 Welcome once again to the breakfast and plus to the Africa. We're now joined this morning by Professor Meka Ozorji the Director Center for No Magic Education in the University of Jaws. Good morning, Professor Ozorji. Good morning, Professor Ozorji. Can you hear me? Hello. Good morning. Thanks for joining us. Good morning. How are you? Very well. Thanks for joining us All right. Can you hear me clearly, Professor Ozorji? Yes. Yes, I can hear you. All right. You're welcome. Can you hear me clearly? Yes. Okay. Well, we're just trying to start with asking for latest updates from Plateau State. The renews reports say that 36 people were killed, you know, in the latest attacks. There's also been evacuations from the University of Jaws because of the crisis also happening over there. So can you give us the latest updates from Plateau State? All right. Okay. Good morning, presenter. The situation in Jaws, Plateau State, is calm following the imposition of coffee, 24-hour coffee in the city. And people are really complying with their coffee. Everywhere is calm. People are not moving around. And I thank you for continuing this way. Before long, the coffee will be reviewed. I'm really impressed with the response to what the governments call coffee. Yeah, Bob, you know, would you say the curfew is the answer to ending the killings in Jaws? Well, it is, I suppose, because if the coffee wasn't imposed by now, the story would have been quite different and it would have been more disastrous. So I think I would commend the governor for taking proactive measures to increase the period of coffee from six to six to 24 hours. And that has actually brought the situation to very normal for now that people are indoors. And it's actually happening. All right. So now let's talk about, you know, seek details into what exactly is happening. What would you say is responsible for these killings? Who are these people that are committing these atrocities? Well, this is a security issue. And I think we have to listen to those who are responsible for handling or managing security in the place. As a non-security person, one cannot make exact guess of what actually prompted or what caused the situation on ground. So for all of you who can say is that we know something is happening. Where it is coming from or who caused what. One is not in a position to say or to know because there's not what we do. What's the area of action or the addition? I mean, but I mean, don't you have, you know, any ideas whatsoever, you know, where this might be coming from, you know, are these communal clashes that these attacks by, you know, militia. And of course, this includes also the crisis. Now, let's also go into the University of Johnson where you're, you know, a professor. Yes. In the last, you know, few weeks, we've heard about, you know, state governments sending bosses to evacuate their indigents from the University of Johnson. So you're in the University of Johnson. Can you also give us some clarity as to what is going on? While the problem started, the University of Johnson was running a semester examination for 2019-2020 session as it was in the middle of that exam that this problem started. And the University administration took very prompt action by suspending the exams for that week, hoping that the situation will return to normal for us to continue. Unfortunately, it didn't. And quickly, the University administration now extended the suspension of the examination until further notice and asked students to go home until the situation is normal, then they will be recalled, even sufficient time to come back and resume their exams. Yeah. But you mentioned, you know, that it was during the semester examinations, the crisis started, what I'm trying to get, and this is what I hope that you'll be able to share with us, what exactly is the crisis? That's what we're trying to understand this morning. Because this is a university community. So what exactly is the crisis that you're speaking of in University of Johnson? The university community. And we only hear that this has happened or this is going to happen. What constant is within the people outside the university? But we know we experience the ripple effects of the situation, the scenario in the city. But for us as academic staff, the university as a member of the community shares some of the pains of what has happened. For instance, right now, students at home, lecturers are not going to work, university is more or less like a good staff. That is the ripple effect of what has happened. And for as long as it is this way, there will be no progress in the academic calendar. And that will set us back really, rather moving forward. Has there been any incidents that have happened on campus? Come again. Have there been any incidents that have taken place on campus? Well, apart from the people that were killed the first time that it happened, no other one has actually happened. And we don't pray that any other one will happen within the university community. And as staff or students, right now students at home, so we don't expect them to be affected. Yes. Okay, so can you also share a little bit about the first incident, the one you're referring to? What was that incident about? I'm sorry, come again. I'm asking about the incident you just referred to. Can you share a little bit, you know, more information? Oh certainly, there's the influence. The university is part of the ecosystem of the community of the state. And now all the businesses that depend on students and staff are all grounded. And the community, immediate community of the university is like a ghost town. Those that apply and convey students to hostel or lectures are not there. The food vendors are not there. Those around the provision shops and all that are not there. So it affects everybody within that community. Yeah, well, what I'm trying to get an apologies that I keep, you know, happen on this. You mentioned an incident that happened there the first time