 Thank you for staying with us on the breakfast on Plus TV Africa So finally we have Yamgul here in the studio He made it, let's happen to Yamgul this morning It doesn't sound like I was missing, missing person, missing adult I was about to put a flyer somewhere Well, I'm not late technically, first I know the late for church Now when he comes, I'm going to church this time So everybody that's on the school will do So let's just say that the match started And I'm here for the second half So I'll still do my bit as it is You still have a good time Well, very good morning to you and thanks for staying with us till this moment It's time now to take another very interesting topic Actually our first hot topic for the day And Serap have asked the World Bank to suspend loans to Nigeria's 36 States And we are glad to have with us here Barista Kolaouli or Luwa Dari The Deputy Director Serap Good morning and welcome to the program Good morning Let's just get this clear So that it doesn't become like a INEC issue, 36 States and Abuja You said the loans should not be given to the 36 States Is Abuja not in the free? Just start out Okay All right, now that we know that So how are you going to prosecute this case How are you trying to get this done Thank you very much This need not end up as another public interest situation Like we've always affirmed time and again The advocacy issues that we think of Advocacy on Transparency and Accountability Become matters of public interest litigation Because government and public institutions Will not throw the part of the rule of law And naturally as law abiding citizens We will end up in court And in this instance like we've always done I see no reason why this should become a subject of litigation It is merely a call to the World Bank To perform the statutory obligations to Nigeria as an equal partner In the committee of nations On the other hand, for the state government To also be responsible to obey the rule of law The various duties they owe to Nigeria I see no reason why this should be a subject of public interest litigation Is it that the World Bank would say That it doesn't mind how these loans That is granted to Nigerian states That have been spent Or would the government perhaps say That spending this huge sum of money Without being transparent And accountable to the people Sometimes some frivolities justify it I cannot see anything in fact of law Where this should end up in court And that's why ultimately Compatuals like this are important for citizens To own these as it were And to be able to co-bell Each of these public issues Just including the World Bank and its affinities To do the writing in these circumstances But what really informed you You're going to court because of this Because everybody will They will tell you The people who you are trying to stop Will tell you that everybody borrows Before you could do anything meaningful For your state or your country For that matter And then was it on the premise That you know that the six states Can sustain themselves With the right capacity to sustain themselves Without having to borrow Because if they cannot do that without borrowing Then it will make no sense This issue is not about borrowing In the strict sense It is actually a matter of expenditure That is the use of public funds No matter the source Of those public funds But in this instance for context We do know that the bulk Of the public expenditure So finance in Nigerian projects Really those of the states Are also borrowing Fark allocations Are not really being Not much and aggravated as it were Even so the fark allocations Are also source of borrowing And the idea of those states Are not doing as well as they should That now brings us to the issue Of the source of those loans And the duty and obligations That the World Bank All the Nigerian people Through the various conventions And treaties that Nigeria has ratified So for instance For the proper context of this conversation It is not wrong And we are not saying Government or the states In this instance should not borrow But that borrowing was done Within the context of the rule of law And there are various laws That guide both the borrowing And the spending Spending being the most important aspect In this conversation Because if we spend Invexing the inefficiently There should be no need to borrow And if you have to borrow You will be justified So in case of point We will be fiscal responsibility That provides clearly What the means of borrowing In fact, it mandates The federal government and the states To carry out a cost-benefit analysis Before any borrowing And that borrowing Should primarily be For the expenditure But how can you justify The purchase of over 400 million Pull-and-truth cards From the chief of staff In Lagos state In the midst of growing poverty Will you justify that? Or it's really well that The pop of those What's about Is justifying And the previous expenditures That we've seen Across the states Are indebted to the world bank And is affinate To not justify the reality Of the borrowings Particularly in the life Of the people And that's why we're calling On the world bank That's the responsible organization In this instance To ensure That they are transparent And are collaborative mechanisms And in this instance To give it To do what I do For it at the door To ensure that Those funds are being Juditiously spent With the present facts In the property domain As they are now Those funds Are being spent In free-for-loss In free-for-loss ways Including for Recurrent expenditures Payment of pensions To former governors In the deputy Payment of security votes And what not And the paper expenditure Sometimes are over-inflated We've seen in the case Of Lagos data Nearly all the states In the engineer Orchids A civil society Organization Released a report You can check it On their open-gov website You would see The details Of the budget Of each of these states And you would wonder What are these funds for And you would look At the growing level Of poverty in these states You cannot max the borrowing Even the basis Of the borrowing And development in these states Which is why In World Bank Asked to work Your life These responsibilities To ensure That in the county Who will ultimately Pay back these funds And not taking for a ride We've seen in the In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous In the previous త్వ్ల్నూటికొలంవార్స్నైగ్ంకిసంట్కొట్గ్ల్ర్. న్డివాంట్లిత్కె మోట్ల్ల్నో. ὤ្្蟶 ៻៻៱៑៉ ៴៻៼�washʋ៲-៳ក� Pastor ៻៷៱៭៸ក៱ ៱៱ẇ៬៸�官 ៷៸៱x ៸៻ ៸៼! ៸៸ Wheels � Balka ៸៸᲋៸ ៴YYaj ៸ar it is for the office of the chief of staff and not for the chief of staff himself so they can actually argue that they are using these monies that they get as loans fine I understand that we shouldn't borrow more than we're spending we should find a way to cut our costs however what if they argue with you and maybe we have like a litigation case whereby they are saying they are actually spending judiciously because you can say that this spending is frivolous but they can also argue that this spending is judicious since then we took two courts I will call one the court of public opinion and then the second will be the court primary of judiciary as the questioner has given the judiciary in our power now we want to see the governance they explain to their citizens some of the ends of course in the various budgets of the state which again makes this kind of conversations very important if people have access to these budgets and scrutinize the various budget lines these questions will be asked so why are these things happening in the government state because people can see now these government is pouring to the authorities to be justified under the face of great poverty 70% of the millions are poor so why can't you justify buying such a jeep that's for the office because of great poverty it's just not justified it's for the government that has sworn to less millions of dangers of poverty it's not justified it is really not justified if they can convince Sarah by the way these governments can convince the citizens of their state that this spending is in their interest it belongs to people and that is why if we go to court and don't forget the court represents the people that's why the court is called the last of the common man so on behalf of the people the court determines that these spending are justified but let's repeat we are bound by the view of the court in any regard because of public opinion like a major linear even Nigerians think that this spending is justified they don't say why this is not and you can see the reactions to those things that come out from the spending of the various states and people are angry people are calling for asking questions and they are here to see any public officer if they can justify this spending it just doesn't matter how can you spend two billion dollars to purchase rechargeable funds to the office of the deputy governor in a state where people are really poor where there are still bad rules where all of the schools most of the schools are low eventually we will have to wrap up here at this point because of time we would have loved to ask you so many other questions especially like how is the federal government connected to this case because we here 36 states and the federal government is borrowing even more than the states put together when they promise that they are not going to borrow and so many other things around it but we do hope that you get a win for this because it's the fight for the common man now we are not so sure that the courts are the last hope of the common man but we will still keep fighting and fighting all the time thank you so much Barista for coming on the show thank you thank you very much thanks on the opportunities we are talking with Barista Kola Wale Oluwadari deputy director at SERAP and we are going to take a short break and when we return we will be looking at COP 28 say with us