 A system that at least civilians could not have been developed or thought of better than by Mr. Olive in 1984 to talk about the Chinese social system, a state system that surveils and wants to control the behavior of its citizens. Chinese is still a big part of the world and it's a question how long it will take until something similar is available in Europe or is happening in Europe. So first, a cartograph who lived for four years in China and he looks at the system for four years now. He wrote a browser here from Digital Courage and will look at the Chinese Bonetary system. Hi, I'm looking forward to the guest. Our second guest is Tilo Beicher, a talk at the Big Brother Awards from Digital Courage. And he's also looking at data protection services from 1980s. He was responsible for data security in a German state. Hello, welcome. And the third person you know, he is also part of Digital Courage. He talks to the German government and tries to create and wrote decision finding help for the new coalition in Germany. So what is this social credit system in China? How did you notice that subject? The other way around, I'll first answer the first question I read about it during my time in Shanghai and got stuck to it. Such a huge construct that's planned here, that wants to insert itself into all spheres of our lives. I want to know more about that and I looked more into it and now I'm sitting here and I'm allowed to talk to you. To get on this level ground, if I were to say everything that can be known, it would take much too long. So I'll tell you in a short way how this happens. I don't have any slides because that would take too long. I have a couple of notes in front of me, so if I look down, that's because I don't want to forget anything. The current situation in China is that it wants to be from social systems instead there is a lot of crime, especially in the production area. Usually without having usable fines. The user of the Internet also should support the Xi Jinping and the solution that's provided by the President is that every user, every person in China should get a bonus score based on their trustworthiness and creditworthiness so that neighbors, that your business partners and basically all people you have a relationship with can check on your score. So what you have today is that there is not just one social credit system, but there are dozens of different concepts and dozens of different cities that are being tried out right now. In 2014, this was implemented for the first time in a test phase until 2020. So right now we have the situation, there are a number of different subjects and there was a test phase to 2020 and they are now analyzing the different systems from different towns and we are now surprised or looking forward to see what the true solution is that is supposed to be developed in the whole country. The concept is quite easy and the question is how much can we trust a person? We collect all data of that person, all available data they can get, offline behavior, online behavior, especially the online behavior, how you visit Taobao, the Chinese equivalent of eBay, GPS data from smartphones are collected, the memberships, youths, everything that's available and along the way there is significant data protection laws in China, however they are usually not enforced that much, so that's not something anybody cares about. Offline behavior, government agencies, all data is collected in a quite large cloud, all data about every person and in addition new developments are used, video surveillance for example, speech recognition, face recognition and even gate recognition software, all data is used to collect data and connect that data with a specific person, rubbish, care, driving too fast because we want to know which person perpetrates a specific act, all data is collected in real time and it's an algorithm we basically know nothing about analyzed and there is behavior that's desired and we have undesired behavior. Public behavior, for example taking care of your parents or participate in the society, they all lead to plus points but however there are also negative points if you don't stick to laws and similar, that leads to negative points, they all are put on a digital account for everybody, then if you have a very high counter state then you have privileges, for example a free card for the library, you don't have to pay down payments for something, if you have a low point state there are significant sanctions that are put on to you, you get no first class tickets in the train and you have to take the wood class and so on and it gets worse and worse so at the end you can't travel at all, you don't get permission to visit a broad, you can't buy flight tickets and even your own children might not be allowed to visit schools anymore or certain, so the aim of that is that the people or the citizens are re-educated towards a better behavior. I want to share a couple of criticisms, there are a couple of technical difficulties with the system, I don't know enough technically and it would be too much for this talk but there are social problems, there are difficulties for the management, social and ethical problems are following, it should promote good behavior, who decides what good behavior is and already we have a problem here, the social credit system currently several rounds, they are officially supported by Tencent Alibaba the tech companies but only officially, unofficially the communist party reserves the rights to change things in the system even retrospectively so unwanted behavior can be changed, if the communist party wants to change something as unwanted behavior then today you're still going to get punished for their behavior yesterday, tomorrow things behavior is going to get punished even though today it's absolutely legal, this whole thing is the persecution of minorities whether that be homosexuals or other minorities are being done through this and this is something that we are focusing on, also the algorithm is being pushed, the communist party and all the providers are the, they say that everybody is responsible for their own behavior, behave accordingly and then you have nothing to fear, this is also something that is debatable because the system is made by humans