 I can start by talking a little about myself because then you can give you time to do that because you know Everybody talks about themselves. So go ahead. So I am a grants person and I always have been I've Certainly done some Typical fundraising as you all think about it in terms of you know Individual donors and major donors and events and that gala is that kind of thing? But for over 40 years my whole background has really been in grants and so in that I work I did primarily my grants were for social services youth and family services organizations But I've trained I became a trainer for the Grantsmanship Center, which is in Los Angeles for I've been a trainer with them for 20 years and I've trained people all over the country Just United States and in other countries. I'm starting to do some outreach into Canada and Webinars in Canada and that sort of thing, but I've trained in Ukraine in Ireland and Puerto Rico and so forth I've reviewed I've been a grants reviewer for the US federal government. I've written two books One is a how-to book about how to write grant proposals. The other is you have a hammer Building grant proposals for social change and that's what I want to talk about today So my grants background is so oh, I write regularly for the nonprofit times I've written tons of articles for publication. So I don't know just anything to do with grants. I've pretty much done it And right now I've retired from the Grantsmanship Center I was head of all of their curriculum development and training and training their trainers to train and now I am Just doing my own consulting work and writing and so forth and so that's where I am but I Sandra got in touch with me originally Related to my new book you have a hammer and I wanted to tell you a little bit first about why I wrote it After having trained Thousands of people and I'm not exaggerating over the last 20 years I saw some really common misperceptions and mistakes that Limit the changemaking power of grants work So I Started it's just a little book this this book of mine hammer. I call it. I started just collecting those Misperceptions and writing little snippets about how you needed to rethink it or reframe your thinking about this work in terms of some of these issues that I see and That became the book And so the point of it is that I'm hoping that people who were either Currently involved in grant work grants work will make sure they're thinking about the work right before they're you know Go and do more grants work and for people just getting into the field. I'm really hoping that you'll Maybe read the book and think about the issues I raised before you start seeking grant funding so one of the first issues I find in most organizations is That grants work the person who writes the grant proposals and so forth They're usually like the stepchild within the fund development or of the organization So you'll have people who are doing major donors or major events or annual giving and so forth And they're all talking and collaborating and working with the ED and the board and off to the side somewhere is a grants person and A lot of time that grants person is given instructions to just say go get some grant money instead of Having those instructions to be really thoughtful To be integrated into the strategic plan thoughtful in terms of what is the best use for grants money I Want to promote that that change because There's a perception That within the field of philanthropy That individual giving greatly Is greatly higher is a lot more money than grants But I'm going to challenge that because that Statistic that you see constantly at least in the states and I think you see it some in Canada as well Does not include government grants and government grants have traditionally Been offered for the common good to support the common good I mean here in the states and I know in Canada as well The governments especially the provincial governments in Canada do funding for Youth and family services Environment food insecurity mean you name it and so even though you may not be able to define that money as Philanthropic in that an individual did not say let me give you this a lot of times that money is public money obviously because it comes through public sources via Taxation or fees and levies or however So if you add in government money Grants are actually a lot more than what you get the money available through individual giving Now that said we all have to recognize That individual giving is flexible and growable You know you can target it to what you need when you need it where it's grant funding is generally Restricted to certain purposes, you know unless you go to a very a Foundation that has sort of an open door in terms of what it's willing to fund or corporation But grant funding is generally short term is generally Target to a specific issue area. It's not as it is not as flexible or growable as individual giving so What really needs to happen if we want to use our grant funding to make change is we need to first of all Elevate the grants acquisition function within our organizations up So that it is integrated fully into the fund development Function of the organization so that it interacts with strategic planning with budget planning So that all these junctures where you're looking at what money do we need in order to pursue our mission? You're you're you're getting all of these different perspectives at the table and saying within this context What is a good role? for grants funding So then when you do that you you'll come away with grants having a very specific Function towards Perpelling the mission forward towards, you know achieving