 This is first place. There's very much 31st. And we are as is traditional going to talk about. Education. Generally and S 287 specifically this morning. The host. I believe. I'm going to talk about what we're doing right now. And I think that we may be watching on YouTube, which is great. So they can take advantage of the. Walkthrough of S 287 that. Jim. MRA is going to do for us. And. Or I turn it over to Emily. I see if anyone has any questions about the day or. I don't see anything. So Emily. Thank you. Morning, everyone. So we have S 287, which is very exciting. It's exciting. So we have objects to work with. On the wall and on our committee page. And so Jim is going to give us an old fashioned walkthrough. So Jim. Good morning. Good morning. Let's start with on your website. Posted is an overview document. Let's start with that. Just give your sense for what's in this bill. And it has page references to the bill. As well. Do you have that up? We're getting there. Just let me know when. As passed by the Senate. The document I'm referring to says S 287 overview. Great. We're there. Perfect. Okay. So for the record, Jim Daimler, as console, we are walking through this overview. Of S 287. Before we do the walkthrough. The first section one is findings. How we got here. And then we have the first section. And then we have the second section. So I'll bring them. I was 23. The way inside 59. Task force and support. Section two. Are the goals. And the main goal is to fulfill Vermont constitutional mandate to ensure. The all students who see. Substantial equality of educational opportunity throughout the state. And then there are five. And then there are five goals. And then there are five goals. Second to improve educational outcomes. Third to improve transparency. In the distribution of financial resources. Fourth to enhance educational and financial accountability. And fifth. To improve oversight of Vermont. K through 12 public education funding system. Those five goals will be used later in the bowl. When the art is determining the successes and failures of the act. We'll be testing against these five goals. Section three is. Just a small change to the definition of long-term membership. Section four. Amends the definition of poverty ratio, which is used for the coming year. And the weights. The change is to. Determine whether a student is from an economically. Deprived background. Change in that from eligibility for institutional benefits to. Those. Those ability to receive. Free or reduced price lunch. So it's to be clear for the next year starting in. 2223 school year. We've changed the way. These students are. Determined. And then next year, section four, a. Changes it further to say. That going forward in that year and thereafter. The test would be. Whether the students. Filming income. Income is a hundred and eighty five percent or less. Of the current year for a part of poverty. Poverty level. As determined using the universal income declaration form. And the fifth section is requiring that for. To be. Ready for use in the twenty three twenty four school year. So we have. Just summarizing. We have an interim change. For twenty three twenty two twenty three school year. Using. Nutrition benefits. Using a free or reduced price lunch. So nutrition benefits. And then they're actually changing it to a hundred and eighty five percent. Of the current year. So that's a good. Of the current year. Using the universal income declaration form. Section six is kind of. Main section, I guess. Of this bill was to sort of just. Add the weights. Section six. On page two. Requires that. Beginning at the beginning of fiscal year. Twenty nine. You'll see there's a five year transition. Where you're using an average. Equalize people's. And what this is saying is the absolute transition. Is over. And fiscal year twenty eight. They're absolutely going to use it through your average. Going forward. Section six B. Repeals the weights. If. These are simply just to update them in five years. So this is kind of a poison. You will. You'd have to take some action. Either to update the weight. To repeal this repeal. This is designed. To incentivize that. Somebody to take some action. In five years. Section seven requires ELL. English language. Learner services to be provided by school districts. And provides categorical aid to them. If they have twenty five or fewer. ELL students. Section eight. Eliminates small school grants. And allows. Merge districts. Whether more voluntarily or. By state board. State board order. To continue to research C. Mergers support grants. Unless they get. The small school weight. So they get out of the way. Or. Mergers support grant. Not both. Section nine. Nine. Ten. Six or seven. Ten are performing changes. Just to eliminate references to small school grants. Section eleven. Twelve or thirteen. Or twelve. They are all. Transitional provisions. So eleven. Is saying that for the. First three. Years of implementation. Twenty four. Twenty five. Twenty six. Equalized pupils. For any given year. Of those years. Will be the five year average. And then for. Twenty seven. It'll be the four year average. And then for. Twenty eight. I'll be the three year average. Then. Twenty nine. The rapture. I'll continue to be a three year average. And that's designed. Obviously. To smooth the effect of these changes. Section twelve. Suspends the excess. To many people. For any given year. Of those years. Would be the five year average. And then for fiscal twenty seven. It'll be the four year average. And then for fiscal twenty seven. And then for fiscal twenty seven. The excess spending penalty. And three point five percent. Hold harmless provision. For the five years. Transition period. And section twelve. A. Suspends. The required. Specified. Language. For a school. Budget ballot. For the transition period. Section thirteen. Requires