 Okay, welcome to today's show. I'm Ty Lopez, Wen Lambeau, DeFi Crypto Show with myself and Dr. Alex Mayer, the professor, I call him. He's got his PhD in all kinds of evolutionary engineering, everything that is apropos for the blockchain world we live in. And we have a special guest today, Jeff Kurdekis, joining us from Canada. And he's got a launchpad. It's got one of the top launchpads in the world called TrustSwap, four and a half billion dollars locked, 30 plus launches to date, Average ROI 15x. He's got top five most downloaded Android crypto app in the world, used by 14,000 projects. So we're going to just be talking about the world of DeFi, what we find ourselves in. Alex and I have been busy the last couple of years doing all kinds of stuff, buying brands, some of the brands we're now pivoting into the blockchain world like Radio Shack and so on and so forth. But I wanted to talk, you know, on kind of Jeff's, this is the Jeff interview. The three questions that I see people asking, especially beginners in my family, right? It was Thanksgiving. Most common is like, what coins should I go into? What tokens should I go into in the DeFi world? So I want to talk about that. I want to, and that's just kind of a silly topic, but it's fun to talk about. More importantly, I want to talk about number two, which is, I was listening to a podcast with Naval and good old Vitalik. And how do we make this DeFi world easier? You know, Alex and I are co-founders of a protocol called USB. It's on Polygon and it's just for my mom or for my brothers. You know, this world has hampered itself and some of that is just par for the course of new technology. But it's the modern DeFi world is probably the least UI UX optimized tech concept in human history. I mean, like the Model T was easier to use for people used to being in horse and buggy. That jump was not as hard. So I want to talk about that. And then just number three, I want to talk about like, where do you see this thing ending up? Is DeFi the disruptor of sovereign nations and currencies? Or are they going to fight back? You see China fighting back. You see India fighting back. You see other countries joining in in Central America. But you know, when you threaten the powers that be, make no mistake, the powers that be the legacy powers are no joke. And empires often take centuries or dramatic endings to really be transitioned from, you know, the British Empire really took World War One for the United States to become the dominant power in the world. It was a, you know, multi-century. So you have money being controlled by the United States and or Sweden, which has the oldest central bank in the world, right? And 1600. So this is, you could argue, this is 400 plus years of nations that are bounded by manmade borders, putting controls on money. So let's start with the first one because it's fun. What's some coins out there, tokens out there, Jeff and Dr. Alex that are just fun to talk about? Even if they can be stupid, they can be good. You know, what's catching your eye, Jeff? We'll start with you. Yeah. So I mean, there's a lot of fun tokens out there. You know, everyone knows meme coins. Everyone sees the story of somebody investing, you know, X, like 5,000 in Shiba Inu turned into over a billion dollars or whatever the crazy number was. But you know, make no mistake, they're not investing. Those are all gambles. It's essentially taking an asymmetric risk reward, going to the casino and spinning the roulette. So, you know, there's tons of really fun opportunities out there. You know, my interest to answer the question for myself is it's not so much, you know, where are these gambles because you can find asymmetric risk rewards all over the place in crypto. I could almost say in a bull market, you know, you could close your eyes, throw 10 darts. One of them is probably going to go 100x and congratulations. You know, you've just made 10 times your money or whatever that works out to be. But I think the most interesting thing and what helps people really manage their emotions, because you know, they'll get into Shiba, it'll pump 10%, they'll announce their retirement and then it will dump 50% and now their life is messed up. And it's because, and now they're already looking to sell after this, like, you know, 48 hours later. And the reason is, is because they weren't investing, they were gambling. And so where I'm really interested is, you know, what are we actually putting our money into? You know, that's why I'm here. For sure the money is great. There's no question about that. I think that makes a lot of people stick. But there's just so many cool reasons to be in crypto. And I think, you know, your point, number three, where does it end? How does this all kind of come together? Money supply, I think will dive into that pretty deeply, I'm sure in this conversation. But, you know, the way that our traditional world works, not just with money, but the distribution of power, how our world interacts with borders and middlemen, that is all needless friction. And there's a lot of projects that take that friction out, make things a lot easier on, let's say, the back end, because I agree with you, the front end is an absolute joke of a UI tough. Me and Alex look at stuff and we're like, what was this built? I think of that Zoolander with like Ben Stiller is like, what is this made by ants or whatever? It's like a little thing. It's like, what is this a city for ants? But let me, okay, Jeff, I hear you. Give me one token. Alex, give me one token. It can be defied. It doesn't have to be a meme coin. What's an interesting one that's great Thanksgiving or Christmas table talk? A lot of people talk about Solana. Somebody earlier today was asking me, he's like, I'm buying Solana. Jeff, what do you think of all these blockchains that are popping up, Harmony, Phantom, the coin is FTM, Solana, all these that are popping up and what do you think is going to happen? I mean, how many blockchains can we have, side chains and all sorts of different things. This is like the Cambrian explosion. If you study like evolution, you had this period 100 million years ago or whatnot where there was literally, I think, over 100 million species on earth that no longer exist at all. Forget the Neanderthals. You're just talking about this explosion. Without a doubt, crypto is experiencing some kind of a Cambrian explosion of, like you said, blockchains. And in blockchain, Alex is a little bit, winner takes all. There's a network effect of the Ethereum. I mean, look in DeFi, we've got an app protocol that's on Polygon. What's the difference that turned into liquidity between Polygon and Ethereum, Alex? It is like almost 100x. So a lot more. Ethereum is a special blockchain in the sense that it has the largest ecosystem of developers and dApps, but it also has a huge drawback, which is its gas fee. It is just prohibitable. Normal people cannot use, do any transaction that is small on Ethereum. That's why all these sidechains exist. And then a lot of them are what's called EVM compatible, meaning they are compatible with Ethereum blockchain. Polygon is one of them. Phantom, Avalanche, Arbitrum, Parm, all sorts of these new blockchains are popping up. And then there are blockchains that are going their own routes, Solana being one of them. And I'm curious to know what's going to happen. It's a movie that's going to have some sort of ending. And we know at the end, all these characters are not going to be alive. Jeff, what do you think? Who makes it through this Cambrian explosion alive? Ethereum probably makes it through. It's a big brand name, if you ask me. Bitcoin, what's your take? For sure. I think we can all agree, Ethereum is not going anywhere. The reason why Ethereum gas fees are so high and so, quote, unquote, prohibitive is because so many people are using it. So you can't really make the argument that ETH is going to die, because if people stop using ETH in such ferocity, transaction fees get lower. And now you're back to ETH being at the same level in playing field of gas fees as are at least more similar to Polygon or BSE or whatever. So of course, ETH 2.0 on the horizon. It's been on the horizon. It's always like six months away. It's been that perpetual six months away for the last three years. So who knows when it ships? And that's presented in an opportunity for these L2s, or these other blockchains that Alex has been chatting about, because they're offering lower gas fees. Now, of course, the issue that everyone says, well, they're more centralized, or they have other issues, lower security. So there's always a trade-off. Whether you have security fees, decentralization, those are kind of the three that you always have to balance with. So how about a wild card like Cardano? Well, a very delegated proof of stake, I believe. So that would also be centralized. So I don't know how many validators they have, but let's say it's 100 validators. That's certainly less than hundreds of thousands of Ethereum miners. But I'm saying, do you think does Cardona