 Morning everyone. Thank you very much for coming in on this session, which looks at India's travel and tourism sector and the competitive advantages or the lack of it that we may have There are perhaps two ways to To look at where we stand today when it comes to the travel and tourism sector one is that we've risen 12 places in The competitive index when we compare it to other countries in the world The other is we are still way behind the curve So it is the classic Indian 5050 story is the glass half full or is the glass half empty? And that's what I'm going to pose to To my guests who join me on this special session. Let me introduce them I want to start with you Vishnu Menon co-founder and chief executive officer of wandertrails.com It's a venture funded travel startup making experiential travel Accessible to thousands of explorers across the world and particularly coming into India My other guest is Ajay Singh chairman and managing director of spice jet India Who's widely credited for turning around the airline and is someone who therefore has a unique perspective on what needs to Be done to move to the next level Also joining me is Craig Smith president and managing director Asia Pacific at Marriott International and Someone whose Hotel chain is spreading across this country as well. Thank you very much for joining us And all my final guest is last but not the least is Amitabh Khan chief executive officer Neethi Ayog India and is in his various previous avatars has also been the man the author of Branding India as Incredible India and of course in his home IS state of branding Kerala very successfully as God's own country Therefore I'm going to start with you Mr. Khan which is the specific issue of the branding of India today because the way One would like the objective of the government is to increase to double The number of people coming into India over the next 10 years We would like I believe one figure suggests that we are looking at about 20 million tourists coming in by 2025 How do you believe India needs to be branded to make it that kind of attractive destination where Tourism doubles in the next decade Rajdeep I'm not a great believer in the numbers game, and I don't believe that Tourism in India should be a mass tourism India should be a mass tourism destination. I'm a great believer in Values what India should really aim at is that in the next Five years it should increase its total earnings from tourism At least minimum 3x that's very much doable That's possible if India and India's we must understand this that India's a long-haul tourism destination 98.1% of our traffic comes by air People who come here stay for a long period according to World Tourism Organization The people who come here spend 18 to 21 days and therefore we need several things one is We need to get five states of India Who will make tourism their number one priority India is dying out for jobs India wants growth with jobs and the industry is not being able to tell politicians you want jobs go for tourism This is the sector which has a huge multiplier impact It'll create many more jobs than what industry and any other sector can ever do and I think what the industry must tell That you create five states focus on five states of India focus on five Integrated circuits of India focus on five Destinations of India make them world-class create a seamless experience from the point of arrival to the point of departure And then go for you see my view is That a brand is what a brand does you can't start doing branding of India without creating a great product on ground and Secondly my view is that you need to create great experiences But India's needs to become a great mice destination Meetings incentives conventions exhibitions are the big game We've been able to create hotels, but you need to convert India into a 365 days a year Destination you push for my mice India needs a hundred more conventions Destinations if you create a hundred large-scale convention and exhibition centers in India India's tourism will be 365 days a year. You would have created circuits. You would have created experiences push then push for branding and India will succeed you can't do branding without a great product and India must create great product and the way to create products is to tell Politicians and bureaucrats in India You want to create jobs in India tourism is your answer and your only answer in a quick fast way You know, I always like starting off with you because you energize the audience And as a former bureaucrat and as a former bureaucrat, I hope you and I was still a bureaucrat in a way I hope you energize your fellow bureaucrats and politicians to think like you do Well, you know the private sector has to do that Oh, I see so you're gonna provide the broad framework and then you're gonna ask them to do the dirty work of Actually setting up the infrastructure problem is they they speak in too many voices So there's a tour operator. There's a travel agent. They must tell they must have a very single way simple equation We want to create 3 million jobs. This is what you need to do Okay, I'm gonna come to that in a moment and particularly, you know What is actually required to build that great product? Where are the roadblocks and building the great product? And then we can again come back to branding but great. Do you agree with a lot of what? Amitabh seems to suggest which is that in this country At the moment, we just haven't fulfilled our tourism potential We're what you know tourism put together about 3% of GDP when it should easily be double and and providing the kind of jobs which Mr. Khan says, you know, we'll we'll multiply in a service sector like tourism Where to where do you find the fault? Is it with the government with with the likes of? Mr. Khan's colleagues and his bosses. Is it that the political class of this country has let down tourism has never seen it as a Number one priority sector. So this is pretty scary But the private in the public sector today in our in our conversations actually have more in common than we normally do And so it kind of worries me. I think maybe I'm wrong But I actually agree with most of what you said today. We are as a company. We're huge We're 6,000 hotels. We're growing all over the world. Imagine the size of our company We have a hundred hotels. Oh, we'll finish the year with over a hundred hotels in India Every time I see Mr. Marant, he asked me, why aren't you growing faster in India? We as a company are bullish about India and maybe more bullish than India's I agree We're you it's and I'm a glass half full person I think that India you could we could lay blame and we could spend a lot of time saying what went wrong Private public and we're probably both to blame but the truth of the matter is the upsides phenomenal How many jobs will that create? What's the residual impact of that money flowing? Most people and most politicians actually don't think about the fact that every time a tourist comes into this country It spends a dollar. That's an export. They're bringing foreign currency into your country for a local good or a local service That's an export and it's creating jobs and it's creating