 Thanks for coming. I thought about like how can I bring you out of the food coma if you know what it is like after after lunch you are getting tired and I squeezed some video in which I did a couple of weeks ago to summarize the last five years in IT industry. I'm still not sure if it's a good idea, but anyway we have to figure this out and I I give it a try. Perhaps you have seen this guy before but in this in that environment. It's free you can download the idea. I've done it myself means not the laughing about the text. It's out there on Twitter. Okay, so now I'm going to start with a retalk how convenience is killing open standards and I at the beginning I was not sure if open standards alone is the right title because convenience is killing a lot. The planet open source and open standards, but I'm trying to focus on open standards right now. Giving you a little bit of an idea what I who I am and what what we are doing. So my name is is burned. I'm working as a CEO of German professional service company named Netways. And I'm also CEO of a monitoring company named I sing up or if somebody of you has heard of it. I've gave some talks on it a couple of years ago here at root conf. I'm also heavily involved in the death of states movement from the global core organizer group which helps organizing death of states all over the world. And I live in Nuremberg Germany in Nuremberg is in the north of Bavaria if that sounds unfamiliar and you can found me on Twitter using get hash if you want to. So where I'm coming from and that's I think it's one of the reason why I came up with a talk. So I I started my career as a Solaris admin when I was it was in the end of the 90s. I was like 80 90 years old at the time. I worked at a German resetter named Quelle they are bankrupt by now. So they they did like pretty much what Amazon did in a very old fashioned way. At some point I came into the Oracle DBA business for whatever reason. And I ended up in an open source company the company I work now. I'm there for 12 years. I think there's a very high chance that I retire there because I still love my job. I like it and and so why should I change. So I definitely don't want to leave the open source business anymore if I don't have to. So there's a high chance I leave there. So what is the motivation for the talk I have. I think one of the reasons really that I'm old. I'm old in the way that I'm still feel young enough. I'm 42 now but I see that on this topic there's a totally different point of view. If you're like 80 90 20 years old or in the middle of the if you're 20 or if you're like 40 45. Who of you has like started with some HPX AI X Solaris stuff. Let's say the minority. Some of you the older gentlemen's. So when when when I was young I was like super curious what I what I can do. So I started my career there. I came out from a windows environment because of gaming at home and then started doing the Solaris box. And the only thing they gave me was the terminal and I was super frustrated that we had like an 18 18 K for millions of dollars in the data center. And the only thing could I see was a terminal. And then we started there. And for the host guys we still had at the time in our company we were like the toy computer guys. So they did cobalt and assembler and we started to do some unique stuff and for them they really didn't take a serious. But it was important for us we would like to learn about it. We would like to do something great. But in the department I was at the time we pretty much only had Sun Solaris in HPX in the early 2000s. So millennials this was the kind of a modern platform people went to. We still had a little bit of IX as well. But this was kind of the unique systems we had at the time and we had to deal with them because that was the environment given to us. So we had we had big goals. So everything came you up. We started with our official like website at the time web shop and all that stuff that was was pretty cool. And what we wanted is like a great architecture. So we figured out that we need some application servers and databases and all that stuff and the glue to fix them all together. But it was really hard to get psych software on that Solaris. There was some platforms like Sun Freeway if you know that. But it was really hard to get the glue or the software which is out there on your platform. So what you did usually you asked your your company like Sun or HPX. What do we have what tool do you have and no problem whatever problem you have. We have some software for you it will solve it. Perhaps it's not cheap but it will work. So you waited for a couple of weeks and they send you some box you try to install it. Most of the time it worked pretty well. But usually we ended up that our initially plain construction zone looked like this. So we try to put some stuff together. It never never worked really out. So everything we did is like all the supposed improvements made it more worse. And since I guess it's happened so often in Germany that we even have a German word for that. Which is verschlimbeesserung. So if you even come to Germany verschlimbeesserung says in one word we try to make it better we made it worse. So this is one of the best words we have. So it was super frustrating because we won a willing we would like to learn but we were kind of trapped in that in that login that we can only use specific software which was available in that version for that processor architecture. And it was really not fun. Thanks to God we had a little bit of a standards and I think like airplanes and airports are a good description for standards because because it's so highly standardized. It's the foundation that we can fly from every place on the world to another because there's a standard how it works. In the Unix world at the time there was something like the POSIX standard which described like portable operating system interface which described a lot of different things like the basic definitions like the system APIs or even some some basic commands like it described that you have an NVI or AWK on every system. So this was a requirement. And that even for us for the Solaris folks in the team it was possible for us to do some simple stuff on the HP system because the POSIX standard helped us out that we have a chance to to port