 Thank you so much for staying with us. This is why in the morning and we are looking into the judicial leadership of CJ Maraga as compared to his predecessor Dr. Mutunga. We have mentioned so much into what Dr. Mutunga did and what Maraga has come in and done following the footprints, veering off and of course looking into the service of justice. In partiality we have talked about and now we want to look into other things that CJ Mutunga did and what CJ Maraga has been doing. And when this time is coming to an end, what kind of legacy will he be leaving us with considering even the president will be leaving. So we have two men to watch as to what they will be leaving us with. I'm speaking to Jack Muman, he's a political activist and political analyst, a Cyrus Elito. Now gentlemen, before we went on that break I was saying CJ Dr. Mutunga he supported and strengthened the judicial training institutes as a nucleus for jurisdiction training and an institution of higher learning. What has Maraga done to this dream has improved on it or he hasn't Cyrus? I can say he has improved and what I look forward to is his successor to implement it fully. You can say he has improved. He has not done it to our expectation but he has done best on the budget that he had. And remember the judiciary has also been facing issues with the budget allocation. And this is because from where I see it and I said this thing earlier on is that because he decided to dine and wine with the executive. Unlike his predecessor who never dined and wine with the executive. He knew I'm here and I'm part and I'm an arm of the government independent as the executive is and as the legislature is. Because there are three arms of government. So let me play my role. So that is what Nani came to a time and forgot. So he decided also to go in rallies with the president, meeting with the president. When you dine with them, they'll use you and they'll dump you because they want you to implement the idea and not the idea of monenji. And when you're independent then you'll be serviced to monenji. So those are the things that he did. And you see Maraga he'll be remembered for two things. One, notification of election 2017. Two, sending an advisory letter to the president on the dissolution of the parliament. We'll be looking into that in a bit but for now into considering the dreams of his predecessor Dr. Mutunga. Has he lived by this? Yes he has and I don't want to be seen as all in grief for the chief justice. But I think he has tremendously done well. I agree with my co-panelist Syros that he has done, though not to our expectation, but at least up to where he could depending on the kind of budget education that was given to the judiciary. And one thing that I still don't agree with Syros, I don't think it's correct to say that the chief justice has been dining with the executive. I think it has been a challenge because the three arms of government have not been working hand in hand and that is where we've always had problems with the achievement of the judiciary. As a alien vision by the predecessor of the now chief justice. Because the executive has always held it's ground and the legislature has always held it's ground and the judiciary has worked on it's own. So it has always been a friction between the three arms of government. Alright now, one maybe as we look into final things or what Dr. Mutunga did, he spearheaded independent and principled dialogue, consultation and collaboration between the three arms of the government. You have just rightly said it is not okay to say he dined with the executive. You have been saying he dined with the executive that is CJ Maraga. But for him Mutunga he looked into the dialogue, consultation and collaboration. We have seen the CJ Maraga complain how he is being treated. I had the critic say he has been a cry baby into what he is being treated. What do you make of all this? You see, for you to be a mediator, you need to be independent. And the executive has used the parliament and the judiciary to some extent to achieve it's own agenda. Organized the mana inch. So the parliament has been using as a rubber stump. The judiciary has been just sitting there and watching, saying nothing. When even bad laws are passed, you shall sit down and not give directives. And that's where now mediation needs to come in. Just to come in, just to weigh in on that before it goes. I don't understand when you say that the judiciary has just been sitting there when bad laws are passed without giving direction. It's known and it is in public domain that so many court orders have been issued and they have been disregarded. So even if the judiciary issued orders or directives and they are not obeyed. So I don't understand what else is left of Maraga. Then I think the question should be if the court orders are not being implemented or adhered to what's next. Now for example, if the river Hilary, you have a case today in court, you don't respect the court orders. What will happen to you next? You'd be arrested. Who does the arrest? The arrest is done by the police. The police is under the executive. I don't object. It's under the executive. But you see this is an independent organ. You should be up to task to execute your mandate. Because judiciary's mandate ends when they issue the order. The police is a service provider. In books it is. What you're trying to say is we have a problem. We have a problem, a big problem, not just a problem. If the court issues orders and then someone disobeys