 Yep. All right, so, hey everybody. Sorry we're just a little bit late. If you guys haven't seen my face before, I'm Sean Malone. I'm the creative director for the Foundation for Economic Education. I'm the creator of Out of Frame. Obviously narrator, writer, voice, all of that, for that kind of stuff. The person you see in the little box down to your right is Jen Mafesanti. And Jen is a writer for fees. She is our co-writer for Out of Frame Shorts, co-writer for Common Sense Soapbox episodes. She and I worked really hard on most of the Bob of the Future stuff together with Shamus. And Jen will be hanging out down there, monitoring the comments, feeding us questions and all of that kind of stuff. And again, I apologize, we're a little bit late. My internet died literally the second that we were supposed to start. And it just took 10 minutes for it to return. So, yeah, sorry about that. But yeah, so welcome to the show. Jen, how are you doing? I'm doing well. How are you doing? Other than that, not bad. So, yeah, I don't know if there were, were there any questions that you wanted to start off with or is there anything coming in? I'm not really sure. I mean, it's literally asked me anything as far as I'm concerned at all. Do my best to answer whatever anybody wants to know. Yeah, we actually have a few pretty good questions in the chat already, which is super exciting. Thank you, everyone who is participating there. The first one comes from Ethan Rivera. And he asks, when did you start becoming inspired to be a freedom activist? Wow, so I've always been philosophically aligned in that sort of direction. I mean, pretty much every ever since I was, I don't know, 13 or 14, I started thinking philosophically about self-ownership and about the idea of authoritarianism. This is kind of a weird thing for a 13 or 14 year old to think about. But the way that I kind of came to it was thinking about who really had the right to tell somebody else what to do and kind of started with like a little bit of introspection. I haven't had some moments when I was about that age, maybe I was 15 or 16 where I was like, I slapped a cigarette out of a friend of mine's hand because it was smoking as bad and horrible and whatever. And I had to like step back and think about that. Like what right did I have to do that to somebody else? And just thinking about those kinds of things kind of led me in that direction. But I didn't really want to become, I didn't really even have the sense that this was a job honestly until 2009 or 2010 or maybe 2008. But I actually went to work in the music industry. And I was living in Los Angeles and I was having an endless array of conversations about what led to the financial collapse in 2007, 2008. And that started to let me know that a lot of people were really confused about a lot of economic issues, a lot of philosophical issues. And those conversations kind of ultimately led me towards wanting to create media to do this kind of stuff. There just wasn't anything that I could share with somebody or it was all like all the various think tanks and different organizations that do anything kind of like this would write white papers or go on C-SPAN or whatever. None of my friends in LA were watching any of that stuff. And I thought it could be done better. So it was about 2008, 2009. And then I didn't do it, start doing it full-time professionally until the maybe second quarter of 2010. And then I was able to do it full-time. And I've been doing that pretty much ever since. Cool. All right, our next question is from David. And he asks, it's a little involved. He says, I'm curious about the workflow on these projects. How many people are working together to produce each one? How many hours does it take? And where do you get the stock footage from the movies or shows discussed? Yeah, okay. So I'll go through that bit by bit. It varies by episode and show and all that kind of stuff. Just different people work on different things. Honestly, and not just cause a couple of them are participating here, but I've really been lucky to be able to build a really incredible team around this. And it's not a big team. Generally speaking at the very beginning, it was literally just me. Pavel actually is Pavel who is running the actual show. You guys won't see his face, but Pavel actually, when I very first started the series, Pavel was the one who got me all the clips. I gave him a list of clips to find for Star Wars stuff. And the first episode was on Star Wars. And Pavel found all the clips and I did all the editing and I wrote and recorded and I did literally everything myself over the years. We've expanded a little bit. So my friend, Hirosh Irem, actually edits episodes now. So the way the workflow works now is that I will write an episode typically around now. Honestly, I need to be writing the next episode pretty much today or tomorrow. And that process is, it varies. I mean, writing is hard. My, in general, I try to block a whole day to write. And in reality that day turns into three almost every time. So it's just the nature of the beast, I think, is that first day, as long as on the first day I feel like I can get something that's really well structured, then the next day I can come in and rewrite a whole bunch of stuff. And then the last day won't be a full day. It'll be just revisions and edits and stuff like that. And then I have to go record. So then I record all of the O. Hirosh and I have a pretty good system for sharing. Hirosh actually doesn't live anywhere near us. He lives in LA for most of the time and now he actually lives in Utah. And so we transfer, I transfer my recordings and scripts and any directorial notes I've got. And then Hirosh starts working on putting the episode together, which he gets some help from one of our interns, Jason and sometimes Pavel. And procuring the clips is usually a matter of, I mean, it depends. I mean, if we can find stuff on YouTube via trailers, we'll pull it from there or a lot of times we'll end up like screencapping things from movies that we buy on Voodoo or on Amazon those kinds of things. I'm pretty knowledgeable at this point about fair use and about how to use other people's copyrighted material. And so we're pretty careful about that part of it. But honestly, it's pretty wide berth because we are doing commentary on other people's media. So you can kind of get it from the best source you can get it from. But it's not licensed. I mean, it's fair use. And I have won several copyright disputes with YouTube on that point, not with YouTube, with Disney, Warner Brothers, whoever. Except for this last one, which Disney just ran out the clock on, which was lame. But yeah, I don't know. All in, it takes a couple of weeks though. I mean, it takes the first several days of me working on writing and recording. And then the editing process can take, I think it's taken as long as 10 days in some cases. But the shorts, obviously it's a lot easier. Usually that's turned around in about a week, but Jen usually sends me the first draft of those. How long does it take you to do the first drafts usually? Do you feel like? Of the shorts? If I have a very clear idea of what I'm writing about, and I know the material fairly intimately already, I can have a draft of one of the short scripts turned around in a matter of a couple of hours. But if I have to do a lot of extensive research that can stretch out into a full day or two. That's also the thing that I think people probably don't realize. I drew a really tremendous amount of research. The scripts, especially now, when I was writing and doing all of the editing myself, my scripts were fairly thin. Like I would just write the VO and kind of move on. But now, because there are other people involved, I'm very careful to write screen direction clips that I definitely want to include, stuff like that. But also I do a tremendous amount of research and link all of that stuff throughout the script so that as Arash and Jason and Pavel and whoever else is going through trying to pull assets for it, they know where I got the various pieces of information. Plus it's helpful for us because when we want to link to stuff in the comments or in the description, we have all that stuff ready to go. Yeah, hopefully that answered everything. I think I got all of it, right? All right, let's see here. The next question comes from Bitewar, spelled with a Y. And he asks, he or she asks, hey, is Common Sense Soapbox to continue or is it over? It will continue. It's gonna change a little bit. There are a couple of reasons for this. James is getting busier with his Freedom Tunes channel so that's part of it. But the biggest thing was it was just like it's been kind of tough to do. The whole Bob to the Future arc kind of took a lot of effort because they were more complicated to write. They were more complicated to animate. They were longer. We just, it was really tough. And so we're taking a short break just to kind of chill out for that. But we actually had a brainstorm session for the next round a week ago, almost exactly a week ago. And I actually asked James, by the way, Jen, you don't know this yet, I talked to James last night to see if he would start working up the first draft of a script next week. So next week we're gonna start, hopefully writing the next script. The biggest change, and we haven't