 Hello everyone and welcome to another crisis conversation live from the Better Life Lab. I'm your host Brigitte Schulte, Director of the Better Life Lab, the Work Family Justice Program at New America, a nonpartisan think tank dedicated to renewing the promise of America. That's what we're going to be talking about today. So today, as we explore how the pandemic and the protests for racial justice are exposing the deep cracks in our system when it comes to work and care and what needs to change to create a better, fairer and more equitable America, we're focusing on black women and women of color and why the next bailout from Congress needs to center not on big business, but on them, and we'll explore big bold vision and what we need to create real equity and lasting change. I'm so excited to welcome our guests today and create space for this conversation. So joining us today, we've got Jocelyn Fry. She's a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress where her work focuses on a wide range of women's issues, including work-family balance, pay equity and women's leadership. And she is also co-author with our next guest of the article that inspired this episode. We also have Dominique Dervigne. She's the Deputy Director of Closing the Women's Wealth Gap Initiative. And she's also the co-author of Left Out, Why We Must Center Women of Color in the Next COVID-19 Relief Package. We also have Jamie Gloshe. She's the co-founder of Native Women Lead. And Dr. Michelle Holder, who wasn't able to join us live, but we had an earlier recording with her. She's an Assistant Professor of Economics at John Jay College, City University of New York, who focuses on Black Americans and women in the American labor market. We also have Latrice Wilson. She's a furloughed payroll supervisor from Louisville, Kentucky, and she's an advocate for unemployed action, which advocates for relief and good jobs for all. So welcome to you all. As I mentioned, Dr. Holder could not be live with us. So our program assistant, Jeziah St. Julian recorded a conversation with her. And I'd like to open with some of what Dr. Holder's research has found. Could we play that clip, please? Most women don't know, really, when or if they're facing differential pay based on their gender and or their race. The only way you can really find that out is if you know what your coworkers are making. So it's a problem that Black women know affects us, but we can't put our finger on it because we don't have the information. And it results in the aggregate to a huge loss to the Black community every year, which I estimated at about $50 billion each year. It's a pretty, I think a pretty solid number. And in fact, I think it's an underestimate. Prior to the pandemic, Black women's position in the workforce was stable in the sense that Black women are more attached to the workforce than white women. It's historically been higher than white women's. So because as a group, we're more entrenched in the American labor force than white women, of course, we're going to be more vulnerable when a downturn happens. Prior to the pandemic, it may have seemed superficially that things were good with respect to low unemployment in the Black community and among Black women. Underneath the surface, there were issues that then disabled us to weather the storm of this pandemic. So Jocelyn, I'd like to turn to you next. You and Dominique wrote the piece that inspired this podcast episode. Why does the next bailout, why does it need to focus on women of color? And can you tell us about some of those issues that Dr. Holder mentioned that are making it difficult for Black women and women of color to weather this storm during the pandemic? Well, thank you. Thank you, Bridget, for the conversation. And thank you for bringing us together for an important discussion. You know, I think Dr. Holder really hit the nail on the head. When I talk about Black women in the context of the pandemic and really women of color more broadly, what I often say to people is that they're on the front lines of this pandemic, but they're also on the front lines for their families. And they are on the front lines in multiple ways. On the one hand, they're on the front lines because they're disproportionately essential workers. And when you look at some of the jobs that have been vital just to keep the economy going, even in the midst of a crisis, that Black women and women of color disproportionately in fields like healthcare, their emergency workers, their nursing assistants, but they're also the folks who are grocery store workers. They're the people who really essentially provide for the care and feeding of our nation. But we also have a long history of devaluing that type of work. And it is work that is historically been done by women of color, but they are low wage jobs. People are often dismissive and, you know, in many ways find them, you know, invisible. We expect them to be there, but we don't pay a lot of attention to their needs. And we don't pay a lot of attention when they are being treated unfairly. On the other hand, they're also bearing the brunt of the tremendous job loss that's happening. If you look at the unemployment numbers, they are certainly higher for Black women and Latinas, Asian American women. Those unemployment rates are higher by, you know, a couple of percentage points, even with the jobs that have been regained. So that is happening with the pandemic. And at the same time, what we know is that