the. A. Suspends for geographic information. To assist. A. And determine the number of persons per square mile. And that's part of the weight weighing test. Section fourteen. Okay. Three. The cars. The state. Are. To perform an independent audit. That identifies the successes and barriers of the implementation. Of the act. Looking again. Again. Those five goals. And that report is due back to you. On. By December fifteen. Twenty twenty nine. Section fifteen. Creates the new. Education funded by the committee. That would monitor for much education financing system. That analyses and perform. Specified duties. Fifteen agency appropriation for that. For the reimbursement. Section sixteen. Requires collaboration by the agency. And JFO. In order to update and maintain. The weighing factors and the systems that support. Those factors. Section eighteen. Eliminates unused exceptions. The excess. Spending penalty. Nineteen and twenty are just. Minor. Minor clarifications. And cross reference change. And six and twenty one. Is the aggressive date. Section. The following page is. Walk through the calculation of the homes. The property tax rate. This is for your reference. So for example. We talked about it. The fact that we're changing the definition of. A bunch of membership. In the bill. You can see it's seven of the two. Here's you can find out where you are. In the process of calculating homes. The tax rates. I'm happy to go through that. If you want to. Or I can go through the bill at this stage. Any questions before the. You go through the full bill. Okay. Okay. So now we are looking at. S two eight seven as passed by the Senate. I'm looking at the unofficial version. It begins with findings as we talked about. So it starts with. To these in detail, but trust. Bring them. Talks about. Hold on a second. Yeah. We haven't missed it twice here. I don't know if they're the same or different. Yeah. They are. Even though that was possible, it should make no difference either. You didn't. It wasn't. Secret. It wasn't an official. Thank you. Sorry. I see. I point out the fact that this is the unofficial version. There's a page number of references and the overview. Correspond to this version. Thank you. And Jim, will you go somewhat slowly? I think the devil's in the details here. And so we're. Reading along. Sure. Yep. So we're going to start with findings. Section one. And the first finding is Ron Brigham. And the fact that. There's a constitutional requirement to offer education services to students. In Vermont. B talks about the section of law that was put into place after. Act 60 or by act 60. Recognizing that right in statute. And then. Subsection C on page two. Talks about the fact that students come to school with just similar learning needs. And backgrounds. Any different types of support. And then D talks about act one simply three. And commissioning the. Way in fact, study. E talks about the report. Issued by UVM and Rutgers. And talks about the results of that. Findings. That the weights are. Outdated. And needs to be updated. On page three talks about act 59, which created the task force on the implementation. I guess may not be. I'm just going to ask the question and it may not. I may not need an answer at the moment, but I'm curious. I'm actually reading the finding some of those lower than you. So apologies, but. I'm curious at some point to know if. We decided to use the other option, the cost factor adjustment, whether the findings need to be rewritten or whether they're foundational to either. Method. I believe they are foundational. Method. I believe they are foundational to either method. Okay. So, so the. Thank you. So we're in F on page three. Talking about the creation of the task force on the implementation. Of the people weighing factors report. And it talks about the, the recommendations from that report. And I also recommend two systemic change options. And a series of the provisions. Opting weights or adopting a cost equity payment approach. So those are the findings. Any further questions or comments before I go on. Thank you. Okay. So the goals of this act. I will be through these specifically because they do play back into the art function as well. So it says by enacting this legislation. The assembly intends to fulfill. Remotes constitutional mandate to ensure. The all students receive substantial equality of educational opportunity throughout the state. The legislation is designed to one increase educational equity by ensuring that the national resources available to local school districts for educating students living in poverty. Students with English language learning needs. Students in small law schools. Students in sparsely populated school districts. And students in middle and high schools. Are sufficient to meet the cost of educating these students. To to improve educational outcomes of students and the circumstances. And categories identified. Just above. To ensure that financial resources tied to the cost of educating these students are available. The local school districts. Three to improve transparency. In the distribution of financial resources to school districts by simplifying. The school funding formula. And better time educational expenses to student needs. For. By enhancing educational and financial accountability. Ensuring that equal resources are budgeted and expended. For the education of students and in these circumstances. Or categories. And that regular evaluation mechanism mechanisms are utilized to assess educational equity and outcomes. And five improve oversight of a month. K through 12 public education funding system. Very creating a new advisory body with experience to launch a new advisory body. And that's a great way to do that. And that's where I recommend improvements to the system. Okay. The next part of the bill. Deal with changes to the determination. I'll wait to