 Hi. No, I don't want to cry. It's Friday. Where do we prepare for me to make to hurt your feelings? But I would have to have feelings for them to be hurt. You know what? That is the key. You're right. Welcome, everyone, to the summit of villains where we will be hurting either each other or people in general. Because if we say bad things about these books, somebody somewhere, the authors at the very least will be upset. Hello and welcome to Mara roasting the books I picked for her. That is fair play. If you don't have any idea what's going on when I'm talking about because I haven't posted videos that much in the last couple of months. We did a TBR swap. We were on Mara's channel, like, exactly this time last week where we talked about the books that Mara chose for me to read. And now revenge is sweet or perhaps a dish best served cold. I guess a week old indeed. Indeed. So Mara now, yeah, I don't get to complain if you're mean because I guess I do because like I think I was. And when I tried to hold back, you were like, nope, give it to me. So, you know, even you're holding back, I feel like was not or you're like letting it rip was not as as brutal as I have seen you be. So and we know that like you masochistically love to see me be upset about things. I do like seeing you rant about things. I was doing a favor by hating the books. It's like I feel a little like I have some moral quandaries about this, but I do love seeing you hate things. So it's like you like loving me, hating things. I feel like it's like a cousin of people who like to read dark romance and you're like, I know it's bad. I know borderline criminal, perhaps actually criminal, but like, well, and because usually so and I'm only I'm bringing it on myself when I like invite you to row something I like. But typically you're roasting things that I have no interest in reading. So I can just be a disinterested, you know, enjoyer of the. You know, Ravenbold to then have me read things you you are interested in slash like instead of, you know, over there. I will say folks should go watch that because I thought it was an interesting discussion. But I felt very I actually felt very pleased with myself by the end of that. I'm so pleased that you were pleased. It pleases me to please. Yeah, yeah, I felt like the ones that I was I thought you had a good chance of liking you liked and the ones I was not sure about. You didn't and that's OK. I feel like at the end of it, I felt like I should have been delivering the the end monologue from I think it's in the midsummer night stream where they're like asking like, you know, for forgiveness if we have offended, but that like you've been offended. This was all but a dream and like, don't worry about it. The real win of that stream was whoever coined faded fluids because. No, it wasn't me. I just shouted it out. It was someone in the track. Yeah, whoever can't point that in the chat. At some point, we will have to do a book club called Faded Flush. It will be plagiarizing to torture reading speculative or monster romances. Speaking of plagiarism, this is not what today's stream is about, hopefully. You're you saw or know of H Bomberguys video. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I will ask certain mutual hours that you can probably immediately guess was completely ignorant of this existing at all. Oh, yeah, I was shocked. And I was like, maybe I shouldn't be shocked. Maybe it is kind of like my area of YouTube and 14 million views. OK, thank you. Well, I actually in my last month wrap up, I shouted out anthology. It inspired me to pick up called it came from the closet, which is an anthology of queer horror criticism. So like, if you watch that and you were like, hey, I'd like to read some actual original thoughts about queer representation. And have been stripped of the woman hating. Yeah, yeah, just like thrown in there as a side whenever possible. I highly recommend that anthology. I thought it was very well done. And I it had an amazing essay about sleep away camp, which if you know, you know, and if you have not seen sleep away camp, it is for free on YouTube. And I assure you that saying you have seen sleep away camp is something you will want to have said. OK, an experienced. Yeah. OK, well, anyway, as you said, I think last week, I'm a guy. We're definitely saying on topic as my discord will will tell everyone staying on topic is my brand. I never veer off of topic. I always stay exactly. I'm obviously kidding. So hello, everyone, to the let's talk about first law because it's always relevant stream. And yeah, Mara read some books that I picked for Mara. Surely did. And I presented your notes with them, too. So. Oh, good. Oh, yeah. So we did this last time and I'd like to do it again. If if you are amenable to like say why we picked each one before the truth is revealed. Yes. Do you want to do talk about all of them together? Why you pick them or do you want to do it one at a time? Well, it's in the thumbnail, but like let's let's do a quick like what are the four and then I don't know how we'll decide what order that we go in, but maybe dealer's choice. OK, we have the unlikely escape of your eye heat by H.G. Perry, which I would describe as a kind of an urban fantasy is probably the genre. Yeah, to be completely honest when I read it, because the cover is kind of like parchmenty. I had no idea that it would take place in the present day. So like when I first started reading it, I was like, what? I looked at the cover, my guess would have been a historical fantasy, but I would say it's an urban fantasy set in Wellington. So that was fun, too. Then we have the Mary Shelley Club by Goldie Moldowski, which is why I'm going to say horror or the very least thriller. Yeah, thriller, horror, thriller, something like that. And then we have Good Omens by Good old Terry and Neil. A couple of unknown authors, perhaps. Maybe someone's heard of them, obscure thoughts. Oh, God, I guess a dystopia, maybe might be the genre of this. A humorous dystopia or perhaps a retelling. Yeah, OK, yeah, I'll go with that. Um, and then the Paper Menagerie by Ken Leo, which is a collection of short stories and novellas that are all speculative in some way or another. Yeah, yeah, I kind of think if that's like if there's a single story, that's not I don't think they are, I think so. I think some of them are like just barely, but it's very light. But I think they all are. Yes, a couple, I think would be like more like magical realism. Yeah, like the eponymous story, I would say, is magical realism. Yeah, it kind of walks that line. It's very literary and the it's funny because I just finished reading a collection from Stephen Milhauser, who was like classic magical realism. So it was an interesting, like dichotomy, reading those so closely together. But anyway, and now, side note, I now see why you were like, have you read Paper Tiger yet? And you were like, oh, no, she clearly hasn't. Now I write it, but I go, I guess at the end of the year. And as to is that the your eye heat from David Copperfield? It is specifically the your eye heat from David Copperfield. Yes, the the the premises that the characters come to life out of the books. As the cover shows you, he's climbing on out of the of the book. It's an unlikely escape, but it's not the last. OK, well, I I don't know what order we should do. If I if people in the chat have thoughts, otherwise, my only suggestion would perhaps to be to go in the order that you read them. Oh, OK, yeah. So from most foggy memory to least foggy memory. Yes. OK, so the one I read first was the Mary Shelley Club because I had to take one of my friends to the hospital for a procedure. So I knew I was going to be in the waiting room all day. So this was my waiting room book. OK, well, I will want you to answer like how you decided to start with that after I explained why I picked it for you. But yeah, so I picked this because I mean to opener is that I picked only books that I like, nothing. I didn't do the Mara of like I hated this. Perhaps you will love it. I only picked what I like. Well, I think I am easier to guess what I will like than you are. Maybe, maybe, maybe I'll allow that. So it is a bold strategy of you considering that. But yeah, so I picked this because one, I liked it. And then specifically for Mara, I picked it because we have through book club and buddy reads and things have had occasion to either read things inspired by or just it comes up in conversation thrillers and slashers and those kinds of films. And like, I don't really watch those kind of movies, but Mara does. And so we've read books and I'm like, I hated this. This was all just references to slashers and I don't care and didn't get it. And Mara's like, I love references to slashers, like get them all. And so I enjoyed this book, despite the fact that I am not into slashers. And it does do a lot of like referencing slashers and like that being kind of built into the plot. And so I was like, well, I enjoyed this and I'm not into that. So Mara is into that. So it's very possible that like she'll like this book even more than I did. And I quite liked it. I thought it was kind of slow to start. But like, I was quite into it by the end. So that's why I picked it. And I would like to know, obviously, what you thought, but also why you started with that. So I started with it because, like I said, I knew I was going to be in the waiting room and I was looking for something not too hard to read. So I figured if it's YA, it'll be pretty easy to get through. So it was, yeah, it was easy to pick up and put down if I needed to. So I thought this was fine. This wasn't a favorite, but it was fine. I will say, I don't know that I've ever read something that so perfectly evokes the vibe of the craft to that night. It felt like the movie, the craft from the nineties. Like I was like, the writing craft. That's called right. The four girls who were witches. I've never actually seen it, but I know what you're talking about. Yeah, like it's got it feels like nineties all grunge. That that felt like the vibe, which I was very into. And then it did. I totally see what you meant by feeling like scream because that also felt like a heavy influence. So I really liked the tone and I actually like the ending of the plot. My main critique of this one was that it just like I thought the pacing was kind of all over the place. So like, I think if this had been tightened up, I would have loved this. But if for what it actually was, I felt like it was a little. Yeah, man, when I started it, it was like a two. And then by the end, I was like a four because I was like page turning and like, oh, wow, I'm actually super into this. I went from like possible, ZNF to like, oh, yeah. It really picks up in the last like hundredish pages or so. Yeah. So like, I think if I think if they could have can like cut this in half, this would have been a great day. But like, because I think the writing was really good and it was a cool idea. Oh, the premise is that there's like this. This girl has moved has changed schools as often happens in YA. And it's like this prep school, so it's like all the snobby rich kids and she's not one of the snobby rich kids. But there's like this prank that happens and it introduces her to the secret society of pranksters. And she has had this dark incident in her past. And so like the darkness of the club is kind