 All right, we are now recording. We're starting an interview with Mr. Michael Sudbury We are in Oakville at the moment and The interviewer will be William McCray once again. So let's start with just a few simple questions So what is a please state your full name? Michael Peter Sudbury and What is your birthday? The 25th of October 1930, which would make you how old today? Thank you for And where were you born in Forest Hill in South of London and as a child, what did your parents do? my father worked for the Westminster Bank Originally and then for the Clearing House in London and My mother was secretary for Pride of getting married okay, and You as a child what did what were your pastimes in South of the south of London that covers quite a quite a period of time Originally I was interested in lighting by the model guide. There was a boy next door to me who built these beautiful Riders and I went with him So in action Did you ever think of getting into aeronautics? Not really Germany 33rd mission Which was rather sad But beyond that Cycling was an occupation that I enjoyed and me as well covered a lot of ground Over the years on the bicycle. Yeah, did you ever do some big treks? Yeah In high school in the summertime with friends we used to travel around Britain Wow cycle cycle from Kent to Devon On one occasion and up to Gloucestershire on another occasion staying in youth hostels Watching in cold water in the morning Yeah sleeping on the palliases But it was great fun And that yeah, no, I'm a big I'm a big cyclist as well. Mm-hmm glad to see another cyclist and When did you start showing an early passion or did you ever show an early passion for? Sciences or engineering or Yes Family was scientifically oriented I think because both my brothers Took physics and they were older. They were younger. Oh, yeah, okay Well, my mother was very interested in in science, too And what did you like specifically about science any subjects or Well, I had a very good chemistry teacher at high school He kept us on their toes Yeah, what wide awake we also had a good physics teacher. This isn't high school It's often the teacher that I creates the interest a yes, yes And So tell me a bit about high school. So you you really got into chemistry and physics Yeah They pretty system How you studied for for school leaving certificate For five years and then if you wish to go on to higher education, then you stay for another two years Specialized okay, so I took chemistry and physics as a general one of About seven subjects in the junior school and then When they specialize for the last two years, it was strictly science. Okay chemistry physics That's and you were planning on going into what had University? I Haven't to clear a plan Father was said I should make up my mind what curve will career I should take and If if I couldn't make up my mind then sure there was a place for me in the bank and that Stimulated my thinking because you didn't want that. That's right. Okay so I Got got the government had produced careers for men and women series series a little booklets and I got Serious one for one weekend and went through it and divided into possible problems and improbables and The only three that careers that appeared to me were one one non-ferrous mining agriculture All in the resources The one that seemed the best fit was the non-ferrous mining When I finally graduated from high school Talked to the principal University In place The professor of metallurgy quarrel Future suggested Canada was the place to go and I had it appeared to me because we have connections there had cousins So There was a course that was organized by the Ontario mining Association some of students for some students at that time and one of the places I had some of students as replacements for regular workers when they were on vacation was at the parking bridge Got a position there for the summer was that that was that a summer position after you finished your yeah Okay, so you just finished So Very much enjoyed that summer. What was your job at Falcon Rich? Okay, I Spent many nights picking wood and steel off the mine belt To protect the crushes And at the end of the summer Yeah, yeah, you like the climate Okay, so you haven't you haven't seen December January February Yeah, you have to you have to the people who are miserable during the winter in Canada people who don't do Exactly who don't you don't enjoy the snow Right on Yeah, lots to do in Sudbury if you like winter. That's for sure So did you apply to what position? After the summer I Middle experimental engineer was the title and they worked out of a lab with Roy Leifert On quality control Checking the check on the way scales and checking the range and concentrations In fact that was initially and then I got into Development book We're interested in a periodite separation At that time we were making quite a low grade concentrate three percent three three three and a half percent nickel for the smaller and The aim was to to upgrade that by removing third Was involved in an investigation of magnetic separators to take the energy to the magnetic properties of Ferreira and So that that led to the installation of Mag separators in the concentrate That now you would say would be your first job Like your first I guess official Preparation of mine backfill by these slimy tabings prior to that we have you the sand and gravel That was Transported underground by gravity We saw it so Sorry Keep certain