on campus that of course you're saying, you know, there is hopes that it never repeats itself. That's so it's that incident I'm trying to get. Was that also, you know, killing by a militia, you know, on campus? Was that a communal clash on campus? Was that a tribal clash on campus? Well, all I can say is that we're all in the campus doing kind of auto legitimate activities when it is started. And the coffee that was imposed, not many, but not everybody actually had no about that. About those that got to know actually stayed in the hostels. Quite a few, probably for one reason or the other. For instance, the lady, the student that was going to church, running to this type of problem. But apart from that, if what that thing was quite normal, and the loss of life, those students was very actually of very unfortunate. And we pray that we don't experience such again, parents, they send their children to school, to experience that type of situation. And we pray that when we have the opportunity to call back we can find our safety activities, product lectures, write the exams, and bounce back to normal flow of academic program in the university. All right. What's the current security situation in Joss? Are there security agents, you know, you know, across the city? Well, the town and gown, the town and gown effects of the university and community stay there. And we hope that we will live peacefully. And we respect each other's rights to live peacefully. And because that will give us the opportunity to benefit from each other. And that is what our prayer is. No, what I'm asking is, you know, now that there is a curfew, is the town, is the community, are there security agents currently present in that community? Well, it's difficult for me to say because I'm in my house. I say responsibilities in my house. So I wouldn't know precisely what is happening out there within the university community. But I know within where I live, everybody is responding and everywhere is calm. Okay. You know, and you know, what other response would you want from the governor of the state, Simon Lalong? I'm asking what other, you know, steps would you expect from the governor of the state? Oh, I'm actually full of praise for the governor for actually taking that immediate step to impose the curfew. And I believe, as the chief secretary of the state, his administration will discuss probably with our own administration, and when they put their heads together, they will come up with an ever praying ground that will make for peace and comfort, prayer, existence. I'm sure at that level, the governor is responsible, the activist chancellor of the university is also responsible. And two of them will never allow this type of situation to drag for long. And I'm sure they're actually putting their heads together. They are discussing the issue. And before long, the actions they made is they are holding with their fruits. And not much to talk about. Professor Ameka Ozarji, thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much for the opportunity. All right. Some of these conversations are really set for truth and clarity with regards to what exactly is taking place in Jaws. And you know, so that the media itself also stops misinterpreting some of these things. We will, of course, we'll be speaking with someone else in Plateau State this morning to understand better, you know, if these are communal clashes, if there's a killings by militia groups, if these are killings by bandits, or if these are religious, you know, issues once again. I'll take a short break. When we come back, we'll be joined by someone else who, of course, is reaching out to us from Plateau State this morning. Welcome once again this morning on the breakfast in PlosTV Africa. We're now joined by Dan Manjang, the commissioner for information Plateau State. Good morning, Mr. Manjang. Thanks for joining us. Yeah. Good morning, Nigeria. Good morning, everyone. All right. Let's get into the discussion. I want us to start with getting some clarity as to what exactly is happening in Jaws. Yeah. Well, what is happening in Jaws is in the public domain, but I can tell you the official issue is officially is that there is a curfew that has been imposed on Jaws North, local government, Jaws South, and then Jaws North, Jaws Southern, Bahasa, local governments. This curfew we had, we, we, yeah. Hello. Go ahead, Mr. Manjang. Yes, I said what is happening is that there has been a curfew imposed on Jaws North, Jaws South, and Bahasa local governments. We were on the verge of relaxing the curfew in Jaws North because it was for 24 hours. When we, when we, when we had a carnage the day before yesterday in the night, we had an issue, people were killed, scores of people were killed. And so what happened, what has happened right now is that the curfew, the 24-hour curfew on Jaws North was restored under the directive of His Excellency, the governor of Plateau State. We arrests have been made if you had the, if you have, if you are privy to the press release that was issued by the director of press and public affairs, arrests have been made. Yes. Yeah, Mr. Manjang. Yes, I, I have- You're not hearing me. Yes, we can hear you. We're aware that arrests have been made. I think the papers say about 10 people have been arrested. But you know, what I'm, what we're hoping that we would understand is what exactly is causing the killings in Jaws? Who are these people responsible for these killings? Can you share with us from what you know you know? Yes, from, from, from what we know, like the one that happened last week, or they are about, the, the arrests will, will show, we will now unravel the people that are doing the killing. But we wouldn't want to stereotype the people, the security is doing that. But I can tell you what clearly is playing out is historical. It has been over the years. What is clearly playing out is that apart from the criminal element that is involved, there's every attempt to be able to chase