really announced this yet, is that I actually wanna move Common Sense Soapbox to another channel. I wanna move it to a channel that's really explicitly for Common Sense Soapbox. As we've grown, it's been harder and harder to maintain two really radically different audiences in one place. And so we want to actually start splitting that stuff off. But you'll see announcements about that once we're ready to kind of relaunch. But yeah, it's not over, still doing. All right, the next question comes from Mitchell Han. And Mitchell asks, why do you think so many people struggle with free market solutions? Boy, I'm gonna butcher this quote, but there's a Milton Friedman quote where he said that the, I think it was Friedman. Is this a soul quote? I think it's Friedman. He said that the primary impediment or lack of belief in free market solutions is a lack of belief in freedom itself. Is that Friedman or is that a soul quote? You know, I'm looking it up right now. Because- A general reason- That's my improper paraphrasing and probably misquoting. But I think that the gist of it is that I think that people really, a lot of times don't believe that other people are good enough or worthy of being allowed to be free. I think a lot of people have this sort of innate sense that other people, if left to their own devices, they would be fine, but everybody else would do bad things and would lie and cheat and steal and everything else. And the reality is I think everybody, nobody's perfect, there are no angels, but there are also no angels in government either. I mean, it's all people everywhere. So it's not, it's such a weird argument to me to say that you can't allow people to be free. Well, while saying that people are the same infallible, you know, same very fallible people then have the power to control everybody else, which is, you know, it's kind of a weird logic to it, right? Like you're not good enough, but somehow this other person, you've now handed all of your power to, that person is better than everybody else. I don't particularly buy that, but I think that that's a big driver. I think the other thing, I was talking about this actually earlier today with some other people, but there's an element to this too that I think a lot of free market stuff is very hard. There's a seen and unseen problem here. I talked about this a lot in the last video, in the, you know, did we just set the economy on fire video? So much of what happens in policy has effects that are really wide ranging and really impossible to see because you can't see the network effects of all these things. You don't know how complex everything is. And so it's really easy. And I think we have a little bit of a fairytale mindset in a way that we tell stories to ourselves where it's like, you know, and then the king came, you know, then the good king came back and the kingdom lived happily ever after, right? Like it's always kind of that, like there's the evil ruler and then the good ruler comes back and everything is fine. The reality is like everything is super complex and people are the variables in all of this. People are always making their own choices. So you can't control what actually happened. So you might say like, well, I really think that everybody should, you know, everybody should have, you know, everybody should ride a bicycle. So we're gonna subsidize bicycles. Well, what might happen if you do that is that a lot of bicycle manufacturers end up getting very, very rich, but then other people start figuring out how to get those subsidies too. And then suddenly you have, you know, a lot of people riding motorized bicycles or something else that the policy didn't account for that maybe goes against the idea of the policy, you know? I mean, Sarah is probably a terrible example, but it's just too complicated and it's really, really hard for people to see that. And I think it's easier to just sort of think there's a strong man over there, he'll solve my problem. And honestly, I think that's always been kind of the biggest challenge is getting the things that are really hard to see and turning those things into things that are visible. And that's what I try to do with that frame. I don't know if it's always successful, but I think the last video is really good example of that. Hopefully we managed to do something like that. I'll end it there. I could probably talk on that subject for a long time. Yeah, so the next question comes from Jorge Hernandez. And Jorge asks, will you ever do an episode where the Sopranos is a talking point? I am a little embarrassed to say I've never watched the Sopranos. I didn't have HBO growing up or in college. It was on when I was in college. And so I never watched it. And it was like end of cable pre-streaming. So I had no means of watching it. Now I'd have to go back and watch episodes. And again, it's a little embarrassing to say this, but I struggle probably just as much as anyone else does with content that is not 16 by nine widescreen. Going back to things that are four by three on a widescreen TV is a little maddening. And so I don't do it a whole lot. I've only done it a couple of times with like very old shows or movies and things like that. I'll go back and watch the Maltese Falcon in that format and sort of be okay. But yeah, anyway, so the answer is I wouldn't be opposed to it but I actually have to watch the show first. So maybe, but I got to watch Sopranos. Sorry, James can't see me. I've only heard good things, I apologize. Our next question comes from Michael Blair who was a patron of ours on Patreon. Thanks so much, Michael. And he asks, I'm curious about your thoughts on the impact to the performing arts, movies, TV, stage, et cetera of continued social distancing. Social distancing and masks appear to be policies intended to persist well after reopening and both would seem to be quite problematic for the performing arts. I think it's, you know, it's gonna vary like everything's gonna vary by the art form but man, live audiences, at least for a while seems really unlikely. This is an area where I'm actually kind of bummed out the moment because I said in the last video I have a large number of friends who still work in that industry, a tremendous number of whom are performers. Some of the really, really good ones, the ones that are already very well established, I don't wanna say good ones, even the ones, the ones that are really established in their careers I should say because there are a lot of them who aren't as well established who are still top notch incredible performers. The ones who are really well established have found ways of doing some things to still make money during all of this. One of my friends, a professional cellist who works for Hans Zimmer and is a featured player on all of his live shows and stuff like that and she's the cellist for Wonder Woman and all of those things. She's been, you know, taking remote recording sessions. She's been doing, she's actually been recording a sample library. There are things like that that some performers can do that are fine. On the other hand, I have a really dear friend of mine as a costume designer who hasn't been working. She's a single mom and she has not had a job. I don't think since the end of February. All of her gigs, she primarily worked for big live shows, parties and like corporate events in Las Vegas and Los Angeles and those are gone. Like they're just absolutely gone and I don't know if they're coming back at least not soon. I think it's gonna take a good while for people to get comfortable with that. So I think the impact is gonna be pretty severe. I also think that of, you know, of all of the parts of society that will, I don't know, it's hard to say. Like I think there are reasons to believe that the entertainment industry just kind of, I hate to say it, but kind of politically is going to be a little slow to move back into this stuff just because I think that they're, they've kind of hitched their wagon to the like, the pro lockdown, really aggressively pro lockdown side. Although on the other hand, I actually know a lot of people who've lost their jobs and that's gonna put some pressure on them to go back to work. But I think for the above the line people, I don't know if everybody knows what that term means but in films, there's what you call above the line and below the line which is kind of a classist way of saying these are the people who actually get points. They get a percentage of the gross on the movie that they've made. And then the below the line people are all the crew. Thing is like in Hollywood, the above the line people typically are celebrities, producers, you know, pretty high level actors, stuff like that who can survive for a good long while without working. The below the line people aren't. Like the below the line people are the ones who actually do this as gig workers day in and day out. And honestly, most of those aren't getting unemployment. So I think they're gonna be screaming and shouting to, they already are. But I think they're gonna be screaming and shouting to get back to work fairly quickly. I just don't know though. I think that there's a lot of things like live entertainment, I think is gonna struggle for a good while. I think people will figure out how to make movies and TV shows again, because you can kind of distance yourself pretty easily on