 you've joined us for asking an answer. It's a really a special day. It's Friday, but it's a day that we get partnered up with one of the great minds from Fundraising Academy that's based at National University. You can send in, you can call, you can tweet. I mean you can do all sorts of things to get your questions answered with this conversational approach. Every week questions are different. Sometimes we see the same questions frankly coming in you know over time, maybe voiced a little differently, but today we have Tony Bell and again really one of the great minds that works with the university and also works with other programming and so it's really a joy to be able to get him and have him be here. So Tony are you ready my friend? I am ready, yeah I'm ready, yes let's do it. Awesome, awesome. Well I need to like get myself situated here because obviously I'm like a little off-kilter because I've been chit-chatting with you. No it's all good, well you know it's it's Friday and it's close to the weekend. There's my mug so it's close to Friday and the weekend. I love it. And I'm sure we're going to celebrate sponsors. There we go. Thank you I think you could run the show. Again Tony's got me all choked up. Tony we have amazing partners. The Academy at National University is one of them but we also have Bloomerang, American nonprofit academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit thought leader, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk and they're with us literally day in and day out and they don't ask us to cover anything or not cover anything. They give us total editorial license which is remarkable so we are grateful for that and we know how powerful these commitments are that that these organizations have have made with us. Again more than 900 app episodes which has actually turned my hair white Tony. You can download the app you can find us on streaming platforms as well as podcast platforms and we will be with you wherever you are whenever you need us so it's really an opportunity for us to connect with you and help you solve the problems that you have. Okay this is an interesting question because this came to us from an actual board in Palo Alto and the question is this our CEO is retiring and we have not yet replaced them. Our question is this should we hire a professional interim CEO or have a board member step in for a period of time? It's a very common situation. Oh we have to get someone from the board. Yeah no it's a great question and I have to just kind of get the vision out of my head first of of a board member making a motion to send a question into a nonprofit show and then a board member seconding the motion and then the 40 minutes it took them to come to consensus on the question that they would submit so I just had to kind of get the vision out of my head but I love that the question is collective you know 10 years ago 15 years ago this wouldn't have even been a question because the consideration of an interim CEO would have not even been part of the conversation so I love that they're thinking that way. My recommendation is to lean into if your budget allows which I would assume you know if you budgeted for the CEO and there's a period of time they're not there there's still the salary that was budgeted that you could probably invest in an interim CEO so I totally support investing in an interim CEO I think you get a lot of you know a lot of knowledge along with that individual you get a fresh perspective even during that short period of time but I also would say that make sure you're very mindful around the expectations of the interim CEO that they understand their level of empowerment during the time that they're serving I've served in a lot of interim capacities within my current organization and and externally you know historically and so it's always been important for me to really understand you know what the expectation is and the level of empowerment my approach with interim roles is to keep the train moving forward and and not to try and change the tracks that it's running on or to you know change it from from you know diesel to coal or whatever that might be really in my my take on serving interim roles has always been keep the train moving and keep it on its tracks because if you make too many changes in an interim you're setting up the current staff and potentially the organization for too much change as the permanent CEO comes in and kind of wants to paint their picture so so yes interim CEO all the way just be really clear about the expectation and the level of empowerment and I would caution the amount of change you would want that interim CEO to make knowing that a permanent leader is going to come in and they will see things through their lens so let me add another question onto this and that is you know we keep talking about this dearth of talent because we have an aging leadership you know demographic we have a lot of people that are a little hog tied to the to the the nonprofit sector because of finances and maybe they're like wow because there's the more opportunities to get you know higher wages in the for-profit sector having said that how long should we we realistically think that we're going to need an interim director that's a really good question and it has a lot to do with the level of you know depending on the CEO right what is what is the the area in which they're serving so there's a certain level of expertise that may exist with you know within that in terms of what the job description looks like and and the skills and expertise of the candidate I would say a minimum six months you may yes I would say a minimum six month interim CEO when you think about again just the the the recruiting process you know your yes just the recruiting the interviewing if they're with the current employer you want to make sure that they can give them the appropriate amount of notice I would I would say six months at a minimum well that's good to know because you know when when I first read this question I thought to myself this board has no idea how hard it would be to take a volunteer position you know just step in and say yeah we can hold things together because it's not that simple and an interim is you know traditionally educated they they have a process you know they can I love you said keep the train on the tracks very interesting very interesting well that was good are you ready for the next one I am I don't know you did so well there's a lot of pressure I felt like I talked too much but yeah let's go for it no that's those it's fascinating and I got to say Tony I think a lot of organizations right now in America are looking at the same same situation yeah I think such it yeah I really do okay Charlie from San Antonio Texas writes we run a human services shelter and are considering having volunteers sign in NDA non-disclosure agreement form before they start their service do you think this will keep volunteers away interesting question never had this asked before it is an interesting question so there's so there are a lot of things that initially come to mind with with this particular question and one of those is why now so what is the why what is the why around yeah implementing the NDA at this moment in time maybe there's