife biologist I can I can cover for it, but you'll you'll make it sound better Um, so I'm going to talk a little bit about more about that landscape context Which is particularly relevant for our rcps that are trying to Work across larger landscapes And some of you may be familiar with the research that was done up at the University of Maine Where they kind of came up with this Suggestion that we can use these two species that canada lynx and the american martin as Representative umbrella species or focal species, whatever you want to call them For our young forest and for our older more structurally complex forest And if we manage across the landscape so that we provide Habitat for both of these species Then we're going to provide habitat for the majority of our vertebrate species in Maine We have about 60 percent of our vertebrate species use Our 80 70 percent sorry 70 percent of our vertebrate species use the same type of habitat as American martin like which is the sort of older structurally complex forest that we've been talking about mostly today and then about 20 percent maybe Maybe less preferred younger forest similar to what a canada lynx will use they like the early successional younger maybe up to 20 year old spruce fir stands because There's a dense understory there where their favorite prey animal bus notion here hangs out and so When you're thinking about your particular property and how it fits in with the larger landscape Encourage you to think about are there opportunities to What what is the mix of age? Forests across the landscape as a young is a predominantly young is a predominantly intermediate predominantly older and What we are suggesting as a goal and this would be a long-term goal for the forestry for main birds program Is that 10 to 20 percent of the landscape be in young forest? 40 to 50 percent be in older forest with at least 10 percent in what's considered a mature forest with over 100 years old over 16 inch dbh diameter breast height Right now on the landscape in main the light blue boxes are what are currently present And the dark blue are sort of what our goals where we'd like to be over time um No, no, no, sorry. That's not right The Um, this this shows the range from 10 to 20 percent and from 20 to 40 percent 40 to 50 percent Right now across the main landscape. There's only about two to four percent Of our forest that is in this older category That's one of the reasons why we've been promoting the forestry for main birds program which focuses more on this mature forest Because that's where most of our forest birds nest and and it's lacking across the landscape We have a lot of intermediate age Forest particularly in the southern half of the state that has grown up since the agricultural heyday And then a little bit of young forest and a lot of younger forest up in northern main where there's been extensive commercial harvesting That's been shifting in terms of the nature of that harvesting over the last 20 years in particular So this is this is really something to think about and that's what we encourage landowners and foresters to think about so in sort of Thinking about landscape level We're trying to promote these diverse mature stands that have Lots of vegetation in the over storing midstory understory gaps strewn throughout that forest large woody material That you can see where the pilliade woodpeckers are and also in this photo of a northern harvard forest where you've got this nice Down logs and really good protection around the water the older Trees that are providing good shade that keeps the water cool. That's what trout need And then the other thing to think about as amanda mentioned earlier Are really focusing in on where are these waterways where the riparian habitats because we know 85 of our vertebrates in Maine use these riparian areas or areas along streams wetlands lakes At some time during their life cycle We have a few species like brook trout or mink that are really closely tied to the water itself But then other species that use the areas around the extreme for traveling they let it's kind of like their highway through the forest system And so we want to really promote mature forest particularly around these in these riparian areas And then another thing to think about is when you're looking across the landscape Where can you encourage connections between forest patches across roads? Or between wetlands that are on one side of the road and the other side of the road So here you've got your riparian habitat That could be used as a highway by Different animals from moving from one place to another but there are also times when they need to cross from one forest patch to another And we want to encourage opportunities to keep those connections strong and keep them Uh across the landscape in multiple places This is a map that was created through our what's called our beginning with habitat program that works with towns on identifying where Good habitat is that you might want to try to Keep intact as you're going through the next phase of development And we know it's really important to connect wetland habitats in particular because the vast majority of Roadkill happens near wetlands And other water bodies and these these animals they move slowly They do move Anybody who's been out on a big night in the spring trying to help sell manners or frauds cross the road knows that So many of them get killed by cars. We want to try to minimize that by keeping these wetland connections And then the other thing to think about is um, are there ways to encourage members of your land trusts or your forest landowners to Do even more to protect to provide cold water refuges, whether it's in it by providing shade along a stream or shade along a Lake there Adopting practices such as autobahn at home bringing nature home basecaping yard scaping Lake smart. These are all programs that we have here in Maine that work with landowners On making sure that you're planting native plants. You're protecting shorelines. You're minimizing erosion keeping the shade and intact and providing habitat Both for birds and other wildlife and Finally, I wanted to include a little bit about the importance of connecting waterways because I know a number of the RCPs that sat in on an earlier brief conversation we had about this are more focused on watersheds and so Maine Audubon has been working with a lot of partners on a program called stream smart here in Maine Which has really been focused on how do we reconnect our waterways and start with this graphic because it's such a great example of how fish move we've been talking a lot about About birds and how they move and they migrate from South America up to Maine every year But we also have fish that move every year some that come from the ocean into our freshwater systems Some that are in freshwater systems all year round But during the course of the year, they need to move between foraging areas nursery areas spawning areas deep water Refuges where they can find cold or cold water refuges where they can hole up during the heat of the summer And this is going to be increasingly important as we