 Hello, my name is Daniel Schiavoni. I'm a partner at Snake Hill Web Agency in Baltimore. I'm so happy to have you here at Triple Con, coming off the Dries Note. I've been really freaking out. Really freaking out. Last year in Baltimore, a triple business survey came out. Me and my partner, who is also my wife, we've been talking about it ever since. Disagreeing, butting heads like business partners and spouses will do. I'm happy to say that I'm freaking out last after this morning's Dries Note, which is fantastic. I'm happy to say that it seems like this discussion is relevant. Back, as I mentioned, last year, around the time of Baltimore, Triple Con, the business survey came out. There were some poll quotes in the survey and some data. This is one of the poll quotes, repeating a message that's been in Dries Notes now for several years, that Triple 8 is for bigger enterprise projects, sophisticated solutions, however you want to word it. It's been a message that's been hammered through several times. Then put into this context, though, being a small agency, started to freak out. The Triple Business Survey, 239 responses, 40 different countries. As you can see, mostly Europe, or a big chunk in Europe, and in less than Europe, two-thirds in North America, and the rest distributed. I'm interested if you haven't taken a look, definitely take a look at this. It made me think, we're saying that the evolution of the CMS marketplace to favor more comprehensive and thus also more complex solutions is favoring bigger companies with stronger competencies through a number of experts in specific fields. This can be a struggle for smaller vendors as mastering clients' needs requires more expertise than is available in their staff. What do we mean by big, and what do we mean by small? This is data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics showing the distribution of small companies and large companies based on number of employees. As you can see, over half the companies out there are small. Very few are the larger companies. So 90% of companies are under 20 employees. The average business generates 1.1 million in sales and has about four employees and pays an average compensation of $41,000. That's across many industries, not necessarily technology. Small and medium-sized businesses account for 50% of employment in the United States. So there are some trends going on in the past few years with businesses, and we've all noticed this with very large companies like Walmart, Amazon, Facebook, and the tech industries. Companies smaller than 500 employees, the firm size actually shrank in the past since 2001. So on average, they used to be 19 out of 13. So small companies are getting smaller. New businesses are starting to stay small. The average size of companies with between 510,000 employees has grown tremendously, 35% during those 10 years. On average, 2,200 employees. Let's bring this back to the Drupal world. How do we measure ourselves in the Drupal world? Under 20, I would say is a break point because at 20, you're at direct supervision. It means I own the company or I own the company with a partner. We are directly supervising everyone in the company. Somewhere between 20 and 50, in order to grow my company, and I've been at this point before the previous company that helped start. We were four of us the first year, we did half a million in sales. Second year, we were 12. We did 1.2 million in sales. The third year, we were around 20. We did 2.2 million in sales, and then things got complicated. So between 20 and 50, the supervisors have to start supervising other supervisors. And that's where it gets complicated. And some of you may be at that break point or may have come across that before. Now, the next step is 50 to 100 where the business owners are really disengaging from the business. They're focused on growth. They're disengaged in direct operations, I should say. Somewhere around 100 and 500, you become divisional. Whereas the organization is so big, you have to have division heads. And then we start to split up, and then over 500 were considered possibly global. So I think these are good break points to use with the Drupal community. So what's the size in the Drupal ecosphere? This is data pulled together from the Drupal marketplace on Drupal.org. Now there's some caveats here, of course. We're working with, anytime you look at data, you kind of have to parse it, but also be critical at looking at it. So we're counting Drupal accounts associated with businesses. We're not including people in organizations who are not registered on Drupal.org and having the association. Some of these associations might be out of date, but I think the data gives us a pretty accurate picture of the lay of land in the Drupal community. This is also out of the 956 organizations in the marketplace. This is, I only got to 502 accounting. After that, sometime as you go through the marketplace, numbers stay pretty small, organizations of single person, two people under six. But the trend continues here. So I would say with this data, some of the largest are probably larger. So they would have more support staff. They might be in diverse business ventures, marketing, etc. But overall, I think this is a good picture of the lay of land. What's interesting here is that the majority of the community works for small shops. 