people from their land and then, and then occupy it, because that has happened in the past. And what government has been able to do is to provide the enabling law to an antigraving bill that has been signed into law by His Excellency, the governor of Plato State. And so we expect that people would now go, will take advantage of this law. But I cannot show you that clearly it is, apart from the criminal elements that is involved, it is an attempt to, because of the pressure on land, to be able to chase people and then occupy their land. So, who, who are these persons that are trying to occupy the lands of people in Jaws? Like I said, the investigation is, is going to show. It's not for me to say this to stereotype a people now, because these people are, the arrests have been made and investigation is going on. There are people that have made, there are people that have made confessional statements, even in the past week, putting, even pointing accusing fingers to some community leaders that have been on bail and their bail conditions have been, have been, have been considered. And we take it from there, the, the, the judiciary, the honest rest upon the judiciary to be able to tell us who these people are. Mr. Manjong, you're not necessarily stereotyping anyone. What we're trying to understand is, you know, who these people are, you know, that are trying to chase residents in, in these communities in Jaws away from their land. It's, it's not stereotyping anyone. It's simply saying that, you know. The investigations, the investigations are going to show who these people are. Investigations are on. It will amount for the, it will amount for me putting the, the card before the horse. Okay. Where investigations is not, is not concluded. It's going to be prejudicial for me to do that. But when the time comes and the, and the investigations are concluded, we will put it in the public domain. At this moment, we will not be able to put it in the public domain because the investigation is going on. There are people that are handling the matter and I cannot go on public television and then go ahead of them and say, these are the people. I'm not part of the arrest. Probably, probably the commissioner of police would be able to tell you. Okay. Now, now let's also talk about the reaction of the plateau state governor. There was a curfew that was imposed in just north, which has now been extended, you know, and made to a 24 hour curfew. Would you say that a curfew initially failed? And this might be, you know, work this time? We wouldn't say that the curfew failed because without that curfew being put in place, the situation would have escalated. It would have been worse. It would have been a free for all fight on the streets of just and beyond. And so the curfew has been able to put people in check wherever that they are. The curfew has been able to put a lot of security to occupy these areas and bring to the barest minimum the courage would have been experiencing on the city of those. Yes, they are up in the pockets of even killing during the curfew period. But it is not enough for us to say that the curfew failed. The curfew as far as we are concerned as a government is doing what it is supposed to do is providing the enabling environment so that we can checkmate this kind of crisis. Otherwise, it would have been a free for all. What I'm saying is these only three local governments out of the 17 that this thing is happening, it has not even is filled over to any of the local government. So we thank God that the situation and the peace initiatives that we are putting the curfew being one has been able to contain the crisis where it is at the moment. On the state level, Mr. Manjang, this isn't the first time that we're hearing of, sadly, it's not the first time we're hearing of a situation like this or killing in Platoon State in the last couple of years. Has there been anyone in the last few years that has been prosecuted to the full extent of the law has been arrested and prosecuted for these killings? As a state government, I was managing information during the past administration and I understand the issues very well. There was the Nikitobi Commission of Inquiry set up by pre-administration before the other one, the Joshua Dari administration, the Jonathan administration had a commission of inquiry and I can assure you that what government did is to be able to come up with white papers to provide the enabling environment to make sure that there's prosecution. One of the issues why people are so angry is because the provisions of these commissions of inquiry have not been implemented. People are calling and we also call for the implementation. I can tell you that the Nikitobi Commission of Inquiry, for example, inducted a commissioner of police and said that he should be relieved of his position but he was instead promoted to the position to the rank of an IG. These are some of the things that people would say, what have you done on your own part as a government? Government has been able to be magnanimous to come up with the white paper in the first place. Otherwise, if the white paper was not brought, you will not have anybody to, you will not have the document to prosecute and you know, me, you know that prosecution depends on, it's at different levels. For government to be able to provide the white paper is good enough and there are other levels, the courts need to prosecute individuals who feel they are shortchanged. The white paper provides for them to go and seek redress in the courts of law and those are the issues. Government cannot do what people need to do. People, there are things that government would do and there are things that the people would do. There are things that other arms of government would do, which they may not seem to be doing. So, okay, well, so are you then saying that, you know, progressive governments in Plateau State have had their hands tied and not been able to prosecute anybody, you know, for these