 We are live Good morning, everyone. I hope everyone had an enjoyable Labor Day weekend This meeting will now come to order Welcome to this virtual meeting of the Durham Historic Preservation Commission on this seventh day of September 2021 My name is Matt Bouchard and I currently serve as chair of the Commission This commission is a quasi judicial board of record and as such all testimony will be recorded Under this procedure our meeting today will also be live streamed on the city's YouTube channel The proceedings of this board are governed by the zoning laws as recorded as such Please note the steps we have taken to ensure that each party's due process rights are protected as we proceed on this remote platform this morning First today's meeting will be conducted in accordance with the statutes enacted in session law 2020-3 and codified at North Carolina General Statutes chapter 1 6 6 a dash 19.24 Which allows for remote meetings and quasi judicial hearings during declarations of emergency? Second each applicant on today's agenda was notified before being placed on the agenda that this meeting would be conducted using a remote electronic platform Every applicant on today's agenda has consented to the board conducting the evidentiary hearing on their request Using this remote platform We will also confirm today at the start of each evidentiary hearing that the participants in the evidentiary hearing consent to the matter proceeding in this remote platform If there is any objection to a matter proceeding in this remote platform that case will be continued Third notice of this meeting was provided to the applicants and to the public in multiple ways including signage posted on site Notification letters mailed to all adjacent property owners informing recipients regarding the remote platform and a general announcement via our website informing the public of the same The notices for today's meeting advise the public on how to access the remote meeting as the meeting occurs Individuals wishing to participate in today's evidentiary hearings were required to register prior to the meeting Information about this registration requirement along with information about how to sign up to participate was included in the mailed notice letters sent to each adjacent property owner This information was also included on the board's website The public was advised to contact excuse me to contact the city immediately in case of objection to the evidentiary hearing or to the remote meeting platform Several cases are proceeding today in which the city has been contacted by one or more individuals with an objection to the case or to the matter being heard in this remote meeting platform All individuals participating in today's evidentiary hearings were also required to submit a copy of any presentation Document exhibit or other material. They wish to submit at the evidentiary hearing prior to today's meeting All materials that the city received from the participants in today's cases as well as a copy of city staff's presentations and documents Were posted online prior to this meeting The agenda and all materials to be discussed today may be viewed at any time during today's meeting by visiting the web link for today's agenda via Durham's Agenda Center Finally all individuals who registered to participate in an evidentiary hearing on today's agenda as well as all city staff participants Were emailed a witness oath and consent to a remote hearing form prior to today's meeting Any individual planning to testify or submit evidence in an evidentiary hearing was notified that they must sign the oath prior to today's meeting We will also reaffirm everyone's oath on the record at today's meeting Are there any members of this board who would have any conflicts of interest with regard to any of the cases before us today? Hearing none. Are there any board members requesting early dismissals today? Good morning, chair Bouchard. 12 noon if we're not finished Thank You commissioner waiters anybody else as chair of the historic preservation commission I'd like to remind everyone that our quasi judicial hearings function similar to a court proceeding Staff will first present an overview of each case and then the applicant will have an opportunity to present their evidence Opponents if any may then present their evidence and the applicant may then present a rebuttal Board members will refrain from questions or comments until each speaker has completed his or her presentation Testimonies should consist of facts each witness knows directly not hear say your opinions Evidence already presented need not be repeated all witnesses who have signed up in advance will be given the opportunity to speak and their testimony would be recorded The board will vote on each case after the presentation of all evidence pro and con concerning that case All decisions of this board are subject to appeal to the board of adjustment and then to the Durham County Superior Court Clerk Elliott, could you please take the attendance of the commissioners who are here today? for Chair for short. I am here commissioner down Commissioner to Barry here Commissioner Fieselman vice-chair up goals be here Mr. Hamilton Here Commissioner Johnson Here Commissioner Crager Commissioner waiters Present Thank you Commissioners you've been forwarded an agenda to today's meeting would anyone including city staff like to recommend any adjustments to that agenda Hello Rosenberg planning department. No adjustments. Thanks Thank You Carla anybody else Commissioners you've also been provided two sets of draft minutes. We had Two meetings one on June 15 2021 one on July 6 2021 Minutes for which you should have been provided with your packets. Let us start with the June 15 2021 draft minutes Does anyone have any suggested revisions to those minutes? If not, if I could have a motion and you will be motion to a group One to wait a second Thank you very much Clerk Elliot we could have a roll call vote, please Okay chair for short root Commissioner to Barry Yes Vice-chair goals be approved what commissioner Hamilton approved commissioner Johnson approved commissioner waiters Motion passes 60 Thank you very much Terry if we could now Direct our attention to the draft minutes for our last virtual meeting which was conducted on July 6 2021 does anybody have any suggested revisions to these minutes? Hearing none. Could I have a motion, please? so moved Thank you Commissioner Johnson and vice-chair will be if we could have a roll call vote Okay chair for approved Commissioner to Barry. Yes, vice-chair will be commissioner Hamilton Commissioner Johnson approved Commissioner waiters Motion passes 60 Thank you all very much Let us proceed to the swearing-in of all city staff that will be presenting today's cases. Clerk Elliot Do you members of staff Swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give in the public hearing proceedings for today's case is the truth by your own knowledge or by information and belief Carla Rosenberg Planning Department I do Grace Smith Planning Department I do Wonderful I believe we are prepared to go With our first case it is case see a way to one zero zero zero four nine I would ask Chris to bring in the members of the public who are planning on attending Hearing on this case I'll register attendees are present Great before we hear from staff. Is there anyone of our commissioners who may have a conflict of interest in hearing this case? If not, let's proceed with the swearing-in of anyone who plans to speak for this case and as I understand there are a number of folks If we could go one at a time That would be terrific Click Elliot The use swear or from the testimony you're about to give in the public hearing proceeding for today's case is the truth by your own knowledge Or by information and belief This is Paul fell bloom home one homeowner And I saw I so swear Any other folks anticipating speaking? Hi, this is Frank mania with pico the roofing and I swear to tell you the best of my knowledge all the truth about this project and this is Mary Boatwright wife of Paul fell bloom owner of 2040 Englewood Avenue, and I so swear to tell the truth if I add information Thank you. If we could start with the homeowners and then move to mr. Mignet I Would like to get on your wreck on the record, please your consent to moving forward with today's hearing using this remote platform Yeah, I agree. I Consent I get I agree Go ahead mr. Mr. Mignet Yes, I come sent as well. Am I pronouncing your name correctly? Yes, you do I'm a bouchard. So I should know this but just wanted to be sure That's fine Thank you all very much for being here today We may now proceed with the staff summary. Okay, this is Carla Rosenberg planning department case COA 21 00049 that's 2040 Englewood Avenue modifications by the applicant and owner Paul fell bloom located in the Northeast Quadrant of the intersection of Carolina Avenue and Englewood Avenue Zoned residential urban five contributing structure in the Watts-Hillendale The story for strict and the applicant is proposing to remove some original Yankee style gutters and replace them with key style gutters as part of this project in Rebuilding is rebuilding the porch roof structure to correct some water damage that took place and then also To change the existing Traditional cleaning seam metal roof into a new modern metal roof. So I'd like to introduce the stop report into the record and invite Mr. Feldblum to present his case Well, I Think that the information that we did submit is Fairly complete and hopefully fairly clear This style of of gutter and drainage has led to Chronic water infiltration and damage to the the wood structure of the porch we have You know placed band-aids on some of these Areas in the past the you know the underlying problem is unchanged and we know of no way to retain this drainage system and prevent on recurring water infiltration and damage I Would you know, I would add that the changes that we propose Well in my in my view Will lead to relatively minor change in the appearance of the house and I'm not sure if You know, well, please let me know, you know, what questions you have and what additional information you need and certainly Between me and and the true expert Frank Mignier We can we can offer more information I'd like to add as the co-owner of this house that It was particularly apparent in the photographs that were sent yesterday to the commission of the so-called Yankee gutter that were taken from walking on the roof the gutters are themselves fairly shallow and the drainage holes are quite small and Perhaps that was fine for 2000 I mean for 1913 when the house was built they are not sufficient for the amount of rainfall that we are now getting and so we have had a lot of Flooding when there are what some people call frog stranglers Large torrential rainstorms if the water sheets off of the porch roof and Particularly if you're looking at this at this photograph particularly on the left-hand side and then on the right in the back water just sheets off like a waterfall and Then the water seems to just stay there and seep through so that the columns Continue to rot through and particularly at their bases. So it seems that this is a problem that is due to the what one might call technology of the original gutters which no longer can serve for the kind of Rainfall that we now experience. Thank you and Carla Rosenberg planning department. I'd like to state for the record You did send photographs and I received them But unfortunately yesterday was a holiday and we weren't able to update the staff report online So we have not been able to share those photographs with the Commission We do have a policy of not being able to share during the Meeting only updating the staff report prior to the meeting. So I'm sorry about that. That's fine. Thank you And I don't know if you know, this would be an appropriate time to to ask Frank Mignier to to add some of the details that he has That he has put included in his letter to the Commission Mr. Mignier floors yours Yes, so in this particular particular situation, those built-in gutters as you call them Yankee gutters are very shallow the At the tallest it might be three inch or so the fairly wide but being that shallow It's very easy for them to overflow As Mrs. Felder mentioned Also the size of the drain being also part of the equation. They're coming through the older woodwork the software area which which eventually there is a connection that is hidden within that that wooden section of the structure and We cannot repair if need be That connection that's that's a major challenge that involves a lot of woodwork The other thing is the techniques used to put this roof and gutter together The techniques were good however because of the architectural design Of the roof meeting with those gutters there was no way for the technicians to to properly put this together in a safe manner so that if The gutter were to fill up in water and have to overflow Said water would not go in the in the ceilings on the inside so Along with this There is no expansion joints all around this porch and that's a very long porch with two two returns and I think those is those expansion joint is not an option because It is so shallow at the At the at the at the smallest part of that gutter We need a minimum of three to four inch normally. I don't go any lower than four inch I just don't have those four inch the four inch is a barely met at the outlet areas. So Um the idea would be to Um delete that gutter by extending the rafters of the roof and By there's a a molding in a wood molding in the front and at the fascia Uh board areas just right at the edge of the roof the those gutters currently By removing that molding and replacing it by a k-style gutter which imitate Not perfectly, but quite closely the design of that molding It would not alter the visual the the cross visual of the house from the street from a distance And it would certainly avoid any more Um leakage on the inside and wood damage and especially of those columns which are you know the support of that roof uh in the current states That metal being the original has been repaired several times Fortunately, these homeowners have maintained their home really well, but it came to a time where This is a turned coated steel And it it it's rusting through so despite all the layer of aluminum coating and various as far coating that they've had It's at a point of needing replacement, but because of that design I cannot Recreate I mean I could recreate what's there, but it is not going to Delete all the potential issues that are currently there it will happen again Because everything is mechanically put together, but metal expends and contract quite a bit and we do have a lot of temperature changes between summer and winter in this area Which makes the metal Move a lot in and we have uh a time and there is some in that built-in gutter What we call stress cracks Which means the the the metal cannot expand and contract where it should be and so it starts to Bent over itself in and by doing it over the course of several years it creates a crack that that is not fixable it's uh There are numerous homes like theirs in this area that I have worked on and Pretty much all of them have Deleted those built-in gutter for that very specific reason Thank you very much We we've heard from all of the proponents for the case Does Or do any of the commissioners have any questions for the applicant before we ask to hear from any others Um, I have a quick question. This is commissioner johnson This is for mr. Um Minye Yep Did was there any did you consider or um, did you consider using half brown gutters for this house? Or what why why k style other than half brown? so So, uh, thank you for asking this question commissioner. I personally prefer the half friend for various reasons I think it looks better. It's a whole lot easier to maintain for the homeowner uh to maintain clean Uh, I think the drain better you have less Standing water and those because of the water line being just part of the radius rather than a flat bottom The only reason I mentioned the k style. It's because it is my understanding that the history committee wants to uh have The exterior Appearance of the house as true as it's original as possible. The half round does not Provide that Kind of molding design in the front. That's the reason why uh, I didn't go But if it was if it was an option, I would highly recommend for everyone involved to go with a half round most definitely Mr. Johnson, any follow-up? Thank you. No, thank you. Um Carl Rosenberg planning department Where could you um, just specify exactly where this gutter will be going again? Uh, yes, so The gutter will have to be installed up against the fascia board. So it's just right below. Yeah, right there Nope a little bit higher Yeah, yeah Just right at the edge of the metal roof currently where where your cursor is right now That's where it would be installed. So right now there is right there A molding which we need to remove In order to accommodate The the attachment of the gutter Um, keep in mind that I've had several customers that were very attached to their molding But that's require installing a gutter with a roof mount and Once you put the gutter in front of the molding you do not see that molding anymore So you're creating two thing a very highly technical installation and maintenance which God forbid should a limb fall on the gutter and damage it and bend the the the gutter hanger back Which will be under the metal We're gonna have to out tear the roof in order to repair the gutter Extremely inconvenient and costly Having the gutter mounted Uh, this way also makes it more prone to To to move around and being tweaked and holding water and debris Whereas when we mount the gutter up against a straight plumb fascia board Uh, we delete that by fastening the gutter hanger directly onto the fascia board Which has a sub fascia which is a two by behind makes it very strong Also, uh, should a limb or anything happen a ladder fall, whatever that match the gutter The two system guttering and roofing parts are independent and therefore can be worked Separately without altering one another um And it's also a lot stronger to fasten the gutter on on a solid piece of wood then Just over the top of the roof I hope this makes sense Any other commissioners with questions for the applicant or for mr. Minier? Yes, mr. Minier, um, or the applicant, uh, this is andy gulsby Uh, will the downspouts be located in the same location? They are now you're not adding or adding any downspouts well As far as I know, uh, we would not be adding downspouts Of course the attachment of the downspout would have to change you would have to be angled out To you know to meet up with a new external gutter. So there'd be a little bit of a oblique section at the very top Rather than I mean now you can see Well say on that that column on the right side of the photo The downspout just shoots straight up into the wooden porch structure. You know, that's where the drain is So that I mean you can see that you know, it's just going to have to kind of run diagonally to attach to an external gutter at the very top I think and I was just going to follow up and you're You're essentially replacing one for one. You're going to put a downspout where they are currently located. Yes Okay, that's all I have. Thank you Thank you. Thank you vice chair Gillespie. Any other commissioners with questions for the applicant or mr. Mignier Um, I have a question for uh, I guess the applicant or mr. Mignier This is commissioner johnson again. Uh, do we have we specified? I'm sorry. Have you specified a color for the roof? There are a lot of colors here Um, is that something in our preview? Maybe I can ask this of staff. Are we still looking at colors now for roofs? um, I believe we can't it's paint color that we don't regulate so With this being a roof like More of a maybe it's a more permanent color I think we we can regulate that We have had the roof Swabbed I think is the term and it had been black. It had been Swabbed as black. I believe when we actually bought the house And um, then a few years ago our roofer because we've had many people come in and try to fix problems Our roofer when he cleaned out the the yanky gutter and made sure that there wasn't debris in it Um, he swabbed it a silver color, which I believe is within the historic preservation code and also In concert with what the house is But saying that it was a little more heat efficient, but we're not wedded to any color I would say that I would prefer Um, it to harmonize with the rest of the house. Um, I Just I'm I'm not one to have a pink roof there or something, but I don't I don't think you all would like that either so But that is another advantage of uh, say coming back with a new metal roof is you know, the great variety of colors available And we uh, you know as we ride around town you kind of note. Oh, well, that's a handsome roof That one less so, you know, so we kind of collect data anecdotally And we would welcome the input of the historic commission. Sure This is chair bouchard. I I guess it's difficult for me to tell from what I believe to be the the one picture that most clearly shows Uh, the standing seam metal roof what what color it currently is or For that matter what color it may have been originally. Um, it looks like some it looks silver but I Yeah, it's it's well, of course, it's it's not bright and shiny, but it is it's a silver uh tar coating That we put on I guess about two years ago. Yeah Okay That's probably the protection for the turncoat metal mat as opposed to the actual color of the original roof Yes, right I'll ask one other question. I think probably directed at mr. Mignet if you could provide sir The discreet evidence that in in your view Uh, the existing uh standing seam metal roof is is not Uh, repairable at this stage Uh, yeah, I don't have it with me at this moment, but I can go back to that roof anytime, uh and get some pictures, but um Uh Due to the number of repair the nature of that metal which is still 29 gauge, which is very thin Uh, the material proposed for the new roof is 24 gauge, which is a lot thicker Uh with a kiner paint coating on top With hidden fasteners as well. Uh, we'll we'll last A lot longer than all of us will leave Uh, the problem with the metal that is currently there It can only be patched with adding Keep on adding small pieces. The problem is it is rusting from the underside Um, the the porch is not a heated area. So the the little attic space that is Right under the metal Uh gets hot and humid and summer That humidity gets under the metal and starts heating it up from from underneath So the sealant that they have on the roof helps to some extent From preventing the the the rusting and the deterioration to to accrue on the top of it But it's still coming from below. Um, which I just replaced another roof similar to this We we had to peel it off and I'm waiting on another customers Uh, not fall from here Uh from from their home that also The roof is is beyond repair at that point All those have you personally observed that that rusting from Underneath Yes, I could tell through the uh through the coating The aluminum coating that is currently in place You you can clearly see all the rusted area that have been Covered, you know, you you have to before before you do the coating you have to really clean the metal Get it bare metal remove anything that's been installed I have not done that coating so I cannot speak for exactly the process they used But there's always some some, uh Traces of you you can see when the metal rust is thinner in places You have very irregular edges and everything it's all over the place over there And that was going to be my next question. How would you characterize the You know extent of the rust evidence that you personally observed so It the the metal the metal Split split and layers if you would So it's not gonna is not gonna peel everywhere It's gonna be in locations and definitely In in the built-in gutter area and where the the angles of that built-in gutter Or which which are critical you also And that is a lot less visible now with the coating the the tiny pit hole as we call them You you you fix one area and six months later. They're showing up three feet farther and they're still having a leak The homeowner cannot get on their roof every week to inspect it. It's just at this point of time, you know Uh Nothing lasts forever and and this roof has definitely reached its maturity being coated already twice They