get to mass adoption where people are building on it like they're building on Ethereum? Yeah, I think to be able to put these blockchains to get a lot of traction is Ethereum has the most traction because it has the most daffs. It has the most developers. It's not the most developer friendly to build on. So that's one of its drawbacks. But these blockchains that are having these huge hackathons, like I think crypto.com, the Kronos change has posted a $400 million hackathon or developer program. So those are the opportunities I think Avalanche has done the same. Crypto.com is throwing money around. They got the Staple Center for 20 or 30 years. I went to a Miami Heat game with one of Grant Cardo's business partners and went there and it's the FTX Center. I tell everybody it's like this 27 or 28 year old Sam billionaire guy just like F you to the world. He's like, oh, okay, it's like you guys don't believe in crypto. This used to be called the American Airlines Center. F you, let me put my name on it and then crypto.com is like, oh, this used to be the Staple Center. You know, this is where Kobe Bryant played. Let's call it crypto.com. And now they're doing a $400 million hackathon. I'm going, money is being made, ladies and gentlemen, money is being made in this Cambrian period because it's being sloshed around and thrown around just like being thrown around like it's water. Exactly. And you can look at all of these sports sponsorships and all the deals that these large companies are signing and the amounts of ROI that a lot of people are getting. And for people who aren't in crypto yet, you know, it's like spend a week, like take a, take your week vacation and spend it research in crypto. Then you're going to put it in your two weeks notice later because what's happening in crypto right now, like you say, it's just there's so much happening. There's so much capital being infused into the system because it's more efficient with capital. There's less middle man. There's less BS happening. So I'm, I'm very, very bullish on where this is all going. You know, to answer the question earlier, like what blockchains live and which ones die, it's going to be the ones that put, you know, that have dApps that actually have utility on their chains that will be sustainable because you can have meme coins. Take a chance, Jeff. Throw something out. We're not going to hold you to this. Like, what do I throw something out? Who survives 10 years from now? Obviously, anytime you make a 10 year prediction, you're going to make a mistake, but make a 10 year prediction. Alex, what's sitting out there? Solana, does it make it polygon? I think Ethereum is going to be like Microsoft and Solana is going to be like Apple. So two coexisting ecosystems, both of them viable. What do you say, Jeff, throw something out there? I'm on a very similar train of thought as well. You know, Solana is with, you know, FTT, with FTX exchange. You got Sam Brinkman-Freed back in this thing. The amount of power that these guys have, this chain is not going anywhere. And then polygon is kind of the go-to right now. Who knows where polygon ends up, but ETH is not going anywhere. It's going to be real tough to throw Solana off the sand. They're only getting bigger and bigger every day. And yeah. So I would say ETH and Solana are pretty sure bets. Avalanche, I really enjoy as well. That's probably my favorite side chain along with polygon. What do you like about Avalanche? What's the value prop that they bring? Yeah. So I think being EVM compatible is a big draw because a lot of people right now who are used to Ethereum are used to this one for people who are listening. It's like a wallet that kind of, like your bank account just sits in your internet browser. And so people are used to this metamask little online bank accounts and Avalanche links with it, Binance Smart Chain links with it, Polygon links with it. So it's just, it's more familiar to people. Solana, you have to go download a new wallet. I think user friction is, I'm sure, you know, like creating sales funnels and things like this, like you want to reduce user friction as much as you can. So being EVM compatible helps reduce that user friction. I think there's always room for at least one other big player that is not compatible with the existing nor case in point Apple. I think, you know, it's kind of like feels the same way, you know, Ethereum is like Windows, so to speak. And then maybe in early 2000s. And now Apple with MacBook is kind of like taking market share, taking market share, little by little. I mean, Solana, like Apple. So that is, like I said, it's like a movie. Every character is being developed. And we know some of them are going to be killed off. So we're trying to make it, yeah, we're trying to make it. Who makes it to the end? It's like, what was that movie that came out? It was like, there was a house there trying to figure out the murderer. It was a great movie. Something knives, right? Yeah, knives and forks out or something. But it's kind of like that. It's like, one of these motherfuckers is going to die. I often think about crypto going, bringing it back to DeFi. One of the analogies that I've brought up to Alex is like, this is like musical chairs. There's 2.0 DeFi projects paying out 60, 70, 80,000 APY and reward 200,000. And I'm going, okay, if you do the math here, 60,000 or 80,000 APY in five years, that's more, that's more money than there are atoms in the universe. So there is a, but it's as you brought up, a winner takes all a few wallets win. It's very much, there's a musical chairs element to not just blockchain, but to a lot of these protocols. And they, they track people because they've got this thing, but the thing that attracts people makes them unsustainable. But as the chairs pull out, but Alex was saying, he's like, Ty, but the difference is this is like one with a thousand people and there's only 10 chairs. That's not a fun musical chairs. You want the musical chairs like when you're little, where it's like a hundred people, there's 99 chairs. Yes. Now you got a good chance to survive. Yeah. There were DeFi protocols with like a million percent, one billion percent. I, I saw one once a trillion, like snow dog, right? Yeah, it's a trillion, but they all, but they always argue. No, no, but that's just at the beginning. But I'm like, but if you fucking print that, if you mint that much tokens, the supply overhang will destroy you later because all these people are sitting on gains. So that's not a good art. People always bring up this argument. Oh, well, okay, it's high APY, but it's just at the beginning. Well, you can fucking shoot yourself in the foot at the beginning and you plant the seeds of your own destruction. They may not be, you may not harvest those seeds immediately, but you know, with our USV, our Atlas USV project, Alex and I, and that co-founder, if you read the white paper, it's like we have this concept of SMRR, sustainable maximum reward rate. And anytime, you know, Joel Salatin, my first mentor, he's kind of in sustainable agriculture has become pretty famous now. He always told me, he's like, Ty, remember what grows fast in biology? Cancer. Cancer is unrestricted growth. So you actually want to have some impediments to growth because it's like, if you have a child that your child's born, you don't try to feed your child and go, I want you to be a teenager in a week. That process of feeding overfeeding is a process of poisoning the system. And it's like Chinese water torture. We all need water, but you can also kill somebody with too much water. So I think one of the things that I see and want to get your all opinion is this, because I'm a psychology guy, you know, I like Dr. David Busse and I like to study mass psychology. One of the chapters you can call of our white paper is, you know, the mass delusions of crowds. And there was a famous book in the 1800s on this, you know, the ordinary person's mass delusions. And I think everybody says, oh, I'm in crypto, a lot of people, I'm in crypto to save the world. But if you look at it, a lot of people are just like, this is the biggest gold rush in human history. So how do you think crypto and blockchain and DeFi balances bringing in the right kind of people? Because also to Alex, if we said, our USB protocol is about 150%, which is still insane, APY, if you think about it. But if you set it to 80,000, you attract, you know, the wrong audience into crypto. So what does crypto need to do as a community to go? We're not going to encourage everybody to be the ultimate degenerate. Pigs get fought, fat hogs get slaughtered. There's a lot of hogs here, you know, and we're all susceptible to it. So what are the impediments that have to happen? Does it have to be a bear run? Does it have to be, I mean, a bear, a crash, you know, is that's what's needed? Because that's usually what's needed. Yeah. And in 2017, you know, we had the big run up and then 2018, the big crash down and everyone ever in the industry who are building were saying, oh, thank