killings, including those who have been arrested in the past because now there's more arrests. So, you know, these people who have been arrested and investigated, you know, would you say that they also will not be prosecuted? Yeah, when you talk about government now, then you have to specify, you have to define which part of government. The executive arm of government has been able to provide the enabling environment by coming up with the white paper. And so, the executive arm of government will not arrest, the executive arm of government will not prosecute, will not take people to court, but the enabling environment has been provided by coming up with the white paper, ratified, duly ratified by the state executive council. So, what you are saying now is that the state security agencies, the state's criminal justice system has not been able to act on recommendations from the Plateau State government over time? It's not what I am saying. If people have been given justice, there are instances whereby people were caught in this state in the past, in the life of the past administration, they were taken to court. In the process of them being prosecuted, their court files were transferred to Abuja, and that was the end of it. It is in the public domain. At that point, what would the state government have done? Because they were being prosecuted in the place where according to the enabling laws. This is what we are saying that justice, if justice is not done, there is not only seen to be done, justice must be done so that people, so that it can serve as a deterrence to others. But what I am saying is that as a government, the enabling environment has been created so that justice can be delivered to those that feel they have been shortchanged. The governor of Plateau State was also seen to have visited President Muhammad Al-Bawari sometime this week or sometime last week. Can you confirm that there was that visit and what the conversation was like in Asorak? Yes, there has been, there was that visit and the conversation is also in the public domain. The conversation is talking about the state of insecurity of the state. The conversation is talking about the humanitarian crisis that we have. And the President, Federal Republic of Nigeria has given directive that the Minister of Humanitarian Affairs should be, should take charge and should come to the aid of Plateau State. Because we have that, we have that at the back of our mind. And what the governors of such states are saying, they should be, they should not be called only Chief Security Officers of their state, but they should be given some semblance of authority to be able to command the troops. And that is the state police policing and in some instances community policing. But the President of the Federal Republic of Nigeria has been up and doing, has cooperated, has directed the Spectre General Police to send detachment of mobile police to come and reinforce the ones, the security men that are here on ground. And that has been working for us. Without this cooperation, without the Federal Government, I don't think we would have been where we are. Little would have been done that the President has acted within the capacities of his powers. But what we are saying is that still more that needs to be done, like people would always say, as Oliver Twist will always ask for more. If there's anything that we would ask, we also want to appeal to our brothers in the National Assembly, because it is the constitutional matter. Let them give the governors the teeth to bite, not for them to only bite, not for them to only buy vehicles, buy gadgets for security, fund security. And at the end of the day, they cannot command even a boy's brigade, a captain of the boy's brigade. Yeah, but, you know, there's also security votes that are being sent to the governors every month. I'm sure you are aware of that. There's funds being sent for security. And so it's expected that, you know, the governor should be able to make use of those funds in somehow or some way to ensure the protection of lives and property in his state. Don't you agree with that? It's being done. That is being done. That is why we are supporting the security. That is why in Plateau State today, we have the peace building agency and we are supporting the agency with that. That is why we have the interreligious council where we are supporting them. And that is why we have, as a state, we have oppression rainbow, which is a sampler of the state police, and we are supporting them. And that is why in this state, in Plateau State, we have been able to employ 3,500 youths and posted them to 17 local governments and trained by the police for intelligence, guarding and matters like that. And it has helped. It has yielded results. Otherwise, if we had not done all those things, I can assure you, we live in just. The problem with people is that people that don't live inside just are the problem. They don't know what is happening. Without these initiatives that we have put in place, there would have been no Plateau State today. I assure you. Okay. So, you know, share with us, you know, and I hope that we can, or before I get into that, I want you to go a little deeper with some of the concerns that you made, you stated earlier. You said that there has been a white paper. There has been a, you know, action plan that has been stated over time by governors and governments of Plateau State, but there doesn't seem to be action from the executive. You may mention of people who have been arrested, who have been found culpable, and their files are transferred to Abuja, and that, you know, seems to be the end of the case. Is this information, you know, also being sent to President Muhammad Abu Hari? Is he aware? At that time, at that time that that happened, it was not President Muhammad Abu Hari that was there. That was there. It was in the life life of the past administration, because I was I was the media advisor to the to the then Governor Jang