 Welcome back. It's still the breakfast and plus TV Africa set for a first major conversation. The socio-economic rights and accountability project has urged the chairman of the independent National Electro Commission Professor Mahmoud Yacoubou to urgently seek the appointment of an independent council to investigate allegations of electoral violence and other electoral offenses including bribery against state governors and their deputies during the just concluded election. Syrup also urged Yacoubou to promptly and effectively investigate reports of electoral violence and other electoral offenses committed during the general election and to identify suspected perpetrators and their sponsors and to show the effective prosecution regardless of their political status or affiliation. On the letter dated 25 March or 25th March, 2023 signed by Syrup's deputy director Kola Wale Loadari the organization said by allegedly engaging in electoral violence and other electoral offenses in so blatant fashion according in their words rather suspected perpetrators and their sponsors had clearly acted in violation of the constitutional provisions, international standards and of course the electoral act. There's quite a lot to talk about but glad to say joining us this morning to do justice to this call by Syrup. It's not other than Dr. Lo Mefo who is a media and political communication specialist. He joins us via phone from Abuja. Dr. Mefo good morning to you. Thank you very much for your time. Good morning Nigeria. Thank you very much. This this organization they've been doing quite a lot taking a lot of cases to court. I've lost count as to how many they're currently having court against the government and other agencies but this time it's a call on the independent national electoral commission to do something about the cases of electoral violence and offenses. Now this time they're asking the organization to seek a prosecution of governors and the deputy governors who have been involved or seem to be allegedly involved in electoral offenses. To you is this possible looking at you know the cover talking about immunity that the state governors enjoy? Yeah well the answer for me is yes and no. One is the electoral offenses are taking seriously you know the state would rise and deal with it. In learning psychology one way or the discouraging any behavior from recurring is to severely punish it. But there is a tendency in Nigeria. Political crimes are not really treated as crimes they are. You know because of the people behind them can see we're just talking about governors they are deputies who hide behind the facade of the immunity that they have. So get away with even more of that. We have it on record that there is a 2003 general election that has nearly a 37 Nigerians died. The records are there. And you can be sure that this is not the first. This is not the first. It's not going to be the last. Why is it so? It is because we haven't dealt with it in the past. Remember the electoral violence I think in 2007 up to 800 Nigerians died. 800. Nothing came out of it. So when you compare 800 Nigerians dying you know about a decade ago to the number we have now. Somebody maybe said that they you know it's not as mysterious as the two of them. And like I have said the problem is that we don't treat political crimes as crimes they are. The governors and the deputies can be investigated even though they may not be prosecuted. But you see in law the time does not run out on justice. Whatever they say between their immunity is not forever. When they leave office you deal with them. That is what ESCPC and ICPC try to do. Why can't police do the same? Why can't ESS do the same? Why can't this be prosecuted for the crimes they violates the perpetrated while in office? You recall recently the idea of police before the commencement of a different general election one time last year around November also he gave a press conference and they identified as many as 51 electoral violence or election political violence around the country and blamed accused the governor as the people sponsoring the IG at this level he has more information than we do. So what is he doing with the information? The IG ought to prosecute these people. So if they don't account for their action now you get their files ready for investigation so that as they leave office you drag them into court until you begin to commit some of these people to prison it will nothing will change. We will continue to tell the same story every election cycle the perpetrators of election violence in Nigeria what happened in this president election in Lagos, in Riva, in Borno, in Kano, in Kaduna or in Imo, in Ibaelva in so many places the perpetrators are known we lack political will to deal with it. That is what the problem is. Dr. Mefal, very interesting you said the perpetrators are known. This is a call for INEK to seek the appointment of a special council. In July 2022 INEK said made it known that they had more than 334 post-primary pre-election cases or litigations ongoing. As of November 2022 the number according to INEK had risen to more than 600 litigations. These are pre-election cases. Even with elections concluded I'm sure more will be added to that number. Does INEK need to make such a move at this time? Syrup is saying seeking the appointment of a special council to investigate and then they will prosecute when they have a plethora of cases at the courts already. I'm saying that because each polling unit is meant to have a police officer. Even the copy of the EC8 is given to one is given to the police officer who is present. Up all the way to the Collation Centre you have police officers sitting by the REC or the National Returning Officer, National Chairman as the case may be. So do we need to bring INEK into all of this at this point looking at what they have on their hands? Well I really don't think the problem is INEK. INEK does not have a prosecutorial power. INEK has been proposing that