74% of the Drupal community service providers have 20 employees or less. And less than 2% of Drupal service providers have over 200 employees. And the focus of the largest of the Drupal organizations are in hosting, marketing, and consulting. And by consulting, I would say most of that is placement, placing expertise within. And of this, 12 and under, the dark blue section, two thirds are six and under. So that's pretty remarkable. There are 74% of the two blue areas. Good chunk is in this range, that pivot range. They're starting supervisors are getting more. So it fits in with the overall data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Which leads me to believe that it's a pretty accurate picture. So small agencies. How accurate is this current narrative that we're hearing in the business survey? How accurate is that narrative? And I think today, at the gizmo, I was really happy that the narrative shifted in a more positive direction, at least for a person who owns a small Drupal. How do we rally the majority of Drupal service providers to drive Drupal growth and grow our businesses? And how does this majority thrive with Drupal 8? So let's talk about a few things. Let's talk about enterprise software. This is the image from Altered Carbon. These are the elites living above the clouds. Okay, what is enterprise software? Because here's some definitions. Satify satisfies the needs of an organization rather than individual users, business-oriented tools, tends to cost more, and the complexity needs specialists to implement. I thought this was an interesting take on the differences here. This person points out that the enterprise purchases a lot of software, and a lot of that software is not necessarily enterprise software. And the distinction is that enterprise software is purchased by a C-level manager or person in the organization, often a non-technical person. Again, comforting to see in the Drees Note that there's a focus on that. And it's purchased for the entire enterprise. So how do people sell enterprise software? So AQUI is selling to the enterprise. They have to target C-level decision makers. They engage through salespeople. They have longer sales cycles, pay annually rather than monthly. Add-ons and upsells focus on big deals. But there's this thing called the consumerization of IT. And that has certainly accelerated with the advent of smartphones and tablets and the ubiquity of electronic devices within the home. So with the average American adult spending more than 60 hours per week on a digital device, expectations change. Then they go to work. It affects the way they see enterprise software. So we have disruption of processes. We see this, bring your own device. We've seen it with Barack Obama. Couldn't have his blackberry anymore when he went to the White House. You've got to work for IBM or a big enterprise. You have to have their computer, be on a VPN, that kind of thing. Consistency of user experience, expectations are higher. We tend to have multiple devices. I think having a work phone and a home phone is becoming less and less. More people are using their private phone for work. There's easier sharing and we're really expecting better UIs overall. So even though we might be focused on enterprise market, consumer market is pretty important because there's faster innovation there. There's higher bar for usability and it's a big market influence. Consumers are enterprise decision makers. And you see this all the time where business owners, they have an experience. They experience software in their private lives. They expect the similar experience in the workplace. Often, all businesses have mixed environments and there's crossover applications. So let me tell you a story of enterprise software. There was this enterprise software called Lotus Notes and you may or may not be familiar with it and it might elicit a groan from you. Last year at Baltimore Drupalcon, I got Kevin Petit who is known in the Lotus world as Lotus Guru, who runs a blog LotusGuru.com. To come to Drupalcon Baltimore, trying to lure him to the open source community. Let me tell you about the story. So it was group where the idea was to connect people, involve email and databases. Individuals within the enterprise could create their own databases. There were professionals there creating databases, creating workflows. There are some interesting technical achievements among the product. It was highly secure, it used public key encryption. So you had to have the key, sound familiar, you had to have the key on your local computer, it had to match with the public key on the server in order for you to do anything. We're talking, when I got involved with Lotus Notes, it was early 90s, maybe 92, but you had keep in mind, this is enterprise email software. So you had the file size compared to Outlook. Outlook had a size limit, Lotus Notes didn't. It didn't matter. It had an innovative flat file database before it's time. Now we talk about NoSQL, it's kind of a trend thing. Back then it was, didn't matter. It was more a performant email server, it needed less hardware. You stood up exchange environment, you needed three, four servers. It couldn't handle the load as well as their server, it didn't matter. And in the end, consumer software, Outlook that was installed on every Windows machine out there overtook it. It drove the expectations and the purchasing decisions at the management level. So what does this have to do with Triple? Let's look at market share. And this is the trend between March 1st, 2017 and March 1st, 2018. So this is pretty current data. This is WordPress with 60% of the CMS market share and growing. Next down there, we have Joomla, which is in decline, and we have Drupal, which is in decline. So we keep saying, let's stop comparing Drupal and WordPress. We're not competing with WordPress. I think we've been wrong for several years now. We are in direct competition with WordPress. Yes, software as a service is a factor. A lot of this is off of sites like WordPress.com. And but