 Welcome to the Brooklyn Museum. My name is Lauren Celia. I'm the director of public programs for the museum. It's truly an honor to stand here before you for the first time at this podium since February 2020. And on behalf of the museum, but also as your neighbor, I want to extend our deepest condolences for any hardships, any losses that you and your loved ones have suffered this past year and a half. I also want to shout out some healthcare workers and essential workers that I know are here in the audience with us tonight. We appreciate y'all and thank you to everyone here for coming out and continuing to support arts and culture and showing up for a community, especially our members. Thank you, it means a lot. We hope you'll continue to see the museum as a place of refuge, inspiration, joy, and comfort in the years to come. Now for the reason for our gathering. We are so excited to welcome you to tonight's Brooklyn Talk, The Sartorial Vision of Michelle Obama. We're gathered on the occasion of the Obama Portraits Tour and these two culture shifting artworks surely need no introduction, but they're here on the screen just to remind y'all. For the first time in Brooklyn, we're excited to present the official portrait of Barack Obama by artist Kehinde Wiley, who you may remember, had his first solo show here at the Brooklyn Museum. And of course, the portrait of our first lady, Forever First Lady, Michelle Obama by Amy Sherrill. And it is this portrait, which serves as inspiration for tonight's conversation. I'm also happy to shout out Michelle Smith, who's the designer of the iconic dress that Michelle Obama wore for her sitting in this portrait and she's here in the audience with us tonight. So thank you. And then of course, our auditorium shows beautiful images, but you can see the portraits in person. Our galleries will be open tonight until 10 p.m., so you can check them out after the talk. Before we introduce tonight's esteemed guests, I just want to take a moment to thank our supporters at Bank of America and the new hotel for making public programs like this possible. I also want to shout out my dear colleagues, Eugenie Sy and Jane Deney, who's here with us tonight. They curated Brooklyn Museum's presentation of the Obama portrait, so let's give it up for them. And I have so much more gratitude to give, so thank you for sharing it with us. I just want to thank the entire operations, security, audio-visual marketing communications, visitor experience, exhibition teams who made tonight's program possible. And most of all, shout out to Dolores Farrell, our director of exhibition planning, and Margot Cohen-Risderucci, our public programs manager for making the magic happen. So without further ado, we are beyond honored to host a conversation with two brilliant trailblazers who are at the forefront of shaping our culture through a thoughtful consideration of dress and expanding the conversation around the intersection of fashion, politics, and history. First up, we have Kimberly Jenkins. Kimberly Jenkins is a professor in the field of fashion studies, which examines why we wear what we wear. As an educator specializing in fashion history and theory, Kim became best known for her groundbreaking course and exhibition, Fashion and Race, at Parsons School of Design, and has shared her insights globally in various industries, cultural institutions, and media platforms. She is also the founder of the Fashion and Race database. Please give it up for Kim. And then here as her conversation partner tonight, we are so honored to have the fabulous Meredith Koop. Meredith Koop is an acclaimed fashion stylist, image strategist, and consultant. Profiled in the New York Times and Vogue, Koop is known for her work with long-time client, Michelle Obama. Koop curated the content of the former First Lady's message into a dynamic and impactful wardrobe during her tenure in the White House and of course on the Becoming Book Tour. Their partnership continues until this day. Koop also styles and edited a private selection of powerhouse individuals. She brings her intuitive and thoughtful approach to all of her clients' lives. In addition to styling, Koop consults with brands and companies that aim to have a positive cultural impact. Born and raised in St. Louis, Missouri, Koop was drawn to the creativity of fashion while pursuing her additional passions of dance and psychology. Relocating to Chicago in 2003, she worked at a high-end clothing boutique where her fashion career began. There, Koop built up a comprehensive knowledge of fashion as well as a flair for styling a variety of people. Please join me in welcoming our first speakers to the stage in over a year and a half, the wonderful Kimberly Jenkins and Meredith Koop. Hi. Hi. You are all in for a treat tonight. We are going to be talking about the power of style, the impact of dress, and if there's anything that you know about dress and style is that it helps to express our identity, it constructs our identity, it expresses our politics, where we've been, our history, our emotions, it mediates our emotions, and it's an intermediary between us and society, how we feel about ourselves, how what we want to express to the world, and also it's shaped by how society views us. So one woman in particular who we're going to be talking about, Mrs. Michelle Obama, she has an extraordinary role to play, and that is being at the forefront as the former first lady and expressing sort of our politics, our nationhood. There was a great deal weighing on her shoulders, and when it comes to dress and style, you need someone to help mediate all of that, and so that is why I'm so thrilled and honored to be seated with Meredith Koop and why this talk is so important, because oftentimes when we see key figures in the spotlight, we think that they've dressed themselves, maybe in some ways, some of us think that, and what we don't know are kind of the hidden hands behind constructing that entire look and really strategizing the image that that person wants to convey. So that is what we're going to get into tonight and what will make