 Thank you so much for staying with us. This is a way to fight for why in the morning is the program time for politics. Now we want to talk about the BBI and they use what you feel, what you take on the proposals if you have met it. Actually it is in the dailies if you could get your copy and try to go through it and see what you need to support or not to support. It's your opinion. No one will guide you down for the same. I'm speaking to young people here who have different takes on this BBI. I have Anita Ambai. She is a program coordinator at Young Women Leaders Connect. And also I'm speaking to John Wangai, chairman Kenya Interfaith Youth Council. Send us your comments or your concerns and reactions to all our social media platforms, Zoay254 channel on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram as well. Welcome to the broadcast. My name is Dereva Hilewi. Ladies and gentlemen, Karibuni Sana. BBI will be a report to be launched today having received by the president on Thursday and some support was drummed up in the Nyanza region. And now partly in Nairobi and Mount Kenya Kedogo today to be launched at bombers of Kenya. And I'm afraid we're not at the level of the president. I want to begin with you, Anita. What's your take on the current report that we have? Briefly. First of all, Hilary, let me thank you this morning for giving me the opportunity to hear my opinion as a youth. And let me start by saying that BBI is a constitutional imperative to seek peace, security and also to enhance the national cohesion of this country. Let me also add that improving governance to meet the expectation of Kenya is it is constitutional and just like every constitution in the world, amendments keep on happening. Great. And this strengthens the rule of law. This also depends on our constitutionalism. And this is definitely a step in the right direction. All right. John, how do you feel about the current report that we have? Thank you, Hilary, for hosting us here at such a pressure. Well, first let me say that just as the president said that the constitution of rigidity is not... It is not important as that. But at the current situation that we are in as a country, we understand that the economy has been damaged by the pandemic, the coronavirus pandemic. Our students, our children are at home. The schools have not yet opened. The small, micro, medium enterprises. A lot of them are shut down. Well, basically the economy is not doing well. So I think as a country, the priority at the moment should be how we can, you know, try to revamp back the economy. Before then we can talk of a constitution of amendments. Because if you look at the current constitution, the current constitution worldwide has been termed as one of the best progressive constitutions that we have as a country. And so, and even with the current constitution, we have not been able to implement even at least 70% of it because when you look, for example, at the... Well, we remember the current constitution basically has four main elements that it came with, that is the public participation, the bill of rights, independence of institution and separation of powers and evolution. At the moment when you look at things like the bill of rights, article 43 talks of economic and social rights. At the moment, as we speak, there are people who still sleep handy. Their children who cannot access the basic education. When you talk of devolution, we know at the moment the counties which have not yet received their money to pay workers, doctors and nurses and strike. So I think the priority is an issue at the moment. Let us first think on how we can revamp the economy and then the constitution amendments will come a bit later. Actually, you guys do know mejikoroga kwa sababu. Already you have said the piece. We can already tell the people I'm handling. Kuna mwenyata kina kuna mwenyanaata. So let's begin with you Anita. Why do you feel like the time is ripe for us to change our constitution and in favor of the young people? Well, Hilary, I would like to agree with my friend and good senator Wangai here that indeed this is a very miserable moment for Kenya. We've suffered a pandemic that has really ravaged our economy. There's a lot of helplessness in terms of unemployment. But then again, I feel like we are also dwelling on the dark aspects. For example, BBI is proposing the tax holiday for the youth businesses in Kenya. That is a great step towards ensuring that every youth who sets business in this country is able to be given a grace period of course setting up their businesses and making sure that they have enough returns before they can of course start paying back the tax. So these are very good recommendations with the BBI and this gives confidence for every youth of this country to set out businesses. I mean, this grace period of seven years allows a lot of confidence. Secondly, Hilary, there's also the establishment of the data and the technological hubs in villages that seeks to imitate the Taobao villages of China. I was reading an article this morning and I was really impressed that when you look at those villages in China, they have been able, through accessing internet for the youth, they were able to rake around $195 billion in 2018. So this means that when youth are given these favorable conditions, they are going to tap into the tech, they are going to tap in the e-commerce and they are going to empower themselves and of course realize economic prosperity and also inclusivity when it comes to economy. So these are very good things in the BBI and for the