challenges So I had this this plant I've reduced batches Taking fill and The right moment I introduced water into the pipeline on the ground And then the tailing filled We had telephone communication with the stove that was a very interesting project and Was the foundation for made possible both both mining which was to follow and Would you say that's that's one of your most challenging projects or were there more to come? I've had lots of challenging projects. Yeah And at this point, who would you say or did you have anybody specific? That you consider your mentor Well that came later There was a new concentrator I Know superintendent get the operation going That was also a very interesting experience But after a couple of years things Settling down to a routine Get boys yeah, I applied for research Spent in it to be five years at Falkenbridge and and the the team Senior metallurgist at that time was Phil Thornhill And then for them, I have great respect very very very good scientist and Some knowledge of technology very critical critical faculty Did he teach you anything? Yeah, well what would or maybe not something specific scientifically but what what did What did you gain from him if you had to remember or pick one specific thing What what was the big thing you admired or learned from him? Well, the thing he was working on one of the things he was working on that was development of a Refining process that would be economic encounter That's the the existing process That was operated in the Norwegian refinery the Falkenbridge refinery in Norway Was developed in 1910 was Labor intensive involved with a lot of recentulation a lot of filtration so we needed they did It will be uneconomic to build and operate the planet of that nature in Canada One of the missions that Seek and develop a refining process And he really worked on that One of his major projects We'd love to have various parents options Stealth on hundred-five And out of Out of your entire career you worked for Falconbridge pretty much your entire professional career. Yes, so So I'm guessing within Falconbridge was there a specific period in time or project That was quite dysfunctional Any big dysfunctional moments in your career Depends how you you qualify dysfunctional I could be I was involved in projects which Yeah, not necessarily not necessarily a project that that failed You know you tried and failed that's that happens, but maybe more project or A group you work with that that was dysfunctional so unorganized or Yeah Nicola and refinery was In a sense dysfunctional it was it was a great concept and it was to take periodite and gross depth and use it to the Metallic ion with about three percent nickel in it and the target was the pipeline market pipelines will being built all over Canada at that time for Transportation of oil and gas. Oh what time what period in town was this be about in the 1960s, okay? We wanted to take advantage of this, but there was a somewhat limited market, so we didn't want something to create a The concept and therefore the thing was the project was born under a veil of secrecy When things are kept secret there isn't any Sarah discussion does not scope for questions Well, well most of the elements of the process were Successful it did have a weak link Processes only as those good as the weak link It could have been It might have been avoided if there had been Time and the money and the will to make and construct an integrated pilot plan Which could well have brought out these these efficiencies and Found a way around them In the interest of time that was a Short short cut so between the secrecy and the short cutting the rush It founded It failed failed to see the weak link and And overall did did not work Overall And in in retrospect it would have been an economic anyway because of the oil crisis The price of it was quite energy-intensive it used oil and Co primer as the primary fuel for reduction and Use natural gas for reduction of sulphide oxide to element of sulphur The price of both of those increased 73 and again and I guess later in the decade Okay, no, that's a good example good answer the dysfunctional Project What would be your fondest memory related to to work or professionally I? think perhaps the the Celebration of the signing of the BC will contract of the which one's right the BCO BCO Botswana There was a nickel operation in Botswana and It was shipping its map to North America and It wasn't very economic Cost of refining with Than that was too high or they thought so so we got into discussion with them and After after a year a fairly intensive negotiation would finally Got the contract to treat their product production and and The signing of that final contract was carried out in Paris and I was with Falkenbridge international by that time in the marketing function and Sandy Allen was present at the refining signing and and The after jumped on Concord and flew to New York and then to Bermuda where which was our base Wow Not bad. Yeah came to the office and announced this Signing and they had a celebration in Bermuda in Bermuda not a bad party. Yeah You you you guys had an office in Bermuda. Yeah, did you work there a lot? I? Worked there for four years I was involved for ten years with Falkenbridge international in building up Custom feed Business Backing off a little during during during this sound is the nickel industry was not very happy place the price of nickel dropped to about a