 Reject coups, the president's Mohammad Buhari tells world leaders, and insecurity rages as several persons are killed in two separate attacks in Kaduna state. This is Plus Politics and I am Mary Anacom. President Mohammad Buhari has told world leaders to reject coup d'etat, especially in West Africa. President Buhari decried the recent trend of unconstitutional takeover of power, saying it must not be tolerated by international community. He urged the international community not only to deal with the symptoms of conflict, but also to immediate, also the immediate causes that fuel the conflict in the first place. He said these and more in his speech at the 76th session of the United Nations General Assembly in New York. Buhari warned that democratic gains of the past decades in West Africa are now being eroded due to those negative trends. Joining us to discuss this is Political Analysts at Chike Turei, Richard Wakocha, he is an Associate Professor of Public Law at River State University and at Tagoba at Burje, who is also a legal practitioner. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. It's a pleasure. Thank you for having us. Yes. I'm going to start with you, Professor Wakocha. Let's start by considering the root causes of these coup d'etats. Now, let's not forget that in the past three months, if not in the past year, we've seen several attempted and successful coups. There was one in Mali. We've seen the one that just happened for Khande, and there have been several others. Let's look at the root causes because, yes, just as the President has said, we need to say no to these coups, but how do you avoid these coups from taking place if we do not address the core reasons or the causes? Somewhat difficult. Coups are potentially and essentially political activities, and they are more likely to happen where you have circumstances that can be pleaded as reasons why, quote, unquote, patriots are intervening. If you check a number of the countries in which this has happened, that is not to say that it's limited to such countries, you will find that what others think for granted in other parts of the world, their right to choose and change your government from time to time is one that is not really available in those places. In some of them, yes, you have the regular ritual of elections, but the same persons return themselves over and over again. And so if you have bad government, you have bad economy, and people cannot see any progress and it isn't to continue with the circumstances in which they find themselves, you create room for adventurers to see the advantage of that environment you have created to brand themselves patriots who are intervening in the interests of the people. Every suffering people will always rejoice with what appears to them, even if it is just on the surface to be a symbol of your hardship is taking away. There will always be some level of support for such activities. So I think bad governance and very poor democracy, because if people have the right to change their government, and they see their right being implemented by them, they will hold themselves responsible if they're not choosing the right people. But in the situations where we have where dictators change constitutions and give themselves opportunity to contest more and more times, as happened in a number of those countries, we can be sure you will have thousands of people in this place celebrating whenever these kind of activities happen. But it's not in our interests and somehow we must find a way to deal with it. Actually, there seems to be similarities in most of the coups that have happened lately. Again, I go back to the latest, which is the one that happened in Guinea. Now, you saw the number of people that flooded the streets right after the coup happened. It seemed like the people were on the side of the soldiers or rather the army, no matter how violent it seemed, even though it seemed like the people were very excited about it, maybe because their voices were not heard by the government, the civilian government, or maybe because they themselves were tired, but they keep talking about the fact that there was high-handedness in these governments. We tend to see that happen across the countries in Africa, but then we are the same people who have been asking for independence. We have gotten independence, but we become enslaved again by the leaders who swore to protect and serve us. Why is that? Well, I think you just talked about, mentioned that part of the reason, I think the professor has also talked about that. The reality is that there are certain expectations when it comes to the issue of governance, it comes to issues of democracy. Democracy is not exactly the magic one, but there are certain minimum expectations by people who have willingly gone out to express themselves through the electoral process by voting in leadership. They expect these political leaderships to carry out certain essential duties and responsibilities as enunciated by their own constitution, the welfare and the security of the people of the state, and in most cases they have not been able to achieve that. So the people begin to question even the basis of all of the elections and their participation within that process itself. And so when you now mix it up with some of the things that the Nigerian president talked about, the human rights abuses in a democratic dispensation and poverty that is supposed to be solved by the politicians, corruption and some other things, inequality and all of those divisions. And so all of these things provide a ground or basis for any group of military adventurers to come in and make claims about and also emphasize on the dire situation that they find themselves, the citizens find themselves in, which ultimately the citizens will definitely agree because that is what we have, the misgovernance that we've had across the continent of Africa, especially in West Africa. So the president has said not of some of these things, but even some of these issues that the president is talking about are also prevalent in his own country in Nigeria. We're talking about the human rights abuses, the inequality, poverty, and so on. Also things that characterize even the Nigerian state today as it is. So do not also forget that the reaction of people really is as a result of what they see as the failure of political leadership, like I have said, to provide a meaningful existence for themselves. We've saw it in Nigeria. There is