at that time. And so I knew the situations very well. And the past administration did raise this and we are raising it in the public, in the public domain now. Whatever happened is in the public, it happened with human beings, and it will not be out of place for the for the federal authorities, even in this administration to raise the issues. All what we are what we are saying is is to be able to find solutions to the problem that we are. We have to go back and dust the book, dust all those white papers, dust what has happened if we want to refer to ourselves and make sure that justice is delivered. Because justice denied is not good. It will be a recurrence. And and and God and this piece matter, this piece process, it should be all hands must be undead. When you say government and I have problems with that. Yes, we know that government who has a responsibility, we have shown to even protect life's property. And that is what we are doing. But all hands must also be undead because government is also human beings. Government is not an abrasion, is not a utopia. Government is human being is people. Before we I'm going to be introducing another guest to of course join in this conversation. But I want to ask Dan Manjang, the commissioner for information plateau state, how do you feel personally about these killings in your state? We feel very bad, very, very bad, very sad because there's a lot that we need to have done. We have been we have gone so many years backwards now because resources are being channeled to what we did not bargain for. And even if it was something that we bargain for, we will not bargain for crisis. We feel bad. I feel bad as a human being. We feel bad as a government that peace initiative has been ruptured that our developmental efforts are being slowed down. And so and every we feel bad when even an animal is killed wrongly. So we feel bad that even if it is a human being only one soul that will lose wrongly, we feel very bad about it. So it's not a thing that any any right thinking person on plateau state would say is happy about. All right, I'm going to get back to you with regards to the relationship and communications with the commission of police in plateau state. But before that, I want to introduce Dave Zoyong, he's a native of Anaguta. I hope I pronounced it right. Good morning Mr. Zoyong. Good morning. Nice to be here. Thanks for joining us. So I want you to quickly also share your views on what currently is going on in plateau state. Of course, if you've been following with currently speaking with the commissioner for information. But you know, you're a native. So kindly share with us as best as you can describe it. What is going on in plateau state? Thank you for the opportunity. Like you said, Anaguta by trial. And this is a very root shot for my community, because this is the very first time it's happening to us as a community. And we're getting to the lamelight just for the wrong reasons. If you are familiar, eventually, if you maybe get to read about the history of our business, we are only found in just north local governments. You probably haven't heard of us because there hasn't been any reason negatively to be heard about. We've lived peacefully with everybody in the state. Every people that come to just know us as a peace loving people. But it was a very root shock for us to wake up and see from no provocation are people are slaughtered, burned to ashes while they're sleeping. You know, it's it's I'm I'm still going through the trauma the committee is through going through morning. We've read about this. We've seen but as the people are imploded, there's a we have a bureau brothers have suffered this over time have the people that have suffered over time. But you know, you will never know how it feels to have us to you. You know, so this is something we never prepared for. We just read pages of these papers in that happens to other places in the country. We see our brothers close neighbors, these things happening to them. But you experience it yourself is a completely different thing. So the atmosphere is it's very tensive now. We're trying to grapple with the fact that we are we are we are in a very dead die situation right now in just there's a coffee going on. But you know, there are talks where comparing notes and see what we did wrong or what we did not do right for this thing to happen to us as a community. Is there any information with regards to people responsible for these attacks and these killings? You know, it's too it's too I don't want to be presumptuous about that. There's there's a process, you know, identifying arrest and identifying those are responsible for this. I spoke with the Commissioner of Police yesterday. He showed me the 10 arrests been already made already made. And I hope they will, you know, bring out the identities of those that are involved in this from stories from what has happened in the neighboring communities. It has been, you know, it is it's it's it's it's it's said that it's the full army people that do this. But I don't want to say it's full army people that did this to us until the proper investigation is done. And I'm sure I'm aware that there are a couple of people that injured and have identities of those that did that to them, but they still have to be profiled through the security agencies to have a particular identity of those that are responsible for this. Okay, and then also, you know, speak about the conversations of this being a communal clash, you know, between two tribes. Remember some some time ago, there was the Irigue community that also had its own chaos. So is there also those possibilities that this is really just two communities fighting each other? Or is it, you know, land grabbing, as the Commission for Information had earlier mentioned, is there possibilities that it's maybe people trying to, you know, kick or kill and drive some people away from their land? I will go with the latter, because when you say there's a