have been pushing the lifetime of it And and it is unfortunately for them now time to To move on to something newer. So What is the useful life of a standing seam metal roof? So it it depends on the material the location the situation whether you expose or Have a lot of woods around You can expect, you know, 80 years. It's if it's done properly For the type of material they have that 29 gauge steel 80 years So long that he's been coated within the first 40 years and then regularly clean and paint it again Every decade or so You can you might be able to get 90 years I've seen a roof recently. That is 100 year old. That is amazing looking good. It's in virginia, but That homeowner Was the original is stayed in the family and they've maintained that truth every 10 years They had it send it and cleaned. This is not the case here This this roof was was let go for a good 40 to 50 years before it got addressed And I mean they've done a great job keeping it up, but it is it is at a point where Uh Someday you're going to walk on it and walk through the paint is holding it together pretty much Those are all very helpful um answers to my questions. Thank you so much Are there any other commissioners with questions for the applicant or for mr. Mignet at this time? uh, yes, andi gulsby um one If you could clarify which uh style of roof you're putting on i've seen both standing seam and 5v In this report, um, if you could just clarify which one of those and then also mr. Mignet You mentioned condensation underneath the roof. Um Is there anything being done in this project? To help remediate uh that heat build up any soft events being added? Um, et cetera that would help alleviate that condensation so, um the uh product Uh, the 5v uh that you have seen in those uh in this file I believe was provided to me originally by the homeowner. Uh, they want certain 5v It's pretty much what everybody goes by People don't really know the difference 5v is unexposed fasteners and I I do not recommend this product And I have spoken with paul and told him he needed to go with a snap lock Which is what we have on screen right now. I call it snap lock I think uh right there. It's called nail strip. It's a very similar product. It is a hidden fastener system That's what we plan on installing on this roof um for the uh Condensation so back then there was no underlayment and between the metal and the wood now we put a synthetic underlayment um type uh Gosh, there's so many brands, but it's a synthetic underlayment So it it retains the the moisture but uh allow for breathing So the wood in case the wood gets wet for whatever reason it it it dries out um as far as the uh ventilation uh That will be more of the carpenter because the the carpentry will need to be modified and we won't do that it's going to be the carpenter And uh, we can definitely coordinate with them to to create the vent In the uh sulphate area and along um the the ridge area of the metal roof That metal roof will be terminated up against the siding with an apron and uh The decking of that roof can be cut two inch back From the siding down We can have a two inch strip all the way along the walls And when we install our apron, uh, we install it with a perforated Z bar type Which holds the apron down allow for the ventilation the hardware to come out But prevent bugs to get in so that's that's how we do that's a pretty standard Sheet metal detail right there for ventilation First By sure goes be any follow-up anything is if if there is any kind of Um ventilation, I think the staff would need to understand that if we are to approve it today um Or if we need Yeah, I would be okay Say we don't need to understand those details at this meeting But the staff in the long run would need to see it as part of their review Thank you Understood Any other commissioner questions for the applicant or mr. Menye If not, is there anyone else present who would like to speak for or against this case? Seeing no others. I will uh now close the public hearing uh to permit discussion amongst the commissioners Anybody want to lead us off? So are we still in it? You are Yeah, we're just taking a moment to discuss uh as a commission The the project so I'll kick us off. Um chair bouchard. Um, so The only comparison I have because I don't recall coming across a standing seam metal roof replacement in any of our prior cases the only basis of comparison I have um for How we've treated historic materials in other homes our windows We're very strict about windows And there could be very good reasons why we're not going to be or wouldn't want to be as strict With roofing materials as we are with windows Our criteria are Fairly clear That we should retain and repair original roof material. Um, I am certainly Impressed by mr. Menye's knowledge About the standing seam metal roof we're talking about the useful life of the material To me the evidence that's come in Suggest that this roof has lived its useful life and is beyond repair But we've had lots of discussion in the past about windows Lots of applicants come to us claiming that hey, I can't repair this window and You know, we say well, we think you can so I'm just curious to hear from anybody else. Um on the commission or for that matter from from carla on the question of Uh, whether or not we want to take a similar approach to ascending seam metal roof as we have in the past With respect to windows they could be completely Different products and should be treated entirely differently. But we've got criteria that are similar in terms of Um urging folks to retain rather than replace and I just wanted to put that on the table carla Rosenberg planning department. Um in my experience, um My education or about metal roofing if it's gotten to the point where you're spreading tar all over the roof It um, I would agree that it's past its useful life and I would feel comfortable Approving a replacement for it Regarding the 5e versus um the click and lock. I think the 5e does have a more Authentic profile, um, but I do get the longevity concerns especially given the history of leaking in this area and I think the click and lock gives a Similar one that they selected that it could suffice and I did check the criterion and color is a part of the consideration So we would want to make sure that that is part of the deliberation And just another on a separate topic I also wanted to Um see if we could discuss whether the likeness of the case style gutter was sufficient to outweigh the benefits of the half round commissioners, let's uh, let's tackle the um Gutter style first and then let's circle back on color Do any of our technical commissioners have perspectives on the type of gutter? April, um You know, you you might Uh, agree with me here, but I think I I tend to see half round use more when if it was, um If it would have been original to the house as opposed to the to this case style Um, I think what we've heard is that the case style often is there to mimic The the trim pieces that often were put around around the roofs Um, which You know to me is it's some You know a falsifying of what is supposed to be there. So I think the the half round would be more in keeping with um What is traditionally used? um commissionary goals of me I I do agree that um the half rounds are I think more historically appropriate though the case style did come um a bit later and I can't quite remember exactly when but I I feel like it was at least past the 1930 But um Yeah, you know the built-in saw the earlier versions and and that for my understanding and remembrance The half rounds would have been more appropriate for this particular house this house was built in I think the 1910s is that right carla? um and Yeah, it just would have been more appropriate, but I understand I I don't remember gutters being something that we reviewed before And I was I'm not sure if it was if it's something that's usually done as maintenance and we didn't review it um But yeah, I don't I don't know. I see a lot of case style on historic houses too um And I don't know if that's just because they're not in the local historic districts. I just haven't Thought about oh, is this house in a local sort of just I have a case out of my house. Um, or whether or not people just Um put up the gutter style that their roofer suggested Thank you vice chair goes be in commissioner johnson. Um Collie, do you want to jump in here? Yeah, um, I just looked up the case style gutter is a post 1940 gutter style um brief reopening of the public hearing just just to um confirm with the applicant what we heard I believe from mr. Mignet if if You went with half round If we were to recommend half round as opposed to case style, would you be amenable to that change? Yes, yes Yes, that's helpful. Thank you We are very amenable people If there's no more discussion about the gutter style, uh, let's talk about uh, roof color Does anyone want to lead us off how we might want to consider the roof color? roof color issue Um, I have a question. Is this something that we should be designing For them or should they should make the suggestion and we Approve it. Um, I think as long as the color is closest to What they have or what they believe is the original? Um, like the savory gray color that we already have You know, but I'm just I'm just gliria of wild colors and you know make that clear up front Because they have good situations where bright colors will put off roof. So as long as we're clear I think that's great advice commissioner johnson. Why don't we go ahead and briefly reopen the public hearing? to pose that question it does the applicant or mr. Mignet have A preference at this time. Is there something needs to be considered? Where do you stand on? the color issue right now In my mind, uh, you know, I haven't looked at um at you know the um The informational materials that that frank shared with us lately One does see that yeah, there's all kinds of reds. There's all kinds of greens. There's all kinds of blues um, I think that there are several different gray silvers or colors in that family and uh, You know, I I would be Well perfectly amenable, uh, you know to doing something in that in that group in that range of color Perhaps a little bit darker than the current Attempt at silver So maybe you know kind of a medium gray. I don't know but it would be You know something from ranging from bright silver to you know charcoal gray I I would say yes that uh something that That harmonizes with the gray shingle roofs, but it's not exactly the same probably a little lighter And thus more in constants with the original I think that it was a silver roof. Yeah, it must have been so so more like that But not pink or not red or blue or green Do you um, this is commissioned and I said, uh, if we put the palette The roof palette color palette up. Could you choose something so that we can just vote on that? Is that possible? Can we do that? Sure, I'll put it up. I also wanted to note that the city attorney's office, uh, krista had a um question as well Okay Um chair michard, can I jump in? Absolutely, please do. Thanks. Krista kuga city attorney's office Um, we've been having some internal discussion regarding color and I think our conclusion on the roof is that The commission can express a preference But it can't require the color on the roof Nor can it condition the color In this instance, so I just wanted to clarify that on the record I think this discussion is is fine You know to explore with the applicant to sort of get a sense of what they intend to do And again, the commission can express a preference But can't require Carl might have something to add but um Yeah, um So I was looking at the criterion that specifies color. Let me pull up the staff report again Let me share my screen um Okay, so select New gutters and downspouts appropriate to the style of the structure in design material color and placement Oh, that's gutters and downspouts Yeah Okay, right Okay, so I was incorrect about that Um for the roofing it's only the profile that says of concern I'm going to go ahead and to move things along Once more close, um the public hearing. I I think we've heard enough from the applicant in terms of what their Range looks like. I'm certainly comfortable if somebody whoever's going to make the motion wants to make a recommendation The color be you know within that silver or gray range But I think we've gone as far as we can on on that particular issue based on the limitations of the criteria Yes, uh, and I would just add to Andy bullsby. Uh, mr. Minier, if you would You know provide a couple of samples to the owner so they can see Truly what these colors look like Um, including including the gavel, um, which isn't pictured on here, but is often a choice in historic districts Um, the gavel volume I will have to check with the manufacturer because I'm not sure the gavel volume is an option for the Nail strip product. I think the gavel volume was an option for the 5v panels I will have to check with them Because the gavel volume is basically Galvanized steel that has an acrylic coating on top. It's not painted at all all the painted options are Have another two layers Paint and coating and what not the what they call the kinder. I'm sorry. I'm not too Knowledgeable in that matter. I don't like paint particularly so But all the information is on the flyer in the back Of this but but I'll be happy to to provide I believe I do have some dove gray and slate gray on hand I may have a leftover charcoal gray Those are the three Main gray colors available for the the panels the roof panels Really the most demanded but Yeah, for the gavel volume I need to I need to call the the manufacturer because I don't see it on the on their color chart Thank you Any other discussion commissioners I think this has been a very deliberate of process and I appreciate that. Do we have a recommendation from staff? Hello, Rosenberg planning department staff would recommend approval of the application with an amendment to The half-round gutter. Thank you very much. Do we have a motion? I'll make the motion Thank you commissioner de berry. Absolutely Um help me if I Stumble over all the different things we talked about The Durham Historic Preservation Commission finds that in case coa two one zero zero zero four nine 2040 englewood avenue modifications The applicant is proposing modifications to a contributing structure Original Yankee style gutters will be removed and replaced with half-round gutters and the surrounding porch Roof gavel removed and rebuilt at a slightly altered slope to eliminate flat surfaces Do we want to say something about color here? Let's go to the next bullet uh tad a traditional standing seam metal porch roof will be replaced with a modern standing seam metal roof I would if a color recommendation is being made. I think this would be the place to make it. Okay. Um, should we say that uh, they will go to Carla and um sort out a color Well, Carla Rosenberg um planning department So if we if the commission doesn't regulate, I was incorrect. I'm not a commission doesn't regulate color So I think it would be entirely up to that. We can Okay, so we'll just metal roof period Therefore the conclusion of law is that the proposed addition and alterations are consistent with the historic character and qualities of the historic district And are consistent with the historic properties local review criteria specifically those listed in the staff report And the Durham Historic Preservation Commission approves the certificate of appropriateness for case coa 21 00049 2040 angle would have a new modifications with the following conditions The improvement shall be substantially consistent with the plans and testimony presented to the commission at this commission hearing and in In the attached coa The improvements may require additional approvals from other city or county departments or state or local agencies The applicant is responsible for obtaining all required Approvals relating to building construction site work and work in the right of way and a compliance inspection shall be performed immediately upon completion of the work Approved here in I second Thank you commissioner waiters for the seconds Chloe if we could have a roll call vote, please And who was that the seconded? uh commissioner waiters Okay, thank you chair for sharm approved Commissioner de berry. Yes um vice chair will speak approved commissioner hamilton approved commissioner johnson approved commissioner waiters approved Mention passes six zero Congratulations, mr. Felblum and miss vote right. Uh, good luck with your project. Uh, thanks for all of your help mr Minier and and good luck helping the homeowners, uh Achieve their objective here Thank you. Thank you everybody Thanks frank You're welcome So we are leaving now. Thank you. Good luck with the rest of your morning's agenda. Thanks a lot And we'll have mr. Peterson bring in the presenters and speakers for our next case, which is Coa 21 000051 Uh, 215 more street modifications to accessory structure Uh before we hear from staff Just to confirm, uh, are there any commissioners who have a conflict of interest with respect to this case? Hearing none, let's proceed with the swearing in of anyone who plans to speak uh today For this case Hey, do you swear or affirm that this testimony you're about to give in the public hearing proceeding for today's case? It's the truth by your own knowledge or by information and belief Good morning. This is so hasn't used architecture design principle for the project from jacob's And yes, I do Miss st. Juist, do you also consent to the conducting of this hearing using this remote platform today? Yes, I do Wonderful. Thank you I believe that there are a couple of other team members from the project Also here in attendance Looks like you have a mr. Maglade joining yes, uh, sorry for that delay there, uh, james maglade with long fellow real estate properties Um, and thank you very much for having us. I also Agree to the statement made earlier Uh, which statement mr. Maglade? It was the oath Okay, so you you agree with the oath you also agree to the um Presentation of this case via this remote platform this morning. Yes, sir. Great Are we waiting for anybody else? um since Since I recently heard that the type of questions I would also like to introduce our technical architect rob rumberg who is also part of the team um If if there are any questions that he is able to answer from a technical standpoint Um, I would also ask that he um also be sworn it Miss Elliott Hey to you swear from that the testimony you're about to give in the public hearing proceedings for today's case This truth by your own knowledge or by information and belief Yes, I do And mr. Rumberg do you consent to proceeding today using this remote platform? Yes, I do. Thank you so much Chair ruchard before we continue chair ruchard before we continue. I'm sorry. This is Katie Hampton. I actually do need to um withdraw myself in this case I didn't realize we got this one, but steward my firm is working on this so I do need to recuse myself. All right. Commissioner Hamilton is recused. Uh, we still have quorum, correct? five commissioners Let us proceed with hearing the case starting with, uh, carlis staff report Carlo Rosenberg planning department. Uh, this is case coa 21 000 51 215 more street um modifications to an accessory structure The applicant is jacobs represented by so just stange used If the owner is measurement holdings llc Henry shirk The east it's located on the east side of more street between fernway avenue and west morgan street zoned residential suburban I don't think that's correct. Actually Leave it down. It's the downtown downtown design core Yes, okay And it's uh, the imperial tobacco building which is a landmark. It is not located in a historic district um So the applicant is proposing to incorporate the accessory structure associated with imperial tobacco as an entry vestibule for a new structure that's on an adjacent parcel and I want to clarify that the Both the land associated with 215 more street is not landmarked only the buildings So only the successory structure and this new structure that they are building is also on an adjacent part So parcel that is not landmarked. Um, so really the purview of this application is The um any changes that are made to the accessory structure itself So i'd like to introduce this staff report into the record and invite miss sanjus to represent her case Good morning everybody and and thank you again for having us Present to the commission today um From the very beginning. We knew that our building was on a very significant site in the city of durham Not only the prominence of the location, but also the historical context and our aim from the very beginning was to always Make sure that we're being respectful and understanding of the significance of the historical context And also being able to tie together the historical context with Contemporary architecture in a very meaningful A way that engages the public and engages the street level And in a very active way to tie together the urban fabric The project intent for this accessory carriage house structure Is to preserve rehabilitate and celebrate the historic context of it and thoughtful planning and consideration By our design team the owner the developer long fellow real estate partners and the design firm jacob's Has been taken throughout this whole process And we have really cited the new building Around the existing carriage house structure So major ways that we've celebrated and respected the structure is one Um preserving major views to significant facades of the structure as well as the imperial tobacco company building From various vantage points around the site to a point where we're Not meeting the 80 frontage requirement from the zoning requirement in order to preserve that view shed from morgan street to the One prominent facade where the two original windows are located And also preserving the views from the belt line side To the existing imperial tobacco company building and creating a landscape design that really focuses and frames the major view To the prominent facade Of the three garage doors from the street And another way we've also Created care and is the massing of the building. So we've created a podium structure a three-story podium structure That steps down from a four-story On the imperial tobacco building side to create that massing relationship Between the imperial tobacco company building and the new building and it also transitions down In scale to the original carriage house building We've also engaged the structure in a meaningful way By celebrating the three-dimensional masonry turrets on the corner So there's a turret on each corner of the building instead of pushing our building directly against these three-dimensional turrets We've created a glass plane enclosure around the building that contrasts with the masonry in order to Accentuate and celebrate the masonry structure But also to create a volume around the three-dimensional turrets on the back of the building to the west facade Of the building and really engage that structure from all directions from the interior from the exterior And really create that public face and public front and allow that that structure to be engaged from all different sides and then also in our restoration repair and rehabilitation Various significant evidence of a major structural and water damage throughout the structure Our team aims to repair and restore the structure And replace the roof slab and major cracks in the facade or repair the major cracks in the facade due to these several structural and water damage areas We've also proposed to create an opening in the back of the structure that opens into the public lobby And we're able to use The bricks taken from that opening to be able to patch and repair other areas of damage To the building so that we can use as many of the original masonry Masonry units as possible I know that Overall we've we've looked at Some Ways that we can continuously inhabit the structure and create from what is a private sort of locked structure That's not open to the public To create more of an engaging public experience for the structure um, I would like to um If appropriate at this time Also pass it to mr. Mclaid who can give an owners and developers perspective as well Okay. Thank you so ha Um Longfellow is no stranger to durham and historical historical sites We currently are managing the old Carmichael building along west main street as well as The 710 west main street street building which uh as many you recall