 Great, so this session is going to be a panel discussion on 536. The title is Proposal to Economic Change, getting 500 people in comments and putting it to vote. So just in context for everyone, some of the first changes to the FOPCUM protocol must be proposed as an open source governance process that has a FIP or FOPCUM improvement proposal. They are then deliberated by the community and if general agreement is cleared with respect to the proposal's value, technical visibility, and the resolution of any raised issues or objections, the proposal is implemented in the next version of the next network. This is known as soft consensus. FIP36 is a proposal from the crypto economy that would fine-tune some core crypto-economic parameters in an attempt to incentivize longer-term behaviors in the line of open network. If accepted, this would mean changes to many business assumptions for network participants and storage providers, and therefore generated a lot of different perspectives that have not led to the normal soft consensus groups. 551 people in comments later, and with an ongoing vote for those stakeholders, this panel discussion seeks to explore the motivation, analysis governance process, and those salient questions surrounding FIP36. Our panelists are a plumber today. I'm very interested in FIP36 and FOPCUM. ZXTang, the leader for FIP37. Tom Mellon, lead researcher at FIP37. And Kate, the people who governs TDM at the FOPCUM Foundation. And my name is David. When I was in it, a lot of people have worked on inventing lots of FOPCUM, so I'm just kidding. So, just to start, let's start with one person contest. Well, we'll get into the technical details in a moment, but can you please summarize at high level what FIP36 is up until now? There's a lot of pieces on the set. I think the set will be very different in the proposed time. I think the same, I will submit the same, but now, and six months from now, in your video channel, I feel pretty good about that in the longer term. However, what it does in the proposed time is more of what is happening microthonically. The core of the FIP is one component to increase the duration of the fire for the use. So this means we want to extend the duration of the use. This comes from the goal of extending duration of the use. It comes from the monitoring goal of operating, of supporting the use for users that want to store their data for long periods of time. So that's the core of that time. The second piece is to incentivize the longer-term duration of the use, to encourage for many more participants to do that. So that introduces a longer fire alongside the Falcon Plus to incentivize the longer-term duration of the use. The third component is around increasing economic order, which is the target block in one of the categories, how much lateral is involved with adding sectors into the network. And that's going to be from 30 to 50. That's an economic parameter that we put into the network years ago. Similar to other economic numbers like that in other networks, since the launch of following and the evolution of many other networks, we've seen that those parameters should have to be much higher than we're easily anticipated. We just didn't know how the parameter would play out in the program. And so we decided that it would be, we thought it was a pretty reasonable conservative, probably 30 percent, since then the whole world is not in a long period of time. Now we think it should be higher. And in a larger case here, I think it should be much higher, which would be something like 60 to 70 percent, but that's a whole story for another year or so. But that, you know, there's many other conditions in there. Now the much larger macro discussion on this in this moment in time, and why now, we'll just say a year later, is that the token demand that would result as the lateral is increased, our economic change in this moment in a broader macroeconomic context, where there's a large set of economic changes happening in the world, and Boblin's economy is embedded within the broader macroeconomic economy. And so there's a goal set there around adjusting the economic parameters of Boblin as a response to what's happening in the broader world. So the why now is now because it seems to be important and valuable to adjust these parameters in this moment as opposed to, say, a year from now. But I have a person who's been seeing that in the future, one year or two years from now. I don't know if that's already worked before, but I'll correct something. I'm not the main author on the zip, so a lot of folks have worked on it dramatically more than I have. I kind of help describe it at the very beginning, and I've also been working on it nice, but that's pretty helpful. That's pretty helpful. So Boblin's age is where it's at work. Long-term commitment is a good thing. I want you to consider it. And there's also this broader macroeconomic backdrop that relies a lot on what the proposal has said and also how that's such as evolved over time. I think that's a really interesting point that you're going up. ZX or something else, if you want to talk about that, why now component a little bit more, talk a little bit more about this. I think that might be really helpful at this stage as we get more rebirth of the technical approach. Yes, yes. Yeah, sure. So I think there are a few factors on the macro level. I think that's within the network macro as a whole. We know all sectors on power, as an exploration. Right now, based on us, there's a massive wave potential exploration coming to the network. Well, maybe not all of them would expire, some of them might get extended or not, but there's a potential of this kind of... It's a constantly network that's always fighting, where it really depends on the average duration of the sector on the network. And as we keep on growing and scaling the network, if we always have sectorary expiring and a very high frequency, it becomes a constant trend in network stability. We want to build a web scale blockchain system with this kind of a constant trend. It's really based on resources, and it's really tracking the network down from what she needs to build. And then with the exploration, that also comes to the initial pledge, there was a 3SD lockup. And that was hit by many different things. Like, I