amendments. Just like I said, constitution is not, it is not a fixed thing. It keeps on undergoing metamorphosis. So I feel like time is right for us to adjust a few things and then after maybe five years, ten years, let's see how this works and then we can do a referendum. Just a quick one on overall change of the constitution. We are barely ten years after the promulgation of this constitution, 2010 constitution that we are using. We haven't even implemented fully the constitution that we want to amend. Why do we have to change and we haven't even implemented the same constitution? Well, I'll answer that question by, for example, give an example with the youth commission that has been widely proposed and I support that. For a very long time we've heard this, of course the National Youth Council that presents the matters of youth but clearly we've not had policy coherence towards what the National Youth Council stands for. So with the National Youth Commission that is being proposed by the BBI, it allows us to mainstream youth development projects be it maybe in agriculture, maybe in trade, in industry and this allows youth to be entrenched in the real constitution and through this we can be able to honestly, I think have a world outreach instead of, for example, constraining youth in the ministry of youth agenda and public service. This youth get more opportunities in that guided by the constitution. Okay, enough. John, why do you feel like we shouldn't be amending the constitution at such a time? Yes, thank you Hilary. Yes, as I said that at this moment constitutional amendments, they are not part of our priority as a country story. And if I can maybe touch a ritual on what my good friend has said. That the amendments are proposing tax holiday for youth seven years tax holiday. These are things that clearly need a policy exchange or a legislative process. They don't necessarily need a referendum. We all know that the reason we are going for a referendum is to get the big boys positions that every Kenyan knows. But now because they have to entice the youth, they have to come up with things like a tax waiver or a grace period of help. These are things I mean, these things can be done administratively by a policy or a legislative process. When you talk of the incubation centers that has been indicated in the reports, these are things that just one day the president can come and make an executive order. The CS in charge for trade can come up with such incubators. And at the moment we have seen that for example we have technical centers being built even to the constituents level. So I think these are not things that should be basically in a constitutional amendment proposal. When you talk of things like a grace period of four years for the help, if these people really care about the youth, what they should do first is to they should clear first all the debtors who have not paid the help fee. When you look at, for example, when they were campaigning, you saw them go to places like Western and they would help them, the Shuka Ken industry, they would waive all their areas. That is the same thing that they would do to people who have defaulted help fees because these people have not defaulted help fees by wanting to do it. It's lack of employment, I mean. When you talk of Article 55, it talks about the youth. And it says that the state shall ensure that the youth have access to employment, access to education, access to other basic facilities. And even as we talk about that, last year, late last year, we saw that the president appointed the former DIA MP, Mary Womboy, I think, to be the chairperson of the National Employment Authority, that was a strap in the youth's face. So clearly you can see these people have no good intentions for the youth because National Employment Authority is the one that is supposed to ensure that the youth have employment just as it has been tried in the youth commission. So clearly you see that these are sweeteners which are meant to entice the youth to support the document. But the big boys can have positions. When you look at something like in the bill, the youth commission that they are talking about, the youth commission that they are talking about, already we have the National Youth Council. We have the NYC Act. We already made the proposals to amend the Act and it has already been passed in assembly. So what we need basically is political goodwill. So at the moment the NYC is not being funded properly and so it cannot run its functions well. Number two, the youth was supposed to elect representative to the National Youth Council. But the same process has been over the time been frustrated by the same minister because at the moment we came up after a public participation, we came up with a good election guidance and what was remaining was the CS, that CS Mosheru to gazet the guidance, just gazetment of the guidance so that now the youth can elect the representative. So you see that is a continual frustration of the youth. But now they have to entize us with such sweeteners which can be amended by either policy or registration process. It does not necessitate a referendum. You have immediately spoken of the position and I'm like is it not possible for a young person to become the president and the deputy and the prime minister? Can't we have those positions if it is for them because now we are thinking it is for the big boys. Now can't we have even young people who will benefit from the positions once they have been created? I want him to respond on that and maybe you will weigh in because he has argued