they're giving a commission to deal with the electoral offenses. They'll be talking about that. It is needy police. Each INEK appoints a special prosecutor and investigator and order. You still need the police for proper prosecution. That's the truth. INEK at that now does not have the power to prosecute. They can only appear in court as witnesses. So it goes back to the police. Everything that has to do with the electoral violence is within the preview of the police. They are the ones to do the investigation. And you really, you know, identify something. But in each province unit, a policeman at least one was prosecuted. We saw videos of electoral violence and we saw in many instances where policemen were very present, complacent, sometimes he'd be in court with it. Just look out if you are there and talks are in very polite units. There's plenty pulling, you know, materials, polling boxes, ballot boxes, ballot papers and the policeman there does nothing. Something is not adding up well for me. So you can see that they cannot be said to be helpless. They were helpless. They acted in some instances where they wanted to act. And in many other instances they just stood by and watched. They didn't act. Because when they talk in very polite unit, beat up, pulling an agent, cut off everything and policemen are around. In some instances these soldiers were around. So how do you begin to go about that? You know, without the police first carrying out their functions. They didn't. In most instances, we saw it. The videos are all very great. You know, so appointing a special prosecutor and all those things for me, I don't see how far that can go because then the foundation is already destroyed. You know, there's what you call first information report. It is the police that will prepare. Where the police will complicit that what kind of report do you expect to get? If you also appoint a special prosecutor, the police is supposed to come and give evidence. Yes, the man that will give evidence is part of the program. What kind of evidence do you expect to get from him? Let me tell you what I expect. It is the IG that shows the institute special investigation to investigate all the police officers that were posted to the areas where firemen died and all that were recorded and get them to account for what happened and to keep them where they are clearly complicit. I recall one incident in Lagos where a non-talk is a threat to, you know, able to lead to the estate and all that. The policeman was the team. So if you want to deal with a situation like that, you're facing only a plan with political way. The police will have to investigate and prosecute, not INEC because INEC doesn't have the power. There's a lot to unbendle here. You've said that if you are meant to solve the problem and you are part of the problem, how do you solve it? It's so interesting to note that the police, apart from INEC, maybe the political parties, not even observers, but apart from INEC and political parties, the police are the ones who have the result of the election. Even the ones that are rigged. Yes, if they have to write a report to the IG, it's okay, this one was rigged. They can give the accurate figure for the election because they are there. It's unfortunate. We've seen videos of some of the officers engaging in breaking electoral act themselves. This is a calling the government has to act. I don't know if you would like to see, apart from the fact that INEC themselves have been calling for a special agency, an election offences commission. What do you think about the role, the role the president and the government, the ruling party, the ruling administration plays, rather, in appointing INEC chairman, rather, that may not be enhancing such a view or let's say a disposition to go after some of these electoral offenders. What I'm saying is that we have what we call the hate speech law in this country. One of the things it seeks to do is to make sure that people do not, nobody in Nigeria uses, publishes, presents, produces or plays whatever, that is threatening, abusive, insulting, particular tribe and ethnic hatred and all that. We've seen members of the administration or the ruling party, the campaign of the ruling party, issue ethnic statements that can be categorized as hate speech. So if this is happening in the government and ruling party, what power can the INEC chairman and his people act with to go after such things? And maybe because of the lack of true independence, this is just a mirage. Well, first and foremost, INEC is not independent with a fact. That word independent there is just for decoration. They are not independent. You can see that in how the general elections, you know, have a handout, you know, beautiful petitions, beautiful electoral act. So somewhere along the line, you know, they veered off completely and took the process to where nobody knew. And by that they bandaged all the beautiful preparations and efforts. So if you, first and foremost, I want us to know that the commission being sought by INEC for me is really not necessary because, you know, it is still the same police officers that will be appointed to those commissions to, you know, become investigators. Recall when we started the EFCC, it was the police that were the investigators on the recently, the EFCC was not training his own investigators. And I think he quoted the EFCC chairman, Bauer, he is one of the products of the EFCC, you know, trainees that eventually became their own products. The point I'm making is the prosecution of election violence and other offenders is not going on at the moment. And the police ought to be on top of it. They are not. They know why they don't want to. And it simply has to do with the lack of a political will. You see, for me, the whole thing goes back to even the president himself. If the president is, you know, alarmed by what happened, he would direct the IG to investigate some of this thing. But if the president says that he's