think just a year ago, there was a broader exit from China for many of our search providers. And then there's also the crypto winter and global market is going down. And then at the same time, you have all the world around the world, some possible world. And then people are raising interest rates and COVID is here all around some possible world. So there are many, many macro economic habits that are just hitting global economy and also the top of my economy. So when you combine these two, so you have much more luggage and you have a separate onboarding, because China is now reasonable and trying to grow up alike. At the same time, you don't have that much interest and capital to invest in public finance so I really put money behind public finance and I couldn't grow my business. So see what is this sort of on-boarding growth. At the same time, there's a constant wave of sector exploration releasing lots of tokens to the network. And this creates this sort of unfair economic condition on the top of my network level. And that's why we based on the analysis, it's a pretty big wave from now to maybe like here where I'm not sure who's next. Okay, I'm just wondering about an error. If you go back to look at the distribution of, and it would be great to have a graph here in the video. We're going to have that graph. If you look at the distribution, it's like we daily say in the height of the sector onboarding where I run the network on hyperdrive and so on and all the indications of the network was going to scale super fast and people would have more and more of the data and then the shift in policy came trying to have it sort of on the ground but in that way you can see the amount of sector onboarding offsetting of all iterations putting pocket in the same network as in the area with the AP budget and so on where the issuance and the and the spend and then a lot of these is balancing out. So that's it. It's a favorable economic condition for the whole network and the network wants to kind of be at that state and you can get it multiple ways. You can get it back to one or a 50 or 60 petabytes per day. That's pretty hard. You can also get to one or a five or six petabytes of useful data storage. When we started to say 0.3 or 0.4 to this day, we're now getting close to one to two. We're over two to this day now, but we're not sure what that's going to be to say a few months from now. And the third thing you can do is you can adjust the economic parameters to shift multiple times and so a shift in the likewise would become a year and a half to years from now my data pages now and that's kind of what this bit started earlier. So to summarize, there are some global macroeconomic headwinds and headwinds specific to crypto and within that, some headwinds specific to what is happening with the public economy that's creating this kind of backdrop that might be pretty important when we're sharing the bit. So now that we're on some shared context Tom, I think you'd be a great person to kind of talk about some of those specific details that is proposing to change in its final form that makes us now a bit of a mistake and a bit of ego in the public just for the most part. Yeah, sure. So I'm talking about macro and the wider motivation from one they sort of touch on a few of the key parameters like the other more specific that's helpful. So it's kind of key three things that are changing the first one is sector so currently this is going to be one month maximum a year and a half and this is going to change minimum sector duration up to one year and maximum up to three and a half years so at the minute this is going to be a distribution of sector distributions between six months and a year so we're going to try to shift that up and what that will do is we're going to start the stretches out and how to stabilize the amount of supply that's not this kind of important thing so that's one thing and another thing that we're going to look at that we're proposing I think is to change the target so once already explained a little bit what the target is so I mean the target has a few rooms it helps with security from the perspective of the whole value of the network security perspective of slashing but also it's kind of an economic role there the target it doesn't guarantee how much it's bought but it does target a specific value so it won't guarantee 50% of its value but it won't point things in that direction so that's what we proposed and when it arrives it will propose what we've done in the last couple of years by going through the simulations all the supply looking at tons of different scenarios trying to build a picture trying to understand what could possibly happen and through that trying to select a path that we think can work reasonably well for a good reason so that's the target and then the final thing that we've suggested changing is the interest for the sector traditional supplier and this is kind of to recognise that if supported buyers are going to school this is taking it's a much bigger commitment although it's more risk this can be or should be rewarded one and it acts as an incentive to do something that we think is good for never so for the sector traditional supplier we set the slope of one this is something that we looked into a lot of the researchers market a lot how should the sector duration look like should we come back to skonking what should the slope be this is something that we tried to figure out I've got a lot of feedback from the storage providers because initially we were thinking the storage would be much higher but then the storage of buyers were pretty loud we really don't need such a big incentive to encourage people to school for longer so we've taken that into account and set up the sector duration in order to school so I think those are the key three things that we changed that we wanted to do over we used a lot of time I think that's a great overview of anyone else's name to add but I think that alludes to another interesting part of this which is there's going to be a huge dialogue excuse me there's going to be a huge dialogue behind this right so you said like the slope has changed there has been sort of some kind of feedback from the stapler groups I think maybe Katelyn as someone who's kind of over not an author or someone