sets most of the time. Depends on the thing. You know, if you're an editor or if you're a composer, you can basically work alone. So that's not usually a huge problem. But yeah, getting a crowd together for a concert is, I just don't know. I don't know where that's gonna go. And I don't think that the Zoom concerts and stuff like that, it's cute, but I don't think it's a replacement for any of that. I don't think it's a replacement financially or for what a concert is and what the concert experience is. I think you need like live performance. There's something really magical about live performance. Sorry, I don't have like a real better answer than that. It's just, I think it's gonna be kind of a mess for a while, unfortunately. All right. Thanks. Our next question comes from Shea Ballard and Shea asks, have you always been into movies? Yeah, I, man, it's going way back. So I grew up in Nebraska in kind of a rural area. It wasn't the middle of nowhere really, but it was a subdivision that used to be a farm about 20 minutes outside of Lincoln and went to a high school in a really tiny town. Honestly, I played soccer growing up, had, did a lot of camping and hiking and that kind of stuff. But if I wasn't doing that, I was probably watching TV or watching a movie. My dad probably played a role in this a little bit. He made it a habit of trying to buy all of the Oscar nominated films on VHS when we finally got like a VHS player, which is a big deal for me when I was probably, I don't know, 10, something like that. And so we'd always have that kind of stuff. He also introduced me to things like Star Wars and Indiana Jones, E.T. really early in life. One of the things I really appreciated about my parents was that they read to me a lot as a kid. And I have always been a little bit more of an auditory learner, which not that surprising I became a musician after all. But if I wasn't watching TV or a movie, I had tapes of like audio plays and radio dramas and stuff like that. So I had tapes of Lone Ranger broadcasts and Superman radio from the 40s. And one of the best things I had, and still have, actually I still have all these things, was a set of the BBC's radio drama for the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, which I just wore out. Like I listened to those on loop pretty much for years and wore out those things. So yeah, that's never not been part of my life for sure. That's always been a big piece of it. Yeah. And I will say one thing about Sean watching movies. Sean watches movies as like an actual activity and not just a form of passive leisure. That's true. It's really quite impressive to behold. Next question comes from Austin Smith. And Austin says, I was wondering about overpopulation. What happens if we run out of agricultural land considering soil erodes and we may not always have that land? Well, first of all, I would say if that ever happens, I think it's a very, very, very long way off. Well, technologically speaking, what we've found is actually kind of the opposite, right? Like we found that we're using less land year after year to create more food for everybody, for a growing population. So we're actually producing more food on a lower footprint as we go. And I think that that will continue. So in general, I don't want to, like I don't want to dismiss the question, but I also think that the question is like sort of the facts of the world are actually going the opposite direction, which is great. And I think that that's going to continue because I think that the more that we are able to, not just like create, I mean, and I'm not a fan of any of this yet, but I can actually see a world where I would be like lab-grown meats, things like multi-tiered sort of skyscrapers of hydroponics, stuff like that. I mean, you can actually see that kind of thing happening. But to answer your question, I mean, it's what happens if we run out of agricultural land? As we start to do that, prices for food will, I mean, this is an economics answer, really. Prices for food are going to go up really, really quickly if that starts to happen. And the good thing about that in a way is that it encourages a lot of entrepreneurship. And that's really the interplay of all this stuff. I mean, we're gonna see this right now. I mean, food prices are going up because the production is way down at the moment. Not of everything, but of a lot of things. We're having meat shortages. I mean, there's a lot of problems right now. The prices I just read today, general supermarket prices are up by like 46% right now. And that sucks. It's really, really bad. But once people, and I wanna be clear, this only happens if people are actually free to make some changes. But once people start to be free to work again, those high prices are going to encourage an awful lot of resources to get directed into food production. And that will sort itself out eventually. It will just take a minute to do that. The thing that I worry about the most, especially if we ever got anywhere near that kind of world, is that that would only happen if we were living under a situation where nobody had any power or freedom to be entrepreneurial. I think as long as people are free to come up with entrepreneurial solutions to these kinds of problems, I don't think we're in much of any danger of that ever even becoming an issue. I think if we, on the other hand, lived in one of these totalitarian, nightmarish, dystopian futures, I think that actually is a possibility because we've actually seen it, famines from authoritarian regimes over and over and over throughout history. So I, sorry, I'm kind of like sidestepping the question a little bit, but I really think the key is elsewhere. I think the key is allowing entrepreneurship. And then I don't think we'll ever see that. All right, next question comes from memewatcher3 and memewatcher3 asks, how has quarantine been for you? Man, good and bad. I really like going to movies. And I used to go to movies in theater close to once a week. I mean, there'd be periods and we were kind of living through one right before quarantine started where there was not a lot to go see. But I was really looking forward to stuff that started to come out in March and April and all that stuff has been kind of postponed or canceled or just going straight to VOD or whatever. My wife and I also really like to go out to eat. And so that's been kind of a bummer too. But if I'm being honest, it's really not been that bad because I'm a little bit of an introvert in general, at least in the sort of more psychological sense where I don't really get a lot of energy from being around crowds. Like I like being alone. I like being able to kind of immerse myself in sort of personal stuff. Like whatever, I kind of, you know, I mean, look at my room. I got keyboard and 3D printer back there and stuff. I'm kind of like doing this kind of stuff. And then also my wife and I have a house where I have an office. She has an office next door. And so it's pretty easy for both of us to work from home. Quick shout out to my whole team at Fee. Like everybody's been amazing and doing even more than they were doing before we somehow left the office. Like it's been pretty good from that standpoint. But I'm tired of it, you know? And I'm more tired of it for watching just the decimation of almost everybody's lives. And I do mean that in both senses. I mean that in terms of the death toll, which has been horrible, but also I mean it in watching people get laid off. I mean, I've got so many friends. My brother is a construction manager in New York and the kind of construction that he does got declared non-essential. He had to lay off 50 people immediately. That was over a month ago. It was maybe a month and a half ago, you know? And that's brutal. And I bummed out with that kind of stuff. So, yeah, hopefully quarantine is going at least that okay for everyone else, but if it's going worse. And I'm sorry, sucks. All right, next question comes from Nebulo89. And they ask, is there a way to suggest movies for future episodes? Well, I was not trying to make this whole thing like an epic Patreon plug all the time, but part of the perks that we were offering for Patreon is to allow people to vote on episode ideas. So that is one thing. If you are not currently a Patreon supporter, then please head on over there and check that out because that is one way to do it. That said, I read the comments. I read comments all the time. You guys probably know I respond to a whole lot of them and people put up suggestions for future episodes all the time and I read them and I take them seriously. I don't always do them because like the question earlier about the Sopranos, I may not have seen the show. It may not have meant to me what it might have meant to you. People pitch anime a lot and I'm not a huge anime guy. And so there's just like a wide universe of anime out there that I've never seen and then people will be like, you know, like you gotta do one on one punch man. I'm like, I've watched like one episode of that. I don't, doesn't mean that much to me, you know? But yeah, I mean, I'll take suggestions from anywhere. I mean, I'll be honest, I still don't know what I'm doing for next month yet and I need to figure that out today or tomorrow. So yeah, but please join us on Patreon. This has been a kind of new experiment for us and even