dollar fifty and Several of our minds were on economic Put on standby and There was a very little Inadequate feed for those smaller in the refinery. Well, they had excess capacity and From the job was to find materials to use that capacity Pretty successful PCL is I guess one of the big G-con just a lot of it Contracts yeah, and your job then you said it was marketing. Yeah Recorded raw materials marketing it was the acquisition contracting To treat Okay, so you help and refine so you would go and try to get contracts from around the world Yeah, we visited at every nickel company and talk to all other secondary scrap scrap dealers Go to move scrap business with Must been an interesting job. Oh, it's a fascinating job. Yes. Did you you must have traveled a lot? Yeah, travel to every continent. Yeah, what was your what was your favorite location? or Western Australia I hear even to Being there on business, okay but They all have been merits And Throughout your your lifetime. Yeah, you work for the same company for most of your your life But did you join any professional organizations or committees or things like that? Yeah, I've been involved with CIN. I guess from the beginning and Also joined the TMS the U.S. Metallurgical Society But then once I got involved in the Recycling business I joined the international precious metal industry association Association of metal recyclers and so on Yeah, you did you've done quite a bit of work for Like the the environment and sustainability if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, that's Well, I was always an element in the R&D Look and also in the exploration to make sure we didn't get Materials in a custom feed, okay I Really got involved in Full-time in the environment in 1988 and I've returned from La Vuda to Toronto To head up the environmental department of the corporate office and Establish a clear environmental Policy policies procedures For a logic to was this for Falcon Bridge Canada or international still this was international And what what what changes or policies did you bring? In terms of environmental or sustainable Well, we suppose supported the concept of sustainable development One of the main tools was was the environment law that we did environment law editing maybe all our operations and that Increase the awareness height and the awareness and Like I said, so all Falcon Bridge sites had to respect the specific Set of standards for the environment and you would audit them. Yes, okay And did you did you? Through your work there. Did you enforce? Or put in place any Any new environmental laws or or rules Well Our standards, yeah, the laws were Being Enhanced More or less continuously and I was involved with the Mining Association of Canada the environmental committee Interfacing with the government On We love the stakeholders on the detailing of these These regulations the regulations to back up the laws That was interesting I bet and as You had talked about One of your I guess role models and started working with who was head of research and development Oh Yeah But then you're talking inspector of time. Yes, these things change quite a bit over 20 30 years But if we go back to well, Phil Phil Thornhill Thornhill he You say you I think he was head of the yeah He was responsible for the lab in Falcon Bridge. Okay at the time and then you took over He he for various reasons he moved to Toronto and So he and VP of metallurgy was watching Archibald Frederick Archibald And you at that time did you take his place in our ND? Yeah in Falcon Bridge. Yeah, okay and and did you While your lifetime there, did you? What were the big projects you worked on or the big things you I? Guess well, I just mentioned the refining We also Folding in upgrading the smaller We love to many many approaches to that over a number of years Mainly focusing on on a dormeration of concentrate different ways to form Concentrate into months, which would be suitable for the blast furnaces, which were the main smelting unit at that time But none and none and none of the techniques the employee were fully satisfactory that one of the devil does I think is that the Concentrate through a reagent coated and didn't stick together very well. Okay, that's why they're using different binders many different And eventually It was decided to Move to electric furnace smelting So then we piloted electric furnace smelting. We piloted the Powerful roasting concentrate to feed the electric planets and is we piloted the slurry handling of production of a thick slurry and Transportation of thick stories. Okay, forgive my ignorance, but electric furnaces it like electric arc furnaces electric Okay, so much dog. Okay. I was just I actually just interviewed mr. Jerry Heffernan this morning It's very big into the electric arc furnaces. Yeah, okay Interesting well after first first electric arc furnaces were in the refinery Then the Dominican Republic installed electric furnaces the process was based on electric reduction and Partially reduced land right So that was a fair amount of technology, but so fine so fine Smelting is different To make a lot planet unit We're a period of time to get experience And out of that really It was exploiting that that Was was the basis of much of the work that I did when I was with Falkner International because We learned to Operate with under reducing conditions, which now is to greatly increase the recovery of cobalt One of the one of the features