 Hey GovCon Giants family, Eric Coffey here. You're a host and today our guest Frank Spencer III of Aztec Contractors out of El Paso, Texas. We feature Frank and we discuss how he first got started in business where he originally bought his father's defunct construction company but it was just really a name that he bought. We talk about that, how he's working with high-profiling teaming partners. What he did to do is when his first contract, his second contract, the SBA loan he received and much much more in today's episode, I can tell you even after interviewing more than a dozen such contractors, each story is unique in its own merit and what I found is it's almost like a movie script where they are the protagonist in their own story and it's a hero's journey. So if you would like to be a protagonist in your own story and write your own particular script, visit us over at GovConEDU.com for more information. If you have any questions about all or any of the offerings that we have, please please please give us a call 786-477-0477. Stay tuned for today's episode with Frank Spencer III. Hi, good morning. My name is Frank Spencer III, President of Aztec Contractors located in El Paso, Texas. Okay, now Frank, before just before we you know we formally open this up you and I were kind of talking offline and you said you have a son? Yes, a five-year-old son. And what's his name? His name is Frank Spencer IV. Okay. We call him Panchito. Can you explain what's Panchito? Yes, Panchito is the nickname so in Spanish Pancho is Frank and so little Pancho would be Panchito adding the ITO at the end and so they called me Panchito growing up and now you know I call my son Panchito so it's pretty cool. My dad is also Frank and my aunts and uncles they call him Pancho and so they still call me Panchito and then both me and my son look when they say Panchito because you know we're all Panchitos. So we got a bunch of Panchitos. Yeah, a bunch of Panchitos. That's funny. None of Panchos and too many Panchitos. Exactly. I love it. Now you're in El Paso, Texas. Have you always been there? Yes, yes. I was actually born and raised in Pekas, Texas, which is a small town east of El Paso. It's about 235 miles from here. But I've been in El Paso. I started the business here and I've been here about close to 20, 22 years. Okay. Now how big is El Paso? I didn't look it up. How big is it? It depends. If we're population is about 700 to 800,000 but if we're so close to Juarez, which is the border, we would be at including some of the people from Juarez at a million. Okay. Alright. And you went to university. What did you study? So I graduated from, well, I actually went to a military high school in Roswell, New Mexico, New Mexico Military Institute. From the Institute, I played football and I got to represent the United States in Australia, Hawaii. And then I ended up going to Texas A&M University. I did not play, wasn't good enough to play Division I football. But graduated from Texas A&M with a bachelor's degree. I was an English major and a minor in sociology. Okay. And then I had the emphasis of going into law school. So that was the plan. Okay. Okay. That was it. Alright. I didn't see that part. I was missing that part of the story. So I wanted to bring that in. Okay. And then how did you get into construction? So my father owned Aztec contractors. He started it in 1983 in Beckels. Beckels is a small town. So he's a civil engineer and a professional land surveyor. But moving back to Pekas, he had to get into construction to kind of make ends meet. So he started Aztec in 83. It became incorporated in Texas in 1989. And he was primarily doing small homes, residential projects in Pekas. You know, little buildouts here and there. But this was all in the Reeves County area. And so in 2006, I had been in the mortgage industry for several years. And, you know, if you remember 2006, that's when our market tanked. And I really needed, I didn't I needed something else. I needed a challenge. So I remember like it was yesterday was on Thanksgiving Day. I had a talk with my father back in 2005. And I said, look, I'd like to, you know, give this a shot. And I ended up purchasing the name or the company from my father, you know, had been dormant for over a decade. So really just buying the name. And then we kicked off our first job in 2007. It was a private job. And then we kind of the rest of this history, we started looking into how to get different certifications to work with the government. And, you know, we kind of just started tracking along after that. So you found it in 2006. And then now I had the privilege of reading your story. You said your father sold it to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you would think that he would have just said, Hey, you know, change the name, you know, ownership. Now, my dad, you know, that's one thing that, you know, we, we're very close family. And I'm very appreciative for how my father raised us. Every summer we had to work, you know, growing up, you know, we were kids. I remember being out there with him on the, you know, holding up the the rod for surveyors. You know, so it's something he instilled in us at a very early age that nothing's given to you. You got to work for it. And so yeah, I know he he knew I didn't have any money. And in fact, when my first office I office out of his building, he cut out a little carve out a little space for me and, you know, another employee and we got charged rent. We got charged to use his accountant. I mean, it was it was brutal. It was brutal. But looking back, you know, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. It was the right thing that it's the best thing he could have done to show me the value of work, you know, you know, how to take care of things when things start going good. Because, you know, my this my road has been nothing but, you know, a bunch of different obstacles that we had to overcome over the last 14 years. Well, well, no, that's interesting. Did you it was brutal in the beginning? How did you feel about it? Did you he said, dad, why are you making me do this? Or like, how did you feel? Yeah, no, we had those talks, you know, I didn't quite understand how, you know, how I could be, you know, you know, he knew, again, I had no funding. I had no we had no work. In fact, the very first project that we did right out of the gate, you know, we never got paid our fee. We got paid our overhead, but it was based on the sale of these condos that we built. And because the market tanked, we never saw our fee. And so and he was charging me. And so we had one of those discussions saying, look, I need some help. And he's like, you know, I'm this is part of it. He is there always kind of said, look, you have to go through these things. And then, you know, after we finished that job, we had no fee. So we're still working on trying to get banks to back us. And we were bidding jobs. We weren't winning them. And so it's just kind of like, what am I doing? You know, I'm going to throw my hands up in there and say, look, I can't do this anymore. I can't hold. So he did a good job of talking me through these things and saying, look, this is just kind of, you just got to weather the storm, hold, hold, hold, you know, you're going to see it. It's going to happen time. And, you know, like looking back, I mean, he was right. I mean, there's a lot of things that happened to me that kind of to your point, not everybody skyrockets and sometimes those that skyrocket, it just seems like everything's that easy to do. When in reality, it sometimes doesn't work that way. Sort of kind of pay your dues, if you will. Oh, I think that's a great analogy. Pay your dues. I like that. Again, from what I've read, understanding. So in the beginning, you said you didn't have a when you start trying to get into the government space, right? That was a couple years in. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So we got our eight a certification in February of 2009. Okay. And you know, again, I understood, you know, through the SBA, you know, I was one of those guys that the SBA trainings, those seven J trainings, the everything that I could possibly get my hands on, I was going to I was reading about and, you know, going through the motions and trying to figure out how do I how do I get in? How do I do this work? Okay, now I have this certification. And so what's next? And I was very, very quickly, I understood that one of my biggest struggles was going to be the infrastructure. I didn't have the right infrastructure to support some of these government contracts. But I had enough past performance to just at least get the government to give me a chance. And that was where the struggle came in as, you know, the same story, hey, Frank, sorry, you know, great presentation, great capability statement, but you just don't have the past performance, you just don't have the past performance, you just, you know, and it just got old after just, you know, every single time. I'm like, and this was a true story. It was through that contact contract that I got at Homestead, Florida, that I told the contracting officer, I said, Listen, you know, I told if if you don't give me a chance, you're never going to know if I have the ability to perform, just give me a shot. And I told him the story about my dad when he met my mom. You know, he saw her walking on this sidewalk, and he drove up next to her and, you know, he gave up offered his hand out to help her get off of the little ledge she was walking on. He walked her to her dormant. He said, Look, you know, I'd like to take you out. She's like, Well, no, I don't know you. And he's like, Well, you're never going to get to know me unless you give me a chance. So I threw that line. I mean, I threw every line I could just to let them just say, Let me play. Oh, no, just give me a chance to play. Right. That's all I'm asking for. You know, it's interesting about that is we say the same thing. Okay, I don't have past performance. You won't give me a shot without past performance. So how do I get past the not past performance? If no one lets me in? How do I ever get past performance to show you that I can't do it? And it's like, wait, you don't have bonding? Well, I can't get bonding without doing work to show that I deserve bonding. Exactly. Something in there. It's, you know, there's no communication going on. No, and it's a horrible thing. I mean, and it truly, again, you find yourself, you know, I think, you know, every entrepreneur, you know, business person understands the feeling of it's kind of a lonely and lonely island sometimes. And that is so true during that period of time. Because you can't you're stuck, you're in limbo. And it's, it definitely mentally, you know, it gets to you. And that's kind of where the story stems out with GSA, given our first job, that when you were talking about in Homestead, Florida. Now tell I mean, you and I were talking about that that was kind of offline conversation. So now fast forward, you get the 8a in 2009, you're out doing these capability briefings, and then what happens? So, you know, from 2011, so 2009, get the 8a certification, we're hustling, we're we're going networking, we're doing our thing doing capability presentations. And finally, 2011. After numerous trips to Fort Worth District, because again, we're an El Paso and the expense, the investment to fly out there, you know, we always had to spend at least one night there. And, you know, going through my spill with GSA saying, look, please just give me a chance. So finally, I get this email from contracting officer out of the Fort Worth District GSA. And he's like, Frank, I got a project for you. Can you handle it? I said, absolutely. He says, okay, I'm going to email it to you. He didn't say anything about the specifics of the job. He says, you'll get an email. Get the email. I'm all excited. I opened it up. And, you know, looking I'm reading through the scope of work. And then all of a sudden I see Homestead, Florida. And I'm in El Paso, Texas. And this is our first, like, you know, sole source project that had come to Pike. And I'm like, Oh, my God. So I go over to my PM and I said, Hey, we just got our first sole source job. I said, but it's in Homestead, Florida. And he looks at me and he's like, Homestead, Florida, where's Homestead, Florida? So we're Googling Homestead, Florida. We didn't even know. By the way, so for context, it's 1900 miles away. For everyone out there listening to this, I just Googled it. It's 1980 miles from El Paso, Texas. There you go. Homestead, Florida. Homestead, Florida. By the way, something I did not mention to you, right? I'm just going to survive that one quick. Oh, there it is. You're on the screen. Right? Look at that. That's actually where I got my start as a Homestead. Really? I, all of my federal content experience, I built up at Homestead. Wow. I did, I did, I did, I worked in every building there. Oh my goodness. And the same year during the same years. Wow. So yeah, so, so we get this and then we started looking at the scope and then we sort of do a quick, you know, rundown in terms of how big is this job? And so it ends up being like $43,000. So we're in El Paso, Texas. Our first sole source project after two years of being told no, you don't have past performance to do work with the government. And I'm like, Oscar, I said, we're going to do this. I said, I don't know how we're going to do it. I don't know where I said, but we're going to do this. And so I said back, I signed it, I sent it back to the contracting officer. And then I was calling my buddies that I play football with. And I said, look, do you have anybody? I need, you know, I need a painter. I need, you know, a framer, a drywall. And so, I mean, this is, this is how it went down. I mean, then I flew down there, started talking with different subs. It was also high. It was an HSDN room. So security was a big deal. But we put it together. Long story short, we did the job. We didn't make any money, but we didn't lose any money. And six months later, Eric, our GSA gave us a job. I think it was like $160,000, $180,000 job doing the same type of work in El Paso. So, you know, that's the story I like to tell a lot of these eight A's that are coming out and, you know, just hungry to get work. And sometimes those opportunities, there's risks. And but, you know, if they open that door slightly, take it, run with it, bear down, and that's kind of what kicked me