and humans are adjusting the system, another point is solidarity, human behavior, social context everything is being lost because people are not acting because out of community because they are only acting to gain points, so the moral thing, muscle is being lost and if others are taking away the rational and this makes it really difficult, if the system is once being stopped then we don't even have a codex for how to act, so this is a challenge for the management, I'm soon finished, so it's about preventing misuse so that those who are managing the system they set it up so that it's acceptable and also hacker attacks also have to be dealt with, this is a completely new law basis, legal basis has to be put forth for this to be transparent, this is also a big problem, this algorithm is absolutely not transparent, people don't know why they have the current score that they have, so in this case, this context, we have some things that we have to talk about, I just want to recommend shortly a video, I know that I've mentioned a lot of things, but Antonia Maiti from the university of Duisburg, she was here three years ago, she done a video about the social credit system, she talked about this in length, so that's a recommendation, or if someone's more into reading this small brochure here that I've written with journalistic support, I want to recommend that, thanks, so far, so thank you this sounds very scary, you said that in China, so this is happening in China, so is there anything like a grassroots movement against that, so no, there's nothing as powerful that it could change things actually, because the unhappiness in the people, it's there, a lot of people are very unhappy, it's been there for quite a while, there were hundreds every day, hundreds demonstrations every day, protests every day about that, but most of them we don't even see here of this protest, so the people are unhappy about that, but everything will be destroyed by the government, so social credit systems, this term was quite confusing for me because it sounds good and social sounds good, credit is okay, it's the same idea with credit worthiness systems in Germany, so we have this credit worthiness systems like Schufa or others, so what's the difference between these German credit worthiness systems and the social credit system in China, so there are a lot of things that are similar, but there are also a couple of different systems, so the differences are important here, so first I need information there, so I was in Shanghai in 2015 on invitation of the Friedrich Ebert Stiften and I was invited to talk about Schufa and about other credit worthiness systems to talk about them and make a comparison to the Chinese systems there and in particular, can we get exceptions for a system in China, for a system that's accepted in Germany, so I got a couple of insights into the Chinese system, so what's getting published is quite different to what has been made available to me in China there and information, so I was able to look into a couple of things, but it was next impossible to get some hard facts there, some details there, there's one huge difference which and so we saw this in the talks, the channels, so I was talking a lot about citizen rights and people's rights and there was no feedback from there as well, so no one reacted on that, so there are a lot of people's rights worldwide, like privacy, data protection, the European Charter of Fundamental Rights and similar basic fundamental rights and these fundamental rights, you can sue for that, you can go to a court and demand that fundamental rights are, that your fundamental rights are being kept and so, well in general, this is possible in China, so for example, there's China also has data protection laws which are getting, but they are not checked against, they are not checked on balances when the police use them and in particular they are not no checks on balances if the Communist Party is looking into private data there, so there's an absolute taboo in limiting the capabilities of the Communist Party into that data, so we have also something that's in our fundamental rights is that data that's only allowed to use data for some particular defined purpose and it's not allowed to use them for any other purposes except there is some legal foundation for that, some explicit legal foundation to use data in other ways and this is something, so for example, if credit data, consumer data, traffic behavioral data, limits the exchange there towards the police and so China has this general idea that it's that this binding to a certain purpose does not need to happen, so for example, the German high court, the European high court are pretty much behind this in Germany and in Europe about not breaking those, but this kind of transparency that we have here and that these court demand so that citizens in Germany in Europe can see, can understand how their data is being used, so I think that there's a huge difference between how we handle these databases and China handles those, but what happens in Europe, in Germany as well, is that we have artificial intelligence, machine learning, we have these algorithms and this changed a lot of things, so the European high court made a decision regarding Shufa and the Shufa, the German Shufa is allowed to treat their algorithm, their way as a trade secret, which means that data protection authorities, regulation authorities were not even able to look into the algorithms, into this court from Shufa and audit them due to that, so whether this will change in the future, we'll see, so the European Commission made a proposition for AI artificial intelligence set of rules that with the scoring method is being used and they demand that transparency is being created, for example, in artificial intelligence in advertising, which is considered less perth of a than, for example, using artificial AI and police or at credit scoring and so this which is a quite a central point here in this set of relations, so all algorithms, all parts where artificial intelligence is being used and where it has existential consequences for people, which is what happens a lot in China here, so that the extent of threat of the existential impact there, so for example Shufa score in