 It's the Tuesday edition of the Private Property Part, please join us for the first time. Welcome to the family. You're tuned into the only daily property show in South Africa, catering to your property needs. And it doesn't matter where you are on your property journey. We're certainly here to make sure that you have a better journey ahead. And to all our regular viewers, Facebook and Instagram on YouTube, welcome to it. You know how we do every single weekday. You and I have an appointment at 7 o'clock where an always-in-conversation of the property expert will help us make better property decisions. And talking about making better property decisions, you can catch our other great shows across private property's social media platforms every single weekday at 8 p.m. As it's a Tuesday, you can catch them by Linoa. Got on the farming podcast, tackling all things agriculture. And she's on your screens every Thursday at the same time. 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It is the other platforms, Facebook as well as Instagram, where there's minor glitches, but the show always continues, right here on private property. And of course, on the private property podcast with myself, Uzaman Domo, Milo. Well, to kick start our conversation this evening, we're talking a changing marital property regime. I'm joined by a Kathleen's label, a director at Mulefe's label Incorporated. Kathleen, good evening, and thank you so much for joining us this evening. Good evening, Uzama, and thank you for inviting me. And good evening to your listeners and your audience. And I think, Kathleen, before we even look at what happens when you change, things that you should be watching out for, when we talk about your marital property regime, what exactly is it that we are talking about? A marital property regime is, it's a principle of how you get married. And it's regulated by the Maternal Property Act of 88 of 1984. There were different property regimes before 1984, but the 1984 Act actually tried to conceptualize the marital regime in a sequence, you know? There are different types of marital regimes. As you know, marriage is an agreement between two people, and you have to discuss how you want to get married, because it affects the consequences and your consequences of your property, and how everything about you changes once you get married. And I think let's look at the different types of property regimes then that we effectively get Kathleen. Okay, we've got the original marriage in community of property, when both parties marry in community of property and they jointly own everything that they acquire. Then there's a marriage out of community of property with the application of the accrual system, where you can, it's an out of community of property, but you jointly own what you acquired after the marriage. But then there's a marriage out of community of property, we call it out and out, where yours is yours, mine is mine. But within a marriage out of community of property, you have to sign a contract, which is an anti-nuclear contract, and regulate the relationship of your marriage, how you want it to be regulated. So you have to sign that contract just before you get married, and it has to be registered before a lottery. And because once you get married without signing that contract, that means you are married in community of property. And I think I want to pick up on that, Kathleen, because I think we often find so many people tend to not be aware that you need to sign it before you effectively get married. It's not something that you can kind of wake up two weeks after the wedding day or even the following day, and say that you want to quickly sign it. If anything, that process is a whole process on its own, when you look at the contract that you're going to sign, that anti-neptial contract, perhaps give us a few pointers on what you should be looking out for when you're now talking to your partner about the anti-neptial contract that both of you are looking to sign. Okay, the anti-neptial contract, both as you know that now parties, before they get married, they come from somewhere, they've acquired properties from wherever they come from. So some of them they've inherited, some of them just donated. So an anti-neptial contract specifies what actually are you going to share if you get married, and what you don't want to share, what is yours and what is his. So we call it, it is definitely a contract, but you can't enter into it after the marriage until unless if you apply to court. Even if you enter into it in the money at seven, then you are getting married at 10, but the anti-neptial contract will actually state that it was signed at seven on such and such a day, and then you are getting married at 10. So it actually regulates all the consequences of the marriage, and what is the firm pattern of a joint property. I am this evening in conversation with Kathleen Leipzig, director at Muleford Leipzig Incorporated. We're looking at changing your marital property regime, whether you're married in community or property, or of course married out of community or property, you've signed an anti-neptial contract, whether you're looking at the cruel or not having the cruel system, and looking at the ins and outs, and of course how it affects you, especially when you have things like actual property at stake and of course other assets, or even children who are part of the equation. I want to find out from you, when you look at your marital contract, were you even aware of the different kinds of marital contracts that were available before you entered into your marriage, that many people tend to almost automatically find themselves being married in community or property, they weren't aware that there are different ways that you could enter into the institution of marriage. Were you aware, what were some of the pointers that you learned along the way, perhaps if you have an anti-neptial contract in place, what were some of the things that were very important for you to be included in that contract? Now, Kathleen, when we look at the anti-neptial contract, I think what are some of the mistakes that parties make when it comes to that anti-neptial contract? And I