face warming climate In the in the next several decades so Our stream smart program is designed to work with landowners land trusts municipalities on On removing any barriers and we have we have now a database of 30,000 Crossings where roads cross streams where we have Collected information about what that barrier looks like. Is it functioning? Is it not functioning? We know that 40 50 percent of our barrier our culverts are barriers at least part of the year if not more so we've been Promoting the idea that you want to replace these barriers with structures that span the stream that match the elevation of the stream that provide Passage for both fish and many other species as well And the bottom line is you want to let the stream act like a stream So this would be an example of what a great stream from our crossing looks like and We have worked with the state on getting funding providing funding for organizations to do this and you know air and I know In down east main. There's been a tremendous amount of work through the program called project share on Fixing a lot of broken streams With this kind of stream smart crossing and we're trying to do more and more across the state and we're trying to integrate that a little bit with our forestry for main birds program because What's good for the forest birds is also good for fish and vice versa So that is the end of our slides and we are more than happy to take questions And I'd be curious to hear from folks who are outside of Maine in particular, you know what How what comparisons they see between this program and other programs that they're familiar with Things that we might be able to learn from you Before but before we go there, I do want to mention that we have In addition to doing these workshops that Amanda described We have been working closely with landowners in western Maine and landowners in central Maine On helping them get funding to write wildlife friendly management plans fish and bird friendly management plans and Just yesterday. I was talking with One of my co-workers who said they she's been getting calls from we have over 50 people who have expressed interest in the central Maine area Of meeting with a district forester and putting and then potentially putting together a management plan One of whom Has over 500 acres and he's super excited. He wants to update his management plan with wildlife friendly Practices and so we're expanding a little bit more into the realm of working with Landowners on putting those plans together, but we unlike some other states We're not interested in doing the habitat assessments and the management plans ourselves. We're working with our local foresters our district foresters the state foresters to Help make that happen. We're just sort of providing the outreach in the background and connecting Landowners with the folks the professionals who are doing that work So yes, we have one final poll for you on What you think some of the biggest takeaways from this program was Yeah, we usually wrap up in the field by asking folks to share an aha moment Or something that kind of struck them during the workshop and it's a good feedback for us Because we see what what really stuck out in folks is folks minds and what they're taking home with them From a workshop. So if you don't mind sharing your we sorry we had to make this multiple choice But an aha moment or two that you had we'd love to Capture that as well. So and we're also very happy to take questions. We talked longer than I thought we would so All right, I'll let it run for another 10 seconds or so and Eileen is asking She says I'm interested in all the ways that you engage and work with foresters on getting expertise in civil culture with birds in mind Um, do you want me to talk about that sally? Yes, please All right, I'm gonna end the polling and share it Um, and it folks can multitask if you want. It's okay. Um, so uh, yeah, so how how do we engage with foresters? So right from the get go when we started this project, we had we had a kind of a initial steering committee meeting Where we engaged different stakeholders Both from the industrial side from the consulting forestry side from the state side You know wildlife biologists. We wanted to get buy-in into the project. This was in early 2014 when we started And throughout working closely with the main forest service was critical To getting the kind of the buy-in and also the the perspective of foresters and also for me working for the forest stewards guild As a forester, we wanted to make sure that this program would would make sense for foresters that would be using these tools As well as for you know for the other aspects of the program So working with those partners closely is essential and i'm sure that nancy patch would agree That working with your forestry agency is really critical to ensuring that you have a successful program I hope that answers your question. Are there other questions out there? Feel free to pipe in and we have so few people. I think you could also unmute and talk if you'd like you'd rather do that Hi sally and Amanda. It's sara. Um, thanks so much. That was a great talk Um, I have a quick question about what share of the forest management plans. Um, that to you or your partner foresters Create for these landowners. Do you believe are acted upon that were the management actually then occurs? Sally do you want to tackle that one? We don't really know You know, we're still we're still early in the process Despite that fact that we've been doing these workshops for some time now We are initial workshops really targeted foresters and Only in the last two years have we really started offering more workshops for landowners as well and and land trusts but the so We've done And and because it's taken and then the two projects that I just mentioned that we're doing in western maine and in central maine Are still at the point where we just We're either just getting people interested in participating or In western maine we're a little bit further ahead So we have over 20 some people who have signed up with the nrcs natural resources conservation service to write management plans and But it's taken so long to get the funding allocated from nrcs They're they're just getting that They're either getting their approval now or maybe they're getting their money now and so We're not sure, you know How soon they will actually be implementing that But we've also been working with the newland forestry foundation in western maine and they have been offering some funding to folks who actually want to do Practices on the ground and they've been getting a pretty good response A lot of which are people that we have worked with initially on writing the management plans who are now ready to do something with those plans And others who who are just interested in either doing something New with newland forestry foundation or who have An existing plan and they're ready to act on it. So it's It's variable. We've done we've done some surveys Follow-up surveys with people asking them How likely are you to do something now that you've been through the workshop and the