off, you know, a $43,000 job. And now we're doing, you know, a $20 million job for the Corps of Engineers on the Fort Worth District. No, that's interesting. I love that because I was recently helping a company, an A&A company, I told them the same thing. And it seems like $40,000 might be the threshold for somebody's agency to test you out, because the one we were going to go to was $40,000. Yeah. And I told the lady, I said, look, you know, we're a $20 million company, and you're giving us a $40,000 project. And she says, yeah, I know, but we've never worked you before and we don't know what you could do and you're capable. So we did that, we negotiated that. And then the second project they gave us was $4,000,000. Nice. So yeah, because you just don't, you never know, right? You just never know. So, well, that's interesting. Now, something else that I've read, I love that story. Do you remember any people you work with down there in Homestead? Oh, no. I know. I don't. Do you remember the contracting person? Yes, I do. Oh, but that was GSA. I never worked with GSA. Yeah, yeah, I do remember the guy. And he's still there. He's still, and we always talk about that story. I always tell him, I said, look, man, you're the only guy that stuck his neck out for me to give him. But he was, he's in GSA, right? GSA. Okay. Now, good. He said, you always talk about, I'm sorry, I cut you off. I'm sorry? I said, you said, I'm sorry, you still talk to him today? Yeah, he's still, he's still a contracting officer there. And, you know, every so often when I do make my rounds, you know, we always talk about that, that, that time. And, you know, I told him, I said, thank you for, for throwing that out there for me. I mean, you threw it way out there, but, you know, we performed, you know, and so, you know, he's become a good friend. Something else that I was reading about your background was you had a hard time getting bonding in the beginning. Yes, yes. Fella, you know, Frank, honestly, a lot of people, and again, I do want to talk about the $20 million contract. But the, the initial, how do we get to the $20 million is so critical for people because again, I think if we all had past performance, bonding, capital and resources, right? We could all do all this wonderful stuff because we have the brain power and the capability, but it's all the other little things that add up to be a big, you know, a lot of things and big. So tell us about the bonding hurdles that you were faced in the beginning. So kind of like the, the, you know, getting started doing federal work and even some of the commercial work to show the mix, you know, the constant struggle from a financial standpoint for a general contractor is one. Again, having the strong financials liquidity so that you can get bonding and continue to grow the business. And it took me six years to find a local bank to bank me. My hometown, which was at the time, I think it's 17,000, 20,000 people, they were banking me to get started. And I said six years in, I finally had a local bank bank me. I had a finally had a local bonding company bond me because I was having to go to an out of town firm to help me with my bonding. And they put some just tremendous hurdles in terms of what it, you know, again, that liquidity. And so I had to get creative and finding ways to get the capital that I needed to demonstrate or give the surety, you know, that warm fuzzy feeling that they were something they could come back to if something didn't go right. And so I had some investors that, you know, again, very expensive. But I had no choice. I had to do this because that was the only way I was going to get started. And so I said six years of just trying to find somebody to back me. And it probably took me another up to 10 years to finally get out of that assistance to do it on my own. And to this day, it's a it's a battle. You know, your backlog and, you know, wanting them to extend you out because you need that other job. You know, sometimes you get in a zone and you're just you're on fire. You're hitting everything you're bidding and you don't want to let go of the opportunity. And you know, you can handle it within your your your team. But there's always those restrictions. And I think that's probably for a contractor in construction. It's it's an enigma. It's it's it's a challenge. It's it's it's always something that's a tug of war. Yeah. Yeah. The article that I read says that you received a seven J long. I did. OK. I did. I went to and so they we call it the Contracting Opportunity Center and then going back to what I did, getting started, reaching out to the SVA, taking all of those trainings, the local some call it P-TAC. This is our Contracting Opportunity Center. They have they're in arms with like the NBDA, all the different types of assistance. The Hispanic Chamber of Commerce was was very influential in helping us as well. But through the Contracting Opportunity Center, I went to them to help me put together a loan package. And Eric, I mean, you probably went through this, too. I mean, I promise I have two file, two notebooks that are probably this big, you know, of of just information that we had to put together to submit to the SBA and we got our million dollar line of credit. Thanks to the great people that were helping me put the package to Mr. Anchondo, you know, they're at the Contracting Opportunity Center. But yeah, no, that was a big W for us. That was a big win to this day. I still have that loan now that that excuse me, that line of credit now that line of credit is two million. Wow. Now, let me ask you this. That was with a small bank, though, right? Yes, sir. So none of the big banks didn't do anything for you. What was that? Any of the big banks do anything for you? No, no, no, I couldn't get. Like I said, I kept all my denial letters. I hit up every single bank in El Paso. I mean, big, small in between. And but so I just I kept those letters because that was my that's my fuel. You know, that that's what kind of helped me push me through. I said, we're going to make this happen. And we did. I mean, eventually. Right. What made you have such tenacity? I think I think early on when I decided to do this, go into this industry and take on the challenge of of operating or running a construction company with little to no experience. My I went through a program called E myth. I don't know if you're familiar with it. I'm not a book. I'm not a book, even if I visit it yet. So I always was one of those guys that it's, you know, it's it's about working smarter, not harder. And being that as an athlete, I've always been involved in team type athletics. And so in this case, football was the one that sort of drove me and you feed off of every single one of the individuals you play with. On your bad day, somebody has a good day. And so there's so much. And so I knew that I wanted to be involved in an organization where I could include different types of personalities, characters, you know, individuals to build an organization. And email sort of helped me organize and really place emphasis on my why. Why? What's my purpose? Why am I doing this? And so I think that that when I defined that and started working to establish that vision. Now, looking, you