who's seen the openness process could you talk a little bit about the community response that Katelyn alluded to what are some of the main questions and maybe concerns that they're raising and how have you seen that kind of dialogue with the community authors and other members of the community progress over the last two months I think that's a great idea that's a huge question and really important one so within my role the thing that I do every single day is figure out how we take an open and decentralized community and we make decisions so it's about who gets what when and how and how do we do this and answer these questions in a way that is old for us, for the network but also legitimate within our community and Filecoin is a very new protocol it's ensuring rapidly but the most excuse me, most of the time the fibs that we get are relatively too natural they can be really complex and really impressive pieces of technology but oftentimes what they oppose are these fundamental technical enhancements that are a value add to everyone it doesn't matter if you're a token holder a search provider, a data client an engineer these are things that we want they provide direct and immediate value and so the question we have is what is the most effective way possible bit 36 I like to say is a three-dimensional bit and it's one that we always knew we would eventually get to ZX and I actually met with some of our friends from BlockScience which is a Filecoin network partner in January this year to talk about just this problem but how do we design more robust systems to answer something that is fundamentally not just technical but existential nature and at that point we realized we don't know but we don't think it's coming yet and the reason is that Filecoin is still really, really young with bit 36 harder well this was released by the community in June this year I remember having a conversation with Vic at the very beginning of July where he said I actually think this is going to be great because we designed this to help source providers and it's going to be a really quick thing for us to put to the community talk about it for a few weeks and then we came to the next network upgrade which is really vast and what we've got, we're not only almost 600 individual proposals and comments and analyses we've got two separate open source and independently produced are a lot of top leadership storage providers we have CalS, AMAs, canals midnight meetings, urgent discussions community calls all of these different things that generated constant feedback and led to more than six different iterations of this fifth draft and this process that has broken our entire standard outworking procedure for fifths but from my perspective I want Lions in chaos but it's been really good chaos because it gives us the momentum and the opportunity to actually probe this process to know that we're getting to the place where community members are beginning to understand the value of participating in community governments and it gives us an excellent jumping off point for actually designing and iterating the next step for fifth processes so we not only never have this kind of complex and burdensome process in the future but that we know that when we go through these processes that everybody is able to absorb these proposed changes in ways that are efficient and productive but that community members too are able to equally participate in this process and give us the feedback that has really honestly driven so much of this process That's great. If more people less true words have been spoken on each July We can't be back then You have something I know that you have so much advice for everybody on how we can improve all of this and all of us can learn from this process together all of us are really good Metro at the end of our journey on how to improve all of our seats give me advice for us now as a community having to sewer in our entire process I think really key I really appreciate that question It's a really good one I think there are operation challenges for a long time again, fifths were pretty straightforward in the technical process We need people, we need resources, we need tooling, we need the kinds of things that we've always really liked and dreamed about but which there hadn't been very much demand for The demand is here We knew it was always going to come and again now we have that opportunity to really see it But I think the other thing to remember is that the Filecoin community very broadly is very unique especially compared to other types of our three communities Filecoin is a fantastic vision for the future the web or our economies for the ways that we work in this space but it is also very complicated it is a deep tech stack I have worked here for a year and a half or a master's thesis on Filecoin I still am learning new things every single day and the people who invest and participate in this community are incredibly knowledgeable so we say we got 551 github comments that was a bunch of day-on-day comments those are multi-paragraph analyses and responses from people who are very heavily involved in this network they have been for years many of them have been here since Mainnet Nationals two years ago and they are deeply knowledgeable about what they think the future of the network should be I think it is really important for us to remember that when we are thinking of proposals we are thinking of the way that they are going to change the network we begin to think of them less like these essays are writing these pieces are proposing and as actual products that we are stewarding that there is change management considerations to be made and for us to remember that there is untapped knowledge and expertise in more productive ways everyone has the exact same goal truly and it is important for us to remember that I think the conversation that we had was really productive from the start but I think that there is a way for us to derive and do a value for everyone from it so I think one more thing just in the specific set maybe to illustrate this the way that we try to navigate this process over time is what was the result of that discussion that was in the community dialogue 501 comments had to be resulted in something Tom, Graves maybe or ZX if you want to talk a little bit