no single coup that took place in this country that did not receive the approval of the citizens of Nigeria. Even though people will tell you that, you know, a military rule is an aberration to democracy. It's antithetical to democracy. But in the midst of the people with questions, the people would ask is what is alternative? The alternative is bad governance. The alternative are people who change at will at the constitutions of the express constitutions of their countries, giving themselves, you know, extending their time limit to remain in government and all that. So is this feeling of disillusionment really that has led to this intervention by the military? Of course, military intervention because they have no solution to the problems that they are trying to point out. Ultimately, they end up causing more confusion within their polity. But it is the misgovernance that the president talks about that is also leading to some of these issues. Back to you, Professor. The president has been asking that leaders reject coup d'etat and unconstitutional takeover of power by the army. But then let's look at the means that the people have to reach out to their leaders. Again, I take you back to Gini, which is something I've covered lately. In Gini, we saw a very bloody protest when the president decided to tamper with the constitution and elongate his tenor. Now, I'd also like to backtrack to remind you of who Alpha Konde was. He was one of the people who was in opposition to the government of the day. He spoke about a lot of things that he is or was doing when he was in power. And so I'm looking at it from the people's perspective. How do the people get justice? How do the people get a responsible government? If every means that they try, every means that should be available to them to get government to be accountable and get dividends of whatever it is, whatever they call a democracy in their domain is stifled or they cannot have access to it. Does this not, of course, open the doors to these soldiers, even though, again, there's a downside we all know to soldiers taking over power. But we tend to see that the people's hands are tied. So how do the people get their governments to be responsible or hear them when all those channels are being plumbed? So you see, I think that rejection should start with the citizens of the country's concerns that we're talking about. That rejection should, because governance is about the citizens. And so citizens should have the primary responsibility of looking after their country. Like somebody has said that the price we have to pay for democracy is eternal vigilance. So citizens must be eternally vigilant about their politics. They should make constant demands on their political leadership. So that is the first step. The second step, really, is maybe for the international community when the leadership, the political leadership has not lived up to the expectation. And then you have this in caution, this road in caution into the political life of the country by the military. Then the next stage is, first of all, the denunciation of that action by the citizens. But unfortunately, like you have said in this case, you have citizens welcoming something that is clearly an aberration. And then there is a road that the international community should play. And in fairness to the international community, unlike what we used to have in the past, when some of them were lucky to welcome people, the putists who have been involved in a coup. The response, usually, in especially seeing the spate of coups in West Africa in the past one year, the response by the international community has been very serious condemnation of the military, of the action by the militaries, by the military conscious. And of course, we have seen the diplomatic moves and maneuvers by international organizations, especially given support to the regional body, the ECOWAS, to do whatever it is that should be done, that can be done to ensure that the coups do not continue to remain in power. So they have done that. They have always done that. But beyond that, you see, there is one fundamental fact that our president is forgetting. Nigeria most lead by example. Nigeria is the most populous country in Africa. Nigeria has the biggest economy in Africa. And there is so much expectation on the shoulders of Nigeria. Unfortunately, Nigeria has not been able to live up to expectation. Why am I saying so? Nigeria has intervened meaningfully in a coup that has been undertaken by the militaries of some of these other countries, even within Africa. We have had an intervention in the Central African Republic, one of the countries in Central African Republic that saw to the immediate reversal of a coup that took place because of the most pressure that Nigeria brought to bear on that country. Then in West Africa, we remember what we did with regards to Sierra Leone, went for the Sanko, and some of these rebel groups took over the government of Sierra Leone. Nigeria went into Sierra Leone and reversed it with the aid of other West African countries. So the reason why some of this is happening within the West African sub-region in a neighboring country is simply because of the weakness of the Nigerian state. Otherwise, if you had a country in Nigeria that is strong and viral, as we had about 35, 30 years ago, the fact that Nigeria has become a democracy, even though it's not exactly working, but the fact that we're in a democracy will not embolden any of the military, none of these other surrounding West African countries, to have done what they have done. And that is the legitimate takeover of the government, of their governments. And so it is Nigeria's weakness in a way that has also encoded some of the support. And if you look at the resolutions that the Aqours ends up undertaking with some of these people, the military actors that were involved in this illegitimate overthrow of legitimate governments, you realize that it would appear that they are being rewarded, that is the coupists, are being rewarded for the acts of supporting the constitution of their countries. What do I mean by that? The transitional arrangement that is usually put in place between, I mean, by Aqours also involves members of the military, you know, of the coupists that took place, that took part in that coup. So it is a form of rewarding people who have embarked on an illegitimate action by making them involved in the process of seeking, you know, a transitional government. So