 Starting with addition to modification to the agenda. We, I think. Joy is asking to be promoted. Looks like. To leave the consultants is still, I guess we can leave it on the agenda if we want to talk about it briefly, but. Before they get here, but I think we're going to try to reschedule for next week. So. I think we're going to try to reschedule for next week. So. Except the agenda. Great. By commissioner Murphy. By commissioner. Any discussion. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed. That passes unanimously. The next item on our agenda is the minutes for. December 22nd. By commissioner Murphy. Second. Seconded by counselor Paul Lino. Any discussion. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed. Also passes unanimously. With that, we'll move on to our public forum. Thank you. Did anybody sign up? So the way we typically do this as a commission, given that it's a commission is we have the people who signed up speak first. And then if anyone else. Is on all they have to do is raise their hand and then throughout the Q and a section is also open. So if you have any questions, you can use the curing infection and I will do my best to interrupt the discussion to read off. Those comments and thoughts. And if it ends up being longer and we don't have a few people also free to also happy to enable people to speak again. But Shannon, I'll hand it over to you. So we do have. Several people that have signed up. So we'll move on to our public forum. The first one I don't see on the list. William Emmons. Julia Pupko. Jess Laporte and grace file feel. And Alexandra Sturges. And then there's a few more. So I'll just kind of go from the start here, William. I don't see William in attendance here. Julia. Okay, Julia. Hello. Can you hear me? Okay. Perfect. So I just wanted to start by acknowledging. All of the hard work that community members. Leaders of the battery park movement and also all of you on the joint committee and police commission. And city council have done. In this process. And I just wanted to say that. It was really disappointing last night to put it mildly that. The mayor's veto was not overridden. By the city council. And really goes to show that more work is needed to be done. And I sent in. A much longer public comment, but to kind of summarize that, I just wanted to kind of put some food for thought on the table and ask. Kind of how. Us as a very engaged community can better engage with the joint committee so we can all work together and continue to move this process forward. Because it is so important that. A community oversight model of the police. And I think that it will be much more effective. At some point, hopefully sooner rather than later. And I just think that the entire process will be much more effective. If we can all just work together. And that is all that I have. Thank you. Thanks, Julian. Okay. Sorry. One. Next is just the port followed by grace. Okay, Jess. My name is just a poor I'm a cis black woman. I live in Burlington. I've spoken with this committee as well as the police commission in the past and then very vocally in support of. The charter change proposal that councilor Freeman brought forward. Related to community control of the police. I also did drop off of an email chain with you all. And I wanted to pick up with this committee. I heard from you all when this was referred to you. That you wanted, you needed more time to understand how community control police works. What an appropriate model would be. You wanted expert opinion on it. And also felt that the police commission should have been more involved. And now we have all the time in the world because. We have all the time in the world. We have all the time in the world. We have all the time in the world. We are bringing this to the ballot in March. Which is really disappointing. I think it's really ironic that the same council and mayor that said. Four months. The reason why they couldn't take act disciplinary action against three violent officers in the force. Was that in the city charter. They don't. The only person that can do that is the chief of police. The chief of police. The chief of police. The chief of police. The chief of police. Are saying actually a lot of this can just go through ordinances, which don't have control over the police union. And I do feel that this body, especially the police commissioners raised concerns about how does this interact with the police union contract. And so I'm turning to you all. I think it's, it's very unfortunate that we're not in a place where we can at least. You know, I don't know if this is something that the community is motivated and desiring. But now I believe I, I'm not exactly clear. I believe this is the body that we as a public should work with. This joint committee was created. Out of the reality of these protests. Calling for racial justice. In Burlington. And I think it's very important that the community, the community, the community, the community, or the public can collaborate with this body. Bring input and learn about what you are doing as a body. In the same way that I was able to work alongside councilor Freeman and to participate in the charter change committee meetings. I also would appreciate to understand. I would like to see. Community control the police on the agenda. And I would also like to see the community as a part of the community. I would also like to see the community as a part of the community that takes to do the research and to feel knowledgeable and to bring meaningful proposals forward that have investigatory and disciplinary power. And independence from the police. I do not feel comfortable as a member of the public. That I have to, in order to be a part of this public forum, I would like to see the community as a part of the community as a part of the community department. And that is my mechanism to engage with this body. I would appreciate other options. And I would appreciate an independent body. But in the meantime, I would like to know how the public participates. Thank you. Thank you, Jess. Okay. Next is Grace, followed by Alexandra Sturgis. So that's my question. I have a phone. And I'm not a co-founder. And Leila Fortune off. Okay, great. I'm wondering if it's possible to let some other folks speak and come back to me. You could also just get me and I can raise my hand at the end too. Thanks. Hi, I'd also like to let folks speak before me. Feel free to move me to the back of the line. And I'd be happy to just raise my hand at the end as well. I just want to make sure everyone's voices heard. So I don't think we're going to not get to folks for how many people are on right now. So Zoe followed by Lila and then say a Zawisky Zoe My name is Zoe Before I'm white and I usually them pronouns I moved to Vermont in 2015 right before my freshman year of high school and I graduated from Burlington High School in 2019. Yesterday, the city council was unable to overrule Mayor Weinberger's veto of the charter change for community control of police. This happened despite the majority of the council voting in favor of this change and hundreds of Berlin Tonians calling into meeting after meeting in order to voice their support for this charter change. Councillor Freeman, the author of this charter change proposal worked tirelessly to include as many voices as possible in their proposal, and it was clear representation of the will of the people, particularly BIPOC members of the community. Despite this, the council did not to vote to override the veto and said they rejected the will of the public and they chose not to give the public the ability to make their own decisions about their own public safety decisions that affect them every single day. However, the veto was not the first roadblock this proposal received before the city council is even able to discuss this proposal this joint committee tried to halt the movement of this proposal by offering the suggestion that this proposal be subject to more and approve more revisions and overview and changes. And so the people in this joint commission and the counselors that voted against of writing vetoes cited various reasons why they cannot support this action. One of their speeches was that they do not believe that the Burlington Police Department, sorry, was that they did believe the Burlington Police Department need to be held accountable and they wanted to support community control police. However, they believed that there were issues that still needed to be worked out. So tonight my question is, what are the next steps you will be taking, stating that you want to support community control police is not enough. What will you be taking in the following year in order to allow for a charter change to happen. I will be working to engage more with your fellow committee members and the city council and the community in order to reach the compromise you so desire. Along the path to charter change what additional measures are you hoping to implement. Many people in this committee and on the city council spoke about the benefits of ordinances to help in this issue. What ordinances will you propose and fight to pass. I will be willing as the public safety committee to look beyond the system of police and come up with revolutionary and innovative ideas that will eliminate violence and white supremacy in our community and bring about real public safety. Will you be rejecting chief mirad's proposal to increase the police force, instead look more thoughtfully at alternatives to policing. What can the community do to work alongside you and help you. And measure has failed to pass, but don't let that stop you from trying to make a difference. And furthermore, do not be fooled into thinking