membership. Section three. Has changed to definitely have a lot of long-term membership. And. Change on page five. Okay. So that came from Brad James. But this means to the, the average of the district's average daily membership. Excluding full time equivalent enrollment of state play students over two school year. So what this is saying. Is that lunch from membership is a two year average. Of average daily membership. And you use the current school year. And then this provides that. Language. This is how, how students in small schools are counted, which is a bit different than this two year average. And it's explained later on in the bill, which we'll get to. And this is done differently because. I understand Brad James. Calculates this part differently than the other. Other ADM figures. Our last two members. Two years. You have to explain why, but I'll go to that, that, that difference. When we get to it. The section four. This is the change to the poverty ratio, which we use. During the next year. So before we update the weights. And 23. So you still have this language about the poverty ratio. What this is doing is changing. How students from economically deprived backgrounds are identified. So now it says, says before that. It'd be a person who resides with a family receiving. Nutrition benefits. Languages by struck. And now it says. It means a person who is eligible for free or reduced price. To be lunch. Under the federal acts. And. It still has here, which here. Says below that says a person who is not eligible for free or reduced price lunch, but for whom English is not the primary language. So, So also be counted in the numerator of the, of the ratio. That will be changing and in 23 and beyond. But for 22 to 23. Because you're not changing the weights yet. That remains in place for that one year. Um, Section four a on page six. Is again. Can I call you there? Sure. Okay. So. Count of 2223. Is what applies to the FY 23 fiscal year. The. I'm not sure if I understand your question. This way of counting. That is just for one year. That's the free and reduced. Lunch. Plus the non-FRL ELL. Students. Yeah. Yeah. Correct. Tax calculations. Correct. Okay. And then there's going to be a different method in FY 24. Correct. And the new weights that you're going to get to don't apply until FY 24. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. One more question. Just to follow up on that. When one of those counts taken. For FY. For the next school year for FY 23. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. We're usually taken, I believe. In October. We'll come to that. Actually. We'll walk through the weight. The weight. Waiting section. And it gives you the dates by which. Okay. Good. I'm just trying to reconcile that with. With the setting the tax rate for the tax bill that goes out in September. That's a. That's a different year. It's a tax. That goes out for next year. Okay. So. The next year. The counts in October. Are for the next. July 1st. So that'll be for the FY 24 school year. That's correct. So. Agreed. So. No, that'd be except so. So in terms of what we're talking about here, which is. Yeah, let's. Brad, can you clarify? You were not applauding. You were just raising your hand. I was trying to raise my hand, but I missed. Yeah. Yeah. Now I'm trying to lower everything to get it off. Brad James, a state of education. This was a question I had because what we're doing right now is to answer a representative derpy's question. These counts come from the student census, which is the, the 10th or the 11th through the 30th day of school. So that if the council are really taking place in early September through early October, that's when the council are really being done. Yeah. So that's what we're talking about. And I think that at this point is taken that the counts from this year and last year, because that's what we use for this. Future equalized pupil count. And I've calculated them using the old DCF numbers. If, and this is my question. If, if we were, if, if we were to implement this now as, as Jim has been talking about, then what that would essentially mean to me, the equalized pupil counts for FY 23, which would in turn change tax rates, would in turn change to change the yield. It can be done. I just want everyone to be aware of that. I guess, I guess I'll stop at that point and see what people want to say and ask. Yeah. So if we're talking about the fiscal 23 tax rates, we need to, the, it is more efficient to use data that we already have. Is that a simple way of understanding it? I think, I think so, because these are the numbers that I've put out already using data that we already have. Yeah. Because we don't have much time. We've got more time. The process to go back and the number of students. Jim can you have any recollection of the conversation that led to this sort of single year this construct the way it is. Sorry, asking me. Yes. I think it came from. I can I jump in Jim. Yeah, I think how equalized people are counted and how it's written it can can get very easily confused and I think I kind of think that's the situation here. We, we spent the whole a good portion of time in the task force talked about using FRL and I think that's what Jim was following and I and if I read this I missed this in terms of when it was being implemented such otherwise I would raise it as an issue. And so if we were going to move to the universal, you know, let's hold this for problem solving and keep on going with the bill now that we understand that this is something to fight. Thank you. Stop myself there. Jim, back to you. Okay. Okay, so we are on page six section for a. And again, I was sure the bill says now on for. I'm sorry, I have a clarification question and I'm going to forget it if I don't ask it now, but the Senate sits as a person who is not eligible for a reduced price lunch but for whom