WordPress is entering the enterprise market. It's starting to nibble at the edges. Yes, our technology is better. As you can see in the previous slide, that doesn't matter. And WordPress has a large community that if it was mobilized to actually fix the things that are wrong with WordPress, would be a formidable opponent in the enterprise market. Let's take a closer look. So a lot of what's the chatter about Drupal being enterprise software and competing in the enterprise market talks about competing with these two guys. Sitecore CMS and Adobe Experience Manager. There's Drupal with our 4.5-ish percent of CMS market share in decline. And we want to be those guys. So let that sink in. All right, let's talk more about enterprise market. So enterprise software market is complicated. Selling to enterprise is complicated. You have to sell to someone who's authorized to spend six figures-ish and more. Consumer market influences that enterprise market and influences those non-technical decision makers. And giving up ground in the CMS marketplace would be a tremendous risk right now for the Drupal ecosystem. And I would say that enterprise software, the differences might be more social than technical. So enterprise Drupal, you might have seen, I think this exact chart was in Adry's note in Baltimore. It's showing Acquia up here with Sitecore and Adobe Experience Manager competing in that quadrant. So this chart, I've struggled with this graph for a while. The first thing that people notice that it's Acquia, not Drupal. And I guess that's consistent with most of the graph. But overall, I've come to accept this. This is good for Drupal, but it measures the Acquia platform and not just Drupal. Drupal is the center of Acquia's business strategy. But yours, your business strategy and mine is different. And we have to think through how Drupal fits into our strategy. And I would point out there's a reason why the top three sponsors at the cons are hosting companies and not Drupal agencies. So the differences between Acquia and Drupal business strategy, as I mentioned, as a small Drupal agency, small, medium size, our business strategy has to be different. It can include enterprise sales, enterprise clients, but it probably includes more than that. Our resources are different. As we saw earlier, most of us are under 20 employees and a good many of us, a major majority are really under around 40, 50. So we're smaller. Our resources are different. Our target market may be different. There may be overlap, but it's different. And certainly our value proposition, how we sell ourselves is different than how the biggest organization sell themselves. The good thing is I think there are enough opportunities to go around. So here's more from the business survey. There is no easy work left and many people who came in during the good times will not be able to sustain their careers in the new world. I was freaking out when I read this, right? I'm a technical person, so I'm not afraid of composer and command line. But there's something that would be quite a pivot considering the trends we saw with Drupal 7. It made me feel like Milton. I'm being left out. So let's tackle this. Was Drupal 7 all that easy? Site building did become a thing. We had site builders. They could be a bit less technical than some of the other people in the organization. They could do useful work to stand up Drupal sites. We had panels and things like that that were front-end tools. Didn't have a lot of command line. So my question is, well, Drupal 8, who is it hard for? Certainly, you know, is it site builders, programmers, themers? I would say theming experience much better. User experience better, needs work. Site builder experience, we're working on it. We see it in the Drees note, right? We have all these layout tools. Program experience? Yeah, okay, if I'm a command line programmer, it's a little more complicated, right? But that's what we love, right? That's why we're programmers. So we also saw this in the Drees note. This is from Matthew Grasmick. So you're all familiar with what's going on here. So it's great that we're going to address this obstacle. You know, it's definitely a serious obstacle. But I would also question for a project between 50K, 200K, around that range, how big of a obstacle is this, right? You've got a team of developers working on a site for six months. They've got, what was it? What did it end up being? 41 clicks this morning. They click through 41 times one time. There's a site up. You know, we're good to go. We start work. We have six months more work after that. It's certainly a barrier in the evaluation. And again, it's comforting to know that that's being addressed. So we have these Drupal paradox that exists, right? So lower the required skills. We want lower skills because that lowers costs as a business owner. How many people are business owners here? Great. All right. So we all know our biggest cost of being a service provider is labor. So if we can lower the skill set and pay a little less for labor, that leaves us with more profit for growth, right? But we're raising complexity, which raises required skills, raises the cost of skills. So those two things, we seem to have a paradox going on. We wanted Drupal to be easier to use, but we keep making it more complicated. I think, you know, that's oversimplification. I think we're making some strides in some areas. Drupal 7 was supposed to be a user experience release. We didn't quite hit the mark. Drupal 8, I do believe Drupal 8 is heading in the right direction. We've got some great things going on there. We build stuff for site builders, but we tell them Drupal 8 is not their thing. And I think this is the most