your words are enough. They are meaningless without actions to accompany them. There's still much that can and needs to be done in order to root out the public health and safety crisis of white supremacy and racism in our community. And we the people need to hear your strategies and plans for moving forward and be involved closely and intimately with them. Thank you. Thank you so much. Okay, next is Leila fortune off say is a little is a whiskey and then Grace Horlick. Can you do. Hi, can you hear me. Yes, we can. Yeah, my name is Lilla. I use she her pronouns I'm a white cis woman I live in Ward three. I first just want to say such a huge thank you to counselor Freeman and counselor high tower for all of the emotional and other labor that you put into the charter change and trying to get the other counselors. To look at it. I just like really, really, really appreciate you to so so much and want to start out by saying that. Yeah, other other commissioners other other counselor Paulino. I think that some of you probably already understand that you're getting a lot of folks who are involved with the charter change process who are extremely frustrated with being told just as Jess and Zoe have said that people in the city people with power to make decisions about this. The police in the city want more police accountability but they don't like the way that the community came together and said, This is how we should do it. I'm really sharing sentiments with Zoe and Jess of. Okay, Commissioner so we know you wanted us to have more time you wanted to go to Naco. I can't remember exactly what other commissioners wanted but I know we wanted more time and just like just was saying okay now we have this time. What are you all going to do about it. Because I recognize that you all have a lot on on your plates right and this is not your full time job. It's just one of your one of your roles in your lives and so and you also have no authority to make the police department do anything and so we're that that's why we wanted this whole separate board. I know that there are lots of limitations and I don't know exactly how they all work. And so I would love to hear from all of you about what are the next steps just as Jess was and Zoe were saying what are the next steps. How can how are we going to figure this out because right now you have a very very disheartened and disillusioned huge number of community members who are disheartened and disillusioned at this process and and with city government right now. And we need your help because we don't know how this all works. And we need you to help us along. I also want to just say that Police Chief Murad was was asking the city council back in December for more money to reverse the the budgetary decision to decrease the police budget, which was decided after unprecedented community outcry to decrease the police budget to defund the police. And now he's asking for more money. And I strongly oppose that. The, the current number, like the cap on the police officers, the budget was decreased so that the cap would be lowered to match up with the proportion of police to the number of citizens that the size of Burlington basically so I strongly support, or I strongly oppose hiring more full officers that would be armed. I think that there is a potential opportunity to hire unarmed police employees that are like social workers or CSOs or CSLs, any sort of unarmed employee because clearly the police chief thinks that there are gaps that are going to be occurring, but I, but I strongly strongly oppose hiring any more full officers and I don't know what power you all over. You all have over that situation, but I, I don't know. I want to make that note. Okay, thank you so much. That's all. Next is Thea Zelisky, followed by Grace Horlick and Phoebe Perrin. I did think I saw you but I don't see you in the list now. Grace and Grace, I'm unable to identify you as well. Next is Phoebe and then we'll circle back to the two. Can you hear me. So it looks like in the Q&A, someone was asking if Zenavia could speak as soon as possible. They can go before me. That's, that's fine. If you want to do that. So thanks for that. One, I don't actually see Zenavia in the attendees. It looks like Silas Goldman. If they're with them. Yeah. Okay. Hello. Hi. Wait, can you hear me? Yeah. Okay, perfect. Yes. I am with Silas. But no, I, I think there's a lot to talk about and I really am not someone who dwells on what should have been done and what mistakes were made. Regardless if I think the mistake was extremely detrimental to this work and the work that I am doing regardless if there's a yes or no. And with that being said, I think I look at what the problems were and what people specifically said, Perry's proposal was lacking, or would, or what caused that pushback and turmoil. And I heard I put up on a lot of things. One is that in terms of time and how long or exactly the process of it getting through democratically, how reliable that will be. I think it's important to understand that black bodies in the democratic process have continuously been pessimistic. Because the democratic process is not always work for us. With that being said, realistically, this established body that folks are saying would be kind of a piggyback off of Perry's proposal is already established and we're looking at it. Which is police commission, but the issue with police commission is that it's much like other things that politicians hand to us and hand to us for free, and it's half asked police commission could be this new change that we see and it's a free man's proposal or loved and free man's proposal, which again I want to nod my head off to that as well because we put so much more effort that was actually even visible behind the scenes in terms of explaining that and we really kind of just kind of languish to our people. But I think, hands down, building more and speaking more to what this could be. This is not a board that speaks for all BIPOC folks. And it's hard to say that, because I'm only looking at a few BIPOC folks and a board about safety and security with police, knowing that black people are the main targets to that kind of harm. With that being said, when I look at police commission and what that already is and could be. What I mentioned last night during our talk during the call and during our public forum was me finally be able to have a seat and to specify and make that a little bit more logical. Having a seat at this table isn't an ask, but a requirement at this point. We talked about Black Lives Matter, and we talked about putting that effort to ensure safety and security for BIPOC folks in Burlington. Continuously, even before there was a talk about a charter, black voices have been neglected when speaking about the importance of security, even in their own homes. So what that means is, I can look at police commission and put all of my trust and hope into that. But at the end of the day, police commission isn't going to be there on my front doorstep, when different door someone comes knocking at my front door. But when I look at folks like Zariah, when I look at folks like Randall, like Jubilani, Jabalani, I really think in my head and can at least four split seconds believe that they understand what I mean when I say I don't feel safe. And relay what that means when I say I don't feel safe. We have the opportunity to build on this and create something just as revolutionary as Perry's proposal. But until we continue to focus, and I want to again make it clear, someone said last night, the only proposal that actually centered BIPOC folks was Freeman's proposal, which is why I want to really, really make it clear that that is why BIPOC folks gravitated towards that proposal is because they saw themselves in these conversations. That is all. Incuse an avian. That makes sense. Yeah. Phoebe Perrin. Hi. My name's Phoebe. I'm a cis white woman living in Ward two. I've lived in Burlington for five years now and I'm currently working as a para educator. I'm working here today to talk about community control the police. I like others in my community and deeply disappointed by the mayor's veto of Freeman's proposed charter change last night. That being said, I'm still invested in finding another avenue to create community control the police in Burlington. Community control of the police seems like the best path to making Burlington a safe city for people who have been historically marginalized by the police. I'm new to this work. I'm new to understanding city government and how police work so I don't have any suggestions this evening for where we go from here but I'd like to make it clear that I want more police accountability in Burlington and that I and many members of my community are going to be engaging to make this a reality and we need you and your support to do that. So I'd like to urge you all, especially the white members of this committee in the upcoming process to not only listen to but center the voices of people who have been historic historically marginalized by the police in the process of shifting disciplinary and investigatory power out of the hands of police. Thank you. Thank you, Phoebe. Okay, circling back up to the top grace. Yeah, it's file. Thank you. Hi everybody. Last night was extremely disappointing. For a lot of us. I just want to acknowledge and express my really, really deep gratitude for the amount of work that counselor Freeman and counselor high tower have put into community control of police alongside many, many, many many people, including myself, who work full time jobs as well, and are not paid to learn about charter changes or any of that yet we have taken it upon ourselves to learn all of