Black women and women of color more broadly are much more likely to be the economic engines for their families. Black women, two thirds of Black mothers are either the soul or primary breadwinners for their families. And as Dr. Holden mentioned, at the same time, women of color experience enormous pay disparities, even compared to their white female counterparts and also in comparison to white men. While they are bearing this economic burden, they are also being treated unfairly in terms of how they get paid. And they, in the addition to the fact that they are disproportionately in low wage work that lack benefits like paid leave, paid sick days, the very things that people need right now. So all of those things are happening, it's almost like a perfect storm. They're happening at the same time during the middle of this pandemic. And if we're really going to be responsive to the moment, then we ought to be centering in the conversation, the very women who are experiencing all these challenges, as opposed to sort of looking sort of more broadly and ignoring these issues altogether. That's why, you know, I think both Dominique and I decided that doing a focused report on this topic was so essential because we were missing a big piece of the conversation. Absolutely. And I want to get to those solutions in a minute, but Dominique, let me turn to you at this, at this point. You know, when we spoke to Dr. Holder, one of the things she said is that there's enough prosperity in this country to go around. And so it's counterintuitive that the wealthiest 20% have half of the income. And she also talked about what she called the double wage gap for gender and race. So you've done so much work on, on these double wage gaps. Can you talk about some of your research and, you know, tell us the research that really lays the groundwork for this argument and that the next bailout should focus on women of color. Yes. And thank you, Bridget, for including me in this discussion today and, and Jocelyn for providing some of the initial context from, you know, our, our op-ed that we did together. Just like Jocelyn said, women of color have a legacy of being dismissed and dehumanized and disenfranchised in this country. And this pandemic has really exposed the economic fragility facing women of color, but it didn't create it initially, right? It's exacerbating it, but it didn't create it. And so really undergirding all of this is sort of a massive chasm and wealth in this country. Michelle talked about sort of the gender pay gap, you know, and there's really a, an intersecting racial and gender wealth gap in which, you know, the typical white household has 10 times the wealth of black households in this country. Women of color are most impacted because they live at this intersection, you know, median wealth for single Latinx and black women is $100 and $200 respectively compared to almost $15,000 for single white women and $30,000 for single white men. This equates to less than a penny on the dollar in terms of ownership for women of color. And so, you know, when we're talking about wealth, we're talking about savings for emergencies or the future, you know, equity in a home or a business, resources for retirement, funds that could be passed down to the future generation. And this is really important because income helps people pay bills and get by, but wealth is really what helps families to get ahead and what helps them to weather economic hardships such as this recession that we're currently in. So at one in $200 of median wealth, there are really very few resources for women of color to draw on, you know, if they face a job loss due to this pandemic. And as Jocelyn mentioned, you know, they are facing higher levels of layoffs at this time. And this isn't because of, you know, individual choices and behaviors is not what created these gaps. It's due to racist and sexist policies and practices, you know, that have been reinforced over time, really beginning with the founding of this country, you know, the American land and the slavery, you know, of African people. But then after slavery ended came the black codes and Jim Crow and red lining and, you know, all of these legally enforceable policies that thwarted economic advancement for black people after the GI bill, you know, federal investments were provided to help returning veterans to get a college education and to get a low interest federally backed mortgage and black veterans were almost completely left out of those benefits. And for women of color, then they faced the compounding effects of also sexist policies and practices, right? The denial of access to mortgage and business loans. Right. Single woman couldn't get credit without a man's signature until 1974 or access business capital without a man's signature until 1988. And they continue to face, you know, discriminatory practices and lending housing market practices with regards to red and black women. And so, you know, you know, they, you know, they suffered disproportionately in the great recession due to being steered into subprime mortgages and then suffered major losses of wealth that they have yet to recover. Right. And of course the pay gap is part of this, right? The unequal pay that Michelle mentioned, where women across all industries are paid less than men for doing the same work is another significant, you know, impact to this divide. And so, you know, women lose between $800,000 and $1 million over a 40 year career due to the gender