serious thing that's been going on the past few years since the release of Drupal 8. So we keep harping on this thing that Drupal 8 is hard. It's for enterprise websites, sophisticated user experiences, which, all right, you can take it, you know, that's fair. But how do we parse that? So we don't want to depend on this guy. This is kind of what I'm saying. I actually worked with someone who would do this, you know, be coding and, you know, I'm a god, you know, that kind of thing. We don't want to depend on this guy, because that guy ends up like that. Then there's the community and the long tail of Drupal contribution. Let's think about this long tail in a different way. Because in the past, we've thought about the long tail is a bad thing. How to shorten the tail, get more people doing more commits. But we need that long tail. That long tail isn't out there. We don't have the spike at the very end of the tail become short. So the Drupal community, individuals in small shops, we create Drupal talent. How many people started? How many stories have we heard? There was a story during the Drees note. I started playing around with it. I found that I could install Drupal. I could work with the CSS. I don't have a computer science degree. You know, we've heard that story many times. So small shops, individuals are really important for creating Drupal talent. Small shops make contributions to core and contribute. See many core contributors around that are working for themselves or working for smaller organizations. Smaller shops drive adoption by giving a bigger footprint to the product. Small shops, more importantly, sell a lot of Drupal. So being small, there's no comforting side note. There's no correlation between bigger companies getting bigger and smaller companies closing. So there's no direct correlation. We can say that. Yeah. So let's look at some positive things. Employment amongst web developers is on the rise. It's expected to grow 15% the next 10 years. We've got social media ad spending is expected to pass newspapers in 2020. Some of these are industry drivers. 1 million Drupal 7 sites will need to be migrated in the near future. Around 46% of websites do not use a CMS. You know, half of small businesses do not have a website. The majority of websites are still not mobile friendly. And this bottom one got cut off. But basically Congress in late December passed the Connected Government Act which requires all federal agencies that create or redesign their websites for public use to the greatest extent possible to be mobile friendly. So there's a lot of work to be done here. And small, medium Drupal agencies are there to do it. There's also the mid-market. They tend to be 100 to 500 employees, 10 million to 1 billion annual revenue. They make technology purchases and they tend to focus on functionality, reporting capabilities. And if this market were its own country, it would be the fourth largest economy in the world. So the small, medium business market and in Europe, it is referred to as the small, medium enterprise market, is pretty substantial. So how do we compete against the bigger Drupal agencies? Well, we make size or strength, right? Flexibility, speed, nimble. We're personal. A lot of business owners, a lot of business managers like talking to the owner, to the boss. We make that personal. We're local. A lot of people will select, make their selection based on, you know, I can actually meet with you in person. That's the selling point. We can be unique in our own ways. And we can also work with the larger businesses. Selling our small agency Drupal is around, you know, there's several places where we can sell around, being nimble with our design and builds, personalized support. You know, there are some areas you need to diversify in, might be content marketing. There might be things that you can focus and specialize in, like upgrades and migrations. And being the consultant, being the shock troops, dropping it, especially I was talking to a person who is a freelancer yesterday. And just talking about how he can drop in either to another large agency or to a client to solve a problem for a period of time and then move on to the next place to solve a problem. And that's what we can do as small Drupal agencies. And we can also leverage complementary technologies. So, you know, we show clients things like MailChimp, looking at analytics, that kind of thing, being the consultants, being the web strategist for their business. So in conclusion, don't panic. We're open source. You can stay involved, let your voice be heard, contribute, help to steer the ship. I think, I think it's small and medium sized Drupal agencies. I think we need to be more active and more vocal. We need to get our message out. It'd be great to see some sort of initiative around growing this core Drupal market, the core Drupal service providers, 74% of the Drupal community. So it'd be great to see that conversation continue. And we're in demand, and Drupal has always been for the enterprise. It's never been a tool to build restaurant sites, right? Some of that might have been going on, but it's never been really suited for that. So in many ways, it's nothing new. So there's some related talks going on tomorrow. You might want to check out, in defense of small Drupal. I think this is more technical oriented, how to improve Drupal and make it more suitable for, for, you know, easier for people to implement, for individuals to lower the barrier stantry. Now we have WordPress versus Drupal, how the website industry is evolving. That's Zach Rosen from Pantheon. Half the sites on Pantheon, there are 200 sites on, 200,000 sites on Pantheon, half of them are WordPress. But