the strategic plan or or so forth So so first of all one of the things that really limits the change-making power grants Is when you put that function within your organization off in a corner? Because I guarantee you lots of people who write proposals their instructions from their Supervisors or eds are go get money. I mean that's kind of it You need some money you need some grants go find some money. We don't have enough money go get some grants So that limits the change-making power of grants and it It limits the rightful Role that a grants professional should play within the organization. So that's a big one I see some of you kind of not in your head at least I can see three of you here So, I mean, I think this is resonating that this this is the case I mean I used to say that you know when I was doing heavy-duty grants work like sometimes two federal proposals at once I mean I might have on a shirt that was held together with the safety pin Well, somebody else's and he's going off to the gala, you know, and it's sort of like this dichotomy of Respect for the different fund development functions, and I'd like to see those integrated Another thing that's a huge Problem with the thousands of people I've trained is that people don't tend to truly understand What a grant request is and what a grant award is because if I said to you what is a grant request everybody go Well, that's really silly. I know you fill out an application you answer some questions and you're asking for money That's a grants request But what I say to you is that it's actually a lot more than that If you base your grant request and On community need and let community need drive What it is that you seek money for? Then it's much more than just a request for money What it is it it's really is a kind of advocacy Because you know very seldom will you find you ever put out a grant request where you're the only one involved usually you've got some other Volunteers involved or other organizations involved somehow. So you're all coming together To advocate For something to happen in your community that that's something could be That you're going to try to mitigate a problem It could be that you're going to try to see some opportunity that the that the needs to happen in the community to elevate the quality of life. But whatever it is You are coming together and your grant proposal is saying this thing needs to change. And so your proposal is actually an argument for change Because there's no grant proposal you will ever write that is not an argument for change So example you could say well Barbara. What about general operating support? Well, if your organization is Pursuing its mission effectively You're probably got some outcome data that shows you are making a difference If you are making a difference that means you're producing positive change And then if you're asking for ongoing operating support, you're saying please help us keep this change going this change matters so an Operating proposal is not please support the jobs at my organization Please help me get keep the doors open the operating Proposal is actually an argument that says please help us keep this important change Going help us to sustain this change. So a proposal is also It it's also a Proposal for partnership because every funder you're ever going to reach out to wants to accomplish certain things and So you're saying to the funder boy, have I got something that we could work on together Be a partner with me in accomplishing this change. So it's a financial plan It's a legal agreement, but mostly it's advocacy a request for partnership and the money is involved in the transaction Absolutely, but if you let the money be the purpose of the transaction you are losing the power of that tool To make the change that you want to make and I keep using the word change because if you were involved in any sort of organization, whether it's environmental social services health of food Animal welfare Whatever it is Those are the that is the issue whatever issue you're concerned about That's the deal the money is the tool a means to an end The end is always the outcome. So If you go into grants work thinking grants are to get money You're gonna lose a lot of the power of the work and you're not gonna get as much money I mean it kind of goes hand in hand. So in other words, it's not some pine the sky sort of high Philosophy here if you do this work in this way You're gonna be more attractive to funders because you're not running out chasing the money You are in fact running out chasing the public good in some way in whatever Variety of way you happen to be pursuing it and so in likewise a grant award is Money, right, but it's not what it's about Basically, it's an investment the funders saying we whether we're a government agency a corporate Ration or a foundation We have a certain amount of money that we're going to use to accomplish certain things we've defined and so We're going to invest this money in this organization Because they they seem as though they're really going to be able to make this change So it's a social investment. It's where they they parse out their money to get things to happen So it's a way the money is just a way that they pursue their own mission by investing in your mission So obviously you got a you know apply for things that really match up with your mission. That's one of the premier Understandings of being able to do grants work. So when a funder gives you money, they're basically betting on you I mean, they're betting that you can do what it is you said you would do in that grant proposal So it's a number of things and it's not just about the money So