community clash, there must be two communities involved. And there must be casualties on both sides, or some sort of, you know, imbalance in the umbrella group. But in this case, people were sleeping. So how is it a clash? You know, we are blessed with a very, very fatal land in Jaws. And I will not run it from a theory that is a deliberate act to take over the land. There are complaints that there are illegal encroachments in lands in Jaws. There are green areas that I've been coached upon by people close to this place that this thing happened. There have been court cases and judgments concerning this. And nothing has been done by government to reclaim these lands. And I'm aware that there were attempts a couple of months ago in the last administration that when the process was going to come to bear, the government set up a tax force for city renewal, they called it then. And the tax force went, demolished houses in one part of the states. And when they were there, they were rebuffed by the people that illegally had appended spaces with weapons. And nothing has been done since then. So the theory of land grabbing is totally in place. I believe it absolutely. Okay. Before we go back to Commissioner for Information Plans to state Dan Manjang, Mr. Zoyong, I want you to also, you know, quickly share your views on, you know, an incident that took place a few weeks ago where there was reports of about 20 travelers that were murdered. Was that properly described? What I can tell you, it's the same thing you read or investigate as a journalist. I totally condemn the fact that people are traveling and this thing happens to them. But you see, I am also aware that, you know, there are times where passions are ignited. There are people who become collateral damages to things they know nothing about. And, you know, I'm aware that the day this thing happened, these people were going to bury, you know, the kids and kids that were killed by Fulani people because they are called Fulani people. And it just happened that these other people are Fulani who are passing through that route. It's a very bad coincidence. I totally condemn it. It's sort of a good thing. They are just victims of what they don't know anything about. All right. I wanted to go back to Dan Manjang, the Commissioner for Information Plans to state. Mr. Zoyong, kind of hold on. Mr. Manjang, can you still hear us? Yes, I'm with you. Okay, great. Mr. Zoyong has, of course, shared his views and also agrees with your narrative concerning the land grabbing perspective. But I want you to speak with regards to the Commissioner of Police in Plateau State and how, you know, he has also assisted, you know, in the recent times in helping solve this crisis. Yeah, well, it is not only the Commissioner of Police. The GOC Third Armoured Division has been up and doing. And the Inspector General of Police have been up and doing in this matter. And so the gentlemen are doing their best to make sure that we restore peace on the Plateau. They have their challenges like any other person would have. But we want to put it on record that even yesterday, the Commissioner of Police was with the people. He followed through, even to the government house where the corpses were deposited. He was there. He was talking to the communities, talking to the people trying to pacify them. And I can assure you we didn't have any casualty. We didn't have any incident. He allowed the people to vent their anger to be able to, so that they could calm down. And we thank God that there was no incident at the House of Assembly. There was no incident at government house that would escalate the situation beyond what it was. Under normal circumstances. So in other claims, you would have even caught further casualty, but the security agencies acted in the most professional manner that they should. And so we want to give kudos to them, even though there's much that they need to do to make sure that since they are occupying these territories for this community in Yelwanzangam, yesterday they were complaining that... Well, it seems we may have lost the commissioner for information there, Dan Manjang. Mr. Zoyong, can you still hear us? Yeah, I can hear you. Okay. Well, I'm going to go back to you now and also get your thoughts on the response of the governor of Plateau State, Simon Lalong. News reports say that he also has visited President Mahmoud Abouhari and given updates on the security situation in the state and also asked for assistance for internally displaced persons. But I want to get your view on his response as the Chief Security Officer of Plateau State. There's a place of governance and there's a place of people who are governed. There's a place of security and the place of civilians. The governor has his protocol speaking concerning issues of state and he has to be seen between being in charge. But I just want you to see this happening. And for the person that is having to agree whether it's happening properly or not, well, his message is brought to the president and I don't know the full content of the report. But from what I got out, he gave the government the present impression that no one has returned to just and unfortunately that's why he was there that this happened. So I don't know at what level he got his intelligence or estimates that gave him the the content of what he told the president. I'm aware that the government is doing its best to calm the situation. And like I mentioned yesterday, I said, and I heard you also ask Mr. Manjan about the coffee. Coffee is good, but coffee should not be good for certain people and those other people. It has to be a totality. You know, those that are at hinterlands, which is the center of attacks in Plata State are the people that need security more than those that in townships. They are there particular sports in town that if you put security people, crazy, we don't escalate. But the people that are vulnerable are those in the villages in the outskirts that these