of like helping her process that. But things go bad pretty quickly. Oh, you're muted. I thought I unmuted myself, but it was unsuccessful. I had a very me pet pee with it is that like, I felt like the reasoning for calling the club, the Mary Shelley Club was thin at best and was there because the author wanted to call this the Mary Shelley Club is an evocative name. But like it doesn't actually make any sense that what they do, they would tie it to Mary Shelley. Like I didn't think about that, but you're not wrong. I mean, I love Mary Shelley in Frankenstein, like one of my all time faves, like what a queen. So like that when people call Frankenstein the monster, I get my pitchfork when people name a club after Mary Shelley for no reason. You know, I have my torch. So I was like, I object to this, but OK. Like it's the fact of this title that got this book to like catch my eye ever. Like in the first place, I would not have read it. It was not called this. So a very good title. I agree that I don't. I'm trying to think of what my title for it would be. Like I'm trying to think of a classic monstery reference to like tricksterishness, like the puck club going to your. That doesn't sound nearly. No, it doesn't have the same ring to it. But it's like the trickster club, really. Yeah, this was supposed to be, but. Yeah, which is not a trickster. Yeah, I think the people are if you're not as picky about like I tend to get pretty impatient with things if I don't feel like they're moving along. If you're more patient with that, I think you might like it better. I think it's a good book. Like I would recommend it, especially I was very impressed with the vibes. I thought the vibes were peak nineties, teen horror thriller. I felt like once it got going, it got going. And then like it kept having twist upon twist upon twist where I was like, what, what, what? So like, OK, like I, you know, I was pretty like in the beginning, but by the end, like I would much rather that than the other way around where it has a really great beginning. And then by the end, you're like, oh, that's old. So like I ended on a bang for me. And I think it's not the same ending as scream. But like I can see connections to how scream progresses. And my one fear was that like I had I mean, I had no idea because I don't really watch movies like that. But I was like, I wonder if like I was like shocked and amazed by the twist in this book. But maybe every single twist is actually just like a twist that's yanked out of a slasher. And Mara is going to be like, called it, called it, called it, called it. I did. I didn't call it exactly. I had an idea. But again, it's because I've watched so many of those like teen horror thriller things. Like it has, like I said, it has some of the DNA. It's not the exact same one. Yes, they definitely need that. Um, the prequel could be a vindication of the rights of women club. I feel like that's also not as jazzy a title. It would be a better club, I think, than these. Well, I mean, an actual Mary Shelley club. It's like either like just interested in Mary Shelley specifically, or is like inspired by Mary Shelley to like pioneer fiction in ways that are unexpected or something. I don't know, like Mary Shelley is a great idea for a club. I don't know what the club is, but taking her as your starting point and building a club around that, I have no issues with that. I would like it to be the club to go spend a summer in an Italian villa. I mean, that's a little out of the budget, but sure. I think it's on grace. That's what our club does. We just go vacation in Italy. Well, in addition to the title, I also really like the cover of design. Like I think it's just a very like I saw that cover and was like, I'm not sure about this at all, but I'm reading it. Yeah, I would definitely read more from this author because I thought the writing itself was very nice and very evocative. And I feel like maybe it's because I the types of YA that I do pick up when I pick it up, which is not often. Like when I'll dip in, I'll obviously dip into the wrong thing because of like, oh, like the excuses for the heroes and heroines. And it's like, oh, they seem bad, but actually secretly, they're like, wonderful and nice. And like they have excellent reasons for having seemingly done a bad thing. I just like get really tired of it because I'm like, I'm a first log early and I want to like be bad. Just be bad. It means make bad decisions. Like they're not even necessarily bad people. And like, I respect books that let teens do some fucked up things. Yeah, do like their brains are not fully formed. They're so fucked up things. That's what I was into from the beginning, was that like this seemed like this was going to be like messy and dark and wasn't going to be like, but actually, like they're great and fine. And yeah, which is in contrast. I've recently read a different YA thriller where it was so clear that the editor came in at the end and was like, but their teens, you can't do this and like completely neutered where the plot was going. And it was like, let me messy, like it's OK. It's OK for them to do bad things. They could have consequences, but yeah. Yeah, I don't need my like stories about the youth to be a teaching moment or a fable, like. And then she realized it was the wrong thing to do. Or again, I think this is done more in like romances where it's like, you know, he's the bad boy, but then for us to ship it, we have to find out that he has a tragic backstory that completely explains and justifies why he seemed like a bad boy. But actually, he's just an emotionally tortured boy. And it's like both. Well, yeah, first of all, that isn't what. But the narrative will treat it as like, oh, well, it's fine then. It's like, well, one, it's not fine. And two, we could just have bad people like just write a write a book about bad people. That's all. And again, their teens. So like, I mean, unless they like actually kill someone in total cold blood, I'm probably not even going to think they're bad people. I'm probably just going to think like, wow, it was a really poor choice you made. I hope you are still young enough to learn from it and correct your actions in the future. Which now is like like nothing to do anymore with the Mary Shelley Club. But on the like on the topic of like doing this with like teen stories, like I also teen stories, I think do this more. But I think romance stories do this in general, where like, we can't just have a woman be like, you know what, he's a great guy, but he's not for me. And it's OK that the other part of this love triangle or or new guy over here is more like my guy. And like that has to be that guy, a like did a bad thing or suddenly turns into like a really like annoying, like abusive person so that we don't feel bad when she's like, you know what, you're not for me. I want guy B because we'll feel bad for guy A unless he's a piece of shit. So like they turn him into a piece of shit suddenly just so that she can be like, oh, well, you're bad. So then I get to break up. It's like, you're allowed to break up with people because they're just not right for you. They don't have to be bad. So the seventh season of Gilmore Girls is a combination of doing something I would like and something I would not like in that scenario because they have in the end of the sixth season, this show has been out for like 20 years at this point, people. I feel like maybe not 20, 15 years. Well, you heard it here, folks. I actually recently finished the like for the first time watching the entirety of the Gilmore Girls and I was planning on possibly doing a video about it. OK, well, so I know all the things you can't spoil me because now as of very recently, I know, well, I will still be vague so it doesn't get into all the spoilers. But what they do at the end of the sixth season is that they have well, they completely change the love interest in the sixth season and make him an absolute monster. So she should just break up with him, but she's too cowardly to do it. So she cheats on him. OK, she then gets with the guy she cheated on him with. And it completely makes sense for them to just stay together. Like they make all the sense in the world. They have great chemistry, better chemistry, in my opinion, than the first guy. But then they realize that like that an audience doesn't want that. So then they do that. They like make him bad all of a sudden. So they do it to two different to both of her love interests. They're like, they make him bad. I mean, the bulk of the video will just be the boys. So. And then. But I do like to your point, I do like that the like ending. Oh, my God, Rory. I'm not even talking about Rory. I'm just talking about Lorelai. But Lorelai does say something in the kind of resolution of this of like, I need you to know, you're the man I want to want, which gets to that idea of like. You are not bad and I wish that you were the one that I wanted, but I just don't. It is. But even that, like, it doesn't have to be that you're so good that I wish that I wanted you. It can just be like, you know, we just we just don't die. You know, like we get along. You've never done anything bad, but like I like guy be better. And that's that's fine. You don't need like when you break up, it doesn't have to be like an at fault break up. You can just be like, no fault, no fault break up. But yeah, PSA is that people can just decide they just don't want to date you anymore. And you just have to deal. But I get so many novels, I feel like, oh, well, we won't root for the hero in breaking up with nice guy A unless we turn nice guy A into an asshole. And it's like, I have some respect for me as the audience to accept that guy A just wasn't end game. And that's fine. Or like, you just didn't have the same, like. Like, you know, maybe you had great judge and that's all you had. Like, whatever. But you don't need to be like, you know, you're not like the person that you'd be a bad father or like you're not responsible with money or you cheated on it. It doesn't have to be like a perfectly fine, kind, funny, charismatic, successful individual who cares a great deal for you. And it's still not be the right guy. And it's OK to say, bye bye. Yeah. But yes, you should make that video. I mean, the video wasn't going to be like, it's OK to break up. That's not the thing. I have such strong and like, I could literally sit here. We could do a Gilmore Girls cast because I have so many thoughts. But to Urza's point, becoming an adult is realizing that Rory was the bill at the whole time. I think, well, part of the video will also be like what I what I didn't did not know going in, because I feel like the discourse around the Gilmore Girls is a this event diagram of like the things that are like in Gilmore Girls and the things that are Gilmore Girls, like pop, like people they say and know and it's like fandomized. So like, yeah, knowing first that and then actually seeing the thing is like very different. Yeah. I didn't watch it when it was on. I watched it immediately. The year it went off, I like caught up because they started streaming it on ABC Family. Me and my roommates, like that was our afternoon appointment in colleges. We would like. I wasn't allowed to watch it when it was airing. The next episode of Gilmore Girls is on today. Everybody be back at the apartment at three. We're watching it. Yeah, I wasn't