about how it fits it has changed from June to now that would be great and maybe I don't ask you to summarize 501 comments but let's see what the results are I mean I get sort of an offer that ZX can save over I mean if I just think the first thing that springs to mind is initially well I kind of mentioned this already but initially we had this slope on multi-parity 2 and we had the target on two-parity 0.4 and it quickly became apparent that I don't know a week or two we were getting pretty strong feedback from the sort of person and now this is much too strong so we kind of went back to our submission and we tried to see okay so how can we still be quite strong incentive and why are we making more constant feedback as well and we found that okay so if we can drop down the slope of the securituration multiplier but increase the target duration multiplier target mark on multi-parity 2 then this pretty much gets us to the same place so that was I think the first iteration that we did and then we had the next iteration is that we ended up reducing the length of the maximum iterations just instead of going for 5 years as initially intended to 3.5 years just to solve the things and make it a less of a big job perhaps in future another video got on and it increased to 5 years and a year's time but it's a feedback that we're getting from sort of providers is something more gradual and I'm totally aware of that I mean if it was up to me we'd like to see something that's really slow you know we change it a little bit and then you see what happens but there's no potential to respond in a sense that it's difficult to react on things frequently and also the story part of the different sense of something we have fixed so we can have some time so I think for this bit there's just like waves engagement I think one of the biggest people we have a really strong engagement about community and many groups that provide a very different feedback and then I think through this bit we also there's another two or three other that were created because this bit and then I think also because of this this bit our entire community has come together a lot more strongly I would say even though we may not fully agree like oh it's a strong engagement and then like I think for all this we're going to be able to see waves and waves of impact it has like one group of this that's going to be announced and that's going to fix it, alright this and alright as soon as there's something that's going to be announced it's going to end this oh by the way this isn't this too but overall I think that resulted in like I gave my all funds earlier nobody knows the future but all we can do is try to get there for our network I think this is one of the biggest takeaway here and of course as a community we can also learn how to engage in this kind of discussion in a more thoughtful and more affordable way I think that's all learning there but I think like I think it's a great and being here in Singapore I think we it's so great to be able to have so many of us in our community in person and I think like there's lots of like good exchange of ideas and all of this is going to be where like we we think this is good for the network but we are some unusual but we are leaning towards it but what we really want is that people understand what we are deciding on if you understand the trail of Dundee analysis that will make sure you acknowledge oh yeah there's this kind of possibility and then we can make our own we can make our own decisions and then coming together we can make a decision as a network so and so the takeaway is the trail of the art is there's not a lot that's happening on this bit when it comes to the engagement with the community is there a timing projector right now because there should be one so part of that engagement is resulted in the utilization of the football which I think we will be able to talk a little bit about at times a little bit about the engagement has been phenomenal there have been almost 2,000 votes cast in football on this bit and there is an interesting bucket of categories that we've created that we have in terms of showing the results just a quick thing is this poll is still open the poll closes September 28th tomorrow at 10pm UTC blackest for us that we eat September 29th very early in the morning but I think can you talk a little bit about we talk about governance in general more philosophically can you talk a little bit more about this in particular and why we ended up at this poll to help determine maybe this potential this is a really tough process and I think this is what the community didn't get to see as much as they did the external comments as Vic mentioned when he did his opening we often times use this process of soft consensus which again works really well for those 2 dimensional technical proposals that everyone wants to see it makes it easy for us to plan make sure everything is openly documented gather community feedback iterate and implement with this though when you have 551 comments since countless secondary and tertiary announced we need to gauge yes or no again a lot of this feedback is complex it makes a lot of proposals and changes and you really have to decide what we were going to do in order to make a decision to move forward because remember as Juan just said there was a time concomitus we have a network upgrade coming I think that this is something that given macroeconomic conditions not globally we need to do it now and so there were a lot of constraints that let us down to decide that that was fashion this was something that we were very divided on and that's because you know down some types of protocols usually don't but we felt that compared to other options including deferring to cordez to make a decision right this is a process that has been really community driven the six different iterations of the fit that came out that took a lot of compromise internally from opening our team but it's because being really honest and being able to respond to this community requests and genuine interest doesn't really drive the motivator for everyone who is working on this day and night so we decided the field was going to be the most legitimate and accessible way for us to continue to allow community members to err their sentiments and effectively