if it's only three bucks or whatever, we'd love to hopefully people show their support. So anyway, yeah. All right, the next question comes from Sean, probably gonna butcher this last name, Machowski. There we go. And Sean asks, how do you pick topics for out of frame? Oh, that was such a good segue from the last question. Oh man, it's an interesting process. If you could call it a process. It's gotta be a little bit of alchemy to it because it's gotta be something that I have seen and or for the shorts, like at least something that Jen has seen and really even with the shorts, I need to have seen it because I rewrite them and, you know, I've gotta have something to say about it. I've gotta have seen it, I've gotta care about it to some degree, even if I don't like it, right? Like even if it was something that made me kind of angry like Jack Ryan season two, I've gotta have some feeling about it. So there's part of it is that. And then it's also gotta fit the intersection of like, I also have something to say about it because there's a ton of movies that I love, really genuinely love, but like there's not really any point that I would make that fits the series, you know? Because the series is not just about talking about movies in general, right? I'm not just doing movie reviews. If I was doing movie reviews, we could just literally do whatever the next, you know, most recent release was on any platform and call it good, but it's also gotta be something that, you know, fits in with Fee's philosophy and with my philosophy and how I see the world and something that I also think that other people might be interested to learn and know about, you know? I've been fortunate that I can, I've been able to find a lot of that in a lot of movies that have come out recently, particularly like the Marvel stuff, not every Marvel movie has allowed for this, but I think most of them have allowed, you know, between Civil War and, you know, the Winter Soldier episode I just did. I mean, it's just a layup, right? Like it's something where it's a super popular movie. It's a movie that I really loved and it's a movie that opened the door super wide to talking about, you know, the national security state and the war on terror and all of those kinds of things and really to link that up to what we're doing now with like kind of draconian policies and stuff that's going on in other parts of the world. Like all of those things kind of came together really, really well and that's what has to happen in general. So I'm, you know, like Jen said, I do when I watch movies, I am actively watching them and thinking about them. So that helps because it's given me a little bit of a library to draw from when I'm thinking about what the next episode will be. But if it can fit something that's super popular, something that I actually wanna say and something that I'm actually passionate about, that's the intersection and not everything, you know, fits that. By the way, sorry, some things that sort of fit that or some things that would fit that to some degree in terms of fit something I really wanna say and something that's at least something that I'm passionate about, the audience is so niche for it that it just wouldn't be a very good episode to put on YouTube. We've made that mistake, call it a mistake. I did an episode on the shape of water which I really enjoyed. I found something interesting that I thought was interesting to say about it and, you know, it was a movie that I don't know that that many people watched. So, yeah. So it goes. But that's the intersection, you can find that. That's it. Yeah, finding that sweet spot is not the easiest. So, next question. Sorry, Jen. Jen's has been writing some of these shorts since we started doing those this year and now Jen is feeling my pain on some of these where it's like, what was that? You watched Molly's game because I was gonna talk, I was thinking about Molly's game and then you were like, oh, it's like, there's some stuff, like some entrepreneurship stuff in there but like, not enough just like didn't work, you know. I think I probably watched, I watched a movie that didn't make the cut. I watched an entire TV season that didn't make the cut. Just trying to figure out, just find the topic for the next out of frame short. And that one was probably the most maddening so far. I mean, I've gone down that road before where I've like started writing an episode and written maybe two or three pages and then it was just like, this is boring and I'm out. And I think I do think though that that's important. And if I can turn this into a tiny little soapbox on like anybody who wants to start, not to start a YouTube channel but produce any kind of content for a living at all or even just personally, being willing to back out of something that's not working is actually pretty crucial trait skill to have because like it's very, very easy to get into this sort of sunk cost fallacy. Like you've been writing a book for a year and you were just committed to finishing this book even though it's horrible and it's not going where you want it to go. There's actually nothing wrong with scrapping it and starting something new. And it's a lesson that I learned from being a composer actually. And when I was in college, I had friends and I still have friends and I kind of feel bad for them a little bit who would work on the same piece of music for years and years and years and they would just keep tweaking and keep tweaking and then come back and make another edit. And anytime you go like, are you ready to share that with people? No, no, it's not ready yet, it's not ready yet. And what I learned was that quite often if you're doing that you have really fundamental structural problems that you cannot fix with tweaks and then it's better to just scrap it and start over and or finish it, not be happy with the results and start over. Because actually I think finishing it is fine but just knowing that like this is not your best work get it done, set it aside, learn from it, start over, move on, do the next one. And I feel the same way about doing episodes here. Like if we go down a rabbit hole about a series or a video or something like a movie or whatever that like doesn't work, like it's okay. You know, those failures happen and it's all right. We'll scrap it. We'll start over. Jen will watch another whole series of television show that doesn't work. Oh yes. And on that same note, I have a novel that I've been working on for forever and I've probably restarted that thing at least 10 times because I'll get deep into it. Like I'm talking like 50, 60, 70,000 words into it and realize that nope, I just set this up incorrectly from the beginning and I have to start over. So. That's what you learn so much writing is how much of the things that work or don't work in the middle or the end are the thing or how you set it up at the beginning. And if you screwed up your setup, like it will never come together the way that you want ever. You can't make it work. No, no amount of editing is ever gonna fix that. So it's, the struggle is very real in any sort of creative endeavor. Let's see here. Next question. Hey, here we go. Comes from Mario Babich. I'm gonna guess is how we pronounce Mario's last name going with the Italian pronunciation here. Are you more aligned with the Austrian school or the Chicago school of economics? I would say that I'm far more aligned with the Austrian school in general. And this is largely because the Austrian school what's different about these? This is a pretty wonky question to some extent, but for those who aren't familiar, economics like any intellectual discipline has a ton of different schools of thought. And so there's, you know, Keynesian schools and the London school of economics is sort of freshwater, saltwater and continental. There's all these different ways of looking at the discipline. The key thing that separates the Austrians out from basically everyone else is a methodological difference. And it's starting with human individuals as the agent of economic decision-making. So Keynesians and the Chicago school is sort of saddled in between sort of a Keynesian approach and an Austrian approach in that it is a fairly individualistic school of thought, but it also relies heavily on Keynesian assumptions of big macro models. And it's a little bit more kind of classical economics. And what I love about Austrian economists and I mean going back to, you know, Bob Bauer and, you know, Beber and Schumpeter and those guys is that they fundamentally understood, you know, and Mises and Hayek and et cetera. They're actually looking at the individual as the core unit of economic decision-making. And without doing that, I think all of the other schools actually do a disservice to the discipline quite a lot because, and look, I'm not a trained economist. I've just been doing this for 12 years or so. And so I have built up a lot of time reading stuff and I've got a lot of PhD economists friends and they run the gamut different schools. And so I'm not the guy to tell you exactly what's true or false. But what I will say is that, you know, I think if you're looking at the economy as in really aggregated terms, if you're looking at the macro economy and you're forgetting that it's all individual people making decisions, it's gonna lead you to a lot of really bad