goodness, like we're finally washing all these projects out these cash grabs. Well, look, here we are, you know, the DeFi summer last year and now it's meme coin, Cambrian explosion, the last few months. And so I don't think this mentality ever changes necessarily, you know, people's individual mentalities may change as, you know, as you get more money and kind of get the base of your, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, well, then great. Now you can start looking for more, let's say, philanthropic or yeah, upper echelon goals. But I don't think that, you know, these meme coins, these cash grabs, these kind of casino gamblers are ever going to leave. Maybe they adapt and transmute it to something else. But I think what we just are going to be seeing is projects starting to combine different initiatives. You know, for example, USV, you're doing, I think believe 10% to charity. There's another one that uses a similar model called Klima. They are all backed by base carbon tons. So their treasury is backed by essentially carbon credits. Or for example, like Trustwap, we do a lot of like planting with Eden Reforestation. So I think you're starting to see a lot of these projects starting to take a lot more ecological centric vision, just because now we have the means there's so much capital, what good is more capital. So it's now, but speaking of Klima, they're on a little bit of a tear in the wrong direction for them. You know, one of the things it's like, do you want all your treasury and carbon credits? I'm all for philanthropy and stuff, but you also have to do things at me. What do you think of that? Yeah, we at USV, we don't have all our, Alex, would we ever put, you know, would the treasury of USV ever all be in carbon credits? Zero chance. Alex is like, what the fuck is that? Not to criticize Klima, but that's, yeah. You know, there's, you gotta, it's like, that's why portfolio theory, it seems like a thing that nobody in crypto has ever heard of. It's all about diversifying your portfolio, having exposure to different asset class with different risk reward. It just obviously- Yeah, we follow the Markowitz kind of portfolio optimization theory, Alex. You worked on that during your PhD and all that good stuff. Yeah, I did. What angle were you looking at it from? Because you were more doing aerospace stuff. Yeah, risk management. So it's basically, you have a certain amount of risk reward in management of the spacecraft, and it's kind of like, look at it at a portfolio. So you can have a certain amount of redundancy on the spacecraft, but you can't have redundancy for everything. So for every single thing. So how do you distribute that and manage your risk? It's the same concept. It's all about- What's the math that you're using when you're putting together this space, you know, you work for NASA. What are you doing? What's the actual, is this some kind of- So Markowitz theory, no, Markowitz theory, it looks at a mean return, like basically average return from an asset. And then it looks at its variance, like how much volatility it has and the correlation with other things. For example, if you have a portfolio, if you forget about having a portfolio, if you have a single asset, you're just trading off return versus volatility. But if you have a portfolio of let's say two assets, you're trading off each asset has its own return, mean return, and then volatility, but there's also correlation. So if you have two assets that are negatively correlated, it's better to have the two of them in the same portfolio. It doesn't make sense. So you build basically a matrix- But I was saying, how do you put that into a spaceship? I was going away from crypto. What do you do? Because you were saying, like you said, it's like the efficient frontier, there's the optimal point. So you don't want to have redundancy, let's say on, I don't know, every water bottle that's in the middle of the, that's on the spaceship, but you definitely want to have them on the main booster rockets or something. That's right. But there's also one subsystem can compensate for the other subsystems failure, just like in a portfolio, you have one asset that if it crashes, the other asset thrives. So you can have basically negatively correlated in terms of risk, subsystems or components in the spacecraft. So you basically say, look, I have this asset and on its own, it is risky. But I put it next to this other component that is also risky, but one of them is a failover for the other one. Does that make sense? So one of, one of them fails, the other one can compensate. And that's how you set up a portfolio of component that each one of them is about minimizing risk on each component in a system is about having a portfolio of components that kind of compensate for each other and one can cover for the other one. Does that make sense? So the same thing would happen in a portfolio of crypto assets. So if you have, so you obviously have stable coins and you have assets that are super volatile, let's say meme coins as an example, and then you have, you know, eth and bitcoin that are somewhat more stable. But then you, if you find assets that are negatively correlated to give you, to give you an example, you know, I've been following Olympus's token for a long time, for a long time, it's not true anymore. Long time was nine months. Yeah. We're talking to these crypto guys are like, Alex, Ty, you guys can't even think about competing with swaps because there's these entrenched players. We look, it's like, which ones? You mean the one that's 48 days old? Oh yeah, totally entrenched competition. Memories. But the point is, like it was negatively correlated. You could actually see every time Ethereum would go up, their token would go down and vice versa. So it makes sense to have the two of them in a portfolio. It doesn't make sense. So they kind of make up for each other. And that's, that's something that is not, I don't see done. It's obviously done a lot in constructing a pension fund or a portfolio in the traditional finance, but I don't see it done very much in crypto. Everybody's after, you know, the next 100X return over the next week kind of scenario. Yeah. And I mean, the layman, as you were mentioning, I think the easiest way for people to do that is just hold 33% stables or 50% stables because then no matter what the market's doing, it goes up, congratulations, you're 50% risk on market goes down. Great. Start dollar cost averaging, you know, throw 5% in Bitcoin just crashed to 10K. It's not, it's not your worst day. It's your lucky day because if you're putting it into Bitcoin, you probably have a long time horizon regardless. So congratulations. Here's your opportunity, you know, capture it. Yeah, I got a lot. I got a lot of hate because in 2017, August 2017, I did the first crypto mastermind had all these people, some of them are crypto billionaires at the house and they progressed, you know, and then they crashed in 2018 and people are like, oh, you led people and got them to buy in and then it crashed. I'm like, bitch, what the fuck are you talking about? First off, I told people, you always dollar cost average in and dollar cost average out. This is like such pedantic, basic finance IQ. It's been you know, memorialized by economists for 40 years if you know how to do math. And first off, I mean, yes, you do have to educate people because the average person who went through the modern school system is so financially illiterate that they see a bull run as more advantageous than bear bull run is advantageous when you got in during the bear. But the bull in and of itself is of no advantage to you because the bull creates a greed. It creates mass psychosis. So you as you get in during the bull, you go, you never sell. So people ride it all the way up and down. So really, you know, the ideal situation is to get in during the bear. Because in the bear, you're catching on, you know, if you map out an economic movement, you have the peak, you have a contractionary period, you have a bottom and you have an expansionary peak, and then you have the top and it just never ends. And there is no in terms of optimal time to get in, you can argue anytime it's optimal to get in the sooner, the better in everybody's life. Warren Buffett started investing, I think at seven. That's the best way to get rich. You invest at seven. As they say, time in the market is better than timing in the market. But really for practicality, most people are better getting in in the bear run in the bear phase because when it's down, your expectations are lower, the greed level gets lower. And as it starts to get raw, it starts to rise, you go, let me put a little more in and let me put a little more in. And as it peaks, maybe you go, let me at least take my initial cost basis off the table, you know, and so, so people are, it's a, it's very strange for all that crypto to pose. I mean, I feel like crypto tracks some of the smartest people. And there's two types of crypto people, the 20% who are smart people. And then the 80% who have