 Recording in progress. Perfect. We'll get started. Hello, everybody. Welcome to Brain Club. And since there are a bunch of new folks registered, who are going to be enjoying this on recording, I'll introduce myself. Even though I know the folks, the folks here with us all at once, synchronously. I'm Mel Hauser. I use she they pronouns and I am executive director here at all brains belong to mom. And welcome to Brain Club, our weekly community education program where we talk about everyday life brain stuff. And I'm just going to share slide. Never queued up. Never ever. All right. This topic. We is a long time coming. We've been wanting to do a brain club on this for a while. Because school bullying is something we think about and talk about here in the A to B village. Like a lot. And it, it, it, it's as we'll soon hear about, has some very significant implications. Which is why it's really important to us to have this community conversation. So this is part of the theme we've been taking on this month about big conversations. This summer, we, we, we, we took on kind of like zooming out, rethinking some of our big systems of society and of what it means to be a healthy connected community. And so we've been identifying some of the assumptions that get made and unlearning a lot of that. So-called brain rules of our society. And, and, and now. Applying that to these, these hard conversations. Because there are many things that have, have been going on for a really long time, but just because they've been going on for a really long time, doesn't mean that they're healthy. They're not healthy. And this, this is an opportunity to zoom out and rethink the factors that contributed to these things. And where do we go from here? And because we do have a few new folks to bring club, just go over some ground rules. You can participate however you are comfortable. You can have your video on or off. And even if your video is on, you can have your video on or off. You can have your video on or off. You can have your video on or off. You can form to any kind of like default format of participation. We, we in fact actively disparage. Masking or complying with any kind of like social defaults, like eye contact or eye contact with the camera. So in fact, we, you know, please walk, move, fidget, take breaks, and you can communicate however you are most comfortable, whether that be on meeting and shouting it out, typing in the chat box, gesturing, you know, you know, you know, there's really important to us in addition to affirming all aspects of identity. It's really important that we respect and protect one another's access needs. And so while you are welcome to talk about anything that you're comfortable talking about, we just ask that if there's anything that you personally experienced as traumatic or distressing, we just ask you to give a content warning to give everyone heads up so that others can then either listen with informed consent or turn their sound off or leave the room for a while and then I can, I'll let everyone know in the chat box when that topic is over. But the other thing about access needs is that since we only have 60 minutes together, we are going to ask you to be focusing on solutions tonight. This topic can be, you know, we could talk about this topic and the description of this topic, you know, for a year, we could have a year long brain club describing this problem because of how common and how profoundly adversely impactful this is. And we really want to talk about concrete specific solutions today. Before we start that, just going to show you as Matthew was talking about before, if you would like closed captioning and they're not popping up automatically, depending on what version of zoom you have, look for either the live transcript closed captioning icon or the more dot, dot, dot and choose show subtitles. And if they are popping up automatically still, you can, you can do the same thing to turn them off. All right, so I will do a quick introduction and, you know, big, big thanks to David and Theodore and Sophia for, for their help in putting together some of our background literature that I'll frame this conversation around and then we'll jump right into community problem solving. Quick recap. For those new brain club this month, we've been talking about access needs. So access needs, anything required to meaningfully and fully participate in one's environment or community and everybody, regardless of how your brain learns things, everybody has access needs. And this can be things in the physical environment, emotional communication, you know, any kind of things that are what you and your nervous system require to participate. And when we think about safety and everything that goes into that safety from anything, including bullying is a prerequisite for inclusion. So when we talk about inclusion and belonging being the goal, safety is a prerequisite for inclusion. And so that is why we at all brains belong think that this is something that we can't go any longer without talking about because safety from bullying is a prerequisite for inclusion. And when we talk about bullying, what we're talking about here, we're talking about a repetitive pattern of aggression that creates an imbalance of power or strengths. And this can take any form. It can be verbal, physical, cyber bullying. It can be social or relational bullying, influencing reputation, for example. Sometimes there are some myths about what counts as bullying. It can take any form. And in 2019, the data was that one