this conversation so unique. So the way that we've have framed this conversation for you, Meredith thought it would be a really good idea to kind of take you through the evolution. So when we put together this slideshow, it's gonna be taking you on a journey thematically through the evolution of Mrs. Obama's style from the portrait, of course, where we'll start, and then we'll take you into the inauguration. We'll take you into when Mrs. Obama has spoken at the Democratic National Convention, and then we'll look at special events and kind of lead into the final stages, which is the becoming book tour. So you'll see sort of an evolution of style, of a woman kind of shaping her identity through dress in front of the entire world. So buckle up, we're gonna get into it. It's a pleasure to be here with you. Yes, you too. And thank you all for coming. I'm very grateful to be here. And first event in a year and a half, it's pretty extraordinary. Okay, so we need to start with the portrait, and then we'll take a step back into the history of Meredith with Mrs. Obama. So the portrait, which some of you may have seen in person or you may see tonight. Here we go, here's the image. And so before we get started, one of the key focal points, aside from Mrs. Obama, in this painting is of course the dress. And so we've got an image here of Mrs. Obama seated, getting ready for the portrait. So Meredith, take us through this and sort of what led to the dress selection and just sort of the construction of this look here. Yes, absolutely. So this portrait was special for a lot of reasons. As some of you might know, a president and first lady have never done portraits like this using contemporary artists. And so when it was brought down to me that Amy Sherild was gonna be the artist that Michelle was gonna work with, I went and I looked at her work and I studied what I could of what she's done. And one of her paintings at that time that was notable and had she had received a reward for was called Miss Everything. I don't know if any of you have seen it. I feel like some of you are art people in here. So when you look at that painting and some of her other work, I was looking at the clothing that had been used and had been painted and I was seeing something that referenced every day and also like a 1950s or 60s aesthetic. And so I started working and pulling together some ideas. And at that time there were two looks that I was interested in that were very, very different. So one was a brocade look with a very 1950 silhouette, very traditional, had very much a first lady connotation. And then I was looking at this gorgeous dress that ended up being the dress, which was a Millie dress from the spring summer 2017 collection and really I just loved the pattern. I thought the pattern was gonna be so striking. Amy had told me a little bit about what she was thinking in terms of the pose and how the painting was gonna be laid out. And so I knew that the dress was going to take up a significant amount of the canvas. And so the pose and thinking about the way she would sit and the way she was over on her hand and how the dress would flow at the bottom, I just thought this could be amazing. And so I contacted Michelle and we lengthened it and changed a few details. And I had a fitting, which is what I normally would do. And it was just so clear that this dress was so comfortable for her and that this was something that she would wear for her life. Like if she was hosting a party or going to a party, this is something that she would wear. And I love that because for something as significant as a portrait, you might think, okay, I'm gonna put on like, it's like school outfit day. I gotta put on my special outfit and it's like, no, this was just more of a casual, her being true to herself. And I think Millie at that time and Michelle Smith's work so much embodies what real women like to wear day to day. So I felt like it was the perfect marriage of ideas. Here it is again. This is just, that was just the other pattern of the other dress that we were looking at. And I put that up there just to sort of a point, especially if people in here are thinking about fashion, looking to be stylist, I think it's just interesting to talk about all the things that go into it. And this was a very specific case where we talked about what it would be like, Amy was telling me what it would be like for her to paint certain things and what would be easier and what would be more difficult and the geometric images of the dress that we chose were so clearly graphic and really showed up on the canvas. So now before we get into these images, I want to take a quick step back. I mean, the audience got to learn a little bit about your background in the bio that Lauren read. But I think on many people's minds is how did you get here? How did you get to this point? How did you get to such an incredible job that many people would probably love that? I just answered an ad online. It was so simple and set my resume. Yeah, you know, life is extraordinary. And I really, it was a combination of things. So I started working in fashion after college. I worked in a retail boutique, a high end retail boutique in Chicago where I was selling clothes, I had a client book and working with clothing from designers like Alexander McQueen, like these big fancy designers that I'd never seen in real life. I grew up in the suburbs of St. Louis, Missouri. Making, like going to an even Marcus was like crazy. So I didn't have the experience of seeing any of these pieces in real life that I was working with when I got to that point. But I had looked at magazines and really big into MTV and visual imagery. And so I had all these fantasies in this imaginary world about it. But I started working there mostly to be honest because I needed a job and I really didn't have a lot of direction and this seemed like a good fit for me. I was not offered the job when I first interviewed but I begged for that job and I got it. And I really loved working there. I worked there for about five years on and off. During that time, I also went back and got