Was damaged by the the gas explosion a couple years ago. So we are um Very astute to the the needs to maintain the historical aspects of downtown durham And this happens to lie right in the heart of the of the durham innovation district Which we are planning Throughout this area The current owner is measurement ink. Um, we are in a master development agreement with them So although they're the current owner Um With the building of this building we would be purchasing this land and then incorporating this building um as soha mentioned, um, you know We see this as an exciting opportunity to embrace the old and the new and to Actually give new life to this to this structure um, it has obviously um, not been well maintained and Currently is is used as a maintenance shop and the ability to incorporate this into our design And and make it an amenity for for our new building We see as a very exciting opportunity Thank you. Mr. Mclaid Do any of the proponents have anything else to offer at this time then I would ask the commissioners to um Present any questions they have for the applicant you want to lead off This is this a equals v is is the structure is the I guess uh, let me ask the point excuse me Is the property line going through the structure or how how does this property subdivide it for this building? um, I can answer uh the The parcel line is is being adjusted. Uh, as jim mentioned, they'll be purchasing Uh part of the land. Um, so the parcel line will be readjusted so that the carriage house portion is all on um, the new building property, which is 518 less Morgan Carla was in the planning department. Um, just to clarify the landmark overlay does not change with parcel line changes So Carla just to just say it the carriage house will still be a landmark structure Correct. Um, right. So the land isn't landmarked anyway. Um, but the land the landmark was It included the building the primary structure and the accessory structure when it was first designated and so that Accessory structure will remain landmark just the building only the second question um to the to the design team and uh an owner Can you can you describe how? uh, this glass facade That surrounds the carriage house will engage the building. How will it be attached? How will Some of the details. I know it's early on in the design process but how you might perceive some of these details being played out in When it touches the carriage house I'm going to defer. I'm going to ask rob. Um to answer this question. We have discussed This internally and also with with carla as well. Um, rob if you if you would go ahead Yeah, absolutely. Um, so the the current design as you said is still you know being advanced But we would we have some geometric Differences to make up as well. Um, so as part of that we would be Anchoring a a metal plate to the carriage house Fastening into the mortar joints That could then be be sealed with a masonry like joint And then basically create a a clean flat surface That is not the original carriage house structure that we could then seal our curtain wall to so basically You know trying to be as sensitive as possible to any type of anchoring into the carriage house structure So that it can be completely reversible and then any of the kind of You know try to move those wet joints onto the intervening plate that that our curtain wall can then seal to And what about the roof level and parapets? Yes at the roof level. Um, we have building structure in that area that we would have Steel kind of outriggers that would catch the the bottom of that curtain wall And so we would basically be creating a a roof curb At the at the carriage house but below the level of um, you know kind of below the parapet level line So that it's not really visible from you know from the surrounding area And that's the um, yeah, I was looking at the section on page 10 Of your your report. So that's the The Gray thicker gray line coming down to the left Right, right those would be building columns to the left And we would have yeah kind of outriggers at that at the roof level basically that pick up the the load of the curtain wall So that no none of the None of the curtain wall load is transmitted into any of the Carriage house structure so again keeping that removed from the the historic structure and putting all of that You know all the weight and the the The any of the lateral loads going back into the main building structure So really the only from what i'm hearing correct me if i'm wrong the only real attachment you would have to these roofs is the steel angle That that may be part of it But also flashings they come up to that curtain wall Right, right. It would just be yes reflashing that that ties in Thank you Any other commissioners with questions for the applicant? okay Seeing and hearing none Is anyone else present who would like to speak for or against the case Seeing and hearing from no one else We will close the public hearing and discuss amongst the commissioners any commissioners with Comments they would like to share Matt Andy Andy bullsby. Um I will be honest. I am I am struggling with this one Uh, and it potentially be in addition to the carriage house Um, and would love to hear from from fellow commissioners um When I look at the criteria about accessory structures particularly Section l1 of the landmarks it talks about In keeping with the sections above and when we think it's two additions in section eight And so my where I struggle is yes is this new building in addition to the carriage house Um, I think if it was working in the other direction, we would always see the carriage house being in addition to the To the this larger structure Carla Rosenberg planning to So, uh, I emailed you about this right in mind. I've seen it. Um the The actual structure that's being built is on a separate parcel. So we so I I really viewed that as new construction and this structure being incorporated as an entry portal and and that this New structure isn't really pretending to be in addition. It's its own It's its own thing and it's incorporating The accessory structure into it kind of absorbing it But not pretending to be an accessory structure. Uh, sorry an addition that was my take on it Because that new construction is on a separate parcel that is not landmarked. And so there's every right to build it that way um, the question is whether it can absorb this accessory structure in as its entry portal Mr chairman commissioned very I see this is is similar to the glass vestibule um A piece that we approved for west village Maybe a couple years ago, which I really struggled with too at the time um But I I think using that as precedent which I I hate to do because every case is different I I can see where this Is probably the best outcome for this building so I think that trumps maybe a little bit of the um Of the Getting down in the dirt on the criteria So I can support this Thank you commissioner de berry Yes, um commissioner johnson I can support this application. I agree with commissioner de berry The alternative is would have with the way thermal zone now is to demolish a request to demolish the carry child and I'm grateful and thankful that they chose that the applicant chose to do the restoration and repair work work and incorporate And maintain this accessory structure as part of the last game As we continue as the community continues to grow and build on property so It's still here And it still can be told as part of the story of The main structure so I can support this application Commissioner waiters. We've not heard from you. Do you have any perspectives on this that you'd like to share? I had some concerns about the impact on the building itself, but again uh, I can I can agree it is different But the supporting structure as long as it does not cause any Problems with the existing structure. I am okay with it Mr. Goolsbee based on anything uh that you heard from commissioner de berry or anybody else Does that Or from carla does that in any way address your concerns? Do you still have concerns that you'd like to see addressed? um I mean I have concerns, but I think in hearing from my fellow commissioners I can I can you know, essentially walk with everybody else on this one so Any other discussion commissioners? Hello rosemary planning department. Um, one thing I did bring up in the staff report That you might also want to consider is the fact that the rear end of this building is being incorporated into another structure and becomes an interior space and so Technically not regulated By the commission and so um, there is an option to do some sort of deed restriction That would protect that rear Elevation and the turrets et cetera architectural details, et cetera Um question for staff did the details of the landmark When they got approved did it state that any interior? was part of the Review process or is it just the exterior of the of the landmark? Carla rosemary planning department. It's always um exteriors only Okay, thank you Do any of the commissioners want to take up the issue of a possible deed restriction? Oh Sure, I do think that would be appropriate. I just don't know how to go about About that. We haven't done that as in my tenure Uh, carla rosemary planning department. So we um had one case last year um where this was an issue and The protocol was to add a condition requiring the deed restriction and then the applicant would You know consult their attorney come up with the language and then it could be approved by staff if the language were satisfactory And then proof of the deed restriction actually being in place And carla if you could just articulate in a little bit more detail, what what would be the purpose of the deed restriction here? it would be to protect the um Rear portion of the uh, Of the accessory structure of the landmark. So um, it would say something like um, no alteration no further alterations may be made to this Shell of the landmark structure Maybe uh Krista kukro if you wouldn't mind Um Saying would that could we require it to go back to the commission if it's If it's an interior Space just because it's exterior to the land the actual landmark Could that be a part of the deed restriction to require? Review by the commission in the future or would we just say no changes ever permitted? Krista kukro city attorney's office. Um You know, I think considering The scope of this project. It may be helpful to allow for flexibility Um, we can certainly draft whatever's most appropriate. Um, I think one thing that I do want to note is that Any condition such as that that we would put on the approval that the applicant does need to consent to it? Both on the record and kind of in writing later as part of the coa um I think I'm a little fuzzy on exactly kind of the the scope of what we're talking about in terms of the restriction I know the one that carlo was referring to earlier Um, there was the exterior Of a home and there was a porch. I think being added on to it. And so There were still kind of considerations of if if the porch was later removed That the exterior of the home we wouldn't want that modified. And so I think Anything that we're talking about has to be related to sort of the exterior not the interior and again I think I'm looking for a little bit of clarification on that Um, I know I've said a lot so I'll sort of pause here and see if there's Um any comments in terms of clarification. Are we actually talking about the interior exterior? We're talking about the exterior of the accessory structure Which becomes part of the interior space to the new structure around so it kind of gets swallowed in a little bit About one quarter of it is now Interior to the new structure that's being built Okay Collar has there been any discussions about further development of that particular area? Uh development beyond this new structure that we're seeing here I believe there is I believe there is a site plan submitted But maybe the applicant could speak more to that Thank you the intention of For the for the carriage house is that it it becomes incorporated within the lobby For for the entire building So as so ha mentioned earlier there be an opening In what is as you're looking at this image on the left hand side. So it would be free flowing From the new building lobby into the carriage house itself So the the intention the use of it is is to maintain the structure as is we would have no issue agreeing to agreeing to such terms because That's where we see the value in the structure is is it's it's historical value and the way it it can be incorporated into into our building Any other commissioner discussion If not, can we have staff recommendation, please? Carl Rosenberg planning department staff would recommend approval of the application with the condition of a deed restriction to protect the rear Quarter of the accessory structure that becomes interior to another structure. Thank you with that. I'll go ahead and take a stab at a motion here with that condition It's chair bouchard the Durham Historic Preservation Commission finds that in the case coa 21 00051 215 Morris street modifications to accessory structure The applicant is proposing modifications to a landmark accessory structure The original garage doors will be removed and displayed on site replacement wooden glass doors imitating the original glazing and cross bracing pattern will occupy the unmodified door opening a single Wood entry door will be removed and replaced in kind and the door opening reduced by 12 inches at the bottom All windows will be retained and repaired with new glazing The garage itself will be partially incorporated into the footprint of an adjacent building visually transected by a glass curtain wall A new opening measuring 11 feet wide by nine and a half feet tall will be created in the rear wall to get pedestrian access through the garage to the adjacent building Masonry repairs will be made using original bricks salvaged from the new opening And soft mortar to match the surrounding masonry Downspouts and scuppers not original to the structure will be removed Therefore the conclusion of law is that the proposed addition and alterations are consistent with historic character and qualities of the historic district And are consistent with historic properties local review criteria specifically those listed in the staff report And the Durham historic preservation commission approves the certificate of appropriateness for case coa 21 00051 215 morris street modifications to accessory structure with the following conditions One the improvements shall be substantially consistent with the plans and testimony presented to the commission at this commission hearing and attached to the coa Two the improvements may require additional approvals from the city or county departments or state or local agencies The applicant is responsible for obtaining all required approvals relating to building construction site work and work in the right of way Three a compliance inspection shall be performed immediately upon completion of the work approved here in and four The applicant shall submit for staff review and approval a deed restriction prohibiting any further modifications to the rear wall Other than those approved by the commission through this motion second commissioners jocelyn I think we can have a roll call, please Yes, um chair bouchard approved Uh, commissioner de bairie approved vice chair willsby approved commissioner johnson approved commissioner waders approved Motion passes five zero Congratulations all and uh, good luck on this uh, very exciting project. We wish you luck Thank you very much. We very much for you greatly appreciate it Thank you Commissioners a point of personal privilege. Can we take five and return at 1040? Yes Okay, see you back here in five. Thank you As we're starting the return, this is chris peterson from the playing department Um, we are bringing in our participants for the next case c oa 52 If you if you're having trouble getting in please let me know by raising your hand. Thank you Commissioners as you return if you could please put your cameras on so I know that you are back. That'd be helpful Chair bouchard. Um, I apologize. My camera has not worked all morning, but I am here. Okay Chair bouchard all um registered attendees for this case are present. Um, Elizabeth coffee is unable to we can't seem to promote her to a panelist But she does have the ability to speak Okay, let's see commissioner johnson is definitely back. Commissioner hamlson is definitely back commissioner areas here Commissioner waiters if you can turn your camera on when you're back if you're back Wonderful. Thank you and vice chair ghoulsby if you can turn your camera on once you're back Same with carla rozenberg, please Carla is back And so is vice chair ghoulsby Which case we're going to proceed uh to hear case Coa Excuse me two one zero zero zero five two six seventeen and six fifteen moorhead avenue additions and site work before we hear from staff Is there anyone of our commissioners who may have a conflict of interest in hearing this case? If not, then let us proceed with the swearing in of anyone who plans to speak for this case I realize we have a number of folks here So if you could please just take your time state your name and affirm the oath after it is read by clerk elliot Okay, do you swear or affirm that it's testimony you're about to give in the public hearing proceeding for today's case Is the truth by your own knowledge or by information and belief Are you not off? I do Rob kramer 310 I do Danny howl real engineering I do All Fox 310 architecture Interiors I do Ryan Gibson I do And do each of you consent to this hearing being conducted through Uh, this remote platform sorry with mr. Medoff Yes Mr. Kramer Yes, mr. Howell Yes, mr. Fox. Yes And mr. Gibson. Yes wonderful We may now proceed with the staff summary carla Rosenberg planning department This is case CLA 21 0005 2 The property is 617 and 615 more have more head avenue additions and site work The applicant 310 architecture and interiors rob kramer The owner arose to 617 LLC are in enough It's looking on the south side of more head avenue between vickers avenue and south duke street Zone office and institutional and it's a contributing structure in the moorhead hill historic district So the applicant is proposing to construct a rear addition and a screen porch And also perform some site work um, you may recall some of you a coa that was um Approved back in 2019, but that work was never completed. So I'd like to um Introduce this staff report into the record And invite the applicant to present their case great Thank you commissioners and and staff My name is arie medoff and this is Very exciting for us to be presenting to y'all. It's the culmination five years of work that uh that I have had and and put forward as a dream to bring a really wonderful service to this neighborhood and this community's senior population We envision the arosa club as a social space for the elderly to be able to come together Monday through friday or monday through saturday for enriching programming and socialization And I think we all know how desperately needed that is And this pandemic has only highlighted The importance of these types of spaces and services. So Thank you all for your consideration here and I'd very much like to introduce Paul fox and rob kramer with 310 architecture to explain more about the The construction of this project. Thanks arie and thank you to the commission and staff Now the arosa club will be a premier adult day club Which will aim to promote the well-being of seniors in the community Members will enjoy a variety of enriching activities and opportunities for social connection The proposed addition Would expand these opportunities beyond the current footprint of the of the structure By providing additional space for for these activities accessibility to the building will be improved with the inclusion of new accessible parking spaces And a new accessible entrance into the building via the addition And as well as a new accessible restroom These proposed improvements will allow the arosa club to better serve its members as well as expand Membership beyond any current opportunities with the existing footprint to serve additional seniors in the Durham community Thank you Thank you anybody else hearing nothing further from the proponent I'll open the floor for questions from the commissioners commissioners any questions no questions Hearing none. I'll ask if there is anyone else present who would like to speak for or against the case before closing the public hearing Hearing from nobody we will now close the public hearing and discuss amongst commissioners commissioners any discussion this is an apology. Oh um Just real quick. I I would love to get katie's take on sight lighting and um, because I think it's one of the first projects I've been whether it's been um several um Site lights added to the project and just curious about your take on it katie still here I think No, I excuse myself in the last case. Sorry I was trying to pull up the exact All right. I'm going to virtual desktop. So it's a struggle that I'm trying to overcome this morning um the Site lighting I saw they have like, you know the duke energy poles that are pretty standard um And then other than that I only saw the wall pack was there Or the wall sconce was there other exterior lighting that I missed Yes, I just asked There's some street lighting and I forgot I did have questions about that. I thought that was the other case. Um Yeah, this one I think is is restricted to Parking lot, I think let's see if I'm looking at Sheet s l 1.1 Okay, um I do have a comment about that Um, but I'll I'll let katie go ahead and make her comment before I go ahead um Are you talking about the shoebox light though and is that what you're asking about the Yeah, it just you know brightness You know overall take on on parking lot lights In historic districts Yeah, I mean my um They're very regulated in their um light levels and the um In both parking lots and sidewalks and everything. Um It does look like there's A good number of these shoebox lights. Um, but I don't know. I guess I'd need the applicant to verify If these are the actual placements or if they're gonna have duke energy come in and do they'll you know The light levels after this to verify I guess can I open it back up to the applicant to verify that this is actually a quantity? Or Anyone from the applicant want to fill that question? Sure. Thank you. Again. My name is Danny. How was real engineering? uh, we did a placeholder as it were for the site lighting as part of our hbc lighting, but just so uh commissioners and staff everyone knows we also concurrently have submitted a tier two level four site plan for both of these improvements for The one we're talking about now, which is rosa and the adjacent ccaba building and Through that we have done a full lighting plan with The lumens and everything listed on the plan and we actually were able to reduce The number of actual light poles as well the original Plans you guys have there's pretty much a light pole at every one of the parking bays But we were able actually to reduce that greatly from our site plan Some middle so there there's only four shoebox pictures spaced throughout the property And again meeting all of the lighting requirements of the udo Thank you Okay. Yeah, that makes me a lot more control and and I know that you know when I do these all the time I just throw in Where I think they'll go and then Normally reduces them from a civil engineer landscape architect putting them on the site so Four shoebox fixtures does not um I guess the applicant my question would be where are those final four? Land are they closer to your building or are they closer to your property line? Looking at the plan on the screen now In the we're seeing that plan north is straight up But in the northeast corner of the parking lot on the east side of the arosa building We show a pole there and then the five spaces. It's in the southeast Section we have a pole there and one pole directly in front of where the screen porch is off of the back in the parallel spaces We have a pole there and then one pole on the west The southwest side of the ccaba building So it's spread throughout the parking lots um Yeah, candy. I I'm comfortable with that many of these shoebox like fixtures um Like a deep energy you read them and all and so yeah, it seems appropriate Thank you chair helmton vice-goalsby. Is that answer the questions you had about the light poles? It does. Thank you Any other discussion