our stuff even our shell or seashell scripts from one machine to another. And this was this was really important. And the POSIX standard itself is like from 1990. Richard Stolman who was also very active in all that free software movement and and it brought a change. And I think that POSIX standard itself was a very important foundation foundation because at the time more and more people had that problem that they need some extra they needed some extra glue to make their system running. They didn't found it and there was something like new tools at the time. So you had a chance using open source tools out there in the community and and use them on your different unique system. So you were not more locked in in the unique system and their software anymore. So we they gave us much more freedom. And at the time already in our department Linux started to become a thing. So these are the old Linux boxes. Linux was founded in like 20 kilometers from the city where I live. So we had these big boxes with 20 CDs to install. We had we had one guy in the company who started with Linux officially. It was not happening in the company because it was not used at all. So we were laughing at him at the beginning because he was compiling kernels for weeks and then he missed this module and this model and this model and we from the Solaris. We behave the same way like the host guys behaved on us. We said yeah with your 1000 CDs you never will make it happen. We ended up at the company I work the official website. They run on Linux on his PC under his desk. They bought some Solaris machine we were running in the data center at the time. The only thing they did was like CT at home which is like gathering data for aliens. If you still know their project. This is what the official production machines did for us on the website was driven on Linux under the desk. And so we came into that business and it was just great because there was a huge community and people were so active in that and started to contribute. And it was for me the beginning of diversity from a technical perspective in that area because it was easy for you to work with all the different technologies bring it over from one system to another. Even you were not binded to a specific hardware so you couldn't use much everything and get your software from one system to another was was really fantastic as the point. So we all all our group we at some point we left the company or we started to go more into the Linux business because we just left it. So what happened so time flies 20 years from now. The current status perhaps is a little bit too pessimistic. But in some point from an open standard and from an interoperability standpoint I think we are kind of that point because we are celebrating that we have like multiple clouds out there. Everything is super easy compared to the past which is in some way true. And I think at the other point we are more and more going to a point where we're missing and losing some freedom. Of course passionately does here so we still working on that. Microsoft loves Linux for a couple of years now which is great. Could you tell me that 15 years ago I would say never but this happened. Even it happened because of pressure because of market pressure net because everybody's nice or bad because the market forced them to do so. And we have more open source than ever so we have more open source out there usable and non usable open source and get up or wherever it's out there. So a lot of stuff you can use. But on the server side we are we are faced with a market it looks like that currently so. Okay you cannot see where the data is not like I didn't come up with the data it's from a cloud report which is on the slides I will share afterwards. So currently you can say given that 31% of the public cloud and you can say that perhaps the hybrid cloud is 10% in addition we are perhaps 45. Nobody knows in exactly 45% of the enterprise computing happens in the cloud. So this is where it is so on premise and if you compare like today to next year on premises losing by 10% public loudest gaining gaining more attention. Even hybrid cloud of course but I think we will see a movement that perhaps in five years from now on premise instances will be at 5% or 7% and most of the stuff will be in a public cloud. So the question is is it a problem or is it just is it just like it is so so where's the problem with it. One thing I said we have more open source than ever which is true but open source is not open standards. So there's a differentiation I think it's it's they play together very well means perhaps because of open standards more open source exists or because of open stores open source they force more people into open standards. I think they have a strong relationship but for sure it's not the same. You can use an open standard format with a proprietary software which is OK if you do so but it's it's it's important to see that. And what an open standard is so we have like consortiums like World Wide Web or the Internet Engineering Task Force who are responsible for open for open standards. Another thing which is important and I have that often if I talk to the younger people that having an API is not a standard. So in the last years we we kind of adopted things like for example S3 compatibility kind of as a standard because other products are using it. So it's kind of a defecto standard. It's not a defined one but it's like a defecto standard. And even nowadays I would say it's pretty hard for Amazon to change this S3 standard because all the applications rely on it will be messed up. My problem is that we have a very unbalanced market and since my first picture version of this with Solaris and HPX was not true. I did it on my own. This is a real picture of sea at Leaport. So you go there check in for your flight and if you're not working for these guys you have to go to another line and wait a little bit longer. Which is perhaps OK if you have time or perhaps you have business class and you don't care because you have more money. But it's like in some way I don't like the idea honestly. Because it's and perhaps you can read it fully. It's an unbalanced market. Right. So how does it look like the major players in that business are AWS Azure and there is Google Cloud coming and there are