this information so that we can come to you and try to affect some positive change in our community. Yeah, and I just I think that I think that the police commission in my opinion the police commission has a lot of important work to do. And you are deeply, I would I would say embedded within the police department right you are part of the police department. You have meetings inside of the police department you have police department emails. You have someone from the police department who's facilitating this meeting right. And I think, ultimately that's not what we're looking for we're looking for there to be an independent body that is independent from the police department that has power over the police. And that is what we've been asking for. And I, I feel that that can exist alongside of the police commission I don't think that those two things are mutually exclusive. There's been a lot of lot of lot a lot of talk that was mostly what happened last night was people saying we need to come together and we need to find consensus. And we do need to come together and we do need to find consensus and there has been broad consensus from the community around community control police. And I think another thing that came up in some of these meetings was that there wasn't enough time and that this felt rushed. I think now you all, and we all have lots and lots and lots of time to continue to work on community control of police and continue to envision a Burlington that is safe for all of us. And I just wanted to let you know that we are all watching and we are all at these meetings we have been at these meetings, and we will continue to show up at these meetings. And we are committed to this and I hope you are committed to this too, and we'll join us. So, thank you. Thank you, Grace. Hi, can you hear me. Yes, we can. Okay, I'm going to keep it brief. My name is Alex I'm a cis white woman and a lifelong resident of this area. I'd also like to echo what others have said to just really acknowledge everyone's hard work on this committee, including an especially counselors high tower and Freeman, and all of the folks who have continued to work on the charter change just tirelessly on top of just other commitments and jobs and a lot going on and also like Xenavia said I don't want to dwell but what happened last night was disappointing and shameful. What I'd like to bring up to this commission today is just how can we move forward and center center the safety and well being of BIPOC folks in police oversight because I heard so much front last night from the mayor and from counselor Shannon Paul Paulino and Mason and Carpenter about themselves and their own personal dilemmas and their concern about the white police chief and the white mayor and just very little to nothing about the safety and sanctity of the lives of BIPOC Burlingtonians. This proposal was the only one that did center those things and moving forward knowing that we do now have all of this time. I just want to make sure that we're super clear that we're that that argument of like oh we haven't had enough time to look at this is no more. Just like the argument oh we haven't heard from enough people even though we have 150 people signed up for public forum is just ridiculous on its face and so we got to stop pulling that one out because it's nonsense. Something I thought about a lot today sort of sitting in that disappointment was how compassion without action is just observation. So if you're before just observing injustice and not acting on it. That's exactly what we're doing so the compassion in without that further action just means nothing and so moving forward. I just want to make sure that we keep that action in our compassion and that we're centering black safety and black life in Burlington and police oversight and that's all I got. Thank you. Thank you Alex. The other two say I do see Grace Horlick on. So just circle back to her grace. Hi there. Can you hear me. Yes. I was on the call as well last night and it was a bit of a yeah disappointment I just felt like after everyone who spoke so honestly and personally about how the sort of feelings they had around this and especially our BIPOC community members who themselves out there and really spoke on things honestly I just was really surprised that this wasn't moved on and I'm concerned that this is going to fall into the backdrop and I think as the standing sort of public safety over years I would like to ask of you that we move forward with this in whatever way we can to make sure that that we're hearing from our community that the public safety system public safety system as it stands is making people feel unsafe and those people have raised their voice and done all of this work up until this point to to show the officials of the city and I think we just need the checks and balances on our police officers. They just they can't police themselves and we can't settle for any sort of scenario where there isn't an independent way to discipline and investigate them aside from the Burlington Police Department itself and also I just believe that there is this need to sort of focus on the ways in which we can start to transform this system in ways where we can fill the needs that police officers may not be best suited for such as having more mental health and social workers in communities and helping people with those issues rather than having an officer show up at their home or in their space and potentially lead to more trauma in their lives so yeah I think just generally we need to treat this as an urgent issue and make sure that our policing is being independent are being disciplined and independently investigated. Thank you, that's all I have to say. Thank you, Grace. And that is all of the emails that I've received. Great. Thank you, Shannon. So at this point, if people who have not spoken want to raise their hand Lauren I saw you in the Q&A. I'm happy to read your comment but you can also raise your hand and anyone else can at this point to speak. Seeing no hands, I'm going to go ahead and read Lauren's comment, but folks can still raise their hand. Lauren said my name is Lauren Bergeron. I'm an educator has been a Burlington resident for 26 years. I'm raising a young child with another white educator who's a lifelong resident of Burlington. I live in war two. I support community control of police wholeheartedly the mayor's veto words last night and the vote last night was incredibly disheartening. And we have Silas raising their hand. Hi, everyone. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Hi, this is actually Emma Chaffee. I'm also with Silas and Zanavia. I'm calling in because I just want to say that no proposal is perfect, right, but Perry's proposal was progress. And though that progress was shamefully shut down, we can still build upon it. As Zanavia and others said, Perry's proposal was the only one that centered black people and other people of color. Before this committee takes any further steps, it needs to be set in stone and publicly confidently declared by you that BIPOC folks will be the center of an in control of any proposed control group. Last night I wanted to tell Joan, Chip, Karen and Sarah that it was unfathomable to me that just one of them had to change their vote in order for thousands of Burlington residents to be able to vote. That just one of them got to decide for all those who spoke last night and for all of the BIPOC activists who have spent months on this work. Moving forward, respect that work that black women and femmes have done and do the honorable thing and represent what the public wants. So I want to remind everybody that the people are powerful. The battery park movement, for example, is powerful. It's transformative and it's revolutionary. We can garner statewide support for a BIPOC center proposal. Let us show you that black liberation should be the foundation of every choice that is made on this council and in the police commission. Thank you. Thank you. If anybody else wants to talk, just speak, feel free to raise your hand. Other than that, we will close a public forum. But again, if folks want to type in the Q&A, I'll try to keep up with those comments. And we have Eli. Hi. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. I don't have that much to say and I don't want to repeat too much of what other people said. Obviously, last night was disappointing. I just think that the descriptions of police just being emboldened to do whatever they want and knowing that there's not going to be any accountability by a bunch of people who spoke last night. Describing that is pretty disturbing. And I just think that the veto was upheld probably is going to embolden those police officers who enjoy not having to follow the law even more. And the practical point of that is that what you do in this committee and on the city council and just views that you make public can have the impact of showing the police that accountability is coming. And hopefully the effect of that will be less violence against marginalized people. And I think that's the goal. And that's all I have to say. Thank you. Thank you, Eli. We have both Jess and Nikki raising their hands if we could let Nikki speak first because I think Jess has gone. Hi, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Sorry, I don't have a comment officially prepared, but I would like to just remind all the white folks that are on this chat or on the video that centering whiteness here like we heard last night is so problematic. And I would like to remind everyone that's white that's been a part of this that this is not about us. It's about the front that the cops inside our head that may be that nagging voice