amongst commissioners? I would like to have a discussion about the design of the lighting fixture um Duke power does offer design um lighting fixtures that fit In a little bit closer to the character of historic districts and um, I just want to understand The shoebox fish fixtures that a type of style of a light fixture you will find It for that period of significant significance for this particular neighborhood this community This house was built in the 1930s So that would mean that the light fixtures would either kind of look like gas lantern pendants or globes or something like that, but this particular Style is not what you would have found or it doesn't actually fit the character. Um, and so I want to know From the applicant perhaps perhaps how they chose the shoebox design Or does Duke no longer offer those particular styles anymore? Or you know, how did how did you select that? Um, there this is Danny Howells real engineering again, uh, there was you know, there's not a lot of street lighting Uh ends when surrounding the the duke facility directly to our east has again, they're all Very just the similar generic street lighting Poles that you'll see anywhere. There's no real historic Lighting anywhere in the area and again person, you know from some of our udo requirements. We're going to have cut off You know issues with app property lines So, you know doing like this acorn type fixtures and stuff like that. They really You know, they bleed out. They can bleed over So to meet the the lighting standards of the site itself as well as the cutoff of the property those type of structures can become troublesome from a design standpoint And meeting those requirements, but again, we are we are open and we've we've we as a design team have asked, you know Internally of us and we also mentioned it's Carla as well Just trying to get an idea. Hey if There's not really anything in the area that is setting a style or a precedent. It's just your typical You know street lighting Well, and I think that I think that that's probably because over the years, you know, these lights these light fixtures get replaced But now that now now that we're in a local historic district We start to look at as things become introduced into the district. We start to look at Style and design and so this is when we can go The way I understand the statue. This is when we can go back as things are being introduced and follow What the guideline said and said, you know, does this fit with the historic character of the district? Or sometimes if we don't see the This is my understanding and I can you know, we can have a discussion with the rest of my colleagues, but If we don't see this particular pattern set The way I understand it is that when you look at well, what would have been typical um for this particular period and in this period um, we will not See this particular type of design. It will look A slightly different and I know that do I'm looking at their website now. They do still offer those those other types of designs that fit into their distress And so I I'm not I mean, I don't know. Um, I can We can just have this discussion with commissioners and I can get their opinions and thoughts on this Any other commissioners want to discuss the design of the light fixtures And the historic district go ahead. Uh Commission to Barry Carla did we in the the very large development right across vickers from this? um, did we specifically approve Lighting over there, um, or is that something you're going to deal with later? um I just feel like this is this Development is in an island where there's a lot of stuff going on around it and um, I don't want to impose things on them that have not been imposed elsewhere. Sorry. Um, I had to escape a um A lawnmower. Um, could you repeat what what you were saying at the beginning? Yes, that that there's that large town home condo development right across vickers from this site. Um, and Did we impose any lighting? Um restrictions over there? um I don't Sorry. Yeah, I don't remember lighting being a topic of discussion. Um, I guess because there was just so much So many other things to talk about um in that in that case I don't remember lighting being specific Katie, do you remember Commissioner Hamilton. Yeah, so they proffered the lighting that was more of an acorn style One from Duke Energy. They did not use the shoebox lights. Um On that little alleyway that they had they had more of like an acorn style one I do see hands uh raised by both mr. Howe and mr. Fox. Um, so I'll reopen the public hearing briefly to hear the comments They might have to to make on this topic Oh, you can go first if you'd like Thank you. Um, mr. Um Commissioners, I guess I would like to also comment. We we actually struggled with the selection or choices of the lighting For this project. Um, because it's a two-part project There's an obviously contributing and non contributing on the property and there were no the existing lights obviously were just Typical lights that people installed Many years ago. There's no design to them. Um, and our our decision was really based on a light fixture But just to reiterate what Danny Howell was mentioning is a light source that would focus light down on parking and safety And and tend to disappear Um, that was what we were trying to do is to let it be like us minimally invasive The acorn light does cast light out It calls attention to itself So that was our decision. Um, we were we really fought long and hard over this But we thought this was better for the entire site and for the long term And that's all I have Now the same thing is uh, just you know, like Paul said we we've talked about it as you know internally with our group And again, those acorns just like I said, they're tough to shield but there are some shielding options But then it takes away And again, my thing draws more attention to the light Which we're again trying to make it so it kind of blends in with the site and there's just no You know, I guess it's other side you're mentioning but I can't haven't found any other acorn Lights in the vicinity that are all the cobra head style That I'm sure that no one necessarily cares for But uh, just your typical street lighting again, they call it a cobra head but um So again, there's just no light comparison in the area Thank you very much. Um, I'll reclose the public hearing. Um and reopen the floor for uh, commissioner johnson or anyone else to Continue the conversation here about these lights Okay Hearing none any other issues that the commissioners want to discuss before we ask for a staff recommendation Seeing and hearing none. I will go ahead and ask carla for a staff recommendation For the rosemary planning department staff would recommend approval of the application Thank you, carla. Would anyone care to make a motion? This is commissioner hamilton. I can make a motion Thank you, kate um The germ historic preservation commission finds that in the case c o a 1 0 0 0 5 2 um 6 17 and 6 15 more head avenue additions and modification The applicant is proposing additions and site work to contribute structure an addition Measuring approximately 200 square feet and a screened porch measuring approximately 600 square feet will be located at the rear of the primary structure encapsulating a trio of original windows The addition will be constructed of brick with a six light aluminum clad wood casement window The screen porch will be constructed of wood posts and beams trimmed with solid pvc With dark gray screen panels on a brick foundation 132 inch multi-stemmed mulberry will be removed from the far rear yard Three street trees will be planted along the public right away and four more will be planted at the entrance to the driveway and parking area And more head avenue parking lot lighting will be installed measuring 25 feet in height and of black metal Therefore the conclusion of law is that the proposed addition and alterations are consistent with the historic during qualities of the historic district And are consistent with the historic property's local review criteria specifically those listed in the staff report And the germ historic commission approves the certificate of appropriateness 4 k c o a 2 1 0 0 0 5 2 6 17 and 6 15 more head avenue additions and site work with the following conditions Improvements shall be consistent Substantially consistent with the plans and testimony presented to the commission at this commission hearing and attached to the c o a The improvements may require additional approvals from other city or county departments or state or local agencies The applicant is responsible for obtaining all required approvals relating to building construction site work and working right away This approval is conditioned on the approval of the associated site plan Case d 1 0 0 2 4 9 and a compliance inspection shall be performed immediately upon completion of the work approved here in second any goals we thank you Jerry chair bouchard approved commissioner de berry proof as chair bolsby for commissioner hamilton Commissioner johnson now And commissioner waders approved Motion passes five one I believe many of the same folks who Presenting on this case need to stick around for the next Chris peterson are there other folks who need to be brought into the next hearing? There are one moment, please chair. I'm just bringing in gregory taylor and There's one other jim hop I believe came in as well And jennifer martin I'm having trouble Promoting greg taylor, so I'm just going to give them permission to speak. They might not be able to enable their microphone And that's everybody All right, we will now hear case c oa 2 1 0 0 0 5 3 6 25 moorhead avenue 1005 vickers avenue new construction and site work Before we hear from staff. Is there any one of our commissioners who would have a conflict of interest in hearing this case? Seeing and hearing from nobody Let us proceed with the swearing in of anyone who plans to speak For or against this case I will try to do this by calling out the names one by one. I think I have everybody's names who are planning on speaking If we could start clerk elliott with you reading the oath Okay, do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give them the public care proceedings? For today's case, is the truth by your own knowledge or by information or belief? Mr. Metta I do Mr. Kramer I do Mr. Howell I do Mr. Fox Mr. Fox, you're on mute. I do. Thank you. Mr. Gibson I do Mr. Happ I do Thank you Mr. Taylor I'm great Taylor was on but I think we lost them. Okay Ms. Martin I do And I'm going to ask each of you if you consent to this case being heard through the remote platform We're using this morning starting with mr. Metta. Yes, mr. Kramer. Yes, mr. Howell. Yes Mr. Fox. Yes, mr. Gibson. Yes, mr. Happ Yes, Ms. Martin. Yes Have we gotten mr. Taylor back? I did not meet see mr. Taylor, but um, I'll let you know chair if he comes in Please do we'll need to make sure that he takes the oath as well as consents to The case being heard by the virtual means While we're waiting for him to join Let us move forward because we've got a busy docket and I'll ask Carly to provide a staff report Hello, this is my planning department. This is case coa 21 000 53 This is 625 moorhead avenue 1005 vickers avenue new construction and site work Um, and I'd like to clarify that that address changed During um the processing of this application. So the application materials express a different Um address, but it is the same parcel Uh owner eros 617 llc re made off the owner 310 architecture and interiors I'm sorry those are Mixed up. Um, the owner is eros 617 llc re made off the applicant 310 architecture and interiors are kramer I'm located on the southeast quadrant of the intersection of moorhead avenue and vickers avenue zoned off as an institutional And it's a non-contributing structure Door parcel in the the moorhead hill historic district. Um, so the applicant is proposing to construct a new one-story primary structure On the site and perform associated site work, which is linked with the case that we just heard I'd like to introduce the staff report into the record and invite Continue to again present their case Thank you carla Miss meadow floors yours Thank you carla and chairman bouchard and commissioners and staff and neighbors um, I feel incredibly blessed to be able to bring this project forward um, I linked up with cc aba Last year, which is a a wonderful company providing ABA therapy services to children who are on the autism spectrum this is a Therapy a service for children that is desperately needed There are wait lists across the state of north carolina across the whole country and certainly here in derm and the triangle and so What we are envisioning here is a very well thought out and designed space and building for Children to receive the help that they need and and and really make a difference in their lives And so, um, you know, I appreciate all the good work that uh, paul and robbin and our entire team has put Into into thoughtfully designing this project with that. I'd love to pass it over to uh to paul and rob Thanks, arie and thank you to commission and to staff and also to the neighbors and attendants uh ABA applied behavioral analysis Uses the science of learning and behavior to help individuals lead independent and successful lives So cc aba Is is dedicated to improving the lives of children with autism their families and the surrounding communities So that the proposed new building is a single story hipt roof structure The plan features a large recessed front porch and the main Entrance is located in the rear since parking is is along the The rear the back of the site uh And yet the the moorhead elevation the front elevation if you will Features a front door expression under that front porch work. We're proposing Which is which is greeted by the historic steps and a sidewalk from From this from the street sidewalk proposed facade materials are fiber cement siding with vertical board and battens In a dark gray This material is accented with brick in two different colors Now the proposed roofing is a pre-finished standing seam A metal in gray and a pre-finished aluminum gutters in gray also Windows are all vertically Proportions with a high horizontal horizontal million to create a transom expression Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Kramer Anybody else proponents of the application like to speak Mr. Fox Yeah, thank you commission. Um, I would also like to add and thank you Rob. That was a quick explanation um when we were we've been working with For a few years now and they um and multiple and multiple multiple townships and cities in north carolina And one when this opportunity with arie And this site came up we as designers were very excited Because it proposed a lot of new challenges From an architecture perspective and planning and how to work with the surrounding site and community um And being a non-contributing Building as well We were we were interested in this and so what we took great link to try to Merge the architecture of the new building Into the community but also trying to build something that was being would be built today Um, so we we definitely love the site. We love this project. We've tried to take great care in detail with Things connected to the building Um with relative to things that you're probably not going to see today that the signage and those elements That are being introduced are not about About signage. It's not about visibility It's about things that are meaningful and about who the the users will be which are children And then that's all that I have to say for now. Thank you Thank you, mr. Fox any other speakers Who would like to present in favor of the application? Seeing none. I will ask for commissioners uh to Direct questions to the applicant This is commissioner hamilton. I was wondering if the arborist Um speak to their analysis of all the trees Yes, do you want to hear tree of the time or in general? Um I suppose if you could just talk to the larger Trees and not so much, you know the nothing in the like, you know The twirling The larger All of her trees, please So you're talking about the sugar maples and the water oak? Yes, please In my report I show the uh Condition of all these trees I was asked to do a health and safety analysis. It's just this is just visual I did not do any kind of uh chemical just visual The silver maples Will do those first. They're pretty much alike. They have a lot of rock You can see by the pictures. You can see all the rock. You can see all the dead branches Um, all the dead branches are a sign of rotten the trees Uh, silver maples are notorious for this They don't ever really die. They just fall apart and their their Problem with them is the danger of the large branches falling off Um, these trees and the water oak which I'll do next I'll have a major power line running through them and they have not pruned that yet Um As you know how they prune which everybody likes electricity They cut a pretty good hole in trees and they cut off large branches The large branches are not recommended to be cut off of old trees, which these are it just adds to the Entrance points for a fungal activity Uh, the water oak It has multiple dead large dead branches in an also and also does show damage at the bottom for The existence of rot in the tree now It's a very pretty tree But it is a danger with all these large tree Branches that are have fallen off and when they do prune it it'll probably look like a freight train goes through it But the problem is they cut off these large branches Now I wrote down, uh new hope road and there were trees Flagged to be cut down where they had previously pruned and they had died So that's my problem with these trees on on this road is The existence of rot and the power line come through it when they prune it it will just be more of a problem um That's really all I have to say about those Which other tree did you want me to address? Um, I think that's sufficient. I just wanted it on the record. Um What what the issues were in so it's a current issue of rot and a future issue of Um, destructive pruning of leaders is really what you're Yes, you can see from the pictures all the rot that's already in the trees and this will just uh Make it exponential when they do that all the trees on the site were in poor health Uh, other than the uh rats prepare out front which have been outlawed in Several states now because they're invasive Yeah, I have no problem with that for the middle of a bread front I'm okay They're outlawed in south carolina You can't plan them Thank you, mr. Hopp for those answers. Um to chair excuse me to commissioner Hamilton's questions Do any of the commissioners have questions for the applicant? I'll go um out since this is a different case. I'll go ahead and post the same question about the design of the lighting. Um Was there any consideration to uh, incorporate? um A lighting street lighting parking parking lot lighting design more appropriate for the historic character of the district Ones that are offered by um duke duke power This is uh, dany dany howl with real engineering. Uh, thank you, mr. Johnson um Again, we've we've had some inner struggles with the design team trying to figure out, you know, the appropriate style of lighting Uh for these sites, there's just really no precedent set at any of the nearby facilities in the area that would You know promote a light that would be I guess more And they said with the the time frame everything has just been added over time, you know, would your uh cober style Uh lighting that I don't think that anyone necessarily cares for um, so we are looking at doing uh your More of a shoebox style and what mr. Fox alluded to on a previous project is they kind of disappeared their black You know aluminum 25 foot tall cut off So you don't you don't have to worry about the bleed over going to adjacent properties. They like they give this the site Lighting from a safety standpoint, but they just kind of blend in So with our landscape against what we have on site spaced appropriately from the light poles Uh, they will kind of the goal is for them to disappear Into the landscape Thank you. Mr. Howl Mr. Johnson any follow-up um, no my No, I just Um, I think we're overlooking that aspect of the guidelines and we're not considering Um lighting design. Um, and so I just want to bring that up to the commission that That's that aspect that we have that we have to review as well design does the design of the lighting fixture Um fit within the historic character of the district and there are ways to look up What was typical for that period? Um Of lighting design Thank you Sure brishard. Uh, mr. Fox has his hand raised I did not see that mr. Fox Hi there. Um, again, i'm from mr. Johnson I appreciate your comments and we are not opposed to to the other the a quarter fixture I should say that Um, and we really did think about it a lot. We think that for this particular project. This was a better choice um, because we're blending um the lighting for two different types of buildings um and the it is kind of the customary thing that we as lighting design we as designers are trying to Um, find fixtures that light up our subjects and not lights just just for the sake of lighting a fixture itself Again, you know with with the commission's We're you know opinion if we need to change that we're open to it, but we prefer we think this is the better fixture Making mr. Fox I'll go ahead and ask a question related to the siting of the facility This is uh chair brishard now I I realize we've got a nearly 5700 square foot building and I'll acknowledge that you need to have parking in order to serve that facility um The concern I have is if i'm standing on the southeast corner of vickers and moorhead it would appear that it'd be a fair amount of um obstruction of The building we just talked about in our previous hearing um at 617 moorhead avenue um What considerations were given to that issue and Is there anything that can be proposed to potentially mitigate? That issue dany would you like to Speak to Our decision as to siting please. Sure. I was seeing if paul rob wanted to uh step in as well But we we definitely talked about this at link two with our design team And we you know, we've looked at it from the existing intersection of moorhead and vickers now when you look at it There's really there's really no view of the arosa building from the existing intersection However, it's just there's with you know the previous I guess there was a Residence on the house on the property many years ago as well So there was never really a view of the arosa from the intersection until that house was removed And again, there is you know some existing street trees and stuff on the on the existing site now That do block the the view of it. We have set back the ccaba building of the required street setbacks off of moorhead and vickers avenue And again establishing re establishing Properly spaced street trees along the arosa building and the cca building on moorhead and vickers to Give you that nice historic street feel again, there's Really on the site, you know with the parking and Again to provide the parking for both the structures. It's There's not a whole lot of room to Set back that building any further and obviously, you know, no one wants parking in front Of these buildings You want to maintain, you know structure the structural view So there's just not a lot of flexibility moving away from moorhead to even allow for Any you know allow for any more view of the arosa building? Well, I guess the the follow question I would have would be Wouldn't have been possible to design a two-story structure with more of a setback not for not for the The age of the occupants Um, we would end up run into building code issues for occupants as young as they are occupying a second story And if I could just while I while my mic is out here if I can help danny a little bit Because he he brought up the current view from the intersection, you know, if anyone Goes out to the site or much more conveniently in today's world is google earth street view the existing trees Essentially block the view of the building already And in addition to carla's kind of scrolling through she has she she put up on the screen an aerial photograph from 1955 Which shows that existing building on our site, which we're kind of Putting the new building right on top of that old foundation, right, you know citing it very similarly And that the sandborn map of course shows the very similar layout and uh Mr. Fox had his hand raised as is