my master's degree in clinical psychology. That's a little tidbit about me. So got that degree. I think I use it but maybe not in a literal sense. Decided I didn't wanna practice psychology in that way. I wanted to apply it in other ways. So yeah, so through that employer, that is how I became connected with Mrs. Obama and ended up being an assistant stylist at first for the first year of the administration and then became her primary stylist after that. And so let's get into the work of this. And before we start that, what would you say is the work of a stylist or also sometimes you might call yourself an image strategist so people can kind of get a feel for this kind of work that's at play whenever we see Mrs. Obama conveying a certain look or image. What goes into this? Yeah, that's a great question. Thank you. So I'm curious, are there any people here that are stylists or wanna be stylists or designers? Okay, couple, couple. So I think it does vary. So for me, for my work and for what I do, I create looks for individuals and that's based on a lot of things. That's based on what I find aesthetically pleasing. That's based on what is current. That's based on energies. That's based on psychology. It's based on a lot of different things. My work with Mrs. Obama was very specific and I think now I'm seeing some stylists, not all stylists, but some stylists taking into consideration the narrative behind a certain piece of clothing and that could be the way it looks, who designed it, what the references are and building that story as part of the look versus this is just a gorgeous dress. I mean, how many gorgeous dresses have we seen so many? I mean, there's tons of pretty, pretty things out there for people to wear, but I've always been more interested and became more interested, especially in this role with what is the story? What is the through line? What does this reflect of that person? But also keeping very much in mind what makes a client comfortable. All of my clients, I want them to be comfortable and happy and feel great because there's nothing more powerful than feeling a certain sense of confidence or a certain sense of self-esteem and yes, I do believe that comes from the inside. That's an inside job for sure. But I will say when you put on a nice outfit and you do what you need to do to make yourself feel good, whatever your self-care, whether you wanna call that hair and makeup, whatever, you exude a certain energy and you walk with a different gait and that has always been the magic for me. It's that individual connection that I have with my clients and seeing them go out into the world and thrive and frankly, for many of them, not think about their clothes. Like, leave the thinking to me and you can go and do what you do, whether that's being the first lady or a lawyer or an artist or whatever your career is because I don't know about you guys but I find it stressful. You know, I can style other people all day long but getting myself put together, it's a different process and it can be very stressful to shop, pick out your clothes, go online, go to stores. I mean, it can be a real, it is in fact a real job that I do. It's a real job. And we also know the power, like when you look good, you feel good. So you really need to put this work in capable hands and one last thing I'll say and we'll get on with this is one thing you and I were chatting about is gender assumptions that oftentimes women in the spotlight that they just naturally love fashion or thinking about this or is it so vulnerable? You know, just knew what you wanted to wear and things like that and sometimes maybe they don't. Maybe they're just ambivalent about it and they just need someone to do this work. That's what I think is really interesting. I mean, there's so much that we could talk about and there's so much in this conversation but this assumption that someone who identifies as a woman needs to automatically be interested in fashion or needs to have a certain knowledge base of fashion or care about fashion, I find really just an interesting point of conversation and I often experience that and I often thought about, you know, Michelle and her background and being a lawyer and then being in this public eye in such an intense, intense way and having all these people look at her and one of the first things they were looking at is what is she wearing? You know, it's just a different level of scrutiny. I was gonna say no one was looking at what her husband was wearing but then I was thinking about the mom jeans. Or the dad jeans, sorry, dad jeans. And the beige suit. The condemned beige suit. So yeah. So this is the work. So let's get started with the work, starting in 2009. So if you wanna take us through these looks. Yeah, I just thought it'd be interesting to take a little bit of a different process here and just kind of look over, you know, the years. These, we're gonna go through four inauguration looks. First two inauguration looks are for inaugurations for President Barack Obama. And so you can just kind of see like the change and I see a change not only in the clothing but the way that they look and their energy and the time that has passed. This first look over here, the Isabel Toledo look, the lemongrass that was chosen styled by E. Crom Goldman, who was my previous employer and who is very amazingly talented. And Isabel Toledo unfortunately passed away, also an amazing designer. And then this look over here, I'm pointing to it but it's behind me, so. It's Tom Brown and at the time that I was looking for a look for this event, you know, one thing people don't really consider when they look at pictures like this is all of the practical and logistics that go into clothing, like for example, if I told you, you know what I'd like you to do? I'd like you to go outside in January in the East Coast and I want you to stand there for three hours. You're gonna be photographed and that photograph is gonna be seen around the world. What are you gonna wear? You know, that's kind of what this is. And so there's a lot of practical considerations about warmth and weather. Is