jobs at the right place It's not creating jobs at just the high skill levels. It's creating jobs at every single every single Venue but the government's done a great job I mean that what we've seen over the past and I kid around with that with my team I say it's incredible India and it's also impatient India India's Indians are very impatient But over the last 15 years that I've been working in India that the changes have been phenomenal I remember my first visit to India and staying at the Hyderabot Airport There was nothing to eat that I couldn't use the bathroom I'd die if I'd gone in there and the you know There were there were mosquitoes the size of pterodactyls flying all around And I look at the airport today and I go wow I mean what what great changes we've seen in India But there's more work to be done and the first thing that needs to happen is is it needs to be prioritized There needs to be some sort of union between the public and the private sector call it a board call it a working group Whatever but we need to work together to figure out and come up with a plan and stimulus What I do agree with and continue to agree with it You need to pick four or five destinations and make these the hubs make these examples I'm gonna ask you by the end which are those four or five destinations You would pick if you had a choice since we've sort of kicked that off with mr. Khan but I let me get a View from someone who sort of in a way has to deal with it on a day-to-day basis here in India Vishnu as someone who's trying to sort of encourage people to experience these new travel destinations to promote Heritage tourism which the president of India last week said was an important element in sort of attracting tourists to India What is the real experience? You know, how do you connect the various? How do you achieve last mile connectivity in a large and diverse country like India? How do you actually do that? Is it as simple as it is sitting here? Where are the roadblocks? No, they're quite a lot of roadblocks. Actually, it's first of all a very very fragmented industry When you look at experiential travel itself, I mean if you go down onto the ground talk about creating products I mean I'm dubbs. Absolutely right before you brand you need products. How do you go about creating products? Right there are existing hotel brands, but we already know that it's a supply constraint market It's supply choked in destinations, which are prominent and then you need to create more supply in new destinations We're talking about absolutely pick up three you pick up four pick up five But you want to create airports you want to create hotels. That's a four to five year gestation period minimum So you want to kick start off kick start the development of these destinations off much earlier The only way that can happen is by in a encouraging more micro entrepreneurs to come through So one of our end-of-hours at one trails has been how do you open up new homes? How do we ensure that holiday homes of probably NRIs have converted into vacation rentals and then lent out to people? More than that The activities in a destination, right? It's what you do in a destination that makes it truly incredible I think from a branding perspective Backward in that a lot of people still think about Taj Mahal or rafting in Reshikesh and there are a few of these hand-picked activities But the likes of what you talked about be the heritage to her or we have Fantastic river cruises in Brahmaputra where you can see the Gangetic dolphins. It's India's aquatic animal National aquatic animal, right? Or you can go on tribal tours with The Irla tribe in Neelgris you can spend a day with the tribe you can spend a day with the tribal king But how many quality hotels are there along the Ganga? You know, let's be clear You know, what is the level of connectivity to to reaching one of these wonderful? Sites along the river, you know, so there is that last mile connectivity presumably. It's a big challenge And so it's easier for a lot of domestic tourists to actually travel from hub destinations What I call us Delhi, Bangalore, Bombay These are hubs and people prefer to go on a way on we can get a miss for a foreign traveler What we use what we do is almost do design holiday design like a 12 days tailor it to the last mile so that we know There are qualified Cat drivers who are trained in their etiquettes who can talk to them properly and take them through the entire craft because to be honest We found that foreign tourists does Have some apprehension while they travel into India, especially when they're not relying on a big brands like a Marriott You know a Taj to stay in a lot of these places do not have that kind of infrastructure So you need to put yourself up in a boutique resort or a homestay So you need products and brands from our travel agency perspective from travel platforms perspective Which foreign inbound travelers can trust again, you know, I'll come to most specifics in a moment But I do one of the challenges is also to make this the largest aviation market by 2030 Which is again one of the goals Which is being thrown up and one wonders the gap between this dream and the reality Is it that even the aviation sector plays safe today is not ambitious enough to explore possibly New areas where you could go. It's it, you know, you're you're looking to go to Goa You know, you want to increase the number of flights to go out. Would you for example set up a flight to Hampi? You know, which is again a wonderful heritage site, but when I had to reach Hampi I had to travel all the way from Bangalore to To reach Hampi. So is the aviation sector ambitious enough to realize what is the potential? I think the aviation sector is one of the most vibrant sectors you'll find Anywhere in the world It is the fastest growing aviation Market in the world India is today is growing at 20% is the fastest growing in the world With schemes like uran, what we have done is that we have expanded the reach of Flights to airports where no flights existed before so 70 years after independence We had 75 airports which were functional in India in just the last one year We have we put 30 more airports on the map through the uran scheme There's uran phase 2 which is going to happen which will put many many more airports on the map Spice jet has started flying, you know for the first time to airports like putoo cherry Can you imagine there was no flight to putoo cherry? It's such a beautiful place We talk of goa go and I mean I'm sure you've been but Many people here should go and really see that place. It's beautiful. You you know, we've started Look at a place like agra today That is our number one tourist destination in the country. We have not one single flight into agra So we need to make that happen And we will make it happen through uran But we also need to start thinking out of the box We need to start looking at at even places where no airports exist today Spice jet is now considering a project where we use sea planes for the first time in India Now there are no regulations which exist for sea planes There is no infrastructure for sea planes But we believe that if you really need to