they want the position. Of course currently we can tell who is there. We can predict but usually it's an allegation because it's a constitution that will be in the constitution moving forward if it will pass. Don't we have young people who will become the president and the deputy and the prime minister and the deputy is of course the position we are speaking of. Will we have young people? Thank you Hilali. I totally agree with you that the youth needs to dream big. That when you read a book by a person I like so much he wrote a book called The Restured of the Earth and he says that each generation must rise out of its obscurity discover its mission and either fulfill it or betray it. When we come in our country our forefathers who we celebrated last week during the Mashvijade fought for independence. The young tax fought for the second liberation also called the multipathism repeating of the section 2. Then the likes of the former CJ Mutunga and Prof. Kibwana fought for the climate for the constitution which began in 1990s and a lot of brands were shared people lost lives, properties were destroyed so that we can enjoy the fundamental rights and freedoms that we are enjoying with this constitution. And this generation of ours now I keep asking ourselves how we will be remembered by our children and God children I think it's a good idea to dream big but we know that our presidential election in this country cost not less than 50 billion I don't know how many youth can afford such even if we are 70% of the population even if we decide literally to front you and do for you fundraising we cannot even reach half of the 50 billion so I think it's a good idea but at the moment we clearly know that because they are the people with the resources they are just interested with the position for the big boys when you look at that document it would be wise for the frame as the 14 member task force committee to indicate to specifically indicate that the position of the deputy prime minister will go to a youth that the position of the deputy prime minister will go to a woman to support gender actually I am one of the petitioners who wrote to CJ Maraga to advise president to dissolve parliament and we are waiting for the president to dissolve parliament when you talk about gender they have clearly indicated that a governor should get a deputy governor of the opposite gender but when you look at the big boys table that one has been left vacant so I think what we should do immediately after the launch they should come back again to the people on Machuja the president in his remarks he said that just as the deputy president had said that we need a robust national conversation let us have a robust national conversation bring everyone to the table let us have our views let us look at the draft document so that now we can come up with a final document which will maybe bring a consensus we don't need to go to a to polarize the country again and it has you way into that particular statement of the positions you have heard of the reasons as to why it doesn't work the BBI please tell me you have something to tell us why you should be thinking otherwise absolutely so first of all I think I've got a few issues to clarify first the issue of the costing of the BBI process has not yet been done but as as a step of good faith I believe at the end of the 11th parliament the MPs can probably take a cost and also it's also good to know that the CSC is also on that cycle so you of course it's doing its evaluation and this was of course the best time to bring the cost of everything down so so far BBI has not been accosted secondly what I would like to say is that still weighing on the issue of why amendments are very critical well speaking as you then speaking on behalf of women I would also like to highlight on governance this structure gives more voice the BBI report of course gives more structure in terms of wider variety of persons of course in the talent in the current pool of the suggested the BBI report gives a balanced aspect to the governance pair for example we have we for example if maybe a CS is a politician we are going to have a PS as a technocrat of course means that it is going to be a more balanced opinion and this cocktail is going to of course lead to a better governance secondly Hilary allow me to highlight on of course the aspect of gender equality which I am really passionate about in the 11th parliament we saw that it was not possible the MPs could not pass to this gender rule with the BBI report it is giving very clear recommendations that allow women to take more governance basis this is a step in the right direction and this also means that if the BBI of course report sells through for the very first time in 60 years we are likely to see a woman candidate I mean a woman descent to the highest office on land which is a step in the right direction but that may depend with the populars because we are the electorates we know the dispensation of our people and we know how we will vote do you think we will be convinced enough as a people to vote for a woman as a president oh yes the structures are very clear and I believe the drumming for support is going to be enough to convince us why we should of course elect more women in office but then again I would also like to go to the common common recommendations that is telling the youth to read the document let them get to understand what it is all about let us have conversation around it and let us decide so this is not like the final it is just the start coming up to the process and I am