saying, well, what about public safety? What about public safety? And remind ourselves that public safety must include BIPOC folks, otherwise it is completely ineffective and it upholds white supremacy. I think that's all I have to say. Thanks. And Black Lives Matter. Thank you, Nikki. We have a couple of questions and then Silas and our company. Hi, I'm sorry, I realize that I already spoke, but you know something about hearing the voices of other members of the community always reminds me of other important elements that I hope are at the table. I'm an educated black woman with a salaried position and benefits. I haven't seen it enough though I grew up in a low income family to currently have a relative level of financial stability and housing security. And as I'm not a member of the trans community and don't experience mental illness in a way that impacts my daily life. Actually, as far as black people go have very little chance of having any interaction with the police, let alone a negative interaction. Just like many of the black people on this body. I know how to behave. I know how to present myself in the community. I know how to be quiet when it's going to be dangerous to be a black woman. I know that the black women on this on this call understand how easily our anger is weaponized. And I know the black men on this call know that too. I wanted to speak again specifically to talk about representation in the community control board as presented in Perry Freeman's proposal, because representation is not just about skin color it's also about life and I know that some members of the police commission, not only are black but have a wide variety of life experience. And we're at a place in Burlington where they woke up and they realized that things were so messy in the police department that they wanted to make sure that if nothing else people could say it's racially diverse. And it's over represent over over representative right now, but there is nothing a guaranteeing that the police commission isn't going to go back to an old white boys club again. So many parts of Councilor Freeman's proposal were were criticized specifically around representation, because for some reason we feel like, as long as it's not too bad right now we shouldn't rock the boat to ask for transformative change. I'm not exactly sure if the director of police transformation is on this call, because unlike public servants like yourself, his face is anonymous in these video calls and I don't know if he is listening, but I know that you all understand that there's something deeply problematic, deeply problematic that one of the major reasons used against Councilor Freeman's proposal was low morale, attrition and inability to recruit police officers. So I know that you're a police officer. And I would hope that you would be proud to serve alongside other police officers that care about public safety, rather than their own account their own independence. I think the members of this of this commission and of the public safety committee should be the first people to say that we want a police chief that wants to do an excellent job, not have incidents that would even go to this committee. And then that that would actually be a point of pride and recruitment, like that would be amazing. So that's where my mind is and I know that there's discussion of staffing that's going to be happening later in this meeting. It's really suspect to me that there's nothing up on board docs even to reference what brought this discussion to this body. I'm on there right now and I know that there have been presentations at previous meetings and I know that, you know, Mirad has made his case and I know that the mayor has made his case on this topic, but as a member of the public signing in tonight. I have no way to reference those previous documents that would maybe guide me as to what you all are supposed to be discussing tonight. So, thank you. Thanks, Jess, and then we have Silas one more time. Hi, I'm going to acknowledge the fact that I spoke again as well. But I think it's important that BIPOC voices are speaking today, especially after being very clearly ignored yesterday. I wanted to speak a bit more again I pay back of what Jess said I think is very important to hear the voices and almost catch on to things that aren't really brought up normally in these conversations, but I noticed the word accountability has come up a lot. And I think the word the term or we see about police accountability. That's not something that we haven't already spoken about and touched on, but what I don't hear is inner politics accountability. Yes, our proposal, or what the folks in the community have rallied so hard for wasn't exactly your ideal representation of what you think accountability looks like, but what accountability looks like amongst you folks is to hold your co-workers accountable. Answer the questions that they didn't have answers to last night that we're giving you right now, whether or not they understood fully what their actions were when they voted no or their actions were when they voted yes, it's important to make sure that you're relaying that message because they understand that as often and as casually like this as we as you do, or as you are doing right now. And listening is also subjective as well. But when we talk about inner politics accountability. I noticed that by saying an all BIPOC board that sounds the first thing I hear is that it's bias. I don't hear that it's segregating the actual thoughts and process for this work, but understand that things like HPC use black unions and politics black caucuses are not new and I've actually proven to make so much more change by having those dedicated spaces and centered spaces. With that, understanding that we're to build on something like this police commission that the chief would be involved, although I do not personally agree with that. It should be the only white person in that room. When we say inner politics accountability. If the chief was the only white person in that space. They are experiencing all different backgrounds of communication that they will not get in their safe space of this broken system. On top of what I meant when I was saying we can build more on this police commission. If this is going to be all BIPOC board I would assume that everyone is also thinking that they also have paid jobs. But on top of that it's also very clear from what I've learned with our conversations with folks here in city council or outside city council as well. I would also respect for us to hold them accountable for free. And with that is a holding accountable for free also means that you have zero obligation to digest that accountability with paid jobs, you are obligated to not only do that job correctly as a BIPOC person on that board, but with a paid job you are also letting folks know that this is actual work systemically that needs to be hold or held to a higher degree. And that was my last point. Thank you. That was Zenavia. Thank you Zenavia. Great. Thanks for those comments. With that I'll close public forum. I'll allow myself the latitude and you all can roll me out of order to respond to a few of those things. I'll start and then I'll come to you if that's okay. So the first thing is is the BPD support for this commission is as we started I wasn't sure who our support would be. And again, and I believe volunteered and I'm appreciative of her for doing that. I don't want anybody to have to interact with anyone in the police department if they don't feel comfortable. Know that still we haven't had a lot of things with public forum but I will see if on the back end one if we can have voices self identify themselves and then to if you do not feel comfortable with the signup process you can always send me an email and then I will do a better job of liaisoning beforehand to make sure that we've got a list and then also you never have to sign up. As long as I am chair I will continue to make sure that folks who are in the space can raise their hand to speak and I will also do a better job of letting folks off at NSF themselves as a marginalized voice. There was a question on the agenda and the BPD staffing discussion I apologize. That was my fault. This is an item that we the council requested that the police commission take up and I believe that that request was made after a recent police commission meeting and so the council wanted an answer before the next police commission meeting so there was some discussion about whether or not it would be a discussion here in the joint committee or if the police commission would hold a special meeting. I'm not actually sure if what was decided and so when we get to that item I am not 100% sure what will happen at that point I will step down as chair and let Commissioner Jabu take over as chair because it's really supposed to be a police commission focused discussion and so as they're supposed to be giving feedback to the council it's a little bit more about them than it is about myself or Councillor Freeman, I mean Perry or Franklin. The other question is I appreciate the thank yous. I do feel like I have to call out that it was really Perry and the community members led by BIPOC, and I'm a binary folks, but others as well who created the resolution and did all the research. Everything else I only I read the draft for the first time a month ago when it was already and it's complete stages and so I am I think but an ally and so I just wanted to make that clear. And then Jabu you had your hand up. Yeah I was just pointing information I believe was Mr. Port I think she stated that I was a police officer and I would like to go on the record and say that I've never been employed by the