get to tourist destinations Which where there is nothing which no airport infrastructure which exists You need to start thinking out of the box and find a business model Which works with other kinds of of air travel So there is no no shortage of ambition here Indian airlines have placed orders which are the largest orders ever placed by any country in the history of aviation So no shortage of ambition, but there's lots and lots for us to do We cannot have the most expensive aviation sector in the world The most expensive aviation turbine fuel in the world the most expensive airports in the world Because there was a socialist mindset that flying was for the rich Everything needed to be taxed now we've added to that by putting GST which is which is Really really large Tax on all sorts of activities related to aviation I think those kind of issues need to be fixed We need to be globally competitive and if if we can be globally competitive in terms of cost and taxation infrastructure There's no reason why India for the foreseeable future and perhaps the next decade will not be the fastest growing aviation market in the world GST You know a number of people from the tourism and travel sector are angry about GST and 28 percent for hotel rooms over 7500 and a belief that far from incentivizing people to enter the aviation and the hotel sector You've actually disincentivized people Is this going to be one of the changes one of the reforms that we expect in the next 24 hours? You can give us a headline that the government has decided 28 too high Well, I don't want to give any headlines. You put me into deep trouble But uh, you know, I mean rising the mindset in india is you know, you have We've we've created two sets of GSTs, you know up to 7500 Yeah up to 7500 which is at a much lower rate and beyond 7500 So many of us in india See tourism travel and tourism as a luxury and not as a job creator I mean the whole my whole emphasis is that the industry has got to say that i'm going to create five million jobs in india And for this you need to do this and this is the only sector which can create jobs in the quick run No other sector can do that for you for this country and therefore you need to this do the following. That's number one Number two, you've made great airports in this country Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad the great great, uh, Chennai, Calcutta all great airports We need to convert them into global hubs Look at jet flying to dubai Why why not deli mumbai? These are indian hubs. We must convert them into global hubs without that it'll not happen Number three Mark my word for this you want tourism to grow exponentially in terms of earnings It will not happen till india doesn't become a great mice market Mice is what gives you luck 365 days a year fourth It will not happen till 10 Chief ministers don't realize this that this is the sector which is going to give them jobs and growth You know it's happened. What are the look at us a country like india bigger than 24 countries of europe How many states are selling tourism kerala rajasthan gujran? That's all What about others? Tourism is the sector which is going to make their states grow the industry must be able to tell the politicians That you want growth. You want prosperity. You want jobs, which is the number one priority of all politicians This is the sector which will deliver How did you get a socialist mindset driven state like kerala to buy into your thing? I've often wondered You know kerala most people believe was the worst place to do business But you got in you know, you got god's own country right there What did you what what did you tell the kerala left politicians to convince them that this was the place to be? You know one simple thing I I got a tourism satellite account done By the tata consultancy service. It was the first tourism satellite account ever done to say that It has a 10x multiplier impact on jobs Then any other sector The politician the communists who never believe in god bought that line of god's own country went for it And it created jobs for them second the world of tourism works on being A you the only way to work is differentiate yourself. There are 180 destinations wine for tourists Differentiate yourself from the rest of the world What we did with kerala is we went back to the roots of kerala We created every single product of kerala, which was different. We went back to traditional kerala martial art We went back to traditional kerala cuisine. We went back to traditional kerala art forms We created new products of backwater house boats We brought ayurveda center stage and we said kerala is an antithesis of the western world It is a stress buster And you want you want to you want to relax? There's no other destination other than kerala and the world was then moving away from sun sand and sea What was then known as triple s into experiential tourism and the world bought that line You know when you retire you should put on your cv Your biggest credit should be that you taught the left to believe in god And that in itself Is a magical thing to do But what is that differentiator crank if you want to look for a differentiator for the indian market What would that be since amitabh is saying in in the context of kerala important to sell it as a stress buster Look at ayurveda Look at traditional and and make it a place where you could come and you know Have your traditional indian ayurveda massages apart from the lovely backwaters What is it that you would like to see india do is it the mice concept more convention centers or is it heritage What is that key differentiator crank when we start off by saying that you know countries like companies compete We you know you complete for capital and you compete for customers And countries don't see themselves as having to compete and today capital and customers are more fluid than ever The people want experiences. They want to go today. They're paying more for experiences than our product We spent a week in july with the head economist from visa and there's more money The the curve for experiences went up much faster than than it is for product And so if you think that you're competing you look at the government you look at india and think great great things have happened Evisa phenomenal. I mean, it's one of the most incredible things that's happened But on the other side of that gst good 28 bad if you want a hairline headline, that's it gst is good The the objective behind gst is good, but 28 is bad. What happens? It's twice the anywhere in the world So could you imagine if I raised my rates of my hotel twice overnight? Where would the customers go they go to the competition and the same thing is going to happen in india India is very very expensive to build a hotel That's why there aren't enough hotels and we can talk about tourism But if there's no place for them to stay or cost so much money to stay here because it's expensive Cost of land is expensive cost of capital is expensive and it takes forever to build a hotel because of the permits And you add all those together now you're adding gst at 28 percent on top of it You're a you're a builder of a hotel. You have