conclusions, which is why I would say I'm aligned more to the Austrian side. That said, I like Friedman, I like Seoul, I like all the guys from Chicago. Even like guys like Richard Taylor, I've read a lot of his work. I think it's really great. All right, next question is from Daniel Baker and Daniel wants to know about the various benefits that are for Patreon subscribers. What are the benefits for Patreon subscribers? All of that lovely information on patreon.com slash out of frame show. So thanks for the opportunity to do that plug. But in general, right now, we're kind of testing the waters with Patreon. So there's a $3, a $10 and a $50 tier. I don't really know what people are that interested in. So right now it's basically $3. You'll get added to our private Facebook group, which anybody can do that. With the $10 tier, we'll do more AMAs like this. We'll do some behind the scenes stuff. And actually the $50 tier will do like master classes and things like that. So, but that said, I don't entirely know. It's kind of an experiment. So over time, you know, if we find out that people are interested in different kinds of perks, we will go that direction. We also have a couple, I don't wanna give them away yet because they're not finished, but we've got a couple little surprise things that will mail people at the $10 and $50 tiers. But yeah, well, we're just gonna see where this goes. But honestly, I just, I wanna say to anybody who is already a supporter or was thinking about supporting us on Patreon, I would just wanna say thank you because this has been a really fun thing for me to do. I've spent a lot of years being kind of constrained with the kinds of content that I could make because I was working, you know, as an editor or as a producer for other people's teams. And even when I had run my own teams before this, you know, I would be working for think tanks or for other clients who really did not have the vision or the flexibility to do this kind of stuff. Working for Fee has been super cool for me because I've not only gotten to build a team, the way that I really wanted to build a team, I've also had the flexibility and freedom to make pretty much whatever kinds of content I thought would work best, given who we are, what we have to say, what our, you know, YouTube, you know, audiences want and all those kinds of things. So I've just, honestly, the last couple of years, I've just been able to talk about movies every month and do something that I've really loved doing and still get paid for it. And so with Patreon, that would just create us up to actually spend more of our time on this and make more of these kinds of shows, make more shorts every month. We've been talking for quite a while about starting a podcast and we'd really like to be able to invest some resources in that too. And so for me, it's just a little bit of gratitude. Like if you guys like this and you wanna support us there, thank you, appreciate it. Awesome, yes, thank you all so much. And because, not least of which, of all, because it helps me out as well. So thank you. Next question comes from Durandal's fate and they would like to know, they would like to have a little bit more clarification on what it means that Sean watches movies actively. What do we mean by that? What do you mean by that? What do you mean by, you're the one who said it. So I'll just- I didn't. Okay. I have thoughts on it but you answer that question. Okay. So for a very long time, my experience with watching movies and TV shows, it's very much been a passive leisurely way to pass the time. I'm not, I wasn't really actively engaged with the content that I was consuming. I just, I knew if I enjoyed it or if I didn't enjoy it but I frequently would just turn my brain off during a movie or a TV show and just let it wash over me. And if I felt feelings great, if I didn't, whatever, it's fine. I had pretty colors. But since being friends with you, Sean and working with you at Fee, I've discovered that you tend to watch movies the way that writers frequently read books, if that makes sense to anybody. And that means that it is not a passive form of entertainment. You treat it like a hobby, like it's an activity that you're fully engaged with. And your brain is constantly working when you watch movies. You're making connections and seeing things that most people don't notice when they're watching movies. And yeah, that's what I mean when I say that Sean watches movies actively as opposed to passively. So the thing that I think I would add to that, and that's correct, that's pretty much accurate. The thing I would add to that is that when I was in music school, I used to have friends of mine who were musicians as a hobby or they played in a rock band or something like that when they were in high school or whatever. And then they would find out that I hadn't had music degrees and they'd be like, oh, I could never, I love playing music, but I could never turn that into a job. Then I would just be thinking about it and it would just be work to me. And I thought, well, that's a weird way to look at it because what music school did for me was allow me to experience music as a listener in a way that most people can't. Like I hear independent lines in music, so I can separate stuff out and listen to just the bass or just the guitar or just even on an orchestra, just violins one or two or cellos or, you know, things that I notice subconsciously like living on a prayer starts with finger cymbals for some dumb reason. I have no idea why the producers decided that that would be a thing that they would open the song with, but I hear all of that and I pay attention to it. So it's not a burden. It actually opens a just a like a huge world of exploration inside of the content that I would never have had had I not been able to develop those skills. And I think movies, I treat movies the same way as I've been an editor for a long time. I've been a producer for a long time. I've worked in the entertainment industry. I've worked as a composer, as a music supervisor, as a music editor. I've worked as a film editor, video editor. I've produced numerous documentaries, hundreds, maybe thousands at this point of digital, of short videos for, you know, like digital content. And so I, you know, I see when like one frame is off, Pavel can back me up like that. I see when, you know, like in design where something is like literally just a pixel, a skew. And it, I can treat that as something that's obnoxious, but I actually treat it as a way of seeing more and enjoying more. So when something is done really, really, really well, like I don't just appreciate it on the like surface level of like, oh, that was cool. I appreciate it on a level of like, oh my God, to actually do that. I was thinking about 1917 and what Nolan did with all the, pretty much that entire film, you know, like it's just utterly mind-blowing. And when you actually really deeply understand like what it takes to do all of that stuff, you can really start to experience that kind of stuff on a different level. And I actually think that that's kind of fun for me. And to Jen's point, it does make it kind of a hobby because you are really actively engaged while you're watching. But the other thing I do is I think a lot of, I've done a lot of writing as well. And I've read a ton of screenwriting books over the years and I've written a lot of things for, you know, for video. And so I also think about the themes and the sub, you know, the subtext and the meta text and context, all of these things that go into writing. And so it's hard for me to turn any of that stuff off. But it also means it makes it easier to write out of frame episodes. Cause I don't think I could do this series had I not actually had that way of thinking about movies. I think they're really interlinked. So, but yeah, I think that's what really getting it. I honestly, I would say for anybody who's actually watching, I hope you have something that in your life that you do that with. I really do. Because it's like, it's super cool if you can geek out that much on something. And I don't really get, you know, because it's fishing or whatever, like whatever it is that you're that passionate about. I want that for you. That'd be cool. Awesome. Next question comes from Lucky Punch Productions. And they ask, are there any movies or TV shows that crystallized your libertarian viewpoint? For them, it was The Wire. I've heard that a lot about The Wire over the years. I watched some of The Wire, but not all of The Wire and The Wire has the same Sopranos problem of being four by three for most of it. To go back and watch. No, not really. Because I kind of came to a lot of this stuff independently and philosophically. And it was, it's a weird journey that starts with like not being like questions about religion, questions about, you know, just philosophy in general. I was way more influenced philosophically by books. And honestly, not that much in the way of fiction. Probably Candid influenced me a great deal as far as fiction books go. I read The Fountainhead when I was fairly young, but I was already, I had already thought a lot of that stuff. So it was more like things that were, it was solidifying in the sense that it made me feel like there were other people out there. But prior to that, I had read stuff like Brave New World or 