the orders, an executive order will come, I'm forgetting the name, someone will be arrested and taken to court. We have seen our leaders being arrested and taken to court, then they are bailed out. What if it happens to the high authorities? What if? What if the orders now come, assuming they want to arrest the president, which we know according to the books and the law, it can. But now there are limitations. If we have this problem, the court orders are not obeyed. What's next? Who is to blame? What will we do? In your own opinion. I think that is a very grey area. It's a very grey area that needs to be looked into. Consolitatively as a nation, we need to find, we need to navigate around that grey area as a country. Sayres we have a problem. What do you think we should do? The biggest problem we are having in this country is psychofancy. When we know this is the right thing that we need to do, but we don't adhere to it, just because someone somewhere has not directed us to do so. Psychofancy has led us to be where we are. And being led by individual people in the name of CSOs, activists, just to not to champion the agenda of monainchi, but to champion an individual's agenda. You see there is a difference between monainchi and an individual. Because there are so many constitutional things that are not being adhered to by the executive, by the parliament and by the judiciary. But you see as a civil society, we sit there relaxed looking at it and watching at our comfort zone. Waiting for just being button pressed or remote controlled. So much civil society have believed that we need to join the mandamano thing that has always been called by the so called opposition led by the former premier. And that has been a very wrong notion. So the civil society has blindfolded this country for a very long time. So what we need to do as monainchi, we need to develop what we call a civil education. Now we need civil society now what they need to sit down and see what are we going to train our teacher, our people on civic rights, on how to handle their leaders accountable, on how to ensure that there is good constitutional adherence. So this is now what the civil society needs to sit down and look into. So we shall have a good country, a better country when good champions rise up looking at the constitution. We have a problem in the implementation of the constitution. Now this is what we are going to focus on, this is what we are going to do to ensure that the implementation of the constitution is fully implemented and we are not going to achieve this if this one is not achieved. That is what the civil society now needs to do for us to be at a better place or else this country is going in a very wrong direction. All right, Jack, during his tenure, Dr. Mutunga is believed to have been on the frontline to fight corruption. He was someone who he said to have been against corruption. Coming to CJ Maraga, what do you make of him? Well, like Sarah said before, CJ Mutunga, in his life or rather when he began his public life he was an activist. And CJ Maraga has come out as a soft spoken person and there has been a person who works behind scenes. When it comes to matters corruption, I think it wouldn't be a fair to judge him as a person but it would be rather fair if we judge ourselves as a nation during his tenure as a CJ. Did the executive support him? Did his team in the judiciary support him? Did the legislature support him? Did the Kenyan populace support him? I think from that point of view then we can be able to know what steps or rather what gains or losses we made as a country in corruption during CJ Maraga's tenure. We've had a very serious corruption allegation and corruption cases during Maraga's tenure and we all know how most of them have gone and how others have gone without wanting to mention because some of them are bigger names and so I think as a nation we are losing the fight against corruption not CJ Maraga. So we have to come out as a nation and fight corruption because it is what is ailing this nation. Kenya is a very resourceful country. We have got a lot of resources. If harnessed and put into right use, Kenya would rank among the best countries that anyone would want to live in. But going the way it is going, most investors are pulling out of this country. I don't know what will happen in the coming generation. Alright, enough. What has CJ Maraga done in the fight against corruption considering we have a case of the dams via Rol and Kimarell two years down the line? And as I stated earlier, the judiciary should have come up with the mechanism of expediting the corruption cases because it is something that is ailing the country. It is something that needs to be looked into seriously. We need to look at the economic crimes. We need now to set a precedence and say this is how economic crimes are going to be dealt with from now henceforth. And as an institution, as an arm of government, this is the direction we are giving so that we can save our country. Maraga has mentioned several times that there are corruption issues within the judiciary mentioned, but I have not seen him take an action towards it. So if the institution itself is corrupt, how are you going to handle corruption issues that will face other normal Kenyans who are not part and parcel of that institution who just expect what is called service delivery from the institution? So this is a challenge and I call upon the next CJ who will take up from Maraga that these are some of the key issues