that is what encourages most of these coupists. Ultimately, at the end of the day, they're going to say, well, the last, I mean, the list that will happen is that Aqours is going to get involved in the international community and we're going to be involved in being part of the government that is going to, you know, emerge as a result of the transitional program that will put in place. So these are part of the problems that we're having. Let's move away from that and talk about some of the things, other things that the President raised. He talked about the, he sought for debt cancellation outrightly for countries that were facing severe challenges, saying that Nigeria, most importantly, will not continue to seek aid. He also spoke of equitable COVID distribution. Let's start with the, the aid part of it and the debt cancellation. The last time we had our debt canceled, we still had Ngoziakonjewala as our Minister of Finance, Finance Minister and the Minister for the Economy. And several years down the line, here we are again asking for debt cancellations. But I want to start by asking, of course, you're a citizen of this country and you know, obviously the ins and outs of governments and all that they've said they're doing. How well do you think that we as an Nigerian state, whether it be the Bahá'í administration or past administrations, how well have we done when it comes to the monies that we borrow and say we want to use for infrastructure development or whatever? How well have we done with those monies? And the areas in which we pump these monies into, are there plough-back profits? Could they be the reason why we're unable to pay back at yet? So are we going to blame everything on COVID-19? Well, you know, the reality is that the world is not going to save Africa. If Africa doesn't save itself, you know, that is a general agreement that Africa has to save itself. And one thing that is also clear is that, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars have been borrowed over the past 50 years in Africa. And we have not seen anything significant in terms of changing the political and economic landscape of Africa. So aid has not been very useful to Africa. Of course, there are so many issues. I mean, so many reasons are responsible for that. I'm sorry, I'm so sorry to speak over you, but when you say aid has not been very useful to us, are you saying we don't need it or we need it, but we're not managing it properly? Which one is it? Yeah, I think it's a bit of both. We don't, for a continent that is that is that is mightily blessed, do not forget that most of the major minerals in this world around which the economies of the globe revolve are found in Africa. And that's why you have this scramble, this competition between Europeans, the Americans and the Chinese for Africa's very rich resources. So, you know, and that means that if we get our rights, if we get our politics right, we will be able to harness these resources for the purpose of developing the African continent. And so we do not really, under normal circumstances, have any serious business or money when the essence of when we have everything that is needed to run the African continent, you know, properly, if only we have people who can manage the resources. And so when we now find ourselves, even in the situation where we now have to borrow money, what do we do with the money? So I think that also comes to what you have just said, the issue of the product management of these resources and the reality is that most of these monies are stolen and free time they were mismanaged completely outright. And so that's why we have not been able to see anything, you know, meaningful about that. We talked about the, you know, what Obasanjo did at the using these clouds and that of Konjo Waila with the international financial, you know, multilateral financial organizations to write off Nigeria's debt. We had a debt profile of around 30, 32 billion dollars then. And then we were asked to pay, you know, a whopping one tranche of 12 billion dollars, which we had, and then pay that and then we are forgiving 18 billion dollars. How many years down the line? You know, about maybe 15, 16 years down the line, Nigeria is pouring a whopping 36 billion dollars. And they already, there's a representation that has been made by this present government to the National Assembly for an additional 4.5 billion dollars. So that we shoot our debt profile to I think around 41 billion dollars. So what it means, you know, is that from 2015 to now, 2015, we had a debt profile of around 11, 12 billion dollars. We have borrowed to about 200 percent of that, you know, at this particular point in time and we're still borrowing money. So what have we been able to do with the monies that we have borrowed all these years? There's nothing to show for it. Nigeria remains the poverty capital of, you know, of the world. There's gross inequality, you know, and the economic dislocation for a lot of Nigerians and all that. So when the president is asking the international community, you know, for their forgiveness, he said, Joe, because they know what is going on in this country. They know the quantum of money that has been given, you know, to Nigeria and they have an idea how much these monies have frittered, have been frittered by the political elite. But this government is the government that I mean, I do not know if, you know, but the truth is this government had come in to plug those loopholes according to their campaign. They're here to fight corruption and make sure that monies that are located for different things go to those areas. So are you saying that this government has also, one way or the other, sold its hands in terms of monies that should be allotted to projects and implementations? This is not me saying it. This is Transparency International saying it. Nigeria's position in terms of transparency today is worse than it was in 2015. So what does that mean? That we have not been having prudent, you know, management of our resources. And so then the stories of a corruption that has gone on habitably in the country, you know, all this while. And so it's not me, it is the facts that are on ground and there is really nothing to show for it. The educational system has not been revamped. The present government told us we are going to do something about education. They told us we are going to do something about infrastructure, the infrastructure. They told us we are going to do