allowed to watch it when it was airing because. Because it was a single mother. And it wasn't that. It was just that like to my mom's credit, she's not wrong, but like the relationship between Lorelai and Rory isn't necessarily a very healthy one. Like it's not that was the reason it was that like, I don't think that that Lorelai is a good role model. I have more respect for Lorelai than I do for Rory, but not later. But just like the co-dependency is like, co-dependency was like, I think that's what bothered my mom. And she was like, that's not an adult. You need to be aspiring to be in that baby who is just dripping with entitlement. I mean, we love Alexis Blodell. Yeah. Yeah. It's oh, no, it's not Alexis's fault. It's the Sherman Palladino's fault. Yes. OK. So I'm glad that Mary Shelley Club stars. It was being good. Which also Mary Shelley Club could easily be a CW show, which is oh, oh, B.C.W is where Gilmore Girls came. Actually, this would make a great adaptation like a teen. Yeah, for sure. Someone needs to get on that. OK, so moving on from Gilmore cast. That's definitely what I picked for you to read. Number two. Oh, OK. Why did you pick it? All right. And after I say why I picked it, I also want to know why you went for this next. I want to know why the order was what it was. But anyway, so good omens. Little known book, Indie. Indie. Actually, it is not untrue that it is kind of a cult classic because like I don't it wasn't as far as I know, like an immediate bestseller, like it wasn't like a sensation that immediately like topped the charts. So it was like a sleeper hit that like by now knows about. But yeah, so I basically was like, what game and can I force upon you and realize that you've never read Good Omens, which I kind of assumed that you just had read it and like either thought it was like kind of meh. And that's why you never talked about it or never talked about it with me or you had read it and hated it and what I don't know. But when I saw that you hadn't read it because like I feel like that probably would have been my top choice. Had I known that you had not read it and just kind of assumed that you had and when I saw that you hadn't I was like, well, I'm obviously picking that because I'm obviously trying to find a gay man. And then because like you frequently kind of talk about like your background with religion and like all that kind of stuff that I just felt like because I already think their writing is really amazing that kind of like with like Mary Shelley Club or like in particular with the subject matter and like the the lore, if you will, that it's like drawing from would be not only of interest to you but be quite familiar to you. And so like you would perhaps even like it. Well, it'd be hard to like it better than me, but appreciate it in a way that I never could because like I'm not that intimately familiar with what they're like playing off of. So that's why I chose it. Well, I liked it. I thought it was really good. OK, I'm in the entire internet would have come for you know, this actually really makes me want to watch the show. I don't know if I ever will because I'm terrible at watching TV. But I really liked. So I have never I have read one other gay man. Oh, God, which one? Great, you're a book. No. No ocean at the end of the lane. Yes. Yeah. I mean, you'd read like one of my two favorites and had been like OK with it. And I was like, yeah, I think I gave that four stars. And I would give this four stars to. I've never read Terry Pratchett before. OK, I have guards, guards, and that was going to be. Yeah, well, if I may, I think Hogfather is a better first discworld than guards, guards. Well, I want to read it because it's a mystery. I don't think that you should read it for that. It's not very, very good mystery. Well, I mean, there's also kind of a mystery. OK, Hogfather. Do you know what Hogfather is? No, it's like basically night before Christmas ripped off Hogfather, because in the discworld, Hogswatch is like their Christmas Eve and the Hogfather is basically like Santa Claus. And he's like the red suit. Yeah, so he's like disappeared. And so death has stepped in to take over the duties of the Hogfather to like get us through Hogswatch Eve while we figure out why the Hogfather is missing, because like the Assassin's Guild has like been sent after the Hogfather. And so then we like follow people trying to find the Hogfather while death is taking over the duties of the Hogfather. And it's like very fun. That may seem fun. I think I'm going to really like Terry Pratchett once I get into his stuff, because I've always just kind of assumed that I've just never really dove in. I think guards, guards is really overrated. It's not bad, but. Well, but what I liked best about this was the writing. I really liked the humor. I really liked the writing style. I thought it was very irreverent. The plot to me was kind of just like forgettable. Like, I mean, I kind of it's been a week and a half since I've read it. And I like mostly remember what happened, I think. Kind of a mess. Like, yeah, it's kind of like the characters are so great. And like the writing is so fun. So my takeaway was like, oh, I definitely need to read more Terry Pratchett because I'm assuming most of that humor. I didn't remember that from the game in that I read. Being so right. I also realized that what I like about Johannes Cabal, the detective, I think is him trying to be Terry Pratchett in the writing. Yeah, Neil can be humorous, but certainly not really an ocean at the end of the lane. And when he is humorous, he's not so like constantly tossing witticisms one after the other at you. Like, that's not really toss. That is something I'm very much enjoying. I like them writing together so very much because I think Neil is better at like writing a story that's compelling and a world that's like, well, a disc world is cool, but it's kind of just an excuse to like throw things together like Neil like is more is like has like a darker story mind. And then like Pratchett is like got the barbs and got the witticisms. And I feel like them together is like so good. Yeah, I really the writing was my favorite part. So basically what this is telling me is I'd always thought that I should get to Terry Pratchett, but like this is making me want to make that more of a priority. Because I really the writing was for me, like I really like that part. And then I did like all of the like religion components and kind of like, what is it saying about the nature of good and evil and right and wrong and like how different our God and the devil. You know, all of that, I enjoy that as sort of like the themes. And while being like a satire of religion, I feel like generally speaking, when I think of books and movies and things that are trying to like do something like that, not specifically this being a playing off of religion in a way that's clearly like either satirizing or criticizing it, it tends, I feel like to have a more dark and cynical and aggressive tone. And I think Good Omens is so sweet. Like even though it's like kind of like it's ribbing religion and kind of like laughing at it, it's not cruelly laughing at it. No, it's very like loving or it's very like I'm trying to think of how to say it, like almost like you're absurd. You're kind of laughing at your your absurd aunt. Yeah. It's like you are nuts, but like you're I'm stuck with you kind of a thing. Like, yeah, it's good natured. It doesn't feel like it's really biting. So I don't know, I could see how somebody who is religious could still read this and not it's like Jenny and when she is like ripping something to shreds. But she does it like really kindly. Yeah, yeah, I don't think that this would get someone's backup if they're super religious. Like, well, if they're that religious, they would definitely be. Well, I was thinking about me when I was an evangelical. I mean, I think I could have read this in life and like your misguided. But I think I still would have liked it. Like I think I could have gotten on board with this as opposed to Philip Folt Polman. Well, yeah, but to this point, there is like so many stories that like Game and Tells and I think it's in some of the afterwards and interviews or whatever, where they talk about like writing it together and where they would be really sweet. Actually, I really liked the little like notes that they wrote about each other. I thought that was very cute. Well, like specifically as to like how they co-wrote it. Like they're they talked about how like they'd be like, hey, Neil, this bit that you wrote that like I'm going to do something to me. It's like, no, you wrote that bit, Terry. He's like, did I like that? Like they were just like so like in one mind melding that they like couldn't tell which parts they had each written. Yeah. Yeah. No, I like there's some like additional matter in here that I've read and it was very sweet, especially knowing now that he's that Terry Pratchett has passed. It's like, no, this was a sweet little friendship. I'm glad they documented this in a wonderful book that has stood the test of time that I'm sad. Then it forgot to like like, I know that a lot of the show when Neil's been working on the subsequent, you know, seasons, he said, well, it's like based on the notes that they had for somebody writing a sequel, but they never actually got to like write a sequel together, which is interesting. So the show that was a question I had for you. So the show is the first season is this book or I wasn't sure if they were like breaking it up. No, the first season is the first book. And like it, yeah, it could be there. But like they had kind of talked about writing a sequel. And so as far as I know from what Damon has said, the second season isn't really that much to do with like anything that he and Terry planned. It's more that season three is like the plot that he and Terry had in mind. And there were changes in the show that it wouldn't really make sense to go from where the show ended to where they imagined the sequel would go. So it's kind of like a bridging season to kind of like get us from where the show ended to where part two would start. What I explained it, I wonder what the sequel is. I really enjoyed season two, but season two is definitely much more like slice of life. Oh, I would like that. Yeah, because like this, like, yeah, I don't know, this doesn't necessarily lend itself to a sequel, in my opinion, other than just like the world is cool. So they were doing a season two, of course, because Neil is like, oh, he's also like, I feel like I say this a lot about Neil is that he's also very like sassy, but also kind of kind about it. Like when he like sasses people on Twitter, it's never like, like he'll say things that are like clearly like clapping back at somebody, but like in a very kind of like pleasant way. So when someone was like, how like, what are you going to do for season two? Are you just going to make it up? Because like the book is finished. And Neil was like, how do you think we wrote the first one? Yeah, I mean, like, just like pointing it out and being like, dog, I think you have one of the authors still around to talk to you about what's going to happen is like better than you would normally be. The fact that they phrased it like that, they weren't just like, what do you can do for season two? We finished the book. Like that would be like a decently fair thing to say. But they were like, what are you going to do? Make it up. And he's like, well, I hate to bring it to you, but the first one was also made up. Actually, this is actually a history book, guys, based on true events. True and accurate prophecies of Agnes. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I like, yeah, Agnes Nutter and then like the whole like the baby swap at the beginning, like that really just like sold it to me. I was like, oh, this is so good. I love this. It's just so silly, but like in a controlled way, it's not like like they're still very much in control of the humor, which I think is a hard line to walk. Yeah, it does. It just feels like, I don't know. It like the book is cozy, but I also feel a little bit like I'm like in on the joke with Neil and Terry and I feel a little bit like I'm hanging out with them when I read it, they were like teaking together about this like nonsense. It's yeah, so this was a hit. I'm glad that you made me read it. And I do think that it has expedited the timeline in which I will dive into this world. And if you like Neil's humorous writing, like he has more humorous writing. Ocean of the Lane is like quite dark and he does write quite dark things. That's not the only thing, but he also does write lighter things. So if you want to be steered towards humorous game and I'm I can be I'm sure that you are well equipped to help me with any game and needs. Of course, I know you haven't watched the show, but I wonder, did you picture Michael Sheen and David Tennant when you were reading it? No, no, no, I knew that they like I've seen plenty of like clips of them on TikTok and stuff being very charming together. So like I knew that they played them. But no, I'm having read it like if you didn't know the show existed. Excuse me, and you heard like someone had cast Michael Sheen and David Tennant in these roles, would you be like, perfect? Would you be like, I don't know? I don't think I I don't know. I didn't really have a strong image of them. So I don't know. I'd probably be like, oh, they're lovely. I'm happy for them. I'm glad that they get to work together because I think they're friends. You know, that works well, too, considering that this was like a collaboration between two friends. It is kind of sweet. I think that the the leads are also friends. It's just a tribute to friendship all around. Which they added Gabriel for the show, and it's played by John Ham. And there was someone on Twitter. I love that. That's so funny. I think it was on Twitter, but somewhere it was asking game. And they're like my for my friend or my wife or whoever who's like too like nervous or scared to like ask. Everyone has like British accents, including all the angels. Like, why does Gabriel like have an American accent in the show? And Neil Gaiman replied, because he's played by John Ham, who has an American accent. I think is the correct way. I mean, I kind of like that approach and fantasy when everybody can just have their own accent. So it's like, I mean. That's one of my favorite things in Doctor Who for my favorite doctor. Christopher Eccleston is a doctor. I will I will not be hearing arguments to the contrary. But in like the first or second episode where he's like the doctor because Christopher Eccleston has a northern accent and Rose's mom or someone is like, if you're an alien, like, how come you have a northern accent and he's like a lot of places have a north? I mean, like, I like that. I can kind of get it if it's like in a fantasy world. And you kind of it's Wolf Hall. Yeah, like with some consistency, because they're all supposed to be from the same place, like I can kind of get that. But like in this context where. Yeah, the lore is nonsense to begin with. The lore itself is kind of crazy. So like, it doesn't really matter. All right. Well, I'm glad you didn't hate it. Yeah. So this is this was a hit. I'm very glad you made me read this. Um, OK, the next I finished. Oh, wait, quickly about. Did you hear back when the first the show first aired? That like some religious group put up a petition to get it removed. But the petition was for Netflix to remove it. And they got like thousands of hundreds of thousands of signature or tens of thousands and Netflix like tweeted or like replied, yep, we'll get right on that. We will exactly like done and done. You got it. It's off. OK, that's the last thing. I love it when they get I just thought of it because they're on the foot. How many of us are you for Amazon Prime just for it? And I was like, speaking of you knew it was Amazon Prime, but not not everyone knew. Those costumes are why Amazon is now charging us more for whatever. Did you get that notice? I feel like they sent me a notice that let's be real. It's rings of power. That's doing that. That's the one that costs like a billion dollars in episode. Yeah. So. Then I read The Paper Tiger by Ken Liu. And I picked it because well, it's great. I was made to read it in a similar situation. And I just felt like, well, you often read, you know, like fun and trashy and nonsense type of things. I also have the capacity to be a real cerebral girly and to like have, you know, interesting discussions and debates about speculative things, philosophical things, like you have like thoughtful content that's about, like, you know, thinking about the issues, you know, things like that. So I felt that even if I didn't know if Ken Liu's writing would be for you, I didn't know if all the stories would be for you, but at the very least, something in there would kind of like tickle the intellectual in you. Yeah. Well, off. I gave it four and a half stars. Yeah, I would say overall, I would give the collection four stars, but Paper, the titular Paper Menagerie Paper Menagerie is one of the best short stories I've ever read. So for that reason alone, I got the extra half star. That's why I won, I think the Hugo. Like once I saw that, I like at the end, it tells you like, this is one of all these awards. I was like, oh, OK, yeah, that checks out. It's like a wonderful story. And this actually the book, this reminds me a lot of or the writer. This reminds me a lot of is Ted Chiang. I think I do like Ted Chiang's better. I think his stories are a little more consistent. I hated the collection that was given to me. Well, after I was given this to read, then the next round was Ted Chiang. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Interesting, because I definitely think I would if you like this, I would have given you that too, because they remind me a lot of each other. But I like Ted Chiang even better. Whatever collection it was, it was the one that has the story that a rival was based on in it. Oh, I think his other collection is actually better. Because I despised my collection. Well, it may just not be for you, which is fair enough. Well, it was, you know, like my ranting about like wolves and and pheromones. And remember, oh, during our discussion when I was like, there's a serious story that gets pheromones wrong. And that makes me legitimately angry. It was Ted Chiang, so I don't know. I guess, yeah, this is probably just a fundamental difference. For my case, if you told me that this is not real, I'll roll with it. Like what I said when I went not to completely derail this and talk about Ted Chiang instead, but when I was like saying that like because this science is so like gone beyond pseudo and into fantasy land, I would prefer this to just not bother attempting to explain the science of it and just tell me that in this future, it has been figured out to do this somehow. And I will not explain the how of it because it's just it's immaterial. It's irrelevant. What we want to talk about is if that were possible, which I'm telling you, it is possible. Here's the situation. And so many of the stories go into the like specifics of like how this supposedly is supposed to work. And I was like, incorrect, false. This is like pseudoscience. This is misinformation. This is stuff that people on the internet think is true. Like, no, but it's. Yeah. But like when it's like based on real science and I'm like, this would never be possible the way you're describing it because we do know some of these things. And those specific things are not what you're saying right now. I think it's based on science the same way that Good Omens has history that includes the prophecies of Agnes Nutter. But you can't prove Agnes Nutter wasn't there. But it's like I'm I am. When I've entered this fictive space, I am conceding to the will of the author. You know that my going with it is that an absolute zero. I'm not surprised somebody heard you like this and then gave you Ted Chiang. Like that checks out to me because it did remind me of that. But it was interesting because I read this. I can't remember if we were alive yet or not. But I read this right after I finished reading a collection from Stephen Milhauser. This was also a good pick for me by the way of that I just really like short stories and I especially like speculative short stories. And really, in my opinion, there wasn't really a weak story in the collection. There's some that I like less, but like there's no like there's none that suck like outright. None sucked. I will say that I think I found I didn't like his more novella length ones as much. Like I think he did better when he and similar to Milhauser. Cause I had just been thinking that with him of like keep it tight guys. Like keep this to like 20 to 30 pages max. I really like that. She says as she's reading The Grace of Kings. Well, I am. Which I've said before, if someone wants to know. I've told people if they want to know if they should or if Grace of Kings would be for them or that series would be for them. I say that you should read in paper menagerie the story that's, I forget what it's called now it's towards the end. It's a long one. It's the one that's like, it's like a God and it's like spans many years. And he's like working on the railroad, I want to say. A brief history of the Trans-Pacific Tunnel. Yeah, I think that story is the most similar to the type of writing in the dandelion dynasty. And so if like you vibe with that story then you'd probably do well with the dandelion dynasty. The one that I, the last one is pretty long. It's called The Man Who Ended History. That one, I was so, so on. Like I didn't think it was bad. I just, it wasn't my favorite. My favorites were Good Hunting. That's the one with the Fox lady. I thought that was great. And then like I said, the paper menagerie. That was one of my least favorites. You didn't like the paper menagerie? No, no, no, the Fox hunting one. Oh, oh, I really liked that one. I liked the pros in it being kind of like old and fable like, but like the story like nothing for me. Well, like the, oh, here's the litromancer, the litromancer. That wrecked me. I didn't love that one. I just thought it was too, it was too long. This is a perfect example of both liking the same thing but for completely different reasons. Yes, this is the story. Because the litromancer and paper menagerie were like my two favorite stories. I, the paper menagerie is like a perfect short story. And it's, I'm looking. It's so brutal to read. It's brutal. And it like does what it is trying to do so perfectly. And then once I realized that this is who it is on the cover, I was like, oh, which is, I feel