it still raised? I mean, thank you. Um, I I was going to add what rob just mentioned is Our the the front of our building is placed very within very very close to the The old the two-story house that used to be on that corner And we're also utilizing the the street sidewalk retaining wall and the existing steps that were there for that and for that original structure Thank you Any other commissioners with questions for the applicant before we turn it over to a presentation by one or more opponents to the application This is Go ahead. Go ahead, please go ahead This is Commissioner Hamilton. I just had a question about um If you have any plans to bury the overhead lines, um since you are putting trees back Um in relatively the same location. I do worry that With part of the issue of these trees being that they will be Um destructively pruned due to those lines. Um that we're Looking at approving something that would have the same exact concerns moving forward. Um That you know, we're replaced we're allowing you to take these trees out because they're going to be destructively pruned. We're going to be putting new ones in In the same or if maybe not maybe even closer to those power lines. So, um Our phone lines. I don't know if they were phone or telecommunications or what but I'm so curious if there was any um exploration of either relocating those lines to be on other poles or burying them so that the newly proposed trees won't have this same issue coming Coming up in the future Thank you, uh, Commissioner Hamilton. Uh, this is Danny Howell for real engineering. Um We again are me specifically even you know Looking through that we just again we we submitted a tier two level four site plan for these sites concurrently with our HBC review and uh, we've just actually just recently gotten comments back this right this this past friday And one of the comments we got there was again our street trees along Morehead and vickers again like you mentioned there is some overhead Lines again, I don't there's power and communication in there as well but um, there are existing overhead electric out front and we are uh, the coordination we're just having with during our site interview is sizing and Specking the correct tree So that it is not as you know as big an issue with adjacent overhead electric We have not as as a design team spoken to burying the overhead along the street the good thing about the power lines along morehead is it is the poles are directly Along the back of curb. So they are you know as far in the right away as they can possibly be Along our frontage. So it does give you a little more room For the trees to grow and spread Along morehead specifically There is some also some overhead that goes into the site to actually serve the existing rosa building with power um again We've you know, we're just getting into our site plan phase Now and some of those things will get addressed as we get further into it if if any of it will be or need to be buried But we haven't specifically made those decisions yet If that helps commissioner hampton, sorry All right, thank you Vice chair ghoulsby Uh, yes, thank you matt. Um, we've got a couple of questions here um, someone we're just follow-ups to our previous discussions, but On the site plan, are you showing the minimum amount of parking needed for these facilities? We we are We are not showing the the minimum we have We're showing The amount of parking that's required for our uses within the allowable requirements of the udo The udo well the udo allows reductions and we are actually taking advantage of Those reductions just again because there's just not enough space left on the site to To me this is I think they allow 90 reduction. I think that's correct. Carla Um, and we are taking advantage of that. I think we're currently at 93 percent Okay, so you're showing less using correct. I'm probably I just got you Gotcha. Okay. That's what I really mean. It's you know exact track and showing the minimum correct um Second, I I'll be honest. I don't do a whole lot of this type of type of work What's what's the code reference that would restrict this to be in a one-story building for kids use? I don't have that reference in front of me, but it has to do with the age of the kids and building egress, so it's um Chapter 10 of the building code deals with egress that may be where it is Right. Yeah, I'm not very familiar with daycares and elementary schools as well Okay, I do I do elementary schools just haven't run into that that being an issue But I've also had the privilege of all my elementary school being one story to begin with so that's that's why That's where it comes from Yeah, okay And lastly, I wonder if you would speak through the overall design of the elevations Particularly with reference to The design guidelines which talks about rhythm and order Kind of being akin to the buildings across along the street base What makes this easy is you there's only one other building on the street base So if you can talk to your design and how that harkens The design order of the adjacent building the The the vertically oriented windows are perhaps one of the the strongest elements as well as the horizontal million up high which that expresses a a transom They have the windows tend to be grouped As opposed to just haphazardly or randomly arranged They tend to be grouped which then creates vertical areas in the side between them Which that relates to the you know historic architecture And the the sizing and the the sizing and the type of windows used it's important to note that Of course, we're not designing a house here houses are very private houses are very personal This is this is not a house This is a space for the public. This is space for children with autism to to receive treatment so Having windows that are More generous than what you might find on a house is important and appropriate for this building And and along those lines the type of you see I think Probably three different types of window expressions on our building and that's relates to What's going on inside the types of spaces the smaller windows tend to be more intimate Private type rooms smaller rooms and then the larger more expensive windows are are larger higher activity rooms behind there Hope that helps it does I think what i'm struggling with just in in my view of it is looking at the order of The historic building and and other buildings. I think i'm in the district And I can see a particular order in rhythm in this building and I know you've got Some windows that are kind of grouped together and in order to long One of the side besides thinking about your west elevation there But the rest of it kind of looks like it's It's programmatically placed right like you mentioned you got some rooms that are that are larger activity rooms so you have bigger pieces of glass there That I think that that Kind of doesn't help you in in keeping a rhythm in order that park into the district So to my eye, I mean The rhythm in order of windows and doors Um appears to be more randomized because it it is based off of programmatic pieces interior of the building Chairman mr. Fox and then uh chair, uh then commissioner to barry All right Thank you. Um commuter goals be um We we actually did yes, you're correct and we did mention that the window placement Is programmatic at the same time We did pay attention to the front facade and The west west street elevation those two On purpose. We tried to group windows together in pairs Um to give smaller openings so that it does relate to Structures that would be on the street the larger expanses of glass um will be But there in one particular case on the west elevation on the right hand corner Is the largest expression there Which would you know, there are trees concealing some of those used Um, but those are primarily internal to the site We tried to group that and and to leave the I guess the more intimate spaces With smaller window openings on the exterior. So we tried to arrange columns and those windows on the north elevation To be again more consistent. Um with the type of building. This is relative to what's what's what's neighboring Man, I may not answer you 100 the way you'd like me to but I just that was kind of our rationale. Sorry Yeah, no, it does it does help me understand a little bit. I mean, I'm sure it will come up in our discussion after the questioning Commissioner de berry So I don't have a question just to comment. Um, is this the appropriate time? Uh, we still haven't opened. Uh, we're still in the public hearing. So let's wait until we go to commissioner discussion Any other questions from the commissioners to the applicant? Um, before we give any opposition an opportunity to speak This is commissioner hamilton. I have one one more question. I'm sorry The water line that you're adding um that is going underneath the existing um Stone I think it's called a wall on the plan. So it's really more of a curb But I'll just plan to remove the entire piece of curving and then place it back or were you planning to cut through that curving to add that water connection This is uh, dany howell with uh, real engineering again uh, thank you commissioner hamilton, uh, again, we submitted, uh our concurrently with this our Level four, uh, tier two site plans and one of the comments we received from staff is the degradation of the wall along vickers uh, it is Again, it's it's failing in some places already. So they they asked us for more information on what our plan was to Remedy that situation and where we're showing that water line connection for the ccava building is one of those places where the wall is uh Well, it's failing again. It's a very small short wall. So we're going to coordinate with uh staff on the proper way because again, we want to try to maintain that facade A street facade as much as possible So again, this is a the section we're showing it is a is one of the section that is a Failing so again if you've been out to the site or again as rob mentioned street view Uh shows it very well. You can see some of the issues where You know, obviously it's just a much older wall Some improvements will need to be made. We're going to try to coordinate with staff on the best way to make those improvements because we want to keep the integrity of the In the intent of the wall as well That mr. Howe Any further questions for the applicant? If not, is there anyone present who would like to speak against the case? And is that miss martin? Yes Okay, the floor is yours. Thank you Um, my name is jennifer martin. I'm a owner and resident of 808 parker street in moorhead hill I've lived here since 2014 Um, i'm also a professional architectural historian. I've been working in the state of north carolina for approximately 28 years um Finally i'm a member of the board of directors of preservation durham Our local non-profit historic preservation organization um at our meeting last thursday we reviewed this project reviewed the coa and um Came out of that review opposed to the application um First of all, I want to say um That I believe it is crucially important that the careful sensitive and thoughtful design of any new construction In a historic district is of the utmost importance because new buildings must harmonize In character with neighborhoods and also be made compatible with existing historic structures Um, I will go through this very quickly. I know you all uh, don't want to go past noon nor do I I just want to highlight some of the issues that I have with the application and the project first of all placement um, the review criteria say that local That we should locate new primary Structures to be compatible with the predominant placement of similar structures in the block face Uh, this proposal does not does not achieve that whatsoever um It is well forward of its next door neighbor, which is a contributing building in the district There was mention of The building that used to stand on uh, the subject parcel That building has been gone since the 1960s. I believe And nowhere in the guidelines Does it mention that we should pattern anything after something that used to stand? so that I believe that point is uh Not valid There was also mention of the The new building blocking the view shed to the Its next door neighbor a contributing colonial revival style house From vickers the view towards that house the brick house um, is clear and It is visible from the intersection of vickers and this new building in my opinion will block The view to that house And I believe in the staff report uh staff concurs with that Vickers for moorhead hill is a extremely important corridor It is the corridor. Of course, it's one way to laying one way street. It is a corridor That leads from downtown and north Durham into our historic district and um So it's a it's an important street. It's an important, uh, vista And it should not uh be overlooked Moving on to scale height and massing um The criteria tell us that new structure should be compatible in scale height proportion and massing with contributing structures in the block face and within the district I believe the proposed one-story building which is 65 feet wide and 90 feet 93 feet deep Uh, essentially a rectangle. Um, its massing is not compatible with what is mostly Almost all a residential historic district um Next design elements, um, you all just mentioned the rhythm of doors and windows And how for new structures that should be compatible with contributing structures in the district um The proposed design, um Introduces a totally asymmetrical street facing elevation lacking any discernible rhythm whatsoever The placement of doors and windows does not even uh really appear compatible with um the asymmetrically masked Uh residences in our neighborhood and I feel it's an inappropriate treatment for uh street facing elevations Next materials, um There uh is in the guidelines of course Mention of modern equivalents being appropriate, which I agree with of course that they have the same outward appearance Uh as original materials failed on contributing Uh structures The materials uh proposed for this building include um Cementitious uh board and baton material in two colors of brick Um To my knowledge there is one uh single dwelling in moorhead hill with board and baton siding It's not a common uh treatment. We uh Predominantly we have weatherboard novelty german siding some brick Um, but board and baton is not a common treatment The two colors of brick on one building is uh quite problematic. There is no There's no precedence for that in moorhead hill um Lastly uh the site work Um that has been mentioned also and we heard from uh the tree expert I am not a tree expert, but I would hope that would get further consideration Not only uh in relation to the subject parcel, but also the again that gateway down vickers Which is so important Um, and I I would like to see that maintained as much as possible Um Can I continue Of course you are miss marten. Okay. Thank you. Um In conclusion, I just like to say that a new a new building in moorhead hill should contribute to the character of our neighborhood by respecting location design materials and character defining features in our district And importantly new construction should be of similar size and scale of surrounding buildings Footprint and foundations of new buildings should be similar to the ones surrounding it And the envelope of the building should match the existing buildings in height and bulk Finally new structures should be clad and visually and physically similar materials to those in the district That's it Thank you miss martin. Do any of the commissioners have Questions from miss martin I don't have a this is commissioner johnson. I don't have a question, but I have a statement to make For the record I am the executive director of preservation Durham and miss martin mentioned that she serves on the board um I just want to state for the record that I did not participate in any board discussions about the state And um and that I am able to make an impartial decision About this case Thank you If there are no other questions from miss martin, I would recommend that we Well, actually I need to give the applicant a chance to rebut before we close the public And I will therefore ask the applicant to designate somebody to speak in rebuttal Thank you Thank you, mr. Beshard. Um, I think without knowing There was there was a lot from miss martin there and I appreciate I appreciate all of that It's hard to know exactly what to respond to um without knowing exactly what's important. What's most important to her or Certainly, what's most important to the staff? In that list of concerns. So I think Unless re you have another suggestion about how to Respond here. I think I'm going to Suggest that we defer to the staff's analysis and the any questions that the commission might might have yet Okay well in that case um Reserving the right to reopen the public hearing and invent any commissioners have any further questions for either The applicant or from miss martin. I am going to close The public hearing for the time being so that we can engage in discussion amongst commissioners And I think it is only fair that I asked mr. Uh, excuse me commissioner to vary to go first as he was Interested in making a comment a few moments ago To add floors yours um, thanks, so When new construction comes up in historic districts, I like to drive around the district and and so some of jennifer's comments I was I thought I'd seen some of these elements Even on vickers avenue. There's a house um a couple blocks down on the same side of the street that has um a very interesting window arrangement even with A window that rounds the corner at the end of the house. It's a contemporary. It may even be a hit roof house um And then right next to it. I think is it is maybe the one board and batten house that she referred to so I found some some elements around Fairly close to this building that seemed to echo some of the residential stuff that's going on in the neighborhood not not contributing perhaps but um I I just thought there was there was a real um Real reason to consider this because there were some things that that seemed fairly similar and um It appeared to fulfill a lot of the of the things that we need to think about and as far as the placement of the building I too had a very Similar reaction when I first looked at it But I think I'd rather have it a little closer to the street in the parking in the back Then have a big parking lot on the corner of vickers and moorhead and that seems to be the only other answer to that so i'm not sure um You know how I feel about that but those were just things When I drove around that those were my conclusions that's it commissioner de berry do you have any um Comments at all about the concerns we've heard about massing about the rhythm of windows Tree issues anything along those lines? Well the window issue I think as I said, there's a house a little bit further down vickers that has Not identical Window placement, but it it is sort of irregular and then it has that window that goes around the the front corner of the house which is um It's probably the only one in the neighborhood like that, but it is there um You know we had we had approved most of these trees to be removed In in 2019 and they looked like they've just deteriorated further um I'd love to have all the power lines buried too, but I don't think that's um financially feasible um It is a little larger. Um, but then there's you know the the duke um Facility on the on one side that is enormous and then there's that condo we just approved across vickers, which is enormous and of course gravestone is big um It does not conform to the size of some of the houses further down vickers, but um, it's certainly no bigger than A lot of the things around it You know, I I struggled with this early because I thought it did seem a little out of place But my conclusion is after looking at sort of the totality within and Three or four blocks up and down vickers especially it I I think it it works Thank you commissioner de berry We'd like to speak next But chair Richard and equals me. Um I do struggle with the the elevations a bit, but uh, I'm not as familiar with the houses or the house that um Commissioner de berry mentioned, but probably probably could be satisfied with some more images of contemporary or not contemporary, but um You know other houses in the district that that showed us or for other buildings I do appreciate the the comment to remind us about other larger structures in the district it's it's kind of a Sign of the time certainly that that we're going to have larger buildings coming into this area on undeveloped properties like this so how to Manage that but I do appreciate the reminder about the other projects that we've we have approved already that Some have more contemporary elements to them Like this Thank you vice chair ghoulsby This is I think you know the interesting thing about moorhead is that it is such a diverse district like, um I'm sure in various mentioned like the the range of architectural styles in that district is Probably some of the most diverse in any district in our purview of review um You know, I do struggle looking at you know, I really do feel like that western facade feels good Um, even though it's not, you know completely consistent. There is still a little bit more rhythm that you see um elsewhere. I have to admit like the northern elevation with that Plan left part of it where it's um such a large expanse of a blank wall before you get to any Windows is difficult for me, but um, I really am One of the things that's really consistent throughout this district for you know, the vast majority of Properties is that they do have that small wall right behind the sidewalk and so I just want to make sure That moving forward that wall gets repaired and maintained Um, which is why I had asked about that water line um And then with the trees um I'm concerned that we're gonna have replacement trees that are small Enough to fit under power lines. So I would just like to also request that larger trees be put into parking lot to ensure that the canopy of this district Is allowed to grow back as these changes are made. Um, because you know the mole varies and the red repairs are pretty small trees anyways, but we are losing some fairly large um species of trees and so knowing that like Those trees will be replacing time Maybe not at the street because of the power line issues and I understand, you know, they can't all be buried even though that would be my preference, of course um Knowing that, you know, there would be other large trees Species replaced on site at least in the you know rear yard um, or along moorhead where they have a little bit more room since the power lines are and Truly in the right of way entirely Um, would be my Concerns Thank you commissioner hamilton commissioners waders and johnson um commissioner johnson I think as deal struggle struggle with the design of the building I I wish that As folks are submitting applications for new construction construction that they Really kind of talk about the design elements and how they are not not mimicking or replicating but Kind of fitting this new construction designed with the district somehow and If it still feels out of place for me now, I wasn't like the very uh commission of the very and I didn't Drive through looking for the examples and making sure that it it it does fit. I don't have that in front of me um And I think that's why it's always good to kind of to make your case to be sure that you know That the language that design language that you speak you can show that it exists within the district Yeah I'm still struggling with accepting the design It feels out of place Um, can I I have to leave I have a meeting at noon with shippo. I'm gonna have to leave the meeting sorry Thank you for your participation miss martin for letting us know. Thank you for letting me speak I believe commissioner waders um is going to be leaving as well before we have a vote unfortunately. Um I guess I will speak my mind as well. Um I cannot shake the feeling that this is um absolutely the right project in the wrong location. Um and the the programmatic aspect of uh, what Is in front of us is Completely laudable and a service that is uh badly needed in the city um, I'm I'm struggling with the placement of the building primarily and The criteria that We are not to permit new construction that's going to obstruct Contributing structure. Um the architectural significance of a contributing structure. And so that