all the others which I think in the future they will be there. But I don't think that they will be so relevant. So these are the top three fighting though the market. Azure has the biggest growth rate especially in the small medium business part. And it looks like I don't know if the statistic is true even it's like mentioned down there. It's a right scale state of the cloud report that that AWS for the first time will lose a little bit next year because of Azure is going so strong. I don't know if that really happens. But why can it say now we have like two or three big players in that market which control the market. But we have no standards though. There are no real standards in the cloud. There's stuff like open virtualization format or there's like open cloud computing interface ever heard somebody ever heard of OCCI. So you can see how popular it is. So because it is an official standard there like cloud software is like open Ebola, which is also unfortunately not very popular. They implemented that standard where you can play and manage your cloud resources the same way on all the multiple systems seeing as an open cloud. There are no open standards. I think this is one of the reasons why tools like Terraform are so popular. So who of you is using Terraform? A lot of you. So it's great. It's great software. But what it does at the end it like it solves the problem to you that there is no common open standard and it reflects that to you. Even if you if you work with Terraform you know that like configuring machines on Azure Google Cloud Platform and AWS is not exactly the same to you. So you have to adjust but it's kind of a layer and give you kind of a management abstraction to the cloud platforms. And Terraform is a number one growing config management on the market right now because of that means these these companies is hiring like crazy. They're doing amazing job with all the other tools they have. But the reason is because people at some way missing that fact that they don't have an open standard to work with their clouds and Terraform is in a lucky market position that they right now have people at the cloud providers working for them and making sure that the plugins work. So Terraform is people paid on the Oracle payroll who implement their stuff that Terraform works well with their software. But for me this is not what an open standard is. It's just like it takes away the pain that there is no open standard. But this is this is not what I want. And what is the impact of an open source then. So even if I said before open source is not an open standard and it's not the same. I think this is strong relationship. And the important thing. So we doing open source on our own. Perhaps this is also because it borrows me or it's it's one of my topics. Every open source company at some point they need to make money because the major open source out there is driven by companies. Of course there are individuals out there. They start with open source. They put it on GitHub and all that stuff. There are a lot of people spending their free time on open source software. But the majority of open source development happens in companies. So it's like people on companies payroll contribute to the Linux kernel. It's not like the folks at home in front of their TV doing some stuff. They are these these folks but the majority is paid. So what it means like these companies need to make money. And so imagine from an open source perspective is that you have open source and whatever model you can have it is like fully free. You have like a dual license. You have some enterprise module which is the typical open source way of making business that your foundation is open source. But some like special features usually is something like active directory or all that stuff. Something the enterprises needs which is something you have to give money for like the expect for elastic for example which is pretty much the model they use to make some money and revenue. And I think it's okay because at the end they have to pay their people. The problem is when the cloud comes in they taking the channel away from an open source company. So if you if you develop and if you waste time invest time in an open source product and a cloud company takes it away and says it as their service. There's no way for you as an open source money company to make any money because they get the money for the product. And we have seen that in the past with some products and there are some examples. There's also on the cloud era there some some good and evil and some not so good elastic. Take this an example because I already mentioned expect. So Google Cloud I think in April they announced a couple of partnerships with open source vendors. I guess it was like Redis it was like Confluent I guess it was elastic search. So they stated on the website that you can have an elastic service at our Google Cloud platform. We make sure that you have a single bill. We make sure that there's a single system where you can open up a ticket and we take care of it. But we also make sure that we contribute back to the open source community which I think is important and it's good. There are other companies for example AWS they release something like an open distro for elastic. I don't know if somebody of you heard about that stuff. I honestly don't know if it's good or not. I don't know because if I would say they have bad intentions I would to know I need to talk to somebody who's in charge and doing that. And I don't know it just feels a little bit weird because what they're doing is they added some extras to the elastic open source. And I have to be fair elastic did some not so good things to make it clear for people if they download open source or some commercial stuff. So they download stuff and the different license they messed it up in that way I have to say and they try to do better now. But so what Amazon did they had their extras on replacing some components like expect and brought it on. And and they have it as an open distro for they say their way to give it back to the community. On the other hand even the community helps them fixing their bucks as well. But the money is stream like ends up at Amazon and never goes back to elastic which is for an open source company. I guess it's a problem. And and