pay gap. Wow. These policies and practices have exacerbated this racial and gender wealth gap and consistently push women of color to the margins, making it more difficult for them in times like these. Yeah. So let me turn to you, Jamie, at this point, you know, Dominique mentioned Native American women and what they're called Native American women bread makers and breadwinners that they're really the backbones of their communities. Yet the deck was stacked, stacked against them too. And similarly before the pandemic and they, they too are also suffering disproportionately in it. So tell us about what you're seeing and, and then we'll move on to solutions. Thanks so much. Yeah, we're seeing high COVID rates. Just to what everybody pointed out earlier and echoing the same. This is totally exasperated the inequities that have existed long before. Same with Native American women. Two thirds of us are the breadwinners and the bread makers were the economic stabilizers. A lot of us work in the creative economy. So our businesses may not legally be structured and not no access to the unemployment benefits or the PPP that's available. And then just being the economic drivers and the matrix of our communities and the problem solvers. So, being unable to access basic necessities like internet access, food, because in New Mexico we have a lot of food deserts and this is being shown clearly in Navajo where people have to travel 200 miles roundtrip just to get access to a grocery store, but then there's lockdowns access to no water. So there's, so people don't have water to actually do hand washing. But it's really just exasperated the, the issues that have already been rampant in communities and tribal communities with respect to pay equity, wage equity, with respect to poverty homelessness, for example, in Albuquerque, 44% of the homeless population in Albuquerque are indigenous people. So it's, it's just like we're, we're dealing with, with it at multiple levels. And here in New Mexico, while native people represent 10% of the population at one point, we accounted for nearly 60% of the COVID cases. So it's been completely detrimental to our communities with no economic security or safety net. And one thing that really struck me when we spoke a couple days ago, you were talking that you work with a lot of Native American women who are entrepreneurs, like you said, like you mentioned in the creative community. And that for many people, you know, now with the pandemic, it's all about telework and remote work and moving your business online. And yet because of some of these real, the lack of access to basic services like wifi, like internet, like broadband, that many of these women entrepreneurs are not able to do that. Can you, can you talk a little bit about what they're experiencing? And how do you keep a business going then, you know? Well, well, you, well, you can't, because a lot of the creative economy depends on that in person cells and transactions being at these communal events. And we're, you know, definitely very community oriented people. So we did a survey and it, it showed that 80 to 100% of women owned businesses and in our community and our network said that COVID would completely disrupt their operations and, and their livelihoods. So a lot of these women, because they're the academic drivers, they're the red makers, red winners. They have no income at all right now until we're lie upon and then no way to access PPP. Cause at, you know, one thing is that we face is invisibility. So people don't want to know it. Native people still exist and are still around cause we're less than 2% of the population. So there's a lot of advocacy and amplification that's, that's necessary and technical assistance to access those funds. Right. So, you know, let's turn our conversation to solutions now both in the short term as well as the big bold vision for what we really need for a more equitable future. You know, as you all have been saying, and the infection rates continue to rise unemployment layoffs, you know, that one time $1,200 payment that Congress authorized has been, is long gone. And, but a lot of people may not realize is that the additional $600 a week bonus to help struggling families who would have been furloughed or unemployed, that's set to expire July 31st. That's just a few weeks away. You know, there's been no action really in Congress. There's a lot of talk, but you know, nothing definitive at this point. There's talk about another bailout, which is why I want to have this conversation now. What needs to be in that package and on the agenda. But first, let me bring in Latrice Wilson. So Latrice was the payroll supervisor based in Louisiana, Louisville, Kentucky for a large healthcare company. And she was furloughed in May. Latrice, some Republicans in Congress don't want to extend that $600 bonus and unemployment benefits because they say it's a disincentive. They say it's keeping people from going back to work as if life is like too luxurious with an additional $600 a week. You know, your own Senator Mitch McConnell called the bonus a mistake. So you tell us what life is like, you know, for you and furlough and, you know, with the unemployment benefits that you're, you know, that you're forced to survive on while you wait for your job to call you back, you know, and what do you think Congress needs to do in this next package? Well, the $600 is essential to my everyday life. I have a daughter that's about to go back to