capital. You're gonna maybe I'll build an office building Maybe I'll build an apartment building. I'll do something else And so the government's got to go back and say is this the right thing gst. Yes. It's good 28 very very wrong You want to compete you want to compete you have to compete by looking outside and saying what are other countries Charging for gst. What do they charge for capital? What are we doing to make it easier for a tourist to come here and then ask yourself are we doing that? Otherwise, this is all rhetoric at the end of the day. You know, that's my worry. It is all rhetoric You know, you the fear let me give you a simple example Experiential travel, let's say through Bihar For those coming in from southeast asia who want to go down the buddhist trail Go to gaya and places Which have a strong link with with buddha, but you're in a state which has an alcohol ban today You want to go to the gear lion sanctuary to see the last great asiatic lion The state of the prime minister chief minister of that state for for more than a decade total prohibition Maharashtra Beef ban Do you believe all of that in a way are all impediments? Then I mean if if Bihar wants to attract tourists and you know, that could be a potential state to to generate jobs since that's an issue Should the alcohol ban be lifted? Should Maharashtra review The beef ban or are there cultural practices taken to buy? They don't believe in drinking. They don't believe in pork. You can buy pork in a in a store. You can buy alcohol If you should set your priorities right like what amtab mentioned It's not that you're changing your people or the culture that you are following Uh, you're getting in making sure that From the point of arrival to the point of departure the experience of the guest is phenomenal Right and for that part of it is that you embrace the local culture and you embrace the local tradition But at the same time you do not create big roadblocks or big bottlenecks that will Prevent them from even coming in if it is relaxation. They might want to have a drink Or to I mean, it's not you know, that's precisely, uh, you know, uh, Mr. Ghani it will be seen as rhetoric a lot of what you're saying if let's say the Bihar government, uh, You know doesn't lift the ban on alcohol or the Maharashtra government sticks to its, uh, you know policies on beef ban I mean, do you believe that? You know the the state governments have failed to realize what a dubai Perhaps did so brilliantly is that you know at the end of the day. I need my tourists I have my local traditions, but I will give the tourist every facility He needs to live the life that he wants or she wants Sir, I see, you know, uh, I've been a long-term believer in a couple of things. One is that tourism is essentially Civilizational in character. You can't have garbage and filth and say that we have great heritage sites So india first of all must focus on cleanliness number one Number two, it's about seamless experiences around Indian states can't get into what a tourist wants to eat and drink Just not possible. I mean A tourist want what he wants to eat and drink is his individual business Not the state's business. Have you told them to the to the political leadership? I've said it all the time that For a tourist number three India can have the greatest heritage sites But it's about creating experiences and the tourists can go and Have all the greatest experiences through the day But evening he wants to relax and he wants to chill out And therefore you need to create that evening experience for him in terms of indian culture Whatever you want to do But you need to create that and it's very important that states work around this with private sector Fourthly tourism is essentially a private sector play every single person you come across From the tour operator to the guide to the taxi driver. It's all basically a private sector play The state is a destination manager But there's a private sector play and you need to create that seamless experience Right from the point a person comes till the point he goes And you need to build that through that a vast range of tourism products You know it's interesting you say that because Ajay you work Partly at least with the government and then more fully with the private sector Is there any notion of a public private partnership that exists in this tourism sector? Does everyone work in their little silos? You know, or is it still state knows best they will still decide How this sector is going to expand which is part of the problem Are they willing to unleash the energies of the private sector in tourism? No, you know unfortunately you're right. I think the divide really is that the Public sector and when you speak to bureaucrats and of course there are notable huge notable exceptions like mr. Kant The public sector doesn't seem to understand Profit business private sector it's still looked upon with suspicion even today even today We see this in in the GST discussions, you know you go and speak to the bureaucrats It seems that you know Either they don't understand Or that they have other priorities, you know for them there are 20 other things that they are thinking about They're not looking at it in a sectoral sense But I think one model that could work for us is to say that look let's pick these 10 Places which we want to develop as tourist sites and let us all work together on those 10 places To ensure that Everything works seamlessly in those 10 places the airport will be will be perfect. There will be flights into those airports Clearances for building hotels budget hotels all all sorts of Staying facilities those clearances will be given quickly You know there will be a mechanism to sort out whatever problems exist There will be proper taxi rides, which you'll get there'll be a foreign exchange center You know the whole piece works seamlessly There will be you know, whatever local laws of the sort that you were referring to will will will be Sort of diluted for for for those 10 areas We need to get so special tourism zones in a way special tourism zones And that this is a model. I think that we can try and follow in India and with the private sector the public sector The you know state government and the central government working together if you just need a few committed chief ministers and You know You've got a chief minister of India's most popular state who has forgotten to put the Taj in his in you know in his promotional material You know, I I just wonder, you know What what that's what kind of message that sends out You know my my my worry is that you know, there is a still a huge gap between The chief ministers and you know tourism for many of them is seen as a luxury sector They still don't seem to understand that it actually benefits that last my You know the the last man out there. Absolutely. And I think I think this case needs to to be made As Amitabh was saying, you know, we need to make this case in a language that will be understood by politicians And and you know, we have to be sensitive to the priorities of the political class as well And if their priorities is to create employment, we need to you know, rejig our discussion