 As-Salaamu Alaykum and welcome to tonight's live show on Imam Hussein TV. In tonight's live show we'll be looking at hopefully something that's going to reach out to the wider audience in particular women, she, sisters, sources and the programme tonight is looking at the image of women in she tradition. Now I've grown up here in UK all my life and there's been a notion as it were growing up here in the mosques, visiting the imambagas, centres that at times we have token figures such as Fatima al-Zahra As-Salaam, her daughter also, that these are at times token figures. We at times hear about their narrations, the crying as it were, but there at times has been a stereotype that women cannot supersede men in knowledge, spiritually as well. And as a result tonight's programme is going to be looking at these notable figures. Are they, is it really a mirage that women cannot progress if Islam claims to be dynamic, culturally aware of all sources, that it claims not to have racism and prejudice? I mean, when I was growing up here there was a huge degree of conservatism placed, segregation, women on one side, men on the other side, so therefore we'll be looking at the credence given or lack of credence given to women throughout the ages from the holy Atul-Bait to write down to the latter day figures such as Shahidah Bint al-Khuda, sister of Ayatollah Baka of Sada, also been a Shahid, and therefore we'll be looking also at the changes involved. Is there a change for Reformation? Is there a change in terms of Ishtar? What can we do? With me tonight, we also have our regular guest, Dr Sayyid Al-Mu'ala al-Pshawani. Salam alaykum. Welcome to tonight's live show. It's been a pleasure again once again having you. Thank you. Tonight's show, hopefully we'll reach out to the wider audience. I will do appreciate if you can call in. The telephone number for telephone calls is 0203 5150 119. You can also WhatsApp your messages on 07 939 917 163. Once again 07 939 917 163. So I don't want anyone thinking, well, there's two bloke's sitting here talking about something that's in relation to just women. So please do voice your questions, your comments, and hopefully we can provide a fulfilling live discussion and an analysis as it were in terms of what's required, what's taken place over the ages as it were saying that. So perhaps you can perhaps talk about, first of all, as I mentioned briefly, I, and I'm sure many other brothers as well, ancestors as well on the outside, have grown up in the West and I'm sure also in the East as well, witnessing well, you go to a wedding, you go to the mosque, there's women on one side, men on the other side. There's no interaction. People from other communities, non Muslim communities, as it were, say, well, you're a little bit backward. What's going on here? You actually say that you have given women rights first and foremost. Yeah. So we'll probably talk about that. Sure. Sure. And then also we would probably talk about the notable figures mentioned in the Quran, i.e. female figures first and then take it through there, hopefully as a journey in terms of what's required and what's going on. Sure. The title is an interesting title because instead of image of woman and Shi'a tradition, I think it should be images of woman rights and Shi'a tradition. Okay. There are being different phases as to the image of the woman within Shi'a tradition. Are we talking about a lady who is in some Shi'a tradition scenes being born from the fruits of heaven? Or are we talking about, for example, the daughter or the wife of a member of the Ali, for example, Ali or Ahlul Bayt background? Or are we talking, for example, of scholars who have sought to serve the religion who are known women of their time? So you don't really have an image. Rather, you have images which you have to consider. Right. Couple that along with a very important notion that has to be discussed and that is how culture affects the way we perceive our gender responsibilities and sometimes not so much religion or how culture has a major role in the way that that tradition is formulated. Right. Remember for a long time, Shi'aism was seen as being Middle Eastern centric, you know, your many of the greatest scholars are scholars from Iraq, scholars from Iran, scholars from Lebanon. And there is a certain culture, therefore, that's associated with the way the scholar may write or may formulate a discussion concerning women. Okay. I remember Khalid, I will follow in one of his works mentioned something interesting, which has stuck with me for a long time. And that is, there is no doubt that 1% of the way the law maker in that particular society provides us with that law is affected by his upbringing or his background. Yeah. And so therefore, even when it comes to women within Shi'a tradition, I think there needs to be an appreciation that culture has an effect on tradition as well. No text can be studied without the context. And no text emerges in a vacuum. Text certainly is emerging at a certain period in