it gonna rain? Is it gonna snow? Is it gonna be a little bit unseasonably warm or perhaps unseasonably cold? So there were all these features of these outfits to think about from linings and scarves and all the accessories and layers. But at this time, Tom Brown, who is now a very well known designer was not very well known. And so I had been following his work and I was just in love with what he did and I really wanted to do this play on stereotypes around gender. So this print that she's wearing is actually a tie print. Like that would traditionally be seen as a male tie used in this coat. So yeah, and then I just added a couple touches. You know, we did a little high low moment with the J crew, of course, just to tie that story through. And I think part of why I wanted to group some of these images together is because I always thought it was interesting to see like the through line of a story, like as though when you're watching a movie and a character is you kind of see the connections and the costume and what they wear. If you're watching a series, you see those connections and what they wear. And I always tried to do little things like that if for nothing else, for my own amusement because I had no platform and I couldn't control what people would say about it. But yeah, just to carry that storyline through. Well, and this is a very interesting juxtaposition, you know, where everything is so bright and kind of soft with the lemongrass and the bare legs and this look that you had put together for 2013 was just very much more like suiting, almost armor, but still in a delicate way, very elegant way. And that was one of the reasons I wanted to do like a color. I mean, these are things that I, I can't tell you how many sleepless nights I've had thinking about gloves and turtlenecks, but I was very much wanted to do like a little pop of color, a little bit of like, again, a stereotypically feminine touch with the sort of pinky red. But yeah, if you look at the Isabel Toledo, it's definitely, there is something soft and quilt like about it versus the more sculptured look. Okay. Then we have two more inaugurations. So we have Jason Wu here for 2017. Not gonna get into the politics of that inauguration, but we were warm. If nothing else, we were warm. And one thing a lot of, you know, and this will come up with the next slide, but a lot of people have asked me and all these designers, I mean, I feel so personally attached even though I was in DC, I didn't spend a lot of time with people. Our main relationships were on email, but it was just, I felt such an affection and gratitude towards them. And Jason is someone who, people are like, why did she wear Jason Wu so much? Why did she wear Jason Wu so much? Let me tell you, Jason Wu knows how to make clothes really well. And I've worked with now hundreds of designers, both domestically and internationally. And it's surprising how some people are not able to construct a garment, especially for a woman with any curves on her body. So for, you know, just to say it plainly, a lot of times when you see models, and I know that we're seeing more inclusivity, but we have a long way to go and you see models and it's very much straight up and down. You know, the old adage about a model's body being like a hanger. And so a designer can have a beautiful idea and construct a garment to go to look great on a hanger. But once you start adding curves, circles, in different directions, it requires a different eye. And Jason, we would call him our A plus student because he would always come through very minor alterations and that's very rare. So that's that look. And then of course, Sergio Hudson. Ah, Sergio, such an amazing designer. This was so awesome working with him. And again, a lot of this was about practicality, but one of the things that we had been doing in the book tour and up to this point was moving into wearing more pants. After the White House, it was just like, ugh, dresses, ugh, skirts, pants, suits. Let's do something a little bit more, for her, a little bit more comfortable. And so I was thrilled that she was open to wearing pants for this inauguration and working with Sergio. We're just, we very much see eye to eye. And so it was just like a perfect, I think a perfect marriage for this event and it was really strong. Obviously the mask added a level of what some were calling super heroishness and the gloves. And the gloves. And yeah, I mean, I love this outfit. It's honestly better in motion. I wish this was our video because it was just so fabulous in motion. And it was so strong and just so self-possessed. I loved it. I noticed on social media, and perhaps many of you did as well, there was a strong reaction to it. People thought, wow. People liked it. What a statement. Well done. And then for softer looks, we've got the inauguration celebrations here. Yeah, so inauguration, obviously a big moment in our country's history. And again, Jason Wu both times. And there were some people, there were some critics and whatnot and everyone has a right to their opinion, but the truth is, is that I always pull a few options for each event. And so I was hoping that certain things, you never know how things are gonna be until the dress comes in. You can look at a sketch, you can plan, you can prepare, you can do everything to make something work. But again, Jason's dress was the best dress and it was comfortable and easy and I love the color and the texture. And so I thought it was pretty, it's incredible for him that he dressed her for both of her, the inaugurations. But I love looking at the different vibes. I mean, from those four years, just how much changed in the attitude. There's a sense of consistency. I'm getting like a classical or a Grecian silhouette. Yeah, I think for me, I was very happy to do this second look and sort of continue this story. And I loved, it just checked every box. Like it doesn't wrinkle, it's cut beautifully, the fabric is amazing. Like we worked with Kimberly McDonald to do the little detail. Kimberly McDonald is a jewelry designer and we did the little detail at the neck of