that continues to be my concern about this project Someone remind me and I can't believe I'm forgetting this And it might not even be relevant. Although for some reason in my mind, it's important When you are driving on moorhead is moorhead one way in this Building would be on the left. It's a two-way street. Okay Thank you miss and that I appreciate that So that's sort of where I am. Um, I still have concerns that We would be obscuring A view of a significant property that is uh contributing to the district in service of new construction And although the programming is laudable Um, I'm trying to tell myself that's that's not What this board exists to protect. Um, it's it's the historic character of the neighborhood and so I'm inclined to vote against Mr. Medoff Commissioner bichard or chair bichard. Thank you for for that comment One design amendment Or a plan b that that we as a team have discussed That I'd like to know from from you if it might address some of your sight line concern Is um and and carl if you could potentially pull up the site plan for us that would be helpful um The parking in the back right up along the southern part of the building um where you see space seven You know those spaces are aligned north to south um We have discussed potentially gaining a couple of feet of additional site visibility by By reorienting those spaces to be east to west and parallel up against the building there Um, we we would lose a few spaces But I think as we shared with Vice chair ghoulsby were at, uh, you know 93 and um, you know, there might be a space or two that we could afford to lose if we Reoriented those spaces to be east to west and uh, and again that would allow us a couple additional feet Of potentially moving the building to the south off of the corner Is that something that would help address the concern you raised? I appreciate the perspective. Um, mr. Medoff Looks like vice chair ghoulsby might want to provide a response to that Uh, this is really for the commission. Um, just to start to have the dialogue of um potentially continuing this case one um So that the design team can take these comments and and address them whether it's Reorienting some of the parking um To be able to ship the the building uh plan south um, or if it's looking at the elevations and um The district and bringing back some evidence of where the these items occur in the district um Also, you know taking that time to uh Look at site lighting in the district and how that's being handled I think could be benefit to the to the committee. Um, or this commission's using and I lost my thought there, but uh, just just start to Talk about uh continuing this case And bringing back some more more items Mr. Johnson What was the question? Oh, I thought you were coming back online because you wanted to comment to what uh, vice chair ghoulsby was suggesting This was a potential continuance uh to allow the applicant to address some of the issues we talked about um Sighting of the property potential modification of parking spaces that might gain a few feet in the front Materials rhythm of windows Some of the issues that we've discussed during the course of this hearing And I'll speak for myself. I I certainly we have no problem with the continuance to Provide the applicant some additional time to to go through those issues Of course, it's the applicant's decision and if they want to have a A vote today. We can certainly have a vote today Based on the existing application And I just want to point out one last thing. I know I'm probably the only one that has an issue with this But the design of the lighting fixtures Um, I took the time to go through open dorm on moorhead and the surrounding areas And I found a couple of examples of old older light fixtures So they did exist A specific design didn't exist. I just wanted to throw that out there Thank you Uh, yes, it's the anticles. We I mentioned that as well just to be able to have that time to do a little research Um, both both ends and to address those comments from gushard. Um, you know, I would uh If I may um ask, you know, in your opinion today does the potential of bringing that building south Um, you know answer the main question you were having or is that something that you feel you would need more time to think about to weigh in on My concern about massing might not be, um abetted by that issue I might still have concerns about it when you come back I'm just being candid But there have been a variety of other issues that have been raised including issues that um, Ms. Johnson has raised about uh site lighting that I think could be addressed and even if my vote can't be gained um I think there's potential, uh Other votes that could be Um, that being said, I've you know, we have five commissioners here. We have a quorum um There may be sufficient support for the proposals that currently exists and if if The applicant wants to move forward with a vote. I don't want to hold that up if the applicant prefers um To revisit some of the issues we've addressed um, we can um Move to continue and hold this open for um a month Carl Rosemarke planning department We could also do a straw poll so that the applicant knows where each commissioner stands I would be happy to conduct a straw poll. Um And I'll start with uh commissioner johnson I'm not inclined to vote in favor of the application Vice chair ghoulsby I I would like to see some Some more information to bring me some comfort to the elevations of Images from the district. Um I am interested in and now the opportunity to be able to shift this building plans out So in in my heart, I would say same day right now commissioner de berry Um I can support this but I also can support, you know, if they're amenable to a Um Coming back with a few tweaks if that would make the rest of our Our group feel a little better. Um, and I I think there are some compelling reasons to To do that and I I think all of us need to drive around that neighborhood particularly up and down vickers and look at other The 1200 block in particular There's several I think houses down there that are share some of the design Elements of this building And commissioner hamilton Um, this is commissioner hamilton. Yes, um, I think As proposed today, I would need um To look at the elevations again, and you know, maybe it is a matter of going And looking at vickers again myself, you know, obviously, I know it's a great diverse district. Um, And then also just having Those commitments related to the curbing at the back of sidewalk being Maintained and replaced and um Retained or you know, however it needs to happen based on their conversations with engineering or Elec works or whoever and The city has been doing but making sure that that that wall doesn't go away and then also The trees being replaced for the ones in the rear. I would need to you know, have some clarity on the Cc's of trees And then yeah, I mean, I don't I don't have the same concerns with it being closer to the street I'm you know, the further back it could be the better in my opinion, but um minor much more related Rhythm of Really that north elevation more than anything else Thank you all very much. Um For that input I think I know where this is headed at least for today, but let me ask karla before we move forward Karla, how soon would you need to? receive supplemental materials for us to be able to put this on for hearing again in october So we made the policy that we would need to continue two months rather than one I actually submitted all my staff reports last week for october. So minimum of two Applicant might want to consider three to really comb through But it's it's up to them how long they need. Um, so my for my turnaround, um, I would need for the November meeting I would need materials At least four weeks before so, um by the end of september So I will reopen the public hearing so that I can ask the applicant Would you prefer to have a continuance through or to the november meeting or to the december meeting based on that timeline? Um, mr. Chairman, my preference is is certainly november. Uh, I have not had a chance to coordinate with uh with my team with paul and rob and danny If if we say november if we ask for a continuance now to november And then within a short period of time need to ask for december instead. Is is there a process to do so? Carly you able to do that as a matter of staff or is that something to have to be loaded on again? Might be a question for christa as well. Um, christa, what would you say about that? Doesn't seem like it should be an issue, but Sorry, I've been on a call. Um, can you repeat the question? Oh, the question was um, if if we continue this case to november And in the applicant decides they need a little more time. Is there any problem continue? I think what we do is we just put it on the docket for november And then we would just say the state that the applicant needed to continue again Um to december they needed more time Yeah, I think I think that's fine. The commission could vote on it again. Um, And you know the only concern ever is sort of the the shot clock in terms of um timing but since there's Kind of revisions coming more information needed I'm not sure that there's an issue here, but that would certainly be something that we need to consider Well, I'm going to go ahead and make a motion here shortly It's going to be a very brief motion to continue And just to make sure that we do You know the applicant are solid and Making sure they understand what it is that We're concerned about It's primarily from what I have been hearing and taking notes on rhythm massing slash parking um curbing in the back sidewalk tree replacement clarity um Am I missing anything commissioners just so we make sure that the applicant knows what it is that we're hoping that they'll address Uh chair per charge. Did you mention site lighting in the district? Thank you very much site lighting. Absolutely I think that's the list And with that I'll go ahead and make a motion to continue case coa 2 1 0 0 0 5 3 uh 6 25 moorhead avenue 1005 victor's avenue new construction and site work to the november 2021 Meeting of this commission second and equals we Okay to the shard Yes Commissioner de berry yes Vice chair bullsby yes Commissioner hamilton Commissioner johnson yes Commissioner wayers has left haven't she okay motion passes five zero I want to thank everybody for your patience. Um, this was a delirious process lots of questions were asked Y'all have been very candid in providing responses We look forward to the additional information you'll provide and We look forward to seeing you again here in the next couple months Thank you all Chair brishard, could we take a five minute recess? Yes. Uh, let's uh reconvene If we can hear no later than 12 25. I realize we're running late, but I think we knew that coming into today See y'all shortly Chair as everyone gathers this is chris payerson from planning. Um, all the registered Individuals for these last two cases are in attendance What's the roster? um president montague mark mccore and david parker Thank you If commissioners can come uh back online or let me know that you're here Here comes commissioner de berry vice chair bullsby's back commissioner johnson's back Commissioner hamilton is back. All right. Um and carla's back So, uh, we'll now hear case coa zero zero zero six zero 23 26 englewood avenue demolition of primary structure Before we hear from staff. Is there any one of our commissioners who may have a conflict of interest in hearing this case? If not, then let us proceed with the swearing in of anyone who plans to speak for or against this case clerk alia Do you swear or affirm that testimony you're about to give in the public care and proceeding for today's case? Is the truth by your own knowledge or by information and belief? Let's start with mr. McClure Mr. McClure, I believe you're on mute Well, then then so is my husband um, hello Uh, mark and I have both signed papers Uh, I see there's a you're going on mute again Got it. Thank you. I'm sorry. Yeah Hello I'm sherry mcclure elliott and this is mark mcclure my husband We would both like to be under oath and to to speak Mr. McClure, do you agree to be under oath as well? Yes. Yes, sir. Okay, mr. Montague I agree. Yes, mr. Parker If we could have you verbally assent or uh, except the oath Wonderful, um, each of you agree to this hearing be conducted conducted by the Remote software here today. Uh, mr. Mrs. McClure Yes, yes Mr. Montague Do and mr. Parker. Yes. Thank you so much Carla I think we're prepared for the staff report. I'm carl Rosenberg planning department. This is case coa 21 000 60 It's 23 26 Englewood avenue demolition of a primary structure. It's an amendment of a previous coa It's the applicant is riverbank development represented by david parker Owned also by riverbank development located on the north side of Englewood avenue between alabama and virginia avenue It's owned residential urban five and it's a non contributing structure in In the watselondale historic district So the applicant is to proposing to demolish this Non contributing primary structure And what makes this application? Substantially different from the previous is the incorporation of a lot of materials and design elements into A new structure on the site specifically an Accessory structure to be built which is in a separate application So i'd like to introduce the staff report into the record and invite the applicants to present their case The floor is yours mr. McClark. Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry Um, good afternoon. My name is david parker. I'm current owner of 23 26 Englewood avenue A general contractor that will be performing the material salvage and construction on the site I'm also a watselondale resident an adjacent neighbor on the subject property When we began this journey near nearly a year ago We knew that our goals of transforming 23 26 Englewood avenue into an environmentally healthy thoughtfully designed Modestly sized home We're going to be a challenge Little did we know the obstacles we would encounter related to fracture supply change often increasing the material costs labor shortage And a demolition delay imposed on youth first Each of these posing a threat to our values based goals for this project We're back before you today to ask that coa 2 1 0 0 0 3 6 Be amended to allow immediate commencement of demolition and material salvage efforts Of the non contributing primary structure at 23 26 Englewood avenue Since that June meeting and I would listen For this commission as we dissected transcripts from our past hearings and sought better understanding of your preservation objectives As one governing body and individual perspectives within To city staff As we've sought clarity and interpretation of the hbc guidelines Stated priorities within the watselondale district and fundamental distinctions like contributing versus non contributing For our clients mark and sherry have been incredibly encouraging and accommodating through all this Today's proposal is only possible because of their continued investment of time energy And resources in a home and community that they are passionate about To neighbors seeking feedback on how they are currently experiencing the property How they might experience the salvage demolition and construction and ultimately their feelings about the environment We're seeking to create and to members of preservation Durham and conversations that we ultimately initiated Per the stated intent of the 365 day delay on June 1st We've invested in environmental experts to better understand health risks and current structure and potential proposed materials And engineers to confirm structural integrity of salvage salvage materials used in a different context And design experts to create To creatively steward existing resources in a manner that might honor this property and all those We've listened to throughout this journey In this coa Excuse me, and I invested in the coa Apprevation process and we're excited about the studio design and collaborative compromise that will make it possible While holding tight to our convictions related to environmental health modest scale and thoughtful design We've been open-minded about how we might honor this property for what's hillandale district Restored preservation commission in dirham's history Today's application proposes immediate salvage or portions of the home The front storm door concrete driveway brick veneer the structural framing members Of those that have been identified as most viable or floor framing within the middle of the hall Thus requiring invasive demolition for salvage All salvage materials Will require some form of restoration and or remediation prior to reuse Such as removing mortar from individual bricks and denailing cleaning and encapsulating all subsides each piece of lumber The proposed studio is intentionally reminiscent of the existing home's front elevation And is designed to be constructed almost entirely of salvage materials Viability of salvage materials is time-sensitive And reuse may not be possible the longer we wait Our mold experts and structural engineer have expressed concerns with further deterioration of the structure materials within additionally Repurpose of existing materials and construction of this studio Will not be possible due to costs Encouraged by virtue of the delay should the 365 day delay stand Today I'll submit Then an additional nine month delay and revitalization of this site Is preserving a nuisance and a missed opportunity for creative reinvention stewardship and legacy Respect and appreciate the efforts of this commission. I really appreciate you allowing me back before you today I hope that you'll find this application for the other approval Thank you so much. Thank you for uh investing time now into the afternoon I welcome any questions Before the commissioners directing any questions to mr. Parker Uh does uh mr. Montague or mr. Mrs. McClure uh care to speak in support of the application Yes The floor is yours Thank you My name is sherry mcclure elliott and my husband dr. Mark mcclure And I are excited and truly honored to have the opportunity to build our new home on the property at 2326 Englewood Um, we want to thank the hpc for approving our house plans at the july meeting We understand however at the june meeting We were surprised that the hpc delayed the demolition of the existing structure at that location for the 365 days that david mentioned Especially since it's a non-contributory structure to the watson-londale district and it's been abandoned and neglected for over seven years We understand that the maximum delay was imposed to give riverbank a chance to meet with preservation derm to explore how to salvage the existing structure Therefore david parker arranged a meeting with mr. Miller in late june to review the situation Mark and I attended that meeting After discussing the pros and cons of salvaging the home David again concluded that restoration was not a viable option and we agreed with his assessment Nevertheless, we planned a salvage concrete from the driveway brick from the foundation to incorporate a crevice garden We also proposed using existing shuttered front door and treated lumber from the existing structure to the backyard studio In view of the above and since we've already Served 90 days of the delay. We would greatly appreciate if the committee would lift the remaining restriction Thank you so much Mr. McClure I have nothing more to add. Thank you. Thank you and mr. Montague Thank you. Um, I'd like to add that uh, this project Looks at the landscape and the natural energies storm water Air flow and vegetation and is seeking to not only maintain the front yard As a gift to the neighborhood As so many front yards in that neighborhood are but also takes into account the fact that as durham develops the behavior of storm water changes the the the ambient air temperature that even the wind flow changes and the The crevice garden sherry mentioned a moment ago Is really just essentially Um A garden that's being used to return the site to historic storm water movement levels And takes into account that uh, should change over time should development encourage more storm water flow Or more aggressive storm water flow that the site is Going to be designed to to manage that in fact to leave neighbors downhill In a better more safe condition than where they are right now Thank you. Thank you I will now open it up for questioning by commissioners of the african Andy pulls me Thank you for your presentation. A couple questions here Mr. Mr Montague, excuse me Could you clarify? Are you are you a neighbor or part of the design team? I'm a landscape architect here in durham and i'm on the design team Okay, thank you. Thank you. Um and david No, no one from preservation durham Or could you kind of lend into your conversation with preservation durham a little bit more and how this was After you heard their concerns how this was uh compromised Yes, sir. Um So, uh, yeah, I Well, uh I didn't I I know folks at preservation durham. Um, I Would consider mr. Miller friend also a neighbor. Um, I did not hear from him At any point in advance of the gene first meeting, which was a bit surprising quite honestly um and then uh, obviously spoke out in opposition to you first and There was a lot of surprise that came out of that meeting And The thing that that and looking back at it And looking at the official ruling that seemed to be pretty Straightforward was the fact that the the 365 delay was approved with the intent of preservation durham inner city staff to To to really support and leave it the preservation efforts. Um, so I waited I think it was three to four weeks actually Uh, we heard nothing and finally emailed mr. Miller to introduce mark and sherry and arranged for a conversation in the back Driver was set in the back of 2326 and had a great conversation. I think, um Again our hopefully our body of work speaks to our Respect for these neighborhoods and for preservation Our analysis and that of structural engineer and mold experts determined that it was not viable to keep this house in its Uh current form. So that's how we got to the demolition um from from the outset, so I feel like Where that conversation with preservation durham and mr. Even mr. Miller in particular ended up was kind of a agree to disagree as far as can the house be salvaged um, but I think as far as um You know preservation macro, I feel like we're a very much alive in our beliefs and desire to preserve so Sorry, that was kind of long-winded, but I wanted to give a little bit of backstory as to how We got there thank you. Um commit commissioner jocelyn, uh I just want to state for the record that I am the executive director of preservation durham I was not involved in conversations with the applicant regarding this property after the uh before the ruling and after But I know um our standard uh when it comes to these situations Is that we contact folks In the community who are known rehabbers Who look for properties in dire need? uh a rehabilitation or Whether it's because they they are sliding for demolition or of the sort now i'm not um, I don't remember or may not be up to date on um the success of finding said We have person to at least take a look at the property and maybe they've driven by But if you have not been contacted it could have been what the delay was about Contacted someone who might be interested um and um It had I known that you hadn't been contacted. Um, I could have at least Have gotten clarity from my particular board members involved in the situation. Um, but um, but for that to work either um One of the things we would want to do is ask you to consider Selling it to someone who is able or who have taken a look at the property and thinks that they could Put the investment in but that will mean that the owner will be will be willing to um to to um um sell the property um to someone else and and and Move on to a different project It's one of the avenues but for this particular property that probably would have been what mr. Miller was looking into Yeah, maybe so Oh Go ahead just park um Mr. Johnson, I certainly I really appreciate you adding context to that and um appreciate all of preservation during efforts. I think a lot of what uh We discussed with mr. Miller was kind of a fracture within the process of as far as timing The fact that preservation doesn't get awareness of these projects until they're submitted and so much time Effort and monies that have been allocated at that point to it. Um, So I