the way the woman is perceived. Yeah. Yeah. Therefore, there are a number of images, which we then begin to pick and choose, which to take and which to reject, right, which suits us, which doesn't or which doesn't, which to place on the pulpits, and which to never mention. We may mention Fatima the Zahra Alayhi Salam to a certain point where she is more metaphysically understood than as an exemplar for modern day society. Because that person who may be given the sermon, that's the Fatima he wants to present. Yeah. Because if he presents a Fatima who is outspoken, a Fatima who may be able to give, let's say a lecture in front of the woman of her time and the man and the man and the man. Then that person, even from the pulpit, who's meant to be sincere with the knowledge that they're disseminating, may also be wary of what they want the community to progress in, rather than what could be established as paradigms in early Shi'a. And that's why what you have in the world today is this battle, a battle between a group that sometimes are labeled unfairly as feminists to look at them negatively, who are saying that look, within the tradition, there is enough evidence for us to reformulate our understanding of the prophetic message. Okay. And maybe reanalyze some misogynistic or arrogant patriarchal male shauvinistic ways that we have allowed our culture to superimpose on our communities. Now, then they're fighting a group who are like anyone who's speaking for the reformulation of the rights of women must be part of the Western imperialist foreign policy movement to destroy Islam. I'm sure you've seen that. And therefore bad. And so these two are now fighting each other. Because with these two, what you have is you've got one group of them who are like, listen, we're being sincere. There's Fatima, it's mobahela. She's meeting Christians. It's a political event. So can we not therefore have women in our community in politics and representing the religion of Islam? And then you've got the other side who may turn around to them and say, you people keep speaking out for these things. This is typical of you people who grew up in the West. Ironically, it's not just people who grew up in the West. No, no, not at all. I mean, there are people who East as well. And the East who have seen a lot more oppression in my humble opinion than those in the West when it comes to the rights of education for a female within her tribal system. So yeah, there's a major battle happening now. Right. And remember the image of Islam very much is related to the image of woman. Yeah. What's the stereotypical image of an oppressed Muslim? Muslim woman wearing hijab, wearing a kitchen. It's always children. Exactly. That's the stereotype in a housewife. Correct. Yeah. Now when that's the stereotypical image, therefore, the reanalysis of this image or our understanding of the position of the woman within tradition is fundamental to the way our religions perceive. Yeah, of course. And remember, we don't live in a world where the religions that were the most ancient religions, a number of their followers don't follow them the way they used to. So when they're looking at the way Islam discusses an issue, many are looking with a secular lens, a secular mindset. And therefore, this makes this discussion even more sensitive. Right. But in terms of the if we just start from Allah's book, the Holy Quran, what female figures come to light as it were, you know, that a, women can also take examples from but also be men as well, that, you know, these are highly respected, highly regarded women that are and these messages, these verses, the Holy Quran is reflecting isn't just for women. This is for the world at large. I think there has to be a new paradigm and the understanding of the way we approach the Holy Quran. Firstly, to be just to all creation irrespective of whether it's male or female. Justice is our barometer. Secondly, that Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala creates us both with the ability both with the same essence, same origin. And I think that there's something problematic here for some because within tradition, when you see that Eve, it's created from the rib of Adam or that Eve is the cause of and this can be seen in in even in Abrahamic religions that Eve was the cause of the original sin was the cause of the fall from heaven. When you look in the Quran, God wants justice to be established. One person wants us all to establish justice with one another. Reminds us that he's created us male and female, different races, different tribes in order to get to know one another and that the best amongst us in the eyes of God are the men. No, the best amongst us in the eyes of God are the woman. No, the best amongst us in the eyes of God are the most God conscious and the one who has the most consciousness of their Lord's presence in their life. Don't tell me they're a man or a woman. I created you male and female, different races, different tribes in order that you get to know one