 Assalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Welcome to the live Facebook, the show that discusses theological arguments from the book Haqqa Yaqeen by Sayyid Shabbar. Last episode we were discussing one of the attributes of Allah SWT to do with his power or powerful omnipotent, Qadir Qudra. And we're looking at how the creation also reflects and depicts the power and the omnipotence of Allah SWT. Insha'Allah we're going to continue our discussion with a new topic where we look at the creator of the universe. Now we have two arguments in the world today in regards to the creator of the universe. We have that the creator and the sustainer and the one that maintains the universe is Allah SWT or a God. And the other is Mother Nature. Mother Nature was the one that created the universe. Mother Nature is the one that sustains and maintains the universe. Insha'Allah we'll discuss more with my co-host, Sheikh Mohammed Abbas Banjo. Assalamu alaikum sheikhna wa alaikum salam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. How are you this evening? Alhamdulillah wa shukr. Always a pleasure to be with you. So sheikhna, we have these two ideas or these two arguments. One is saying that God is the creator of the universe and the one that maintains and sustains the universe. The other is Mother Nature. What is Mother Nature and is Mother Nature? Being is an actual mother or it is Mother Nature. Are they trying to say that the world kind of takes care of itself, self-sufficient? KT Leverik. Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim. When it comes to understanding the force that is responsible for the creation of everything within existence and then the maintenance if you could say of everything within existence you'll find that it is very helpful and it is actually imperative for a person to understand the sifat of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and hence you will find that within the manhaj of the mutakallimin, within the manhaj of the ulama who have put forward this manhaj of ilmul kalam seeking or walking in the line of the ahlu al-bayt. You will see that even the chapters and the topics, subtopics within the classical texts of usuluddin are very logically placed such that questions like the one you have just posed to me are answered systematically. From the many theories that exist out there or the many beliefs that exist out there in regards to the force that is responsible for the creation or that maintains this creation when it comes to answering the argument or tackling this argument between a God which all Abrahamic fates believe in or mother nature it is important that this answer to this question we will try and address it by looking at two of the sifat of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, the sifat of Allah Azza wa Jal being muhtar and we will come to the meaning of the word muhtar and the second one is murid, murid meaning or derived or one of the derivatives of the word being irada, one of the verbal constructions irada yuriduh inna ma, for example inna ma yuridullahu li yudhiba ankumur ridjah ahlu al-bayt wa yutahirakum tatheera Allah ma sulleh ala Muhammad wa ala Muhammad. By having an understanding of these two sifat of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala even at a very basic or at a very shallow level it will be able to help us understand and to answer the question whether it is Allah or it is mother nature. So we will attempt to answer this question over the period of this show but by referring back to the text and understanding the sifat of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and then seeing whether these sifat are applicable on this force called mother nature and then perhaps if we have time try to understand even though I'm not an expert in mother nature or the definition of mother nature or the belief of mother nature but hassab the information that is available we will try and see whether these characteristics are applicable negate it or what it is maybe we find out there is another creator called mother nature you will see from the answers that come forth and where our discussion takes us if we begin with the sifat of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala in that Allah az-zawajal is muhtar. Muhtar means Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has iqtiyaar iqtiyaar means very loosely translated he has free will in his actions free will in the sense that he has choice to do or not to do he has absolute control over his actions and you find over here that he comes forward in introducing this concept of iqtiyaar iqtiyaar means Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is muhtar by saying over here from the sifat of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is that he is muhtar he has free will as we said he has a choice to either perform an action or not perform an action which consequentially means God is not forced obliged or subjected to an action or to performing an action and the example that is drawn out over here by the Sayyid is the example of fire and the property that fire has to burn so fire for example take fire for the sake of understanding this argument take fire to be a force this force has certain properties one of these properties