think there's some systemic things that can be addressed to avoid conflict among Different parties and and neighbors as it relates to these preservation efforts and um, You know when I when a house that has been taken for seven years um Comes up in something like this it to me it seems like It should be no real surprise that uh, you know a substantial Redevelopment is now being proposed furthermore the prop we purchased the property At the end of the last year, which means that once the property changes hands, then it's public record So just like you get mailers from Folks wanting to offer additional mortgage insurance or whatever else I would I would imagine that that would be public information that We're creating the right system or process organizations that are Um, like reservations around that are that are passionate about protecting endangered properties Would have access and could proactively reach out Excuse me. Um, I just want to be clear. Are you stating that as a as an organization that when Transaction is made that That that we We should I just I just want to be clear I wasn't clear. I'm sorry. I was just suggesting that Obviously, there there's an inventory There's historic districts. There are addresses within that there's a clear inventory that notes properties that fall under these guidelines and so I would Imagine that a There could be a database that is created that throws a flag up win a Property within a district changes hands and if it were identified as a At-risk property one that has been vacant for seven years, then there could be an opportunity there for proactive engagement On that so again, I'm not at all I'm only seeking to offer suggestions that might better the The interaction between These organizations and the HBC and private foreign Hello Rosenberg planning department. Um, thank you David for that feedback Did Mr. chairman, um, sorry to commissioner ghouls. We feel like his answer was Like an answer was given for his question regarding the specific meeting you've had Um and how to compromise moving forward Looking yeah, it it is a little hard without getting into into hearsays I think David's given about as much as much as he can from from his side Uh, it is unfortunate that, um If there was still a concern from preservation Durham, mr. Miller could have been here But so so far i'm satisfied with my question And yeah, the commissioners have questions for the applicant This is commissioner Hamilton. I just want to verify so the um Brick will be salvaged for the new accessory structure and I know it's kind of like that That's 22 because we have two different cases to review but, um The intent is for the brick to be salvaged for a new Accessory structure and the concrete will be salvaged for the harvest garden, correct? Is that the intent with this demolition? And we'll review those designs later That's correct. So that accessory structure would be so almost entirely of salvage material and it is designed specifically um to reflect the current elevation And then just wanted to ask that question from commissioner Hamilton at what percentage I guess of the existing Obviously the new structure appears to be smaller in the next hearing. Um, so I guess just like you have a round about understanding of how much material of the salvage 50 percent 25 percent of the existing structure of the existing structure were probably looking somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 percent that would be repurposed in the new structure because again the scale of it is quite smaller. Um Certainly when we're doing salvage efforts, uh 100 percent is is not Possible there's going to be collateral damage. There's certainly a ton of brick right now that is cracked and Wouldn't be able to be repurposed regardless of how it comes off of the house. Um We've also engaged neighbors and other folks within the community to Make use of Materials that could can be reusing other ways. We've contacted local artists. So there's other things that again just from a HPC aside and and Reservation and legacy and those things that are we're trying to retain within the district. We just want to be good schools of What's there where possible? Hopefully that answers your question about percentage Thank you Chair Bouchard with a question for uh, mr. McClure and mismaclure elliot. Um, could you speak to The financial hardships if any you are facing right now, uh, and would continue to face if the commission were to elect to Leave the remaining nine months Delay in place Well as mr. Uh parker mentioned the cost of materials of course is something that that's an unknown But they're you know other than that there wouldn't be a severe hardship We we have um We are renting in a property on clarendon street and um We have we have things in storage and whatnot. We're we're here. We're safe Thank you Um, it does speak Just something towards the financial aspect Is that mr. Parker again? Yes, sir. Please um Well, I wanted to just provide a little bit of context to you talk about hardship and I think getting some definition on that has been has been challenging and I think fortunately for uh For most of us in our in our hopeful society hardship is probably a stretch uh as it relates to the world standard, but um We and hopefully this addresses some of mr. Johnson's um Comments about someone else potentially redeveloping this or buying it So as with every restoration of construction endeavor financial viability is a major consideration from the outset as i'm sure we all know unfortunately Many in our industry mitigate this by diluting the design and easing through materials Or compromising workmanship, but what I would submit is maybe even more threatening to the integrity of historic districts Is the temptation to increase the overall size of the structures to create economies of scale and increase marry so The challenge with rep restoring Let's say 1200 square foot house. I'm building a new one is that economies of scale really ramp up when you get 2000 3000 4000 feet and I think that's You've got those pressures from a financial perspective Better than I think adversely affecting the overall integrity of these historic districts. So to make the the assertion of the assumption that someone would See this house and say I love it just as it is and I'm going to invest The $400,000 that it takes to restore it as it sits I think is Unrealistic and so then you're saying okay They're going in order to make the numbers work. There's pressures to just make the thing bigger and bigger and bigger And what we really really sought to do here is keep scale down I I don't know of anyone else that is submitted new construction application that is not under the small the new small house guidelines that is 2025 feet that's Really an achievement. I feel like and so at some point while hardship might not mean that one is Homeless of destitute it doesn't mean that it's not a viable project and thus the house sits vacant Mr. Parker, go ahead. Mr. Commissioner Johnson Yes, this commissioner Johnson. I have a question for the property owner or mr. Parker um You know great statement But when when it comes to and I know that we don't have a set um definition or we haven't provided proper instructions for applicants to make this economic hardship claim But I would think that Is one of the things that we could do is kind of look at it look at it logically look at it Okay, your developer. Do you know if you were to rehab this house? um What's like what will be the cost and has anyone like done that and submitted that hardcore numbers And then look at what's the value of the property? Um, I just need I I need to see numbers um making statements without evidence Uh without something to support it. It's like asking Uh for it's like any applicant applicant coming to us asking to make changes to their property Without providing any information or any documentation whereby we can Uh Kind of look at I know that we don't have And I don't know if crista has figured this out yet or found some examples elsewhere But I would think that asking people to submit numbers um Taking a look at the market value of the property and then taking a look at how much Do you have an understanding of the hardship? How much is it going to really cost if we were to rehab and keep this property here? um That would help me like numbers numbers would help me um, and I would think that that would be something that that could be fairly easily done As an estimate that's something to submit as part of the application Other than that, I don't understand having the conversation about economic hardship when we don't have any numbers to review I think that's a great point miss johnson and I Would certainly welcome that data to be Requested or part of the analysis on these applications because I completely agree with you. I think the hardship the whole language of hardship is is very hard to contextualize and and um Make an argument for one way or another but I think uh financial analysis of option a versus option b and understanding like The viability of that um is is a wise thing to um Bring up and request um to answer your question have done analysis on it. I have I early on Certainly we always do various scenario analysis on it on projects like this not counting every stick and brick as we like to say um simply because it was clear quite early Given what was required to restore the home your basic You're basically rebuilding it from the inside out And so I don't know I I hope that answers Your question there, but I really appreciate that perspective I think it would be a valuable Yeah, I just yeah, I just need numbers or else it's like I can't I can't make a decision based on that Any additional questions for the applicant? Okay, hearing none. Is there anyone else present who would like to speak for or against this case? Hearing from nobody else. I'm going to close Public hearing uh reserving the right to reopen it in case we need to ask any additional questions of the applicant And open things up for discussion among the commissioners Who would like to get us started? Oh, go ahead. Go ahead April. Please Um, I'm just you know, I made my statement about the economic hardship. I think we just need to At a basic level require people to give us an idea of what the value of the property is And how much would it cost if to preserve the property? And I think that's something that can be easily done getting quotes, you know, you know pretty easily done My second my second point is I think last time I I remember last time I think I made a comment that this type of house um is is actually um, this is the Watsonville neighborhood correct? Yes. Um is Uh, you see this a lot in this neighborhood. Um And though it's not contributing it's starting to it's it's part now part of the neighborhood character of the neighborhood And I don't know. I have a hard time um This non contributing thing I'm still struggling with that. I struggle with it because I think that um these posts These 1940s 1950s houses are now part of the fabric of these neighborhoods and they they tell a continuous continual story And and if I can remember correctly and maybe commissioners can help me to remember Was there enough evidence the first go around that the mold was Irreparable That the mold issue was um Too dire to clean if it's I I don't remember Carl Rosenberg planning department. Um, that was not presented in the first hearing but only because If it just wasn't brought up And they wanted a second opportunity to be able to bring that up. It wasn't deemed relevant Initially, but it does factor into the hardship this year Okay, because um, the the the applicant had the uh, or at least the construction company Had a prior application before for demolition And they had a a mold report and and I just didn't remember if this one had a mold report that kind of helped us understand the depth of the issues so, um Okay, so that was just my comment Thank you commissioner johnson anyone else I'll go ahead and speak my mind then in that case. Um, chair bouchard here My recollection is I voted in support of a delay when this was considered back in june um I am on the fence about continuing that delay and the reason why is I don't know if we're going to get a better outcome than what is proposed here today um Three months of run nine months or left We can certainly hold the applicant to what we decided on the previous case um In the hopes of perhaps we get a better outcome. Um, then what is being proposed here particularly with the companion case to follow um Well, we are talking about a non-contributing structure They're willing to incorporate historic materials from a non-contributing structure into a new structure, which I think does At least continue To some extent the legacy of the existing structure um, and I am somewhat swayed by the excerpt from the Watts hill and dale local historic preservation plan that's included in the coa report um That reads in pertinent part A few dozen houses primarily duplexes built between world war two and the early 1960s Sharing different architectural character not congruent with the rest of the neighborhood um End of the day. I think we need to give serious thought to what role if any we can play as a commission to Basically reserving or re-rostering properties in the jurisdiction in the neighborhoods. Um On which we currently have jurisdiction um I feel like we have obtained a benefit here from imposing a 365 day delay back in june At the risk of repeating myself. I'm not sure we're going to do any better. Um, then what has been presented here Uh, and so I am inclined to switch the vote I had made back in june and to support Uh, this coa and to move forward with uh demolition Reutilizing these materials into, um, the accessory structure proposed in the next case um and Affording miz mclure and excuse me miz mclure elliot and miz mclure the ability to um build their house move out of their rental property and uh and move forward Mr chairman commissioner de baird So I'd like to echo commissioner johnson's comments in that I'm not I'm not sure one that we've allowed this process to play out the way We had envisioned it three months ago Um, given them the 365 was I thought to allow You know this process to go a while and hopefully find someone Who might be willing to purchase this house and rehabilitate it? I think two the the moniker non contributing is Not really appropriate for a house of this age Um, I'm getting ready to go to a seminar that is going to address Exactly this situation these types of homes that miss the cutoff not because they were um Not worthy but because of age and now because of age if we re um Did this historic district this house and many others would be included and this type of house and this type of architecture and and Decise everything now is being recognized as um as important and significant so non contributing bothers me a little bit and that It is in a way contributing and we're just now beginning to realize in what way it is and then thirdly if You buy property in a historic district. I feel like you should consider the default being that you will not demolish the home, but you will Rehab it or restore it and there are tax credits and All sorts of benefits to doing that and that's why we created these districts So I would have a really hard time reversing our Past decision because i'm not sure the process has played out the way we envisioned it and the way The criteria envisions it In order to maintain the characteristics of these neighborhoods Thank you commissioner de berry. Uh, we have yet to hear from vice chair ghoulsby and commissioner hamilton Hey, katie. Why don't you go ahead? This is commissioner hamilton um I'm struggling with this one because I do feel that A delay will just end up with us not getting salvaged materials In this lack of delay at least is getting us salvaged materials However, I do understand commissioner de berry's point that like really the intent of this Is to encourage preservation of of houses and you know losing The This type of Structure is problematic when it is such a defining characteristic of the district and So i'm i'm on the fence. I honestly could probably vote either way with with the commission as they They see fit Thank you commissioner hamilton vice chair ghoulsby so so I was one of the Folks for no delay on on this project Reason being then is uh Most of the non contributing aspect to it um I wish we would have had some kind of stance beforehand Going into that media of you know, this is what is going to contribute or post-war home is going to be part of a contributing district um So I I tend to Want to stick with that vote That this is a non contributing structure And that we need as a commission or the city Needs to look at our guidelines And our definitions for these districts and if we want to include These post-war homes we need to change the criteria to one help us Have some understanding On how on which way to sway and to give the neighborhoods an understanding that these types of structures are important Um You know, I I don't think we're penalizing but I'll use that that word. I don't necessarily want to penalize this couple for Or this property for being the one that we're choosing to make our stance on on post-war homes um So again, I tend to lead me toward my original vote as uh, no delay um I do wish as part of this presentation um That the original parties to present it could have been here And and be able to talk about you know has it's been a a resolved matter um, but I think with the delay The idea is to pursue other options um And what I'm what I've heard is that that hasn't been that so this is some areas where I do have some conflict with with actually um This current, um case is I I'm not convinced that the 365 delay has been satisfied for the the intent of that by putting the 365 um that's um The conversations were had and we and that conclusion has been resolved there only because there's not the evidence to to really present um I will say my my personal thought is the salvage materials aspect to it. Um Doesn't really sway me uh to In terms of this is uh relieving the The historic, you know, importance of this building. I mean it's it to me. It's a good gesture to to reclaim these materials and reuse them um, but it doesn't say that hey this building was so important that we You know, we did something else with it. You know, we didn't move it. We didn't um You know keep it in its state. It doesn't doesn't contribute as it currently is. You know, it's again, it's it to me It's a good gesture. Um So with that said again, I I'm I still look to my Previous vote, but do add those other other comments so I appreciate that vice chair goesby. Um, I mean we got ourselves obviously a very close case here. Um Let me remind the applicant that This board has three grounds we can consider to Approve of a demolition without delay and the standards are the property owner will suffer extreme hardship The property owner will be permanently deprived of all beneficial use of a return from such property by virtue of the delay Or the building has no special significance or value toward maintaining the character of the district I'm not sure the applicant is going to convince a sufficient number of um members of this board that This building has no special significance. Um, and I'm certainly uh sympathetic and actually in agreement with the argument that There's some arbitrariness to labeling these structures as non contributing Because based on their age based on the contributions they've made to the historic neighborhood for more than half a century Um, it's certainly arguable that they're not contributing I also don't think it's going to be possible to convince a majority of this board that The homeowners will be permanently deprived of beneficial use of the property by waiting another nine months which gets really to the first criteria, which is The property owner will suffer extreme hardship Um, as I mentioned, it's one of the reasons why I'm considering changing my vote from uh, what it was in june uh, but I also get the sense especially in listening to commissioner johnson's questions that there is um insufficient information At least in in her mind and perhaps in the mind of other commissioners on that question. Um, I realize we just uh, you know Uh, continue the last case and I don't want to be the the chair that kicks cases down the road. Um, but I at least want to put the option on the table since it looks to me like the way to get around the delay Um, at least in my mind based on everything I've heard is to as for the applicant to demonstrate um, extreme hardship if it might make sense To give this process another 30 days or 60 days Provide that evidence So that it's a little bit more firm and perhaps a little bit more persuasive for some of the commissioners Um, and in the interim also have an opportunity to perhaps get up with folks like mr. Miller to see if there's anything else possible out there Um, again, I I realize we've been going at it for a while here It's probably nothing too satisfactory to either the applicant or to this board in considering another continuance, but um, it's not entirely clear to me that there are votes in support of Uh, this application this afternoon and I at least wanted to put it on the table To see if anyone wanted to bite at it I I just have a quick question for staff Maybe I don't remember how I voted and maybe that had helped me because I remember being torn at the time. Does anybody remember? Yeah, I pulled it up. It was uh, this commissioner calls me. Uh, it was myself and tom kurt That voted which way? No delay. Okay Do any commissioners in my my recollection? I was going to add my recollection of the discussion was it was primarily The the importance of post-war buildings and whether or not it's contributing to Not necessarily in itself, but in the neighborhood And it that is a good point to be able to say that there is a diversity of of ages of homes in the neighborhood Um, it certainly does contribute to that piece And goes me and I agree with you. You know thinking about it now If we haven't um, do we have a leg to stand on if it's not if we don't specifically If if it's not stated in the in the national register nomination, which is kind of the document we use to Identify historic character And things that are contributing I don't know. I think I'm still in between but On the other hand, I still don't feel like I have enough evidence that the property is Cannot is Cannot be repaired or we have And that there is an economic hardship issue Like I said before there was a report before a mold report before they helped us determine that and we didn't have that this month I think the central tension we have here Is once the building is demolished. There's no going back It's gone. Um, and Yeah, I mean that's that's it. It's it's gone now. There are reasons stated in our Approval criteria for demolitions as to why it's acceptable for that to happen without delay um, and I I think that's the central tension at least that I'm dealing with personally is not wanting to see a structure that I think reasonable minds can Agree is historic even if not contributing Um, but at the same time make a an accommodation where it's it's warranted and again Commissioners, I don't know how you feel about the issue. Um, and maybe I'll put it to commissioner johnson first I mean would having additional information about the potential hardship The applicant would suffer if the um full 365 days Is imposed would that potentially have an impact on on your vote? absolutely would And um, and if there's a claim that the mold is um, that there's so much mold that it can't be What's the word I mean cleaning up environment. Yeah, thank you Um remediate it then that will also be helpful too But yes, if you if you can If we can figure out some type of guideline value of the property How much is going to cost it's going to cost and if we can see that the percentage Compared to the value. I don't know. Um, we'll have to figure out a guideline for that, but it just helped me Um, but yes, thank you. So I guess I'll put the question then to um, the applicant, um, mr. McClure and ms. McClure Elliot Is this Additional information that you feel like you could provide to us in say the next 30 days so that we can put this back on Uh for hearing in november I realize that would be five months into the delay period, but if the Information provided is compelling. Um We may be able to Give consideration to removing the remaining seven month delay I would defer to mr. Parker on that because he did although he doesn't have firm numbers. He did Make evaluation and half time to reflect on it into discussion with mr. Miller and still came to The conclusion that it wasn't a viable option We're a holistic healthcare providers practitioners in addition to being You know traditional medical practitioners and the issue of mold Is one that can have serious repercussions And that's something that You know if it's can't be remediated and if it's severe as the report Appeared to show That's not a home that we would want to live in appreciate this conversation and Again y'all's willingness to just Continue to engage after So such a long meeting. Um I recognize The various arguments and the tensions that it is here um I want to be clear that We have tried I have personally tried everything I know to do within this process to Be by the book I honor the various constituents in the neighborhood from the preservation Commission and preservation Durham and even from the very out when we talk to city staff Here's not contributing. Here's all the issues. You need more reporting. You need structural And there was no precedent For this ruling for a not contributing structure. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be preferred I respect that genre of Of architecture. We preserved and restored the one next door We're submitting enough, but you're gonna have an application next month that'll come before this board of a ad you where We specifically Changed the design because of the ruling based on this case But it's a struggle for me when we try to do everything we know to do I'm holding mold report right here. I've got shrubs here. I've got all of this stuff To then say well, it's not contributing But maybe it should be I don't disagree. But what rules are we then supposed to follow and at what cost? because I struggle using the word hardship because We're I'm blessed. We're all blessed like we can figure it out But at the end of the day, we spent 10 over 10,000 additional dollars to get from June 1st to today And I agree with with mr. Goldsman the the gesture of the Studio is not something that I would propose that is Is commensurate with preserving the house as it sits but Non contributing isn't the same thing as contributing either So I feel like it's a consideration that is consistent with the inconsistencies that exist within this whole debate And so, you know on a financial hardship perspective The cost of all this at this point Is at market or above like the market sharey have been incredibly gracious and patient and it's their Their passion and perseverance that are keeping them here today. I think But it can't Time is only worsening that spread in economics. It just is and so To say well, maybe it hasn't been fully This process hasn't run its course. Well, what is that process? because the ruling I see from june 1st is that It the impetus was on The parties that challenged our application to help find resolution But then ultimately I scheduled that I arranged that meeting I'm seeking collaboration But there's nothing from the other side and so I'm just I want to I really believe in y'all's efforts. I appreciate this commission But I'm trying to figure out how to work with that and it's it's frustrating and it's Disappointing and Being that to the Well, mr. Parker, we hear your frustration The only thing I can say in response to it is I don't know if you have And the applicants have sufficient support To have this period of delay cut today We can certainly put it to a vote I am not afraid of putting it to a vote. I've got no Reservations about putting it to a vote my sense is There could be some benefit to the applicant in providing additional information On whether or not the applicant would suffer extreme hardship And again, I'll emphasize The phrases suffer extreme hardship that includes financial, but it could also include other things My sense is we have at least one commissioner who might be swayed by additional evidence of that Um But if the desire of the applicant is to move forward with a vote today, we can certainly Put it to a vote today We do another straw poll We could do another straw poll. I think I think we know where Four votes are and it's really uh down to commissioner hamilton. Um in terms of Where she sees things I think she's deciding vote if we put it to a vote today Thanks cherry shark My apologies, um Yeah, I think some of the discussion that's been had in the last half hour With the fact that this is a non-contributing building um and that to To do the apply the criteria that we have The question of whether or not it should be contributing Um, probably Is one we need to address. Um, but it's non-contributing now. Um, and that's the criteria that We are, you know, we're looking at is like the historic value of it. And so I understand completely Mr. Parker's argument that It's considered non-contributing. So the you know, what is the historic value and how do you determine that if the If the written Record says it's not contributing So with that in mind um I I would be willing to vote for this but I would ask the commission if we should re-evaluate our Does contributing and non-contributing moving forward following this case. Um, that would be my stance today and Go ahead. Mr. Johnson I I just um, I just have one last final comment. Um, based on the last statement from mr. Parker um, I think that Sometimes what I see in these situations is that people don't treat The application process for the demolition of a non-contributing structure as they do for a contributing structure Because I didn't know that you had a mold report But for whatever reason it wasn't submitted. So that was inconsistent with a previous application that you had that was contributing And you submitted that you brought the mold expert there. They were speaking um, and so you know, I I think that you know Just because of building is not contributing doesn't mean that the same amount of work is not required I think that you have to make the case I mean, we don't even have pictures showing mold in the house. I mean that to me that helps like make your case Um, and I think that's another reason why I personally struggle because I don't know You know, you could be talking about a little piece of mold, you know in the corner Well, I know um, and I've seen that before and that could be clean that could be remediated. Um, so um, I just want to say just for future reference when you're dealing with a non-contributing structure treated As if it is contributing and you're you're trying to make your case Um, if you say something in the application bring the evidence and support it and say hey, this is the situation that will help That's all thanks I appreciate that that is their no learning opportunity for us through Carla, can we have a staff recommendation? Carl Rosenberg planning department staff would recommend approval of the application Um, amending the previous Uh ruling to remove the delay Everyone our next step is to move um Or continue Um, I'm happy to make a motion. It sounds like you might have adequate support today All right, I will move The Durham Historic Preservation Commission finds that in the case coa 21 00060 2326 Englewood Avenue demolition of primary structure The applicant is proposing to demolish a non-contributing primary structure dating from circa 1960 The commission has determined the structure to lack sufficient historical value or structural integrity to preserve it The commission has determined that the property owner Has shown substantive evidence of facing extreme hardship or being permanently deprived of all beneficial use of or return from the property by virtue of a delay The site will be stabilized with grass seed and straw following demolition No further construction has thus far been proposed therefore in accordance with udo requirements and ncgs 160d-949 The coa for the proposed demolition is approved without a delay Um, Carla is my planning department. I apologize. One of those bullet points I must not have Edited it correctly. It should say that There was any construction previously proposed and it was approved Let me reread the last bullet. The site will be stabilized with grass seed and straw following the demolition Period therefore in accordance with udo requirements and ncgs 160d-949 The coa for the proposed demolition is approved. Excuse me is approved without a delay Here we have a second second Second from vice chair ghoulsby clerk elliot. I'll vote please um chair for sardin approved Commissioner de berry no uh vice chair ghoulsby approved uh commissioner hamilton approved commissioner johnson now motion passes three to two We're going to move straight away into our next and final case. I believe we have the same roster of speakers This is case coa two zero two two one zero zero six one two three two six anglewood avenue new construction of accessory structure and site work I don't believe there's anyone here who has a conflict of interest in hearing the case Uh, so let us proceed with the swearing in actually if everyone's already sworn in christa any need to swear in the same witnesses for this case okay, uh Clerk elliot if you could go ahead and read the oath Thank you. Do you swear? Do you swear or affirm that a testimony you're about to give in the public? Here in proceeding for today's case is the truth by your own knowledge or by information and beliefs This on the floor Yes, yes Ms. McClure elliot Yes, yes And mr. Parker Yes, I do Mr. Montague Yes And once again, do all of you consent to this case being presented via the zoom platform, uh, mr. McClure Yes, yes Ms. McClure elliot. Yeah Mr. Parker If I have a verbal, please. Oh, yes, and mr. Montague Yes Thank you Staff report carla. Thank you Carla Roseburg planning department. This is case syria 21 000 61 23 26 and wood avenue new construction of an accessory structure and site work Owner and applicant riverbank development presented by david parker located north side of angle with avenue between alabama and virginia avenues So address a total urban five a non-contributing Structure parcel within the lat-sailing office to our district So the applicant is proposing to construct a new accessory structure repurposing materials that were contained within the building and site of the previous Primary structure, which was just approved for demolition. I'd like to Introduce the staff report into the record and invite mr. Parker to present his case Well, I know this one was Inter-tangled with the previous one. So I walked The labor this but as you know, we We've created this design to mimic The front elevation of the existing home. It's built almost entirely of repurposed materials and a lot of Time and effort and iterations went into Creating this what you see here before you would try to match the The proportions of the existing structure Have a flexible from a utility perspective a flexible space that addresses the backyard and the new primary structure and one that With a covered portion Combined with The Studio type shed space. It's one that that has a nice week though has a nice transition from enclosed space to just outdoor and yard and additionally if there's connectivity with the repurposed concrete elements that Preston is designed within the rear yard in front yard Thank you, mr. Parker. Is there anybody else from the applicant who wishes to present in support of the application? I'd like to say something Please respond to you I just wanted to also reiterate an earlier statement about The way myself and rearbank have been working on landscape performance with the mclores in an effort to maintain Certain degree of historic ecological Function of the site in what I think are really sophisticated ways that aren't really always apparent and it's an unfortunate part of landscape and some of the most important parts are hidden underground and uh that there are In my opinion some really exciting and sophisticated ways that we've all been Myself looking at historic stormwater movement Through the city and recognizing that currently it has become a problem for neighbors and that the landscape suggestions that we're making on this property Not only help to proceed historic conditions for stormwater movement actually making This property Actually beneficial to three or four neighbors down if not even further in the neighborhood um and Really appreciate The mclores giving me the opportunity to Use upcycled materials from the site As a way to strengthen and rehabilitate the site Thank you for that. Thank you Mr. McClure, Ms. McClure Elliott anything further? No, listen, I just want to say we really appreciate the commission We're new residents to Durham We've lived we've lived here for over a year. We've been in the triangle for over 25 years But as a commission I see that you wrestle with very difficult Situations and that your hearts are in the right direction. I just thank you for your work and your service to the community Thank you Commissioner is any questions for the applicant? Hearing none. I'll ask if there is anyone else present who would like to speak for or against the case Hearing from nobody else I will go ahead and close the public hearing so we can have discussion amongst commissioners commissioners I realized I think With respect to this property the hard work may have been the prior case but that being said I certainly want to entertain any conversation folks want to have about the Application in front of us right now if any The commissioner calls me not anything that kind of strikes me and thinking about historic districts um is the placement of this accessory uh building on the site and not necessarily that it's at the back rear of the lot But that it's in a different orientation to the house um I often think of the accessory Building being um in a similar orientation and I want to open that up to discussion Really good question Our criteria requires that new accessory structures be to the side or rear of the primary structure Have any Mr. Montague have a reason from a wind direction thing that he could share as to why it might be oriented that way Absolutely and thank you for the capacity to speak here. Um One of the troubles with landscape architecture is that when you design overhead like a bird some of these Juxtapositions of lines really stick out But when you're standing in the landscape and experiencing it One of the reasons this accessory structure is positioned in the way it is Is to maximize ease Of entry into the structure from the rest of the landscape. It follows a natural flow Um out of the door If you flip the shed and make it orthogonal right to line up At least kind of like spatially with the house You immediately leave the shed and are dumped immediately into the back wall of the house Now the front door the shed faces as you enter into the backyard furthermore the shed is positioned in a way that it Takes advantage of the topography And uh is also designed to move storm water around it like a wedge Dividing that flow reducing its volume and its velocity so that it enters the neighbor behind it With less destructive force. So even in an overhead mapping position. It seems like it's a little bit weak Angled it's done. So so that it actually positively affects storm water. It positively affects airflow It's responsive to uh to human use and I don't think that it's a condition that when you're actually in the landscape Would you ever think about Andy the only criteria that I can find that would relate to it would be B3d Which states that you should orient the primary entrance quote towards the street and quote I guess it is arguable if it is on a diagonal if the primary entrance to the accessory structure is towards the street Um Um chair bouchard does that apply to accessory structures or to primary structures only It's under the new structures heading for non contributing properties Um, so it's unclear whether it's intended to apply to primary only Um, or also to accessory structures That's a very good question. I read it as applying to primary in my report I would agree with that madness chair was or uh by chair was very good Any other questions from commissioners? Any other discussion among commissioners? Hearing none. I would ask for a staff recommendation carlo rosenberg's uh planning department staff would recommend approval of this application New things along here late in the day. I will go ahead and make the motion The Durham Historic Preservation Commission finds that in the case ceo a two one zero zero zero six one two three two six Englewood avenue new construction of accessory structure and site work The applicant is proposing a one-story accessory structure measuring approximately 12 feet by 12 feet It will be constructed with bricks and a louvered stume scooby louvered storm door With street numbers salvaged from the existing primary structure on site and painted fiberglass clad wood casement windows a fully glazed fiberglass door and a modern sanding seam metal roof crevice gardens that avail themselves of natural stormwater flow will be constructed of repurposed concrete from an existing driveway and parking pad to be demolished They will be located throughout the fronts and rear yards Therefore the conclusion of law is that the proposed addition and alterations are consistent with the historic character and qualities of the historic district And are consistent with the Durham Excuse me with the historic properties local review criteria Specifically those listed in the staff report and the Durham Historic Preservation Commission approves the certificate of appropriateness for case ceo a two one zero zero six one Two three two six Englewood Avenue new construction of accessory structure and site work with the following conditions One the improvements shall be substantially consistent with the plans and testimony presented to the commission at this commission hearing and attached to the ceo a Two the improvements may require additional approvals from other city or county departments or state or local agencies The applicant is responsible for obtaining all required approvals relating to building construction site work and work in the right of way And three a compliance inspection shall be performed immediately upon completion of the work approved here in You commissioner hamilton clerk elliott roll call vote, please I don't chair facade approved Commissioner de bary approved Vice chair ghosty no commissioner hamilton approved commissioner johnson approved Motion passes for one Thank you very much. I appreciate everybody's patience here. I know we went long But we had some important discussion here on some Big issues issues that this commission will continue to grapple with but we wish Mr. McClure and miz mclure elliott Best wishes as they move forward with this project Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all Thank you Thank you, everybody That is the last of our cases members of the commission Moving on quickly to old business One item on our list. That's the newsletter right, so um Katie emailed me a draft of the newsletter and I do have some feedback for her Um, uh, just some Some additional text and a photo to highlight two projects instead of one Katie if I were to give you these edits, how long would you need to be able to Make those changes and then Send it out to the commission for review by email Um, I can probably make that pretty quickly. Um I would uh With the third like if I gave it back to you on the 13th Uh 13th is that let's see what they let me do that Yeah Monday Okay, yeah, so That and we'll tell you that What's that? I don't know if you have any ideas on how we're going to get a whole other project to fit But hopefully you've cut some by reducing Reducing some of the text in the first story Yeah, it was a struggle to get it to fit already. So I was like, um, do you want me to reduce my text? Um, Um, well, I actually already took a stab at it. Okay. I'll text I can send it to both of you and then You let me know what you think but I I yeah, I did do some peering down of the first text and then added additional second Second project text and then I'll also have a picture from that second project So, um I will I'll I'll send those to you this afternoon um and then as soon as um Monday would be great or anytime that that we cannot send it out to the commission when I receive it from Katie So that's great And we'll be ready to distribute new business New business minor coas Yes, I will get those out Wonderful. Wow Um, obviously we've got a big issue here to discuss Uh regarding these non contributing, uh properties and demolition standards. Um Carl is that part of the upcoming refeed at all or is absolutely and so one of the things is um I wanted to get your questions today If you don't have them today, if you could by any chance Send them to me by the end of the week I would love to get questions from everyone because um our presenter Um specifically said her job will be much easier if she has specific questions from you as well So now that we've had a real uh hands-on experience with this issue Hopefully everybody has some questions formulated Okay, does anybody want to share right now some questions I might have for the record and then I mean generally speaking, I'd love to know what role um this commission can play in I guess accelerating the process by which uh properties currently located in Districts within our purview, um might be added uh to the list of contributing properties because it seems like this issue could continue to crop up and I'm hoping next time We'll have a more robust list of contributing properties, but I don't know what that process entails and How we might be a part of it And then my question would be the economic improvement economic hardship Was it called economic or financial hardship? Well, I think it's a suffer extreme hardship So I think you could look at it as financial and otherwise. Um, right So, yeah, I would like we would we need to provide guidance as people just throw it out Um, but we don't really have a way to measure what what that looks like We don't have thresholds Maybe that could be part of your presentation. Krista. Um regarding the legal Sure. I mean, I think it's a good question. I think unfortunately, there's not a lot of guidance in terms of case law on it. And so, um You know, Carla, I was thinking when you asked for questions That was going to be something that I thought we should discuss and it could be that maybe Our our other speaker has guidance on that because I I think we can come up with sort of reasonable factors for the commission to consider In making that determination, but we don't have anything that's required of us In making that decision. So I think, you know, looking at the The finances is a really concrete way of evaluating it. Um, but if if our other speaker has ideas I think that would be really helpful Well, our other speaker is um in charge of the national register side of things rather than clg So I'm not sure how verse she is in in what we face today Certainly about contributing status, um for mid-century structures, um, but I can Do we define hardship in our UDL? I don't think so Hey, Chris, if I were to send you a copy of my opening script, would you be able to change the Session law reference and the statutory reference to what it should be now? I would do that That's an easy that's an easy job I know it changed that I've been meaning to try to find the new sites, but I'll let y'all handle it Check Y'all, thanks so much. I mean these meetings are going long and part of that's a function of the way I'm handling things I'm not quite sure how to move things along faster We we had some contentious stuff today I don't think it's you it's not us Matt, um, I think you did I think great leading us through this discussion today. I didn't hear You know redundancies like we have in the past I would say that the hard part today was just having the evidence We needed to make a clear decision. Yeah Yeah, I agree. I think you did a wonderful job and these were hard cases and we knew it was going to be that way um, and so I think y'all did a really great job of tackling each issue and Being really logical and methodical in your deliberations Appreciate that feedback carla. How are we looking for october? uh or cases We think it's four. Okay, because one with your one we come in Yeah, it's four And I don't think they're gonna be quite as difficult as these Thank goodness excellent All right, does anyone have anything else before we adjourn? Yeah, thanks again everyone. I know it was long Bye. Have a good day. Have a great month