another, the best amongst you is the one with the most Taqwa. Once we've established this, then you see certain verses in chapter 33 of the Quran where Allah says the Muslim man, Muslim woman, Muslim man, believing man, believing woman, fasting man, fasting woman, always a reminder. They're both seeking these lofty goals. Then after that, you've got certain women who are discussed. But I don't think discussed even within Shi'ite tradition with the depth that they deserve. Okay. You know, like the Queen of Sheba, for example, God mentioned her. Why don't we mention her more? Yep, during the time of Hazrat Suleiman, half the world is hers. Half the world's Suleiman. She finds her way to the Lord. When she could easily rest on her laurels. You know, she's enjoying the life that she's living. Everyone respects her. The men around her are virtually subservient to her. Like, they won't make a decision without her approving. And, and it's as if God's showing in that one particular story that here's a woman leading men, but remarkably composed. Because what then tends to happen in Shi'ite tradition is women are equal to men, but you have to build a family only. Yeah. Women are equal to men, but you're all emotional, but your emotion is good because it helps with the babies. This is what you know, you'll hear from the from the pulpits a lot. I'm sure you'll agree with me. This is the classic default understanding. It's a precursor. Yeah, as in, and this is I suppose what many of our mothers were raised on. Yeah, you either raised on the fact that you're going to grow to your teenage years. You're gonna have to get married, have kids. And that's your role. And emotionally, because you're not stable, that means that we can't really put you in positions of at the helm. I suppose, as you mentioned, say now, women who have knowledge are seen as being dangerous to many communities. I think Sulaiman, alaihi salam, even when he sees the Queen of Sheba, I can't use the word rattled because I can't disrespect the prophet of God like that. But a prophet of God is just like any other person, you know, sending gifts, bribes, what's happening over here, you know, what's she trying to do? Yeah. Who is this person that the hood hood has come late? You know, the hood hood, the Hoopo bird is meant to come to me on time. Yeah, I'm trying to establish a just system over here. But this Hoopo bird is not here. Where are you? And the Hoopo bird, you know, Sulaiman stories, it's really mystical story where the birds and the gin and everyone's yes, you know, speaking in unison and and the Hoopo bird is amazed. By the way, this woman runs her her state. And then the way she conducts herself with such class, you know, Nabis Sulaiman is a daunting figure because prophet, king, unbelievable kingdom, son of David, you know, it's still there's religions who fight over him, you know. And so you got this lady who the Quran wants to make sure is mentioned. Whether it's in Sola 27, whether it's in Sola 34, the Quran is stressing that she has to be mentioned. Given her due respect as you given her due respect and sat and I think that sometimes in our communities, the first place people go to Mary, mother of Christ. Yeah. But if you're looking for somebody who is actually running the show with such class, you know, there's a natch about her like a queen and one of the best ways in which I believe that she shows her class. When she sees her throne next to Sulaiman and they ask us that you're thrown and she's like, it looks like it's my fault. Yeah, it's this really clark because they never admit. Yeah. There's a sense of a almost female decorum. Yeah. But when you're looking within she a tradition, I don't think there's much about this lady. You know, you may have the Tafasir which talk about the story that's there, but building a paradigm from the queen of Sheba Belqis. Yes. So you've got that there. Then generally within the Quran, you've got snippets of references. Sure. You know, to to certain women in their positions, we mentioned Mary, Asya, the wife of Pharaoh. But I just feel that with Asya Hajj and so on, you've got this spiritual element which I think many have come to the idea that yes, you know what spiritually our mothers are so devoted to Allah, they hold Majalis and so on. But with the Queen of Sheba, you've got this thing where it's like, hold on that paradigm that you always build that God views woman as you must have babies, you're emotional, you can't lead men. No, actually, I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you the story of when her and Sulaiman interacted. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're looking there, I think something can be built there which really hasn't been built. Right. I mean, you gave a brilliant example there. Perhaps, perhaps just an opinion here. She was perhaps the early, you know, day sort of equivalent, maybe not equivalent, but very similar to Bibi Khadija Sulaiman as a businesswoman outgoing, you know, and looking to expand as you know, not in a in a bad way or anything or in a feminist way. So perhaps, as you mentioned, you know, we should be talking about these notable figures and and really strive to take what examples we can take. I think what you see was say the Khadija and with, for example, another wife of the Prophet, such as Aisha, you've got two women who take the helm amongst the men of their time. Right. One emerges with unbelievable success where, you know, they're calling her the pure one, you know, the Princess of Quraish, very highly revered. And you've got another one who many are absolutely baffled until today by her behavior at the Battle of the Camel. Yeah. But no one can reach a conclusion because of how Aisha behaved at the Battle of the Camel. That that means that all you women look at you, you're all emotional. Look at Aisha at the Battle of the Camel. She leads thousands of men to kill each other. Muslims, you know, absolutely butchering each other. 25 years after the Prophet Muhammad died, quite ridiculous in fact, that 25 years after your Prophet died, you're ready to actually fight his family. But that's for another discussion. But what you have here is I find it quite unbelievable that there are certain academic scholars out there who are like, look at Aisha, look at her leadership qualities. I'm not going to go that far and say because a lady led men in a battle, that means that this is the proof for why ladies have to be given leadership positions because that was an absolute calamity. What happened there? You know, but we'll say the Khadija, alaihi salam. No, that's that's that's beautiful. Yes. Naturally, there's a class difference. You can't discuss both in the same in the same way. But we'll say the Khadija, alaihi salam. What you have is that you've got this, you know, real calmness, knowing how to talk to which man who to employ to talk to. Yes. So now we will be looking at probably the next question or next part of the discussion in terms of narrations. But just before we do, I think we have a caller, salamu alaykum. Salamu alaykum. The caller is disconnected. So just reverting back to this brilliant discussion today. Do you think so that there is a lack of narrators, first and foremost, and a lack of narrations, and also leading up from that lack of credence given to women? I think certainly within she a tradition, especially if you're looking at books on the narrators, you'd be hard pressed to find handful, maybe. Yeah, you'll be hard pressed to even find biographies about them. Okay, let's say there's some names of female narrators, but a biography is very hard to come by. Now, there may be different reasons that can be postulated why we don't have that many female narrators. One opinion may be that these female narrators, there was a more of a focus from them on, for example, legal and Quranic discussion. Whereas when you're looking at the idea of how many hadith they narrated, there wasn't so much of a discussion in terms of them being hadith narrators. There were discussions of theirs on law, for example, discussions on tafsir. But it's not like, for example, like how maybe with other schools in Islam, where there's such a focus on a hadith orientated worldview that you're going to have much more of a of a social milieu at the time where being a hadith narrators is a huge thing. Okay, what you have within the Shia community in that early period is that possibly a lot of these women were more discussing legal and Quranic issues amongst their contemporaries. Then you have a second opinion, which may be that hiding their names was vital for their survival. Okay. If you come out with their names publicly, you know, there was a period where the Shia could not come out with the names of some of their men publicly. But just on that point, do you not also think, and correct me if I'm wrong, in terms of hadith, I think there are numerous traditions from the aimah, alaykum as-salam, and the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, that say, and this is this, by the way, as a stereotype goes through all the schools of thought, I think, okay, that the best place for a lady is to be hidden and hidden from a man and be at home and so on and so forth. Do you think that has been taken advantage of as well? Just that, just traditions like that? Yeah, I think there's definitely and therefore, therefore, that, well, you're not gonna hear from me. Yeah. Oh, I think certain cultures, you know, not even abused or destroyed it. You know, there's certain cultures, there were daughters who weren't allowed to go to study at college. Yeah. And whether they lived in the US or they lived in London or they lived in parts of Iraq, for example, the parts of Pakistan and India, they would use certain traditions about women where they would blatantly say that, you know what, this is the hadith. And therefore, you cannot go to study, because no man should ever see you. And therefore, a woman's potential isn't being fulfilled to a degree. Yeah, or therefore, the woman is