1984, Fahrenheit 451. Those things had a much bigger impact on me, I think, than movies did. I mean, most of the movies, I don't know, I just, I don't think I had seen a whole lot. Maybe passively things like 12 Angry Men might have made a little bit of an impact on me when I was a kid, because my dad had that and I had watched that pretty early on. But no, it was mostly books and thinking. All right, I'm super excited about this next question because I know that you have strong opinions on it. This is from Haywire of Alba. And they ask, what is your opinion on mayonnaise? I don't have that strong opinions on it. I like mayonnaise. I do. I've been eating dinner at your house, you have opinions about mayonnaise. I have some opinions about mayonnaise. I'm not the one calling, sorry, none of you guys know this, it's calling opinions on mayonnaise. Anyway, I like mayonnaise. Okay, mayonnaise is great. Emulsions are good, I like cooking. There's nothing wrong with mayonnaise. All right. Very good. Okay. The next question is also again. I'm gonna take a stand on one condiment though. No tomatoes or sandwiches. You know what, I agree. Tomatoes make sandwiches slippery, they're unnecessary. I'm talking. Get them out of your sandwich. You can have them in other contexts, they're just fine, but like, not on a sandwich, get it out of there. That's my one condiment stance. All right. So the next question, once again comes from Lucky Punch Productions and they ask, non-leftists often get accused of being a shill or ex-funded. So what is the editorial process like at fee and do they tell you what viewpoint to push? In short, are you a shill? No, I write out of frame episodes and I built up enough good, frankly, I didn't even show anybody my episodes at the beginning of the series. And now I write almost entirely, and maybe I shouldn't by the way, but I write almost entirely in a vacuum and write whatever I want. And then we make the video as I write it and that is it. That's the total extent of the editorial process. I do solicit feedback from people because I want to make sure that I am saying smart things and I'm not being an idiot, but and also that I've written things acceptably and I haven't missed really important things. But honestly, a lot of the editorial process for me is actually kind of baked into the recording process, if that's, it's kind of weird to say, like I do a lot of passes for myself for the written version, but the reality is if you've ever actually had to record something and said words out loud, you find fairly quickly that no matter what you've written and how well you understand your own voice, the minute that it comes out of your mouth, you're gonna make changes because it sounds weird. So I make changes for that reason pretty much, but no, there is no, I've never been told by a donor what to say, I've never even been told by somebody as an executive. That's not that I work with at fee, what to say. Never been a part of it, not once. The closest thing we came was a donor got mad at seeing a preview of a video that I made. And I literally just changed the order of a couple things in it and it was fine. And they got mad because they thought that it was, they didn't get the point of it. Sorry, I don't wanna get into this that much because it's kind of like, just kind of silly. They just didn't get the point. And so what I discovered from it was that I actually kind of wrote it in a way that buried the lead and the donor who had watched the preview didn't get past like the first 30 or 45 seconds of it, which is kind of silly, but is what it is. And so I reversed it, so the point was front loaded. That was on the Daryl Davis episode about making friends from enemies. And by the way, I'm really proud of that episode and I actually kind of liked the end result. That was the closest ever came and I didn't actually change a word of it. I just, whoop, did that pretty much. Yep, remember when that happened. All right, so the next question comes from QNTKKA. And they ask, what are your favorite bands? Favorite bands. This is a big, big, big expansive question. And I do have lots of thoughts on this. I would break it down by genre, but I don't really feel like I want to spend literally all day doing this. So I'll just list a few. I have a lot of favorites. So I'm a jazz player by training and trade, sort of. I played and ran jazz quartets for a long time, a vibraphonist, if anybody knows what that is, and a drummer. And so I have a lot of people in that world that I really, really love. Milt Jackson, Gary Burton, Tito Puente, Cal Jader, Stefan Harris, actually. It's a modern current vibrist working today that I really like. So there's all that kind of stuff, and that gets you into a lot of Latin jazz stuff, Arturo Sandoval, Poncha Sanchez, Charles Mingus, huge fan of, so there's a lot of that territory. But if you want to know about bands, the ones that I actually listen to, well, when I could drive every day, it's not really driving every day anymore, but when I was driving pretty much every day, very high percentage chance that you would hear ACDC, Huey Lewis in the news, electric light orchestra, pretty high up on the list, or you might hear Louis Prima. That'd probably be a big one. And it's, my tastes pretty wide ranging, but those are pretty high, high up there. Good friend of mine's band, Royal Crown Review. I want to give a shout out to as well, it's one of my all time favorite kind of neo swing bands from the late nineties. And my buddy is their drummer and he's phenomenal. And he has also been, he's been out of work in terms of gigs, but he's actually been able to supplement that with distance learning. He's doing remote classes for people and workshops and stuff. So that's pretty cool, but yeah, those are probably the, probably the big ones. Queen, I listen to Queen pretty much all day, every day. Van Halen, it's also on the list. Yeah, those are the ones that are probably actually on rotation a whole lot. Yeah, I could go on with that one for way too long. So I'm gonna stop. All right, next question comes from Richards Reviews. They ask, what is a film you disagree with, but think is well made? There's actually, I mean, there's a ton, honestly. Gosh, you know, I could go back to stuff like it's a wonderful life, which I think is really tremendously well made, but I don't particularly care for in a lot of ways. That's probably a longer conversation. Almost anything Oliver Stone has ever made, if I'm being honest. I mean, like Natural Born Killers, JFK. JFK is probably the best example here because like it's conspiracy theory and lunacy, like wall to wall, it's an excellent film. It's a lot of modern stuff too, I think. I mean, there's so much now that Michael Clayton, I think would be a good example. I think Michael Clayton, there's a lot of stuff that I don't particularly agree with in there. There are some things that I think are kind of on the bubble of that that I think in theory, I think they're good films. They're not as good films as people gave them credit for like Elysium, which I really vehemently disagree with, but it's not a great film in the same sense, like it's okay. Yeah, I'm trying to think. Jen, do you have any while I ponder if there are any other really good examples? Do you have any that fit this bill for you? Oh, goodness. You know, it's difficult for me because I tend to get caught up in like the dialogue part of a movie because I come from like a fiction writing background and writing stories and how people talk to each other. And so I'm very like word-oriented with regards to movies. And even if I'm watching a movie that I enjoy otherwise and like they misuse a word, it really triggers me. Like it makes me really mad. The worst offender for that is probably when people misuse the word anarchy or anarchist, that's a big one for me. And that was a huge one in one of one of the more recent Mission Impossible movies. I don't know what number we're on now, like a bajillion, but this was probably like two or three movies before the most recent Mission Impossible, but I kept talking about this anarchist. Anarchist and it clearly not actually an anarchist did not want to abolish any sort of governmental authority. Just kind of wanted to wreck things and cause havoc. That happens all the time. That happens all the time. And it is one of my biggest pet peeves. Well, one of the coolest things was, sorry, this is kind of the reverse of this, but was in Legend of Korra, where you get the anarchist character, I'm blanking on his name now. Somebody in the comments will remind me of the guy who was the anarchist who's played by Henry Rollins. But anyway, I love that guy because he was actually like, not only was he about abolishing government, but then he was like abolishing any ties to anything. He was like, the most I'm going to be free from literally all constraints of any kind. And so he took that, the anarchist concept, not only consistently with government, but then just kept going with it. And I was like, at the beginning, when they're starting to talk about how it's like an anarchist uprising, I was like, oh no, this is gonna go so badly. And then it didn't. And it was great. I was like very excited about it. I don't know if I have, I'm sure there are a ton of movies lately. I mean, honestly, philosophically I'm at odds with the vast