something about so many other things in the country. And all of these things have not been done. So telling us that we are going to plug loopholes and so on. I mean, it's not in the same, but it's in the doing. And when it comes to delivering on the promises that they have made to the Nigerian people, we can't really say that they have done much in that direction. Corruption has continued, like I just made a reference to the latest, I mean, last transparency report of Transparency International about the level of corruption in the country. And so we have not really done so much. And so you find a president that is appealing to the international community, a president that has not been able to extend the tide of corruption, also telling the international community to forgive us, just as they have forgiven us before. And under him, much more money has been borrowed than in any administration, than any other administration or all other administrations put together in this country. So you don't want to give that kind of administration that forgiveness. They must have something on ground to fall back on, to know that even if we do this, that these monies are going to be properly managed, and so far from what they are seeing, there's nothing to show at that. Well, finally, let's talk about the COVID aspect of Mr. President's speech. He talked about, he thanks the international community and the initiatives, the financial institutions for significantly mitigating the situation of indebted countries. But then he spoke about the equitable distribution of COVID-19 vaccinations, which is a very big issue. It's a front burner issue, as we speak right now. And let's not forget the fact that the United Kingdom has come up with a particular protocol where they have somewhat said that those who have been vaccinated in Africa, they do not necessarily consider that vaccination a standard of sorts. And then we have anti-vaxxers. Oh, Professor, you're back with us. Okay, so let me throw that question to you. Let's talk about the politicization of vaccination, especially in Africa. There is one school of thoughts where there are people who are saying, well, Africa has so much potential. Why aren't we all, we have so many researchers, some of them working within and without Africa, why are we unable to create our own vaccines that are also of the same standard with the ones that we are getting from the UK, from the US. And then there are also the people who are anti-vaxxers, on the other hand, who have come up with all kinds of conspiracy theories and reasons to why they would not take this COVID vaccination. Now with what the UK government has said, it calls to question the vaccinations that we're getting from them. Are they giving us low standard vaccinations if they're saying those vaccinations don't qualify us to come into their country without having to quarantine for at least seven to 10 days? I think they are trying to place safe. As you have said, there are a lot of conspiracy theories about the COVID-19 vaccine. And our own decision is one that has, I think, has attained international recognition. And so if a country is uneasy about travelers from our region coming into their countries after vaccination, it will possibly be a hesitation arising from the fact that they are not certain that we are doing the right thing. As for the quality of the vaccine that we are getting, remember that we are open to all manner of vaccines and we are receiving more than just, more than the vaccine from one particular country. And so I wouldn't think it's the function of what they are giving us being low. There are a number of them that are available, a number of them that are in use in this country. So if they have doubts about the one they are giving us, I don't think the same that can be extended to the one we are receiving from other countries, which people in their country are also receiving and are being counted as having been fully vaccinated. Well, again, a lot of African countries seem to be still at the mercy of these other European countries and the Americas as to who gets the vaccination. And there seems to be some politicking to it. What do you think is our challenge here in Africa? And why can't we produce our own vaccines? First on who gets what and why we don't seem to be getting enough. You are not an equal stakeholder here. So you're not bargaining at the same level. And definitely you get only after the nations that have the strength to bargain have done so and gotten what they want. So there is no question that we cannot contend at that level and get exactly the same treatment and the same quantity as stakeholders or those that are equal stakeholders with the producers are getting. Now on why we don't seem to be producing our own vaccines are scientific productions. Science requires commitment, a lot of funding and a lot of commitment. If you look at our attitude, our political environment do not seem to support such commitment and such seriousness. That's not to say we do not have the minds and we do not have the brains. But do they have the environment? Do they have the facilities with which to do what they need to do? When they leave these shows, they become inventors and they become great minds outside. But within, I'm afraid they do not have the environment and they do not have the support that they need, as well as the funding that is required to get those breakthrough productions like vaccines and the rest of them. So it's not here nor there. We have no strong commitment as a nation or as a region. We have no strong commitment to funding and supporting inventiveness and scientific discoveries. So we shouldn't expect to discover the world as we are doing or to come by those vaccines we are doing. We don't expect to get your ship in if you have not sent one out. We haven't made the investment that produces vaccines. It makes me really think that we might just be beggin for a long time until we get our axe right. But I want to say thank you to Professor Richard Walker-Chahis and Associate Professor of Public Law, River State University and Chike Chude, who is a Politics Analyst. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for being part of the conversation. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you for staying with us. We'll take a short break now. And when we return, we discuss the insecurity in some parts of the country as several classes have been killed in a taxi to Duna State with the vaccine.