in five kids is bullied at school, one in five. And this is even higher in marginalized youth. And so, and that's across the board in all of the many ways in which people are othered in marginalized society. So whether we're talking about autistic, ADHD, kids with learning disabilities, students of color, LGBTQ or trans youth across the board, more than one in five kids is bullied at school. That is not safe at school. Bullying is associated with higher rates of depression, anxiety, sleep disturbances. And I really want to highlight this, suicide. Experiencing bullying in school across the board at least doubles the risk of suicide. And that's why suicide is the second leading cause of death and adolescence. And bullying is associated with negative mental health for all involved. Those who are bullied, those who bully others, those who are bullied and bully others. And even being the bystander in a setting where bullying is tolerated. There's literature that shows that living in a community that tolerates bullying is associated with having worse academic performance and lower academic engagement. This impacts everyone. Great question. And seeing the chat, what is the leading cause of death for adolescents? It's accidents. And thanks for the question. So not only is there a short-term impact of bullying, but even can be a lifelong impact. So now we're going to shift with that really treacherous background, focus on solutions. And there have been members of our local community who have been starting this conversation for a while now. And Adrian, I wonder, do you want to say anything? Actually, you're like, I don't want to say anything ever. Yeah, I'll just chime in. So we work with Mel and all brains belong. Thankfully, we found you all. You've been a saving grace for my family and my daughter, who's 14. And we attend, well, they, she attends the Montpelier public school system. And last year in eighth grade was horrific for her in that she was bullied consistently for three or four months. And she finally was brave enough to tell us what was happening. She tried to deal with it herself and have a voice and have power, but in the end, nothing helped. And so we intervened both myself and Mel and really like a whole army of people to start kind of a conversation with the school district and trying to resolve a lot of these systemic issues. But it's huge. It is a huge complex puzzle of policies and lack of training and understanding within our school system. That it's just going to be a pretty big uphill battle. But I think if we think about small incremental changes over time, I feel like we could possibly make change in this big system. And we did create a padlet that had community input. I've been talking to lots of people over the past few months and right now there's, I can't see much change happening. So I'm hoping this conversation continues where, you know, we continue to build momentum and really demand some change because it's not, it's really just not fair to our kids. Thank you for sharing that, Adrienne. And I really, I thank you for your vulnerability in driving these conversations that need to be had. And Matthew is adding in the chat that within educational system statewide that this is a problem, right? This is certainly not specific to, you know, this is not just statewide. It's nationwide. That bullying happens in all places. And what I, and so what I'm going to share with you is the input that Adrienne and the folks locally who have had several in-person community brainstorms and an ongoing virtual, I'm going to like just give a tour of the input that has come in from the community thus far. And then we will open up to for more ideas. All right. So this is a platform called Padlet that I had that is new to me. It's more visually pleasing, I think, than Jamboard, which we usually use. Okay. So in no particular order, I'm just literally reading. And can you guys see this? Okay. Trauma-informed instruction. If you see something, say something. So interestingly, there's been, there's literature on that about bystander training and the efficacy of peer intervention. And in fact, there's been independent literature showing that the presence of a peer that does not intervene, that increase, that like allows the perpetuation of bullying. Recognizing others' accomplishments, I wonder if that's like speaking to like regulation, self-concept, self-esteem. Provide one-on-one support or smugglers. Yeah, so really just thinking about making sure that, I think that also is speaking to like the theme of regulation of, you know, for, you know, since we all have different brains that learn differently in settings where universal design is not present, there may be significant dysregulation that comes from the educational experience being cognitively dysregulating. Sure. There's a suggestion of a code of conduct agreement, modeling inclusion every day. And there's literature on positive climate. We can talk about that. Teach the parents. Recognizing our diversity. Lots of role-playing and workshops led by, interesting, like so older peers on educating younger peers, regulating cell phones. Yeah, I think that is important given the increasing prevalence of cyberbullying, more arts, socio-emotional learning, being more aware of what you say is an aspect of mindfulness and self-awareness. So there's a comment about looking at like responses to bullying. So certainly we can talk about that because what we know is that punishment does not work. Punishment does not work. Education about the impact