where it leads to is that in the open source business area we feel that fear and protection companies have right now. So for example like MongoDB they came up with their server side public license where they permit that you use their product in a public cloud environment without giving back your modifications to the community. Which the same is like the Redis folks did. So Redis in his license I think they stated even harder that you cannot use their commercial modules and resell them in a public cloud environment. Because what they did they said hey we investing in our product and somebody else is taking it away is making all the money and not not giving something back to us. And I get that that this is a problem for an open source company. Even if I'm not sure if I like the idea that all the this ends up in creating new open source licenses because we'll have enough open source licenses. Honestly I think there are 10 people on the planet who really figure it out with all these open source licensing how it works because it's really if you go deeper. It's really complicated what you can do what you cannot do if you have to provide the packages and all that stuff. So it's even gets more complicated because all that companies feel pressure that they have a revenue model in five years ago. So we come up with all the new licenses still I don't know I can understand it on the one hand. I'm not sure on the other hand if it's a good solution that everybody comes up with a new license to protect their stuff. At the end open source and open standard they need support. So sometimes there was open source which ended up to be a standard sometimes vice versa. I also get that like defining open standards is one problem it takes a lot of time and today is like everything about speed speed speed if you're not the first you're done. So it's all about speed. So nobody in that environment we have now is like oh wait we have to create and meet up in the consortium to define a state how like function as a service could work and how we can make sure that interoperability can work in the future. So it takes too long so everybody's like on his road but somebody needs to pay people to do their stuff and to their work and bring innovations on the market. If you want innovation outside the public cloud so if you want that you have to make sure and we as a society as a community have to make sure that at some point somebody's helping them to pay the people. So where's potentially the future and the black and white should not look so pessimistic so please focus more on the hand because I still hope on the good things. So where we now we are we are still at the beginning in some point. Yeah we have infrastructure as a service for years now which is the different tools give you good ways to to bring your software stack from one platform to another. So platform as a service all that that that function as a service serverless movement is pretty new means there are a lot of well used components like lambda but there is more and more coming up for working with images and messaging and all that stuff. And I get it it has some value because it's just work it's just convenient you can just use it. So the question is if we are here. Is it like is it only getting only getting worse from now. I hope you have all seen Game of Thrones. Did you like it the last episode. It was no yes okay. I get it where you can discuss it but perhaps afterwards. No well no I don't think so so there is there is something we can do and perhaps we should do. So one thing I think we have to be clear that convenience is a risk means I have one of these phones to which is exactly the thing I have told you because I have it because it's convenient I played around with Android once I was not happy about it. You know me afterwards I know there's like fans in both areas for me it's just it just works and I moved in and I know at some point if they if it sucks me so much that I have to leave the platform that all the money I invested in the apps is gone. It's like perhaps over years $200 I don't know 500 for my son. But this will be gone this is my investment this risk I take going to that when the lock in I have here because it's convenient it just works. So login is a risk and as a company I think you have to make it clear to yourself. So if you put your platform on whatever provider out there without a chance to bring it somewhere else you have to decide at some point I am willing to take that risk. And I think it's okay if you do it. It's absolutely okay if you say okay we want to be we want to be fast because slowness is a risk to be slow because then you have a great idea and you think okay we buy our own data center stuff. And when we start our own Kubernetes and we need 20 people for it and we need all the boy by all on our own. But then you figure out now our hardware is ready. Somebody else came up with the idea and kicked you out of the market. So it's a risk to but I think it's important that you keep that in mind. Just go to the beginning. So if I would start if I would have a great idea unfortunately I don't have a great idea now. I would do it and I probably will start with some cloud offering because it would be just super convenient it could be easy. I at the beginning only pay for what I use so I totally get it. But at some point and I think everybody has gone through it. If you are successful with your company with your platform you have to reengineer it at some point because every developer knows that feeling you look back after and you're asking yourself what I have done in this night because it's crap at the time you thought it was just brilliant. So every company goes through it tries and have to reengineer their stuff and I think if you are successful and your revenue stream works. Perhaps that's a point to rethink. Is it is it only 100% smart to rely on somebody who's totally control about it and means company worry about it. Also from the rights case that is like priority number one in every enterprise companies is optimization of cloud costs because at some point they don't figure out why this bill is so expensive because people use the resources. It's so super simple but then they don't know what's running there so they are I think minimum 20 companies on the market and I guess perhaps