one of the Once you've come at it from understanding, you know Take a role within your organization if you're doing grants work to advocate that you're at that planning table That if somebody says go get the money you say For what purpose, you know, what's our so forth? Another real problem is Definition of why you're seeking grant funding. I mean every every funder is going to say to you Why do you want to grant and I'll tell you people call me and they say Barbara Have you got a few minutes to tell me how to get grants and I go, oh, no, this is not going to go Well, and I say okay Why do you need grants because we need money What do you need the money for we just need it because we don't have enough of it You know that that's a lot of the discussion you hear but in almost every grant proposal you ever write The question is why do you need the money and they may call it? What's the problem? What's the need? What's the situation? Whatever they call it. Don't get hung up on their terminology. They're asking you What is propelling you? What is compelling you to make this grant request? so I Defined that as I call it the problem, but I know it may be an opportunity I just call it the problem because you got to have one word to use But I I call a problem something that causes harm threatens harm is less than ideal or Is an opportunity to be see so it's the whole spectrum and so you have to Look out into the community and say what needs to happen So an example of being Driven by what you see needs to happen in the community as opposed to Running out and trying to just get money is for example I'm going to give you an example in my own life about a transitional living program for young men who returning to the community from jail So I was driving home one night And I heard on the radio that something like one in five young men in this certain community under the ages of under age of 21 was involved with the do with the justice system and Was in jail and coming back to the community on probation and I thought this is just not right Something's got to change so then I learned that There was nothing to support these young people coming back into the community So it became a revolving door you all probably know of this this issue in your own communities. So it took probably four years of Planning without any money to do planning just kind of fitting it in and talking to people and pulling people together and having meetings And after four years, we were ready to put in a proposal for a planning grant And after we got the planning grant which escalated our ability to work on this Finally in year five, we were ready to put in a proposal for a startup grant to get some transitional living Services into the community for these young people So we didn't say oh, there's a grant opportunity. What can we do with it? We said There's a problem. How are we going to solve it? Where do grants fit? Where do partnerships with other organizations fit? Where the individual donations fit so it becomes a very integrated thing. So in that situation the problem was that young people who Were in the justice system in jail and who came back from jail I Typically went back to jail again violated parole went back to jail again. Their life fell apart It mattered because it it had a very high cost of society in a tremendous horrible cost to the individuals themselves and Why was it happening? It was happening because there weren't there were no supports at all The young people were coming back into the same situation they left without any supports So with every problem that you define you have to be able to say here's a situation that concerns me Here is why it matters and here's why it's happening Unfortunately the typical argument would be To the funder the problem is there's not a transitional living home for young men coming out of jail So in other words typically I Proposal writers Say that the problem is the lack of the program they want to implement and That sets up a very circular argument. It does if you were to say to me The problem is that there is no transitional living program for young men coming out of jail I would say to you, why do you think you need one? Are there are there young men coming out of jail? Yes, how many? Is are they getting in trouble? Yes, they are. Why does that matter in other words? So let's let's play that out a little Here's a really hard one, but it's a true one Here in the States, I don't know about Canada There's not enough affordable housing and that results in a lot of problems But if you were to tell me if I was a funder and you were to tell me the problem is there's not enough affordable housing I wouldn't accept that. I'd say to you What makes you think that? What is it in your community? What's the situation in your community that indicates to you That there is a lack of affordable housing and that that matters so in other words I'd want to hear about families paying more than X percent of their income for rent Families who were housed in unsafe unsanitary situations Who were homeless people who were homeless because you know some sort of indication of how? Affordable the lack of affordable housing played into that so the lack of affordable housing the lack of it The lack of whatever program it is you wish to implement Could certainly be one of the causes or the cause of a problem, but it's not the problem itself So if you say the problems, there's not a tutoring program in our high school then I would say our Why do you think that's a problem? Are there people who need to be tutored? Why do you know that? So one of the really big problems is setting up this nonsensical argument where you