seen as being the cause of all the sexual deviancy. That the man is not to blame. It's the woman who's to blame for the sexual deviancy. And therefore, what better thing to do than make sure that these women actually get married early. And you know, rear the children, upbringing, and then they've done their holy struggle, right? If you want to call it that. And as I said, there are other traditions as well, which that particular man, and let's not generalize as well. There are also fathers out there who looked at some of the great Shi'i women. Now we may say that we are many names in terms of the biographies. Yes, but we can't deny that if you take Fatima al-Zahra al-Islam out of the paradigm, considering we see her as infallible and so on, people may say, well, we can't relate to that. Okay, you can't say the Zaynab al-Salam in terms of the importance of gaining knowledge, the importance of dissemination of knowledge. You look at, for example, Filzah, the servant of Fatima al-Zahra who for the last 20 years of her life only used to speak Quran. Every verse she used to recite was the Quran. Then you look, for example, let's go a bit later. Let's not name necessarily only those who are related to Ahl al-Kasaa or Ashab al-Kasaa. Let's go a bit later. Hamidah, the wife of Imam al-Sadaq al-Salam. Imam al-Sadaq gives immense praise for his wife, Hamidah. She's not from the Ahl al-Bayt, not Benny Hashim. No, no. But she's the wife of an Imam, but he is so honored to tell the people that if you want to gain knowledge, go to my wife, Hamidah, for example. Sure. Say that we have another call. As-salamu alaykum. Alaykum as-salam, alaykum as-salam, sister. Yes, question please. We're not allowed to mix in mosques. And what his opinion is about that? Integration of men and women in mosques. Yeah, this is culture. And this really may come from the worldview of the resident alim of the mosque. Okay. If the people in that mosque are observing hijab, then there should be no harm in holding programs, lectures, seminars where the men and the women are in the same hall. Okay. Now, discretion of the scholar of the mosque may be that he says that we should seek to prevent any situation where there may be, for example, flirtatious behavior. Let's be frank. Stopping along those lines. There might be flirtatious behavior, too much mixing or interaction. But in this day and age, you want to get close to someone from the mosque, you go to Instagram, Snapchat, Twitter. I tell you, in my day when we were growing up in London, if you managed to speak to someone on MSN, you found it as an amazing success. You know, MSN messenger. That's right. Yeah. I think in your day, you guys were just before MSN messenger, but we used to find it amazing that we could go on MSN and we've got, or I should say maybe others have got a girl's email address or something. And now you're able to get it. But the moulin of that mosque may see that. But once again, there's this always this fear that's there that, you know what, because the woman are in the hall with the men, that means they're going to be the cause of the sexual deviancy that occurs. If we're observing hijab, us men, yes, like we always stress to the woman to observe. Sure. Yeah. And we know that when it first begun the verses, for example, tell the believing men to lower from their gaze. Then after that, it would say. So this is more culture than it is religion. You go to the grand scholars, you sit with them. For example, if you sit with I tell us he's standing May Allah lengthen his life. He'll have men and women sitting in the same room without a partition answering their questions. Right. Yeah. Right. Thank you for that. So then we had as we were continuing, we're saying that Hamidah wife of Imam al-Sadaq al-Islam. Yeah. Okay, going back to the al-Bait ladies. You've got the lady who we're honoring in these nights and many honor and because some may have the opinion that it's in these nights that she was she had passed away and and that is maybe Fatima. And here you've got a lady who is known for her name, narrator of Hadith al-Manzala Ali is to me like Aaron was to Moses, except that there is no prophet after me or narrator of the sermon of Ghadir, narrator of so many of the merits of Ahl al-Bait. Okay. These are all examines of people who are close or in and around the Ahl al-Bait circle. Okay. Then you've got ladies who I still think were able to build real lessons from who were ladies of great respect who can still be mentioned and you can write literature and biographies on them. In my opinion, Somaya, mother of Hamar bin Yasin, the first martyr in Islam. Sure. Asmaa bin Tawmais. Then you've got, for example, even Yazid's wife who speaks out against Yazid and what they had done to Imam Al-Hussein, then you've got, for example, people like the daughter of Roshayd Al-Hajari. Right. You know, so you've got people who are not necessarily from the Ahl al-Bait family, but they are good people. Not just good. They left a legacy behind. Roshayd