majority of the Lego movie. The Lego movie, actually. I kind of hate in philosophical terms, not the sort of the creativity message, but this sort of the very obvious backdrop of being like Lord President business and all that stuff, which I really don't like. But also the idea that everybody is awesome and like everything is awesome is like a thing that I really dislike in movies. And yet that is a beautifully made film. It's funny and the animation is top notch and really original and really cool. Anyway, yeah, I guarantee you there's a million more. Yeah, yeah. All right. The next question is from Sean Taylor, who is also one of our patrons on Patreon. Thank you, Sean. And he asks, where do you see out of frame going from where it is currently? That's a really good question. I'm not entirely sure. To be honest, I wanna keep doing the kind of expansive episodes that we're doing once a month. I wanna keep, I really wanna get on a better, tighter schedule for doing short episodes where we're doing them at least twice a month, probably on alternating weeks. We haven't quite hit that yet. Some of that's my fault just because I'm a little bit of the bottleneck on these things. I'm sitting on a script right now that I need to record and haven't. But I also, I really like the idea of bringing Jen and one of our other coworkers, Paul, who has been editing the short episodes. And I wanna bring Jen and Paul into a podcast where we talk about kind of whatever we want in terms of pop culture in a more free-flowing kind of way. And that's something that I'd really like to experiment with and see if people like it. I don't know, actually, I'll just ask the question. People in the comments are interested in that sort of thing. It's something that we've been kicking around for a while. We actually did a test episode. So I'd really like to do that kind of stuff. Besides that, I'm not really sure. I kind of take these things a little bit a month at a time or whatever just to kind of see where they go. But I like doing it. And I'd like to keep doing it as long as other people are interested. So that, I guess. Yeah. All right. Next question comes from, I'm gonna try real hard to pronounce this properly. Bayla Jute, that's my best guess. Have you read or watched Atlas Shrugged? And what were your thoughts on it? If you have. Both. And this is the reverse of the previous question, which is this is both a book and a series of movies that I agree with on a fundamental level and hate to a large extent. The book I read when I was, I first read the book, I should say, when I was 16, 17 years old. And even then, I think I found it to be unnecessarily long. You know, I mean, Galt's speech in that book is like 90 pages. There's just no, it's just not an elegantly written book. I mean, I hate to say that, but like the dialogue is kind of all over the place. It's kind of like an Aaron Sorkin movie or show where literally every character is just Ayn Rand talking in Ayn Rand's voice. Sorry, Aaron Sorkin, but you know what I mean. Or Tarantino, for being honest. Tarantino also does that except I actually like Tarantino's voice, so it's fine. The movie though, man, I was around when they were first started, like I was in this space. And so I knew some of the producers of that movie, actually, and I knew some of the people involved in it. And it's always kind of a bummer to be in that position because like it really, it's a bonkers, bizarre situation. For those who haven't seen it, I'm sure that's probably a lot of people, it's, sorry, it's, well, it's split into three parts and the three parts all have different actors. It's nutty, like it's a nutty way of doing it. They couldn't get the funding to do all of them at once. They couldn't keep the actors in place, like Rand's a state and ARI, forgive me if it wasn't ARI. It's one of the, whoever owns it, I think it was ARI. Again, sorry. Wouldn't really let them make any changes to it and Rand really needed an editor and she refused. And everybody since has refused. And if they would get an editor, I think it would have been a lot better, unfortunately. And I think that's, it's a bummer. Yeah, what were you gonna say? I was gonna say, to be clear, we're talking about just the quality of the dialogue and the writing and the production quality of the movies and stuff like that. Not necessarily what Rand was saying. No, no, not at all. This is what I always think is the disappointing part of this stuff is that like a really good, strong message that is inelegantly stated or poorly stated in a lot of cases is a travesty, right? I mean, it's, Galt's speech, let's just go back to Galt's speech for a second. Like, Galt's speech is a really important set of ideas baked into 90 pages, but it could have been baked into 10 or less even. And said better and less redundantly and less kind of in this kind of nagging, scolding kind of way, I just, it's just a bummer to me because I think that kind of stuff like deserves a voice. And by the way, I also think that Atlas Shrug's plot is really good. I actually think the plot is really strong. It's a great mystery plot. It's a really interesting, it's got really interesting sci-fi elements to it because like Galt's Gulch is filled with people who've made these like sort of advanced technology, like technological advance, I'm saying this weird, technological advancements and like clean energy and like sort of perpetual energy and you know, really cool stuff, right? Flying ships that otherwise wouldn't exist. You know, it's a very cool plot. I think it would be awesome for like a really good smart rewrite and like remake, even if it was like a conceptual remake, I think it'd be really cool. I just, it's just overloaded with badly constructed villains and dialogue, you know? And it's so bad, even the villains I think is another piece of this too because the villains are actually pretty realistic in the sense that like you can find those people all over the place, they just don't quite talk like that. They don't quite behave like, they don't, they're not as overt or on the surface as her villains. So by the way, it's five o'clock right now. We said we were gonna go till five. If it's cool with both Jen and Pawel, I'd like to go 10 over because internet and everything at the beginning kind of screwed it up. Are we all cool with that? We are all cool with that. I'm gonna assume Pawel's cool. I just suppose Pawel. All right, good. Okay, so let's do another one. So we got another, we've got enough time for another question or two. So we're gonna help out Vincent Brandy with Vincent's upcoming paper because Vincent asks, why should we value freedom over security? It's sort of a false dichotomy actually. Freedom is the root of all of the things that would provide you with actual security. Nobody was safe from anything and have never been, I don't think ever will be in a society that is unfree. I think if you look at North Korea or Venezuela currently, if you look at China, if you look at Iran, I mean, we've talked about all of these areas on the show. We talk about all kinds of tyrannical governments throughout history. Was anybody secure or safe in Nazi Germany? Was anybody secure or safe in the Soviet Union? You know, no, they weren't. In fact, they were far less safe and they were far more prone to not only being killed, murdered, its crime rates are way up in unfree societies. Murder rates are way up in unfree societies. Corruption is through the roof because in a really unfree society, the only way you can look around right now, right? You see all these economic shutdowns happening in the United States and people are sort of tolerating it for the most part, but if you imagine this going on for years and years and years and you need something and it doesn't exist because it's not allowed to exist, you still need it. Let's say you need medicine for your kid or you need food or you need something like new gutters for your house or whatever. The reality is you're gonna go try to find that and the only way you're going to be able to find that in a really unfree society is either on a black market or it's gonna be to bribe a government official to allow you whatever is in their stores and that happen all the time in the Soviet Union. You're not secure or safe or protected in a society where you don't have freedom. That's never going to happen. And so the idea of giving up freedom for that kind of security is entirely a false choice and it misunderstands the root of security. If you're free, you are much more secure. And if you're free, it also means that you have the ability to make choices that will allow you to defend yourself in certain ways. So, for example, a free society, we're talking about pandemic mostly, right? So in a free society, you could wear a hazmat suit around if you wanted to. You could stay in your home as long as you want to. You can do all of those kinds of things but in an unfree society, you're at the whim of whoever's in charge. If whoever's in charge says, we need all the masks because government people need to be protected. We need all the hazmat suits. We need to be protected. You're left to your own devices and you are not allowed to get anything. That's what you're stuck with, right? And the same thing is true across every area. I said this in the last episode as well but all of the things that we kind