say I accept or reject the sip you have one more day to do that and I'm not sure if you're going to look at all nine right first of all it's great to see the level of engagement that we have it's amazing to see the journal we got it's really great to see not any participants in a very broad way environments of online this is your network we're doing this together we're building this foundation for families together it's very important to engage with the process by submitting tips by discussing them by implementing them by working on them and sometimes we have to meet it by voting in terms of care but it's great to have an education it also what's really useful on the grade here to me is that even though I didn't know at many moments it felt super as if everyone thought X or can't vote or can't make it there's not many possible donations maybe they really care and couldn't vote for a private reasons maybe they're a participant maybe they're a public holder and they're saying there's an unable voting that's us you can't ask about our hey this is good, this is good for our group and for our community to say hey just go against add the disabilities we're writing you have an organization where people are very quiet and if you don't know what to vote for maybe you really care and you can't vote for or it was more likely you haven't engaged in on care or you haven't even heard there's probably a set of posts who haven't even heard about all of this so the the kind of a sentiment here is very useful to get us to do that for us at least with all kinds of improvements and again broader engagement from that's right, I completely agree and I'd like to point out that this is a poll that we have to stand up very very quickly in order to service all of the competing demands that are in place during this process it's not a perfect school a poll never is, they're deceptively complicated but again in the spirit of this being a really community-driven process we have a state support now it's not very well used but the next thing we're going to be kicking off is a huge pressure process to this fifth that includes anonymous and non-anonymous community feedback but additionally we're going to be moving up in a way that we engage community members with governance design as well and hopefully modeling and process methods of open governance as well so we can get easier for community members to weigh in on these processes as they're unfolding so if that's something that's interesting do find out about this because I'd love to talk with you more about it yeah, it sounds to me that engagement comes in many forms one of them may be voting but maybe more importantly is actual engagement and you can have discussion comments with presenting fifths, debating fifths talking about governance, all of these things are likely more impactful than just not signing an assay on glyph or via a lotus command line if you start a very very community and that's a way to engage so speaking of, I think this is a great opportunity to discuss with the audience maybe I think we're ready for any other questions we're just voicing thoughts about about changes in the PowerPoint network I've got a really good question about this yesterday the question was about when should changes be happening to the network with Web Frequency should probably be sent by others and be frozen or should there be more on the way to change this line like Ethereum or what sort of cadence and the thought here is think of the level of changes that need to come when we're working on this as being a function of the goal of the network what is the goal of the network working on services that it needs to provide and what are the dynamics around that service that might cause the service to change so for example a transactional processing system all its goal is to send money from one place to another like they want that changes can be very few that changes can sort of get frozen in time and have very few changes argue with you if you're probably to get it out of your work but the point is some networks can have a lot less change Ethereum has way more changes than they want they even went to the extremely difficult position of like migrating out into group safety without making the network better and that destroys the entire work business what group of work miner and Ethereum is going to vote for that it was a super contentious thing that took Ethereum 4-ish years to work through however they did it because it was critical for a whole network to be in one direction now the blockchain has to provide a very useful cloud storage service for the world it has to be a robust platform for storing data for making that data usable and valuable to the applications and users the mission is to provide a decentralized robust and efficient foundation for humanity's information there's a lot there in order to do that not only do we have to provide a bunch of services just to how those advances could change imagine you built a web in 1990 and you froze it and you said no more changes the web in 1990 is going to stick around if you want to build a URL you have to click file, go to the URL all over the box, press the and type whatever you want you can't paste and build one that's it, that's what you get and everything is changed obviously it doesn't work but one thing you basically have to figure out is what should change and what it is and how to do it there are important shifts and changes that will have to happen but it could be those two dimensional changes that can happen very quickly and everyone wants them there will also be hard changes that not everyone will want that also need to happen quickly that will be kind of like decision making muscles together to be able to do much more efficiently better for everyone and that is part of that we need to figure out how to save a lot of time to be able to make these adjustments faster as a whole community and then we also have to figure out some things that shouldn't be changing or should be changing to us or where we have to have better because we just won't be able to change because it matters for everybody that they become reliable over many years and the way the block reward is so important and it's a value for everybody and everyone is the block reward to be counted on this is an