college. Having the $552 a week, which is the state unemployment, does not pay my bills. And it will not keep me afloat. After taxes is $1,900. So the $600 is essential. And to hear from Congress stating that, oh, it would keep people from going back to work. Well, I don't have a choice but to wait because I am going to have to wait for a load unless I choose to go find another job and lose my healthcare benefits. And that I need medication for my autoimmune disorder. So I have a choice, but I don't have a choice. So like a lot of people, especially that I hear from, it's essential because they don't have an opportunity to go look for the job. If the $600 go away on July 31st, as soon as August 1st, everybody's trying to find the same position, there's no guarantee. And if I did get another position and how COVID-19 is going right now, who's to say that I won't be in that job for, you know, for a little while. Or at least 10 weeks to even try to go apply for unemployment again if I am laid off or furloughed. So it's imperative that the Congress pass or extend the $600. You know, I said the stimulus package, a lot of them are speaking about the $1,200. The one time $1,200. Well, that does help when I appreciate that, but that doesn't sustain us. And it does not stimulate the economy. Right. So in order for us to survive and not let it trickle down to other people, like our landlords, you know, the banks, the people going to mortgage for closure, people have food banks. I mean, it's going to affect everybody, not just the people there's currently either laid off or furloughed. You know, when we were talking the other day, Latrice, you were talking about your autoimmune disorder and you'd mentioned healthcare. And that's one of the reasons that you don't go look for another job. So can you explain that a little bit more? Are you still getting health insurance through your employer? And so that if you went to look for another job, you'd lose that health insurance. Is that right? You are correct, Bridget. I currently, I am furloughed and my job did offer me to continue to pay my employee contribution to 1227 twice a month. Now, before when I'm working, it's pre-taxed. Now it's post-taxed and it's hard to even to get no budget for all of this. So if I do, they do decide not to extend the $600, I won't be able to pay for healthcare insurance and may be able to continue to get my medication because there's still, I mean, I'm still waiting to see if I'm eligible for Medicaid. I'm probably not, but yeah, it's imperative. So the amount that you're paying just for your portion now of your health insurance, that's about 20% of that additional $600 a week payment. So if that goes away, how are you going to be able to to keep up with your health insurance? I have, I mean, I've been proactive and always been a saver and always having emergency funds. And I can pinch from there because I have to have my medication and be able to maintain my health. But that's not going to last long, you know, beyond a few months. So it's imperative that something is done, action is taken, and continue to knock on Mr. Mitch McConnell's door by via email and phone calls as I have. And we're having a town hall next week. So hopefully they'll show up and hear our voices. All right. Well, thank you so much. Well, just let me turn back to you, you know, so when we spoke with Dr. Holder, she had mentioned a couple of things that need to happen kind of immediately at the next bailout package, you know, and some of them we've talked about extending this unemployment insurance and the $600 a week. I hate to call it a bonus. It's mainly because unemployment insurance has been so underfunded for so long that you need to sort of top it up to make it, make it livable. She talked about the potential of direct cash payments or the expanded snap, you know, for food. You know, talk a little bit about what needs to go into this package. Well, you know, I'll pick up on the very important points that she raised. I mean, I think what's essential here is to, you know, get out of the Washington mindset and actually get into the mindset of real people and real workers. And, you know, I was so struck by what Latrice said because, you know, the history of black women is that black women have always worked, you know, going back to slavery. We were always working and I've always had the highest labor force participation rates. And so now fast forward to today, the notion that people still have these perceptions of somehow black women women of color workers generally don't want to go to work. It reveals a lot about sort of what actually drives a lot of our policies, which are less grounded in reality and more grounded in stereotypes and misperceptions about the folks that you're talking about. So I do think we have to look at what are people's practical experiences, what's going on with them. We know that a lot of women are dealing with just the reality that they're home. They have kids at home and they may or may not have access to paid leave, paid sick days. So there are things like that that are immediate needs that Congress did some provision for in the COVID relief packages, but not enough. They're an estimated up to 100 million workers who may not be covered by the paid leave protections that are in the COVID relief laws. So that's essential. We need an enormous infusion of money for childcare. The childcare system has been devastating. And we need to actually just rebuild that entirely