of bullying and what leads one to bully others, including being bullied by others' respect. Providing a course, so education, prevention. Education about, so we got some duplication here, yeah. Lots of suggestions for education and training. Yeah, so having more administrative presence, walking around to be in classrooms, sending the message to students that they're supported by those in charge. So that is literature on supervision and particularly because more bullying occurs in settings where there's secrecy. But not always, that's not across the board at all. So more discussion of code of conduct. Yeah, make the school rule. Yeah, I think that's a zero tolerance and no tolerance policy, yeah. Clear understanding of what bullying is and clear boundaries of tolerance. Yeah, I think that because there is some mythology about, you know, that maybe this is developmental, you know, or in any way to be expected, whereas, no. Education, restorative justice and inclusion rather than restorative policies, yeah. More discussion of education. Education about diversity, taking this time to understand all perspectives and context. Training focused on prevention, peer programs with rotating leadership. Focus on the primacy of the parent, you know, primacy of relationships, connection. And maybe, maybe continue free lunch, angry people is really just talking about, you know, I think that I think that's addition really speaks to nervous system regulation. And I think like a zoomed out look at regulation. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to put in the chat, a link to this tablet that folks can directly contribute to. And I'm just going to open this up. And we will, we can take notes. We can just talk about this. You can type in the chat ideas that you have of concrete suggestions or things that you've seen work well. Like I always think that a bright spotting approach when there are, you know, local cultures where bullying is not so much a problem. If anyone's ever seen that culture, I would love to know what works about that. I'll also keep the tablet up if folks are doing that. Yeah. So I see a comment in the chat. It's so important for the adults to model between themselves collaborative problem solving and not bullying. Yeah, I think that all too often. You know, even though we brought this conversation up about the bullying problems of school-aged children, we totally live in a world where adults bully one another. And, you know, it's also okay if we want to start the conversation there about some practices that work in like workplace settings that actually work. You know, just, I think it's, I think that nothing's off the table. So if I think that when we think about adults modeling so much, right? So from, you know, the experiences of co-regulation, later self-regulation, all of these things that if we're not modeling ways of treating other people, that's really hard. And what I can say is dysregulated people don't have access to their cortex fully, right? So if I can see where even the most well-intentioned adult is maybe just trying to survive and self-regulate, it's very hard to explicitly model strategies. So maybe like zooming out and saying, is everyone regularly? And if not, what might go into that, Sierra? Hi, everybody. I just, I think that's a really good point, Mel, and people who are bringing it up in the chat. And it's something that I think about a lot as a, when I first started going to nursing, there was a lot of talk about how much bullying there is between nurses and adults. And really the research showed that most of that comes from burnout and most of that comes from people not getting their basic needs met. And so looking at that similarly where we're targeting in these school-aged kids, we're targeting getting people's needs met, we're targeting burnout, we're targeting a system that's not built for them and a system that's not made for their love and safety in mind, and there's so much that goes into that. By the way, Adrienne, I wonder if as the moderator of the padlet, I just typed that into the padlet and it says, you need to have yourself approved. So I wonder if, yeah, anyway, so if you want to moderate that, that'd be amazing because I wonder if people are typing, we're not seeing it. Laura and then Matthew after Laura. Yeah, I'm just thinking about my own, like my five year old being at daycare and sometimes coming home with stories. And I don't honestly know sometimes if she is the bully or the victim in her version of stories. And I think like communication between parents and teachers can be so important to know what actually happened so that I can counsel my child best on how they handle the situation because I think there are times that she comes home feeling victimized and then when I get more details realize that maybe she started out kind of in the wrong and then felt victimized by how people reacted to that. And I think sometimes like my reaction could be very different in terms of how I coach her to respond to things knowing the full story, if that makes sense. So I feel like that parent coaching and then communication between parents and teachers being so important. I would love to hear from, because I know we have some early childhood educators in the crowd, I would imagine. I don't even, I mean, I don't know what I just had to eat like five minutes ago. Like I wonder, like how does that play out? Because it's almost like my view is that the way that kids treat each other starts like in toddlerhood and like that model of inclusion