is the property of heat you cannot have fire without heat and the second property of this force i.e fire is that it burns anything that comes into contact anything that comes into contact with this force fire will burn you put a piece of paper on the flame paper will burn you put your hand around the flame you will feel the heat or you'll feel the warmth so the fire as a force has certain attributes has certain properties and through these attributes and these properties actions then actualize themselves from the property of heat it gives us warmth and the property of that same heat and action is emanated in that the fire burns the paper having said this the force i.e fire as a force when it is exercising its attribute of burning anything that comes into contact with it does this fire as a force have choice in exercising that attribute or not the fire doesn't have any choice the character in the attribute it is inseparable in the sense that fire does not have choice that it will decide to burn one thing and decide not to burn something else or to keep something warm and not to keep something else warm so over here like the way we understand that fire being a force that also has attributes that emanate into action but it does not have a choice because it doesn't have a choice i.e that sefat or this attribute of muhtar cannot be in it this attribute cannot be separated does not have the ability to separate itself from the consequential results of this attribute and the same thing when it comes to the sun for example the sun being a force a force that provides heat for example the sun as a force does it have the ability to take away from itself the property of heat law because it does not have this ability i.e it is it cannot be a force that is self governing in itself it has to have a force higher than that that has actually created it with an inseparable property so when we look into the sefat of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that Allah Azza wa Jal is muhtar he has absolute control over his actions to do or not to do and you find that within the Quran Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has mentioned or this sefat of Allah Azza wa Jal can be understood from a number of verses within the Quran and we always I think week in week out we say it is very important that we understand or we are able to prove our usuluddin and our akida from within the Quran not for the purpose of converting others or engaging in discussions and this is important perhaps secondary but most importantly for us she are itna ashari Muslims I need to have ikna I need to have absolute yakeen conviction in the concepts that I claim to believe in the word akida from the word okda I mean like a knot machine when you tie a knot it is so the knot is so firmly tied that if a person was to try and undo it he can't linguistically this is a meaning or this is the word through which the word akida is derived from akida I mean a belief that is so firm in your heart belief that you believe in so firmly nobody can convince you otherwise and you cannot abandon your faith for anything whatsoever and this is binal kaushain this is one of the problems that we see in today's day and age particularly when it comes to the concept of imama and with all due respect to all our viewers respected brothers and sisters in regards to a number of husainiyat imam bargas sometimes we tend to lean towards secular beliefs non-shi'i beliefs because that firm conviction is not there there are other forces other factors other beliefs other agendas that we feel are much more important than imama such that we are willing to let go of imama we're willing to let go of wilaya we're willing to discount the importance of wilaya in order to pursue other things why because that akida is not there that deep firm conviction is lacking and hence the starting point is always knowledge so it is important for us and even madrasa teaches whichever level of the community in which we are scholars ourselves we have to be firm in this belief for where did this concept or how are we able to prove the sefat of allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that he is muhtar there are a number of verses in the quran the one that i have picked out and one that alama shabbar rahmatullah alayh rahmatullah alayh the one that he points to in the book over here is you know i thought why did he pick this verse he's picked the worst verse from surah ala imran verse number 40 verse number 40 and this is the verse of the quran where allah subhanahu wa ta'ala in the quran outlines for us the event between or the event surrounding nabi zakariya and him being blessed with a child verse number 40 and i have reached such an old age and my wife is barren i mean defies all science defies the rules of biology ya rabbi a man is elderly in age perhaps doesn't have his wife is barren the biological reasons that are needed or the biological criterias that are needed to conceive the natural factors nature natural the natural factors that are needed to be in place in order for a child to be conceived are missing and despite that allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says this is how allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is allah does what he