want us to even look at black people in particular, because I think sometimes when we look at the anti-neptial contract, people often think, oh, you know, Aunt Amy, do you think, I don't love you when they want to justify whether or not we shouldn't be signing an anti-neptial contract, when in effect, we really are protecting the family's assets. It's not even about individual trust, but it really is about best protecting the family and the family's assets. What are some common mistakes that we sometimes make when it comes to anti-neptial contracts? I think it's about the common mistake, before I go to the common mistake, I shouldn't, I must mention that there's another, a customary marriage, you know, especially when you enter into a customary marriage, there is a contract also. If you want to protect the property consequences, maybe twice, you can sign that contract, but it has to be registered at the same time. But one of the common mistakes that we do, we tend to believe that when you are married out of community or property, you don't love each other, you know? And the contract actually regulates your proprietary consequences when you divorce or when you die, you know? Because that's basically where the problems start on the time of divorce. So if I'm having my family house, then Mr. comes into my space, then if we did not sign that contract, we have to share that family house. Only to find we have other siblings and now the other siblings are outside of the whole equation. So it's always important to say, to put into paper and say, this is my family house, I inherited it from my parents, let me protect it by in a contract, saying that you found me with this family house, it does not form patent parcel of the marriage. So those, especially in over property, especially with our communities, the family house has become such a sad issue when divorce is okay and death is okay, because some of the people are being charged change because you didn't indicate that it is a family house. And I think, you know, when we think about the politics of the family house, even outside of marriage, just within the siblings of the grandchildren was supposed to essentially share the family home. We already have so much drama and it gets highly contested. I can only imagine then the dynamic that it adds in, if you're one of the, it is to that family, you know, family home and then you get married and it's not adequately stipulated that this is actually won't form part of, you know, what you go into a marriage with. I want us to go for a quick break, find out who the lucky winner of the competition that we're running on Facebook. I already know that on Facebook, we're having a few issues. Unfortunately, it's a Facebook issue. The team is trying to get us on Facebook, but we are, of course, coming to you across our other social media platforms. We do apologize for that. And of course, after we come back from this break, I'll also read through some of the incredible entries that we also received from some of you at home who posted there on the Facebook page. But in the meantime, let's see who the lucky winner of that 500 Rands in cash is. And that lucky winner is Unduduzo Klint. Unduduzo Klint, the lucky winner of the 500 Rands that is in the money bag. Remember, you have to drop us a comment below. And if anything, I didn't say sliding to our DMs because I know that we are having a few issues with our Facebook page. And of course, do get in touch with us in order to claim that prize. As we continue the conversation with Kathleen Glebu, the director at the United States Glebu Incorporated, looking at changing your marital property regime. Now, Kathleen, I think we've looked at some of the mistakes that people also, you know, people often make with international contracts. What are the mistakes that people make when they enter into, you know, marriages in community of property? Because I think that one is so common we already know some of the drama that, you know, sometimes tends to come up. But what are some of those common mistakes certainly that attorneys end up having to deal with because of the mistakes that the two parties who've entered into their agreement have made? Okay, at the same time, the marriage, the anti-natural contracts get signed, executed before a lottery. So the lottery has to explain in detail to say, what do you want? It's your decision. What needs to be in that contract? So if you don't put everything in, maybe you're afraid of the other party, so it's a problem. But whatever goes into that paper is what both parties wish to be in that paper. The notary will actually explain what needs to be in that document but it's up to the parties if they really put it in. And I think, Kathleen, then when we look at changing, so you start, when you got married, you got married in the way of property, perhaps you weren't so clear about, you know, the different kinds of ways that one could get married. And you've now certainly gotten slightly more pulled up about the implications of, let's say, being married in the community of property and the potential threat to the family's assets. When you then want to change the marital status to have that contract in place where you're now no longer married in community of property, what are the active steps that you need to be taking? Dama, any change in the marital status, you have to go to court. You go to court and apply for the status of the marriage to be changed. And a lot of them is changing from in community of property to out of community of property is accrual. Basically, it happens because when you get married, sometimes you get married when you are still young and you tend to become a business person, you know? So you are trying to protect the other party from the obligations of the business and everything that will go wrong in that business so that whatever happens, if they have to declare you insolvent, it must be you alone and not affect the other party. And if there are creditors, it must be you alone and not affect the other party. So, but before you have to go to court, we call it a Section 21 application. So it's an application, it's an expert application. Firstly, you have to indicate to court why do