and pay childcare workers a fair wage. We need to be focused on essential workers. Again, these are just proportionately women on the front lines, women of color on the front lines, black women on the front lines, and not only being able to access protective gear, but also having access to what people would call premium pay because they're working in hazardous situations. Extra money for emergency childcare. So many facilities are closed, but they need to go to work. So they have to be able to leave their children somewhere. Those are immediate things that need to happen now. In addition to the extension of UI and SNAP benefits and other sort of things just to make, make ends meet. But it's also important for us to recognize and a couple of people have mentioned this that we didn't get here solely because of the pandemic. You know, the problems that we're talking about existed long before if any of us had ever heard of coronavirus. And so when we look forward to policy change, we need to be thinking about what were the inequities going back to the old normal is not, is a non-starter. We need to be thinking about what are the policies we need to actually set women of color up for the future. And those are things around raising their wages, raising minimum wage, equal pay protection so that they're actually just being paid fairly for the work that they do. It is, it is childcare reform. It is a sort of permanent pay leave, not just pay be tied to a pandemic. Those sorts of, those sorts of investments are critical, along with just additional funding for stepped up anti-discrimination enforcement. Women of color face discrimination in the workplace and stereotypes about their work ethic. And we need an investment in the enforcement necessarily to make sure that they're actually going to be treated fairly when they do go back to work. At this point, I wanted to bring Dr. Holder back in. We're going to play one more clip and then I'm going to go, go to you, Dominique, to talk about big, big bold vision. So let's play Dr. Holder's clip at this point. So I grew up in New York City and I was raised by a single mother who was an immigrant. She was an immigrant from Panama. My father is from the South. So he's African American. She emigrated to New York City. He migrated to New York City for a better opportunity. Their relationship didn't work out. And so what happened was my mom became a single mother with three children, not college educated and not receiving a lot of assistance from my father. And so I basically watched her struggle in a country with so much wealth. And I was really trying to understand why public policies seem to be failing my family, especially a woman who wanted to work, who did work, but because she didn't have a college degree, she didn't make very much. And because she had three children, she also had caregiving duties. So sometimes she lost the job because she had to take care of a sick child. So my interest in the positions of groups less favored in the labor force, like African Americans, like women, like Latinx, really stems back to watching my mother and the community that I was raised in, which is the same community, by the way, that Jay-Z comes from and Tim comes from. Bedford Stuyvesant Brooklyn was where I grew up. And so I watched a neighborhood full of women, children really struggling to survive in a country that had a lot of wealth to go around. And so this is what drove me, I think, to the discipline of economics in particular, but really looking at groups that are less favored in the American workforce. So Dominique, Dr. Holder talks about public policy failing families like hers. So what do we need to do? Big picture, you know, not just in the immediate crisis, but longterm to ensure that public policy does not continue to fail so many families of color. I think there were so many really important points raised by Michelle and Jocelyn and Latrice and Jamie. And just thinking about the fact that we really need an economy that centers the dignity of all people. You know, what we're really talking about is people can't just meet their basic needs. People can't live, you know, have a good quality of life. And these things weren't created by accident, you know, to Jocelyn's point, this didn't happen overnight. And it certainly wasn't by accident either. These were intentional policy choices and federal investments that created these inequities and created this massive chasm and, you know, and wealth in this country. And so it's going to take intentional policies and federal investments in order to undo that, right? In order to create an economy that better works for all people and that centers women of color. And so we really do have to be thinking about what are things that we need to do now, policies that we need to enact now, if we want to see some of these long-term changes to have a more equitable economy. So we can be talking about things like reparations, right? I think there's always been a legitimate argument for reparations. And that is a conversation that we need to be having now. I've seen more people talking about, you know, baby bonds, providing trust accounts for all children born in the United States that are seated with funding and allowed to grow until they reach adulthood. And there have been studies that show how baby bonds can dramatically reduce racial wealth inequality. You know, we need to, as Jocelyn said, raise the minimum wage, right? We need to pay people living wages or provide