wills okay now i thought over here why did alama shabbar use this verse in the quran because this verse the last part of the verse qadalik allah yaf al umayah shah allah does whatever he wants it points towards two sefat of allah and it actually combines these two together the sefat of kudrah and the sefat of iqtiah so you find over here that when allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says qadalik allah yaf al umayah shah allah does whatever he wants the first indication from this part of the verse or the first sefat we are able to understand allah does whatever he wants yani allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is muhtar allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has free will allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has choice he could bless a couple with a child even if those biological scientific regions of factors that are needed to conceive are missing allah can do that and if he wills even for those people where everything biologically ticks the box according to nature ticks the box but allah subhanahu wa ta'ala can decide not to bless them with a child so this is the first netija or the first consequence or sorry consequence the first the result that is derived from this aspect the second conclusion which reinforces what we discussed last week that allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is wahu ala kulli shayin qadir allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has power over everything within the creation he has the power to alter the law of science if he wants and he has the power to enforce new laws of science if he wants so from here we understand that the first sefat of allah subhanahu wa ta'ala in that he is muhtar and he has absolute control and choice over his actions tell you now if we understand this aspect of the sefat of allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and we go back to our original question the original question being that is mother nature responsible for creation is mother nature responsible for the upkeep of this creation or is it allah subhanahu wa ta'ala so then we say that in answering this our first step is that we ask the question what is this force that we are referring to as mother nature who is mother nature what is mother nature how did mother nature come into existence or was it before even the realm of existence came into existence having said this the force of mother nature if on the premise we accept that mother nature is a force that has a role in the creation of this universe or in the maintenance of this creation or in the design of this creation then the next question that we ask is is mother nature muhtar in its afal or no does this force called mother nature does it have this power of choice and will or is this mother nature and the power associated to this perceived force this is on the premise that this force mother nature exists huh so it is a conditional argument this force mother nature does it have choice or does it not have choice wouldn't you say then it should have a conscience if it has a choice or some sort of you know um consciousness being if it has a choice does it have a consciousness you know it could be one of the questions that we ask you know is this a force that has wisdom behind it is it hakeem hakeem again from the sifat of allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does mother nature as a force have this sifat of hikmah and where can this sifat be uh deduced from when it comes to this concept of muhtar does mother nature as a force have this muhtlak will or not if we say that the forces of mother nature the force of mother nature and the power that it exercises in regards to the creation or the design of this universe its power is subjective just like the way we said in the beginning between the sun or the property the force of fire and its ability to burn and give heat if this force does not have choice then it cannot be a deity that is all powerful to begin with and it is through this sifat that we are able to invalidate by posing this question because there are many aspects or many aspects of creation that if they are attributed towards mother nature then this sifat of muhtar there is a question mark on it because if the force does not have free will it does not qualify to be all powerful if it does not qualify to be all powerful then it does not qualify to be worshiped because it no longer is that superpower deity in later layman tombs mashallah so let me let me get this right to just like you can conclude if there is such a thing that has you know ability to let's say look after the universe and take care of the world but it is doing it on without its own accord as in it has no choice it doesn't have a wisdom or knowledge behind to make a decisive decision to actually do this to maintain the universe right so even if it is you can maintain the universe because it is not making a conscious effort it is not worthy of being worshipped it is it does not qualify as the creator or being responsible for the creator in the same way as the sun people used to worship the sun because the sun was perceived as the force that gives light through which gives heat which is an important factor for life to survive for plants to grow