know, fast forward, 14 years going on 15 this January, I see the culture that we've established. And you know, here we say we, it's about the people that are in this organization. But that vision early on has given me that I know where I need to be and I'm not going to stop till I get there. And that's where it comes from, I think, because there's a there's a reason there's a why behind it. I did not know the email had any type of training like that. Yes, I don't know how it is now. I mean, this was back. I took the I took this year long course in 2007. I did in 2007. So as I'm starting the business, I'm starting trying to figure out how to get a certification, how to, you know, get a bank loan and all the stuff that you go through with startups. I was taking this intensive one year course and you know, I had a coach that would help me and a lot of writing and reading. I don't know how I haven't kept up with them. I'm not sure I found them on here. OK, I found it's really systems. It's creating systems within an organization. And so this is where it really helped me identify again from a management perspective, you have your technicians, you have your leaders and so feeling those gaps inside an organization. I think that really helped me. And plus, I mean, what we do is very systematized and everything changes. Like you can't do a GSA job the same way you do a core job. Doc, the paperwork is different. And I think that that also helped me from the standpoint of, you know, I like to say that doing government, being a federal contractor, the head of the snake is a paperwork. If you can master that, you know, the field work, I mean, it's the same. It's just the administrative part that it can be overwhelming sometimes. I'm actually writing that down. You do a $30 million, you do a $30,000 job for the government. And it's the same paperwork as if you did a $30 million job. You know what I mean? Oh, I love hearing you say that. I tell people all the time that want to pursue smaller opportunities as the paperwork is the same. Yeah. Yeah. I go, the paperwork is, I'm telling you, the paperwork is the same as, I mean, it's just, it's government. So the protocol, everything is exactly the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's just, it's just learning how to read through those documents and find out just the most important things. Because again, you sit down and you look at an RFP and it's like, man, but we're talking about this now, you and I, you know, but remember the first time you opened up that RFP, you're like, holy moly, I got to read all of this. And so it's working with the small businesses. I do a lot of visits with subcontractors that either getting their A to A who need help and because I get it, you get lost. And it's just kind of feeling your way through it. But again, I think that question you asked me prior to this one is, is what, what does that tenacity come from? What does that drive? I mean, you got to, you got to be in it for the right reasons. You got to understand what it is that your ultimate goal or vision is for your business. And that's going to be kind of keep you in line because it's very easy to get lost in this process. How do you, there's obviously, we talked about, there's been ups and downs for your business. What are some of the other things that you've done to manage that? Like personally, internally, when you're, you know, you're dealing with HR issues or nonpayment or slow payment. How have you been able to, to keep, I guess, your stress levels or anxiety levels at bay? Well, if you ask my wife, she's going to tell you that I'm, I'm like a walking ball of stress. But I think that what has helped me is the mentors that I have found throughout my career, be it being involved in different organizations, you know, being the networking. So some of these individuals that I've come across, pass with, you know, you, you have an opportunity to kind of feed them information, get their take on it. Maybe they've already gone through there and they know exactly what you're going through. So I've really searched out different mentors. And now, you know, I'm not saying we're out of it because this is something that's ongoing. You're always going to hit these roadblocks. But now I have some consultants that, that I reach out to that we talk about different strategies and because again, I really want to grow as our vision statement, a, as a premier general contractor in El Paso, Texas. So mentors, consultants, people that you can bounce ideas or feed off of, hear their stories as well, is what has helped me get through some of these times. When you started off, and we talked about these huge RFPs, how did you handle writing the proposals? Because I'm listening to you and you don't seem like a proposal writer to me. No, no. So I went, I went to, like I said, the proposal writing courses that the SBA put on, I watched videos. I mean, you name it. I knew the basics of, of, you know, how to establish, how to write an RFP, how to answer the questions that, that are being asked of you only in the format. Obviously they give you those guidelines and tell you exactly what size font you need to use. But my father, as he's a civil engineer in a professional land surveyor, I was able to learn a lot from his team early on because they were doing government work. And I sort of, you know, took some of the templates that he had and began to create our own. I down the road, I say 2013, I decided to hire a company to help me put a proposal together for a job order contract that we were awarded here at Fort Bliss, and that was the first time that I outsourced our, our proposals. And, and again, from there, you learn more as your team expands, you get a little more depth, we're able to change some of our write ups. And so you just kind of improve every year you're improving your proposals. Yeah, no, that's, that's a good answer. That's a good good answer. Throughout the AA program, did you feel and I get that how did you learn how to navigate the program? Do you feel as though I know you took a lot of the classes and the courses, but how did you feel? Do you feel like you were a success in the program? Yeah, I do. And I tell people all the time that, you know, Aztec is, in my opinion, is the poster child for the way that the program is designed to work. It's a true small business development program. If you use it in its purest form. And we did, we didn't write on anybody's shirt tail. We didn't do anything where we teamed. I mean, I had several opportunities and trust me, if anybody wanted to do a mentor protege was me, because I didn't have the experience. I needed some help. And so I, I mean, I had great companies look out, reach out to us, took several trips out to meet with these large companies, but I never got that warm fuzzy feeling something wasn't right. And I knew that, you know, I needed to, I needed to keep looking, keep looking and keep looking meant that I ended up graduating from the program without any assistance from any large business. And it was just again, that pure tenacity that I just got in. I started, you know, continuing the relationship with the clients that we were doing work for at the time, you know, that contracting officer with GSA. Hey, what