the dress. And red is such a powerful color. For me, I love thinking about, we were talking about colors before. As you can see, she's wearing red. Which, I have this theory, I'm noticing. And then when I saw you when you arrived in the red, I thought, okay, there's something to this. If you all noticed, so her gloves, I mean, it might be a purplish, but what my eyes are seeing is kind of this deep, kind of burgundy or oxblood red. So that was kind of like the first taste of it. And then, once again, Jason Buu 2017. It's kind of red ensemble. And then Sergio Hudson again. Well, I'm gonna tell you the truth. All these colors appear very different to my eye. So each of them are like their own unique things to me. But I also see that they look very similar. Now that I'm looking at them side by side, they are kind of similar. But to me, I'm like, no, that's red and that's burgundy and that's oxblood and that's berry and that's wine. What are you talking about? But that was one of the things with the Sergio Hudson look. All these, there were journalists calling it purple. And I was like, Sergio and I were like, this is not purple, what's going on? Which seems so silly to even talk about, but. It's like that moment years ago when we were all arguing over the dress. Like what color is it? Like is it gold or is it blue? Yeah. But it really, I think colors are very important. And I think there, certain colors are about tradition. Certain colors are about history. Certain colors have, you know, the wavelengths of colors and how they hit your eye, it is an energy. And so it is, each color is gonna have its own unique fingerprint, in my opinion. And speaking of significant colors to represent something, thinking of red versus blue in this nation. Here we start seeing a different silhouette also. That very much, I do wanna ask you about these silhouettes that you picked for D&C events. If there's anything to the cut, you know, showing more arm or just having something where the hemline is a little shorter because it's really more about getting to work. And just, you know, it's less of something that's kind of getting in the way, like too long of a hemline. It's really kind of working this look for what the First Lady is called to do. Right. Yeah, so you can see here 2008 versus 2012. I, it's interesting. So first of all, 2008, this was styled by Echrom Goldman again. Maria Pinto is a designer out of Chicago. And then for 2012, we did this Tracy Reese look. And I don't know if anybody remembers, but everyone was like, I was reading, I was looking back at these images and I was seeing these images of nail polish bottles. I was like, right, everyone was like, looking for this nail polish that she was wearing. How funny is that? But really, yes, things definitely changed. And the truth is, I commissioned this Tracy Reese dress, worked with Tracy, and it had sleeves. Because at that time, one of the things that kept happening over and over again, especially in the first term and into the second term was this obsession with her arms, which at some point I was like, this is getting weird. Like, this is really not okay. And every magazine shoot we would do, every photography thing, people would be like, you know what, we would really love if she would show her arms, her fabulous arms. I was like, no, what, this is crazy. What are you talking, it's not, this is not something you can commission. Someone to show their body parts, like come on. But we got the dress and it looked better sleeveless. Sorry, that's just what happened. But we cut, we were really getting into a groove of women and men and people. You know, as we change, different things suit our needs better. And so we were doing more of a cut in sleeve and the silhouette was becoming looser on the bottom just because it was more comfortable for her. And she really liked the way it looked when she walked across the stage to have some movement. And so we started leaning into that more. And so you see that here. Tracy actually ended up making this dress after we did this custom project. She made it for, and sold it through Anthropology, I believe, which was really awesome. And then in the next slide, you'll see the Christian Siriano look, which is more of even a fuller circle skirt. And so things were just becoming more, having more movement at the bottom. Here it is. So 2016, Christian Siriano. Oh, that got cut off a little bit, but that's all right. So yeah, it was really, one of the reasons, again, there were a few options for this event, but this was the most comfortable and ended up working the best. One of the reasons that I really wanted to work with Christian for this was at the time he was being very vocal about working with women of different shapes and sizes for dressing them for the red carpet. One notably was Leslie Jones from SNL. And I felt like that was a really important message and one that I wasn't hearing from a lot of designers at that time. And also I thought it was cool that like working in fashion, I'll just say there's a lot of snobs, okay. And people often, you know, project runway alums would not be allowed to mix with the upper echelon of fashion. So I really wanted to support his career at that time. And then 2020, just gosh, when was that? Oh my gosh. It was a long time ago. So by Shari was someone that I, a lot of people will ask me, well, how do you find designers? And a lot of times I'm just looking through Instagram, like trying to find new people. I'm always looking for new designers from all over the world, you know, just seeing what's out there. And I had seen her work and I had, I actually didn't know that she had made a vote necklace. I guess she had, but I just really wanted, since I knew this was gonna be on Zoom this year, I wanted to find something that could speak in this small little frame that people were gonna see. And so I asked her to make this vote necklace. And it was quite anxiety provoking because I wasn't quite sure if people were gonna be able to read it on camera at their TVs at home. So it was a little concern. I also wasn't there the day that they filmed. So