here was was the use of Copper fingers to cool the furnace walls Retain the integrity of the furnace Followed up by Larry Sealy and others in the in the smelter operation It became a very very very very effective addition to And throughout your work at Falconbridge what What were your go-to social activities outside of Working hours, I guess or even during working hours. Yeah When I was in Honopeng I was in the coming In the winter time excellent And took advantage of the lakes in the summer time when they moved back to Falconbridge teamed up with people and Got into sailing on the North Channel and spent several years Enjoyable weekends roaming the islands Wow It was that Yeah, I'm thinking yeah, that's a lots of good hunting in the Sudbury region. What what was the Social activity trends for for most people and at Falconbridge. Was it also curling and hunting or? Yeah Wasn't just you know Many many people. Okay and were there any At Falconbridge or at least in in the departments you saw or worked with were there any Recurring social issues or social problems like alcohol use or drug use or Abuse anything like that. Well, there's a lot of body There were quite a few premature deaths Related to a bit excessive I hear I in general what I hear is that The guys like to drink generally Yeah Did you get into hockey when you when you moved to Canada? Did you get into hockey a lot once you moved to Canada? Well, that's right Because it's not very Okay The coach lived up the street A lot of fun took a lot of time Yeah, I yeah hockey I was always I was never in hockey. I was always a big downhill skier But yeah, I hear hockey takes up a lot of time. Yeah, especially for the parents Yeah, yeah proud of that. I was into skiing too, but not in Not very intensively. No and um Again at Falcon Bridge Throughout your career how present or absent were were women in the workplace? And if they were what what were typically their roles? There weren't many women when I started In secretarial roles in the office But I started by the wall engineering graduates When I Toward the end of my career that is superintendent of the Concentrator In Strathclyne Did a very very good job There were also women in the exploration field too Okay, the train train was well established by the time I left. So it kind of it followed them whatever was produced from University It followed at Falcon Bridge essentially. Yeah. Yeah, you didn't see too many many Women in the operations The work was generally It's originally anyway game that changed for the time True true, I mean it's still still more men today, but yeah, no, absolutely Okay Yeah, we had we had talked a bit about sustainability and and your work in The environmental standards you actually I see you won the same crude award for excellence in sustainable development Can you can you explain a little bit or elaborate a bit on the they'll work you did to to receive that? Oh Yeah the What was Sustainability was an integral part of that I guess If we look at the Concentrator and The challenge was to Ensure that we didn't discharge water that was unacceptable That we I so isolated the tailings as far as possible and in that field, I think I can take credit for promoting techniques Which We took a vanity to the product separation But the relatively small volume of iron sulfide material under water And We took a vanity to the the fact that the Local the tailings was being stored underground to the point back fell usually which just left left a very fine slime product low in sulfur and The Concentrator installs thickness Which enabled them to recycle the water right to right on site And gave a second product which made an excellent cover and impermeable cover over the pre-existing sulfide their tailings Encourage that very much Responsible for the environment Is as director of environmental affairs So that was one area another area was in this building and the production of sulfuric acid The development of the roasting partial roasting operation facility the production of acid Gave us a strong steady self-adopted flow which the Passive plant needs On refining that really dates back to the fellow phone. It was work and Just assisted in the investigation for their We pioneered the use of solvents for extraction of iron and cobalt from from Hydrochloric acid solutions and Cobalt approach that try us a lot the whammy approach was adopted by the refinery with was successful in simplifying and improving the recovery of cobalt and refinery, I guess the Recycling aspect was also Contribution to sustainability We Managed to recycle a lot of materials Are you saying metals and met metals? Yes Many of which have been piling up because there wasn't enough for them and Super-highlight grinding So what would you do with the leftover melts with the scrap metals? Well, the scrap metals were fed into the refinery Into the refinery or into the smell them to be used up again and The nickel and the cobalt and any precious metals in Recovered one of our contracts was with Rolls Royce and booming them They they were pushing aircraft The limits of aircraft engines and one of their techniques was to form little channels in the blades on the jet engines through through which they could Cooling Each of these blades had to be made cast individually and they they had to suspend little cores in the mold to keep these from these channels now and and the To suspend the the core In the mold they found that the best material