else is there? Understanding where the government was spending money, what is their need? Now, Aztec is a season eight company. Give us those mission critical projects that we can help you with it, or either there's a short timeframe, you need somebody who understands the how to get in and out. So it was just kind of one of those deals that you just kept plugging away. And, and, you know, the, the, the, the conferences, which is the network, you know, reaching out to different companies as far as what was, who's doing what. It wasn't really until year, year seven, eight and nine, as we were getting ready to graduate, that we started looking at other ADA firms here locally. We're, I was the president of the ADA Contractors Association for our local chapter here, not the national, the local chapter. And, you know, because if you, if I knew what I know now back then, I mean, it would have been a lot easier to maneuver. And this is why I've spent so much time trying to help other companies understand what it takes to do work with the government and what, what they need to do because I lost a lot of time and I don't want that to happen to another young contractor. You know, I was 26 years old when I started this and I didn't know and nobody would help me, honestly. I reached out to other contractors and, you know, there's always like this me, me, me side of things. And so, you know, just trying to find other people that would help you and really just trial and error, just stumbling on these things or asking questions or knocking on the door and then having it shut in your face. And then you go to the next one is pretty much how my experience was with the government. But when I, when I finally found it and we finally got an opportunity, man, we, we nailed it. We did our job and that's the only thing that has, again, speaks louder than words is that we performed, we performed and we were there. No, that's good. Can you tell us about a time where, you know, the situation is really difficult and you were able to come out of it and overcome it. Maybe it was the loss of an employee. Maybe it was a job where, you know, you had to bring it back on track, it fell off track. Maybe it was a time where, like you said, you had to reach out to the investors for money and it's really expensive. Yeah. So there was this one particular project that we were doing on Fort Bliss, but it was we were a subcontractor to a private entity that had, I mean, I mean, multiple year contract with the government. And it was our first subsurface utility job. And I went in with a subcontractor that, again, was, was, was our prime sub. And long story short, he ended up not performing and we tried to bring in another sub, but we couldn't because they were not vetted. So I ended up having to self perform this project. And it took took the air out of me. I mean, it was a difficult project. And, you know, we ramped up the manpower to get it done. And we got to the finish line and, you know, actually this one, we actually got terminated for convenience. So we get to the very end and we get terminated. But we had got them all the way to substantial completion and, you know, looking back, you know, that job taught me so many lessons. But at the end of the day, it goes back to that tenacity. We didn't quit. We didn't get off that job every day. Saturdays and Sundays, we're out there working. And so they're, you know, in our industry, you know, this Eric is every day, there's a challenge, there's something different that's happening, you know, things go wrong. And it's about what you do to step up and find a solution to make it right. You know, so I think there was another project that we did for the core. It was right in the peak of the winter. And this was a high security office that's tied to the Pentagon. And there was snow getting into their server room. And it wasn't even on our side of the roof that we were working on. But, you know, again, that posed a tremendous amount of challenge and stress on us. Working with the core, with our subs. We were able to mitigate, get the room cleaned up. And actually, we got a letter from the core thanking us for how we approached, how we worked with them to find solutions to some of the issues that we experienced on that particular roof project. So I think it's all about establishing expectations with our clients and taking accountability for the things that pertain to us, but also holding our clients accountable. And that's how you're going to get through the highs and lows of federal contract work. I like that you said that you received a letter from the core acknowledging how you handled those issues. I think that's really important for people to understand, because when I've written up RFPs and particularly, you know, when we're talking about IDIQs, Say Talks, May Talks, they ask, how did you handle, what was the challenge that you had in that project, right? And how'd you overcome it? Yeah, yeah. No, that's absolutely true. And in fact, when we go out and do our capability presentations, you know, and you mentioned this early on in our conversation, is that I like to talk about those difficult projects. I like to talk about the problems that we had, even the problems that we had with the contract vaccine, not contract an officer, but the project manager on a specific job, because sometimes there's personality issues on a job where they're PM and, you know, you're super, just there's not jive in. And so, you know, we like to bring those things to light, because that that that's reality. You know, we all like to say, you know, on time on budget, in reality, it's a fight. I mean, there's so many issues that happen. And if you're able to talk open about those, and that goes back to what I was telling you about being accountable, but holding them accountable to and being an open book, you know, our cards are on the table. We want your cards to be on the table. We're going to help you get through this. And you guys are going to look great. Okay. And we're going to do a good job. And we're going to go to the next one. And that that's kind of how the mentality that we that we go into in a job, but we lead, that's the one expectation I let them they have to know is that we'll lead them. But we need them as well. How do you hold them accountable? What do you say? So, you know, now, back then, we didn't have we have we use a you know, with the the core of engineers, they use RMS. I don't know if you're familiar, you probably are familiar with RMS. But so now we use a construction management software called Procore. Are you familiar with that? I know Procore, yeah. Okay. So I love Procore because it allows you to see at any given time, how you're progressing on the job from RFIs, how many days have been sitting on your lap, how many days have been sitting on their lap, to submittals, your meeting minutes, your agendas, everything is it's a record. And so whenever we're doing our weekly meetings with the owner, you're talking about different activities that either are slowing your job down, could potentially slow your job down, information that you need to progress, anything that has to do with the timing and the delivery of the project. And so once you start putting those things out there, you know, everybody starts to acknowledge them and even putting them back on your on your shoulders. So for example, if we have, if we said we were going to do, you know, put the have a drywall in on the north side of the building that we're discussing complete by X date, we hold ourselves accountable to hit that date. And if for whatever reason we're not in the prior to the meeting in the meeting, we're saying Aztec did not hit that date. Therefore, we're going to hit this day. And so I think that if you're putting yourself out there and they're putting you're also putting them again, they know that when you sit down at the table, you know, things are going to come up and it makes people feel uncomfortable. But I think that that's how they you earn their trust and their respect, because you're not you're not hiding anything. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, it does. No. And by the way, when you see me turn to us, I'm taking notes. I love it. No, I'm taking notes. That makes a lot of sense. And tracking it because like you said, that's the kind of answer I was looking for is, well, how do you show the government that they're not necessarily holding up their end of the bargain? Right? And it's kind of like, you know, you go you go to any government office and you'll I mean, any federal building you've been in, and they'll say, if it's not in writing, it never happened, right? Yeah, see that. And and but you have to do it in a way where you don't you're not threatening them, nor they're threatening you. It's really accountability. And that's why from the very beginning, when you set those expectations with them, so they already kind of know, hey, this is where these these companies coming at this at this level. And I expect you, you know, we're going to expect you to play at that level as well, because we're going to we got a job to do. And that's kind of like that's why I like doing government work, you know, especially like the core to me, doing a core job is is the epitome of a federal contractor. It doesn't get more stringent than the core requirements. Core is tough. That's some of those are big boys. I mean, you don't mess around with the core. You don't mess around the core. They're they're tough. Yeah, they're tough to work with. So tell us you said you're working on a 20 minute project now with the core. Yeah, we are. So again, we were able to team with an Alaskan native company on on a on a total small business set aside project that came out of the Fort Worth district with the core of engineers. And this is it's a it's a remodel. It's a big building. That's the old commissary here on Fort Bliss doing really well on the project. It's been great working with MTNT. That's the the prime on the on the project of the Alaskan native company. Again, a lot of same values on how we operate. We're also working on a $24 million elementary school. So that's on the commercial side of things. So I truly believe, like I said, that Aztec is that poster child for the way the eight a programs designed to work. Doing federal work and the attention to detail and what we've learned in the process. I have I believe or I'm confident that it has prepared us for going into doing large commercial work. Because again, talking about that bar, you know, our expectations are really, really high. And I think that everybody feeds off of that, our subs, the owners, the construction management company. So that's a very, I'm very proud of that, that that both those jobs, I'm proud of all the projects. But I mean, for a small business, you know, a $24 million school and in a $20 million renovation project, that I mean, it's huge for us. That's huge for anyone. I think that's huge for. Yeah, no, I was at the Joseph Torres Elementary School. I'm sorry. Is that Joseph Torres Elementary School? Uh huh. Okay. Yeah, that's yeah, that's so that one's about it. That's a $16 million, the $24 million Archie Durand. Okay, so that's what you're working on now. Next. Yes, sir. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And that Bradley, the Joseph Torres School, that's a unique school, Eric, that is a all concrete structure ground up. I mean, that is a bunker. I think I don't think we have tornadoes in El Paso, but if we were dead, that's where I'm going. Hey, that's that's funny. I wonder why they did that. I wonder why they set up their requirements. Well, and it's a unique school. I mean, I think for 21st century, I mean that that truly is a special school in El Paso. And and it's so cool to be able to do something like that in your community. You know, it's just it's just one. It's the first school project that we've done that we did ground up, plus a remodel of it on a J of an existing school that's right there next to it. So a lot to be said for that school, and we're very, very humbled to have been a part of that and that the district, you know, went out with us on on on being our very first job. Oh, that's that's that's great. That's great. What other types of clients are you working for now? I know you mentioned the core of engineers, the school district. Yeah, so we do work with the school districts here on the government side. We're GSA, the core army, we're currently on an ID IQ, another team in agreement with another ADA firm on an ID IQ. The Navy, we had a contract with the Navy. We no longer have it, but we did it for about five years. We had an office in San Marcos, California, Air Force, CBP. We did some work you were talking about that job you did right there on the border. We're doing these these bit what do you call you know where the CBP guys stand and they cars drive through these were pedestrians. Yeah, we did these booths for them and they were in middle of nowhere in Arizona and San Sava and NACO. And so yeah, CBP, Department of Homeland Security, Army Air Force, GSA core. We don't do we haven't done much private work. But again, that's something that we want to add to our portfolio. The city, state, we're doing some work as well. I'm looking now. So Comstock is near Del Rio, Texas. Yes, it's about five hours from you and up also. But yeah, it's a middle of nowhere. There's nothing there either. There's nothing there. Yeah. There's a funny story about Del Rio. Department of Homeland Security. Yeah, there it is. Well, yeah, you've had a hike, man. No, I know, I know, I know. So I remember we got a call from from Department of Homeland Security and they had these. It was these filters at a fuel station. They wanted these pumps. And I mean, we were like, well, we built stuff and they're like, well, we need somebody out in Del Rio, Brackettville, Carrizozo. And we got to get this job out. And this is September, right? This is the year end dump they need. And I'm like fuel pumps, fuel pumps. And I'm like, okay, we'll get it done. So again, we get out there, knock it out, you know, learned a lot. But but again, it was I felt that we had done work for these clients before they trusted us, they knew, you know, that we would get it done and, you know, come over I water, we figured it out and, you know, made sure that that we finished the mission. No, that's that's great. Tell me it's interesting. By the way, like I said, our story is parallel, man, so much. I