Germany, so if you have a better Shufa score and it is not transparent to you, so you're not getting a mobile plan, you're not getting a job, you're not getting credits, you can't shop online, so there are a lot of impact, there are a lot of consequences that a Shufa score can have in Germany, so this is a big problem in Germany as well and in Europe, in Germany, so a lot of organizations, police organizations and intelligence services want to have a look at this data, they want to get this, all of this data and which is a lot more than it's actually being allowed right now, so in Poland, for example, the data from the economic life of people is being used, but in addition, internet activities are used and this is used to estimate the credit worthiness of people in Poland, which is not even allowed in Germany and vice versa, Shufa is allowed to look at the place where you live and your local environment, so if all of your neighbors are considered poor, you are also considered to have a low credit worthiness there. This also has the consequence that when I was living in a different area, I had a very bad score at the Shufa, this change now after I moved into the inner city in Kyiv, this shows that the problem is still existent, the problem of transparency and we are really in a new situation because companies like Shufa and Credit Reform and many others, Universal, all these credit worthiness companies, they are looking for all kinds of data and the Shufa, for example, is very famous for that they use data from illicit sources, there was public resistance and that's not really existent in China. This is actually important to not have such big consequences from these algorithms and stop that. Thank you, this was a big insight in Germany here, it's not that credit worthiness, not personal data is being used, not directly private data, but we also have other kinds of surveillance like from, for example, the cameras at the Berliner train station, Südkreuz, all kinds of surveillance, what's possible or impossible for this Chinese surveillance system for in a whole or in parts to have this in Germany, I hope that this is not possible, we are all hoping that this is not possible. There's a lot of people in Germany, they have no problem that everybody else is being surveilled, this is not clear to many that they might also be surveilled, I find it interesting on a psychological faculty how people let this do to themselves, how people get this attitude that they say that it's right that other people are being shamed or put down. When I had a seminar, I said, well, we want that before in front of a kindergarten more traffic cameras should be put up and people don't realize that they are the ones that drive too fast to bring their children to the kindergarten. We should make a think about how can we bring our sick neighbors to fight for freedom. I don't want to become a grown up, so I'm like a grown up. I don't want something bad. I don't want my fingerprints to be taken. I don't want to be in a credit worthiness system. And I don't want to take part in that. And when people realize that this is a political demand, that we need to try to enforce. And I can only enforce that when I talk to my MPs, if I help them, if I support them, and we need to put pressure, put them under pressure. And I simply have to discuss with them. Because once again, one of our politicians says, we want to do more surveillance, more safety, security. I, for example, found out that most of the most of the things in the last 30 years, I work in the sector of security. And then there have been ridiculous demands. They just want security theater. This only works during campaigns. And it's good that we are one of the safest countries in the world. But when it's really about the real safety, for example, departments of health, so that we give them enough resources so they can fight the pandemic, we have a lot to do that things that are really simple things. For example, they think that we can put cameras everywhere and charge a lot of money and put tax dollars into private hands, but the necessary IT and the proper concept. And, for example, the proper things are not done. And that's more complicated. And I think we need to think how can we act politically to organize. I want to work on that. Digital courage is an organization. And if I don't have time for that, to do a different job, then I need to support it. But this doesn't stop me at least once a month to do something that's politically correct, to go to an event to talk to my MPs, to listen, and also to get involved. Thank you, Paladu. I would like to forward to the chat where there are a lot of questions about China and the social scoring system. Okay, first of all, really interesting talk. Most of us are really interested, so there are a lot of questions. How strong are the results or the scoring system on non-Chinese organizations, companies, or universities? All individuals and companies who exist in the People's Republic of China are already traced by this. So for a long time, nobody talked about whether non-Chinese people would also get a point system or should also get a point system and also sanctioned. And nowadays, there is a decision. Yes, of course, everybody who comes to China is part of the system. And that's also true for companies. What about Chinese people who are abroad? As far as I know, they are only covered or injected by that when data can be collected within the People's Republic of China. But if you want to travel abroad, that's also part of the credit store. So it's quite hard to collect data abroad by Secret Service and so on. But all the data that is available is used. And as long as you're in China, it's an important question whether you're allowed to travel abroad. Sometimes even travels within China are a question of whether there's a sufficient score. How's that accepted by the Chinese people? In the beginning, there was no data about that. Nobody talked about it. And then people noticed that around 80% of the people in China approved of it. And I don't know how many people are part of the system and how many people are asked. There was a study about that. And she also said that people who are in the system who perhaps are not very truthful because they know if