like it's also like a cozy twee slice of life story. And then when you call it brutal, feels like incorrect. Like that's not the word we should use for it, but it's brutal. It was like, it was sad. And then when he reads her note to him, it became brutal. Yeah. I was weeping. But I had already been weeping over the litromancer. So then when I then went to read the paper menagerie, I was like, oh God. There's definitely a lot of feelings in this. Like it's got, yeah, there's a lot, but this was great. I mean, I feel like that's a very boring opinion. Like clearly it's great. It's very highly awarded. I was not, I was expecting to love this and I did love a lot of it. Yeah, so. But see, okay, but this is why I get along with Ken Liu's writing. Even when it's not like the most fun or enjoyable to me, he's never like doing things with like pseudoscience in a way that pisses me off like Ted Chang. And cause in like the dandelion dynasty, like technically there's like magic, but like more, it's more so speculative engineering. And like Ken Liu has like built models of the things he's invented in the books to like make sure that it actually functions the way that he's describing it would. And I'm like, yes. I mean, like that's fine. I love that for him. I just, I guess I find that like a little masturbatory. It's like- Well, okay. I would prefer not having- These are just for you. It's just not for me. Like all of that, I always feel like this is for you and not for me, like you being the author, but I'm wrong. I know some people it is for them too. It's just never what I'm worried about in this story. Okay, to be clear, I would prefer to not have all of those details like that are like how something like meticulously like works in a like mechanical sense. But if you're going to waste my time with that, then make it be a thing that actually works because you tested it out instead of literally wasting my time because this doesn't make sense in your fake world or the real world or any world ever. So I'm just been like learning this thing that is nothing. But it's fiction. Again, I go back to it is fiction. So you don't need to take any of it as fast. But if like the mechanics of it are immaterial to the story, then don't tell me about it. It reminds me of like in Jonathan L. Howard writing in Johannes Kabal, like he'll get into like detailed discussions of necromancy. And like he talks about it as if it is science, but I'm very well aware it is not. So like, I mean, to me, that is all the same thing. But this is why we're all different readers because like I just don't like, I'm, if I'm more, my policy is if I'm thinking about that, that means you've already lost me. Like if I'm thinking about the mechanics, it means I'm already bored. Like with what is the, that one we both hated last year, quarter graphic, the cartographer? Oh, the cartographers, yeah. Yeah, that's how I knew that I was, I hated it was because I was thinking about that stuff. And I'm like, okay, if I'm thinking about the world building, that means I'm already out. Like I just don't like this. I just feel really safe with Ken Liu because like he either hand waves it because he's like, it's not important to the story because that's not what this is about. It's about like the philosophical implications of the situation. Or if he's telling me all the details about it, it's because he checked and it sure do work like that. So like. I'm both excited and I'm both more and less excited now for the, for the dandelion dynasty. I don't know how it will go on with that. Well, I read the first chapter and I liked it. Like I was like, oh, okay, this seems good. So it's like, you'll see. The like cultural, cultural, historical, sociological elements of dandelion dynasty are like top shelf A plus 10 out of 10. But there's also an equal amount of just straight engineering. And that's like, I have so much respect for it, but I don't really enjoy that. But I like, I can't really dock it for that. Cause I'm just like, I like appreciate so much that this isn't fake nonsense that you like this stuff. And like, if I cared more about engineering, this is cool as hell. I just like, I was so much rather you go on about the culture and like philosophy and linguistics and all that stuff, like so here for that. But there's like a large amount of engineering. I may skim those sections. It may not be something I spend a lot of time on, but you know what? Good for him and good for the people who want to read that. Cause I'm glad it exists for them, but I'm just. Okay, yeah, that is actually in it. But yes, this was a great pick. All right. Oh, also this story, this is the one, right? This collection. Or there's a story about souls being like material objects. Oh, I love that one too. I was just surprised. Well, see, I love that. That I loved. This was like a book born is like trying to convince me to make merch that says your soul cannot be a cigarette box because like I very much insist that your soul cannot be a cigarette box. And I love that one. That was one of the other favorites. See, there we go. We like things, but for opposite reasons. One cigarette. Exactly, exactly. Okay, so then our last one. We've gone through the most stressful ones. So like if you hated this, I won't be happy, but like it's not like if you hate it, so lay it on me. Oh, I should say why I picked it. Yeah, you got first to go and tell us why you picked it. Gotta say why I chose it was perhaps utterly wrong. I chose it because I, well, I feel like the thing that it most reminded me of and the thing that I think you also have read and enjoyed is texts from Jane Eyre by Daniel M. Latter, Labrador. Yes, Daniel M. Labrador. Okay. Yes. And like you're a classics girlie, so like you at the very least would get the references, which I feel like if I'm recommending this book to people, I'm like you kind of have to know some classics. Like you can't just read this and not know anything about classics. So it's not like you need to know like. A little tedious if you didn't, because you haven't been having to look things up quite a bit. It's like me reading those books that are entirely references to slashers where I'm like. So I figure at the very least, like you would get the references and then like I think enjoy them the same way that I did because similar to kind of like good omens is kind of laughing with religion. This feels like it's like laughing with classics, not laughing at classics. And I feel like as somebody who like enjoys classics but thinks they're far from perfect can like have a good time, you know, laughing at your auntie, you know who you love. So that's why I picked it for you. Well, was I terribly wrong? I like building the suspense. I've really enjoyed this. I thought this was great. I thought I was gonna give this like a four and a half or a five star but then I felt like the middle, the pacing kind of went out the window. For me, it was the ending that went off the rails. I love the ending. I thought the ending was really fun. So we both gave it like the same ishrating but you hit it in the middle and I hit it at the end. I liked the beginning and ending third, the middle third was a little like, okay, come on. But no, I thought this was so fun. Like the writing, when I first started reading it, I was like, oh, I really like the writing and I really like the humor or like the tone of this. Cause like, this isn't a spoiler. This is literally the first chapter. Like immediately your eye heap is out of the book. It's also the title of the book. Like it's not a spoiler cause like. Well, and he like is like holding people hostage and knocking people out. I think she captured the voice of your eye heap so well throughout the book. Before you're just like. Because being like, I'm just like, I'm merely an humble man or sorry. I'm sorry. This is so weasel-ly. It all does to the British people in the audience. I tried and I just, I should not have been trusted to do that. Oh, just so weasel-ly. Yeah. So groveling. But see, I liked how he played into the ending. I thought that was really fun and the reveal, like I don't disagree. The reveal is kind of crazy, but I felt like it was kind of camp and I was here for it. Well, it's even the real, it was just, I felt like everything started getting like too big, too magic, too like when it was like a more intimate, like let's laugh at classic in a speculative way story. And it just kind of went marvel at the end. And I was like, this is too much. I could have liked that direction of it keep being smaller. But I thought it was kind of nuts in a fun way. So I was kind of just along for the ride. Like, okay, this is a lot, but okay. I clearly didn't ruin the book. I still recommend it, but I don't. And this is fun when you tell me a book about brotherly love, which I think is so- Which we learned last week when men have affection for each other, Mara. Oh, it devastates me. Like men, like being vulnerable and like overcoming toxic masculinity to express it. Well, Good Omens is gonna be your jam. I mean the show. It's just, I think it's beautiful, but the brotherly connection in this, like that was so sweet. And I really liked the journey of, you know, the big brother and the little brother and like what it all meant in the end. I just thought it was very sweet. So yeah. And the Lyra references, were they texts from Jane Eyre-esque? It's been a long time since I've read that book. But the one that reminded me kind of of was those Jasper Ford ones, do you remember those? Like Thursday and next, I think is what it was called. Oh, well I should have picked some of those for you because I think you would like them. I'll send you the name. Are they mysteries or? They're kind of mysteries, but they're sort of just like absurdist. Like very similar to this, honestly, in terms of like literary characters are real. Like, well, the first one I think is like Mr. Rochester getting murdered. Okay. Chat, help me out here. Where's my phone? So I can look this up. While you look that up, I also loved that it's not just a commentary on the literary characters and literary like works themselves. It's a commentary on how we read them and how we read ourselves into them and read these characters out of them. You know, that like the characters that are popping out of these books are not just shaped by the books they came from, but by how the reader read the character. Yes, yeah, I thought that was so fun. The air affair, that's what I'm thinking of. The series is called Thursday Next. Okay, I have heard of the air affair, but I haven't read it. Yeah, time, Great Britain circa 1985, time travel is routine, cloning is a reality and literature is taken very, very seriously. But canyons are trying to convince the world that Francis Bacon really wrote Shakespeare. There are riots between surrealists and Impressionists and thousands of men are named John Milton. Let's see here. Amid all this, Akronon Hades, the third most wanted man in the world, steals the original manuscript of Martin Choswit and kills a minor character who then disappears from every volume of the novel ever printed. That's just a prelude. His real target is the beloved Jane Eyre. And it's not long before he plucks her from the pages of Bronte's novel. Over here. So it's a very similar, so I think, I don't know if you would like that or not, but it at least is a very similar book. So it might be worth it. I