and like how we regard everything starts like that young. And I wonder if like the rate limiting factor is, you know, how the systems that make it really hard to even collect that feedback, let alone give it to families to generalize at home. Turtle Island crew, are you there? Hi. Hi. Hi. We're here. What do you think about like the interpersonal conflicts of really young children? Like how does that play out? So, and how practical is it to have the details of the interpersonal conflict make their way home? Yeah. I think, yeah, we were sort of chatting as folks were sharing. And I think that's exactly right. That particularly at very young ages, children are experimenting with social dynamics and their own dynamics. And so the context is super, super important. What was happening before, during and after. And so I totally agree that when parents and teachers are in close communication about really beautiful things and then about more challenging things too, that can only be more helpful because you might hear something or see something and make an assumption when in reality, something different was happening. And there's just a lot of nuance, particularly at that really, really young age when they're still learning all of these different aspects and exploring and experimenting with social and power dynamics. That is the point that I was about to bring up. And thanks for setting up that point, because it is, in really young kids, preschool age kids, when we're really thinking about, it's normal development includes experimenting with power and having a healthy sense of agency and having opportunities to, you know, to have agency, to have freedom and choice, so that it's not like a hurtful exertion of power over someone else, so that there's like healthy experiences of power, I think is also really important for those really, really young kids. And I'm just, I really appreciate that. And I think that that's really important. And I think that that's really important. I think that that's really important for those really, really young kids. And I'm just reading in the chat that it's so much easier to hear the challenging things when you've heard beautiful things from that same teacher or person. Yeah, so it just, it makes it, it's all information. And thinking about it that it's not like a right and a wrong way to be in a given social situation. It really, like I think that framing everything in, at that, you know, so many things, but everything at that age about conflicting access needs. Your need was this, this is, this person's need was this, like it's not, it's so this way it's not like a judgment thing or like a shame thing, because shame this regulates nervous systems too. Matthew, thank you so much for waiting. So you have Matthew and then Turtle Island crew after Matthew. Yes, yes. Thank you, Mel, Mel Hauser for bringing this up. It's also, it's not when people, children, students, high schoolers, you know, all in that, you know, bully each other. It's like a counterproductive. It's one is counterproductive. It doesn't help anyone else. Two, it's like a protective measure. It's like, you know, I've been bullied so much in my life, you know, I've been bullied so much in my life. It's like, you know, I've been bullied so much in my life, you know, I had a bully to basically get myself out, you know, of these, these, these, you know, conflicts that are within myself or within others, because bullying, you know, in some reality it's a protective measure that some people have, you know, because they experience it at a young age or in life itself. It's like, you know, it's a counterproductive, like, you know what, I don't want to become that bully, but I have, but bullying is a way to protect myself that some people do that as a way to, you know, to keep them from being bullied. It's like I said, system within a system is intertwined of where the actual, you know, cause is, it's hard to disseminate against, you know, what is bullying tactics within a bullying tactic versus. I'm trying to use this as a protective counter measure of bullying so I don't feel bullied ever again. And that is what I've been seeing across the state. It's like bullying, people that bully each other are trying to protect each other. They're trying to protect themselves from being, going into that, you know, process once again. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And it is very, very common for, for people who bully others to be bullied themselves. And when we really think about how hurt people, hurt people, really thinking about how punishment and shame further dysregulating and isolating someone who is already dysregulated, that's why that doesn't work. I'm going to turn it off. I'm going to turn it off. Turn it off. Turn it off. Choral Allen crew back to you. Thanks, Mal. I wanted to add to that. I think a lot of times. Children, and particularly young children, but I would, I would say all the way through up are also playing out what they're observing and wondering about. As an educator, that's a really important question is sort of the why, not necessarily the what. And I think that goes across to all ages. And one of the things we do at Turtle Island is really emphasize that collaborative problem solving, not only with our teachers amongst one another, but also with the children to give that autonomy. And so that gets learned that you do have agency, you do have the ability to use your voice, if comfortable. But again, I think one of the important things to recognize is, does everyone have what