Al-Hajari's daughter at the time when the Umayyads were rampaging and destroying people's lives stood up against them. Somaya stood up against the Quraish. Yeah. So, we've got that there. Question then is that on this area in particular of knowledge. Knowledge. You know, we tell a lot of the women that yeah, you should do these circles where you do Qur'an Tafsir, for example, and in the Qur'an Tafsir class, gather together and hold your Majalis and so on. Yeah. I don't think that is the highest level that they can reach. And I think if you're looking at Shia history, there are certain ladies in Shia history past and present. Okay. I'm talking post-occultation who are phenomenal in their knowledge. If you're looking at, for example, Fatima Sittil Mashaikh, the daughter of Shahid Al-Awwal. Okay. Shahid Al-Awwal, many in Qom and Najaf will study the work in Umal Damashqiya, the Damaskan Glitterine. His daughter and his wife for that matter, I think she was called Umali. These were phenomenal scholars. These weren't just the daughter of a scholar or the wife of a scholar. No. These were people who were immersed in the study of religion and the sciences of religion. You got also, for example, Sheikh Al-Baha'i's wife. You've got a lady, if I remember rightly and I hope I don't get her name wrong, Hamidah, if I'm not mistaken. Right. And even her daughter as well. She had written a tafsir of the istibsar of Sheikh Al-Fawzi. No one mentions this. These are colossal figures. But because in our mosques, we dumb down a lot of our women too emotional or a lot of our women, you know what? Um your main role is okay but also show them that if they are going out to seek knowledge, they can reach the highest levels of knowledge with the blessings of God. When a lady writes the tafsir of the istibsar of Tawzi, I guarantee you, I guarantee you 40% of the Shi'a out there don't know the istibsar of Tawzi. Includes. And I guarantee you that maybe 80% have never read a chapter of the istibsar of Tawzi. I guarantee you. Take it from me. We'll come to that in a moment. Say it now. There's a question on via WhatsApp. Mariam from Chicago. I love watching your shows. I have a question for the Sayed. It's a very good question actually. Yeah. Why are men allowed to give a lecture, Majlis, in front of everyone? But women are not allowed comma. Can women give Majlis lectures in front of men? Of course they can. Again, cultural, I'm presuming. You see if I'm going to university, I don't care if the professors are male or a female. I want to gain knowledge. You want to gain knowledge. Yeah. Our culture has given that stereotype that it's found upon. Yes. Now, people will say, well, Zaynab was forced to give that sermon in front of Yazid. Um Kulthum wasn't. She stood up and gave one. Sakina Bint al-Hussein wasn't. She stood up and gave one. Yes. Fatima Al-Zar upon the confiscation of FedEx stood up with a group of ladies to go and insist on speaking. Now, okay, someone might say, well, there's a barrier around her and she created a barrier. Yeah. But she created a legacy. You don't need to remain silent. And number two, your knowledge can be destroying those men who are around you. If I now hear that there is a lecture to be given by the woman, my woman in my community, and it's very interesting, you know, when you come to our mosques, you'll notice that if a woman does go up to speak, let's say a fundraising event. Right. You know, these fundraising events, very difficult to speak already. I don't care which speaker you are. Why? Because they always tend to have this habit of putting food on people's table the moment you're speaking. So, you've already got knives and forks and you're trying to concentrate, which no one ever appreciates. And more interesting than all of that is when you've got, when you've got a woman speaking up there and you've got men literally on the front table with their back to the woman. So, instead of turning their chair around, I'm sure you see this in weddings. Very good point. In weddings, you'll have a Moulana who'll go up to speak. There's Moulanas on the table in front. They don't turn around. No. They're facing the audience. But Akhlaq and Shiazim will live for another day. That needs major re-addressing in terms of little bits of Akhlaq because I think we're mastering law and theology, but we've forgotten Akhlaq. Yeah. And a lot of those who mastered law and theology in some cases never were known for Akhlaq. Now, when you're coming here to this lady, this lady is giving a speech. You'll still have the Moulana sitting on his table. Is it that difficult for you, Moulana, to turn around? Can I turn around? Can I actually turn around? I don't think I can turn around because my mic is attached. But it's so difficult for that Moulana to, at that moment, just simply turn their chair and look at that lady. Why? Why, Moulana? For what reason can you not turn around and have a look at that lady? What reason? That's a human being number one. That's a person who's worked there socks