sure we are going to make the best decision towards this but it is definitely a step in the right direction to write on that a little bit I say I second what she has said that this is a process no no no what I am saying is what she has said that this document is not custom that you need to be amended so that we can fine tune and come up maybe with a document that reflects the youth of the people ya you know when you look for example at the issue of gender I am also very passionate about gender equality and parity we need these big seeds to be clearly indicated when you have a president who is a male the deputy president should be a female clearly indicated like they have indicated the governor they are saying that if you are vying for a governor the deputy governor should be a female on the opposite when you talk about the deputy prime minister this one should be a youth I think as a youth we should lead these documents so badly we should not just be doing to support it because of help, waivers, grace period incubation centers these are things that can be amended having good will from the political leaders we can have a grace period for help the help CEO can decry today if random for that we can have incubators put in the budget constructed but before we support this document let us first ensure that we have a substantive our substantive agenda has been highlighted in the document if we have the deputy prime minister two of them there are those positions before the youth when you look with the youth I don't know what the problem is basically when you see yesterday people living with disabilities read by maora they clearly gave reservations on the same and they said that if you are not giving us a number of css to be clearly indicated we are not supporting this document and we will allow over 5 million members to reject it out but I support what was said that the document is not custom stone let us bring it to the people let us see what were made because at the moment we are being told nobody can stop rege so I think that is not the narrative this is not rege this needs a robust national conversation do you think we need the grace period to pay our help or we need jobs because you are supporting I think we need both we need a grace period of course to pay our help and before that of course you also need jobs that will give us the finance then I will ask you how long does it take for a common young person to get a job after graduating well it depends I have seen youth who have started who have done very well in terms of others have gone to public service others are in private sector others have managed to start their own business but I think the grace period forms a unifying factor in terms of it gives us time to you know wallow a little bit so in your own opinion it's fair to everyone it is fair to everyone it's definitely fair to everyone okay I know people who have waited long enough to get these positions and then there was also incubation like he was mentioning you spoke of the tax actually I was looking for the 25th tax something I'm forgetting I had seen it yesterday so I've lost it here you have been supporting because of the youth and there's another proposal I want to read it for you which is employment in the public service and of course you know these are the areas when we speak of the ill and the pandemic in the country that corona has come and I think corona will go but the other one I don't know whether it will go this is corruption now Kenyans will give their views on the matter field that the employment in the public service is not sufficiently inclusive different sections including young people women those living with disability and imaginary communities feel that they are excluded this could be true you don't want the BBI but there's something that is saying the wolf over the youth sorry you don't want the BBI you feeling it is not okay right now but there's a proposal that wolf over the young people in terms of employability especially being employed in the public service in the public service yeah how then don't you want to support it kuna vituze na feva you rather than such as the tax and the help what I have said and I want to reiterate and the current laws that we have are sufficient to ensure that the youth get jobs the youth get favorable opportunities what we need is goodwill from the political class and the leaders for example the issue of the grace period the help grace period that one don't need don't necessitate a referendum and when you look at article 255 for the constitution it clarifies what can necessitate a referendum that includes changing the structure of government changing the structure of devolution changing the bureau of rights and you know the others but things like help grace period that does not necessitate a referendum that one does not necessitate a referendum these people are making these things look like a total joke how can you put an incubation center in a national draft like that one when you talk of a public service commission public service commission at the moment actually there is a petition before the national assembly over the same because very many people apply for those jobs they take years and years before they can even be shortlisted there was a proposal by the government that they will be having interns that one they took the first cohort they took the second cohort the first cohort I think has never been paid up to today the second cohort from when they were called to Kasarani I think that program made them there so what we need COVID-19 came COVID-19 how