say this is typical The problem is there's not a teen center in our community So what we'll do is we will establish a teen center and we'll measure the outcome to say how many teens are going to the teen center Well, why does that even matter? Why do you think you need a teen center? What situation in your community is that? method responding to so think for a minute about the different arguments that you make when you're Writing a grant proposal and if you hear yourself saying the problem What is motivating me to submit this proposal is that there is a lack of this or that program then jump back and Ask yourself Why do I think that? What are the indicators in my service area in my community among my population that are telling me that This program I want to implement is important And we can talk more about that certainly if you Want to I want to I'm just looking at a few notes here. I want to go on to what I think is another problem But but the notion there just to summarize is you can't in terms of making change You can't propose a logical argument for change Which is what a grant proposal is unless you know what the problem is what it is you're trying to change So you got to go all the way back to why do I think we need this program? Now when it comes to grants everybody's very familiar with the word collaboration and funders often require collaboration, but one thing that really limits the change-making power of grants is Not accepting as an organization the imperative of Collaboration so collaboration don't do it Because the funder wants to see it. Yeah, the funder may want to see it, but that's not the reason to do it We exist within an ecosystem Every service that you want to provide or thing that you do in the community or in your service area exists within an ecosystem and so there really some overlaps like a lot of organizations or Groups out there working their interest in missions are going to overlap with your interest in missions And so you can't be nearly as successful in Making change happen unless you interact with them and you all look at the same You you narrow down to where you all intersect and say how can we work on this together? so obviously a Couple of real obvious examples one would be Homelessness So why why is there homelessness? What are the causes? Well a lot of people are concerned about it. Well, let's see drug addiction mental health problems domestic violence lack of affordable housing I Mean there's more I can't think of them up. There's just a lot and so no one organization does all of that so if you are Concerned about homelessness You've got to be involved with all those other groups that are working on it through the drug abuse angle through the mental health Angle through the housing angle because if you're not you're not going to be as effective and The problem you're all concerned about that little center where you all connect is not really going to get effectively addressed I Was training in Montana and there was a man in my class who was from a state agency and He is very concerned because there was an evasive weed That was just taking over parts of the state and If animals would walk through the week, you know, the seeds would get on their fur People would walk through this we the seeds would get on their pants and so it was spreading very easily So he wanted to write a grant proposal. He was there because he was concerned about the weed and its effect on the Ecology of the area and it also had an economic impact. So he wanted to get funding to contain the weed And so the very first question I asked him is does that weed stop at the state line? And he said no So, let me just ask you if you're really talking about making change and you want to get rid of this weed even if you Are and you step over the state line and it's not been eradicated. What good is that going to do? So what I said to him if you're serious about making change You've got to reach out to the other states Give the area affected by this we bring it all together and go for a proposal together for a coordinated approach to eradicate the weed That that's a very clear example But try to apply that thinking to what it is you do in your community I'm talking about radical Collaboration now I've been involved with establishing to state-wide Collaborations, what are they called, you know? The word is escaping me coalitions a one-for-one away homeless youth and one for team centers and the notion was this There was a lot of real little groups out there very rural communities and none of them sort of had the power to Do really effective Proposal writing to bring in grant money on their own. So we designated a lead agency Brought all these groups together in a coalition which was not easy because you have to decide who's going to do what and how you divide up money and How you decide if you're doing what she said you're going to do so there's lots of stuff But then you bring in money as a group and sub-grant out So a lot of times you do that. I did it at a state level. You can do it at a community level Collaborative proposal writing really acknowledges the ecosystem within which your organization exists So I think you're you're getting the point that as I talk about all this This is a knot about how do you write a measurable outcome How do you develop that? You know, how do you clearly define your methods? How do you? Prove the point. How do you use data? All of that you got to know but that's how to write a proposal This is if you this is seriously if you want to make change if that's what you're into it for then step away from Business as usual and at every juncture ask yourself What's the most