the appearance of intelligence, but have the behavior, you know, of the masses, no differentiation. They just have more jargon, jargon. I mean, me and Alex, I, we have about it in our companies. I have about 600 employees and we own big brands, pure one. And these are mainstream brands, you know, this is nine figure revenue stuff. And we hire people sometimes. And I can tell I'm the CEO, they want a jargon and be like, see, I know it's a variable gross margin. I'm like, stop this. Albert Einstein used the least amount of jargon to explain equals MC squared. And so anyway, Alex, what, what it wouldn't, what's the day you wish you had gotten into crypto? Assuming you can't get in at a day Bitcoin launches. What in the last five years, when's the best time, you know, a trade is never over until you exit it. So the question is, when would you have gotten in and when you would have gotten out? But I want to challenge that concept even further. Think like a chess grandmaster. I play chess once a month or a couple of times a month with the number two grandmaster in the world, Fabiano Carl, him and Magnus Carlson are always trying to compete for the best chess master grandmaster. And when you think like grandmaster, okay, is the trade really over when you get out? Because you got the IRS. And now you have capital to debris deploy. So it might be that the trade is over when you what are the things that are certain in life, death and taxes, the plots over when you're dead. And for you still have to deploy capital, and you got to give some to Uncle Sam. You know, I was reading one of the famous Greek historical philosophers, you know, not epic, but one of the, I'll remember in a second, but all these dudes had very similar names. But he was saying, basically, to summarize, you don't totally have comfort till the day you're dead, because the fates and fortunes of many people have risen and fallen. Some start out horrible. And then, you know, Louis the forget which one of the French. No, no, earlier, I think it was Louis the 11th, one of these, he took one of the famous people from like a prince from Italy. And that Italian prince was powerful, wealthy his whole life. And he spent his last 10 years in a cage going insane. While Louis the 11th, I think, watched him and basically tortured him to death. So that what the what the historian was saying, I think it was actually Napoleon Bonemart was talking about how fate is fortunate is like a female. If you balk at her advances, she may never come back to you. But fortune and fate is a cruel mistress she comes and goes. And so it's hard to know when you've won in life. And all of you always come in dark day for a lot of crypto people that think they want. Oh, well, so that that that argues for taking some money off the table. Yes. So it's, you know, but you still got to put it somewhere. Because if you're holding in stables, if you're holding in US dollar, you know, you can bet that your purchasing power is being devalued on a year over your basis. So if you're just throwing it into the into like an RSP, you're probably going negative against inflation. You're you're not able to catch up. If you want to buy a house and you're trying to save some RSP, good luck, you're never going to get there. Yeah, but maybe the right approach, like if I wanted to construct the hedge fund would have been you have a certain amount of stables, and then you have your portfolio of non stables, and then you just shift in and shift out into stables. And you just do that cyclically. Another approach is to do Warren Buffett by what you believe in and you never sell. Or the real Warren Buffett, which is what Alex and I do, we invest in companies, but we own them. So the best risk adjusted return comes from pointing capital in a direction where you have more power than just the capital you point. So Warren Buffett comes into Bank of America, he buys 10, 9% or whatever Bank of America, but he also gets control of the CEO's compensation. That's right. He sits on that committee. So for me and Alex, we're not really passive investors, I think most if you study the Forbes list, which is better than Harvard MBA of understanding wealth, it's right there on a website. You can just reverse engineer the patterns. The people who create wealth create a brand and they exert control. There are no passive investors at the top of the list. So I think the one disclaimer for people in crypto that you have to realize is that the passive investor game is an illusion. It's an oasis, a mirage that always appears out on the horizon. And at the end of the day, you're better off to actually be involved in a protocol. And now with the DAO world and so on, there's possibilities for people to be involved in big projects. It's certainly never been easier to get involved with crypto projects. You just hop in in any telegram room and you just start helping out or DAOs. You're going to be able to get involved and the amount of capital there is incredible. That said, even passive investing and being able to buy when there's fear in the market and just have a higher time preference, Bitcoin was at $3,500 not that long ago. And so if you're like, listen, there's an opportunity, you get in today, it's at 60. That's a 20 X ROI on a less than two year timeframe. So, not bad for Joe Public, who's making 4% annual usually. Oh, let CD, we saw CDs. You look at CDs, there's 0.1% CDs. It's unreal. A 10th of a present. Okay. So you put a thousand bucks in, 10% will be a hundred bucks. 1% will be 10 bucks. A 10th of a, you get a dollar in a year. Meanwhile, they're lending that out. Leverage 10 to 1. Leverage 10 to 1, exactly. Yeah. Bill Towson used to tell me it's better to do nothing for nothing than something for nothing. Don't put it as a 0.1 CD is like, what the fuck? It's better to keep it in checking accounts, so at least you can use it if the opportunity arises. Absolutely. So it's like, you take away the option. It's better to keep it in shoelaces or shoes. It's better to buy shoes. You got your squat shoes. They have utility to them. One penny, one dollar has no utility anymore. I'll tell you what though, there are a lot of good stablecoins out there or protocols that, where you can deposit stablecoins and they're fully insured, custodyed, so fairly user-friendly, just got to do your KYC. And they're paying 8 to 12 to 16, sometimes 20% APY annual on these stablecoins. So I think crypto, it's coming for the banks and their savings accounts, because once the UI gets a lot more friendly and we're able to onboard people, and then you start telling to Joe public, hey, listen, you're earning 0.01% is like my bank savings accounts as well, or you can earn 16% fully custodyed, fully insured. Because if the world crashes and there's a huge bank run and everyone who goes to the bank, we've seen that happen in the world multiple times. They're going to say, oh, sorry, you can only take out five grand or you can't take out anything at all. You got this in stablecoins. There's nothing to, they can't not give you the money, because they have it there. They're not leveraging it out 10 to 1. They have it for you. So that is very, very interesting. There's been a few. It depends on the centralized pegs. Now, by the way, speaking of that, some of the 2.0 protocols are very invested in stablecoins, which Alex and I don't understand, because if the whole point of crypto is that the dollar isn't a great place to peg, then let's go out and create a whole bunch of stuff, peg to the thing we don't like. It's a bizarre one. Alex and I are working on some protocols, partially collateralized stablecoin. Alex is a huge fan. You can get a tattoo, Dr. Alex PS, partially stable. You're partially stable, Alex. That's all I'm going to call you. It's not bad. There's a reason for that. So Jeff, you talked about stablecoins. There are obviously central stablecoins, centralized stablecoins like USDCs, probably the one that people trust the most. And then there are on-chain over collateralized ones like DAI, which is the most famous one. The problem is you have to lock up a lot of assets, collateralized to make DAI, and that puts a natural cap on the amount of stablecoins that are out there, which is why we are a fan of partially collateralized stablecoins. So they have some partial backing, but it allows for leveraging the backing to make more stablecoins available, but not crazy like US dollar, which is basically many leveraged over. What do you think, Jeff? Jeff, what do you think of something like Terraluna? Yeah, well, I'll tell you, like being backed by something, as we're saying, is definitely better than being backed by nothing. And there's so many stablecoins out there that whether you're partially backed by value, partially algorithmically backed, some of them are rebased backed, some of them are more of the Olympus, USV model. There's so many models out there. There's some that are gold backed, some that are coming in that are land backed. Obviously, so I think right now we're in the experimentation phase because exactly