I bet they, they haven't taken a chip out of WordPress.com yet. So it's very interesting. And I think they have, by doing that was a very smart move. On their part. I mean that's, and I'd love to talk more around, around that. We've heard a lot of, heard a lot of talk about, again in the Drupal Business Survey, they talk about agencies doing more WordPress to kind of be useful in the smaller sites. And I, I understand the logic behind that. But I don't understand. Yeah, there's something, there's something not, that's not jibing with me on that, right? All right, so references. These are some posts out there. Drupal is the worst content management system, except for all those other solutions. That's a really great place to start, to find out more about this topic. We've got other, other decent posts. Have we reached peak Drupal? So this is a conversation that's happening out in the community. And I think it's, I think it's being heard. I think it was interesting at the Dries Note. Matthew Grasmick getting a shot, a major shout out for his work there. Some of these other posts. So people are listening. So it's very important to have that conversation, having that conversation out in public to improve things. And again, I think the Dries Note really calmed some of my freaking out for the past year. So I'll open this up for questions or discussion. Yes, sir. Yeah, I was at the Pantheon Partner Day yesterday. So I've already seen what Zach's going to talk about and you should go do it. There were some really interesting insights. Especially with him having, again, all those WordPress and Drupal on one platform. I think we're seeing some things that, you know, an aquea wouldn't see, because they don't have the insight into WordPress. Anyone else? Small business? Come on, Joe. Joe. Daniel, that was great. I've been stressing the last year myself. So we probably should have gotten a coffee a year ago. But I wanted to say that I, you know, without, I don't know who, it's a very small sampling, that survey, but certainly something to be attended to. And you wonder who sent it out. Was it driven by a major hosting provider that has a very heavy influence in the Drupal community? Or, but two things that I think resonated for what you had said was first, working with larger businesses, I think is helping a small agency like mine, because there's so much more than just Drupal now that companies are looking for, or WebCMS. And then the, so that's a positive thing. I think also selling our subject matter expertise or situational fluency, if you're a small agency, you know, that gravitas of the original founder and doing this for a long time, something very hard for large enterprises to, you know, to try to copy when they're going in and talking with a prospect. And then on the other side, which I wanted to hear more about, we've seen in the last six months a lot more prospects. They're wanting to go to WordPress, which was surprising, you know, to us, because we haven't seen as much. We don't do WordPress. All our customers are saying, well, they want to do a site core epi server. So it's almost like a return to 10, 15 years ago. And I wondered if other people were seeing the same kind of a thing. You know, we're a New York City agency, but we do operate all around the East Coast. Yeah, I don't have any additional data for that. You know, I was curious about the sampling size. And when I saw that Europe was so well represented amongst that sampling, some of the people working on the survey were Europe based. I wonder if that had an influence. I think we can get the raw data. And I'd be interested in taking a look at that. It also shows that, you know, when you do pull quotes from respondents, I wonder what's the best practice for that? You know, because you're focusing in on something. You're making a subjective decision to pull something out like that, which makes me question it. And as far as the competitive market, I do think we've got to look at the full spectrum. I don't think we can say, WordPress is for blogs. It's not a factor because it is major factor. And we're seeing it. We're seeing it encroaching in on, you know, triple sites being replaced WordPress, WordPress doing larger sites. And we know all the technical difficulties with that. But like I mentioned earlier, it's not about the decision makers at that point are not technical. They're not making technical decisions. You can have a product that's worse technically, and a product that's better. And that is not necessarily a factor, depending on the advocate who's advocating within the organization. I was thinking about something lately that I think maybe summarizes a key pain point that our small agency has perpetually had. I'm wondering if you had thoughts or advice on it. In being a small agency, doing Drupal and therefore large projects, or doing these big thousands, several thousand hour engagements is a typical kind of thing. We are always seemingly in the situation of not having much redundancy in our active client base. So we can become very dependent on whatever large project we're actively doing. Yesterday at the business summit, the guys from summit accounting agency said they try to make sure all their clients who are Drupal agencies do not rely on any particular customer for more than 10% of their revenue, which is a lovely goal. I don't know how I possibly achieve it, and it seems like there's therefore an inherent malalignment of being a small shop if you're doing large projects. If we were a much larger number of people, we could have a much larger number of large projects going on simultaneously, and then if one gets plugged or whatever, we're not dependent on it. Do you