they need? And in this society, this culture, this structure that we're working in, it's not true. And so you can't rely on the fact that people are going to be regulated all the time, or are making the best decisions in that moment, maybe they haven't eaten. So I think it's a really important thing to peel back and think about some of these structures that are sort of isolating us in the way. Absolutely. And when we think about basic prerequisites of safety, there's so much that go into that. And if you can't look at bullying or school bullying in a vacuum. And we know that like framing, framing conversations around having needs met. And this can be basic needs in in the way that are often thought about food, housing, and connection, right? Like connection is a basic need. And since we know that bullying happens across across contexts and settings. And I also want, because sometimes I hear like, oh, bullying is not happening, because everyone has food and housing. It's like, well, no, well, bullying is happening because the people who are experiencing it are describing it. That is their truth. That is the anyway. So I think that connection and validating the experiences of kids, like when they describe what's happening, if the kids says they don't feel safe, they are not safe. Sarah has in the chat such great points relationship building with parents is an important part of being a child care provider. Sorry, I'm like, I'm delayed in catching up in the chat. Sorry about that. One thing that I would love to see is once you get to middle school, when a student says that it's happening now, I'm still hearing these crazy stories at middle school. And I'm like, what is happening? If a child is coming to the parent or even a friend saying, I'm not feeling safe in school because this person is making me feel very uncomfortable. That's a very clear message for a 12-year-old, 13-year-old person to say. And our society right now, and if I hear this one more time, I think my brain might explode, is, oh, that's just the way they are. Like, that's boys will be boys. And I'm like, oh, my God. So it would be so nice to have, I don't even know what it is. But people have their lived experiences and have people say, oh, I survived middle school like you can too. We have to change that. I don't know what it is, but that saying and that feeling, I truly believe that it doesn't have to be that way. And if there was some training or awareness around if someone comes to you as a child and says, I'm not feeling safe in school, immediately there should be action taken or a resolution or those conversations that may be going on in early child care. That is not happening at middle school at all. Something has completely been dropped off. And it's always like, well, it's fine. You'll get over it. Just stay strong. And like, what? Like it's really terrible lessons we're teaching our kids. And I just hope that, I don't know if I could wave my magic wand, there'd be some type of training or education around how to handle some of the, you know, those, those situations as the kids get a little bit older, or even in elementary school. I don't know where it stops, but it does. Well, I don't think it does stop, because I think that, you know, across developmental levels, the, the, the language used may change. You know, so, so, so, you know, as kids develop and their relationships change, it's like, each time there's a recalibration of relationships, there needs to be different kinds of training. So like in younger kids, it's like a, it's like a top down, you know, here's, here's how the world works. And, and, and like, responses like tell a trust to the adult, like that might work for younger kids. And then older teams, they don't do that. So there needs to be like just anyway, thinking through the developmental lifespan of, of, of like a differential responses. There's, in the chat, Laura shares, Adrienne, it's so true. I still get chills thinking back to my middle school experiences. And I think one of the hardest parts is that parents involvement can ultimately make it worse. And that feels awfully helpless as a parent, right? Because of retaliation is, is, is a thing. And often, I encourage families, patient families to like, have, have, have that discussion when there are reports made to school of like, explain to me and describe to me what the plan is for preventing retaliation, because like sometimes it's, it's, it's not thought about. And there's a question for you, Adrienne, are middle school teachers and staff getting training currently where you are? I don't know. I know, and Mel, you know, the, the, it's, what is it, IBS or it's, they're trained very, are the school district that I live in, they belong, they believe in, um, gosh, what the heck is that called? It's not PBIS. Yeah, it's like the punishment kind of like, oh, positive behavior. Is that, yeah. Yeah. So PBIS is, um, not the most neuro culturally competent method. That is what I have to say about that. And when we're really thinking about, um, hi, um, when I really think about, um, it's so hard to like, ideate and be diplomatic and speak at the same time. I have a kind of brain for whom like, all those things are at one point. We met with our school district and we said it was below any very, very bluntly into our school district. And we tried to try to encourage our school district multiple times to look at different trainings and support for our teachers in terms of like, um, you know, Jenny and I were, we're going to be taking the training Jenny