what you're talking about, it's like, okay, listen, we have stablecoins, great, but it's allowing for ease of transfer. Now we're not paying 40 bucks to Western Union or whatever amount of fees on wire transfers and waiting seven days and just getting raked over the coals. At least we can transact money with stablecoins that are pegged to the US dollar, but it's not the end all be all. And so I think we're seeing a lot of experimentation right now. So what is going to be the end all be all? It's anybody's guess. I'm excited to just see all the experiments come out. Yeah. Real estate is interesting. Alex and I, most of the protocols that we're doing like the USV, which is partially collateralized, we're interested in the things that could be currency, things that are in DeFi specifically, also real estate. If you look at the $250 trillion net worth of planet earth, it's mostly finance and real estate in reality. And so the key is how can you actually back things with off chain real estate or how do you bring real estate on chain, which is something a lot of people are thinking about and have thought about. But for sure, it's easier said than done because real estate, I own a lot of farm lands. I've started to get Alex to buy for I own over a thousand acres of land we farm organically. And you know, I would just bought another farm about 700 acres and you go there. It's archaic process. I mean, you're talking about deeds and stamps going on stuff, not even bank. You think Bank of America is out of date. You got somebody has to stamp it. Let me put a stamp. Let me put a wax seal on this thing and send it by Paul Revere courier by horseback in the night. So it's going to be like, oh, put that on chain. And then every county is a different thing in the United States. And I buy farmland. I was looking at some farmland in Sweden and Denmark. And it's like, okay, whoever pulls that stuff, it ain't going to be easy. But it'll be done. Because like you say, every jurisdiction, every area has their own laws, has their own ways. So to be like, hey, listen, I'm going to transfer this deed title in California all the way over to, you know, Nunavut, Canada, but just by pressing send on ether scan, that's, that's going to be very complex. And we're 10 years out from that. I think what needs to happen is a hybridized approach where there's an intrinsic layer of trust or like a layer of satisfactory acceptance. So it's like, hey, listen, we've bought the deeds. Here they are. We've uploaded them online. You can check public registries. We own this. Here's the appraised value. Here's who appraised it. This is what the value is. And then you have, boom, that is essentially a backed value. And now, as that real estate appreciates, whether it's land or whether it's apartment high rises that are also earning revenue income, you can distribute that to the stablecoin holders. So even if it's pegged to a dollar, they can be receiving dividends. So even though they're, they'd be earning, you know, you look at your account one day, you got 100, 100 of these coins. The next day you got 120 because the asset, the stablecoin that you're holding is actually appreciating alongside inflation. So I think that is where I'm excited to see a lot of innovations start coming out. Because right now we're kind of in, yeah, like, we haven't bridged the physical and the digital world yet. Right now we're really backed by digital goods. So I'm looking forward to seeing the physical backing. Yeah, it is. I mean, yeah, interest bearing or yield bearing stablecoins are definitely going to be huge. This is, it feels like it's another movie right here with stablecoin characters are being built and some of them are going to kill off the other ones. It feels like a bunch of parallel movies are going on at the same time. It's very interesting this world. So let's close with this. I talked about this, I think we talked about the first two things, but third thing I want to talk about is governments. I think the biggest kind of existential threat to everything people are trying to do. The thing that's bigger than the thing, the meta, as you could say, baby, is the United States wakes up one day, the powers that be and go, no, Moss, if you own cryptocurrency, you go to jail. Or you have a special tax since 98% tax on non fiat investments, whatever it might be. I mean, trust me, politicians and bureaucrats are kings and queens of destroying good things. Just look at the state of California. Okay, so you see that the China didn't seem to have a huge effect on the cost or the price of crypto. Now you have India. You have a few countries embracing it. What do you put on as a real, what's your percentage if you go one to 100% chance? For sure, it's not a zero, it's not a zero percent chance that governments jumbled this whole thing up. What's your percentage, Alex, that you put on that a government intervention gets large enough to cause an appreciable setback of a decade to the blockchain world, crypto world? Is it 20% chance? 3? 98? I think it is low into 20%, maybe 10% chance. I think it is at that point where the genie is out of the bottom, so to speak. So the only way to deal with it is to try to put a regulatory framework around it to control the extreme scenarios and make this thing behave properly, but you can't really completely kill it. I think I'm not 100% sure. Alex gives it 20% to 30% chance. What's your number? I mean, if we're talking about government, specifically the USA already dipping their fingers and doing it such a large way that it sets back crypto a decade. They certainly have, of course, they've already put their hands into ICOs. They've already muddled that up. So I'd say 100% on that. But if we're talking about Bitcoin and these kind of drastic China-like bans, they have all the incentive to do this because if this gets big enough, which it's definitely headed there, what happens to the US dollar? If they lose control of the US dollar, that is not good news at all. You see what happens when countries try to go off the US dollar. They send their little force down there. They cut a guy's head off and, hey, we liberated them. So I think the chances are quite high that if this continues to increase in its ability to overthrow the US dollar as a global reserve currency, that there will be pushback in some form or another. Will they outright ban it? Who knows. But I think they can certainly make things a lot more taxing for like a double use of the word on the people where it just makes it way more cumbersome to use. They've already talked about unrealized capital gains tax. They could do that on crypto specifically. So I think in the world of where our jobs are getting automated and we're moving into a digital age, I think there will be clampdowns from countries that are trying to maintain this stranglehold. And I really hope to see people being able to move where they're treated best. Because I think the USA, you look at healthcare, what's it doing for you? Nothing. So what does the government, what does taxes do? They build you a couple of roads, great. And you've got a big military defending who knows what. So I think as the world progresses, we're going to see a shift. Globalization is very much here with jobs where we can work from our laptops more and more and more. I think if they try to squeeze too much with the regulations, it's just going to push innovation out to other countries. And we're already seeing that not just crypto, but with other technology sectors. It doesn't really make sense to have a company domiciled in the USA anymore. It's just too tight. If you look at the top two, they're not startups, but new players on the field you have Shopify out of Canada, you have Klarna out of Sweden. These are 100 plus billion market cap value. These are valuable companies. And so that's interesting. So Alex was at 20, Jeff is saying it's somewhat inevitable, but the solution will be that you'll decentralized. That's actually what it is. That's what Jeff is saying. And I would say the U.S., even the 20 trillion dollar GDP of the United States is only a fourth of the world. And so if the U.S. completely banned crypto, you've got people in Dubai and Argentina and Madagascar and New Zealand and they love it. So it's like Alex said, it's probably you're too smart guys. It's probably somewhere in between. The genie is out of the bottle. And if you want my opinion, the genie doesn't, genies don't go back in the bottle when people make a lot of money. If it was some stupid thing like satellite TV channels or something, that can get shut down. A country says, oh, you can't have 3000 channels anymore. It's against the law. And there's not going to be a revolt. But when people have money, I mean, and remember, no matter what anyone says, Washington DC still runs around money. There's going to be there's, I think the biggest counter argument to crypto being destroyed by bureaucrats in whatever country is that the big money's in it now. And when you get the sequoias in it and you get the black rocks in it, these