English is not is not the primary language to negatives. And I just want to be sure I'm understanding correctly that I'm, there's no wine so I'm, I'm still in section four at the bottom of that eight there. So that person who is not eligible for free or reduced price lunch gets counted once in the numerator, but if the person is eligible for free or reduced price lunch and English is not the primary language do they get counted twice in the numerator or only once. The way I think I would express that is that the students are counted twice. They're counted separately. This is the current law, current law. They're counted separately with the weight. And they're also even if they're not living with a low income family, they're counted again in the poverty ratio. And increases the, the number of students who are deemed to be living in poverty or economy deprived, because your county yellow students even if they're not economically deprived here as well. He's looking. So Jim is Jim is correct if I can try to slightly different way and a number of yellow students are already counted in the poverty count. They're they're classified as poverty and so they've picked up in our DCF numbers that we have. As Jim said there's also the yellow way which is separate so they're counted over there too. They counted twice. So they, they're essentially counted twice. Yes, all of them. And the only treat the current law in this paragraph is switching from snap to fRL for just a single year. Okay, and then there's a different construct going forward. Okay, so. Okay, so for fiscal. We talked about what happens for fiscal 24 and beyond, we look at section for a on page six. And here, the change is scale away from poverty ratio altogether it's not faster in the new weight weighting system. So I've done that way. So this says, now is that people from economic background means a people whose family income as determined under the universal income form is 185% or less of the current year, federal poverty level. And then the next section is going to require that the universal income declaration form is in place for the fiscal 24. Are you going. Just another bit of a timing question about the current year federal. I don't know when they update is it with their fiscal year in September. When they update the federal poverty. I don't know that either. Maybe Brad does. Somebody's something we need to understand. I do not I do not know but I can I'll ask and see if I can find out. That's essential. Yeah, I just, I may be I'm confused but it seems to me like between section four and section five that were that we're using fRL form and the universal declaration form for f by 24. Yeah, you're you're moving to to change the soil address was f by 24. The test is different. So now it's a hundred and five percent or less of current year appeal. I can't. You're moving to this universal income declaration form under which that whether or not the student qualifies will be determined. Okay, but it is it, but that would have without apply to the f y 24 f y 25. So apply to f fiscal year 24 and beyond the 2324 school year and beyond. Okay. All right, I gotta just read it. Because that's like 24 budgeting is coming up here in the fall. Yes. Okay. It is. It's not kind of in the 185% just following up that's the same right like fRL snap they all use an 185% so that that number is consistent in both these methodologies. Right. I believe I'm not sure about institution benefits. I believe that the OSU really for free and reduced price lunches is our blow. 185% That's the same. Brad and Brad is nodding, but you can't see him. I'm unmuted. Excuse me. Yes. The, the, the this one hundred and five percent or less is, is kind of across the board from lunches or freedom is lunch and such. So this only come back to this time in question, but I just need to ask it because I'll forget the universal income declaration form once this is fully implemented. When do people fill it out. And when, when is that data going to be available to workers making all these decisions in a typical fully implemented school year. As opposed to this transition. I can, I can find that out for you madam chair, I'll put that into the email about send to Rosie Krueger because she's the expert on an area on the child nutrition such such. I was going to ask about the federal level but I'll ask her that question to one of these things and I think they're done at the beginning of the square but I don't know I'm not sure they're done monthly or if they're done once or whatever I think I think it varies the thing that different programs happening. I'm asking is that I thought it was our own state for the universal income declaration form. I'm not talking about federal form I don't think I'm talking about this form that we're going to use at the state level which understand other states use so there must be a model out there, but I'm curious how the date how the information is going to flow. I'll have to ask Rose and see what what what she what she says I don't know but I understand it is for the universal income back or whatever it's called is for our state. Okay, and some districts are using that form already so there's a way that people are doing it. Yeah, but yeah, the timing. The consequences. Yes, absolutely. Back to Jim. All right, section five we've touched upon, but we'll go through it in more detail so it's the universal income declaration form starts with attention language that that your intention is that beginning in the 2324 school year and thereafter. The determination whether a pupil is from an economically deprived background with change. To what we talked about 85% of us of current year FPL. Data collected from the universal income declaration form. Subsection be talks about the fact that form is used in other states. And, and that the benefit. It creates more accurate people counts. And reduces stigma, at