marauders go to with no security. So I don't know the definition of coffee. Is coffee just meant for people that live in town or particular places? Because this kind of happened when there was coffee. Also I keep saying there was coffee just behind the university of jobs. So the university community itself is us. You know, we all know that we heard that a lot of parents are removing their words from the university. You know, members, governments are thinking that was out of the university because of the exposure of the university to these communities. I think they should go on speaking the normal and make sure that there is a physical presence of security people to assure the people that we're here. Okay, hold on. Welcome back Mr. Manjang. Yes, I'm with you. All right. Mr. Zoyong believes that the curfew may not be enough. And you know, maybe if there was going to be a curfew, it should be centered on, you know, the communities where the East crisis is taking place, not just across the whole of the state or across the whole of just North. Mr. Manjang, is it in any way, you know, how does it feel knowing that as we are speaking currently, there's a possibility that there are still persons in just North and maybe other parts of the state that are heavily armed in some of those communities, maybe waiting for, you know, the next time that they can strike. What, you know, does that make you or how does that make you feel? And what would be your the steps that you would take if you were in positions to, you know, take action? Yeah, well, as a matter of fact, it is very sad whether we like it or not. There's proliferation of arms in the hands of people, people illegally owned weapons. It's a huge issue that has to be grappled with. There was a point in the life of this administration that we wanted to mop up those weapons and provide an amnesty. We gave a deadline. We could only retrieve part of a few of it. All I can say is that it is very sad that we will have this kind of situation. And like you did say, if I were in a position of this to handle this matter, the way we are going about it is the way I would also go about it. I will appeal to the sensibilities of the people. There are people, there are stakeholders that you need to sit down. Religious institutions have a responsibility. Religious leaders have a responsibility. Community leaders have a responsibility. And to a very large extent, we have to now change our style of talking to stakeholders. When you gather stakeholders in government house and you talk to them and you don't involve the people that perpetrate these acts, the youths that are full of energy, that are unemployed, that are doing these things, then you will not have done much. So what we are doing as a government is that we are telling community leaders, local government chairmen, councillors that they should cascade it down to the various communities because I believe that there is nobody that does not have the person that he listens to. And so we must go back to the drawing board and look at the issue disproportionately. And the target should be these youths that are causing this same. The other issue is to be able to reduce to the barest minimum the way they can get access to illicit drugs and things that they consume because there is no human being that is in his right senses that will go and commit this kind of heinous crisis. So we all have to put our hands on that. The coffee I had my brother David talking about it, we agree that there are issues that criminality is still being perpetrated under coffee. But him and me know with all sincerity that without the coffee it would have been a free for all fight and the situation would have been uncontrollable. They would have not had, just not today would have not had had probably Plato State. Without the coffee, the coffee has had to put people in check. The coffee has happened to be able to occupy. And that is what we are doing. If there's any, there's no body in the position of authority, including my brother David, that is happy about what is happening in Plato State right now. Free for all fights, you know, you know, paints a picture that there's fights on both sides, you know, to people clashing. But from what you know has been described in our conversation, it feels like it's just one side attacking the other. Mr. Zoyong, I'm coming back to you now. These communities that were previously attacked, do you have any information as to who currently occupies these communities? Is it still the, you know, the core indigents? Or is it, you know, maybe some of those who had attacked and have taken over these communities? I will give you information as, you know, spoke about the senator representing the Northern Zone. He had come out categorically clear to say that over 60 villages have been taken over by full-time herdsmen in the Northern Zone. And they are currently being occupied by them. Physical structures. So when people say these people are unknown, they are unknown. I don't know the definition of unknown. You know, the locations they have told these houses, they say geographical contiguity they're occupying. It's not hidden. It's not in mass. So it's a very straightforward answer. These people are known. Their locations are known. The structures are known. They are in particular places, especially in Barakiladi and Rium Luka Mountains. They are known. So it's a straightforward answer. Mr. Manjank, would you confirm that? As a matter of fact, we have always said that people that perpetrate, even the governor has collaborated to say that it is not, they are not ghosts. That they are not unknown. But we don't want to stereotype people because I can assure you that as a government, I have said it thanks to that number. Even when they are known, there's the enabling environment. Government has been able to put a bill and then it has been signed by its excellency into law until land grabbing. I've said it that this matter is about land grabbing. And I've