opportunity to ask questions however so if anyone has anything to or questions or concerns you know I'm sorry I was wondering despite having done a lot of research experiments on how to construct a market the main of those are actually also applicable for other applications as well so if they believe that we can not repurpose that knowledge but how to construct a market in critical context into other projects of organizing that or even turn that into a series etc the market always exists I think the question is what crypto brings to the table is it gets a set of verifiable auto-executing exhibition environment as long as certain conditions are met the contract is executed and then you can reduce a lot of coordination costs maybe like the discovery costs and then maybe like the dispute resolution costs through a lot of these crypto implementers so I think of course I think like the good thing I think one general rule for starting a market really is to find an initial attraction it doesn't really matter, you could just be like hand and paper even but hey you have an order or cool we want somewhere here we go but as we start building up that attraction then we can find more and more ways to leverage the crypto current to really automate and scale up the business I also go in reference to the deal on boarding rate and how important that is to maintain and it's hardly a bit of a set you won't see it in person, you won't see that it's clear from the side I don't see the deal for it it has to be the pre-wired about this about how at least again with isn't exactly a level bang for you and I struggle to see how the text from boarding rate achieving that whole story and it's interesting to hear about the effect that this shows can you have a little bit more and you'll see that going in the long term well so I think the biggest stressor right now I think the biggest stressor right now deals with the weird stuff is how this affects parties that are much smaller than much bigger and I think if you slice the data differently by sizes you would also see a very different amount too it just happens to me that the a large range of the yield providers are much smaller than say the more the CC providers that's the question for now sir if you could look at the data if you could end up that this is the other way so even a concern is more in the short term than it is no longer where participants are mostly worried about the discussion of if this change happens and I cannot take advantage of it immediately everybody else will and I will be left behind so that's kind of the biggest worry one problem that is figuring out hey actually other people taking advantage of it is the probability distribution that has many providers how many resources do they have available and so on so there's a complex distribution there you have to take into account not everyone's going to take advantage of it right away not everyone's going to take advantage of it the same levels and so on it is very true that this is harder for DLSE to DLSE it just introduces more work and therefore it is less than a pages to like it is much more than pages to CC for my concept to DLSE instead of going back on a larger picture there's this kind of misconception about CC that it doesn't provide a value to the note I've heard it many times many deal with providers we want to sort everyone's data and make it useful for everybody ideally the whole network would have a massive storage and everything would be full of data however CC sectors contribute massive amounts of value to the network itself think of proof of work in Bitcoin or proof of work in Ethereum and now proof of state in Ethereum that work is the same that utility that that process brings to those networks is the same utility that CC sectors provide to Bitcoin now of course we want deal data to be because it's much more valuable how much more valuable is it to us C3 tanks, 3 yard tanks as a whole community that's both values arguably could be smaller and arguably could be larger that parameter is like set up with manually theoretically it's really a function of many other things but that's kind of what we always are now to your question about hey how do we make sure that this now is how should deal with providers like providers that are storing deals and helping with the onboarding deal with this in this moment one of the things that lets us figure out what in the business can we help source providers that are using deals now how do we make the impact of this whatever negative impacts there are similar and easier on this one that could be like first of all loan programs and loan providers tend to bend out to much larger groups than smaller groups because that's one of the big issues we have to solve that, a number of us could be working on that to try and get loan providers to offer to smaller groups we haven't been successful yet in producing a program that's really accessible by ever maybe once at the MRI that will be easier to ride but we're not there yet this would be a great opportunity for folks to get involved in this and take place a very good business and support the source providers so a number of us are working on that is one of these another component of this is working to group the working to group the network to enable the coupling of deals and sectors so that you are able to make very long-term deals and the sector duration is different so for example today those are coupled they don't have to be coupled in longer you should be able in the future to make a deal for say 10 or 15 years and place that 10-15 year deal into a sector that is 6 months or 1 year 1 year or whatever that should be two steps however it's very difficult to get to that right now we could talk about that kind of possibility later on but that's one of the kind of improvements that can happen the broader picture and the right now, the macro question like we were saying earlier a lot of folks thought hey this is going to be great it's going to be really important hey actually the sector is not going to work and the point there is our thinking on this and the timing is that this is more valuable for everybody now and I think we need to find a way to we need to figure out a way to help all the deal search fighters to work with NMI to go over around support group other