Sheehan who just joined us on CPS, the Ross Green model and thinking about how do we incorporate that maybe just through our own avenues of influence. We do have a bullying and harassment policy at our school district and I know that the teachers are trained on the policy. It's like a 30 minute training once a year by the school district's attorney. But they do use that's, that's it. That's all I know. And I'm sure there's other trainings throughout the year in terms of professional development and, you know, they're very big into restorative circles, but you know, if you're getting bullied, if you're getting bullied and you don't have a foundation, don't throw the everyone in the same room together to have a talk. Because that's not safe. Oh, it's terrible. That's what they wanted to do. I was like, yeah, though, let's not do that. Right. Right. Yes. You know, and, and sometimes when I talk with even my young patients who are being bullied, I asked them like, what do you think is going on there? Like, why do you think that's happening? Like, what do you think about kids who are mean to other kids? And it's, it's interesting because really young kids have the ability to essentially come up with the concept of hurt kids, hurt kids. And then as time goes by, it's like the longer that time goes by, my observation is that that, that lens shifts because there's the internalization of that there's something about me that is being treated this way. So I think that Adrian to your point about when a kid says that something's happening and a kid is, is, is, is, is, is naming that it's so important to validate that and to name that this is not their fault. This is a, this is a trauma. This is like any trauma. And I think that that is a conflict. That lens is not always shared with a kid, like naming it for the kid. Because like what we do not want is we don't want to drive a society of, of, of developing people to launch into the world that one don't trust their themselves, they like lose track of their intuition because of like all of the adults that have invalidated them of like, you don't, you don't know your reality, you're out of touch with your reality. It's really, that is really harmful. Long term, Laura. So I have a question that I don't know. I'm like thinking through my own childhood and my kids and all kinds of parenting things and how do you balance teaching a child to be true to themselves and to be themselves and wear what you want and do your hair the way you want express yourself the way you want while also teaching them like self-protection. Like I feel like I was taught to conform as a means of avoiding bullying and that has its own repercussions. Like how, what do you tell your patients or families or like teachers in the room? How do you balance that with like, there is safety in conforming, but then there are risks in conforming, too. Yeah, and I think that the difference between conforming and code switching is really important, right? So you're not changing who you are because there's something wrong with who you are. You may choose to do this or that as a strategy that gets you something or you may not. Not because there's like one right way of being, but I would also say that it's really very hard when, especially like as a parent, if you have been bullied, it's very hard to like not have that trauma response and like the fear and the like drive to want to protect your kids from harm that you yourself have experienced. But it ends up like I think for many people like driving in like some forms of intergenerational trauma in parenting dynamics because like our parents didn't deal with their stuff and they end with that they had with their parents and like then so on and so on and so on. Anyway, but I'd love to hear what others have to say about that, about how as a parent you can approach this balance of like your cortex says, I want you to be you, but your limbic system has some kind of response. This is Sierra. I can say that one thing I think about a lot when we talk about intergenerational trauma is pairing it with intergenerational healing and the idea that you're talking to your kids about bullying and talking to them about how like whatever you know the system is unfair, you know this is horrible and talking about the difference between code switching and conforming yourself to be somebody else. Just the fact that we're like talking to our kids about that is huge and a huge step in the right direction. And so I think I get a lot of comfort of knowing that like I don't have to have all the right answers to still be making a positive change. Yeah, because that is something that never that maybe was not done in a prior generation. In the chat, one of the most powerful things a parent can say is I believe you and you're also getting validation of what you shared, Sierra. Another comment, I often got told one thing and then shown another, like be yourself but then obvious cues to conform. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so totally. So it's, but it also like I think as a parent, like I'll give you an example, like if something I didn't do really, I didn't do very well. So we're in an outdoor group setting and Luna made a particularly loud noise and I gave feedback that like maybe it was not the most awesome thing to make that noise. My cortex like knows that that's not what I wanted to say. My limbic system A had a response to the noise itself and B had this like narrative of like I don't want to be perceived as the parent that let another kid get a noise made really close to their face. And so anyway, when I really, we were outside so it's going to be hard to like have a visual support on the wall but like the visual support I want to take around with me is that like my relationship with my child is the most important thing. It's the most important thing to me. And so if I, if my cortex could like remind my limbic system that like all day, I would do better at this topic. Thanks for nodding, Laura. I think what you were saying was interesting to me because when I think about being a kid and and avoiding being bullied and the things I did to avoid to watch and perceive and then participate in ways maybe that was out of my integrity for my own safety, it was like I probably I was probably having so many different conflicts within myself because on one hand my limbic system is going I don't I know that I would be a target because I'm already a fat kid and I'm already getting called fat and I already know I have no power because of that. But also if I don't join there's danger, you know, so it's sort of like how do you like teach kids their own responsibility to themselves in honoring the participation that they might not even feel good about, you know, participating in that way. Because I definitely would have stood up and had stood up in different times. But you lose your power so quickly, even if you're a kid who would stand up for somebody else. And as a social worker in school system, I experienced the exact same thing with the teachers like no teacher wanted the social worker to come in. And it was like you're dealing with the exact same thing professionally, as you did when you were a kid within the school setting. And so I think sometimes teachers or social workers or nurses, like there is that whole pecking order kind of normative behavior, it's the same it's can be the same dynamic. And I think if you're not drawing that dynamic out, like Sarah was saying like even in nursing school like being burnt out or, but I think it's just even like, how does inclusion start at the top like from the principal or from the teachers in them understanding their own relationship to themselves as being potentially bullied or being the bullier. And how does that reflect on the way that they're running their classroom and school. That is so well said, I have to like I'm going to like when I watch the video of this I really want to sit with that because I think that part of the paradigm that says if I don't bully I lose my power starts from where the power came from. So like, if the power came from power over someone else as opposed to something else that like in an earlier developmental stage could have could have been potentially grounded differently. You know, it's kind of like the difference between, you know, like something happens that doesn't go the way you want. And if if the self narrative which came from the narrative of others of like, you know, what's wrong with me, what's matter with me, why am I like this, that you're gonna have a different response. So I just kind of I think that your, your, your point is so important. And it sounds like since we know that many of the people who bully other people are bullied themselves, whether that's in school or outside of school, really like, like, like, like, almost like going more upstream of where did one sense of power come from and to Matthew's point about like, like bullying for safety like that is I mean, that's just, it's so common. So it's where does safety derive from where does power derive from and you know, I and teaching those concepts explicitly and really little kids like with my five year old, we talk a lot about power. You watch a lot of cartoons and we describe like the power dynamics amongst like villains and other characters. And so my five year old will literally be able to distinguish between like an evil character versus oh no, they're not a villain, they're just dysregulated mama, because we've been talking about it that way since the dawn of time. Laura. I'm also thinking through like little ways that we teach our kids to take back the power like I'm so I'm thinking of my son, but every time I do my daughter's nails, she wants them cut like the bride to get her to clipper nails is to have her painter nails. And now when my son gets his nails clipped, he wants to paint his nails. And my like gut heteronormative way of thinking is that if he paints his nails, he's going to get bullied. And so there's this immediate like, no boys don't do that, that then makes my child a bully of boys who do that like and so I've had to like try and do a lot of bias checking in myself and letting go of the idea and then embracing the power of like, yep, boys do do that and you can do that and I'm gonna make I'm gonna empower you with that instead of making it something you use to hold power over somebody else. Sierra and I both agree that that is such a great example, because it's like, like your first narrative, like the year, like your first draft is always going to be the thing that you laid down when you were a little kid. And, you know, your cortex might know that there is no right way to experience gender and that there's this distinction between gender identity, gender expression, and that these like, gender rise things like the way you dress or like your hair, your nails or whatever that they're actually like not an like there's just no reason for it. But like when we were kids, there was a different narrative and it got hardwired. And so like, yeah, I think you're just your