said that the enabling law, you cannot even prosecute even when you know them. You cannot even prosecute when the enabling law is not there. But for government to have provided the enabling law for them to be prosecuted, people are now challenged to go ahead for the prosecution. They have the enabling law to be able to prosecute. It's not for government to continue to prosecute. What government needs to do, it has done by providing the enabling environment for people to prosecute. And like he did say, it's not for everything that happens. Human beings that perpetrate acts, they are not ghosts. The governor has said they are not ghosts that kill people. They should not be called unknown. There's no body that lives in a community that is not known. And if stranger elements come in, the community leaders should be able to know. There should be rules of engagement of living in a community. And government recognizes those rules of engagement. So this is where I have a challenge. One of the reasons that acts about the relationship with the commission of police in Plateau State. If you have that rapport, you have that relationship, you are saying that or you agree that these communities have been infiltrated. They know the new faces in the community. They know that these communities have been infiltrated by foreign elements. You don't want to stereotype them. And that is fine. But does this mean that the commission of police themselves also knows that these communities and the people who have perpetrated these crimes and killed indigents of Plateau State and just north are known and they are still in Plateau State and they are still in just north. But the commission of police cannot take action. Is that what you're saying? No, that is not what I am saying. That is not what I'm saying. I say they are being profiled. They are being prosecuted. It's not enough for the commission of police has to do his own. He is a gentleman, a fine gentleman that assisted this community, that assisted this state, that is up and doing. And it is until investigation is done, until they are prosecuted in law, they are presumed to be suspect until it is proved beyond reasonable doubt. So it takes beyond the commission of police. It takes, it is a holistic approach that has to be done. It's not to begin to cast as fashions on the commission of police at this moment. I would not do that. Well, he is currently heading the police in Plateau State. And if both of you agree that these elements are known, arrests have been made. I asked you earlier, and that's what the reason that I asked you earlier, if anybody has truly been prosecuted over time, from Joshua DiRietto, Jonah Zhang, to currently Simon Lalong, if there's anybody who has been truly prosecuted for these killings, and you weren't 100% affirmative that anybody, you even said that some people are arrested, they are found culpable, but their files disappear to Abu Jann. That's the end of the case. And so that's why I'm asking you now. So, yes, the commission of police is a fine gentleman, but he is aware from both of you, what both of you have said, that there's people who have committed these atrocities that are still in Plateau State, that are still in those communities, that have taken over the lands that they have chased people from. But he still has not taken any action. You know, you've said that they are still investigating, but from what we've seen in the past. Action has to be taken, has to be holistic. It's not only where his rights begin and end, that is where the rights of another person begins and end. He cannot go, the best he can do is to profile them, take them to court, and the courts to prosecute. And until somebody, we know the judicial system in this country, there is a case that has stayed in the Supreme Court for 22 years. We know the judicial system in this country. So what I'm saying is that it is holistic. But at any attempt, everybody has, the executive, the legislature, the judiciary, everybody has his own, has where his limits begin and terminate. So you cross boundaries and begin to say, you do the job of the other people. Absolutely. I want us to wrap up with Dave Zuyong. If you can, in 30 seconds, quickly also respond to my last questions before we go. What I will say here is that this program predates this presidential fundings. Like my brother said, Dan, when you speak of governments, you speak of governance as an entity. We make separation. We talk about three arms of government. There are supposed to be three arms working as a unit. And I'm aware that the only thing that has stopped this implementation of the white paper she spoke about is the political will. And who has the will, is the government. So I don't know if there's a difference in these governments. It's something that are documents that are literature have gone through that are very, if you read the content of white papers, they are supposed to have nipped this crisis. From the beginning, but it's the political will and who has the will. It is same government. Except we have a clerk or decision between the state and federal government and blame the federal government or the state government for doing the right thing. They will keep maruling. But like I said, these people are known. They are profiled. They know them. There are crises. You do not occupy my house. And I'm saying I'm profiling you. You come to my house, kill me, take over the house. And I report and I say they're profiling you. Why are you still living the house? It doesn't make sense to me. All right. Dave's a young. And of course, Dan Manjang, thank you both for sharing this morning with me and for, of course, being a part of the breakfast. Truly appreciate it. And that's where we wrap up the breakfast this morning. If you missed out on any of these conversations, remember to join us on at social media handles at plus TV Africa on Instagram and Facebook. Same with our YouTube channel at plus TV Africa lifestyle. I am a saugier of bomber.