off to gain knowledge. Traveled far and wide to gain knowledge. Maybe in some cases we'll give you something to learn. And I always say, when you go to approach any lecture, 70 percent is your attitude, 30 percent is your intellect. If you go with a good attitude to a lecture, you'll learn something. And these people will keep their back facing that person. And I find it disgraceful. And that's the arrogance that then permeates into their sons and sons and sons. There are some mosques that have worked hard. Okay. In recognition of these examples we gave, Sheikh Al-Baha'i's wife, Hamidah, who wrote the Tafseer of the Astab Sahr, you know, Shahid Al-Awwal's wife and daughter. I'll give you another example. If I'm not mistaken, Muhammad Taqil Majlis, you know Muhammad Taqil Majlis and Muhammad Baqir of the Majlis. So Muhammad Baqir of the Majlis always associated with Bihar al-Ahwaad. Muhammad Taqil Majlis's daughter, I think her name was Amina, married Al-Mazandarani. Okay. Famous scholar. Yep. She would in some cases answer questions on his behalf. SubhanAllah. You know, Azandarani is huge. Her dad, Muhammad Taqil, so there are some mosques I have to give credit to. They will always make an effort to say that men or women we can gain knowledge from both. They'll invite both. But there are others until today. I don't know who's going to change that mind. Yeah. So now wonderful insights. Viewers will be just going for a short break. See you very soon, inshallah. Tonight's live show on Imam Al-Sain TV, where we're looking at the image or the images of women in Shi'i tradition. Say now, as-salamu alaykum. Alaykum as-salam. Fascinating insight into tonight's show, I think. I just want to fast forward a little bit because there's a lot of content. Hopefully, inshallah, we can discuss and share with our viewers and hopefully sisters. The point of Ijtahal or Mala-ja, as it were, reaching a level whereby you can actually dissect and provide levels of jurisprudence because obviously it's totally, totally, the Mala-ja system is totally male orientated. Not to say that there aren't ladies who possess that knowledge. But do you think this a change or reformation involved? What are the countering arguments? What if we claim to be dynamic? What's required now? Because this is a quite a... I think it's culture. Again, culture. That stops a woman in Shi'i tradition from being a Marja Taqleid. Right. But there's no law, as it were, from the Ayyama Mas'al-meen to say that... Let's, for example, look at someone, you know, if you look at someone like Ayatollah al-Kho'i, may Allah bless his soul, grand jurist, you know, phenomenal personality. Sheikh Ahmad Mehdi Shamsuddin was one of his shudhans from Lebanon. I think he died in 2001. Another great scholar. Okay, okay. And they have an interesting discussion on this area. Just a bit, just to poise, I don't mean to be rude. We have another caller and then we'll come back to meet Elisa now. Salaamu alaykum. Salaamu alaykum. Very honored to see Mr. Ammar Makshwani. I learned so much from him. Salaamu alaykum. I think it's a bit too... And you know... Sorry, Sayyidna. Just in terms of Ayatollah al-Kho'i student. Yeah, Ayatollah al-Kho'i. He passed away in 2001 you mentioned, yeah. And his shuna, Sheikh Ahmad Mehdi Shamsuddin, renowned Lebanese scholar of... Some repute. Some repute and someone who had studied in Najaf for a great deal of his life and there's a great back and forth on this area. If I go to a doctor, I don't care if they're a male consultant or a female consultant. I just want the prescription, the remedy and what have you. Absolutely. If I go to a lawyer, if the best lawyer in the western world is a female, I don't really care if she's finished law school and she can win any case, that's my main concern. And so what you have is... The question is then posed that if you're studying Islamic law, a man's going to study Islamic law in Qom, and a woman's going to study Islamic law in Qom, both have to start off with the muqaddamat, with the first stage, then Soto, then Bahad Kharij. And then at the Bahad Kharij level, they may have written certain books on tefsir, for example, or they may have given certain hijazes. Why is it that that alim who has written on Osul on tefsir, given hijazes, can still make it to announcing his marja'iya whereas that same contemporary of his. Let's look for example, someone like Nusrat Ameen, renowned female mujtahida. No one ever says she was a marja, say mujtahida. Okay. She reached the level of ijtihad. She doesn't have to do taqleed of anyone. Why couldn't we do taqleed of her? She has reached the level of ijtihad. Is it just because of her gender? And this lady, her daughter, her niece, all of it's a family of scholars, and they made sure that they built an organization where ladies were able to study, and she has 15 volume tefsir of the Quran, and she is a contemporary of some of the most famous jurists in Qom. Okay. Who, I think she was born in, if I'm not mistaken, 1886 and died in 1983. Right. All