mean, that I and that before the recording, everyone, I was telling him that we graduate high school the same time, graduate college the same time. He was doing mortgages. I was doing real estate and we both went into construction when the market crashed. So we have very similar past. It's just that I guess around, you know, 2016, he continued a construction. And I went off and start teaching training into a more consulting work. But even even the fact that you came to Homestead to work, my backyard, and I came to Del Rio to work in your backyard. Yeah, that's crazy. Homestead. I was up in Del Rio. I think that's about 2012. I would have to look at my emails, but I'm pretty sure we're trying to save time. Yeah, I was there. I just remember. I just remember going flying into Miami and I just I think we had Cuban food like every single time every day we were there. Oh, that's what's everywhere tomorrow. I mean, I loved it. I mean, it was so good and then, you know, work in there at Homestead. I mean, it reminded me of like the Navy SEALs because, you know, the guys are choppers or boats, CBP, you know, it was pretty cool to be inside of that facility. And and I was, I mean, I'm not gonna lie, I was scared. You know, I don't know why. I mean, and even to this day, every so often, like if I go into one of the big bases, you know, you get those butterflies, like I feel like I'm going into a football game. But I mean, your first government job, you're you're in this installation, you got to check in. I mean, it's just there's something about it that just at least me and me. I get nervous. I thank you for sharing. I think a lot of people seem to to forget that we are also humans and we get scared. We have fears. Yeah. You know, I mean, I still get nervous when I go to a new facility or new installation that I've never been or never worked at. You know, I worry as well. So thank you for sharing. That's a good point. Yeah. And then like another, you know, advice, you know, tell anybody who, you know, just, you know, be not going out there hustling work or going on to a federal installation for the first time or, you know, has a meeting or whatever, you know, get there two hours early because, you know, sometimes, you know, I remember I was in Denver. And again, I always get there at least an hour before and thank God I did because I had to walk. I took an Uber and the Uber driver didn't have the right ID to get into the base or something. So I had to walk from, from the checkpoint to the meeting place. And then I got there and I was sweating. It was but so I mean, those are just the things that, you know, it helps me get when I get there to a place early, I kind of know the lay of the land, you know, ask questions of where, where, who's who. And so that I mean, I think it just we all go through that, you know, we've always had that horror stories of getting a base and not knowing where to go. You mentioned Procore. You mentioned the A&A Association. What other resources have you used that's helped you along your path, whether it be an app, software tools? Yeah, Procore for sure has changed the dynamics of how we manage our projects. I've been involved with the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce. They've been a huge resource to Aztec on all different types of levels. I'm actually a board member of the Hispanic Chamber now. This will be my first or finishing my first year there. The MBDA, the Contracting Opportunities, PTAC and New Mexico. Just the SBA, you know, just again, the involvement with those organizations being in the know, being in the same room with contractors that you can feed off of, those that are willing to share information. And just knowing who they're talking to will allow you to kind of start asking questions or say, hey, maybe I should ask or look into this organization or what they're looking at. Those would have been the ones that have been instrumental in helping us. Do you buy off Amazon? I'm sorry? Do you buy off Amazon? Amazon? Yeah. Do you shop on Amazon? Yeah. Yeah. OK. So what's a recent purchase that you bought on Amazon that major day? Oh, man, that's a good question for my wife, because I say nobody comes to visit with a visitist. I want to hear the doorbell. I know it's Amazon. That's a true story. Oh, man, what? Well, or something she's bought you. God, man. I don't know. She's always buying stuff. Come on. But I think the one of the things that came in the other day and it's really cool. It's a it's a little a jiggler. It's like a shot glass, but it measures. You know, different ounces. And I've never seen one like this to where you don't have to have like the big old cup. So the glass itself measures the ounce. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was probably really cool. And then the other thing, too, was, you know, I don't know why olive oil, if you put them in those little things that have a little nozzle that they always leak, right? I don't know why you buy like a hundred of them and they're always leaking. I talk about the metal. Yeah. So she bought one that hopefully is will not leak. So I was pretty excited about that purchase. No, I like that. It's it tells, you know, it's normally there's a story always behind it. So that's why I ask the question. It's really cool. We've got some really good answers out of there. Are you a early morning person or late night? No, I'm early. I'm early morning. I'm all I'm a morning person. So I typically am the first person to get to the office. And that's kind of my my quiet time, you know, before everybody comes in. But yeah, no, I'm an early riser. All right. Early rise. No, that's true. That's true. Any other habits, routines that we don't know about? No, I know you're athlete exercise. Yeah, so I just recently got back into the exercise. I hadn't kind of started the COVID axis, what kicked it off, you know, so the exercise is really important to me. It makes me feel better. I'm a better person here in the office. And honestly, just being around, I love coming to work. I love being around my team. We recently purchased a new office. We did the remodel, you kind of see the the brick in the background. So it's a special place. This is this is this is home. There's a lot of meaning behind it. And again, like I said, it's just I enjoy coming to work every day. That's great. I don't know a lot of people that can say that, you know. So that's that's wonderful that you've been able to surround yourself with people that you know, part of your team that you want that you choose. Right. Yeah. No, we got good culture right now. Good culture. That's excellent. I'm going to let you go a couple of things. Where's there a time where you had someone that wasn't a cultural fit? Yes. Yeah, no, we've gone through a series of those. Sometimes they wing themselves out and other times, you know, those are decisions that we've had to make. No, no, that makes that makes a lot of sense. Can you remember the last time you did all nighter? Oh, yeah, I can. It was 2000, 2011. It was an IDIQ that we were putting together for the Army on horizontal work. It was the tank trials. And that's a proposal that we did not elsewhere as we put that together ourselves. And it was in October. I remember it was