cortex. When your cortex is offline, you don't have access to this this stuff because it's new. Yeah, Laura's adding, yeah, like actually who cares, but it took me so long to actually not care. Yeah, because especially when you were bullied for how you showed up in the world, of course, we're not going to want our kids to go through the painful experiences that we endured, of course. And it's, it's, it's like, the patterns, unless you like do that, like Sierra's point about the healing, the intergenerational healing, like doing the work of, of, of, of healing is, is probably an important part of that. So, so, so like, because probably your limits, like all of our limbic systems are going to keep getting triggered by the thing. And it's so hard. And so that's why I like talking about it, you know, this is like a common, a super common thing. Just, just look on Instagram, all the people posting about this, like this is a thing of, of intergenerational healing to rewrite those narratives. So, we've got a couple minutes left. I want to create some space if anyone else would like to, to share thoughts. Matthew. My thought is with bowling tactics across the board is when can we have that, those important discussions and conversations and topics within the, what you call bowling, bowling, bowling tactic system? And how can we know us as individuals teach students, the children about why we should not bully each other? Because in society, you know, it's like, you know, if I bully one person, then you're going to bully them all. And I don't, the way I look at it is we've got to get away from that narrative that, you know, narrative and paradox and bullying spectrum of how it is and how to, you know, how can we move away from that toxic system that's intertwined with, you know, with everyday life? How can we all, you know, educate, best educate the children in a way where it makes sense for them? Thank you. Yeah. And I think that like, like zooming out and thinking about developmentally appropriate, neuro culturally sensitive approaches right from the ground up, because safety, you know, when you feel on, you know, so when we, when we think about that connection and co-regulation experience, I think that is a place where this all starts to make sure that everybody has genuine connection in their lives with people who they can show up and feel safe with and that we don't expose people to to not have that sense of agency of getting out of unsafe environments. Because if the limbic system does not feel safe, it's because it's not safe. Matthew, then we're going to wrap up. Yep. Thank you. Yeah. What you said was that that's very important is, you know, that safety culture of our limbic systems, you know, of how to interact, you know, on a not only emotional level, but on a level where, you know, that that bullying, it's like, you know, it's a way to express ourselves in a negative way. And it's like, you know, we're trying to save ourselves from being hurt again. And it's like, you know, it's like, where's it's like, I'm lost. I need help. Where can I go from here? And what can I do to stop myself from, you know, not being hurt again, but I want to stop myself from actually bullying other people in the same way that I was treated. Thank you. Right. And I think that that narrative is one of the pathways. It's not the only pathway. And it's certainly not the, you know, it's an important part of the whole picture. And I think that one of what, you know, in preparing for tonight, I was reviewing the evidence or like, you know, it's like evidence based bullying prevention programs in schools, and there are a number of them out there. And one of the very common terms that's used is about positive culture. And there are actually instruments out there to assess positive culture and like of actually taking a baseline of sampling, not just the people that work in the environment, but actually sampling the kids. And we talked a lot about that. We talked a lot about that with different kinds of topics here, that like asking kids is, I think, a really important next step of this conversation. Because kids have incredible ideas. The wisdom of kids and teens is one of my favorite things in the world. So I think I would like to see that as one of the next steps of this conversation. Well, thank you all. Thank you all so much for being here and participating. And Adrienne, can folks continue to add to the padlet? Yeah, okay, cool. So I will, when I send out the recording, I will also send the padlet out. And do we have, are there plans for, I don't know if the kids in your life, then the people in their lives have looked at the padlet? And if there's anything else that kids, can the Brain Club attendees ask their kids and add ideas that way too? Yeah, I think it's open to anybody. And you know, I think what my vision was was to take that, at least for where my sphere of control is within the school district that I work in, or I'm not working, I don't work in the school district. Is to share it with the school board and because they're interested and they're trying to make change, but they don't know what to do. So I'm hoping this will be a little bit of a roadmap. And the great thing is that the leadership is open to this, like open to saying like, okay, I want community input and we need to do it differently. And I really appreciate that because we don't see that everywhere not to be taken for granted. But I think the more ideas, the better. So thank you all so much for being here. And we will see you next Tuesday. Bye!