you want to change their marital system? Normally, as I say, a business person, you've decided that you want to go into business, you don't want it to be affected. But if the property is bonded, you have to inform all the creditors. Once you have to inform the creditors because the court will want to see that the creditors have consented to your changing of the marriage, right? And the reason is why, for that is that they don't want the creditors to be prejudiced. You may find, change the marriage system, you can't even afford to pay that bond when you are alone. So the creditors need to know and find consent forms to say, we consent to the change of the marriage which we are not going to be prejudiced in the changing of the marriage. And in that application, you must attach the draft of what you intend doing, the intended anti-natural contract. The court will want to see that you're entering into a contract which is not, is proper. There are those contracts, we can't say to a person entering into a contract, I can only marry you if you bear me children and all those things, those things which are against the law. We call them contra bonos morres in law. So the court will want to see what you are going to intend doing. So once the court has given you that court order, you can go and register that contract, then the marriage is changed. So the court order and the contract are attached. The disoffice has to be notified of that. You serve that change. Remember when you are married, if you have property, the disoffice of record of your immovable property as married in commit of property. So if you want to change, you have to serve on the disoffice also to say that I'm changing my marriage so that they can amend their record. And we are in conversation this evening with the Captain Jeppeau Director at the Malifou Jeppeau Incorporated, taking your questions and comments. This evening we've got on our Facebook, on our YouTube page rather, Teatou Mounyai saying, if I married any community of property with someone who has children and their partner died, and I obliged to take care of those children according to the contract. So, you know, the partner dies, you're married to this person in community of property, they have children. And in the event where perhaps then the person that you married to also passes away, are you now obligated to be the guardian of those children? Depends on what you agreed upon. If you adopted those children as yours, you are obliged. Because they are your children. Once they are adopted, once they change into your surname, you are obliged to do that. But the minor children, obviously, if the other spouse dies, the children will inherit a portion of that, their mother or their dad who died. So, you've got half of the property and they inherit from the share of their mother or the dead whoever has passed on. But once you have adopted them, then you are obliged to do that. And I think then, Kathleen, when we look at the change of the marital property regime in the instance where people get divorced and obviously now, you know, assets need to be, you know, split or people have to go there, you know, their separate ways, depending on how people are married, how does that process typically work? And we can start with in the event where people are married in community of property and are now going through a divorce and then move on to when people had signed an anti-natural contract and are now in the process of getting divorced. But when married, people are married in community of property, then they get divorced. They either do two things. To enter into a settlement agreement, to say who takes what out of the marriage. But if they don't enter into a settlement agreement, then you have to go to court to apply for a receiver and liquidator. Somebody who will take charge of your property and divide the property for him, right? Which is the most expensive one. I always encourage couples to enter into an agreement and specify. But even if they've entered into an agreement, sometimes things don't go the way they want. So you still have to go to court and appoint a person called a receiver, an independent person called a receiver and liquidator who will take charge and distribute on your behalf. But when you're married out of community of property, the ANC, the anti-natural contract is your guide. If it's with a cruel, obviously, you'll check at the commencement value. If I married to Zama or somebody's married to Zama, Zama had 40,000. The other one at the commencement of marriage had 100,000. But when we divorce, Zama has 50,000 and the other one has a million, we have to equalize on the accrual. But what you had extruded, obviously, it will be approved. But when you are married out of community of property, what we call out and out, you keep what you have in terms of the contract. We've got to my question. I am saying I don't, on our YouTube page there, saying I don't want to do this question. Please allow me to ask now. Can we change the regime just before getting divorced, not asking for a friend? I hope I'm understanding it clearly, Magda. So before we actually get divorced, suppose you were married in community of property and now you want to perhaps change the nature of the marriage before perhaps at some point getting divorced. Is that something that would be possible, Kathleen? I don't think you get married through the intention of getting divorced. But if you feel that the partner is not in control of the matrimonial property well, you can apply to court. But I think it will be ingenious of you to say, I'm changing now, but the following year and divorcing, that's very ingenious. But if you agree to do that, there's nothing that prevents you. And then I think, Kathleen, divorces, and we're even saying of a divorcee thing is such an unpleasant experience to go through. And it's certainly one of those experiences that I know anybody who's even gone through it, attorneys who deal with divorces wouldn't wish it on anybody. But what are some common mistakes that people make when they're in the process of now divorcing, when it comes to the splitting of particularly the assets and even perhaps the liabilities? Just common mistakes that