yes however because the sun does not have this decisive power of separating itself from its attributes and its consequential actions we come to the conclusion that baba yes it is a force but not a force that is a creator a force that is a creation that demonstrates the power of the creator which is why you see that in one of the mannerisms in which nabiyullah ibrahim aleyhi salam when he debated with the people of his time and they said to him we worship the sun and they would worship the sun and in the evening when the sun sets he would say okay where is your god now where is your lord now so understanding the argument in this way see it also boils down to understanding i don't know how much time do we have before we go and break no i don't like we have minute half minute yes when it comes to understanding these arguments islam is not against science we've said this a number of times forces that we find in nature forces within this universal system of cause and effect as a muslim we believe in them in the sense that we do not negate the existence of these forces rather understanding the system of creation and understanding the system of cause and effect leads us to the conclusion that there is a deity who has put these who has put this system of cause and effect into existence we don't say that the from within the system of cause and effect that because we found the cause there is no other cause behind the cause we don't stop at the cause and say that this is the creator or there is no other creator because we are Mahdood within this system of cause and effect law we have to and this is where the intellect comes into play and this is where dean comes into play this is where the messages of the anbiya come into play when it comes to tawhid it is about discovering and understanding the cause behind the cause people during the time of nabiyullah ibrahim aleyhi salam they worship the sun the sun being the cause of life at a tahrir level nabiyullah ibrahim aleyhi salam came and said la this is a form of ignorance why because when you don't stop at that cause look at that cause behind the cause look at who is there to have brought this sun into existence who has put it into this nidam when obviously we say when the sun rises and the sun sets not in our system excuse me of the rotation of the earth and so on so forth ahsatu man more inshallah we'll go into detail uh after the break if you literally do it i said thank you very much inshallah to all the viewers please join us after break inshallah we'll continue the discussion here on the live facebook salam aleykum rahmatullahi wabarakatuh salam aleykum rahmatullahi wabarakatuh welcome back to the live facebook sheikhna before the break who were discussing uh you were saying that mother nature has two so far um and we're discussing muqtara allah subhanahu wa ta'ala being muqtara meaning that he has you know the the freedom of will he decides what he wants to do when he wants to and you uh show us a chronic aya uh surah imran aley imran verse 40 i believe it was yes um what's the second sifat you want to discuss the second sifat of allah subhanahu wa ta'ala being the sifat that allah azza wa jal is murid murid i mean that allah subhanahu wa ta'ala from one of his sifat is irada irada generally speaking ya ani he has will or intent or say when it comes to a theological perspective the appropriate word would be decree he has the power to decree and he has the power to ordain oh it is important to understand this sifat in that man also has the power of intent which means that man also has the power of irada and man is also murid does this mean that man is mushtarak man shares this character of irada with the lord of the universe if we say that man shares this attribute of allah at one level the creation and the creator man and allah share a common denominator and the and share a certain extent of power that is equa or man shares a form of intent that belongs to allah as per the teachings of ahlul bayt this sort of understanding is an understanding of shirk even though we find that this baseline understanding and this very very shallow summary is a concept which is propagated by a number of scholars within the muslim world shia unfortunately and non shia and this comes to it boils down to having tried to understand allah subhanahu wa ta'ala through a medium other than ahlul bayt and we will see how we tie this to this issue of mother nature you find over here that the issue of irada even within the classical mutakallimin they're divided i wouldn't say divided but they have differing opinions in regards to the exact meaning and the precise implication of this sefat irada and you find that even the way alama shabbar rahmatullah aley advances towards this topic is very different for example to the way that ayatullah for example ali husaini assadah rahmatullah aley a great alim from the ulama in terms of al mul kalam and perhaps if we have a chance we could speak about him at some point but the way he tackles this issue of irada in his text aqaid al haqqa which in essence is a brilliant is a brilliant book in al mul kalam to delve into and from the many texts that are out there available at the hausa level aqaid al haqqa by far you know as has been mentioned by the ulama