something that's changed in their programming that now requires them to maybe they're offering volunteer opportunities that have closer connectivity to the clients that they serve so my the first thing is to really ask yourself why why are we doing this now and I'm making assumption right they said we're considering so historically they've not done this so why now that's interesting you know I and I think that volunteers that are passionate about a mission and want to contribute in that capacity aren't going to have a problem signing an NDA again as long as there is a good understanding of the why and think about ways that you can make this really easy for the volunteer so most organizations have a volunteer application so you know by signing this application you agree to the non-disclosure agreement of you know versus having them sign five different you know documents so I think there are ways to integrate this logistically where it's not a burden to your volunteer application or your volunteer onboarding and I definitely support anything that might minimize liability for the organization so you know if this all started through the lens of how are we going to minimize liability I really you know appreciate and celebrate that they're having that conversation also yeah you know I remember signing an NDA privacy agreement probably like oh my gosh close to 30 years ago and for a domestic violence campus and I was like well why why do you do this and they're like well we keep our address you know private and silent because abusers will come and try and kill their you know their women and children and I was like what I mean so you know it ended up being a teaching moment for me because I had no idea I really didn't I didn't know and it was beginning of my journey for you know learning but I think to your point you can use it as a as a an onboarding situation you know as possible if possible and I think there's a reality of you know risk so if you're you know dealing with a HIPAA issue which is medical or you're dealing with children or minors you you have these compliance things that you must abide by so I think it's a you know yeah and I really appreciate what you said why now that's a that's a heavy that's a heavy question you know so yeah that's smart okay well let's go to name withheld and I know you love those these are my favorites my favorites okay I had a call from a large donor recently who asked me about another nonprofit they're thinking about donating to while I was honored that they can that they think I can offer some perspective I think this might be a conflict of interest how should I handle this we've gotten this type of a question before and it has to do with like professionalism and and knowing the sector and yet I think in at the heart of it we're like we don't want to lose a donor to somebody else that we compete with or you know so this question to me has a lot going on and I don't know what do you think about this yeah so the first thing that I would tell name withheld is take the flowers and celebrate like you're saying the fact that this this donor you know trust you ask you this says a lot a lot a lot a lot about the relationship that this individual has with this I'll say major donor as opposed to large donor but you know with this major donor so I think you have an opportunity one to celebrate that right take a moment and say wow they trust me enough and then I think you have an opportunity to take that trust even deeper with the donor by having having the conversation with them and the way that I would approach the conversation is I think it's wonderful that you want to expand your philanthropic footprint you're not moving your footprint but you're expanding your your footprint great and and and I would and and I would encourage you or maybe you would say you know think about what are the things that make you feel really good about contributing to my organization when you donate to my organization how does that make you feel and and how fulfilled are you in that and look for the same qualities that you like about our organization in this organization so that that's that's up top of my head I think that's how I would kind of frame that I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't walk away from the opportunity to deepen their trust in you and and and folks that are truly committed to the nonprofit sector and truly committed to elevating the sector we're not going to prevent donors from moving to other places as long as they're still contributing I would never be afraid of losing a donor if they asked me that question because I would celebrate the fact that they want to expand their philanthropic footprint and I would ask them to think about all of the ways in which they benefit or feel good about their contributions to us and does that organization mirror that experience I love that attitude because I didn't I didn't come to it this way in in your direction I think my I was fearful you know I'm like oh my god you know name withheld's gonna lose and that's the scarcity mentality I hate that about myself I I know that that exists and but I really love what you had to say about you know philanthropic leadership and trust because we've been talking about that a lot Tony just in the general sense that we need to move our funders to this sense of philanthropic trust we're gonna let you organization invest this this donation because you know best and we trust you and so we need to have those conversations you know all along so that's cool I like the way that you said that I love take the flowers really it says that question said a lot to me around again the I said it a lot around the level of trust that that donor has that they want that kind of advice about how to invest more philanthropic dollars and you know I gotta believe too that it would help that person inform themselves and their team about like what went on like what was the donor asking what were they thinking like you know it gives you almost an insight that maybe you wouldn't have yeah very true very interesting okay well let that was that was a really really interesting it was a good question yeah really fascinating okay this next question comes to us from I know I don't know if this is seen or Sean I don't know sorry Sean probably you think it's Sean Sean from Philadelphia PA what is the average size of a board of directors it seems that we are always in a struggle to fill our board of director seats yep you probably are also do we need to reflect a change in our number of board seats somewhere such as bylaws or other legal documents I just I must be I must be in a certain mood Julia because it's like what is the average size of a board of directors I'm like I don't know five eight and a hundred eighty pounds I mean yeah so I mean this is an excellent question and I always like to reference awesome resources within the sector right so board source right is it's an incredible organization with incredible resources yeah around board development yeah you know and they may actually have an activity that would help you identify for your organization what really is the best size because it's going to depend on are you a grassroots organization so do you need a board that's more hands-on and that is actively