police department, any police department and I am not an officer. And one more thing I wanted to mention is this I am the chair of this committee my names are a high tower. I'm also a counselor is I think most of you know the co chair of this committee is Sharon Hart who is on the police commission and is also the co chair of the police commission. Karen, go ahead. I also have point of information we don't have police emails we have city emails, our emails are not BPD emails. Okay, so some action items, I think, for me coming out of this, just to wrap up that conversation is to make sure that the sign up mix clear that you can also email me if you would like to sign up to make clear that you do not have to sign up if you want to speak, and to make sure that we're centering marginalized voices in both the sign up and in the raise hand function. And then we can go through the agenda I guess I want to call out that the things that I heard is. Oh, one more thing is why what I don't know if somebody asked about why what happened yesterday wasn't on the agenda we made the agenda before. I think even the veto was made we discussed will be an agenda. I knew that a beta was coming. And then the other thing is how do we work with the joint committee on the next iteration of the charter. I'm going to also cheat and let us give us some time to discuss that before we close today. I guess we could do that under 4.0 next meeting agenda items. Yeah, I think that was that was the majority. I hope that that addresses everyone's questions. If I missed something that you still have that just created more questions, feel free to put those in the Q&A and or comments. With that, I will turn to item three understanding. I know I'm sorry folks that you came here to hear us talk about something specific I don't think this will be a very long meeting or if it is then hopefully we can switch 4.01 and 3.03. But I will let, and by that I mean talking about what you all just addressed is about before we talk about bpd staffing although I assume most people are probably interested in both. So let me move us on to 3.01 just to hear back on references from the bpd assessment. One more thing I'm sorry that I forgot to address. I realize you all can't see who's on the call. The last thing that I wanted to say is that both chief John Murad and director Kyle Dotson tend to join these calls as attendees, and then they are promoted to panelists. When an item comes up that is relevant for them to speak on or when one of the commissioners has a question for them or anything else like that and they tend to be be on all of the calls as attendees I think is available. If I did I miss any other questions commissioners Perry was nodding on that one so I think she'd noted that I'd miss that. Okay, with that I will move us to 3.01 and the background on this is for folks who are maybe new to this meeting as we've been working through the process of two different assessments, which were brought about by the racial justice resolution that was passed in June. And it called for an assessment and this body decided to split that into two assessments, one assessment that was specifically around community feedback. We're hoping to have that process start much earlier than it has but I think it'll actually kick off next week. I'm hoping that will be a part of the answer. In terms of how we work through some of this. Some, some better way to get community feedback as this body. The second RFP, which means request for proposals is specifically on a Burlington Police Department assessment we met. I think December 22nd, and selected a group to do an assessment specifically on the Burlington Police Department, which is, there was a clear kind of winner from the process that we went through we did a voting process ahead of time and then discussed it on the meeting. And we, one of us, Karen, Commissioner Durfee went and got references for those we hope and she's giving a report. So Karen the floor is yours. Hi, I have an unstable internet connection upstairs so I apologize. So the references I called on the references that preferred consultancy that we voted on and I called on December 23rd. So I have not prepared a full report because I am still waiting for people to get back to me. So there haven't been any responses. There have been a couple of phone tags people are just getting back to work on January 4. Today is the fifth. We have several emails and several meetings lined up. Okay. I think joy is a panelist. Is that true. Okay, quick question so I think I'm going to ask the Commission to meet again next week since we missed. Tell us that if we get something next week is there a chance that we can get in front of the council by January 19th. So I'm not sure if that's a good thing or is that unlikely. What are you in terms of choosing the assessment. Yeah, so we, I assume, and I guess commissioners feel free to weigh in, but I assume just knowing how long this process takes I don't want us to skip as many procedural kind of gaps as possible. But I don't know if the commission wants to vote to move this forward to council today if we don't have the references back yet. So I assume we'll actually do it next week. And if that's the case, can we still get it to a council vote, because I think this has to go to board of finance and then maybe on the consent agenda for council. I believe it just has to go to council. So on the, on the 12. It would need to be a quick turnaround but I think we could get it on the, on the 19th if we really push it. Okay, thank you. Okay, that's any, any, do any other folks have thoughts on this item. Go ahead. Sorry, can you hear me. Yes. My only thought is that to not schedule it for the 12th, only because I'll get to that when we get to be the staffing, but I have a, that is when the police commission has a special meeting scheduled to discuss staffing. Thank you. Okay. Anything else on the recommendations. Okay. Okay. So we're going to move on to 3.02, which is the Talitha consultants work planning. So I was hoping that they would be here with us. I think you'll get my email. But we unfortunately still don't have a signed contract. I believe that will come through tomorrow. Fingers crossed. The last point we're waiting on is just some feedback from the city's insurer. Talitha turned out didn't have quite a required insurance for a contract like this. We're working through it. I think we're very close. So I'll try to get that done as soon as we can. Great. Thanks for all of your work on that. Sorry, this has been more of a. The holidays slowed everything down, but we are we're moving. Okay, great. And so. So I assume that they will be here next week and we can start that work planning. I guess before that, if there's anything that we want them to consider going into work planning so that they can have something prepared for next week potentially. That would be the time to say so, and I'll have Audrey. Take notes on that so that we can send them to. Talitha and for the public. This is Audrey Oliver. She's my personal counsel staff. And so she's a city. A part-time city employee. And she's been great about helping us out on this commission. But I don't have to keep track of everything. Any thoughts for next week and anything we want to leave that a focus on. So I did begin reaching out to those that you all wrote down as like community organizations that you were hoping for to let the two contact at some point when they begin their process. And some of those folks were wondering about when they could expect to let the two get involved or to reach out to them or how long or a timeframe for this process. And I was wondering if that's a question for next time to. Great, I think that is a question for next time. I'm hoping January, but I think I've always been too optimistic on my timelines for every single part of this so I could be wrong. But yeah, I would say late. Second half of January or early February. That's good. Thank you. Thanks. And yeah, so. Sorry, I'm doing a lot of clarifications because we've got more folks with us today, but we'd originally established a list of kind of service providers which included everything from food not bombs to the Howard Center in terms of help us start to formalize an understanding of public safety. And so we, we very deliberately said that we would both have kind of organizational focus groups, but then also individual focus groups. And so for the organizations were just starting to try to develop a list of contacts for the consultant. Karen, you had your hand up. I was going to say exactly what Audrey said. Has anybody reached out to those organizations? So I would, you know, really shorten the process. So you've already done that right, Audrey. So, yes, I've reached out 34 and 10 have given me info so far. So start. And Jess, I don't understand your questions. So if you want to raise your hand to speak or ask the question verbally, then great. I keep freezing. Yeah, my question is, it's this body created a or came up with a list of organizations and groups in the city to reach out to. And I was wondering if when the outreach goes to them they're able to continue to refer you into the community of other organizations who might not be aware of. Yes, we haven't asked that yet. But I think once we have the contact list of who Audrey is working on making of just, you know, the right emails of people, I will make sure that we also invite them to give us other folks or maybe Audrey, you can add that to your outreach now. I also was typing a second question about how this is related to the listening sessions that Director Green is hosting. I'll send it anyways just so it's there. But in those in those instances, there