they talk truthfully they get negative points. So are there movements against the credit, social credit storing? Yes, there are people who want to move against it. There are people on black lists who there are people on black lists and they want to try to work against it because before people who are on the black list never get down. So to get removed from that list, it's quite difficult. So is there a possibility, next question, is there a possibility to hack or to buy people to get from this pet square? So there's another question that management has to look into. So there have been some newswire articles that there have been a couple of scandals at the Coruscantin police organization that there have been some case of co-action that people paid money to distribute power and stuff. So this is something that the management has to look at. So other information, how the people working at the companies implementing this course are thinking about this. So I know that a few people are very high in management, saying that we're doing this for the people. So if the people know who they are talking, where everybody is talking to and how they work with, this will improve our society. So this will have positive impact on the society. But many of those are, so there are a couple of people who are not hired to work on that one for reasons. So if you're looking at this, you say there are a couple of cons to the system, but do we have any pros here? So I want to add something to the acceptance of the Chinese people. So in this discussion on the Chinese people, so these have been just official professors at the panels. So they always tell me that you folks in Germany, you have a completely different culture. You have this fundamental rights and an out-clearance. And we have confused so we are a much more collectivist and you are much more individualism. So they say that people in Europe stick to the rules voluntarily, whereas we in China, we have to really surveil people to make sure they stick to the rules. So whether this is true or not, it's very hard to check of course, especially since no one is giving Chinese people to this amount of freedom. And the demand for freedom, the desire to have freedom, is much harder to monitor in China. So it's quite exciting to see how the Chinese people is processing this data and looking at the systemic management of their people in Hong Kong, exciting in a negative sense. So it's exciting to see how they built this up in Hong Kong as well, so that the people in Hong Kong, the citizens of Hong Kong, how they will cope with these new rules, new set of surveillance. So another question, is it like too far that you can have a look at your own score or is the score a secret? So yes, so it's possible to have a look at your score, even have to look at the score of the current day. The problem is that everybody else can do that. And so with companies you may understand the score of a company. So you can check whether this, again, as a customer use, you can make sense to check whether a company is valid or trustworthy. But with individuals, with people, this is quite a problem. Because if you see that someone has a bad score, and that person doesn't necessarily be, it doesn't necessarily be the fault of that people. So this is actually a problem. So a big problem is where people working for German companies, German citizens, have bad scores. So Collier, do you know whether there has been any analysis of how people working for German companies are working here? Do German companies accept these law infirmary and accept that their employees are being tracked there? Or is there some resistance from these German companies there? So what is important? So it should be important for German companies, what happens to their employees, because they are liable for the well-being and the safety and security of their companies. Yes, so it is indeed the case that German companies, who are especially those who are there for quite a while now, have to lose their license to be in company. So even new companies, starting in China, say, this is such a huge market. And we just have to be there. So we have to stick to these rules. And we have to agree to these rules, whether we think they are a good idea or not, or whether they would be linked in Germany or not. So there's a different question for these companies. What differences does make, which country you come from? Germans, for example, differently requested than Americans. I don't have any information on that. How is this about party representatives or a higher position in the government? Are they also given a score? This is a good question. We don't know, for example, whether Xi Jinping also has a score. Of course, if something's asked, it's always been said that we are the folk of the people. But I don't know whether they have or other party representatives have a score. It should actually be the case. So about the party membership is pretty clear how this is being handled. We don't know for sure. But a person being a party member gives a lot of positive points. And unwanted behavior is also very much covered, which was, for example, with the tennis player that we have right now, that was also part of international debate. So this is also being corrected by the algorithm so that party members and representatives get away with it easily. So this would also mean that the score is not possible to be requested by these people. This is also already an expression. I did not try to request a score. It's also possible that all scores are possible to be respected. But it's possible that not all points are being shared so that you already get a bonus right from the start. Are party members more careful to get more points? Is this a possibility? I think in single cases, yes, there have been several interviews by people who said that we are careful to keep the points and we all look out for each other to behave accordingly. But of course, there are single cases. I don't think that the morals and that it can replace good education. So I'm sorry, but this discussion is very interesting. But we have to cut this short. Thank you a lot. I hope that listening and discussing was fun. So thank you for your support with the questions and bye till next time. Thank you.