and the maraja in naja of and in quam when it comes to understanding usuluddin from the manhaj of ahlul bayt the book aqaid al haqqa is by far one of the most comprehensive and one of the most important books that a person can come across when it comes to this journey irada so if we were to switch from the book haqqul yaqeen to aqaid al haqqa for this particular sefaat you will see over here that answering this question it says irada we said is intent but over here here he goes on to clarify the very beginning lakin iradatullah taftarik an iradatil makhlukeen the power of intent which is possessed by the creator is different from the power of intent possessed by the creation how far iradatullah yani the intent of Allah azawajal in itself is the action of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala The intent of God is the actions of God. See, for the human being, it is different. And, you know, this is why we say that some of these theories that come out, of wahdatil wujud, for example, or the theory of multiplicity, the unity of existence through multiplicity, in essence, is nothing but shirk at its purest level, through this theory of unity through multiplicity, apart from it being a logical fallacy. It doesn't hold, if you were to scale this argument as per the rules of logic, you'll find that you can't even lay the premises of the argument in a manner that is correct. So, apart from it being a logical fallacy, you see that it is actually the purest form of shirk. If there was any purity, the purity in terms of its resemblance to shirk, in that the Anbiya, for example, they came and they condemned those who took idols as partners of Allah SWT or attributed the sifat of Allah to the idols, and there were 300 and 400. Prophets came to condemn them, Nabi came and condemned them, and then, Subhanallah, you have people who come with theories where they say, there are 6 billion of Allah in any case. This, inshallah, is a discussion for its own. But the important thing over here to remember is this. And this is extremely important regardless of which stage of a journey you are when it comes to usuluddin, regardless of whether it is in the madrasa, regardless of whether it is Hausa ilmiya, what we have even been told by the ulama inside of the Hausa, and I remember this, always used to be mentioned to us in Sayyid al-Zaynab and in Najaf al-Ashraf, regardless of which stage the scholar is at, there is one thing that a person always has to keep in mind. And it's something very simple, but it's something very, very detrimental the deeper we go into our studies. And this is the verse of the Qur'an. Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim. Laysa kamithlihi shay. Laysa kamithlihi shay. Didn't say Laysa mithlihi. Kamithlihi, kaaf, yani kaaf of tashbih. They say in Arabic grammar, there is nothing like him. Baba, the Khaliq is absolutely separate from the mahluk. There can be no mushraq safat between the Khaliq and the mahluk, two separate entities all together. So when he comes over here, the author, Rahmatullah alayhi says, the irada of Allah, yani the intent of Allah, this attribute of intent, this attribute of having a decree, this intent or this attribute of giving a decree, of wanting to give a decree, for example, is different from that of a man. For you and I, when we say intent, meaning that where there is a process that the human being goes through, that there is an intent and then based on that intent, the action emanates from the man. With Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, this is for the mahluk. However, the Khaliq, the concept of irada is totally different where the intent is the action and the action is the intent. What is the proof for this? Sayyid al-Sadr goes through this and he quotes this hadith in Majma al-Bahrain, hadith on authority of Imam Rida, salawatullah wa salamu alayhi. Inna al-ibdaa, inna al-ibdaa wa al-mashi'a, wa al-iradaa, ma'anaa wa hadun, wa al-asmaa wa salatun. The concept of ibdaa, ya'ani, to bring into existence from non-existence and this concept of will and intent, ya'ani, decree, all of them, the meaning is one, but the names that are given to it are three. Fal mustafad min haadihi al-adilla, anna iradatullah ma'anaa haa, ihdaathuhu lil-ashyaa wa ibda'uhu wa fi'luhu lahaa, ya'ani, the intent of Allah is the action of Allah. The action of Allah is the intent of Allah. There is no time gap between the intent and the action in that Allah has to intend something and think about it and ponder and then the thought translates into an action, laa. Fa idhaa aradaa shay'an ayyakoo laa lahoo koon, fa yakoon. The intent is inseparable from the action and you find over here that this is a concept that is important and then there is a concept of iradaa which could be tied to the concept of the commands of Allah and the prohibitions of Allah, the wajibat, for example, and the muharramat and this is the line that Sayyid Shabbar goes down through. However, we will omit that for now because we want to also address this issue of mother nature and how this sifat will come to that. But having said that, let me just run by you one hadith. Insha'Allah. Over here in regards to the decree of Allah, because we said by iradaa intent, the other precise term would