people in many ways, you know, look at black rock, 10 trillion dollar assets under management, people are like, these people control the White House. You get a call, you know, you're president of the United States, you get a call from a 10 trillion dollar asset, you take that call. And then he goes, yo, Bubba, we have a lot of money in damn Bitcoin. Can you throw us a break? I'll contribute to your campaign. A lot of the world runs that way. We think the world runs in these complicated ways and everybody thinks there's an illumination. There's 17, you know, inspector gadget, Dr. Evil guys in the back. No, it's more about, yo, I played golf with you, Mr. President or Mr. Prime Minister or Mrs. Chancellor. Can you ease up a little bit? Cause I got about 50,000 investors with $10 trillion with me and we ain't going to vote for your ass. And we could bring resources. I don't even think they have to say that. I think it's a friendly conversation. Yeah. Or I mean, they just flip them a $10 million speaking fee at their next event to talk about whatever. So it's, you know, that's all. But even then it's an unsaid thing. It's kind of like, I used to have nightclubs, one of my first business. And I had, I had a bouncer who was seven foot two. I weighed him once. He was 515 pounds. He used to just go up to people and be like, it's time for you to leave. And people will be like, I'm going to leave. There wasn't, there was an unspoken like, I'm a $10 trillion human. My hand, he wore size 22. Cause like, I'm going to kick you with the 22 foot shoe. And it's going to be, you know, it ain't going to feel it ain't, you're going to get launch padded out of this nightclub. And I think that when a $10 trillion asset manager calls the president or prime minister of a country and goes, there's money here. You're, you're not just me as a Larry thinker, whoever, that's the CEO of BlackRock, not necessarily BlackRock. The Illuminati, the Illuminati is in front of you. You see them. They're on the Forbes list. They're, it's not a secret alone. I'll give you a little thing. I know billionaires, quite a few of them. They mostly hate each other. They're all high level narcissists in many ways. So they're not all colluding and some, you know, they don't go to dinner at like Manhattan once a year ago. How could we f*****g die? George Soros, you coming? Oh yeah. I mean, that's just, I used to think that way because I grew up, you know, with a single mom, my dad was in prison. I didn't grow up around millionaires or billionaires. So I have this wall street up concept, you know, how the world's run. Now I just see it's like, my couple dudes play golf. They have a couple of friends. It's not even hidden. They're not even using signal or telegram. They're like, they're like, they're like sending emails in writing. Yo, president, can you ease up on this Bitcoin, you know, unrealized gains? And so, yeah, interesting. Jeff, I'm going to check back in on you. You said in 10 years, who said 10 years? You said 10 years all real estate can be, or real estate will be on the blockchain. I hope you're right. I didn't, I didn't say to clarify. I don't think I said in 10 years it will all be, I think. No, it's there. I'm your biggest fan. I'm your biggest fan. I'm not against you. I hope you're right. If you can stick real estate on the blockchain, and if you think it's tough, you were just talking about American real estate. I was over in Sweden. I mean, this stuff is a whole another world, buying land in Denmark. You go to buy stuff in London, you can't buy it because the queen owns it. So you get to buy it for a hundred years. How the fuck do you put that on the blockchain? We own a brand called Ralph and Russo. It's up one of the most well-known luxury brands in Europe, you know, and we're in Harrods. Harrods is like the most highfalutin department store in the world, right? I was looking at real estate across the street. It's like freehold, they call them, and I forget the other name. I'm like, yeah, let's buy this. It's like, you can buy for a hundred years. Okay, what happens after a hundred years? It's the queen. She gets it back. Try to put that on the blockchain. You're going to have to go to the queen and be like, we've got to stop this. We know that for the last, you know, 1100 years you all have owned everything, but we're some crypto dudes and we've got a better idea for you. We'd like you to put this on the blockchain. Let me explain what an EVM is. Let's talk about Ethereum. We want to talk about some machines, virtual machines, and let's talk about private keys. Queen. I can't give it back to you. Sorry, guys. I forgot my private key. And we're going to put it on Polygon. So even if you are on Coinbase, Mrs. Queen, you're going to, you can't send it over there. You're going to have to bridge. You've got to get somatic. You're going to have to bridge across. When you have your medicast, don't forget your mammograms. You've got to have the browser open extension. It's like, I'm 100 years old. I'm the queen of England. How about this? I will smack you out of my way, you know? So that's what I said. It's like, I think I honestly think generations have to die off for real lasting change. You know, my grandma sadly died at 102 and she was born in 1918. She really lived through two real worlds. And she lived through kind of the full. So pre-1918, you know, she was born, World War I was still going. She was born in February, 1918. It was still going. The U.S. was still involved. Russia, you know, and World War I ended November 11th at 11 a.m. And that was really a beginning of the modern world. Maybe 1917 because you could say the Russian Revolution, which led to Stalin, which led to the Cold War, well, which led to World War II, led eventually to Stalin, the Cold War. And so, but before 1918, before she's born, she had one foot in as a baby to the old world. You still had, you know, 90% of the world was rural. Okay. Her grandparents were born in the 1830s. She remembers. She's like, I remember my grandparents. They were born in the 30s, she used to tell me. I'm like, grandma, you're gonna have to specify that. You mean the 1830s? You can't say the 30s. She's like, yeah, they were back in the 30s. And I was like, grandma, you mean the 18th? She's like, yeah, born in 1837 or whatever. And Germany didn't exist when they were born. Italy didn't exist. Germany was formed in the late 1800s. Italy was formed in the 19, I mean, so she had her foot in this world. Still, her family remembered Napoleon. They list, they remember her grandparents could have gone and listened to Brahms and List and Tchaikovsky. So she had her foot in that world. Civil War veterans were still walking around. And then she lived all the way up to the world of crypto. But I think that the world changed probably with, you know, right now, the big pandemic probably changed it. So it's crazy. Now everyone born is going to live, I'm going to have one foot in the second modern world. And now it's the third wave. It's the third revolution. I think crypto brings a lot to that because do you think internet is more of a revolution than crypto? No, internet will be a precursor. The free flow of information. Peter Drucker spoke of this. He said that we are now in the information age, but there's a time coming when he called that, you know, the knowledge society will be formed. I would say so information began to freely flow, just quick to email, quick to Google. You were connected informationally, quote unquote, with your friends on Facebook. Early 2000s. Yeah, even to now, even to now. But the knowledge, now the actual, I've talked to Alex about this, I mean, bigger than crypto will be gene splicing when you can change human DNA. This Trump's going to space. This Trump's electric cars. This Trump's digging holes to eliminate traffic. You really, you really would change the universe mostly by changing evolution. The problem is if you do it wrong, you create, you know, a whole bunch of stall ins, a whole bunch of, you know, mousy dungs. But I think that control, the change of money will be is more powerful than information because as we say in our white paper, we have a quote of the invisible hand that Adam Smith, you know, the change of the flow of money will push things in ways that we can't fathom now, you know, this podcast will seem stupid in 30 years, but at least we got it right. I think that the push, there's now, think about this, Adam Smith writes about the invisible hand that was still, you know, the industrial revolution started in 1769. That's kind of the date, right? The steam engine. That's a date people put on it. So Adam Smith's in that time, the industrial time, which we're still in now. And he was talking about how the invisible hand capitalism moves. And you had two big trains of thought. You had Karl Marx in 1800, you had Adam Smith, and you see the world kind of divided in half still to this day. There's very socialist, Europe's more socialist, but it was still within a paradigm where the invisible hands were governmental