impactful way that we can go about this? this work of a grant proposal development so Yeah, I see that if you do have questions just or even comments like I had One woman I was talking to she said but Barbara We're such a small organization. We can't really go for federal grants or big grants And I said yeah, but she can be a part of a coalition that does go for that as long as you're involved with others in your community Who are concerned about this same issue that you're concerned about? So it's sort of a radical it has to do with sharing You should when you get together in these sorts of shared proposals you share both risk and opportunity You share benefit you share money and to make it work Every group has to feel it has more to gain than it has to lose So it knows that it's going to have more power or it doesn't have as good a chance to do the work or to get the funding Unless they come together and there has to be a lot of discussion and negotiation So it's not an easy thing, but it's a powerful thing because once you build it It's there and so when something shows up that needs to happen You you called your budge, you know on the phone or you know text or whatever you do And all of a sudden they're going well. Yeah, we could do this part and we could do that part Okay, let's get together and you start trusting each other and sharing both resources and impact making so So that's that's a big one So the next time you hear collaboration don't think of it as a trite word You expand your thought about how it can be how it can affect your ecosystem I guess the the last thing I'll I'll talk a little bit about and then I do want to open it up to see if I can get some comments It's just that a Grants proposal is that should never be about your organization It should be about your cause those you serve the issue now Even a general operating proposal is not as I said, please give us money to keep the doors up and Please help us keep staff employed because you know what you don't exist to employ staff I mean, I'm glad you do. I'm glad people have jobs, but that's not why you exist So you whatever you exist is the reason for a proposal. So general operating is to keep doing good work Let's say that you want to put in a capacity building proposal Which what that means to funders is to strengthen your internal systems so that you can do Even better work or to support your work. It's not like let's do another program. That's a program kind of grant So let's say you need to Improve your data system your IT Your argument is not Please help us get good IT for our system for our for our organization because our IT our network and whatever is old and It you always have to frame it within why that matters to the work To the beneficiary. So obviously if you have really bad technology You're gonna be less efficient you're gonna spend more time than you need to in that realm instead of doing other kinds of work You may not be able to collect and analyze data the way you need to to guide your work to help you do continuous quality improvement Actually, this is a true story. I had one group who Was keeping their bookkeeping their building for their pretty large substance abuse treatment program It on note cards, you know, and it was just You know, I couldn't believe it But it wasn't please please don't let us have to kiss keep doing this on note cards first of all, they'd be shooting themselves with the foot because It would it would ding their credibility, right? But it would really be that we need to be efficient in recovering all of the costs we can so we can strengthen our services Deliver services we need to make sure they're not waiting this I mean all kinds of reasons That all have to do with the beneficiary I mean, obviously if you if you build a new building Or do a big renovation Uh, you're you're not going to say are you building this going to mean that less that more people stop using drugs? I mean, that's kind of a silly argument But but you can frame it to why does it matter is is your current building inadequate to offer facilities for for the proper counseling and treatment Does it not accommodate the children who come along with the parents? I mean, there's lots of different reasons But the reasons you need to do whatever you need to do Is not because of your organization is because of those you serve So there's a lot more I don't even call them chapters. I call them little sections in the book That identify these sorts of ways. I want you to try to think about grants work For example, there's one about A grant is not the solution to every funding need Just because you need money does not necessarily mean you need a grant So think about that again, this is and I give some examples of of that or work to sustain Work to sustain impact not Activities or programs The only reason the activity of program exists is because of the impact So, uh, those are just some examples of the chapter. So let me open it up And I hope people will ask some questions or make some comments or Maybe give some examples of your perception of what I've been talking about I'm going to call on you Sandra if no one else does. Yeah, I'm waiting to see if anyone's got something No I do Okay, great. So I'm Alice and Dodie We are glide revitalization And we are the long-term recovery group for the archie creek fire in glide, Oregon So a lot of our funding is Pretty relevant specifically to our disaster and But as we look at our primary Mission is for the betterment of glide and what that included was, you know, beautification projects economic development Housing and not so much in social services. And so as we're moving forward We are