be decree, the decree of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. This is for the muwahid. Hadith is Sharif on authority of Amir al-Mu'mineen, salawatullahi wa salamuhu alayhi. Maula al-Muwahideen, master of all monotheists. And you know this title is very interesting for Amir al-Mu'mineen. Maula al-Muwahideen, the master of monotheists. If you are a monotheist, you have to have this belief in the will of Amir al-Mu'mineen. Monotheism becomes complete through Amir al-Mu'mineen, alaihi salam. It says in this hadith, actually Amir al-Mu'mineen is narrating a hadith a conversation that happens between Allah Az-Zawajal and Nabiullah Dawud. Let me give you a fada'il by way of ishara. I will stop at this, I will not spend too much time, I will go. Within this there is an indication of people who have Ma'arefa. This is a conversation between Allah Az-Zawajal and Nabiullah Dawud. Amir al-Mu'mineen is the one narrating this conversation between Allah and Nabiullah Dawud. Amir al-Mu'mineen doesn't mention, or the question is this, how did Amir al-Mu'mineen know? Of this conversation between Allah and Nabiullah Dawud. He doesn't say that I heard from the Prophet, that the Prophet told me that Allah spoke with Nabiullah Dawud. Amir al-Mu'mineen is narrating directly that there was a conversation that happened with Allah and Dawud. Where did Amir al-Mu'mineen know from? Within this answer there is a fada'il, a big fada'il of Amir al-Mu'mineen. We will not answer it when that happens. Peace be upon you, Amir al-Mu'mineen. He says, Allah revealed to Dawud, and he said to him, You want and I want. You have intent and I have intent. You have certain decrees and I have certain decrees. Remember how we said in the beginning? That the irada of the makhluk is different from the irada of the khalik. Nothing will ever happen except through my decree, my will, my intent. Ya'ni the decree and the intent of Allah prevails over the decree and the intent of all other human beings. Everything within creation is shadowed by the decree of Allah Azza wa Jalla. And from this irada or this understanding of irada, we understand that Allah is Qadir. Wa huwa la kulli shayin. Qadir. He has power over everything. And from here we now, you start to see as you go deeper into the studies. That the sifat, how we said the Amir al-Mu'mineen, said that the sifat of Allah cannot be separated from the that of Allah Azza wa Jalla. And that all these sifat are interlinked because in reality, the essence is one. When we come back to this issue, if we understand this concept of irada, decree and this concept of iqtiyaar, i.e. Allah Azza wa Jalla being muqtar, will and intent, free will, which exercises over everything and anything. When we come back to mother nature, we say number one, what is this mother nature? Like the way we said in the first part of the segment, you'll find that some of the most famous or some of the most accepted definitions that come forward for mother nature, is a personification of nature. That focuses on the life giving and nurturing aspects of nature by embodying it in the form of a mother. So within the system of cause and effect, we took this cause, the cause which is apparent and gave it the name of the mother because the mother generally metaphorically or within this outward system is seen as the source of life or the channel through which life is given to another. So it's attributed to a governing force. However, our question is that who is the force behind the force? Man should not be so intellectually shallow to stop at that cause and then look what it goes on to share. Images of women representing mother earth and mother nature are timeless in prehistoric times. Goddesses were worshipped for their association with fertility and agricultural boundary, bounty. And this was the commonly held belief within Assyrian, Babylonian, Roman, Greek and Indian religions prior to the inception of Abrahamic religions. And then it goes on to say the earliest written usage of this concept of mother nature dates back to 13th or 12th century B.C. Wow. This means that, number of conclusions, how much time do we have? Around 10 minutes. Yeah, Allah. We have 10 minutes. So I know how deep to formulate the arguments. Four minutes. Tell you. So the first thing over here is this. The arguments that we have right now that are put forward to us in regards to mother nature being the force. These are not new arguments. This is not a breaking discovery. And neither it is an intellectual argument that has just surfaced as a result of a better understanding of science law. This concept of mother nature existed way before. Way before even the coming of Nabiullah is a 13th or 12th century before Christ. Now this is the important thing. This concept of mother nature being the force responsible for fertility and agricultural bounty and so on and so forth. Properties of the Khaliq who is Qadir, who has Qudra and who has Irada as we saw because these are characteristics that are manifested within the creation. They were attributed to this force of nature which was then represented in a female image. And this was the leading theory in Greek and Indian philosophy and Assyrian philosophy, Babylonian philosophy even before the coming of Nabi Issa. So