is platinum so they have these little platinum pins and and When the Mold was cast the platinum got soaked into the blade and didn't do any harm to the properties of the blade but they had a lot of defects and They wanted to get some credit for the platinum in the defects because the We were able to Compete contract Reprocessing these and you got them. Yeah Right now we are Slightly slightly related in our collection. We actually have a Chicken cannon Which was used to test? Windshields mostly for aircrafts. I don't know if it was used in Engines as well, but it was used to test windshields. I always thought that was one of our our coolest artifacts Yeah, so a chicken cannon they used to throw a I think frozen birds usually To the windshield. No, no, no, I'll see they were frozen. Yeah Yeah, there you go and Could you talk a bit about the end of your career Falcon bridge because then you moved on to consulting, right? Yeah After I graduated mandatory retirement at 65, okay, but they mandatory mandatory mandatory, yeah, yeah but they Was a year before my replacement What was it could be put in place so Started on on consulting basis still for Falcon bridge to fill that here and then following that Colt involved in in other projects. There was an energy project. I was involved with Doing doing a survey of all the operations to characterize their energy consumption Okay That was one project another project which which took quite a lot of time was Seeking ways to utilize by-product Mine by-products mainly tailings and slag And I must say it didn't get too far with the tailings so with the slag we Were quite successful in finding people who were very interested in the slag The price they were prepared to pay was Not high enough in the minds of the legal department to justify the risk of frivolant lawsuits So Steinman from pursuing that. What were the what would be the anticipated lawsuits? They The way the legal department put it the Falcon bridge had a deep pocket and There are always people looking To benefit through illegal lawsuits pockets Under the laws in the States, which was one of our main markets the laws are such that Anybody can So you And it doesn't have to be for any good reason it can be a frivolous and But but by the time you've defended yourself and You've spent spent a lot of money The costs are charged to you. There's no recompense That was the position and we had to accept that it was Valid yeah, yeah We had to reluctantly tell these potential consumers of the smuggler's flag Do you still do some consulting today I haven't had them for The last two years, okay, so fully retired now We're not quite necessary It's just it's funny because every every interview I have whether whether the person's 84 or 91 or 95 they're they never seem to Be completely retired They're always working a little bit at least. Yeah Keeps your mind active Yeah, it is your life after all. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, most of these guys They're their work is their life. Yeah, and you can tell. Yeah, you can tell What would you say is the most proudest moment in your life? Maybe a tough question Yeah, you're all divided into proudest moment and then proudest moment professionally I have a great difficulty answering that question One one because I'm not particularly proud Kind of keep a low profile and I've noticed I've noticed maybe okay, let's change the wording to Satisfied what are you the most satisfied about? Concerning you professionally well, I probably got most satisfaction from from this building this recycling business that it contributed very substantially in The early 80s late 70s early 80s to the survival of the company At least to the bottom line exaggerate You have to be too bad don't be too bashful I think it took the balance Okay, and This is my favorite question I like to ask If you were speaking to me or someone younger a student or anybody like that even children maybe what would be the one Life lesson or piece of advice you would give them Concerning their career or the their future Well pick something you enjoy and work hard at it Take something you like. Yeah Give it your best Excellent excellent piece of advice Is there anything else you'd like to to add or? Or share or tell me if we've missed something Why I think you've done a pretty comprehensive job I wouldn't presume to Oh, no, it's it's really a I mean you've done so much so Is there anything we didn't we didn't elaborate on or you'd like to The only thing with respect to history is Point I made earlier that a lot of the written history is is becoming very hard to find and Okay, the example of the Falkenbridge And reports Try to try to get a copy of the Once from nineteen twenty eight to nineteen fifty-five Jack Jack with Sudbury archives with the company and Nobody nobody feared to have any copies The only place I found that was was at McGill and they have I had a project there to put These rare rare rare reports. They had accumulated reports in most Canadian mining companies over the years and they had a project to put the Established electronic files And I think they got up to a b and c Now is there another money before they got to F Falkenbridge. Yeah So that that that was sad to know and I hope it will be picked up before the People gets to hold that's again, it's just integrates. Yeah, absolutely. Let's hope so Well, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Appreciate your time. My pleasure