going to be writing a block grant the community development block grant and There are a lot of studies that haven't been done yet for this grant if I wanted to go after money for those studies How would I you talked about wording, you know To help us keep doing good work, not necessarily Um Yes, I'm just kind of a little bit confused on what maybe what's a Like in our initial Letter of interest, right How we would state that Now, are you going to be asking for those studies through the community development block grant? Is that what the application is going to be for or are you going to try to get those studies done in order to apply for the community? Development second. Yeah. Okay. So first of all, can you do this? Do those timeframes correspond? I mean, do you have time to put in a proposal? Get the money do the studies before the block grant is due or are you heading for the next cycle? Um, we're we have time. Okay. Um A planning grant what we're really talking about is a planning grant Because a study is like what you're going to know from the study is what you need to do. Is that correct? right So so I I would define that as a planning grant and and do Question me if you don't agree, but that's how I think about that And so with with a planning grant your argument is pretty much the same So why what's the situation that concerns you? Well, um, you've had a disaster and as a result there are a various specific challenges in your community that you will mention And then it matters a lot because it's affecting quality of life economic viability health of children and families and everybody, you know It matters for those reasons Okay Why is it happening? It's happening The disaster caused it but the issue right now is that we need to move forward and we need to figure out The prioritization Of the different activities specifically what will best propel us out of this situation and the priorities That we need to place on those different activities assuming you might not be able to do them all at once so um With a planning grant what you're going to propose is an outcome is going to be a well researched accepted by the community best practices plan of action Your methods are going to be actually Whatever you have to do to get that it you know get that done that study or that plan I'm thinking of it as a plan of action Because if you had a really good plan then you take that out into the community development block grant arena or any other funding arena And you say look we we know what we need and what order we need it and why it's best practice to do this And why this is the best way to get out of it then people will fund it, you know So what you're going for is a planning grant the problem is the same Why it matters is the same But you're saying In terms of why it's happening right now We're kind of at a standstill because we need a real well Develop plan to move forward effectively and we can't we don't want to run helter skelter just grabbing at whatever Happens to be there. We want to do it in a cohesive way Outcome is the plan Now obviously Even though you're going to have the plan you do want to talk to the the vision The goal is that through that plan? You're going to move forward methodically over your period. Hopefully to recover and even strengthen your situation in the community Is is that helpful That was very helpful. Okay. I have and then one other question is So we just got a state contract Which is going to cover 90 of our Employees I have I've been asked to apply for another capacity building grant What other things in capacity? realm Would be a good ask So you're gonna so that's good So it sounds like you have a funder who'll listen to you in terms of needing that plan It sounds like that plan is definitely capacity building things huge. Well, I would just say do you have Do you have Data systems already in place because you're going to need it, you know in terms of it Evaluation you need one big thing is always going to be to Be able to document What you're doing we call them sometimes outputs the number of different things you're doing how much of what went where But the other thing is the difference that's making and so you'll end up if in your plan to move forward Um, I don't know if you'll get that far But somehow you do need to develop and identify indicators Of what what what are your benchmarks? What's going to indicate to you that you've moved forward in this way and that way in the other way Some people call those benchmarks. Some people call them short term or intermediate outcomes You can call them one thing or the other But you need to develop Sort of a trajectory of where you are going and What indicators will show that you're moving in the right direction and then have a data system That you uh, so I would say capacity building is going to be setting up A data measures and evaluation and then having a system that is easy to use So you don't spend your whole life trying to wrangle it, you know Exactly. Okay. Great. Thank you. You're welcome. I need to excuse myself. I've got to hop onto another Another zoom, but thank you. I appreciate your time. I'm glad you came Let me know if you email me if you need me. Okay. I've got it. Thank you. It's by my book I'll look for it. Thank you. Okay, all right. I put the link in the chat as well Thank you. Alison interested Thank you. Um, we have a couple minutes left. Does anyone else have any questions? Barbara anything interesting? Hey, I also need to go. Thank you Barbara. Thank you, Marie. I'm glad you were here Actually, I did have a question. Um, I guess it was about the soul This is cornered the long-term recovery And a