number one is not a new argument. Number two, we come to see that these beliefs are the very beliefs that the Ambiya came to negate. If this was the ideological belief of deities, mother nature, a personification of nature in the form of a female force that governs certain aspects of our existence and this was the predominant belief before Abrahamic faiths. Nabi Nuh came to know what? To fight people who had this notion. Fight intellectually. Nabiullah Ibrahim he came to invalidate their argument. Nabi Issa came and invalidated these arguments. Then how is it that these arguments that came into existence so now you see you also come to understand and this thing is very important that even the Ambiya of the past the likes of Nabi Ibrahim, the likes of Nabi Issa, Nabi Musa when we have this mental picture in our mind that these were backward people, yes they were backward but what I mean is savage and yes they were savage but at their time they claimed to be the intellectuals of their time. They had philosophical arguments in regards to their idea of the creation and the existence of the earth and some of the highest, most influential the aristocrats of the time the most successful businessman of the time yielded to those beliefs which the Ambiya came to nullify or invalidate and we find that this cycle is repeating itself even in this day and age and therefore you see the type of the arguments these Ambiya have come to invalidate and if we understand this and you look at everything within the realm of the big picture you find that one of the what is branded or marketed as one of the greatest achievements of Ma'amun Al Abbasi was that he you will find this a lot within the books of the Mukhalifin Ma'amun is the brother of Harun yes the Persian Yes with Imam Rida during the Abbasi leader during the time of Imam Rida Ma'amun was the one who was responsible for the translation of a lot of weak Roman Indian philosophy into Arabic text and the Mukhalifin and there are a number of Shi'a who are also of this opinion in that they actually praise Ma'amun and they say that he was the Abbasi Khalifa responsible for the spread of literature and I've heard this from from Shi'a scholars as well scholars where they say yes he didn't give Imam Rida his rights he suppressed Imam Rida didn't believe in the Khilaf and the willy of Imam Rida but he done Islam a big service because he spread this culture of literature but when you look at the Qadiyah when you look at the issue a little bit more deeper what you begin to see is when you scratch below the surface you start to see that Ma'amun actually began a movement by exporting and funding the translation of deviant philosophical schools of thought he laid the foundation to fracture the theological belief which unites and strengthens the Shi'a the Muslims not only between themselves but fractured their relationship and their understanding with their creator to begin with and was he trying to promote mother nature from a lot of these things if you have a look over here you look at some of the arguments whether he promoted mother nature or not we have to look into the type of arguments that these philosophers came with when they came into the Islamic lands but a good shahed on this is what a good proof to drive home our point is where you look at the arguments and the debates that Imam Rida salawatullahi wa salamuhu alayhi has in this book compiled by Sheikh Saduk Nunes Uyun Akhbarur Rida look at the theological arguments Ma'amoon brought these individuals to try and defeat Imam Rida a ploy to fracture the correct theological belief that existed and that emanates from the school of Ahlulbayt as the most accurate one Subhanallah Imam Rida came on top and a lot of these people changed their belief system and Imam Rida invalidated a lot of their beliefs but what we are trying to say is arguments are not new ground-breaking discoveries in regards to how nature came into existence and how the universe came into existence these are arguments that predate back to even before the time of Nabiullah Isa so to end our question over here is this on the assumption that mother nature is a force that is responsible for creation and the force above which there is no other force our question here is does mother nature have the sifat of irada does it have the sifat of kudrah does it have the sifat of iqtiara if it has the sifat where can these be proved from if they don't have this sifat that means there is a force above the force of nature and in our intellectual journey of discovering what or who is responsible for the root of creation then we have to go further to discover above mother nature many times in my opinion one of the scholars Ayatullah said Jaafar Ashirazi Hafidahullah he would always say many times some of the attributes that are granted to mother nature actually are attributes of Allah these people were to know what you are referring to they are giving to mother nature it's actually Allah they need that further push for them to be able to see beyond what is about and they come into the fold thank you very much Sheikhna for the dialogue and for the discussion thank you for all the views for joining us inshallah we will have a new discussion on the next episode of the live Facebook inshallah