many? COVID-19 with COVID-19 maybe that one could be a disadvantage on the same but what I'm saying is that we have enough laws what we need is to imprimand the laws and also goodwill from the political class and the readers for example when you look at the other amendment they are proposing that 5% of the counties of course I support the evolution I'm one of the biggest fan of the evolution but article 2 or 3 clause 2 says that you can take to the counties at least 15% they have set the minimum at 15% so there is nothing that bars the president to take 40 or 50% so we don't need that if random to change that one what we need is goodwill and imprimanding the laws that we have maybe to highlight on something very briefly I would like to say that the public service has actually done a very good job in terms of creating paid internships for the youth because I know of very many cohorts that have been you know, absorbed by the public service others have finished their internships for one year and it's actually a paid internship so the public service is indeed working its talk and I like the fact that the BBA report still emphasizes on the of course continuity of the same and the sustainability of the same and maybe probably as I conclude I would like to say that the BBA report provides a chance for Kenya to of course enact ambitious reforms and this is going to help us realize you know national cohesion we've had very deep seated issues as a country in terms of of course we have a lot of ethnic tensions because other tribes have felt like they have been neglected but for the BBA it ensures that everyone, every community feels included in this country it is also chat affa towards of course a more sustainable development and an inclusive Kenya where by everyone feels that they belong the part of the country and they also contributing to of course national goal when you speak of inclusivity you speaking in regards to leadership and of course before we began this broadcast I gave you a snippet of what has been proposed here and you seem to be disagreeing or knowing what they meant because like I told you one could be favoured because of the other or another person could be favoured and you would be left out do you think this current proposal favours the young people to get those positions the policies that have been put in place will they allow a young person to become a leader even even if it means to be the prime minister the current report that we have is it proposing a young person can be employed assuming you have all the education you need they call for governance someone has this level of education do we need other things like experience appointed to be a prime minister because this year we have seen there are young people how about if we get to the prime minister will they call for the experience okay first of all Hilary this is very realistic and secondly the BBA report proposes for a more wide structure and of course more openings as how young people can actively participate secondly when you asked about a young person being a prime minister these positions also need a level of experience you need to know what has been happening many years old and I want to be an MP I mean that's nonsense you need to have of course have certain qualifications have certain experiences because I believe as leaders we also need experience you also need to give you time to experience and I think that folds in very well in terms of how well you're able to lead people on how well mature you are so again I repeat that this is a very solid plan to open up the governance space in terms for women and youth and it's definitely less rigid as we've you've had before I asked that question because I know of a young person who is going for the presidency he's very young he tried it once but he's still going for it again and the question of experience and the wisdom to lead the country will come in and then the young people are saying meaning even at this point the young people will not vote for their own because of the experience and the wisdom to add on that yes I support that and that is one basically one of my the reason why I think even the PSC is faring the youth because when you look at the dailies you'll see PSC advertising for a number of jobs some of the requirements are huge experiences which are used basically that 5 years and below cannot have the same the second point I want to talk about is inclusivity the inclusion that we are talking about in the BBI report I remember in 2018 I did present before the committee of task force and yes I supported inclusivity but the kind of narrative that is being driven is not what I supported people are talking of tribes in government but Kenya having around 4 tribes you cannot accommodate everyone in the big structure so the inclusivity that I supported when I was making my presentation is including women including the youth the people with disabilities people from the marginalized communities that is the kind of inclusion that we need as a country number 2, number 3 again why I am saying that what we need is goodwill and implementing the laws that we have look at the appointments that we have at the moment if at the moment we don't have appointments which look at factors like tribe look at factors like gender look at factors like religion for example when you look at the cabinet the cabinet is not is not in full compliance with the two dance gender so if we are not doing such small things why do we need again the BBI we need first to implement the same again when you talk of my reservations with this