I was just texting people like, make sure the letters are turned the right way. Make sure you can see it. Can you see it? Can you see it? Everyone's ignoring me. No response. So, but I was so thrilled that people really responded to this. And again, I just love tapping into what people are thinking about, you know, that point of accessibility and that point of relationship. And a lot of people went out and bought this necklace. A lot of people also knocked it off or made it and sold it for a lot cheaper. But Shari, the designer really, I think helped her business a lot. And so that's pretty cool. And I think that's interesting in that moment when most things were virtual last year, you pivoted and realized, okay, this isn't gonna be so much about the look, the whole look. It's like an accessory to express something. We need something, we need an accessory. And it worked. Yes. Okay. And now special events. Some of my favorite looks in here. Okay. This. I want to talk about risks. So when it comes to a First Lady, there's also these sort of assumptions or expectations or sometimes moral expectations of how a woman should be presenting herself and representing the nation and things like this. And also the fact that this is a widely known luxury label. So take us through the thought process of this and also what the reaction was. And also Mrs. Obama's reaction to this. I could cry. I just love, this is just one of my favorite all time looks. So much to say, where do I start? So this was for the Italian State Dinner in 2016. And so there's so many designers out of Italy. I mean, it's known for design, fashion, production, manufacturing. So like all of these events, I started out researching, okay, what designers do I want to work with? And put together a list, started putting together look ideas. I really wanted to work with, I'm going to say Versace, that's how I pronounce it. But if you're cooler than me, you probably say Versace. But I really wanted to work with the team there and with Donatella. I didn't work directly with Donatella, but I'm just saying her name because she is the designer. But they, the look, the Versace look is very sexy. And I definitely played around with that throughout the terms like, because I'm going to say something controversial, I get maybe, but I find Michelle to be a sexy woman. And so if she feels inclined to express herself in that way, I'm in full support. So this dress was definitely, okay, I'm going to take this risk. I really want this to happen, but I'm going to have a backup. I need to make sure she's always comfortable, always feels secure, always feels like she, you know, then the evening is going to go well. And working with them was amazing. They sent me so many, they must have sent me 25 sketches, which is way too many. And chain mail, which is the material that this is made of, is a really intricate process where you need to literally affix each piece together. And it's something that the house is known for and they have an Atelier in Italy and it's a big production. So they sent me these dresses and they sent me one in silver and one in gold. And I kept looking at back at the sketches, processing them, sleeping on it, looking at them again. I was like, it's just, it's reading too disco to me. I really want something more pink. Like I want, okay, there's silver, there's gold. What's the other, bro's gold? So I reached out to them and they were like, yes, we'll make it happen. I was like, yes. So they made this beautiful rose gold chain mail dress and it was, it probably weighs like 40 pounds. So it's a lot, it's a lot to deal with. So I, until the very day of the event, I was like, she's not gonna do it. She's not gonna do it. She's not gonna do it. Don't get excited. She's not gonna do it. She's not gonna wear that. She's gonna say no, it's not gonna work. It's not gonna fit. It's not gonna be right. Cause we, it's very difficult to alter and we had to do a little bit of an alteration but she ended up going for it. And I was just like, oh my God. But I loved it because a lot of times journalists, what they write or what they've written in the past, they don't really get it right. But this time, someone did talk about sort of this contrast of this, again, stereotypical feminine look of a rose gold, of a rose colored garment and the strength of a chain mail, which is literally like an armor and that sort of parallel contradiction, however you wanna say it. And it was just, it was so beautiful because that is the strength and the femininity and the vulnerability. Those things are the things that I think are part of what make Mrs. Obama so accessible and wonderful to people is that combination. So the dress perfectly reflected hair, makeup, on point, jewelry, shoes, everything, check. Everything. I mean, she looks like, yes, if you wanted to go on. It was great. I mean, it's like she's just chiseled from bronze, like carved out of bronze, you know, just this slinky, you know, liquid look, just dripping off of her body. Also the heels, you know, just take her right up to Mr. Obama's height. So she's also just right up there with him. So it's a powerful look with how tall she is and how the dress is hugging her body and also the hairstyling too. That was one of the first times I saw her really, you know, giving us that, you know, so. Inside, inside, yeah. The side, you know, so it was just such a look, the symmetry, everything working out. And would you say this was kind of the first time where you both really kind of went for it and did a look that was so sensual was this the first time or was there? There were others, they just didn't get as much press. Okay. Yeah, there were definitely others. I mean, there was a time back in the first term where she went to, because I was looking at this image, actually, she went to the Nick, I don't want to say it wrong, Nickelodeon's Kids Choice Awards. Okay. I'm not, it's not really my demo. But she wore, and this was really early on, she wore this great pair of helmet-laying metallic faux leather tight pants with this sequin blazer, Wes Gordon, before he was at