were a number of individuals who are not affiliated with racial justice or other social justice oriented organizations and wondering how this RFP relates to the listening session work to find kind of just individuals in the community. Yeah, so Director Green Taisha was the one who signed. So she's kind of our, because we don't have like any city staff per se on this committee so she was the one who sponsored the resolution. But she knows that it's happening. She and I haven't really had an in depth discussion yet, which we had intended to do and then I apologize. We didn't to get a better understanding of how they're because that they're also working through a committee and how we can make sure we're not duplicating work. So I think that's probably something that should be on my to do list before we move it still to the consultants that answered your questions. Any other thoughts or folks, any other thoughts are on this 3.2 3.02 item. Great. Then the last one, which is the BPD staffing discussion and I guess first, just a question on your view on how you want to handle this. Yeah, so city council, because as police commission to look into this and I reached out to the police commission and for back from all but one, and that as right now. I was going to set up a meeting for next week Tuesday, the 12th. I hope to have that posted on board docs by tomorrow. Yeah, to hopefully be able to give some input to a city council before their meeting on I believe which is the 18th. 19th. Somewhere around there. I think I think it's the 18th I believe because the next police commission meeting is on the 19th. So yeah. So that's kind of all the discussion we'll have on that today for members of the public. I know some people had specific questions about that, which is the reason also I think there's no materials on it. Great. And just to clarify, the police commission has not gotten the same presentation yet that the council has gotten. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. So I think we'll have one that today for members of the public. I know some people had specific questions about that, which is the reason also I think there's no materials on it. So the, it sounds like next Tuesday, the police commission will get the same presentation that the council got the part the materials will be reposted to the police commission meeting. And you all, I believe there's also public forum during that meeting so you all can chime in at that time. Great. Any other thoughts on 3.03. Great. Then the next item on our agenda is 4.01, which is next meeting agenda items. So I think two things to discuss here is one or next meeting which I'm hoping is early next week. So that, but if it can't be then it can't be. And then the second item is how the joint committee. I guess I just would like to hear thoughts really from everyone in terms of how we want to handle. And if we want to handle working on the charter oversight questions specifically. So we're going to have Stephanie. So we're going to also hear hopefully about the references for the RFP. Yes, and hopefully have a working session with Tolita. Yes. Great. Good. And then did you have thoughts on the, whether or not the joint committee works on the charter change as a joint committee. I think it would be a great discussion. I really appreciated the, the activist comments tonight and I, I really appreciate that pressure to keep the pressure on us. And I think it would just be really good for us to talk through what the landscape looks like. So that this doesn't slide off. Everybody's, you know, kind of attention for the next few months. Thanks. Go ahead Karen. I'm going to shut off my camera. I'm going to freeze again. I think it might be a kind of echo, I echo Stephanie's comments and I think it also you, you're providing a lot of information, sort of in between. So maybe the start of the conversation and folks can weigh in on this maybe the start of the conversation is a little bit of a sort of where, you know, where we are with regard to some of the work that's in the charter change. For example, you know, I would like to talk with the group about the RFPs and the purpose for the RFPs. I think Jess had just commented on that but that might be something so maybe having a gender item to, you know, talk about some backs, you know, some some information because I don't I don't really think that everyone on the call is where we are. And I think we could if we had 15 minutes say of just giving out information like where we are with regard to the racial justice resolution where we are with regard to some of the charter change asks I don't know how to condense that, but it just seems like it would be helpful to have an agenda item. That's just an info. We're giving info to folks and bringing people up to speed and and then, you know, maybe folks can email in. I don't know, you know, the best way to bring people to where they need to be but I agree would be a good discussion and one tab on the agenda. Other thoughts. Any disagreements. Okay, so it looks like we'll have the first two items from our agenda today on the agenda again, a charter change meeting. Harry I don't know one sorry to put you on the spot one if we need anything from the council to I think we can just talk about stuff right no matter. And then to if you if you. I guess, I think it would be good to have some presenters there I don't know if that you just want with that to be you, or if it makes sense to pull some other folks in. But if the commission's open to that I think might be good to propose some folks there. And to have people present on the oversight charter change at the next joint committee meeting. Yeah, I think that's what I just heard Karen say is that it'd be a good time to just have an information exchange to get some of us who weren't paying as much attention up to speed I don't know if that was Karen's point but that was the sort of the opposite for the ready to talk about what we've been doing because I, I, I dare say we've all been paying attention to charter change. But but I think we're using, I'm sensitive to using, you know, we're RFP this RFP that what's it for what who's, who's it for what what's the purpose what what article are we on with the work that we have to do to implement the racial justice resolution and some of those back story so it's actually the opposite where we would, we would talk a little bit about where we are, and it would give folks a chance to really think about what they want to ask and maybe we can put some of that together so that we're, we are presenting what we're doing. Okay, sorry, Perry I don't know if I cut you off. No, no, no. Yeah that makes sense. If it's, I mean it could be me it could be. It could be other folks to I also, I guess I'm wondering, do we want, are we thinking that this committee will work on, we'll just review it or discuss it or will we create a proposal like, should I reach out to people like ACLU who wanted to have input over this process or you know should I like not necessarily for next meeting but for like, sort of the duration of the joint committee or is it just like a one time like let's just review it and kind of dig in a little bit or I don't, what do you think what is everyone thinking. I think maybe I was hasty and we shouldn't have people present next time and instead we more start with like do do we feel like we need presenters. Like that we have that discussion on like, what do we want to do do we want to like, start from. Yeah, to make more of a plan of like, who do we need to talk to, where are we starting from what do we want the baseline to be. And to go from, and to have that discussion. We wouldn't just chime in here wouldn't, I think I would suggest having attorney Blackwood, who did the memo regarding all models of oversight. And was I believe present for some of those meetings, she would be a good person sort of present on what the oversight process not specifically the resolution but I think you're asking for. What are the oversight options, or you're asking to take up that specific resolution alone. I, I don't know that I have the answer to that I feel like that's a little bit of what commissioners want to do and where the public wants to go. I also hope that, like, I know that. It's really supposed to help us like very broadly and that was their scope but I also hope just because I think what we also want is some work sessions with the public on this so that this process can be as deliberative but I understand how hard that can be with a 10 person commission where there's already so many voices to then have like other to make that a realistic work session so. And I guess I just want to have a discussion around how we can use Talitha, how that. And then how that intermixes with kind of the folks who have already been working on this, like Eileen like Perry like people in the community and how we want to interact with them, or things like that so that we just make a work plan. I haven't thought about this that much. Because all of this happened yesterday but hopefully we can create a more have to think about a little bit for the next week and then create a more solid plan if it sounds like the purview is to that the joint committee takes this up. And I don't know what the council will feel about that but as I have not talked to the other counselors yet about what the next step was going to be but we'll see. Yeah, I don't mean to. But I really wasn't, I wasn't thinking about that at all I was really more thinking about just, you know, trying to present what we're doing as it relates to, because I did think that the city council would that take up the other part of the discussion which is, you know, where do you go from here