sometimes even drag up the divorce longer than it potentially should, or even end up costing either parties more money than it probably should have. The common mistake is that you haven't entered into a contract on how to regulate your marriage. But the problem is, divorces take the worst out of people. You suddenly hate the party who's next to you and you've been staying with that person for almost 20 years. For me, it's so unfortunate and uncalled for, and especially when they are children. So as I tell you, we normally try and make them see that the divorce won't only affect them, it will affect even the children. So I try and encourage them to come to a settlement which it will benefit both parties. That's why I spoke about mediation sometimes to say mediation is a win-win situation. But unfortunately, people who sometimes want to get divorced, they want to spite the other one. You can't get anything what I've worked for. But having forgotten that you stayed with this person for the past 20 years, even if that person is not working, she has contributed to have the marriage. I see, Matashina, I see clearly articulated thank you, Zana. So we definitely did get the righteous of what she was asking us. You don't want to change the nature of your marriage, knowing very well that you're going to divorce, or you're going to institute divorce proceedings in the next few months. I think that's definitely something that somebody wouldn't want to do. We've got Pralina Angosa saying, I'm afraid of marrying in community of property because all his debts will affect my credit score. Anyway, I envy those brave souls who go that route. I think, Kathleen, what are the perks if any of getting married in community of property? Because I know that that's a very big fear that we tend to have so many people have stories of relatives who are married that way and ended up losing quite a bit. When we look at the different kinds of marriage contracts that one could have, are there any benefits of getting married in community of property? From my personal view, because there is an anti-marriage out of community of property with a court, I've lately advised my client to do that because marriage or in community of property, the experiences that I've had, when things are bad, it becomes very sour. So you'd rather go into an anti-natural contract and say we will share what we have achieved together, and this is how we are going to share it. Because in an actual contract, you can even do donations, you can do anything, because it's a contract. But in community of property for me, I think things are changing. Things are changing. You find young women self-sustained, and even young men having inherited. So I'd rather go for a marriage in community of property, out of community of property with a cruel system, say that from the date we signed, if we have signed on the 23rd, then we start sharing from that date. But remember, this is meant for the day when things are bad, when you are divorcing, or when you die. It's not like, it happens while you are still happy. There's nothing wrong with community of property. If you love each other and trust each other, I don't have a problem. But for me, it's a better bet to maybe out of community of property with a cruel system. Because each party understands what they want. And who they are genuine, they understand and they trust each other. And Kathleen, as you wrap up our conversation, any final tips for our viewers at home when it comes to changing the status of your marriage? Any tips that they should keep in mind in the event where they're already married, or certainly for those at home who may want to get married in the future? I think for me, before you get married, try and source advice, you know? Because before, I'll advise you the types of marriages that you can enter into, so that by the time you get married, you'll be very well informed. There's no harm in doing that. But go and consult an attainee or a social worker or anybody to say what type of marriages are out there, you know? So before, because sometimes even as when we're young, we just got excited and got married in 20 to 30, you only discover when you want to be a business person to say, wow, that was a mistake, you know? So then to change a marriage system is quite expensive because we have to go to court and pay an attainee to do that. And advertising the newspaper, but we are changing our marriage system, yeah. And I guess, Kathleen, that's why we sometimes see people divorcing and then remarrying. Is that sometimes the reason why, you know, some people opt to rather divorce, even though they know that they're actually going to remarry in the summer round, sign that anti-neptal contract and stipulate where things should be going and how they should be going. Yes, I've seen people doing that, but it's quite risky. Because once you're divorced, if the other party doesn't want to remarry, then you are in problems. Yeah. I mean, that would be the worst thing. So you'd rather start a problem? Yeah, I think it would be the worst. I think that would actually be the worst when a party then decides not actually, they say it's fine, we don't need to do that again. Kathleen, we're going to leave it there this evening. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. It's always such a pleasure to have you with us. Oh, thank you. Thank you to your listeners. Thank you, Zama. Thanks. And that is Kathleen Neklepuku, who is a director at Militia Ilepo, Incorporated, talking about changing your marital property regime right here on the private property podcast with myself, Izama Dunwankumilo. Well, we have a roll over this evening. So tomorrow evening, you can expect 1,000 rands in the money bag. And we do apologize there for those technical glitches in the beginning and of the show. But the show always continues and we're always going to make sure that we give you a daily dose of all things relating to property. Well, that's it for myself, Izama Dunwankumilo and the rest of the team. We're going to be back on your screens tomorrow evening at 7 p.m. But do stay tuned for the farming podcast coming up at 8 with Umbali Moko. Until then, hoping you're staying home and staying safe.