document called the BBI report you will see that it creates a very powerful precedent and this is taking us sincere speaking this is taking us back to where we are from and that is not what the drafters of the constitution led by the late Kitonga he is so less in peace the envisions as a situation whereby the president will be like a unifying figure but the BBI proposes a more powerful imperial president and when you look at again what they are creating the issue of independence of institution and separation of powers that one has been disbanded when you look at it they have introduced a judicial boonsman that is the person appointed by the president this is the person who will be checking the judges that is why we go wrong because at one point or the other we will find ourselves in the judiciary and without the independence we will not be able to and let us just look at this document let us read it to somebody let them come again back to the ground let people participate let everyone be included and let us come with a very robust document which have views of 45 million Kenyans not a few couple of people alright now I need in this jalo kufika bumas your final recommendations thank you thank you Hilary for being so kind to that maybe my final words would be this and I'm now speaking on behalf of youth and women of this country I like the fact that the BBI report specifically provides for it's got the basic amendment act that allows provision of sanitary products to all the learning institutions of this country currently I've been carrying a lot of campaigns in different counties especially during this period of COVID-19 we have seen a surge of pregnancies early marriages the FGM we've been really of course taking our energy towards that and that means that with this act it allows for protection of children women and girls and this going to be more funding to protect this vulnerable group of people so any women of this country watching this BBI report has got your best interest at heart and for the first time you've had this issues clearly articulated in this report so this is a step towards the right direction in that our gender affairs are being taken very seriously and this topic being very close to my heart I think this is the right direction towards this however just like just to echo my one guys what's here I ask everyone to read the document let them understand let them ask question let them see what let them tear everything bit to bit before they can definitely support the document so we are convinced but we like what has been expressed by the report it is a good thing for Kenya and it is a critical moment that our constitution is going through a metamorphosis and we welcome the changes alright thank you Anita John thank you Hila for hosting us here again let me say that I still insist that Kenya is not yet ready for a constitution amendment let us implement the laws that we have over the years we have had commissions reports we have had a regular report Tendomo report Dawaki report to AGLC report they have not been implemented let us implement them first and then now we can come to BBI report later if time allows us let us first implement the laws and reports that we have and then maybe you can think on that also number two that this report has a lot of sweetness to attract so that we can support the BBI for example the MCAs have been have been added something called the one development fund and you know when you hear of the one development fund you may think it is such big big you know development oriented but when I come to when I came to read that one development fund that is why just like senator said we let us read the document let us not say that someone has read the document for me and so it is well when you talk of the one development fund they are saying that is 5% of the revenue collected by the county so for example with this covid and this is a much rights county you can imagine the revenue that they collect get 5% of that divide among the counties you will realize that there are some some of the words will get even 10,000 for development so there has been a lot of sweetness to entize that to support it but the main agenda is to create positions for the big boys so me personally John Wongai and the council each chair of the interface youth council and among other religious sectors we are totally against the amendment bill as it is and if it is not casting stone we may rethink our decision let us involve all Kenyans just as the constitution says at content public participation let us involve the 45 million Kenyans then we can chat the effort for this country because the kind of trend that we have is just a few people who are setting the trend for this country let us involve everyone because everyone's views and opinions matters in this country there is no big or small person we allow ego before the law alright thank you so much so much we are done here and back home thank you so much for keeping us company and the views and issues brought out in this program do not represent my opinion or that of Y254 TV they remain solely for my panelist they have their own opinion and back home I know you have yours as well they have been my guest Anitambaya she is the program coordinator young women's leaders connect and John Mwangaisori chairman Kenya interfaith youth council thank you so much ladies and gentlemen for coming and I am hoping it will go your way otherwise thank you so much back home for keeping us company we will be back up next with the career discussion keep it Y254 my name is Dereva Hillavi good morning