that should be looked into. The corruption cases and the other economic crimes that are there. Because one, I can give an example of the drug cases. The High Court was dancing and playing around with the Akasha issue. But when they were taken to America it only took a few days for them to be hundreds of centers. So what is the difference? In everything that we do we borrow a leave from another country. When Maraga issued that ruling on the election it is something that was borrowed by other courts. Because I am very sure when you refer to something in the law you always refer to a ruling that was made by a certain judge, certain place, at a certain time. Because they may look similar in one way or the other. So this is a big problem with this issue of following cases in the country. I believe the judiciary thing institution that was formed it was meant to update the judges, the magistrates on how to handle cases in the modern society. And how to expedite cases so that we may not have backlog of cases in the courts. Let me say something on that. I want to believe that going forward even as Sarah says that you will wish to see the success of Maraga doing much better than what Maraga has done. We will change or rather we will have many more chief justices coming in. Let us look at the chief justice not as a person but as an office. Let us empower the office. Let us empower the office so that whatever comes from the office is seen as coming from the chief justice's office not from the individual who hosts the office. Enough of the comparison. Let's talk about now the CS Maraga. Two things or three things. The nullification of the elections that is 2017 and the advisory that he gave the other day and the complaints that have been there from the appointment of judges and the budget cuts which has been said over time again that it has become an impediment in expediting the cases in terms of the budget. They need money but they can't have the need judges, they don't have and then the respect that has been given to the office of the chief justice. Now first things to look into is the recent advice to the president I want to begin with you Jack when he gave this advisory. Do you think he was trying to find some position like I still have a say because many people are saying he is trying to be relevant? Not necessarily trying to to communicate his position but I think it is following what is written in the constitution. Article 261 sub article 7 mandates him to advise the president to dissolve parliament in these circumstances or rather in these circumstances. So by advising the president to dissolve parliament I think Maraga was acting from the contents of the constitution and it is up to the president to refer to the constitution which I believe he has read and understands what it says and do what is needy for what is expected of him. Though it is a big it is rather an awkward position that we are in as a country because at the moment we have a lot of issues that we need to deal with as a country even the country doesn't have money if we dissolve parliament today that means we have to hold an election I don't think we have that money to hold an election but according to the constitution that is what is required of the president to dissolve parliament because they are failing before them. Secondly Maraga did not just advise the president to dissolve parliament out of his own will or his own resolution Remember there have been petitions before him five of them last year from individuals and one petition this year came from the Loso site of Kenya asking him to advise the president to dissolve parliament so he acted in respect of these petitions that have been written in the constitution Now Osiras do you think the CJ was trying to find his place and is it fair to call for a dissolvement of parliament at such a time? When you champion for something you need to work and ensure it is well implemented We championed for this constitution in 2010 and then we should adhere to the constitution because it serves us for him he did what is right as it is envisioned in the constitution and that is the plight of the common one engine When he ended the ruling on 2017 about the nullification of election he looked into the evidence that was stable and advised the IBC on what to do which didn't do up to now and as I've only said we shall talk about the ills of IBC when election will never fail us but right now no one is talking about IBC the parliament that needs to look into IBC issues is seated comfortably discussing other things the civil society that needs to talk about the IBC itself seated comfortably like there is no issue and there is a very big issue constitutionally when we look at the IBC issue when when subs delivery will be done by the same IBC it will be it has not done well IBC has conducted several by elections and they will be conducting so in Mombasa which no one has complained about okay so these are some of the things that we need to look into so constitutionally he has tried to ensure that the constitution is followed to the latter and that's why you've seen him the issue those court orders to even our leaders who don't obey the courts so he has tried on his own to follow the constitution to the latter and that is what you want the only biggest problem we have is the loopholes in the constitution that are not fully implemented and when this question is fully implemented then Kenya will be safe but we have just to add on that I think I fully agree with Sairas that