with the charter change but I'm, I'm really open to anything I just want to make sure that the conversation is easy to follow for folks who are going to be tuning in and being part of the process. So I'm going to move on with Tulip as well. I mean I think the goal here is to really get the consultancies both of them on the ground. Yeah, so yes I think that having an overall, here's what the joint committee is doing is a good idea. Because it can be confusing. The other thing is the council generally does its work through committees. So I assume that Council Freeman has thought about probably more than the rest of us about how we want to handle this going forward so I don't know what committee it would have gone to but if it was public safety then, if. No, you're shaking your head. I'm not sure because I mean any, any committee or anybody could take it up and make a recommendation or look at the model I think if you're talking about the charter change language specifically. That would of course at some point end up in the charter change committee. At some point but I, I mean I think this body, I mean public safety committee could have taken it up the police commission could have taken could take it up as a project to work on I don't know I haven't connected. I mean I think what I would do is maybe reach out to the mayor's office and see, try to get a sense of where they're feeling like this should go next, and then kind of start to reach out to the council, I think that. I mean, off the cuff like if the joint committee wanted to take it up and work on it. I don't think that that would be problematic but like I have not talked to anyone about it so I don't want to speak for anyone and say oh so and so whatever sign on and said that was a great idea and then. So as I know I think that's a horrible idea and I'm not trying to say that but like it off the cuff it doesn't seem like it's going to, that would be politically contentious or people would be upset about it but, that's incumbent on the counselors, and also commissioners can, you know, we can all reach out to the administration and into the council and sort of see what next steps might be I mean the council could certainly like pass a formal. You know resolution or communication sending it to a body at this point but you know it can also be done sort of informally if there's a general consensus around. Well so you know this body should take it up or this body so you know they can just sort of add it to their agenda and go from there. I agree with Perry it doesn't it doesn't have to go to charge change, but typically other committee that handles the subject matter will do the ground work and go to charge change, like just for the charge change or for some kind like you see really when I was on it was for things that are like just all about the charter. The charter supposed to be kind of like broad not really specific. And so we can do it and then send it to cancel it never needs to go to charge change or we can go to charge change well so I think Perry as the author. Because it needed to be a charter change probably would have ended up there anyway, but you know she's right anybody could take public safety could have taken up. I think like, sorry, before you go Perry anybody who is talking who does not have their camera on make sure that you identify yourself because the public and anybody on channel 17 can only see the person who's speaking. So just identify who you are before you speak so that was Franklin probably know. I guess. So if this body wanted to like come up with the model, then that model could be like transcribed into sort of charter language or it could be debated sort of that are just in discussed at the charter level, how that would be written into the charter. So I think that's a conversation about what would go into the charter as Franklin just been sorry counselor Plano just mentioned and then like what will go into an ordinance or or into, you know, serve departmental directors or sort of all sorts of other policy stages that would implement it but you know when I created the charter language what I created first was a model that I wanted to see and then kind of put it in translated into charter language so, you know if this body wanted to to look at the models as a model we want, you know and then send it counsel or send it, wherever to say, you know, whether it needs to go into charter ordinance or whatever we could. I mean I think we could do that. I don't again I don't know if I haven't talked to anyone yet but I think we certainly could and it makes sense to me for this body to work on that if that's if that's how folks, if folks want to do that. And the public wants us to do that as well. So I'm sure ends up next. Thank you. So, a couple of things, I think whatever we do, it needs to be directed by city council. Correct. I mean we don't just presume that we get to weigh in on this wouldn't it be something where it's given to us. I don't know. I don't know that. I don't know the agenda. Like police commission could just that you could just add this to your agenda if you want to do it, you can do it you don't have to be formally, formally asked. The other concern. The other one wasn't the concern, but I am worried about the work we have to do on the two RFPs on the two set, you know the assessment and the public input. Certainly, I think all of us want to be a part of talking about charter change and what that could look like the concern is, do we have the capacity at this point with what we're about to embark on with the work with the two outside entities. And I don't think we have any clue what kind of work, but I think the community input one could be enormous in terms of how much time this committee should be devoting to it. Oh, sorry, Milo, quick, just quickly. I think that's a fair point, Sharon. I do think I get I don't literally have not thought about this until tonight about kind of who does handle it next. But I do think if there's, I guess, I know that there's been some frustration and some as maybe a grand understatement on the police commission in terms of like how much the council has, or hasn't worked with the police commission historically and like how aligned that has been and not and so I think, I guess, if this does go back, if this goes back more to the drawing board if it's not just kind of taking the proposal as it is and just putting it through the charter change process again, then I imagine it would go through public safety. So to the extent that we take it up, I think you could still take it to Perry Franklin and I to do more of the work in terms of like discussing it amongst ourselves again. I do think that to leave the consultants as an opportunity that the council kind of doesn't have and that the public safety commission kind of doesn't have to make sure that we are also having a way to engage the public to get input again so I think to that extent it would make sense to keep it in this body to some degree. Milo. Hi, this is Milo Grant. I definitely hear the concerns about capacity, but we're going to have to be prepared to make it work because I just, I'm still really troubled about how all of this has gone down and I feel that there was some miscommunication, some lack of communication. We came in too late into the process. So I feel that if we have to divvy up duties, we do have to have a presence from the get go with this next round of discussing the charter change issue. Thank you. Thanks Milo. Any other thoughts from commissioners. Go ahead. So, moving forward with the charter change, I was going to have the police commission look into this, but I was honestly going to wait until after the mayor election, because I believe that this charter change will have to dovetail pretty significantly with the renegotiation of the police union contract moving forward so that they're in line because I've heard some legal arguments against the charter change that was proposed being that it goes against their CBA and I'm not a legal scholar. I don't know how factual that is, but I believe that those two conversations need to happen almost side by side and I think the picture will be clear after the mayor election about how those CBA contracts will go. I was going to personally kind of wait to see how the mayor election shakes down and formulate a plan from there on. Thanks Milo I don't know if your hand is still up or if it's up again. I just wanted to say that that is a very, very good point. There were a lot of, there was a lot of items that were brought up that prevented certain conversations from moving forward because of what's in the contract and how what's in the contract was going to be perceived to be a hindrance. And it became I think like fallback for many people that are against the overall concept of change and shifting of power which is the bottom line is what people are afraid of you know the people who voted against it. This is what they're afraid of they're afraid of a shift in power, or they don't understand the shift of power or they're afraid of something else. You know that's another conversation for another day, but this contract looms over us and it's going to be very, very difficult. And I guess we're going to you know that's something that we'll have to put on our agenda in terms of to be prepared and making sure people know about how the negotiations are going to occur, what's public what's not public. How much. I don't want to say like say I mean jumping on the fact that I have no idea how these conversations start. I think it would be great to have something where we're educated we're educated the public's educated on how this whole process is going to work. And there's some things that we