and our argument and I You know to to to show to them the the benefit that it's it's going to do To for them and for their states in terms of creating jobs I think if we can rephrase The argument in that sense a lot of politicians will play ball Because who the hell doesn't need jobs in their states? So you're saying basically reframe the entire tourism debate away from seeing it as some kind of a Exclusive luxury sector to saying it's basically about jobs And we've done that in the aviation sector if you look at the aviation sector for years This is something which has been a luxury good and that still you know In in the minds of some bureaucrats that still exists that notion that this is about You know flying is for the rich, but today You have all sorts of people flying you have the middle class flying you have lower middle class flying you're This is basic connectivity that you're providing to to Places airport states which had no connectivity and it's a huge multiplier Much as tourism is a huge multiplier aviation has been a huge multiplier for states And I think state chief ministers have started to understand You know, basically you've got to go and tell yogi adityanath what you told the kerala gub You've got to go there and tell him or you've got to go and tell a nithish kumar in behar Or you've got to tell the maharashtra chief minister wake up guys and smell the coffee Yeah, I mean, you know the fact that it took us so many years to have a proper airport at agra Which is still not being fully used. I mean, what does that say about us 70 years after independence? Let me give credit where it's due kerala is also a product of great enterprise You know, it's a product of great local entrepreneurship You know, it's not a product of five star resorts. It's a product of local entrepreneurs Creating some of the most beautiful most exotic resorts possible And they've been a very the kerala is a product of very vibrant private sector. I don't see that vibrancy in other states Unless and until you don't the private sector must be vibrant live in an energy energy day They must create the products and go and then fight it out. Are you saying up in behar don't have vibrant private entrepreneurs Mr. Ajay Singh has to do that job Okay, yes. Yeah, I would say that I mean is there a north south divide You know, is there a divide within this country east west north south? No, it's not But I think there's some great points brought up here is you have to look at everyone has different motivations And unless we focus on what their motivation is this won't move it'll continue to be rhetoric And so how do you frame it up for the government? How do you frame it up for the private sector? How do you frame it for the public? So for the public we've need to convince them that tourism isn't bad It's not it's not luxury. We're actually creating so you think of it three three aspects it creates jobs That's great. It creates tax revenue tax revenue I mean cancun mexico Mexican government has the biggest place for tax revenue comes out because of all those americans and it creates exports Americans fly in they they buy Mexican goods stay in mexican hotels It creates an export and if you if you can convince and frame that argument up Everybody's now on board and then you now you've got them on board with a motivation Now you've got to create a clean framework because the worry is in india Sorry, the worry is in india. We talked about this before I watch india news There's 15 guys all talking on top of each other at the same time, right? No, I'm not at all And no, no, no, no, no, hold on. Hold on. I I can't be targeted for what I didn't do So that's an outsider one thing I would say is there's not a shortage of ideas in india The shortage is bringing that down to few ideas and executing on them because we can't make everybody happy It's the one that ajay floated an idea that you have 10 special tourism zones in this country I say and put all your energy. You're you're saying five saying five put five. Which would those five be? Sir, actually, uh, I go first. I get my yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you yeah, I say I say jaipur That's one. Yeah, I said the golden triangle. Everyone knows about it in the world What you want to do is in business school They talked about core competencies and then adjacencies to it So in other words start with what you're good at whether your people already know Build on that and then go outside. Jaipur's an easy one. Jaipur's an easy one. Let's look at five What's the places around karnataka because it gets a lot of International tourists as a chip to banglore for work, but they don't necessarily embrace the culture of karnataka It's the most beautiful state. I've driven through humpy cool chikmanglore sakhleshpur gokarna is a fantastic location It trumps. Oh any day show. So there are so many places. I won't agree with that being a goon But I will get gokarna is okay, but it's it's lovely They know that there are lovely, but so you're saying karnataka, okay? So you need a campaign for karnataka. Go ahead. I think I think we should look at the northeast For the reason that you know government but it's so badly connected. It's so badly connected today But you know if you start to develop it There is a huge amount of capital that's available with the government of india ministries like donor You know, you can get that all these guys involved and and start to build There are some incredibly beautiful places would you increase your number of flights to the northeast as a result Because traditionally airlines have been reluctant to go there. No, absolutely in Arunachal Pradesh. I have to take a chopper No, we've we've tripled our flights into into a sam which is we are using gohati as a base And you know, you're completely right Arunachal Tawang. Look at the place I mean, it's more beautiful than swizzle and probably is but it's there is absolutely zero infrastructure There's no connectivity. There is no infrastructure You need to start that's a long-term project. It is a long-term project. Of course, it's a long-term project But at least, you know, it's virgin territory. There's lots of money. Government is really keen to do it I think we need to we can put everybody together. Okay, so we've got northeast karnataka jaipur Let me give you one that you would start with northeast is about Sustainability it's about carrying capacity Uh, we need to be extremely careful about northeast not to convert it into a mass destination We'll destroy it by mass tourism. The state for me is karnataka This is uh, this is the state which has incredible products. It has wildlife It has beaches it has a coastline and it has the greatest heritage sites India has ever seen the most unexplored to go to a gokarna To go to a gokarna, I have to either go to goa and drive down or I have to go to a mangrove possibly and drive down I mean, you know both more than four hours So, I mean you've got to create then those small feeder airports presumably So my my view is that karnataka has the possibility and the potential To be the greatest tourism destination in the world I mean the heritage sites are unbeatable. The beach