feel like I considered reading it. Like that title sounds like something that I like picked up and was like, maybe. It's been out for a while now. I feel like I read this in college. Yeah, it came out in 2003. So anyway, read a like title there, if you're interested. So I love all the Darcy's and all the Heathcliffs. Yeah, well, yeah, and to your point, like the interpretation element of like, oh God, like I hadn't thought about, you know, the story in that way, but here's this interpretation of this person. I feel like the book in general is kind of a love letter to like, to people who love classics, to people who love analyzing classics, to people who like studying literature in any kind of way. Like it's just like so many layers of like commentary and ode that I was just, I just thought that even though the ending kind of like didn't do it for me, just the premise and how she went about it, I thought was so clever and so multifaceted and was doing so many things so cleverly that I was like, okay, I forgive the ending being a shit child. No, I thought it, yeah, it was a very clever book and I would definitely read more from this author. I know there's a series from her you really liked that I would give a try. Yeah, this was her debut as far as I know. Oh, wow. Oh, then I think this is great. Like especially for her debut. No, the airfare at Mick Travel says, I thought you missed the air affair in the States. I was a bookseller at the time and it was a very big seller. That's how I ended up picking it up because we were selling so many. I definitely heard the title. I think I read a couple of books from him and I don't remember loving all of them, but that one I thought was pretty fun if I remember rightly. Well, I thought H.G. Perry was just like an autobi perfect author for me because I started with the declaration of the rights of magicians and radical act of free magic and love, love, love that duology so very much and then went back and read Unlikely Escape and was like, you know, not perfect but like really, really liked. And then her newest book, the magicians' nephew is C.S. Lewis. Magicians' daughter? I think it's magicians' daughter. Did not like. And I was like, oh no, we missed it. Yeah. Well, I will definitely be open to trying that duology. I need to make some more room on my series TBR before I get to it, but. I will say that duology is depending on the reader and that the reader's interests drier. Like I feel if you, we were saying if you don't really know classics and you were trying to read Unlikely Escape you'd probably be like, great. It's like. Sure. I feel like Declaration of the Rights of Magicians is like that, but for if you don't care about that era of history, because like it's. What era is it? It's like abolitionists and like talking about like it's like Wilbur Forrest and Robespierre. Like they're actual characters in the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm into that period. So yeah, like the characters you follow in it, it's like an alternate history. So like the main characters are like Wilbur Forrest and Robespierre and Toussaint-le-Vartour and like people like that. And so, but it's an alternate world where there's magic. So it's not like the questions of abolitionism and like freedom and rights are like, like translated into a question of the rights and access to magic. Which I think again is so cleverly done. Well, yeah, I'm definitely, I'd like to try it because I did, I thought this was great, especially now that I know it was a debut. I think this is really impressive. Yeah. Well, I think like enjoy and care and know anything about like history, the shadow histories is like, again, impressive, not necessarily everyone's cup of tea, because if someone, because they're like literally debating like bills in parliament, like, because it's like the issue of the rights of magic. And I'm like, yes. But if someone is like, oh, like, I kind of get it. Yeah. It's like when people complain about the trade negotiations and the prequels for Star Wars of like, yes, it's like that. We want to talk about that. So this is how liberty dies. Yeah. But yeah, so I think you did a good job on all of these. Oh, wonderful. You didn't just buy as a single one. No, I am working on a reading project right now that I think is going to break your heart. So that'll be my recompense for saliva sensation. Well, you'd actually finished the rest of first law and after the first three, you're like, whoo, it's all downhill from there. Can't tell you, you'll have to find your way. The constant anxiety. But this is not where I'm getting my revenge. Cause I thought these were, I mean, the one I liked the least was this. And I still thought it was good. If I had to have guessed how you would rank them before like you read them, like the, I thought you wouldn't hate the Mary Shelley club, but I was like, perhaps you will adore it just because you adore slashers. I don't think it's like a good enough book for it to be someone's new favorite, but perhaps it'll just like tickle you the right way cause you're into that so much. So like maybe it'll be an all time fave, but like at the very least it'll be like a fun time. Yeah. So I didn't have like mega high hopes. I was like, maybe it'll just be the right book for the right person, but yeah. Well, it's a good, I think it's well written. So I mean, this is the order I would put them in with this being the best, this being the least best, but I like them all. I would recommend them all. I mean, they're fun. What a relief. And I think they were very good choices for me. I think so too. They made, all of them made sense as picks for me, not just like generic. For any of them where they like, well, we talked about your eye, I hate them thinking it was historical, but besides that, were there any that you were like, not necessarily good or bad, but you were like, oh, I had a totally different idea going into this about like what this would be. I didn't think that this was good. I would call this more horror, like just from the tone of it. So that surprised me a little bit. And you expected more thriller. I think I thought it was a mystery. Oh, okay. And I don't really think it's a mystery. I think it's a thriller into horror. There's like mysterious unknowns, but it's not a mystery. It's not like, yeah, I wouldn't think that. Oh, who done it? It's not a who done it. Right. I thought this was historical until I got into it. I always, I guess I just didn't realize, I think one of my takeaways is I didn't realize how influential Terry Pratchett is on books from Britain. Because the writing, I was like, oh, this must be where this humor, like this, the way that it's translated to page. It's a little bit chicken or the egg also, because it's just like this is a very British sense of humor that he's a product of. But like it reminded me so much of books that I know were written after him, that I'm like, I think he must have been like the encapsulator of this version of British humor. But like he's standing on the shoulders of the likes of Oscar Wilde and, you know, folks like that. Yeah. Oh, I mean, like he comes from a long tradition, but it's like there's a specific kind of voice and style to the humor that I think has existed. But like, I think he must have been sort of the like, here's how you translate this into a book. Well, he's also so prolific, like there's so many Discworld books. Right, and he's just so well-read and loved that I, anyway, it just crystallized for me of like, oh, I think he is much more influential than I realized on other books that I like from, that are kind of like fantastical in some way from the UK. Like I also love one of the Rook, the humor in the Rook, which is one of my all-time favorite books, so. I love the feeling when you read Good Omens as well, that it's a little bit that like, that Azira fail is Neil Gaiman, I mean, is Terry Pratchett and that Crowley is Neil Gaiman. Which is, I don't know, I like that, I think that's sweet. I just, I do find it very sweet, the friendship there. And the brother, I just a sucker in general for people just like having lovely relationships with each other, be they romantic, brotherly, friendship, whatever. Indeed, indeed. It's again why I think they compliment each other so well, like their interests and skill sets that like, even though obviously like Neil's my fave, like I do love the injection of like smarmy British-ness, but not that Neil's not British, but like that particular brand of humor, like sprinkled into my dark Gaiman story is just like, oh, it's like fusion food, you know? It's like, what's not to like? Like it's two flavors that went together very well. Yeah, so I wish they had collaborated more. Yeah, now that we're talking about it, I feel like I need to bump up my rating. Yeah, you're sure. Or like maybe I need to take my kin, because like now that we're talking about this, I do think I liked this better than this. Well, I think it's hard with short story collections because like an individual story is like the best thing you've read, but then it's the collection that you're rating, so. Yeah, like it's like the individual, like the paper menagerie, that short story was the best thing I read out of all of this. Like that I think is one of the best short stories I've ever read. Yeah. But I enjoyed this more, I think. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I'll have to think about it. I don't, I wouldn't like specifically anti, but like I don't really like never wear that much. So there's that. But it's not a situation where it's like, oh, I don't like it, but it's like, it's a Mara kind of book. Like I don't really think that either. One that I would like to read from him and might be my next Neil Gaiman is Stardust because I love the movie adaptation. He likes the movie better than the book. Oh, interesting. Well, and then you made me read Let in the Mist, which I very much enjoyed. So I kind of- I do think that Stardust is much improved by reading Let in the Mist. So like I read it before and after and I liked it a lot better after because I was like kind of got what he was doing, but it's still then as opposed to just being kind of a mid book, it became a pay limitation of a great book which bumped it up. But wasn't great. Nurses agree. Movie is better. Okay, so I won't read Stardust because I love that movie. I think it's really fun. The movie is a lot more like Princess Bride like in it as well. Yeah, it feels very- The book is not that way. Okay, interesting. The book is like Let in the Mist, but like stripped down to more, a more bare bones version of that. Okay. Well, so maybe not. I do want to read American Gods at some point because I love the library at Mount Char and so many people have told me that if I like that I should read American Gods. I have no, I genuinely have no idea. I guess if my prediction, if I have one for you reading American Gods is that whether you like it or hate it, there are aspects of it, if you don't do an effort that you would say this is brilliant about it, but whether that translates into you thinking the book is a great or enjoyable read, I do not know. But there's things in it that I think you will appreciate. Interesting. But it's a very long book to be getting through. You don't enjoy it. Well, maybe I'll make it a library book so that way if I am not vibing, I can just bail. I also don't like any