satisfied with the election, so for him the violence is all part of it and should be accepted as such. So it's a complicated situation. I personally don't see how, you know, the independent commission will be of any use, you know, because it is still us. It is still our own police that will keep hold and manage. They haven't done well, leave them with the investigations of the ones they are handling at the moment. So what will the commission confer on them that will be different from the powers they have already? I don't see it. That's not it, you know. Okay. All right, Ambrose, we have a lot of actors in the political space. You know, it's a wide range of people involved in the election. Why do you think there is this focus by an organization like CERAP on the governors and deputy governors when we're talking about electoral offenses and electoral violence? Probably good, I didn't get that. We have quite a number of people, a lot of actors and players in the political scene and during elections. There are quite a number of them. Why do you think there's a focus by CERAP, a group organization like CERAP, on the governors and deputy governors when they are talking about electoral violence and electoral offenses? You know, for me, you know, partly right. CERAP is partly right. And you are also right by highlighting the fact that there are other actors who perpetrated the same offense. But that of the governors and their deputies is somewhat, you know, challenging and there has always been the main challenge. The way we look at it, they are the ones who enjoy the immunity. They are the ones that control the security in their state. They are the ones with the funds. So at the end of the day, even those who are not necessarily governors and deputy governors, they are still the ones being sponsored by them. So they are the ones protecting them. So that's the angle the CERAP is trying to, it is in tandem with the observation of the IGO police that the governors, they were the ones sponsoring a political violence before the election. You know, so I think that the police will go after whoever, it does not matter who these ones are, a contestant or a candidate or leashes, thugs, go after the thugs. Go after the thugs and they will implicate those who are sponsoring them. But the police is not doing this. This is the tragedy. They have to go after these people, prosecute them. You see, moda is moda. It doesn't make it any less because it happened in an election. But this appears to be the attitude of the police towards it. They don't see political crimes as crimes they are. So the buck goes back to the IG. I expect him to institute very high-powering, you know, investigative panel to really work on the policemen that didn't do their work. That's the issue here. Yes, he knows that the police is not officially endorsing election violence. He has to take this necessary step. Okay, Dr. Mofo, before we go, we've seen incidents where violence is meted on some voters in different parts of the country. You can use Ligas as a case study. And voters, residents of these areas, try to do something to fight back. Some came out with their dogs, some came out with their sticks, some came out with bottles just to chase away dogs. Now, if there is such an incident like we saw, and then there happens to be some injury to one of the people who came to attack an area voting a polling unit, do you think the voters, the residents who fought back, should also be considered part of those who are committing electoral offenses by moving out with their dogs and their bottles and sticks on election day? You know, self-help is the only necessary where the state cannot protect the citizens. That is right, probably. People have to bring in their dogs and their some measures to even protect themselves because the police, the army, didn't do anything. In those instances, particularly in Ligas, in Rivers, in so many other places, how do you now begin to blame a citizen that tries to protect himself? Right to life is not the one for the Vettahuman right. Right to life. We have to protect ourselves. If the police was up and on top of their game, it doesn't expect the citizens to be you know, taking such measures. So what they have done is self-help. It may not be right, but then what do you do in that circumstance? When you are told not to vote, that you cannot vote, and you are chased away, even the Yorubans that looked like ebots were not allowed to vote. That is sad. And the police story, they were there. They didn't do anything. And many people were disenfranchised that way, both suppression perpetrated that way, with active, you know, a collusion of the police that should stop it. That is the point here. So for me, if they have to prosecute one who is trying to defend himself, very difficult. I don't know which judge would give a judgment against such a person. We need to get the work done properly. Let the police help to achieve free, fair, credible election. Two institutions that will ensure free, fair, credible election in any place, particularly in Nigeria, is INEC and the police. Thank you very much, Dr. Lome, for we have to pull the plugs at this time, but you've given us very interesting analysis of this situation, and we'll be watching what Oluwadare and his people at Serap will be doing going forward. They've said, basically they're going to sue INEC if they don't hit their demands in seven days. So we'll see what happens if the electoral empire will be forced to do as Serap has advised. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you. I have a blank piece. Yes, then we'll get to speaking with Dr. Lome, for media and political communication, specialists right there in our border. Thank you so much for being part of the show. We take a break. When we return, we'll be looking at, you know, the cash crunch, redesign policy, and the fact that, you know, some quarters say it's a bit different from what we experienced in January. Please stick with us.