lot of what you talked about was sort of collaborating with larger communities And really looking at the root of problems and how to address them And so I was thinking about sort of Strategies you've encountered for how to evaluate, you know balancing sort of short long term You know when you're thinking about grants to go for and The real needs of a given community Sometimes it involved as you mentioned one of your examples, you know It was like a four-year process of the planning and then in the last year The year five was when you could really after having gotten the planning grant Then you knew what you needed to know to get the bigger grant for the actual programs that were Seen as necessary. So I guess I'm my question in a certain sense is the general strategy that You think of when you're trying to evaluate how to know how long-term thinking should be Well, you know, that really is a hard question You know when I did that work in with in the community for the transitional living home I mean, I knew it was going to be a heavy lift because there's a lot of not in my backyard These are your hard kids, whatever And so If I could have snapped my fingers I would have said it needs to happen right this minute because it did, you know, there are lots of kids who Did not have the advantage of it over those four or five years But reality was that I knew it couldn't because I know it wouldn't happen in the community in that Given time and so even though I knew it needed to happen quicker And and because the reality is all of us have Full-time jobs or something that we're doing that's taken up a lot of our time The only thing I could do was squeeze it in here Squeeze it in there do absolutely the most I could like who should I talk to who should I call? Who should we involve? What many should we have as much as I could? And then over time it sort of became clear now in that instance for that particular issue I didn't lay out A clear plan until we got the planning grant. I just started Bringing the issue to the community and pulling the community together Including all the players who I knew would be interested of course jobs people employment people probation education police The faith-based community all of there was a Reported justice group. I mean all of those people had to be involved So it depends on the situation the situation that Allison was just talking about You know, she's in a situation that's bad and that they have a lot of need I wish they didn't as far as were horrible But but it's good in that she's got an agency that's kind of try to give them the capacity and so forth and help them Give where they need to be and should be able to lay it out and have a time frame I think a lot of times when you're doing deep community work You don't have that advantage Like Allison's is like something burned down. I mean how Avert is that but you know with you let's say that you were dealing with substance abuse or homelessness all these intractable seeming Problems that are deep and rooted and tang the roots are all tangled up and everything And they're in your community and all communities That's going to be in a way. There's some a place where there's a development of will A development of mutual will amongst all those that have intersecting interests as organizations or even I mean, I don't know if I'm answering I I guess I'm saying it depends Does any of that make sense? Well, no, yeah, because it makes sense that you know You really have to pull the community kind of toward itself and Enable a lot of communication happen in order to know If there's any kind of short-term fix or if this really is some, you know Not a problem that is going to require A long-term thing and that's going to be hard because you want to fix it by the way But of course, you know, the community can't just do that. It has to Communicate with itself and figure out a plan and then get a planning grant and then so on and so forth So yeah, it could it's a group. It's possible like here in the little town I live in Montpellier, Vermont, Burma and just outside of Montpellier Um, we had an issue where homeless folks Didn't have any place to go in the winter And so a short-term fix was a couple of churches open their basement and started doing things like that Now it wasn't a long-term fix Community needed to do better it put together a planning committee and so forth But when you do come together it is possible to You know seek funding for short-term fixes If those fixes will have enough of an impact to alleviate Pain and suffering or or season opportunity that's once in a lifetime are fleeting So you you can Ask for short-term things as long as you Place the ask within a context of a longer look at the whole thing Okay Thank you. You're welcome. I think we're about out of time. Sandra. Yeah, and I think most people have dropped off I think there's one other person on here, but assuming there's no other questions We'll we'll probably wrap it up there. That was really insightful. I found it very interesting I I work with a smaller non-profit. So we haven't really done much with grants, but it was really interesting to learn about all the things you said and It's in a way similar to some of the projects I've worked on and you know, you kind of need to get to the root of Of the ask right and and the why It's usually about the why so that was really insightful for me And I I guess we'll wrap it up and thank you so much for for your time today. Barbara. That was excellent Well, you're welcome and thank you for having me and thank you for posting the link to my book Thanks a lot. Okay. Bye. Bye everybody. Bye everybody. Thanks Barbara. Bye