close to Halloween. And we put in some. I mean, we put in two nights or two days of just, you know, long, long, long hours. Is that a story that now, if you talk about inside? Yeah, it is because now as we built our team and, you know, we just recreate or not recreated, but we restructured our business development department. I see some of the those like moments like, oh my God, you know, this or that. And so I know what they're going through. And so looking back, you know, you try to offer advice, get started early, you know, but sometimes like for me, I work better under pressure. You know, and I was like, I always, I was a procrastinator and I was waiting. Why do I do this? Why do I do this? Why do I do this? Why do I do this? Why do I do this myself? You know? Right. And so I try to offer the advice. But yes, I mean, those are all great memories. Those are, that's part of the development that I think that the A&A program or just being a contractor, it puts you in, you know. Right. I know you mentioned the EMYTH, the book. Are there any other books that you give to your team or associates or even your A&A mentees that you're mentoring? Yeah. So there's, there's several. I mean, I'm a big fanatic of, you know, self-help books. But one of the ones that, and I again, come into work, I always watch, you know, or listen to the, the motivational videos. Again, very much athletic oriented, you know, every year we do a kickoff so this year's kickoff meeting and this is where everybody from the company comes to the office and we had, have you ever watched that HBO documentary? It's Nick Saban and Bill Belichick? No. No. Okay. You need to watch that Eric. I'm putting it down. It's, so the, the, the takeaway of that documentary for my team was do your job. And it's the art of coaching. So it's Bill Belichick, Nick Saban, art of coaching. It's an HBO documentary. Watch that. And I just wanted to get the point across to our team is do your job. And when you say do your job, it's not in a root or a bad manner. It's, if everybody's focused on doing what they're supposed to, then this, this is a fine-tuned machine. It's, we have consistency. I talk about being reliable, predictable and consistent. And if we're all doing those things and again, tweaking and working on our systems of operation. Because we truly are a turnkey operator, you know, we operate turnkey. And so those things are important to me. And, you know, one of the things that sticks out in my mind, it was, I think it was Alabama. Alabama was playing like New Mexico State in Alabama. It's like six seconds left in the clock. New Mexico's at the goal line. And one of the players, I mean, and they're beating New Mexico State like 62 to seven or something like that. And six seconds in, Nick Saban's, you know, call his time out because I think it was his lineman's right guard was lined up incorrectly. You know, and, and to me, that was like, okay, well, some people look, I say, well, six seconds, you're beating him by, you know, 50 points, you know, what's, you know, but he wanted people to pay attention and not lose their head. And I think that that says a lot for kind of what in our situation, businesses in general is if we look at the little things, if we take care of those things, then, you know, when it's when the big things happen, you're there, you got it. And so at least I like, I mean, that's how I look at things. I'm always looking at the little things, paying attention to detail and, and pushing our team to, to try to do better, find the ways to improve. So yeah, you need to watch that. I think you do, you enjoy it. Frank, actually, I was going to ask you to say some parting words, but I mean, that was pretty solid. I mean, I don't know if you can top what you just said. I mean, you know, that's, that was pretty solid, but I really, I like that. We'll leave it at that. I look forward to another conversation with you. This has been truly been a treat visiting with you, Eric. Thank you for what you do for small businesses and allowing those of us that have sort of kind of come through the school of hard knocks an opportunity to share your story. And again, if I could help any, any of the people that, that you've assisted or people have questions, I'd be, be glad to help. And I, because honestly, I, I'm learning. I'm still, I'm learning. Right. No, I agree. I think we're all learning. And one of the things that one of my guests said is that as small businesses, we should be working together, not against each other. We're not the big guy, right? None of us are the big guy. And, and yeah, you may have some wins that I don't have right now, but it could five years from now, I could be the guy that has the wins that you then turn to for assistance. Exactly. And you just never know this, this world of government contracting. So I definitely think that that's a great, I appreciate that. How can people reach you, Frank? What's the best way you want to be reached out to LinkedIn? You know, the best way for me is through email. You know, LinkedIn, what happens is those email looks, the emails get lost and, and, and it's my email, I, every day I'm looking at that so, you know, the email f.spenser at asktechcontractors.com is the best way to reach me. And I'm always responsive to my emails. The LinkedIn, I really feel bad. I got to get better at doing that because I know a lot of people will reach out through that. But that's one kudos I give to Maria because she sent an email through LinkedIn, but she followed up through with an email to the, to my actual email. And, and that's, that's that caught my attention. So. Okay. No, we'll make sure to have that information on our website. When this goes live and we'll keep you on as well. And yeah, no, I did not get to ask all the questions I wanted to, but that's okay. I think, you know, we, this is a great start and this is great. We appreciate you sharing your journey or story. And I'm telling people this is going to benefit so many folks in the future. And I, and I see only positive positivity and positive things happening out of this because so many people are coming into the ADA program that are looking for guidance, resources, help, assistance. And even if you can steer them in the right direction, I think that that's a plus. So. No, absolutely. Keep up the great work and, and I think now more than ever the ADA program. I've seen a decline. Yes. Of ADA contractors on our, on this side. Right. I don't know. I think that it resonates a lot throughout the country. It is. So I really think that those eight days or those individuals that are writing the fence, hey, should we do eight days? Should we not? Or those that are in it and haven't done anything. This is the time that you need to get aggressive. You need to go out there and get focused. Do what you can to get as involved as, as you can in the program. When given the opportunity, do it right. And, you know, keep hitting some, some singles. You're going to get some doubles and then your triples and then you're going to hit a home run. And that's kind of how this thing works. And so that would be my, my, my, you know, sort of last advice, you know, if you will. Thank you, Frank. Thanks so much for coming on today. Thank you. Be safe.