a guaranteed income or federal jobs guarantee, right? We need to have some of these universal systems in place to pay family and medical leave and childcare and healthcare, right, to Latrice's point about the absurdity and the expenses, right, with regards to healthcare. We need a system in which people can afford healthcare and everyone has access to it. And these things are all, you know, these are all doable and it's just a matter of political will. But we really do need to create and build an economy that centers dignity and humanity for all people and allows us all to live a good life. So, Jamie, I'm going to go to you for the final thought. But first, let me go to Latrice. You know, what are your thoughts now as you think about big bold vision from your perspective? What would you like to see? I would love to see equal pay, not just for women, but for black women. I have two strikes against me when it comes to equal pay. A lot of times when we apply for positions, we're just happy just to have a job and not a career. We're not having that boldness to negotiate your salary because we all should be paid women as well as black women. They're right, you know, to pay the same amount of pay, excuse me, when they're doing the exact same job. I feel that we should all have healthcare and shouldn't be so much of the employee paying the larger portion for healthcare benefits as well as a co-payment, as well as deductible on top of paying for other things like childcare, education for their children, going to college, things of that nature. We should expand to make sure that our children have outside resources, not only here, you know, within our homes to be able to deposit outside resources so they can go to or refer to so they can grow and become great stable citizens because I see that in Louisville where we're funding, we got all this money supposedly and we don't have, like a boys and girls club, we have one within the city of Louisville and that's unfortunate because people need positive places to go to, especially when their parents are working. Right. I'm accustomed to that. Just some positive things outside resources that they can utilize for women. I know we have workforce services to help get them jobs. Yes, but we also need more funding for training, education, education shouldn't be so expensive, at least local, like a two-year college should be free, something so once people are going to debt before they get their education. Right. Well, and to your point, Latrice, you're also saying that you are still paying off your student loans for your MBA and you're working on your children's tuition and still paying off your older daughter's college tuition and trying to do all of that for a low salary. So thank you for sharing that. Let me turn to you, Jamie, at this point that we're coming down on time and give you the last word here. Thanks so much. Thank you, everybody, for sharing your wisdom and knowledge today. You know, at the root of all of this, I think for me and where I land on the policies and really trying to look at dismantling and disrupting is that a lot of these systems and structures were founded on principles of white supremacy. And that's like the root of it, right? So how do we address it is just, it's so deeply embedded and woven into like our minds and systems and everything that I really am leaning into my ancestral wisdom, looking at how our communities, indigenous communities, looked at societies and structures. And it was really through a natural and your lens centering women, putting women in positions of leadership. So I support all the suggestions earlier. I also am a big advocate for universal healthcare, universal income, at least just something for folks to get by access to housing, access to healthcare. And then with the work that we do with entrepreneurs, access to capital, access to capital in Indian countries is a really huge issue because we can't actually build wealth or assets on tribal lands because we have a very unique political status in relationship with the US government. And I will just echo that one black lives matter, indigenous sovereignty is possible and that no one is illegal on stolen land and that in order to build an inclusive, regenerative, sustainable, holistic, loving economy that it's possible. And there are models that have existed prior colonization to look at. And a lot of those are indigenous models and with women color at the center driving it. Well, I want to thank all of the panelists today for this really important conversation. I want all of us to take this to heart. You know, everyone that's listening and really see this as a call to action for all of us to work together to build a more equitable future. So thank you all of you for sharing your stories, your expertise and your wisdom. I also want to thank all the participants that come and join us every week. I apologize, we didn't have time for your questions today, but we had so many great panelists and so much to say, a lot to cover. Thank you also to the New America events team, the communications staff, to the fantastic team at the Better Life Lab that I work with, to our producer, David Schulman. We hope that you'll join us again next week. We're going to be talking about life and transitions and the New York Times bestselling author Bruce Filer calls life quakes and how to survive and navigate and learn from them. So thank you all for joining. Wash your hands, take good care, and we'll see you next week.