least to be released. And C is the operative language which says that our before October one 2022 a we should convene a working group that includes school staff and hunger and nutrition experts to develop the universal income declaration form. This will be fully accessible to all Vermont families. This will be implemented statewide for the 2324 school year. Until that performance implemented school district show continues to determine whether people is from an economically deprived background, using it for free or reduced price school meals. So just continuing the thread of timing here was. I feel like the intent here, and the very last sentence of section C was that we might not be ready to use the data from this form for FY 24. And, and in fact, if the form is only if there's a group that doesn't even sit down to talk about it until October. So back to the question of when do parents still out the form. Thinking it will be hard to have that data used for FY 24. And in fact, maybe we'll maybe we won't be using it was that was that the thinking or the intent. I can't speak to the intent of brave. And maybe it's what David struggling with to, I think what's really messing me up is that in some places we're talking about fiscal year 24 and some places we're talking about 2023 school year and I think that's just, I'm just the way that the Senate did it I just have no trouble. Just getting my head around that whole thing. David kind is your question about whether that last sentence until that form is implemented, etc. Are you to me I'll after you asked your question I started to read it as that gives some wiggle room for districts that haven't been able to implement the university to actually conform fast enough to default to the free and reduce numbers. Is that Jim does that language give that space for. I think it does. The forms required to be implemented for the 23 214 school year. So, it seems consistent. Those two sentences. This is, I think this is a question for grand. transition period has some districts using the form and some not. Is it is, do we have to use the same data in order to be able to calculate the tax rates or. Some schools use them now is great but they're using them for for bills for it's not for determining the tax rate, but the tax rate is a statewide construct and I guess I just asked the question of whether everybody has to leave at once, or stay back together. And whether there's going to be an issue of some districts are lagging. It's not going to be everybody did the same thing at the same time. It's a lot easier from my perspective it's a lot of people to understand and it's a lot easier to make sure that everybody's on the same footing, as you're suggesting. When when I read subsection see there that one that Jim was just talking about that you're questioning the way I read it was I read it as that the form will be using the f y 23 24 or school year 23 24 so f y 24 school which means that those counts will be available for the f y 25. Yes, it's how it's how I was reading that. And that kind of goes back to what we were initially talking about that you flagged earlier on the on the f rl account for current law for before before it got changed before it gets changed is I was kind of thinking that we'd be using f rl. And again I could be wrong. I was thinking we were using f rl for f y 24. And then we'd be using this new form for f y 25 is how I was envisioning things going forward. But we but again that that's open discussion we can come back to that. I think at some point soon we're going to need a whiteboard with some dates and making just all getting in the same. Same day. Just briefly. When you were first going through the summary, when you first began, I was wondering why there was this hop in the skip. What I described as you know from to the to the university come form over time to get to the poverty calculation I guess you could say and as Janet said a few minutes ago. And just because we're using, we want to use numbers that we actually have, which seems to make good sense but I agree now that if we all did the same thing at the same time it would be more straightforward more accurate. If we figure out the timing for that it's just, it won't confuse people, particularly on that school board meeting saying why are we doing this, you know. So that's where we were. Thanks you Jim, I think for section six. We are, we are so when section six this is at the bottom of page seven. And this is a long section. It's where the weights get applied. So this is kind of a recipe, if you will draft as a recipe. So it guidance to a we and business managers as to how this we've done. Subsection a which was on for two or three pages is saying the table. So what we're doing here is we are establishing how many students are on each of these categories, the waste will be applied to. So, Subsection a, the heading is determination of average daily membership in some group of this. And I'm going to read through this with you. So first on before the first day of December, during each school year, the Secretary of Education shall determine the average daily membership. Of each school districts to the current school year move us to the count that happens. Within a 20 day period of the beginning of the school year. So it's the average student counter in that period. And the, the Indian termination shall list separately these various categories of students to which weights will be applied. So first, resident pupils and pre K. Second resident pupils in K through grade five. Third residents pupils and grade six to eight. And then fourth resident pupils in grades nine to 12. And then to says on before the first day of December same timing during a school year. The Secretary shall identify resident pupils from each from economically deprived backgrounds as defined in each school district for the current school