we have the best constitution and the only problem is the implementation of the constitution and respect of the same constitution and I think I don't know if I should bring in this because I don't understand why we are clamoring for another constitutional change when we haven't fully implemented the constitution that we have right now we are calling it inclusivity inclusivity that is what we call it that's the most perpetuated agenda well inclusivity will not solve the problems that we have in this country unless we change our behaviour as a people still right or new the current regime has been accused time and again of defying code orders this particular advice by CJ Maragatu the president do you think what you will be at the attitude well I can't speak for the president because the decision lies with him and mine will just be to ask the president to do what is expected of him by the constitution do you think it is fair for us to have a by election such a time at this particular time I don't think it is fair and so even if the president did not follow the advice of the CJ I think a process should be put in place to bring people on board all stakeholders to discuss this matter and have a way out on the issue rather than the legislation that inform the CJ advisory so people should come on the table and talk about this come up with the solution if not if we don't have a way out sometimes it is said that there is no gain without pain then we can take it we can go for a by election if the president so dissolve the parliament code orders have been disregarded in the past many of them, a number of them has been mentioned this particular one will hit and that's what I want to agree with the statement beta MP gave in parliament the other day we should not personalize the advisory of Maraga to the president but rather look at it the way we are supposed to look at it constitutionally in other words code orders have been ignored and this government has been known for ignoring the code orders which is a disobedience and that's why I only say let us live by example for chief Justice Maraga I think now this is the time he now needs to borrow advice from Mtunga now this is where mediation needs to come in why am I saying so? the parliamentary service commission met and decided to file a petition regarding the same advisory which is the constitutional as well so this is now where now these people need to sit down and discuss this issue because this chief justice was issued an advice to the president parliamentary commission has gone to the same court which is headed by the president so we need this now brings a quagmire to us as the citizens because we are the ones who are suffering remember what is the push today in the same thing that will be pushed in someone's advantage today we are championing for the that's gender and we see what we always forget we take the gender thing to be pegged on our sisters our mothers the female gender that's where we get it wrong but if we can sit down and look at the issue of gender in a very sober way actually we have to think critically but now my biggest question is the gender rule that has not been implemented the persons who are in parliament today were voted were elected members by as people who failed and or I should have voted for it's a culture that we have in this country we have many tribes culturally which is a very bad practice or a very bad culture that we have in some areas like from where I come my home county which is Busia county we have seven constituencies out of the seven constituencies none is represented by a woman so you see in this they divide but because of the culture that maybe exists in this local area there is this belief of it must be yes men are leaders which is a very bad notion so I think I still go back to the constitution and that is why now Maradha's advisory comes in the constitution mandated the parliament to come up with a law that will balance the leadership in both parliaments but it has not been done if it had been done by then once they assumed office in parliament if they had passed the law balancing the parliament as the constitution says then we wouldn't be at where we are now maybe we would have had a formula representation would be balanced say as you respond to that tell me if the electorates happen to elect male gender only at some point the parliament will have the appointees now should the appointments be centered to the female gender for us to achieve that gender let me say this he has come out very clear on that point and I want to ask the same question even if parliament is dissolved today will we achieve the gender gender role I'll tell you now because of the the concerns he has raised I happen to come from Bungama County and you don't have an MP who is a woman apart from the women there and even the women reposition was contested in Bungama Bayaman that's a serious idea he came out clearly to elaborate that the constitution says a person we represent the the interest they didn't specify any person who has interest for women how many votes did he get he was bad where the IBC was bad he mentioned something earlier in our conversation about civic education civic education should be conducted but now let me say the civil society should come up hand in hand team up with the IBC team up with the judicial service commission team up with the law set of Kenya because these are some of the why did I mention the two the law set of Kenya understands the law the judicial service commission ensures