is beautiful It has backwaters, which only kerala has and it has wildlife and all in close proximity Three hours of each other No other state has the potential to dramatically change its fortunes in the world of travel and tourism as karma And they've just tripled. They've just tripled the tax on small aircraft fuel I think there's actually Let me just open it to uh to the audience and then I'll get your uh to to make more comments on it But I agree with karnataka. It's a state which I have found the most wonderful to travel through Let me open it up to people and and get in comments. Is there a mic that can be given? Yes, just raise your hands and Do introduce yourself Hello, my name is ne. I am a global shiver from amlabad. I come from the first world heritage city of india But living in amlabad. I feel that the destinations The heritage sites the The places where actually to is a tourist they feel like to go Are not taken care of like it's in a very decent past that they have been prepped Because the applications were too made and the first application was rejected because the application was also not your question My question is that when So the government's agenda of the power the quest for the power comes in between the growth of a lot of things Gujarat is I think the best destination In india to cultivate the tourism. There is a coastal line. There is a there is a rastra. There is kach So there's a lot of uh opportunity there. So why this quest for power comes in between Uh, good question. We should ask it to mr. Kahn since his boss was the chief minister of gujarat for 12 years Made a made an effort bringing in amita bachan among others as brand ambassador But it hasn't really worked Because at the end of the day you've got to do much more than just branding as you said the product also needs to match the branding And that hasn't happened in a gujarat. Why not? No, gujarat is a great product. Gujarat has been very well marketed It's done a very good branding campaign and gujarat has enormously gained from that campaign Gujarat has grown enormously. Nobody had heard of gujarat earlier. It's enormously grown as a travel and tourism product It's one of the rare few states in india Which does good marketing and good branding and it has done a lot in terms of improving the quality of experience and ground So you've got to give credit to uh, gujarat for what it has done But I think there's that there's just two states which have an outstanding potential To my mind karnatak and matapadesh These are two states which can be the world beta in tourism And they can they are the enormous potential of creating massive number of jobs through travel and tourism But you know again, then the problem is these are these are both very large states I mean, they are the size, you know, larger than most small european countries Is that part of the problem craig? Do you believe or is that a strength that we have that because we are so large Uh, you know, we we wait for the day, you know, we don't have Small is beautiful the smaller states a switzerland was completely committed to the idea of tourism Here we wait for the next state to do it kerala waits Karnataka, you know waits for kerala to do it. We don't We are not proactive enough because we are simply large and lumbering is that part of the problem I think you're trying to make everybody happy And so I think the government at times is trying to you know, and they're worried about You know, what if this government what if the people appear say you're not you're not thinking about us You have to just start with five And if you start with start with fight and you and you show that they're successful Then other states are gonna want and they have to be states that are friendly and you can say well Is that the you know, do they have to match the the president federal government? Probably not because you've seen in the case that kerala has done very well Kerala needs to be on that list of five go and needs to be on the list of five You don't have to reinvent something you take something that's great and make it bigger So go as a great example of that you get two airports you work and it's not just airports It's infrastructure. It's cutting out the light 180 permits to build one hotel. No in the world. Does that happen and and and we've got to go back and say How do you cut 180 permits to build one hotel and go build one hotel anywhere in India? And so how do you cut that out? Look, think of the time value of money It costs it takes two years to build a hotel in japan and they will tell you the date It's going to open and it opens on that day. It takes us an average of seven years to open a Five-star hotel in India and why that capital sits there unused with no returns for seven years It becomes expensive the risk is high And so there's so much more that needs to be done besides the airports And so we can talk to we're blue in the face about making everybody happy. Let's experiment take five places Let's get more questions. Yes, sir Do you have a mic, please? Yes, thank you. I'm sadeer Is smart city a missed opportunity from tourism perspective or is it still an opportunity? Because smart city is a new project which has come up. So is it in a missed opportunity? Is it still an opportunity? No, I think it's It's too early Infrastructure is getting done So I think we'll have to wait for a while I don't think that people want to visit they want to visit something that's unique In different a city just a city as a city whether it's smart or not really is it different from anywhere else in the world What's your competitive advantage as a country? No one else has the mountains you have the safaris you have you think of what makes you different like like a Like a company. What's your competitive advantage? I think you said No, but we have a Himalayan state like Uttarakhand, which at the moment has only one airport in Deradoo If I want to go to Nainital I have to drive all the way from here I mean, let's you know, let's get real about where we stand at the end of the day You know Himachal Pradesh one beautiful state again I want to go to Lahore Spiti right at the top and experience one of the most unknown parts of the world How do I get there to terrible roads? No, no Rajdeep. You are at your pessimistic best No, because you know, I I'm very clear I'm very clear journalists have to have the glass half empty so that we cannot allow you to get away By constantly telling us all you see when I was in the world of tourism The biggest complaint was that it was impossible to get a visa Visa has been made so simple electronic visa. It's so easy to congratulate and congratulations. Yeah. Yeah, you know, India has made a radical turnaround Sure. E visa somebody's okay. Uh, when I was in tourism give it There were no airports. India has made the finest airports Mumbai Bangalore Hyderabad Delhi all great airports we have now When I was in tourism, there were no hotels India's got the finest hotel. I mean married at 100 hotels all the top hotels we have I think we just need to get a few things right and secondly, let me tell you You're talking about how will speedy you're talking about something The