out there like even even leading the programming right do you need a board that's more advisory right you've got the staff you've got the talent and the skills so you need a board that's going to help you with the vision setting the direction of the organization and opening doors for your your fundraising team so there are all of those variables considering all of that I typically say 9 to 13 is what you know if you were to ask me what is the average size of a board of directors just based on my experience and the type of organizations that I have always worked with it's been around 9 to 13 now I can tell you that a local Chamber of Commerce here I think there's 35 board members right and and so depending you know a lot of the nonprofits that are kind of economic engines for our communities they typically have larger you know like 25 to 40 people on on their boards more grassroots organizations that are serving very specific populations of the community typically have that 9 to 13 nonprofits that are just starting they usually start with the minimum which is typically 3 right to get your articles of incorporation in most states you have to have a minimum of 3 board members so and then they aspire to get to that place where they're you know at a minimum of 9 so I would say 9 to 13 and yes your bylaws absolutely have to reflect the number of board members and your your bylaws can can show a range so again your your bylaws may say that you know the board will be populated with a you know anywhere from 3 to 13 or anywhere from 9 to 13 board members for me the biggest part of that and I like that you use that idea of of range because the biggest thing for me is you have to define what quorum is because if you don't define voting quorum your board is actually not fiduciary a fiduciary infiduciary compliance right because some of those votes that they take might not actually be able to be recorded right so you have to know what the quorum is and if you can take digital you know voting if you can do voting by phone voting by email I mean there there's a whole strategy in there that goes beyond just warm bodies right and what they're gonna do and how they're gonna do it you know I feel like a lot of folks get hung up on this number that they need to have and they don't really look at what the composition is oh for sure you know because there's the other kind of underlying part of this question where it says we are always in a struggle yeah to fill our open board seats so there's there's definitely things to take a look at there and and whether it's your process for prospecting with whether it's your succession planning process or lack of succession planning if it's the the qualifying of board members the on boarding of board members the experience once they're on the board right there's all of those things that they need to be considered if there are certain barriers to folks wanting to serve or or even to their success in serving yeah you know that's a deeper dive and and I think you're right that's a that's a systemic issue and in question well while we're on the board discussion let's talk with another name withheld from Columbus Ohio and and they write well I know that the CEO reports to the board of directors who does their annual review the CEO's review we have not done one and as the board chair I think I need to lead this however I don't feel qualified to do this is a CEO review done by the entire board a committee help interesting question because I've been a part of this and it was it was an executive committee function because it's a little more private and the way we did it was we're gonna do the review if you have any questions or comments submit them to the board chair that will get reviewed and then it will be done with the executive committee which was still like nine people so it wasn't like you know we'll do it over coffee I mean it was kind of like dum dum dum dum you know it was stressful right yeah no exactly so a couple of things here and and so name withheld the the communication or administration of the performance review should be between the board chair and the CEO it should not be in my recommendation in my experience it should not be a panel that delivers the you know the the annual review it really should be the board chair to the CEO a lot of my experience to Julia similar to yours where it's been the executive committee of the board that have done that but like you said that can even be too much so you may want to put together a special you know work group or a special committee of just three people the board chair and maybe two others to work on the annual review to help the process and minimize the amount of time investment in the committee you know definitely make sure that you're providing a the CEO an opportunity for a self-appraisal so make sure yeah I mean I think it's really really really important that the CEO have an opportunity for a self-appraisal and then the that committee should review the self-appraisal and then draft the overall appraisal that or review that'll be delivered to the CEO because we as as the year passes if if the chair I mean they would need to go back and review all of the minutes or CEO reports to kind of remember everything that happened yeah so that information that comes in not just the CEO but any performance review process or in annual review process is is richer when the team member has an opportunity to submit their self-review I love that because I think the other part of that is that you know a board is not there every day so they're not going to necessarily see everything and so that's cool that's a that's like a yeah that's a huge takeaway well Tony Bell you always give me a huge take away with these times that we get to spend with you on you always have something amazing to say Tony Bell Senior Director National University Academy's Relationship Center Fundraising Academy at National University I can't say enough about them their team and their trainers are just amazing the content is free there's just so many ways to engage with the content and so check out fundraising-academy.org and then you can go into their learning portal and it's just remarkable so Tony thank you for for joining us and being such a light of wisdom in our sector we really really appreciate it well thank you go ahead no I just thank you for the opportunity I mean I'm so honored to represent the Fundraising Academy and and National University and you make it easy Julia you bring out the best in all of us so thank you again well it's a lot of fun it really is and we have fun every day on the non-profit show with our amazing executive partners they include Blumerang American Non-profit Academy love that coffee mug your part-time controller nonprofit thought leader of course Fundraising Academy at National University staffing boutique non-profit nerd and non-profit tech talk Tony you know more than 900 episodes I've ended every show with this mantra it means and I know it's hokey but it means something different almost every single day and so I know you've had a rough road in the past couple months and so I'm saying this to you directly my friend to stay well so you can do well we'll see you back here soon have a restful weekend take good care thanks bye