year. Three. Before that same time frame first day of December. The Secretary shall identify resident pupils who are English language learners as defined in each school district for the current school year. By the same date, the Secretary shall list all school districts that have a population's entity, measured by the number of persons per square mile, residing within these geographic boundaries of the district as of July one of that year, equaling fewer than 36 persons per square mile. 36 to 54 persons per square mile, or 55 to 100 persons per square mile. And then that says that population that see that should be based on information from the remote sensor for geographic information. And that says, using the enrollment data determined as a virtual one. This for each school district that has a low population density, the number of people is each of these categories above a 123 so this is saying that by the low population school districts first, and then identify the number of students in those population school districts to which the waste will be applied. Two questions. One, why is that one October first and everything else is December. It's a good question. If I may, because because enrollment data is is from the student census and enrollment is defined as the number of students that are enrolled in the school as of October 1. And then my other question is, and maybe this is too finicky but the most recent us census data meaning the annual us census data or the, I can't say that other words, but every 10 years census data. I don't think that to be clarify, I would think. It says. No, it's not going to be. I read that to me, I thought since it's every second every 10 years, so maybe, maybe there's more to it. There's, there's sub census, census that, but we can we'll figure that out and we can talk to someone from the office. Oh, census, census, census. Okay, sorry, Jim. So we are on page nine so we're on subdivision five. And we're still counting soon groups. This is on before the first year of December during the school year. The secular show this off school districts that have one more schools that have an average two year enrollment of fewer than 100 world pupils, or 100 to 100 to 250 and world pupils. So this into a bit of a complication, because the way the two year average here is done for counting small schools. It's different than the usual definition for long term membership. So usually you do two year on account is current year and prior year. And makes up a long term membership. That's not being used for this category, this category to average to your role means the average enrollment of the most recently completed school year so not the current year but the previous two years. So enrollment means the number of people who are enrolled in a school operated by the district on October one, and the people count, whether the people is full time or part time. That is a wrinkle in this whole thing it's the only exception to the usual way of counting. I believe that this year because of the way Brad counts this population. And non legal language. No. Yes. The way the way the small school grant currently works and it was Jim was describing is is it is a two year average enrollment that determines the current class sizes or grade sizes I should say not class. And what we're doing is we're just following what current law says is that it's a two year average enrollment, and that's those will be the numbers that we'll be looking at and using. And the difference between a two year average enrollment and the average of two years. Is that what we're, is that the difference. I don't, I would interpret them the same way I mean you could parse them out and probably make a difference but I would interpret them the same way. When, when, when I say two year average enrollment what that means to me as I'm looking at, you know what do they have in year one and year two and I'm averaging if I say the average two years to me it's kind of the same thing. And so how is that different from ADM. ADM is entirely different for, for several reasons. First of all, enrollment is where they are enrolled, it is by by the school not by the school district that's paying for their education. Our ADM is by district of residents. So it's where the kids live and what school district they live in whereas enrollment is what school that school they go to as opposed to school district they reside in. ADM is a 20 day census period, and it is a full time equivalency for that 20 day period that's where ADM comes from. Enrollment is an actual headcount. If you were to go into a school on October 1 and actually count the number of heads in there that are students. That is the enrollment. ADM is not a headcount it's similar but it's not a headcount because it's 20 day average. And if you had three kids who are homeschooling but coming into school for art classes and gym classes but they become one enrolled students. Because it says something about full time in here. I believe they would because I'm thinking in terms of ADM I'm trying to take it forward to enrollment. In terms of ADM if a homeschool student goes to a school and takes a course they're partially counted. I think that would apply to enrollment so in this case if they were there they would be counted as a student. And can you clarify why we want to use enrollment rather than ADM for this particular category. Because enrollment is at the school level and and so that's what's actually telling you what a small school is. If you try to do with ADM it wouldn't necessarily work because we don't necessarily know we're school districts sending all other children in terms of ADM. I'm sure that that are buried somewhere in the background but ADM ADM is a different beast than is enrollment and enrollment is school specific whereas ADM is not. David did you have a. No I think you just answered it thank you. Just