the law the constitution is fully implemented and the law is adhered to so when the civil society teams up with these now to carry out a civil education to our people and tell them so that we get out of these stereotypes then we shall be able to achieve this gender because you never know tomorrow my daughter may decide to become a leader does she have to go for the women seat only and yet she can be an MP we've seen women who have done good work we have Dr. Naomi Shaban she's done exemplary work as an MP by then leave along right now she's a woman but then she was an MP she did an exemplary job so there are people who can give service delivery to the people but achieving it it's another theory that needs to be implemented that needs to be worked on and that's why I call upon the civil society to sit down go back to the drawing board because this is a very serious concern constitutional concern Jacka as you weigh into that kindly paint us to a picture of if the president goes by the advisory and today dissolves the parliament ok, before I go I delve on that just word on what she was saying even if today we had the solution of parliament and we went back to election I don't think we will come back with the realization of the agenda rule and picture of if the president dissolves parliament today I think we are going to be in an awkward situation as a country because not everyone else means well for this country it's my belief because we have selfish individuals among us for example today if the president decided to dissolve parliament IBC on it's side is not fully constituted and someone someone will run to court put an injunction which will be pushed for one year or maybe someone just got to court and run to have IBC disbanded so that it is afresh reconstituted and if it is disbanded the BBI will have to wait so we will not have IBC in place we don't have parliament we don't try and even if the parliament is not there today we don't have I don't think we have budget in place for an election if an election was called unless parliament is in place to approve the budget where we will get money to hold the same the same election that we will be wanting to have after the dissolution of parliament so I think we are going to be in a very awkward situation but the blame still solely lies on the same parliament had they done what was expected of them by then then we wouldn't be at where we are so there is also lack of political goodwill because if there was political goodwill this is something that cannot be achieved through a fair election I'm not saying not fair election, a free election I'm not saying free and fair because there is no free and fair election in Kenya it's only free we are free to choose but we don't choose fairly we are still not going to achieve a third gender role a formula has to be put in place to do the balancing and I think this is where a brain should be put together and come with a formula or an arithmetic to balance the two parliament another question that people keep on asking is that as much as we call upon to give women their positions what have they done the position that have been given what have they done to the society they are the same women reposition they are the same who are accused of corruption even the governors we didn't expect to have women governors being quoted on serious corruption allegations so it also tins their image because when you come there you should lead by example that women cannot be mentioned in corruption cases but we can deliver this one will motivate the society when a woman goes for when a man goes for let me say a gubernatorial position he will pick a fellow man as deputy when a woman goes for a gubernatorial position he will pick a man for deputy where the reverse you see so it's like they don't believe in themselves what if a woman will pick a fellow woman to be deputy you saw in kitui tenu din gilu pikt a man as a deputy but much the late laboso picked the current governor as a deputy ike renyaga he picked the deputy as a man and when a man is vying he picks a fellow man then why can't we say the governor is a woman the deputy is a woman let them also lead let them also come out of those inferiority complex they surrounded themselves with for us to achieve this for us to achieve this which it should also be practiced by themselves not only wait for because we are the first run up then you will be given a nation slot in the nomination then another thing that also look at when you talk of political, when you mention of political goodwill is and I've already stated we need to institutionalize our political parties ok because political parties say they have a stronger say to some extent in some areas let me say for example in some regions jubiliyeda say in some regions same to ANC and other parties Waiban and the rest so if these parties are institutionalized whereby they will come and say nominations are done fairly and squarely because there is no democracy in nominations I can tell you that one for free and when nominations are held if a woman is competing if she wins the nomination let her be given the certificate ok so if this for example for Waipa that's good in Ukamban let's say we are going to start by giving lots 4 or 3 women in this women get out and compete and go out and tell your people these are also individuals because we need to achieve our constitutional mandate these are our people we need also to elect them we need also to test them let us go to the western region we have Fort