audio version of American Gods, so there's that. Isn't there a TV show? Yeah, and they canceled it before they finished it and it started out okay, but they were like stretching it out way too much and it was, and I'm to this day livid about how they treated Orlando Jones and it's a testament to my love for Neil Gaiman that I'm not like out of love with Neil Gaiman for having been party to the treatment of Orlando Jones, but yeah, don't recommend the show really. Okay. The graveyard book is my other favorite. It's so, so good. I'm kind of afraid to read that because I've heard so many discussions of it. Oh, like you're spoiled for. I know what happens and. Well, I mean, it's a jungle book retelling so everyone knows what happens. I know, but like I've heard like, this was back when I listened to a lot of, before I watched booktube, I listened to a ton of book podcasts and there was like this time where a bunch of them were reading that. So like all, I listened to book, like probably five different book clubs on it. So I feel like I wouldn't really come to it fresh. I don't know. I don't know. It's just very like, like I didn't expect to cry reading it and I definitely cried and I cry every time I read it. And the, there's a couple of audio books of it and one of them is read by Derek Jacobi and it's very, the other one is a full cast, which is cool, but it's more like, you know, wow, a full cast, but like Derek Jacobi feels like Grandpa is telling you a story, you know? It's also quite dark. I remember one of the book clubs that read that, they also read The Snow Spider by Jenny Nemo at the same time and they said it had a lot of similar vibes. And I did read that and that was very lovely. No, I've never heard of the author or the book. It's a, it's, I think it's middle grade and it's about this little Welsh boy who like lives in this little like small town with I think his grandma and grandpa or something. He has like a, it's sort of like a fey kind of magic. I feel like, I remember it being very touching and very like hurt for me. I think there's a good chance because I like everything basically that Neil Gaiman does, though I don't necessarily always think everything is perfect. Like obviously I just criticize Stardust, but like, I think that you might get along better with his middle grade, which I also think is excellent. And I mean, Graveyard Book is one of my two favorites, but like he also writes like much shorter fiction, like for like picture books, you know, like for kids and like short store, like fortunately the milk is like a novelette for kids. And yeah, like obviously Coraline is quite well known, but I just feel like the way that you like Percy Jackson, it's not like Percy Jackson, but like you like love a book that can have like this, like it's like, it's for children, but like we can love the like sweetness of it or the heat of it or something that's like poignant about it. And I think that Neil Gaiman, like one of the things that I love about him in general is that like he's somehow like retained the memory of what it is to be a child. And like he writes for the child that he was and clearly still is. And he's got so much respect for children. So like when he's writing for children, he's not like talking down to them. He's like with them in like being educated. I well done middle grade has become one of my favorite things, like I don't know. It's just, there's something really poignant about like, I don't know, like Uncle Rick does this too. He, like it's funny for kids. Do you know what I mean? Like the humor, it's like not, but it's not like diary of a wimpy kid version of funny for kids, which I feel like is a little infantilizing or like. I'm not familiar with the story, but I've heard of it. It's like very like lowest common denominator kind of vibe versus I feel like Uncle Rick's humor is a little more like puns and like he does silly things, but it's a little less like kind of like you're saying, like acting like kids are stupid sort of. Like he, I think he always assumes that his readers can get the pun or get whatever. Well, I mean, I also know the game in like, he's also just like, well, what did you like to read when you were a kid? It's probably not the thing that your parents were like, oh, this is good children's literature. Like that's probably not what you were excited about. And so like, as far as I know from like how he's talked about his writing process or specific books that he's published, it's like less that he's decided to write a kid's book and more that he's decided to write a story. And then when he's done, they're like, hmm, this seems probably better for kids. Or like, this is clearly a 500 page tome for adults. Like, you can kind of tell when you're in the project, which it is, but it's not that he like sets out to like, and there was some debate about Coraline. You're like, is this for kids? Like, this is kind of freaking dark. And like, cause he loved to read dark, scary things when he was a kid. And he's like, kids like to be scared. And like, it was like similar to Harry Potter where like this manuscript was submitted. And they were like, I don't think, I think this is too dark for kids. And then like the editor or the publisher is like, kid, read it, I loved it. And they're like, okay, well, it's for kids. And then they talk to her later. She's like, oh no, I was terrified. Like that was the scariest thing I'd ever read. That's why I loved it. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Well, and Ina is saying there's something so sweet at some time so deep and dark about good children and middle grade stories that cannot be done with adult fiction. I think some of it too is just that in middle grade in children's fiction, there's often a premium placed on friendship and family relationships, but not romantic. Yeah, which you guys know, I love a romance, but like there is something nice about stories that center those kinds of relationships and like really explore the value of those. And like that's the moral is that like friendship is great. Like I just, I think it's beautiful. It's nice, like sometimes it's nice to just read something that's about like, the moral of the story is like, rely on your friends and like be there for them when they're having sad times. It's like, oh, thank you, Neil. Thank you, Uncle Rick. Thank you, whoever. If you read Graveyard Book and weren't touched, I would be so shocked. Oh, I mean, like I said, I know what happens. So like even just listening to things. But it's like knowing what happens isn't the same as just like the way he phrases things where like I know what happens because I've read it before and every time I reread it, like the way he phrases something, I'm just like, that's so true. But yeah, so I love, yeah. And I'm trying to actually, Ashley from Book of Shroem is inspiring me to try to like read some picture books now and then too like for like, for children, children, because like, again, I think, well, it is, you know, I don't know, sometimes I think like, you know, even as adults, it can be good to just look at beautiful pictures and like think about it. Well, I always recommend that if you're getting like illustrated game and books to buy them from the UK, because mostly his stuff when it's illustrated in the UK, it's a different illustrator than America and it's mostly Chris Riddell or Riddell that does the illustration for him and his style is just like so perfect. It's kind of like how Pratchett and Gaiman just like work together. Like Chris Riddell's art and Gaiman's style of storytelling are just like so perfect together. So like his version, because there's you can buy, fortunately, the milk in America that's fully illustrated for kids. And it's still like a cute, fun colorful book, but in Chris Riddell's version of, fortunately, the milk where the whole point of that book was that Neil wanted to prove that you could write a story for kids where the protagonist is not a kid. The protagonist, unfortunately, the milk is the dad. And in Chris Riddell's version, he drew the dad to look like Neil Gaiman. Yeah. Yeah. This is making me think of like all the picture books I have in my cart right now. Maybe I should just go by the wall. You should. Because they're just... I mean, life is short. Be happy. They're very, they just, I don't know. I think you've only read Ocean at the end of, yeah, Ocean at the end of the line. You haven't read any other game, right? No, I haven't. That's the only one I've ever read. So the answer to have you read Sleeper in the Spindle is, no, because it's not Ocean at the end of the line. That is what I popped my game and cherry with. And it's not like... Sleeper in the Spindle, which is like a large picture book is not for children. But it is like a fully illustrated, like hard, like big, it looks like a kid's book, you know, in terms of like the size or whatever. And it's like fully illustrated, full page illustrations, but it's not for kids. Yeah. It's like hashtag, not for kids. Please do not buy this for a child. Well, Neil tweeted once, because he, when he's passing book shops, he'll stop by and be like, do you have my stuff? I'll sign it, like just as, because I'm here, like, you know, and he, and then he'll tweet, like, hey, I just stopped at this bookstore and I signed some stuff. So like, if you wanted to go there to get some stuff, I was just there. But so he had done that. And this bookstore, because he does write a lot of children's fiction, had put all of his fiction in the children's section. And he tweeted, do not let your child read Ocean of the Inns of the Lane. No good can come from this. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Lauren's book by any stretch of the imagination. So. Yeah. I did, I picked that copy up when I was last in England, because I don't know. I always say that England always has the better covers, which I know is not always true, but. There is an illustrated version. It's like an anniversary edition of Ocean. I don't know if that's the one you read. Mine's not illustrated, but it's just, it looked magical, more magical than the version we had. I think Sleeper and the Spindle might be like within reach. Oh, it surely is, as is Odd and the Frost Giants, both by, oh, this isn't Latvian actually, but it's the same illustrations. That's right. I have Latvian gaming as well. You have Latvian. Well, like it's like fully illustrated like a children's book, but it is not much illustrated. Okay. Well noted, but I'm not a child, so I'm allowed to read it. Yeah, it's like it's meshing together, like Sleeping Beauty and Snow White, and then it's like quite dark. So I think if we had to pick a winner, you did a better job of picking books. That's what ultimately matters. Victory is mine. But then if you had to pick a winner in terms of enjoyment, I think I won because I didn't disenjoy any of them. I have to celebrate all the harder to make up for that. Great. How hard it is for you to pick a book you're going to like. I think the fact that I had a 50% hit rate is actually very good. Well, especially, again, you kind of rigged it by being like, I don't think you're going to like this, so I can't be in trouble for when you don't. Protecting my feelings. It's like hedging your bets. You're like, if I have to place bets on this, like I'm betting you don't like this. And so secure in the knowledge that you will not like