Carolina Herrera. And it was just, it was just super like modern and youthful and very sexy. And there were all sorts of things people said about it. I'm not gonna repeat them, but yeah, it was something that like I, we were playing around with and this, but this was, but it was not like a spoken thing. We weren't like, hey, let's be sexy. You know, like mouth. But this was definitely such a huge, I mean, these state dinners were so well covered by the press, so it was a huge moment. Again, playing with more cuts, silhouettes. So this was in, so one of the reasons this was in the slide show. This was one of the first looks post-White House. And so I definitely wanted to do something different and something that we really, there was really no events in the White House where she could wear this. There was just, they just didn't exist. So really wanted to do something really different and clean and modern. This is Krishna at Ox. And you can see in the runway look, it has this sequined piece to it that we changed. And that's something that, you know, I, working with my tailor in New York, Christy Rilling, we changed every piece of clothing. I mean, we've turned tops into dress. We've changed just so many things. So one of the reasons I'm even bringing that up or vocalizing it is, because I just think it's so important for women and people and men and whoever you are, individuals to be able to wear what they want the way that they want to wear it. And one of the things that happens in fashion that I still find shocking is like big design houses will be like, you can have this, but you can't change it. Or we'll make this for you, but you need to wear it exactly as it is. And that only happened to me once with Mrs. Obama where someone had told me, okay, you can have this, but you have to wear it just, you have to tell her she has to wear it just as it is. Or I don't even know what they said. I was like, no, we're changing. I'm just not gonna tell you, but we're gonna change it. Cause I just think that sort of again, this theme of like wanting to control, wanting to, you know, in particular wanting women to do this certain thing. Like I just, it just bugs me a little bit. So that's why I'm bringing it up. But yeah, so we modified this a bit to work for the event and to make it super, super clean. It's very sporty, appropriate. Okay, now becoming. Okay, so this was a part of the, we're now on the book tour. We've time traveled into 2018. And so this was one of, surely one of the most covered books of that tour. The tour was so great because we got to just break out of the mold. And in the beginning when this was coming, first of all, who goes on a, who writes a book and then goes on a worldwide tour and sells out stadiums? First of all, second of all, you know, when I was planning this and you know, she was like put, we hadn't really had much time to stop in the White House. So there wasn't really a lot of conversation. I was just doing things, getting things prepared, showing them to her, fitting them. And then she was going off. We actually had a little bit of time and what I said is I wanna do, you know, let's do different things. Let's do things we haven't been able to do or felt like we haven't been able to do. And so this was definitely, I mean, this is wild. This is out the box. This is off the chain. So this Balenciaga look was shown on the runway in yellow. And I just, I really liked not only the color but that it was a longer skirt. I just thought it was interesting and something that she really wouldn't have the occasion to wear other than this very thing. And as always, I was super duper prepared and I had multiple shoe options. One was the boots. But I came in real light with the boots because I was like, these boots are scary. I need to like come in real soft. Like maybe the boots. I don't know. So I had some more sensible, stilettos prepared. And then I was like, I don't know. I think these boots could be really cool. Like they're very different. I don't know, what do you think? Would you be up for that? Okay, yeah, she's up for it. So they're really difficult to put on. I don't know if anyone has experience with these, these are the Balenciaga knife boots, but you have to like roll them down and then kind of roll them all the way up. And so it was just a little bit of a commitment and something that we wouldn't normally do. Like she's not one to necessarily suffer for fashion. So I was really, again, it was one of those moments where I was like, she's not gonna do this. Like we're gonna, they're gonna go, we'll put them in the suitcase, whatever, but it's never gonna happen. So it's fine. I'm not gonna get excited about it. And then she was like, yeah, Brooklyn, let's go. I was like, okay, so it was all about Brooklyn and that's really was it. But I think, again, I think because it was so strong and so impactful and so in a way, polarizing, like you can't look at this and not have an opinion. Like you have an opinion about it and everybody's entitled to their opinion and fashion is a subjective thing. I think because of that and because we've never in, this just never happened. We've never had a first lady like Michelle Obama. We never will have another first lady like Michelle Obama because she's unique in who she is. This was just so out of the box and different and interesting for people. And I think also like, again, there are all these rules. Like fashion is just full of people trying to control and put rules on people based on what you look like, where you're from, how tall you are, how short you are, how big you are, how small you are, you know, how old you are. And it's all nonsense. What you should wear, what you shouldn't wear. Nonsense. She knows Brooklyn goes hard. Yeah. And just taking a moment before our last slide and last look is, I think this is also a good point to make something you and I were discussing privately is, you know, I wanna ask, you know, what is frequently misunderstood about Michelle Obama, especially now that we've see all of these risks that she takes and, you know, just how she shape-shifts with all of this, but