don't want to look at you know I do generally support unions I believe people should have a fair wage I believe people should have certain benefits. But with regards to discipline those few pages are, I hate that word problematic because it gets overused a lot but those few pages are really problematic. And I feel that it's something that really needs to be discussed right now because, as I just said it was something that was a fallback. It was a fallback. It was an excuse. So that's all I have on that right now thank you. Thanks. Milo, go ahead Perry. I find this aspect because it came up a lot during committee charter change committee discussions as well which is just that. You know, city attorney I lean back would did advise us that that her review is that the charter would sort of from for lack of a better word, the collective bargaining agreement and then a few people reach out to me and so that they had that other attorneys had reached out to them and given a different legal review saying that it that they were concerned that it wouldn't do that and so what I agree to is saying, we'll keep it in at this point and then because there's a long public hearing process. We can kind of review that and then if we kind of start to see more evidence that that would be an issue. I think we could kind of strike the language that would have conflicted with the CBA my understanding is that most of it wouldn't have conflicted but that there are a few parts I can just so to be transparent at this point I can just review the folks who reached out to me and ask them if it's possible to get those attorneys to review the language and sort of look and sort of highlight any of the language that they think would come into conflict with the CBA based on their legal review and then get that out to this committee or anyone who's interested in seeing that. So I do think that if we, I'm not sure how people on the, on the joint committee field but like if we want to see this on the November ballot, that means it has to come to council and like, August, I don't know, it's always counts so much more backwards because it has to be worn so much earlier so I don't know people are expecting wanting to see it on the ballot in March, next March then we have more time but I just I don't want to wait too long, not necessarily just this committee but like as a city if we are thinking about getting it on the ballot sooner rather than later just because I don't want us to feel like we're scrambling again I guess is a little bit of my concern but I do hear if people feel like this this committee doesn't have the capacity, you know that's that's fair if people feel like we do and we should that's I'm also open to that. I just do want us to be like sort of. It's so weird with to me with charter changes because you had him have to like plan so far ahead, because it goes through such a long process that I just wanted to be mindful about that and then mentioned the aspect about the conflict with the CBA. I will try to get that ball rolling with doing some research on that. Yeah, thanks. I was just going to say this is a response to chair gommash. I do think it will be one of the responsibilities of the police commission to provide recommendations with respect to the upcoming contract negotiations in the city and the burnt and please also association. And also if you brought up the suggestion that regards to who the mayor is. And so I think that kind of. We don't want to delay that kind of discussion for too long, just in terms of looking with nine towards what's possible because it will still be our responsibility I think to put forward suggestions. So that does some of that does sound to me to be properly the, the domain of the police commission, specifically rather than the joint committee but I do think that kind of looking at additional models of policing and how to incorporate those models into a charter change is, is probably the subject of this joint committee. So I just want to make sure kind of, and I do think that we might have the capacity to do all of that because I agree with what's been said by some that it's important work and that we should. We need to do it anyway so we might as well try to do it in parallel as much as possible. Thanks. Great. So my reflection that is, yeah, I think to some extent there's something we'll have to wait on in terms of mayor elections but I also think it's better to start soon around and later for the points Perry said but also to the points to inform that process if at all. And then, yeah, I think the process going forward maybe to make next week a little bit of a work plan in terms of. It sounds like what I'm hearing is there's parts that it makes sense for the joint committee to work on and then the public safety committee and the police commission will almost work like sub committees of the joint committee just for this issue generally, in terms of, but that we will kind of work on this or thinking as long as I guess. Council and administration are okay with it that will kind of take this on. And then some parts of it that seems most relevant to just the police commission the police commission can tackle, but keep us informed as necessary and then some parts of it that just the public safety committee should tackle. I will also say we don't know what the public safety committee will be in April. It could be a completely different group of people so just so folks know that so it'll be good to have your you all as I guess I don't know when the, I guess that's in May is when the reappointments are. It'll be good to have continuity to the process no matter what. I just want to say this just so I don't hear in, you know, criticism that I'm saying that this isn't an important issue. I think it's incredibly important and I'm not afraid of spending the time doing the work. It's just a matter of the other things that we have been given before so I just wanted to be clear that I, you know, I'm not saying that we don't have the wherewithal it's just making sure that we're working on items in the order we're supposed to be working on them in terms of to do these assessments or the work with the experts will those inform, you know, on the work on the charter change, I don't know, but just wanted to be clear that I, I do think we have, we can do it. Okay. Um, Thanks, everyone. Oh, sorry, go ahead, Perry. Oh, I don't. Did we get to this person in the Q&A who is asking if they can still make a comment. And I didn't know if he was the chair wanted to allow for comment at the stage, or I just. I just saw it. I just, I just see Martha and Jessica. I know I accidentally hit the answer live button which put it in the answer section. I just hit the button. Okay, sorry about that. Um, yeah, if Liam has a quick comment, I'd be happy to do that before we adjourn. I don't think they've spoken. Hello. Hi. Well it looks like Miro isn't on the call so this was addressed to him, but I'm sad I guess I would like to address it to the no votes. So I would like to respond to one of Miro stated concerns which is as follows. Specifically that when the public calls we are able to respond with professional public employees who are trained for the full range of emergencies and needs that the public expects to be addressed. And to that I would respond that murderous cops are in and of themselves a public safety risk. As it stands we have citizens too scared to call the police because there is a very real demonstrated threat that they might not make it out a lot. So I would like to ask what everyone is doing to protect them. I would love to see a police force prepared for a wide range of emergencies. This includes deescalation and that requires removing officers who cannot respond appropriately. Thank you. Thanks. Um, any other commissioners before we adjourn. Great. Oh, go ahead, Shannon. Sorry, did I miss. Did you set a date for the meeting? Oh no. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Shannon. So we can't do Tuesday, the 12th or folks available on Monday, the 11th. Because I know you love back to back beatings. I'm literally free any other night. So set it I'll be there. I have a potential conflict on the 11th. I'm not sure yet. I would just say schedule it and I'll try to make it work. Okay. So let's set it for the 11th at 530 and Randall if there's any way that we could do it a little earlier or later to accommodate your conflict. Let us know before 48 hours before the meeting before Wednesday, I guess. This is Monday, the 11th. Yes. All right, well maybe a motion to adjourn on that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Moved by. Councillor Pauline. Thank you. I will second that. Seconded by. Commissioner. Thank you. Any discussion. Just quick discussion. I know that there was a question about whether or not there was a discussion of staffing. I'll just repeat what was said before that. It's a discussion about the police commission meeting and what was the meeting regarding the police and special council of the police. The special meeting for the police commission. Next week. On Tuesday. Yes. So there will be two meetings. One of the joint committee on 11th and one of the. Police commission on the 12th. So. Members of the public. Please feel free to join that. And the staffing conversation will only be at the police commission meeting. Correct. Yes. And what time is the police commission meeting? Six. I'll post that up for Docs tomorrow. I'm waiting here for one person, but either a six or 630. And that's on Tuesday, the 12th. Correct. Any further discussion? All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. I post. Thank you, everybody. See you next week. See you next week. Thank you. Happy new year, everybody.