this. Here you go. No, I didn't know. I thought Bear of Winter you possibly could like. No, I was thinking more slave to sensation. I know, I was saying Bear of Winter, that was a genuine like, I didn't like this, but there is a chance you could like it. There's always a chance. I, yeah. It was so pretty. Yeah, definitely. One of the most stunning books out there. Then again, what is that Stephanie Garber one you were showing us that was beautiful and you hated it? Yep, but I still enjoyed more than Bear of Winter. Jokes on that. Well, I would repeat this exercise again, so maybe we'll have to do another swap. Despite knowing how you like to torture me, I too would subject myself. What kind of faded fluid would you like this time? You've had a minotaur, you've had a wolf in a... I thought y'all decided that it was time I experienced nodding last time. I would not do that to you. I feel like you're not ready. I didn't know you had limits. I would only do that with your full and willing consent, because that's a lot to sign up for. Well, you'll have to figure out how to torture me. I can't really, like, I don't think Galakta asks his victims what instruments they would prefer. I feel like maybe some kind of alien romance might be fun, because then you can get mad about the science. Oh, wonderful. So that I can... You basically distract me with pseudoscience, so I don't even have time to be upset about the faded fluids, because I'm like, what the heck? Like I just started this last year, I started one where there are aliens that are kind of like kangaroos. So that might be kind of fun. Wait, I don't know if it was you or someone else or I'm making this up, where it's something about them being in the pocket and like that being like part of the... No, but I did read a different one and it was like that, and it was the least sexy thing I've read in my entire life. I must say being in a kangaroo's pocket sounds comfy, but doesn't sound so clear. No, in that one, it's an author who like all she does is interesting world-building stuff. Like it's always very interesting the different species she comes up with and like what the politics are, not like to the extent that you would enjoy, but for, you know, alien romance. It's interesting. You have to have your alien romance goggles on. And this human woman is made into this like dryad type alien, and the gestation is basically the pocket situation, but she's a human woman. And so this like tree baby climbs out of her pocket. And I was like, I have never been less turned on in my entire life. Like what are we doing? I'm just picturing Groot now, climbing out of her vajayjay. It wasn't out of her hua. She had like, I don't know. She's a human woman. I know. That's why I was so confused, but when she- Okay, cause I'm mad about the science now because she wouldn't just develop a pocket. They, that's a part of the, that he gave her a mating bite. I don't care. It wouldn't, it wouldn't change your DNA. It's space. We don't know. Oh, okay. Like if you told me they were like, we gave her surgery to make her compatible. I'd be like, okay. But if you're just like, oh, she just became compatible through like natural forth. No. Yes. No. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. Yes. And also this plays into my known fungi phobia because like it was lots of plant alien. And I just, it was, it was a romance. It was meant to be a smutty romance. And I was like- Listen, I don't have a fungi phobia, but I do not want to fuck fungi. Yes. It's not a feeling I have. I don't want to, that's not for me. But it's for someone and that's great. Spider shifter, I have read one of those before. And I don't, I don't think I would do that to Liana. It was a lot. Did you enjoy it? Not really, but like I appreciated it as an intellectual exercise by the author to try to make it work. I felt like it was a well done one. I just didn't like it. I'm glad to be giving that a miss. That kangaroo alien's sounding pretty good right now. Yeah, but less legs, the better. Less legs, but one tail. But the tail's not visible when you're looking directly straight on. I mean, have you seen a kangaroo? Also, I did read the folk of air and he has a tail. So. There you go. Especially when they're pre-hensile, they can get, you know. At least make it useful. That's what I say. It's like Chekhov's pre-hensile tail. If it's there, you gotta go for it. That's not really the kind of useful that I was thinking about. It's a romance. It's a smutty romance, Liana. What other kind of usefulness came to mind? I forgot for a second who I was talking to. I was thinking of like the utility of having another appendage, but. Well, that, I mean, yes, exactly. Me too. Just thinking like while you're banging things. Like if you need something while you're banging the pre-hensile tail can reach over and grab it without interrupting what you're doing. Or you can have more deftifying balancing, I feel like, if you have a tail that you can. But like if you need the lube, tail can grab it. You know? Like you don't need to interrupt what you're doing. Yeah. Useful. Yeah. Now you're thinking like an alien romance writer. No, because I feel like the tail would not be used for the utilitarian purpose of like reaching for something that's out of reach. That's not what it would be used for. Well, in some positions, yes it is. Like I said, like reaching for an inanimate object. Oh, okay. That they just, you know, go grab the condom, grab the whatever. Oh, they're not, they're aliens. They're not using condoms. Oh, I forgot. How else would we develop pockets that we don't naturally, yeah. Yeah, obviously. Faded fluids, the logic. Faded fluids. I mean, you guys, you gotta rally for this. This is gonna be a future book club opportunity, I feel like. But I did love to, I love it to say. Good job, good job on the snack. And I would never, well, I was gonna say, I would never subject you just to that. I have subjected you to morning glory milking farms. So what, you know, I understand you may have doubts about my limits, but. But also, I just feel like when I, I'm not crazy yet. When I ran to about like the science in these faded fluids books, just, I mean, I ran to about Ted Chang as he's like a lauded, award-winning author. Like he's not making the cut for me. So like the shifter is in the fluid, they just stood no chance. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I'll be giving you, I married a tree man anytime soon. Thank you. Yeah. From the bottom of my heart. Thank you. Unless it's like. I wanna reread it, so. Unless it's like a cozy romance about treebeard finally finding an aunt wife. I would read that. What a lovely story that would be. Oh, I'm sorry they died. Oh, they didn't die. We lost them. We cannot find them. In the bus. No one knows. Oh my gosh. Well, we have a book club here in. Yes. Not this weekend, but next weekend, right? Yeah. I'm already thinking that it's the weekend. So like, yes, like next week. A week from tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. I need to read that. But I figured it was pretty short, so I could get through it pretty quick. Same. Yeah. I read like three pages though. I'm very excited. Me too. I'm also excited for dressing up. I know. I've gotta confirm my. My bits. Do we mean? My outfit bits. Okay. Because in fairness. The pieces of my outfit. The non-innocent use of innocent words is a youth thing. Not a me. Yeah. No, I know what I'm going to do with those bits, but I don't yet know what I'm doing with my outfit bits. From gay men to fated fluids must be a moral image. We agree. Our interests are tantalizingly diverse. There is a short story. I think it's in Smog and Mirrors by Neil Gaiman, where like the entire short story is basically just like two people fucking. But like they like are talking the entire time. Like having a conversation. And then the reason he wrote that story was that like people never talk in sex scenes and that's so weird. So he was like, what if I just wrote an entire thing where like they're just talking the entire time? But he was like, I'm a British man. So like it took me so long to write this story because I felt so uncomfortable writing this story. I imagine him like standing awkwardly in the corner and like handing it to the editor and just like scurrying away. Just like writing it like. Well, he doesn't read in a romance because people do talk in sex scenes, but. But I guess in more movies, it's always just like cuts and montage. Well, and women they take off their bras in most movie sex scenes. Cause that's not allowed. Yes. Yeah. There's also some very kinky stuff in American Gods. Maybe that would be your favorite part. Who knows? Well, your definition of kinky in mind may be different. So. I don't, I mean, like, okay. Concept conceptually. Like I think I'm not exaggerating, but like specifics of like, like graphic description of like, you know, that kind of like, I don't probably not, but like the fact of what is happening. Like what they are doing is. Okay. Interesting. So if that entices me, I don't know. I mean, not particularly, but I don't want to give the impression that it's like the driving thrust of that. I don't want to use that word, that it's like the point of the story, but like it's in the story. Yeah. You know. The emphasis. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, that is, isn't that like a Freudian fear? What's, yeah. Nope. But it's written from the perspective of the man being eaten. Does he like it? At first. Your spider romance didn't do that. Although it should have cause like spider, like widow, black widows eat their mates. So. Well, the dude was the spider. So. Oh, that's unfortunate. Yeah. But he had a lot of legs to like, pinner. All right. Yeah. On that note. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Oh, I might, I'm going to say, I can now actually say my pleasure because it turned out crisis averted, friendship saved. Yes. My discord was already like, oh God, if Mara hates good omens, we might have to decide that Mara is not above Lena in our estimation. Oh, thank God. I'm glad that we... You're still their favorite. Yeah. My status has been preserved. Your fan club remains your fan club. No. All good picks. We'll see how long they last though. Because like I said, think I'm about to break your heart a little bit. So. I mean, you've read first law trilogy and didn't despise it. And I just can't imagine anything you would do, anything you could read and dislike that would upset me more than that would have. So I'm just like, it can't be that bad, whatever it is. Okay. But I'm sure when I find out what it is, I'll be like, why did I not think of that? So just know I'll get no, like already this whole week, I didn't get any sleep. I thought I could sleep now, but no, there's a fresh reason to not sleep. I mean, you know, I got to keep you on your toes. All right. Well, mission accomplished. Yeah. Well, happy Friday. Happy weekend. Happy Friday. And happy, happy reading. Yes. And happy seeing you. I like this every week. And I've seen you. Yeah. Lots of good Liana done. So that's good. Lots of good Mara time. We didn't dress up, but next time. Next time. All right. Well, everyone enjoy your weekends and evenings and readings. And we'll see you next weekend because you're all required to show up for that as well. Yeah. We'll be taking attendance. Indeed. Good night, everybody. Bye.