response has been pretty high? I couldn't give you an exact number, but we haven't gone And we've we asked people have you done anything yet and in most cases they just haven't gotten there yet So it's a long-term process. It's a long-term investment Of course, and as we saw from the trail map, it's a journey, you know It's a journey for everybody who's who's involved and for landowners, especially in You know, maybe in southern maine who have not thought about doing a timber harvest or they thought that cutting trees was bad I've heard the same thing in north carolina Then just getting them to think about cutting trees is a huge step and then all the steps It would go into that. How do you how do you have a management plan? How do you prepare a timber you know timber harvesting plan? How do you find the right forest or how do you find the logger that you feel comfortable working on your land? It takes time. So it's definitely a journey and a process So while we don't have like, you know instant management plans, you know, unlike some of the other Foresters to the birds programs in name. We didn't choose to have like teams of biologists and foresters like writing plans for everybody Our approach was to kind of start with like the forester audience who worked in the logger audience and the landowner audience Over time as we develop these educational materials kind of getting buy-in from folks It would be, you know thinking about the forest from the birds perspective So we've taken a different approach All around but on the flip side people that come to the workshops You know, we had an outstanding tree farmer the year who had was very, you know Sure about his park-like management of his land and you know after coming to our you know to a workshop or two He decided, you know, he he set up his his uh He leaves some areas messy instead of tidying everything up because he realizes it's better for the birds and he appreciates it more So um, he's already bought in with you know having a management plan that he's happy with but He is changing his perspective and how he manages his own land on the ground And i'll add one thing I'll add one other quick thing to that is um Our district foresters have said uniformly that they are hearing from people who Have come through our program or known about the program And they are convinced that they never would have interacted with those people before Part or unless they participated in the program So that that is a great That's a great data point and I think it's also Just the whole issue that it takes people time landowners time for them to both understand the opportunity Reach out to a forester And also for the forester Foresters to engage landowners and have it move towards actual management on the ground management It's also a reason why we thought it would be great to bring, you know, the autobahn organizations efforts Together with what rcps they're trying to do because In that case and also land trusts are working at landscapes where they actually want to see landowners move Along this ladder of engagement from awareness The stewardship to management, you know and potentially land protection down the road In these areas that are are most important to the landscape, especially for, you know, for example uh sustaining threatened bird species So it's a it's a great reason kind of a case for why we want to bring This part, you know partners together to to have us You know save and conserve species Together versus separately um Eileen do you have another question or is there another? Nancy sounds like Nancy you have a question Nope. Well, I know we're on the So I I don't want to use up the last few minutes, but I find it really interesting that Talking to the foresters and getting the forest is engaged is essential But it's not the only thing and we want to be really sure that we keep communicating with the landowners possibly landscape managers Um Because that'll help us pick our targets as as we go forward with where we want to where we want to really invest in outreach Yeah, one of the interesting things that has happened is we have Foresters who are now bringing this idea to their landowners. For example on tuesday I was working with a stanton stanton bird club Um, and they said, oh, yeah, their forester brought the idea of using forestry for main birds In management of their property to them And then on the other hand we have landowners like last year. I had a landowner call me up and say From the mid-coast area called me up and say, hey I'm really interested in doing this forestry for main bird thing. Can you come talk to me about what I can do in my property? I said, no, I really can't Just come to one property, but I tell you what if you can get together a group of at least 25 Neighbors who you think might be interested in this I'll come down and do a workshop for you So he did and and he had 25 different folks from the mid-coast area and they all got together and one of Again, like Amanda said one of the take-homes at the end was Oh, man, now I don't have to spend all that time trying to clean up my woods. You just saved me a whole lot of work Um, but they were really super excited and the idea of they had Neighbors that had adjoining land and they were going to be talking about trying to do collective Management plan, you know that would cross the boundaries of the properties and have one person that's working on the landowners So it's coming from both directions In that case the landowner the landowner invited his logger to come To the workshop as well. So the logger could learn a little bit about what we were trying to do Well, I think that's um, we're nearing the end of our time Um, I want to thank Sally and Amanda for a great program and for all of you for joining us In your great questions. I'm hoping that people will continue to engage on base camp Especially if you have ideas for additional webinars I think that's really an ongoing conversation that we should be having Because I think we all learned a lot from what's what's going on in Maine and each of us are Doing various activities and programs. We that's one of the benefits of coming together is really learning and benefiting from each other's lessons So we have I think we're we're out of time So again, I have a great afternoon. Hope you're all well and stay safe And we'll see you around Yep, sorry before we go on that vein of we are going to have another webinar I don't have the time scheduled yet, but it will be with grasslands. Okay, and we're in the process so It's a little slower with what's going on in our world right now, but um, I will announce that over base camp And it's same sort of thing to grassland programs that are happening in new england And we'll we'll bring those together and discuss those programs as well Excellent Thanks, sarah. All right. Have everybody have a good afternoon. Thanks everybody Here and we'll post recording Recording of this on base camp for us to share for all of you to share with your networks and organizations Thanks. Thanks again you guys great job. Thank you guys. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.