it's still authentic. But what is something that's often, as someone now who's been close to her for 10 years? I, well, I wouldn't really know because I don't know what people, you know, I couldn't say what other people think or what there is to be misunderstood, but. Or what would you like people to know? I think what I would like people to know and recognize, not really specifically about Michelle, but just in general is that we're all human. And celebrities or people in the public eye, you know, we are all, we all have something in common. And I think there's a certain celebrity worship that happens that can be a little bit negative for society in general. And so I'm not really speaking specifically about Michelle, but I think just because she is so well-loved and regarded and respected, and I have that same love and respect for her, but I also see that everybody that you see, every celebrity that you see, they're all human. And we're all pretty much doing similar things in a lot of ways. Putting our Balenciaga boots on one boot at a time. If I could just highlight that statement for tonight. Right, well that totally contradicts my whole point, but. Our finale look, this is one of my favorite images in the slideshow, so beautiful. Take us through this look. I love this look. Again, Sergio Hudson, who I think is an amazing, amazing designer and also craftsman because I know that he works, actually knows how to make clothes. He doesn't just design them, he makes them as well. This was just such a beautiful suit in this color. It was made custom based on one of his collections. I believe it came in orange and white, but we wanted to do something special for her, so we did this in purple, which is a very regal color. And it didn't come with anything underneath. So yeah, we had to figure something out for that because we're not doing the whole tape situation. So the tailor that I work with, Christy Rilling, who has her own atelier here in New York, she makes beautiful custom clothing and she was making these beautiful bustiers at the time and really just wanted to not only just get one for Michelle, but also to make one for this outfit. And I ran around the garment district looking at every black sequins piece that I could find until we found just the right one. If you don't know, sequins come in many different shapes, sizes, and levels of sheen versus madness. So I really wanted to find the perfect sequin so you can see just a little photo there of us just testing it out to see how it appeared. And yeah, it just worked beautifully. This was in Atlanta. It was Gail King interviewed her that evening and it was just a beautiful night. And I think this is something that, again, like she felt totally comfortable and very cool in and something that a lot of people would like to have in their closet. Well, and so before we wrap up, in what ways, now that we've seen this journey or at least this kind of curated journey for tonight, in what ways would you say that you've seen Mrs. Obama's style evolve? I think... And also what you learned along the way in styling. Yeah, I mean, I've learned so much. I mean, there's no guidebook for being a First Lady stylist because I don't believe there ever was one. So a lot of First Ladies in the past have worked specifically with one designer or a couple designers or a very small group of designers. So taking this on was a huge endeavor that I really didn't understand to be honest and I'm still processing it. Yeah, I think it's just a very specific unique thing and I've learned a lot about, through her, you know, I've learned a lot about what is important when it comes to dress and she is such a pragmatic person and so into comfort and so into meeting her audience where they are, you know, she wouldn't wanna show up at an event for school counselors in a ball gown. That's just not her. There are certain people that are like that, you know, that that's their vibe and that's totally cool but that's something that, you know, especially in the beginning, I would get a little irritated like, just wear the fashion, like, let's go. What are we doing? It's fashion, right? And it was like, no, we're gonna do the practical thing. This needs to be comfortable. This needs to work. This needs to be similar to what the other people attending are wearing their level of dress and that's something I really always respected a lot. You know, I thought that was a really beautiful thing. Thank you for this concept. Thank you. Wow, I miss you guys so much. No one knows how to bring the Q and A like Brooklyn. Thank you. And thank you both for being so generous. We are truly in the presence of greatness here. Thank you to Kimberly and Meredith for sharing your expertise and for really doing so much to shape our culture here. Thank you so much for being with us tonight. Thank you, Lauren. You're welcome at any time. I also want to thank Nicole, our interpreter tonight. And of course, all of you for rocking with us and bringing your good humor and hard-hitting questions again. Seriously. So you can see the Obama portraits here in Brooklyn for the first time tonight until 10 p.m. So you can head up to the fourth floor and check those out. They will also be on view through October 24th. So if you liked what you saw, come back and bring your family and friends. And then of course, I have to plug another program to bring you back to the auditorium. So we have a few spots left where these tickets are selling pretty hot. But you can join us on October 14th for a talk with the official portrait artist, Kehinde Wiley and Amy Sherrill. They will be here in the pink chairs. That is amazing. Yes, come back. And if you are a fan of fashion, which I'm assuming is something that brought you here tonight, next week we are opening a Dior exhibition at the museum. So this opens next weekend. So please come back, kick it with us, see some more art, bring your friends and family. Again, thank you so much for being here, getting vaccinated, staying safe, looking out for others and community. Take care, enjoy the portraits before you head out and get home safe.