to be clear why do you use ADM instead of enrollment. In general you mean for. What's the question. Yeah yeah. We use ADM because that's by the district of residence. That's who's paying for the school for the school children for the students in that district. And that's where the tax rate information is coming from it's going back from the school district the member towns who belong that belong to that school district. If we tried to use enrollment for that. We've been missing we've been missing all the tuition students because they're not they're they're they're separate from this to a large degree. But we would also then be having we'll be having a county if I think of South Burlington for example we'll be taking a lot of the students from grant the Grand Isle County who are going to school and other counties were going to school in South Burlington. But there would be more kids there in terms in terms of their their account because that's where what the enrollment is showing is those tuition students also whereas ADM is not showing tuition students showing where they come from and the home school district. And it's not just the district that has to pay for them it's also the district that's legally responsible for their education. Correct. Thanks. Yeah. Jim, we're back on you again. Okay, we are on page 10. We are at the top of the page and subdivision C. So again we're going through to identify the students who attend our enrolled in these small schools so it says sees as using to your to your enrollment. This for each school district that has a small school the number of pupils attending that small school. Okay, so now after you've gone through all a which we just finished we have all all the students listed in these categories so we know how many there are each of these categories to which ways will be applied. The next step and be is to determine long term membership, which is simply taking the current year on ADM figures and averaging with the previous year. So long term membership is a two year average of ADM. And so it says secretary show determine the long term membership for each school district for each people group described in a above. So now we have a two year average for those groups. We are going to identify the weights. So we are in subsection C determination of weighted launch from membership. This is the secretary show determine the weighted long term membership for each school district. And then first, the secretary show first applied grade level weights, each pupil included in long term membership. So count as one multiplied by the following amount. Grade 11 pre K is a negative. Because it's a point four six counts you have to subtract one to get to point four six. And then for grades six through eight is a positive point three six, and grades nine to 12 a positive point three nine so, for example, a student in grade six will count as 1.36. Which are starting from a base of zero. Then, to the secretary show next apply a weight for people from economically deprived backgrounds. These people include a long term membership on in that category will see the additional weight, weighting amount of 1.03. The secretary applies to wait for ELL pupils. They get a additional weight of 2.49. And then next, the way is applied for students living in low population density school districts. And so, it depends on on population density numbers so for each people included in that category. There we see additional weighting amount of point one five with a number of persons per square mile in the school district is 35 or fewer point 12 with a number of people per square mile in the school district is 36 or more but fewer than 56 or point oh seven with a number of persons per square mile in the school district is 56 or more fewer than 101. And then on page 12 top. Lastly, the secretary applies to wait for students to attend a small school. So it's it's dependent dependent you don't get this great unless the number of persons per square mile in the school district is 55 or fewer. So if you meet that requirement, and the school district has a school with an average two year enrollment of fewer than 100 pupils, then the school district shall receive additional weighting amount of point two one. So if you meet people included in the small schools average to your enrollment, or if there are 100 or more but fewer than 251 pupils, then the school district receives additional weighting amount of point seven raised people included in the small schools average to your role. It says that the school district districts weighted lunchroom membership to equal lunchroom membership as determined above under B plus the cumulative weight signed by the secretary under the subdivision subsection so this is saying you're taking a person's one person and you're adding all these weights up cumulatively on top of that and the only negative weight would be for pre K pre K student. So, I'm going to pause there. And Jim my understanding is that you need to jump somewhere at 10 o'clock. Yeah, actually do. So, this is a perfect. It seems to me like a good moment to take a break because we're about to slightly transition right. Sorry, I could get through this one section before you go on because we're almost done. Let's do it. Okay. So, that was just been taken out and D and E, which is the overweight weighting process. The whole harmless provision episode here so you have a 3.5% hold harmless. So we're going to adopt guidelines as now for make sure students are clear identified. H front log in as is by this work 15th, the final discrimination because people assess we made. And then what's new here is I. I know that it says, it's the intention of just a general assembly to consider whether and how to update the weighting factors, not less every five years. And if they are updated on the implementation date for the update weights be delayed by a year