it's in reality it's 200 who offer that service cloud cost optimization for you. So you pay somebody else to reduce your bill. Yeah well you can do that but isn't it a little bit weird. And so if you ask somebody and say hey what about pricing are you not curious about like if they have the market and they said no no. It's not a problem at all they reduced the prices for the last seven years every year. No problem that will never happen. But think about pricing in an oligopolistic situation where only two or three players control the market. Which I give you example happens with Insulin in the United States. So Insulin was discovered in I guess ninety twenty ninety twenty one and they sold the pattern to the University of Toronto to make it available to everyone that everybody who has that health problem has easy access to Insulin. So what's now is in 2006 one dose of Insulin and most of the people need like two months or some depending on how much you are into it costs sixty seven dollars. Today it costs two hundred eighty five dollars because only three companies in the U.S. control that market on Insulin. So nobody is able to why should they reduce the pricing and especially in the United States there's no law against like increasing the pricing all the time. So people die people get bankrupt and because they cannot afford the Insulin. OK perhaps you will say you cannot compare like public cloud to Insulin but I showed you that I I can. Abuse of power comes no surprise and this is something where I'm a little bit afraid of it's not that I cannot sleep at night. But I'm worried that so many people are not worried about this is the thing which my message should be for you hopefully that even if you disagree with like 80 percent of my stuff I told you today. You said at one point perhaps he is right a little bit and we should think about it. So what can you do. Hard question so be reasonable think about it think about it what you're doing at what stage of your life cycle perhaps you can change your behavior. Put more pressure on your company you buy your cloud services from. So. Take care that interoperability is important so. Make sure you have that and make sure you have a chance to go from one system to another to have that flexibility because it's important and open standards and and accepted standards. And I would be happy even if we have some open cloud standards even if they are not like created or confirmed by some concerns and even if all the big ones would agree. Because then it's also a chance for other companies to enter that market right if we don't have an open standard on function as a service service less computing and you came up with the idea I would like to start a managed service company. How should you there's no chance for you to participate in that market because the fact that there is no standard is really hard for you. And the only thing is you can do is you can try to to to be the same and provide the same service. But yesterday evening we had like a discussion and open standard and. And some guys said like he worked for Eucalyptus at the time and Eucalyptus somebody perhaps heard of you was an open source project at the time they tried to be kind of on premise Amazon alternative. And what they tried all the time is like trying to be AWS compatible and having the same API is like Amazon provides to you. But it was impossible because Amazon changed the IP is all the time. And since there's no standard they were not able to keep up. And I don't think about I guess Eucalyptus is not existing anymore. So it was close to impossible impossible for them to participate in a market provide perhaps an on premise alternative that you as a developer you as an engineer can work with AWS in the public cloud which is fine. But also you can play with a compatible layer in your data center or somebody else or in a local data center or you would like to support a local company. Means now they told us the last five years we should bring everything to the cloud. Now everybody is coming up with our products. Now we have edge computing. AWS announced something like outcast where they ship the easy to serve a pure on premise situation HP. I think it a couple of weeks ago announced something like cloud less. I watched the video like 20 times. I still don't get it what they would like to say. But perhaps try it another 10 times perhaps I can. So really please make sure that this is an importance for you so support the variety. So please make sure that there is more out there that we have we have all that we have different tools we have different providers we can use that we have that flexibility. Demand contribution. I think and I don't know enough because there's so many things are going on. I think is Google is doing it in a way better way now was like partnering with open source companies providing the cloud service because I get it that people wanted convenience and would like to use the tool. That's it. That's okay and they that's okay that they give money back but demanded if you are big enough you have like a key account manager demand that your provider is behaving perhaps in a better way to the others. And that we don't end up with like having having only five years. So perhaps doubt sometimes there's like a confluence. What is it named cognitive fluency if you have ever heard about it. So our brain is something like if something sounds really good to us. We are halfway in with super hard for us to make an active decision against which is a typical thing. One example is if you search to if you search for something at Google to support your own opinion because you would like to go for Kubernetes. What you would like to find as a result in Google is only some which supports your already met opinion. So always have to search for the other things you have to search for what did not work to create and go against the natural way in your brain is like moving you. I gave another talk about that you can find it somewhere. It's really interesting. Diversity is up to you to us because we as an industry invest a lot of time in having like a people diversity bringing everyone on board and making it inclusive and all the things. But I think and this is super important. But I also think it's important for us that we have a diversity in tech as