see that as an actual configuration element? There's two resources for this. There's a book called The E-Mith Revisited, and our business consultant assigned it to us right off the bat. It talks about this dependency on one large client and how what a negative effect that can have on your business. And number two is last year at Drupal Con Baltimore, there was a session that Jam did. It was down on the product floor. He did it with the head of Tape 03, and they talked about SLAs, selling SLAs, service level agreements, right? And that's really the business that Acquia is in, enterprise SLAs. And Pantheon is in that business. And guess what, we're in that business too. So if you have a retainer with a client, you're giving them an SLA. You're saying, okay, you've got this site, it's complicated, we're supporting that site. And that's a, I think that's a good regular stream of income. And you can do things with that by saying, okay, you know, not only you have keeping the site up and running, but how can we increase traffic of the site? How can we help you manage content for the site? Is, you know, you do, I do think there's a need to diversify whether that's within your organization or with the partners to offer other services like online content marketing, certainly the support agreements. I think the days of us managing hosting, you know, that's a high risk in my mind. But you can white label things. So PlatformSH has a wonderful program for agencies. Now the big three hosting options, theirs is the most technically complex, but it's also the most fluid of the three. But I do know that Pantheon is restructuring their hosting agreements, so if there's a gap, you know, you have the $25 starter and you got $100 and then you got $400 and then you have $12,000. It's like, there's clients in between that. And I think that's, and I think there's, for us and for larger agencies, there are clients who are in between. Like our target is 50 to 200,000. That's our sweet spot, right? So yeah, creating those, I don't know if we'll ever get to 10%, you know, we'll always be, it'll always have that stress, I think. I think that's probably unrealistic until you get up to that 30, 40, 50 employee level. And a lot of us decide not to do that. I don't want to be that big. I've been there before. I've been to that inflection point. We're at 24 employees. We had a chief operating officer. We had two salespeople. I was managing eight, nine people at a time, which is, that's, you're maxed out at that point. My partners were managing X amount of people and we were doing great, but it suddenly changed. And we were going to change into a body shop. At that point I wasn't doing Drupal, but I was in charge of the software, all the software development. And we were changing into a body shop. And that's another business model, placing people in seats. And that's what a lot of the big organizations are doing, especially around our area in Baltimore, Washington, with all the federal work, is it placing those, what do they call them, FTEs? You know? But that's not a business that interests me. I mean, I like the creative part, which is the higher risk part, unfortunately. Yeah. Anyway else, it'd be great to have more conversation. Certainly after this, I'd love to find a way to do this after. Hello. I came here from Ukraine, so I'm interested in about cooperation between agencies, right? So, for example, I'm working kind of a big company, but Drupal Direction started just, I think, three, four years ago. And in my city, I'm in small cities, so we just started a team from three people, and we grew up to a team of 10 people during the year. And what is interesting experience, which we have, this is that we are looking for small cities like regional cities in Ukraine, and we're kind of trying to build cooperation between agencies. So, for example, we have strong on one direction. For example, you mentioned about subject matter expertise, right? So, we have strong BAs, requirements managers, but Drupal is what we're developing. For example, vice versa. And then, when we join together, we can do actually bigger project for big enterprise or for anybody, because when small agencies are cooperating, they become a big team with still independent sub-agencies, if it's split together, right? So, it's interesting about similar experience if you have. Oh, yeah. And I think the partnering thing is real important, too. We didn't get on the schedule this year yet, but I'm going to run up to the main room. Hopefully, there'll be a slot for a bof. We've been doing a bof every year since Chicago. I even hear, when I didn't show up in LA, they still did, it was called Freelancer Speed Dating. And we all get in a room and we meet each other, and I've met so many people. I've had relationships like from that over the years, even though you might not pull them into something for several years, but you'll see them. I mean, I think it's real important to have opportunities, especially the next few days, to have one-on-one conversations with each other. That, for me, makes Drupal kind of worthwhile. I can have some great conversations with individuals and get to know people more. Like many years ago, I saw, it's funny how you get connections. So many years ago, there was a friend of mine, a now friend of mine, Val. He's known as Val the Bald on Drupal.org. And he tweeted like, oh, I've just been fired. Basically, I've been fired for my job. And I tweeted to him, well, there's no reason to worry. And we started a conversation. He ended up working for us for several years, and I worked for FFW. And through him, I met other people around the world. And we can take advantage of that global economy. But