beauty of these destinations is the lack of accessibility I mean the uniqueness. I'm telling you it's very important to understand this You know the uniqueness of some of these products is that don't cramp them with mass tourism You know, it's important. That's an interesting point higher unit value realization. And that's the first point I made Indians are all the time talking 20 million numbers. Don't focus on value. Not the numbers Several destinations across the world have been destroyed by mass tourism Cultures have been invaded and therefore it's very important that whatever we do we do it with sensitivity We do it with sustainability. We focus on value. We focus on high value tourism That's why kerala came across a winner Focus on the upmarket tourism the middle class is always aspirational in character. It will ape the rest Interesting interesting. You put that and you know, let me plug my book Which is kaveh, which is pre-ordered today on amazon since you mentioned about how india has changed You know the australian it's called democracies 11 and the australian cricketers who came to india in 1958-59 wanted to walk out of a kanpur hotel Because they said that the mosquito net was Had holes in it and one of their players was bitten by a mosquito and they refused to play that they almost refused to play The test match in 59. I don't think that'll ever happen again But don't worry. I'll buy your book irrespective of your plug. Wonderful But it's a it's out today It's out today pre-ordered on amazon. But look the point made there this whole idea of mass tourism Goa is a good example many goans feel that their culture is being destroyed by tourists coming in At the same time, there's pressure on jobs to provide young joan goans job Because apart from mining goa has very little else and mining is now caught in an entire environmental debate So how far do you go with tourism? Do you believe that's a debate worth having that you need to keep certain parts of the country inaccessible And the inaccessibility increases the attractiveness of the himalayan Towns for example I'm not sure whether the answer is to keep it inaccessible because the example that he mentioned Also, kerala has continued to retain its culture in traditions. In fact, bought that back to the forefront And that may a tourism actually verge on and flourish there So how do you bring about that model and other parts as well? I mean, absolutely right northeast is a fantastic virgin tetry Means almost 70 to 80 percent is under forest coverage Only one national park is known by most people which is kaze ranga. There are 16 more right, so Is the answer that lock it down do not let anybody know Very few people who'd come to know will you know go and would you drive it through domestic tourism? Would you drive a place like northeast is initially through domestic tourism? Create a buzz around it and then get the foreign tourists to come in Absolutely because what you talked about the go hearty airport in opening up when you saw the bangler to go hearty flight These are the direct flights immediate spike in demand To actually go to asim because that was the gateway to access the less of northeast I mean, it's a given that to access the rest of the north you have to travel by road and Actually, your cab transportation is going to be more expensive than stays there You stay at places which are 100,000 bucks. That's the only stay infrastructure that is there So what's the difficulty? Where where's the roadblock? For example in dealing with this Is it that you have actually seven state governments that you've got to work with Is it has the time come in a sense? At least when it comes to tourism to have maybe a unified Tourism council for the northeast where all these sort of seven states perhaps work together And that could you know apply to other parts of the country as you talk of these special tourism zones No, I think you know, we should just stop talking about this and start doing something We should pick these five places 10 places Find a local champion in a state chief minister and make sure that that you know, we execute in a time bound manner A specific plan. Have you seen any state chief minister who has Emerged as this kind of a champion for local tourism in all these years Someone who has embraced the idea and really taken it to another level I'm trying to think of any one individual. Yes, we get all these full page ads In papers from time to time, but I haven't seen anyone who's made tourism his number one agenda I think that's a failure of of the private sector in part. We have not been able to make the case, right? Every time you speak to a chief minister and you speak about connectivity about airports about tourism There's there is a great deal of interest. I think you need to to Ensure that that interest gets converted into a real plan of action and pick the five most enthusiastic guys And just go and do it in their states I'm just wondering whether the smaller states in a way are better equipped to do that Because you know, you the larger states have far too many Competing pools and pressures. It's the small states that we need. So you mentioned Madhya Pradesh The fact is this is a huge large state You know tough to get the great products great products But I'm just wondering whether micro management is a better way Is that the global experience that you've had great that the smaller countries? You know, I'm looking at Spain's figures for example remarkable figures of how Spain has grown Portugal Is growing now remarkably as a safe destination of Europe Croatia The smaller countries seem to be far more effective than the lumbering elephants if I may call it Yeah, I wouldn't say it's it's small or large I just think it's it's the countries that the government puts tourism as a priority And see it sees it as a way to create jobs and to and to move people Through the social economic mobility ladder I mean, it's a it's a chance for people to come in and be trained as a housekeeper Eventually become a house could be a manager and kind of move up and in their wealth in the same way I mean, it they see it as an export. They're out promoting it and you don't it's not just a tagline It can't just be marketing for a country. It's got to be something that's carried all the way through And it's got to be something that you make easy. So I'll give you an example We we dealt and we were dealing with Colombia Colombia has a kind of like an invest Colombia arm They went and they walked side by side by investors on building hotels They cut the time the amount of time that I think I cut it down to 25 of what it was before To build a hotel because of permits they walked you all the way through it Because the the government themselves says listen, we're not just going to talk about this We're going to actually execute it and make sure that it and that's not happening yet You still have the 183 permits 180 and what happened to the prime minister? Sorry to sound pessimistic again. What happened to ease of ease of doing business? But that isn't just on the federal level. That's the city state That's everybody sure jumping in and it doesn't save the country It doesn't