forces. Stalin was central command, Mao Zedong's central command economies was just here, but it's still within the constraint of sovereign nations. If crypto breaks up sovereign nations, now the Adam Smith invisible hand, it's like, it goes wild. It might be smacking us all around. Who knows what happens. That's why I say, with crypto probably needs gene splicing at the same time. Because to improve people. So it doesn't. Yeah, so all of a sudden, everybody doesn't have their own nation bazooka walking around. Like that's what countries did. That's what sovereign nations did. They impair civilization. That's why Sigmund Freud wrote his best book, in my opinion, which is civilization and its discontents. It's one of the most profound things I think he wrote in 1926. It's probably the best one. It's chapter two, probably the best chapter of any book written since 1926. And but it was the civilization and its discontents. If you kind of uncivilize the world. So you're saying, you're saying the world is becoming more libertarian, meaning there was the sovereign nation puts check on things even though it also hampered things. Now the power of sovereign nation is diminishing. Therefore, it is more in the hands of people. And we need to make people better so that they can control their own destiny. That's kind of this is why I'm partners with Alex. He understands what I'm saying. Some people don't get it. But yeah, because if so you go to a nations can only have bazookas and go, no, fuck that. We're libertarian. Everyone protect their own home. Everyone gets a bazooka. Well, okay, what's the problem of centralized? You have a military that has a bazooka. Maybe you can train them. I'm not sure what's a better world is a better world where military only has guns or where everybody has a gun. I mean, this is a whole another argument around libertarianism gun control, which is not far from crypto because Hillary Clinton just came out. The worst thing for sovereign nations is cryptocurrency. I'm like, yes, she is very accurate. Yes. The question is, is it better to have sovereign nations than to put more sovereignty in the hand of the individual? This is a complex conversation of, you know, everybody should go. We're going to do a shameless plug. Go read our white paper for usv. We talk about the invisible hand. We talk about, you know, the deconstruction of society. It's not just a white paper, but if you go to tidelopez.com slash white paper, it'll it'll redirect you to our white paper for Atlas usv, even if you don't buy our token, which it's not our token. We're co-founder of the protocol. But even if you don't buy it by usv, which you should, by the way, because it's well thought through in our shameless plug of ourselves like this, even though it's not perfect yet, but, you know, all of these things evolve, but you'll read in the white paper this very conversation, which is very philosophical and complicated, but there's a lot of game theory in it. If you, people love game theory, but I don't think that the average person knows what the fuck they're talking about when they talk about game theory. But we have this, our protocol is fundamentally built around this NASS equilibrium tokenomic. If, you know, we have this defense kind of concept, because you have nations because it's supposed to eliminate defectors, hawks, and doves. They call it is a more biological term. So you have the United States because it's supposed to be a whole bunch of cooperators that cooperate against the attack of China or somebody like that. But in reality, the game theory becomes so complex, you know, Denmark's happier. You're probably mathematically best off to live in Scandinavia, you know, not the United States. So the game theory there on the optimal kind of this front, going back to the fish frontier, optimal point, libertarian country, the most libertarian country is probably actually inside of Denmark. There is this little place called Christian, it's a free town. So the police don't go into it. And the police don't go in there. And guess what has the most murders, Alex in Copenhagen, that place. But some people love it because you could do drugs. And when you go into Copenhagen, Scandinavia, it's much more centralized, much more socialist. And so I'm not sure I, you know, was Hillary Clinton wrong? Was she right? I think she made an observation that's accurate. I don't agree with her final conclusion that therefore, because it's an anti sovereign nation that it shouldn't be done. But yeah, creating it. Yeah. The biggest changes when you look back in history are like when there's like new empires have been formed and it's been this big drastic change of power. And right now, to me, the biggest power is control of the monetary supply. So when you introduce another monetary supply that doesn't just because USA is trying to be like with the, you know, the petrodollar, they've tried to fuse themselves and they've done a great job. But now there's a new global monetary power. And so once you undermine that one thing, you know, how does that play into the shift of an empire? Like we've seen countless times in past history, you know, Bitcoin, you know, you're asking the question, is it internet or money that's more important or cryptocurrency? And in terms of creating like drastic change in the power dynamic of our global like infrastructure and, you know, globalization, I think, I think really cryptocurrency is going to make a much larger impact because internet was just an information transfer, as you were saying, but Bitcoin is changing the power structure of our world. And that's going to be a very interesting time. And is it better if everyone has a bazooka and everyone, you know, it's lawless and people are moving everywhere? Who knows? But I think we for sure owe ourselves the experiment because, you know, the 50 year fiat experiment, not sure it's going so well in the USA right now. So yeah, maybe I mean, you could go ahead, Alex. Yeah. What do you think of central bank digital currencies? It's an attempt to create a substitute. That is a threat. That's what India said they'll do. Right. And so, you know, central bank digital currency is an improvement on the current system. Because if I want to go send, you know, 100 bucks to Denmark right now, and I want to do a wire transfer or, you know, making PayPal or Venmo work, it is a nightmare. So at least if we have something that can cross borders for a very low fee, you know, that's an improvement. Well, mark my words, they will fuck that up. There is 0% chance. Remember when Obama was going to do a website where you can do your health care? That thing lasted 15 minutes. Whoever built that website probably got paid $600 trillion out of the US Treasury, and they built a website on Wix. They built a Wix template website that exploded and nobody could ever fix it. I don't even know what happened. The odds of a century, first off, there's no chance on earth. That's why I said generation has to die off. American politicians, even if they do a central currency, mark my words. It'll be American only and it won't interface with any other country. So you will not be able to send it to Denmark because Denmark won't interface with America. They'll be like, and every time there's a little spat between ambassadors, they're like, we froze in all digital. I don't think people are going to want, I don't want to use a centralized currency out of governments. I don't know. But I mean, is that any different than the dollar right now? Because that, you know, assets can be frozen regardless. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. I think adoption is going to be a difficult thing. I think that the phrase I think is like lipstick on a pig is what it is. Like you're making it a little bit better, but it's not, it's not good. It's not good. Or out of the, out of the, what is it? Out of, what is it out of the, into the frying pan? Out of a fire into the frying pan. Right. Oh, okay. We'll go for the dollar, but some crypto projects are also out of the fire of the US dollar, right into something just as shitty. That's, I'll tell you the biggest existential threat to crypto is too many shitty projects, which burns too many people, which complained to too many senators. You know, an interesting story. So not to digress, but these podcasts are allowed to digress. I guess that's the point of a podcast. There was a mafia dude, okay, in the 1950s. And he goes down and he can be the king of Cuba. He's like, fuck America. They're on to me. I'm going to end up in prison. I'll just go to Cuba. So he goes to Cuba and part of the Godfather movie has a little bit of this in it. They, they allude to it, but the true story. He goes down and he sets up a casino with good old Fidel Castro centralized government, by the way, the opposite of blockchain is Fidel Castro running one man running Cuba for 50 years. He's, so he's running Cuba. This mafia guy comes, I'm going to open a casino. I'll get a lot of Americans to come. It'll bring money to you Castro Castro says, sure. But