in order to provide school districts with time to prepare their budgets updates to the way it factors may include the calibration, adding or the main weights for any combination of these actions. So when we stop there. Thank you very much, Jim. We'll see you at 1030 and Brad I wonder if I could ask you a question before we take a break. Thank you. So, I've already lost the paragraph but there's a paragraph right near me on my computer that is about. The secretary sharing the weights with districts and districts, hypothetically commenting on them and then the agency correcting them, and that's current law. And so I am, I know that when we sort of were sharing work on the task force we had a number of districts say, wait, wait, that's not right. And so I'm curious if you've ever experienced any districts coming back to you for corrected weights. I think, I think what you're referring to is what's in current statute where there's a time where they can basically for all practical person amend their EDM counts. It's not it's not the weights per se it's the counts that are below the weights that the weights get applied to I think that's what you're referencing. So each determination of equalized people is on December 1 of each year the secretary. Okay, so I understand where you are now. Okay, so, so what what's going on is again the salt coming back and census collections. What happens is the district send their information into our data side, the data team over here they they manipulate that they they look at the data they corrected through their checks and balances, and what they're doing is they're making sure that students are not counted in the same place twice the same student. They're doing think they're doing things like that. And so the current law says that we publish ADM counts on December one user they're getting they're given to our, our folks use it by early November, they're kind of going back through the through up till about the time first, then they're published and then people see what they are and then people say wait that's not right. I forgot to put in a grade, which has happened in the past. So, you know that that's when they find things and so what what we do is then we kind of kind of allow those changes up until that that that stop of December 15 for ADM counts. So, you've had people sort of correct ADM counts in terms of they forgot a great but you, you haven't experienced districts coming and saying our weights are wrong because you miscounted poverty or something like that before. The, I mean, there's a lot of the question on poverty because those numbers come to me, they come to me from a black box they come from DC. They, but no, it's, I guess I try to remember and was ever said anything about ELL I don't, because that's the count we pull from the census and I don't think anybody has, because they're the ones putting the numbers in. It's, it's quite possible that they put in the wrong number and they realize it after the fact that they let us know it's it could have happened I don't remember off time it it probably has to be to be frank. I don't remember all off the top of my head, because it's kind of an iterative pop process I kind of do these. I try to do these calculations two or three times where they're finally throws them around the 15th. And I'm, and I'm asking for. So, when we were sort of doing the task force report and I think Brad and I presented a few times to superintendents or school boards and we got feedback from districts who said our poverty counts are wrong and the tables are sharing. If they're wrong in here they're wrong under current law and you've been, you know, sort of experiencing the challenges of that up until now and so I'm just sort of curious how much people have been paying attention to it up until this point so thank you. Yeah, and we have we have had going to that question. We were statement we have had people say that across the weather sending kids to New Hampshire they don't know if they're in. They don't know if they were there, whether they're responding whether the report does correctly or not. So that's something I need to work with them on. And then the other fun part of current law that I'm curious about is section I. The secretary shall evaluate the accuracy of the way it's established in the subsection at the beginning of a biennium. Yes, have you ever experienced that happening in your time. Yes. Unfortunately, though, because of, I mean, we have the pre kindergarten weight we have the secondary weight current law. We have poverty, and we have ELL those those are the ways we have the only one that I can, I can really look at and identify which I've done in the past is secondary weight because we don't I, we don't collect enough information for the poverty data we don't collect enough information for the ELL that those weights have never been changed. The, the secondary weight has started out when Act 61 past it started out at 25%. So, in current law said 1.25 weight. And that subsequently was started to be brought down by to I think, I want to say, when I first, when this first passed, I can't remember when it was quite a while ago to maybe to maybe 1.17 then we will drop to 1.15 or currently 1.13. And the only way I could do that was by looking at those districts that have secondary students at a union school and have elementary students at the town or union school and that that's where those numbers came. And that's not a good way to do it. It was the only data we had, though, in order to do that to meet to try to meet that section of statute. And we haven't done it for a couple of years because of the weighting study. I'd be curious about sort of what data you would need to make regular recommendations, and you don't have to answer that question now by any means Fred. Thank you. Yeah. Anything else for bread on this section before we take a break.