of take for granted, healthcare, the homes that we live in, air conditioning, food, shelter, water, decent clothing, cars, transportation, all that stuff is a product of people who have been historically mostly free to engage in trade and entrepreneurship and to exchange their skills and what they make, their goods and services with other people. When that goes away, you lose all those things. So we've already seen with this unintended consequences that include things like healthcare, medical supply shortages, shortages of different kinds of medicines. We've seen growing food shortages in different parts of the country, in different parts of the world. That makes it a lot worse for other parts of the world. Yeah, I just, I don't see a version of this where freedom is at odds with security. I think freedom is the thing that supports having an actually safe and increasingly healthy, secure society. I think all the things that we've done to reduce freedom in the name of security have cost us both in a pretty unfortunate way. Thus end with the soba. All right, next question comes from StrangelyUkrainian who asks, have you ever considered creating merch for the out-of-frame series? It's interesting that you asked that because we have a couple of things that we're working on. They are Patreon-only things right now, but they may become actual merch. So yes, yes we have. And I would be willing to explore more of that in the near future. I can't tell you what they are. We're gonna share them with other people? Just a secret. Let's see here. Just going back through the chat, there seems to be a conversation going on, or at least what's going on, about pertaining to good movies that we happen to disagree with. Talking about Jordan Peele's movies, specifically Get Out. Yeah, that. And I would love to chat about it. Let's do it. And since it was from multiple users, I'm just gonna give the class, the whole class credit for that one, thank you. I like it a lot. I think that actually I do, oddly enough I actually think it does make some pretty interesting points in terms of its philosophical underpinnings. I think there are some things to talk about in terms of class and race and things like that that are valid. I do think that it took a very caricatured approach to a lot of that stuff. And I got the impression that us did as well, though I didn't see us. I did not, I didn't see us because I actually didn't hear, I didn't have a lot of people telling me it was that good. I don't know, maybe I was wrong. But I like Get Out a lot. I thought as far as horror movies go, which is not really my genre to be fair, I thought it was one of the better ones that I've ever seen. I thought it was very tightly edited, well-paced. I thought the friend who shows up at the end was hilarious and great the entire way through. I don't remember the character's name now and I don't recall seeing that actor before. But yeah, I don't fully disagree with that movie though. I think it touched on some important stuff while just maybe taking it a little bit too far. That's kind of what I would say. And I'm going to agree with that one as well. Horror, I for a very long time thought that I just didn't like horror movies. And it turns out I just don't like bad horror movies. And it's been so long dominated by slasher films and torture porn and jump scares that I had been convinced that this was just not a genre that I enjoyed at all. But then I remember that I really enjoyed the exorcist that I really enjoyed, the silence of the lambs. And I'm like, it's not, I just don't enjoy crap horror. It has to actually be horrifying for me to enjoy. It has to induce that sense of dread, instead of just being startled and everybody's covered in blood. I think what people don't realize about the horror genre and that's exactly the same for me. I don't particularly care for horror as a genre because just so much of it is really bad. And, but what I think a lot of people don't realize is a lot of it's really bad because horror is the genre, weirdly horror is the genre that's kind of the easiest to make a quick buck on in movie making. They don't take that long to make and there's almost always a guaranteed audience beyond like a minimum quality standard. And because horror is a genre that deals in really visceral action, it can be done with almost no dialogue, which means that you can translate it to other countries incredibly easily. So there's like a weird commercial incentive in horror to make a lot of movies that aren't actually that great. But it also means that when you get a really good one, I mean, you mentioned the Exorcist, I think about the Shining, I think about the Omen. I think about, actually I think about some horror comedies that I really love like Tucker and Dale vs. Evil, which we watched recently or I like Cabin in the Woods. I actually went to see that in the theater. You know, A Silent Play, for example, phenomenal or Quiet Place, I was thinking Silent Hill and my brain got mixed. But A Quiet Place, I think was great too. Stuff like that, I think works really well. Anyway, let's do one more question and then call it. One more. What means I gotta go? One more. One more. Me kind of, where I can have horror is a genre. There's good horror movies. The thing, the thing. Excellent horror movies. The thing. Yeah, that one was a good one. I'm having to scroll back through the chat to find, someone asked me a good question, please. Let's see here. Everyone else asked terrible questions. The worst. That is not true. That is not true. Let's see here. We're gonna go back to Durandal's fate. Yeah, box as the asker. All right, so we're gonna go back to Durandal's fate for this last question. It's possible to depict the spirit of business and entrepreneurialism well and elegantly. Can it be done for the economy more generally or is that too abstract? Wow, that's tough. I would say it absolutely can. And there are hints of this in various movies. This actually gets us into a movie that I kind of disagree with and that I think is really good. In terms of its portrayal of American business is Lord of War. I think is a really good example of a movie that was very good at the opening sequence of Lord of War shows a very eye pencil-like production of a bullet for all the way from basically metal slag to shooting it at I think a kid or something. I mean, it's kind of a horrifying end state of that. But you could take that same framework, that same editorial direction and apply that to something like a sandwich that was not going to murder somebody at the end of the line. So you could show these things. You could show the network of all of these things better. I mean, look, even Contagion, which is kind of a horrible movie actually, did a pretty good job of tracing the path of a virus. And again, you've got to abstract this and apply it to something that's in the realm of human productivity and peace. But you could take that and do the kind of eye pencil story to show that web of the economy. I do think in general though, the economy is not a protagonist. It's not a villain. It's not a very good narrative centerpiece. You still need a story around that. Lord of War used that whole thing to show the kind of horror of the weapons manufacturing business and that sort of the cronyism and merchants playing both sides of different conflicts and stuff like that is kind of terrible. But it did do a very, very good job of showing how many people were involved in the creation of this one tiny thing. And if it tried to do that with something more complicated, these bullets are very simple thing comparatively. But if you tried to do that from the standpoint of the entire gun, for example, like the parts are coming from all over the world and being made by millions and millions of different people. So there's no reason why you couldn't take that same concept and apply it. But I do think that the economy is not really the thing. You still need to tell stories. And if you're gonna tell stories, you got to tell them about characters. And so I really think that you got to find your way in with a good entrepreneur. And there are some really good entrepreneurial movies. You know what I mean? There's stuff like Tucker, A Man in His Dreams which I think is a beautiful movie about entrepreneurship. I think Flash of Genius is a pretty good movie about entrepreneurship. Chef, which I did an episode on that most of you didn't really watch, tragic. But Chef is a beautiful entrepreneurial movie. And I think it's wonderful. They exist. But, you know, I think we could go farther and I think we could do better. So, yeah. We're at 5.15 now. This was a little bit over, but, you know, we were a little bit late. So I don't know who all watched. I'm not looking at the chat box. So Jen, please thank everybody for me in there. And this'll stay up on the channel. If you guys have other questions, feel free to leave comments. I'll read them and try to get to them. Please check us out on Patreon if you haven't. You know, it's not like a hard sell thing or anything, but if you like the show and you want to support us, give us a couple bucks. And we will try to make more and do more of this kind of stuff, you know, even bigger. So, yeah. Thank you, Jen. Thank you, Pavel. Thank you, everybody who watched. And I will see you next time. Bye. Thanks, everyone. Bye.