they fix the gains. They fix them, of course, because it's mobster and Castro. What do you expect? Transparent blockchain transactions for your gambling. Okay. There's no transparency. There ain't proof of stake. There's proof of Castro, right? This is what it's called. They're a proof of POC, proof of mob, proof of Costa Nostra or whatever the mobs call the Italian mob. So what happens though, and this is advanced game theory and really an evolutionary systems. They scientists call this frequency dependent selection of psychometric traits. So if you have too many people cheat what happens, and this is what happened, a US, but not a senator, sorry, an American businessman goes down to Cuba, doesn't know anything about it. He gambles at this Cuban casino. He loses, I think it was $18,000. Now that's a lot of money in the 1950s. It's a lot of money now for people. But I mean, that's a lot of money. So he also realizes, somebody tells them, yo, those are fixed tables like you, they just stole your 18,000. This dude goes home to California and was friends with a politician who I think at the time was just a senator. He writes him a letter and he says, Hey, these Cuban mofos stole money. I think this is before the Bay of Pigs Kennedy thing. And that senator, don't quote me. I may have the, I think it was Nixon. Nixon was the senator. He's like, do me a favor. These dudes stole my money. So Nixon, I think I'm my president's wrong. You can Google the exact thing, but it was something of this magnitude. He goes to whoever was president. Who was president late 50s? Was it Eisenhower still? Somebody. So the ripped off dude in California goes to a senator. The senator writes to Cuba. Cuba won't give the money back. He writes a letter. My friend lost 18,000. Castro's like, fuck you, it's my money. And this mob guy's like, fuck you, I'm out of it. They have the ear of the president of United States puts an embargo that stops all, I think sales of medical supplies to Castro. And Castro released that that guy got his $18,000 back. But what I was saying is this six degrees of separation kind of concept, the problem with crypto is somebody rips off somebody with the stupid protocol. That person is friends with a senator who has the ear of the president of the United States. And dude, if you study history, I'm a big history. I spent a lot of time reading history. Everybody knows I like books, but they think I read business books. I mostly read history and textbooks and autobiographies and psychology. And dude, all of history is littered with the emotional decisions. Some powerful person makes spur of the moment. So if you ask me, the biggest existential threat, maybe the reason Hillary Clinton issued that statement is her daughter Chelsea went down to Cuba and got lost 18,000. It's a crypto thing. Yeah, sir. It's a bunch of shit coin. And he's like, Bob, I put our inheritance in, you know, in some mean coin with a dog, Dave and, and Hillary's like, I'm angry. And then she called Bill Clinton and Bill Clinton still friends with God knows who in White House, you know, Biden, Obama goes to Biden. Next thing you know, the United States would like to announce the end of all coins named after an animal. It's a special anti-canine bill. It's passed. It's like we are copyright infringement upon the name of whatever. You know, then the US can, they can, they can ban all of these things, but then these companies, they just either they're anonymous a or they're domiciled outside the USA. So what I'm seeing already, it's already been happening for the last four years is the USA is just regulating themselves out of opportunities, innovation, exactly. And totally screwing over everybody that lives there. And as more and more capital flows into crypto and people see what crazy gains are being made and or making the gains themselves, that's what I'm saying. Like I think in the next within this generation, we're going to see a lot of spread from like areas like to coastlines because people can work wherever they want. So go live on a beach in Bali, go live over here. Like why I think it's already happened. Exactly. The digital nomad is another but that's what I said. Hawks and doves, cooperators, non cooperators, defectors, all that when the United States becomes too aggressive going back to the fishing frontier. So here's a horrible country. And here's the rule, you know, here's let's say, for example, the level of aggression a country takes towards our citizenry, you know, here, if you have no aggression by sovereign nation to protect itself, it dissolves. Yeah. If it becomes increasingly bureaucratic and so on and so forth, it comes over the fishing frontier. And now America has probably passed that threshold. That is my opinion. It's gone over the fishing frontier out of optimal state and it's going to end up back to zero. And this is what we call the end of, you know, the fall of Edward Gibbons with his book, famous, you know, anthology, the rise and fall of the Roman Empire. But but empires take a while to fall. But you know, Yeah, for me, the writing is definitely on the wall because if you look at any tech company and you ask them, you know, where would you like to incorporate where would you like to pay taxes? The amount of them saying the USA are really slim to none. You know, maybe they're going to create another like Binance does this, a couple other exchanges, they create their own little, you know, US entities, they can cap, you know, capture the capital in the USA. But I think right now, just because they are so tight on crypto, the main crypto strategy for a lot of these builders, either A, anonymous or B, incorporate somewhere else, figure out your global plan. And then as like an afterthought, okay, now we're going to go to the USA. So I really feel it's already in full effect that, you know, the SEC is just really clamping way too hard and over that efficient frontier you're talking about. Good. I got to go. I have another call. I got to go to the gym hill boxing. Jeff, you working out these days? Yeah, doing a little bit of lighting. You getting that Mayweather hands. Now I'm doing jujitsu. I just started getting my ass kicked but enjoying it. Yeah, I've been doing it for a long time. I got Alex to do it. Alex did it two times. Oh yeah. You got the cauliflower ears coming in yet? Yeah, two times. Alex is already a purple belt. Two times. The efficient frontier for Alex to do things not related to make money moves very quick. So it's like jujitsu. No jujitsu. Alex doesn't like that. Right. Two classes. He's reached the pinnacle. So he's like, I'm done. I don't need anymore. Well, all you need to know are those two moves and then you're yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like, if you're the man who does one kick 10,000 times, so let's just keep doubling down on that one move. Alex is anti Bruce Lee. He's more like the man who does two jujitsu classes is better than man that does two a month for the rest of his life. Absolutely. I don't know better, but richer, but richer. Alex is a single optimized bofo. Well, then you can pay people to do the jujitsu for you. Yeah, bodyguards, all black belts and jujitsu. All right. We were sponsored by atlasusv.com. Go check out Alex and I are co-founders on the projects atlasusv.com. Pick up the USV token. Check it out. Read the white paper. The white papers at tidelopiz.com slash white paper. Jeff, trust swap. Where's the best place for them to learn more about you? I don't have much of a bio, so you could just follow me on Twitter. I put a lot of my thoughts there. A lot of good content on there. And then for trust swap, it's just trustswap.com. Pretty simple. Trustswap.com. We're talking to them about doing some stuff with Radio Shack. We have some exciting projects. Watch for we have, of course, Alex Nickname, even though he's the professor, he's also PS partially stable. So we have a partial stablecoin we're working on in the e-com space. So if you liked the Lambo show, Alex loves. I love it. I love it. That meme in crypto, Alex is like, the name of anything, any crypto podcast show with Tyler Lopez is Win Lambo. So this is the Win Lambo DeFi crypto show. I appreciate you. Leave us a, if you're watching on YouTube or wherever you're watching, leave us who you want us to bring on next. Leave a comment. Who should we go out and interview? I can reach out to a lot of people. I get a lot of the big names to reply to me. So if you have a big name out there, if you, we have a bounty, not a bug bounty, but if any of you bring us a big name, we pay a hell of a lot of money if you bring them on our show. So if you want to introduce us, that's how I met Mark Cuban, one of my followers introduced me to Mark Cuban. And you know, known Mark for six years, big crypto guy now. And so if you have somebody to refer DM me on Instagram, DM me on Instagram at Tyler Lopez, but check out Atlas USB, our sponsor. And it is, as Alex says, the base layer for a whole new way of doing DeFi. All right. Talk to you soon. See you guys. Nice. See ya.