opportunities and so on is there anything else you want to create that you would enjoy more? that's been considered today I agree with what you guys have said about community engagement and how it might be in this space for us two years in the historical area just in the recent years at the DSC for those who have never seen so much engagement and I think it's great there's not only that people talking about the meeting you need to sort about there have been around the world that we've never actually heard from they're also looking into really exciting things that have come out like centre and station and I agree with that I mean for the millions of problems that we've seen that is really good and it's also great to hear there's going to be a way to try and some of that I'll answer you directly you're not on the engagement I want to know too that the people who understand the team that's affecting sort of providers the best are sort of providers and I had this conversation with the group of Koreans sort of providers who are here today we do not just want to be the ones proposing solutions and addressing problems we do not want all of our folks coming from political labs and work partners we want them coming from sort of providers we want them coming from community members and there are some sort of providers discussing are they worried if you know capacity sort of providers are able to go and extend their deals all the way out three and a half years or so in other sectors then it's going to actually be about going to a pleasant fight this is a concern they have it's going to be reasonable but I would love to see more engagement within our discussion forums with sort of providers proposing additional tips that we could host in order to model out potential additional changes to lessen that burden there's lots and lots of ways that we could look into this and I understand that sort of providers don't have the same amount of free time available to work on this they're probably very very busy the only thing we can do is understand the challenges that they can prevent you from participating what solutions to address the for you whether it be staffed, how do you write these texts whatever other resources you think comes to mind we would love to learn from you more about what it would take to get you engaged and actually think about the solutions as well one thing also as you consider all the different roles of your career what would yourself be in somebody else's shoes and look at the same question how do you think CC providers felt when some provider of 10x or value to use here you're going to have 10x more than 9 yeah because it wants to sort of really use old valuable data so we're going to reward it 10 times more not the same word but much more valuable than ever but yeah it's 10 times more so you think of all those different 10x it's a complex system one really valuable thing that could come out of this is you really need to kind of think of very much more detailed composable pages that could be kind of layer different needs of the concerns or less intertwined is that actually a really useful kind of design can I just add one more thing like at least it's not clear or debatable or maybe clear it in another way so we're going to do a CTSP so I think that's really useful this is a super useful network if there's an SP who wants to invest and resource into the network that's a game that most of these networks are playing and this doesn't change relative relationship between few plus and CC the few plus is still worth 10x more than CC and I think that would be a concern what if all the CC sectors just extend a lot to get a bigger share of power it also has to factor in that just because CC is a one party action or it's extension and fuel there's two parties there so it's definitely more complex but having said that because we just want to remind ourselves we are in this cooperative competition where we all come up with a network even though we're competing against each other which is good so that we all become more efficient but we're all part of the network if someone else invests a lot in the network we shouldn't stop them they are investing in our network making us all more successful and then we're all part of this community and lastly they won't necessarily get a bigger advantage because as they do that they will also lower their initial pledge where else can you put them on later I think we're a little lower but I do think this is a good session so if anybody else has further questions if anyone wants to get like they're going to kind of close this in on 536 this would be a great time to do it will we ever? they're closing in for now I'm going to go and press this 536 for Halloween markets with 536 I guess my closing statement will be just a reminder and a call to action to please vote I don't know what time zone we're even in right now but I think you have about 16 hours left until the vote closes if you need help doing this I will walk you through the process but I think it's really important that everyone has an opportunity to let their voice to hear very early open up a poll for 5th I'm going to express some appreciation for all of the participants that have to do this especially to you for just helping to store this entire process and helping us and dealing with all of the changes and adjustments from everybody all the time so thank you for bearing with all of this thank you to Purdue County for putting an enormous amount of effort into this if you have a lot of different things and you've put in how many hours into this hundreds of hours probably all together you have tons of other projects that are all really entertaining and valuable that you have to set aside in order to work with this to work with other ones I think for all of that cost that is a little bit of a difference it's costing us together thank you for putting your time there I thank you for all of the participants that made the conference what it is and for engaging with it and working with it if we every kind of system and service that provides value to humanity goes through lots of challenges goes through lots of changes and so on as a community we have to get really good at adapting to our environment and it's really good to see moments like this that help us so thank you