what there works with me is where I have individual relationships with people. So we have a developer who's been with us for five years. He's in Israel. And that relationship, we didn't meet in person until last year in Baltimore. And he had his whole family with him. It was great. I think partnering is, there's an art to it. I think you've got to spend some time nurturing those relationships. You never know, there are certain things. You never can tell by how a person looks, whether they're going to be a good client, a good employee. You can't make that judgment. It's so important to keep an open mind and keep those conversations going. Don't rush it. Sometimes you hear it's like dating. You go out for coffee first, but lunch, non-committal. And over time, you nurture those relationships. You never know where they go. But that's where, being a small business, that's why I enjoy it so much, it's about those individual relationships. It's very personal. But thanks for doing that. This is a conversation that has been very interesting to me over the past couple of years for the same reasons. In New Orleans, we had a bof for small Drupal shops. And so we're doing that bof again tonight at 5 o'clock if anybody's interested in discussing more unique pain points for smaller organizations. But out of that, we started a Slack channel, smalldrupalshop.slack.com. And so there's a couple of us, small agencies, and we've been able to do some of that where I had more work than we could do, and another shop was looking for work and we were able to partner like you were talking about and kind of work together and solve a problem for us, but provide work for them. So if anybody's interested, you can jump on there and request an invite, and we'll add you. Smalldrupalshop.slack.com. Yes, and there was a group on Drupal.org called Microshop, and I did get to admin access to that. So maybe I'll attend the bof, and maybe we can talk about strategizing communications. I've been thinking that the small Drupalshop Slack channel needs to be a channel within Drupal's channel. So that might be something that we consider. There is one there, too. It's just part of the conversation I made. Good point. So like a good communication strategy, making these connections and fostering them in between camps, and yeah, that's great. One more? Yeah. Like my experience with, I have struggled with the same problems, and so I'm trying to reach to a lot of start-up communities to like sell more them into the Drupal, since it's more complex than WordPress, for example, or you can do more things. So I'm trying to see if there is room for improvement there, and maybe you have experiences with some, because I mean it's not necessarily block or e-commerce site, but they have experience with start-ups to using Drupal. Yeah, my experience as start-ups have not been good clients for us. They're bootstrapping. They've got to be especially lean. They are very accessible, and even in Baltimore there's this organization called Technically It's a .ly, and they hold these tech breakfasts around, they're around the U.S., and so they do dog and pony shows, and you go there and network with start-ups. So it's a good place to find people, but I think you have to be careful about betting them. They're really tight on budget, and they tend to be technical people, and they're tough clients. That's just my personal experience. I hope you do better. Daniel, I own a small agency, and I have a question. How small? What size? We are a team of 30 people. We have an office in India as well. That's very good. The largest shop in Germany, I was talking to a woman yesterday, it's about 30 people. I think she's the largest shop in Germany. Interesting. So one of my experiences has been that with Drupal, when you inherit projects which have been done by some other developers or some other agencies, and you see that they have not followed the good practices and they blame it on technology because the business people have no understanding of what the content types and blocks and paragraphs are, and when you try to educate them and try to do the right thing for them, in some sense it is kind of backfiring you, but sometimes WordPress is so easy to make them, I guess, understand that. Just curious if you had any thoughts or if you want to share any comments on that. We've done a lot of salvage projects. You know, come across our last big one, we were the third vendor. They went through two other vendors. We're very frustrated. I don't know the exact amount of money they spent, but they probably spent over $100,000 already with two vendors over a two-year period and had nothing to show for. So it is a, I think it's a it's a good area to target, but it's also, it takes nuance, right? You have to be really straightforward. Your documentation, everything has to be far more detailed because you're already starting in a position of mistrust, right? And so you've got to go the extra mile to re-establish the trust even though you're not the person who started on the wrong track, right? So you've got to up your game, which is not necessarily a bad thing. You should probably be upping, you know, looking at all those things to do better across the board for new clients, better communications, better documentation, managing client experience, client expectations. But yeah, that has been an area that we've worked in quite a bit and I do think it's a, there are unfortunately quite a few organizations out there have had a bad experience with that. All right, that's it. Let's see, Amanda's here. So we're ready to switch, change the guard, five o'clock. Do you know which room? The small dribble? Buff one. All right, I'll be there. Thank you.