save the country what it creates is more opportunity for people to do things that are wrong Ask for money. That's why it slows the whole process down What happened to ease of doing business? Mr. Karthik. Let me I mean Don't simplify it to this. He's got 183 permits. I think we must get this right You see construction of any issue in India in municipal areas is a Construction is a has been a complex issue for long in India Uh simply because municipalities Take a long time. It's it's written with corruptions. And I think we need to get it's not just with hotels It's including building your own house This is a very very complex issue and The attempt by the ministry of urban development has been to put everything online Ensure that you get it within defined time frames And I think a lot of work has been done on that And I think we need to get that hotels right but I think there's another issue in hotels and that is That the size and scale of hotels in India especially in urban municipal areas If you go to Singapore for instance, uh, they There's no hotel with less than 500 rooms So the ability to give higher fars and to hotels and fsi is Enormous. I mean they believe that you can go you must go vertical Even in limited space. You must go vertical build much more so that you can you know becomes a viable commercial proposition And for hospitality purposes, they provide a higher far And I think in urban areas we need to do that and consciously do that because You know, you may not be able to provide land free of cost which in many Places it may be required because hospitality has a multiplier impact But allow higher far and fsi to move up But I wanted to come back to I wanted to just come back to the northeast In my mind, you know to my mind, it's it's one of India's unique products and it's very important That we focus on you want to create a tourism product for go back to its roots Focus on its local culture Focus on its local cuisine Focus on its local art forms and it's not a thousand rupee destination It's a thousand dollar per night destination Nowhere in the world. Do you have a product like northeast? It'll get you a thousand dollars as long as driven by foreign tourists. You're saying not the design by domestic tourism Go for because because this is a big challenge in go for example, increasingly. It's the charters that come in It's it's become so instead of raising the bar go has now become about lowering the box My whole experience has been about making Kerala move away from charters From low value to high value destination It's important that we understand that northeast is about its uniqueness and therefore Please for god's sake don't convert Northeast into a mass tourism destination. It has limited carrying capacity It has the possibility of great sustainability It has character and culture which can get you a thousand dollars a night And that's the only way northeast must grow and expand. Okay. Let me get in. Is there any more? Is there another question from anyone? Yes, ma'am Why don't you take the mic? Hi, I am Aditi. I think Vishnu can answer my question. I think Rajdeep touched it upon a little That is the debate of whether the locals are ready to have tourists at their places Because I was recently in Puducherry and I am really sorry to say that I did not feel welcomed at all Yeah, so that's very strange that is and It was very different than what I read on the internet So when we are talking of getting into the remote areas Are the locals really ready because I feel that it might damage their cultures their traditions a little So maybe how do you deal with it is my question so This problem is present in paramount. It's again referring to the Kerala example That's the state which has the maximum number of homestays Unfortunately, the rest of the nation has not Embiped lessons from Kerala and brought up great homestays with fantastic Engaging host who will make you feel welcome into their homes. So that's some basic level of etiquette training How do you deal with travelers? How do you communicate with them? You know be able to speak in English or whatever language that the tourist is comfortable in So literacy has made a huge difference in the context of Kerala Which which perhaps is is another reason why UP, Bihar and and parts of North India got left behind in the tourism sector It's truly embrace the An oddity. They will have a Concept as well because from a host perspective. They'll go out of the way to They'll go out of their way to make sure that the guest is feeling comfortable You know, we just have a couple of minutes. So I'll give you final comments If there was one big change that you'd like to see come tomorrow Which you believe will be the kind of Which will dramatically transform tourism and travel. What would that be? I think that there needs to be a mindset change You have to stop thinking in socialistic terms You have to look upon connectivity aviation tourism as force multipliers And you have to stop talking and get cracking with some real action You know, that's of course the the perennial challenge in this country Craig if there's one thing that you'd like to see happen tomorrow I would have said what he said, but I would say today is cut red tape cut it half make it a go If it takes so many permits to do anything Make it a go like I didn't have do you still have to come to Delhi more More often than you would like even if you're building in a state or as the has power completely shifted to state cap No, it's not it's not all it's it's not it's it's every level. It's municipal governments It's everybody, but the problem is it's just become it's so it's so complicated There's probably the two most I've lived in 13 countries. I've worked in over 60 And the two countries that always come to mind for the Is India and Brazil were the ones that became the most socialist of countries But they became there's it's the hardest place to do business. There's so many and it doesn't keep corruption out It actually creates more corruption. Okay, so cut the red tape. It's a very quickly Discuss the soldier is ruin on a few locations maybe five locations and refresh brand India Utilizing products from those destinations. Okay, great. We've got one big idea Suddenly five destinations is what we are looking at. I'm going to give you the final word I mean, when you go back tomorrow to the this afternoon to the Niti Ayog Office, would you make a phone call to a fellow care into a care light? Mr. Alphonse and what would you tell him? What would you tell the tourism minister of India? If there's one a piece of advice you want to give him today? We just focus on five states five circuits five destinations make them world-class and then Go massively for incredible India 2.0 because India is badly under marketed Underpromoted but create the product create great world-class product and then do this brand marketing Wonderful. That's a great way to end this morning because we're going to look at this We're looking for the big five. You've got to identify those five and then just Relentlessly focus on them. Give them all a very big hand. We've had a wonderful morning discussing travel and tourism. Thanks Great