Kenya, we have ANC and ODIM so let them also talk and that's why now we need political parties as institutions not individual individuals having so much power on political parties for example if our parties in Kenya were like the ones in Tanzania party in Kenya were like the ones in South Africa ANC Ganas follow the suit then we could not be talking about all these things these things can be achieved on political parties when they become institutions but if they are the way they are we shall never achieve this agenda as we finish up let's look at some of the comments from our viewers now we have Emma James he says this is CJ Maraga have never seen or had anywhere Maraga having a chat with Kenya youths Kenya's youths where does he get all the advice from as far as judisha leadership is of concern a youth he is asking can you tell us so what role does the judisha has to play with the youth youths I never have kind words for my fellow youths we are complacent we wait to be given handouts we wait to be called in a meeting the first question I will ask what am I going to get I am not looking at the idea I am going to table but I am looking at what am I going to get okay it is much important of what I am going to get then what I am going to give out so we need to get out of that kukun we need to realize ourselves we need to know that we are the future of the nation we are the builders of the nation if you are young you are supposed to build a nation because when you are old you need now to watch at what you build now start thinking on how to build but you need to sit down relax your mind and watch what you build and become philosophical what I would just want to tell viewer Emma youth youth will stand up to something and stop standing up to someone because most youth of this nation don't stand up to anything just like Sayra is saying even today as a political activist if I convened a sitting so that we chat away on an issue with the youth just he said he mentioned the first question will be what are we being given who is coming and what is he giving who is coming and what is she giving so let us confront issues as individuals not because someone else is there confronting the issue so let us stand up to something we have Joki watching from Eldoret he says Maraga is fine and all his rulings are wise for an example wanting to dissolve the parliament on concern of the gender rulings has him fair for me he has done a good job we agree with this he acted according to the constitution this is another one on the youth as well Bang Bang he says no CJ Maraga has taken youths enough what else should he be doing to the youth you see there ever I asked your question one day all those things concerning the youth you are not you are not 50 years you are below 30 if you are reaching 30 then you are reaching 30 now but I asked your question who held your hand and told you you can come and work at the station see yourself self driven so we need to be self motivated let me see an issue that is pinching me because the issue that is pinching me the same issue that is pinching you and if I don't rectify the issue today it will really affect me tomorrow and when it affects me tomorrow it will be pinching my grandchild my child so these are some of the things that we need to sit down and that's why I always keep on calling upon the youths let us get out of our comfort zone let us get out of the handouts let us not believe in the handouts let us use our minds in the right way the orengos that you see today who were championing for the constitution long time ago he came to parliament when he was around 29 years old so when did he start championing for the constitution he was a young boy by then so this is what we need to do so this is what we need to be doing right now as youths let us not just sit down waiting for discussing how because how many youths sit down to discuss the constitution I'll tell you out of ten one but how many youths sit down to discuss Manchester United Arsenal Liverpool how many youths sit down to discuss that how many youths sit down to discuss about let me say kavi model how many but very few discuss the constitution something that affects them daily alright let's finish up by going through all of them Eman James was watching from Mombasa thank you so much they asked me from Machat thank you Jabani Mukiza Teshutoni Nyeli Bang Bang and Agustin Kavifia thank you so much for watching and of course I also have a fan who wakes up every morning to watch it you know kwaumka usubusi among many other firms that I have come to non-risk but thank you so much for always watching our show and getting something from us here being a youth you need to learn as much as you can thank you gentlemen for coming and of course trying to picture the kind of situation we are in looking into the leadership the judicial leadership of CJ Maragas compared to CJ former CJ Doctor Mutunga how things have been how things are and maybe what we expect and even today we'll be expecting the results from the conference where the president is holding in terms of COVID-19 restrictions whether the kavi will continue and even if or whether our clubs will be open or the economy in general whether it will be opened they have been my guest Jack Momali political activist and political analyst Cyrus Litzua thank you so much for keeping us company and of course for your comments many maize deriva Hillary I'll be seeing you again in the evening for now a very good morning to you have yourself a very good day goodbye