well. And we have to demand it. We have to work together on it. And that's pretty much everything I have to say about it. Thank you very much for listening. Hope you enjoyed a little bit. We have time for questions. Five. Okay. If there any. Hi. So you described the problem really well. Right. But how do I sell it to, you know, an upper management who is worried about cost because to them paying for $5 a month for some proprietary service trumps everything else. So how do you propose to sell this? It's a very good question. I don't know how you can sell that to your management that probably use about and think about an alternative is hard. I think one thing is there are thousands of examples out there that using a cloud services not only about saving money. It's super fast and that that that part of being fast gives you a power and that it's perhaps cheap at the beginning. But first of all, and please correct me if you think about it differently. It's super hard to really figure out what my costs will be in three weeks because you technically get an O because there's like you have to pay for this package growing from a to B and that disk and this one. So it's super hard. And means they're also examples for companies who are successful. They try to get out of the cloud again, because they reached a limit of consumption. I think a good example is as far as an always data dog. So they are the biggest S3 customer currently and they moving forward or now bringing everything to Kubernetes and going off the cloud because it's so expensive. I think Dropbox did it and there are other examples company did it for whatever reasons. I don't know, but I think there's like, I think there's a lot of pros for public cloud. My point is just there's also con for public cloud and I just want that people think about it. But I don't have like the simple, the simple, like the simple words for your boss to say, Hey, we should think about it. Perhaps my slides could help perhaps any other question. Okay. So how I see this is like, this is this is an evolution. So if you see the olden days, there was a proprietary software open source eight the proprietary world cloud eight open source. And now multi cloud is eating a single cloud. Right. So the tools like terraform and all let's say is killing the cloud thing you see today. Right. So this is just an evolution how I see it. And like there are ways let's say ready slaps is doing great job because ready slaps is like putting their license and extra features modules and all how they protect like the AWS can't copy it. Right. So I see this is a way to, you know, protect them. You are you are right. It's it's just an evolution. Honestly, first of all, I don't think that every evolution is great. Is it it brought us as humanity in a lot of problems evolution. The other thing is, and I'm trying to be very clear about it. I don't like the idea that we have a future and seed very negative. Okay. In 10 years that 95% of the internet is controlled by three companies controlled by one government. I don't like the idea. I can tell you now, I can tell you now why, but I don't like it. It freaks me out means the internet should be more. It should be decentralized. We should like open standards because then everybody can participate. But if you like going in there is like with flex and say, yeah, we will be in there and nobody knows what happens. And I don't know. I have the feeling that it's, I don't know, not freaking out enough people to think about it. It's not about running the application or it's not about that you cannot like migrate your application from whatever provided to another one. It's like if they have 90% of everything, they control traffic. They control how much you get, how much traffic you get, how much I owe you get because somebody else is paying 20 times is more than you. And then you imagine you are staying on an interstate where somebody is passing you all the time and you waiting for the green signal, but you don't get it because others have more control. And that is something I don't like the idea. And even I don't have like 20 arguments to bring it on today. But I'm afraid of this like oligopolistic situation. I repeat it. I repeat the question. If I get it right, he said like Terraform is supporting you going multicloud. That's correct. And that's I think what I mentioned is why Terraform is so powerful and successful. But if you go and serverless and function as a service, I don't use the word I have in mind now. You are trapped. Hi. Hi. Up here. Should we this? Okay. Am I off? Okay. So I great talk. I totally agree with you. I can relate to everything that you've said. Other than the fact that there is a lot of lock in the lock in for convenience. There is another problem that you presented with. There is no standards. Now, I think part of part of the solution to that problem is not even there. There is no standards defining standards. Or do you think there are any? So there's open API for APIs. But when, when you look at standards like the S3 standard, I mean, it just became evolved to be a standard. It did not. It wasn't under on its own. Or there is no, like there's nothing like W3C or IETF, which can govern standards on his own. So I think one part of that problem is defining how we define standards and or is there something of that sort? It's, it's absolutely a good point. I think, I think at some slide, I mentioned that, that we have like these consortium stuff. And I, the problem is one is like defining standards takes a long time. And this is like, like slowing down everybody in that business, because it's like, again, being the first is very important. And I think we have to come up with better ideas how we can create open standards and how like also the big players play together and giving you a chance to take the system from A to B. I don't have an answer for that. I think like the old ways where we discussed it for years, how something should like something should be like does not work anymore. We have to find a new way of collaboration and, and, and force our, our suppliers, our vendors to do so. But yeah, correct. It's, it's, it's a very good question. I don't have a good answer for it. Perhaps we can chat outside a little bit. Okay. Again, thank you. Have a great day. Thank you. Thank you.