right. So you can imagine the names of some of the scholars in that period. Yeah. They made it to being known as marja taqleed, whereas with her, even though she's given hijazes, handed out hijazes to scholars, no. Why not? Some of the grand scholars said that there are certain traditions from the Ahlul Bayt that indicate that you should only go to men when you're dealing with legal issues. Right. So if there's a tradition, for example, from Imam al-Sadaq, where he says, go to the rajal of our community when there's a problem between you. So they said, look, he says, go to the rajal, go to men. It seems like what the Imam is really saying is go to our Shi'a when there's a problem between you. Don't go to non-Shi'a when resolving dispute. Or some, for example, may cite a hadith like don't put your affairs in the hands of a woman. Any nation that does that is going to be ruined. Right. Context possibly about Kisra's daughter of Persia ruining the nation, not about Queen of Sheba or other women who done well with their nations. Some might look at books like Nehj al-Balaghah. And if they see a sermon, women are deficient in faith, deficient in intellect, you've seen that naqasat al-akul, famous sermon in Nehj al-Balaghah, women are deficient, women are deficient, women are deficient. And they say, therefore, Aleem Nabi Taalib is known as being a man who's a misogynist. He's, you know, really looks down at women. Nehj al-Balaghah is not Imam Ali's book. You know, Nehj al-Balaghah is the work of Sharif al-Razi. May Allah bless his soul. Right. The two great brothers, we had the scholar, Sharif al-Razi and Sharif al-Murta. So, Shamsuddin has an interesting, I think, back and forth in looking at the fact that when you've got Nusrat Amin, who's passed away, may Allah bless her soul, or you've got someone like Zohra Safati and you've got others in Iran and Qom, ladies who have achieved brilliant levels, and yet we're adamant that, well, socially speaking, she is a woman. So, yes, she's reached the level of which they had, but she should stop there because after that, when you want to come and visit her, and they start bringing up all different reasons, you know, maybe emotional, maybe this or that, this person's work there sucks off to study the greatest manuals of theology and law. Yes, yes. What's wrong if I want to follow her and emulate her? And I think you are seeing a shift that there are a couple of scholars in Qom who have begun to give arguments as to why, for example, a woman should be allowed to announce herself as a merger. Okay, okay. We have two or three questions now. I'll come back to that point, because I just wanted to come to go to that point about the traditions in terms of the validity of who we should follow, i.e., as you mentioned, according to some, it should be through men only. But we'll come back to that. Let me just read out a couple of questions. I'm Mariam Jabal from Norway. The women of Ahlulbaid showed great leadership on how they can be successful business women, outspoken lecturers, excellent housewives and mothers. We have great number of examples from the women of Ahlulbaid on how all of these things can be achieved, all at the same time, but in this day and age, I don't feel we are much respected as women in the community, because we always have to sit at the back of the mosque. That's one point. Men always get the big nice venue. We sit segregated in the mosque, but yet in real life we work in a mixed environment, going back to the point you mentioned. From a mixed environment with women from different cultures. How can we change that and start to give leadership roles to the women in mosques, please? That's the first point. And the other one is, Asalaamu Alaikum, what should be the role of a mother after her son gets married? That's quite key, actually. It sounds very basic. So, what should be the role of a mother after a son gets married? But also, the first question in terms of leadership in terms of... Well, I say to Maryam firstly, you're lucky you can sit at the back of the mosque. There are some ladies who for years were thrown in a basement where they were lucky the whole building didn't fall on them. You know, and that's sadly, what I would say is at the beginning that okay, lack of space and so on, and there are some women who actually enjoy being on the ladies side, away from the gents, because they believe maybe if they want to be, for example, taking their hijab off and sit comfortably with their kids and so on, but I think you'll find a lot of them will say, I want to be sitting face to face with the speaker, so that I'm able to actually interact. Right. And there's a big difference when you have eye contact with a speaker who's making a point rather than on a television screen. But I must admit that there are a lot of mosques now who are gradually recognizing the need for seminars where men and women are the same or the need for, definitely on the first level, a chairwoman and a chairman. Okay, good point. Yes. And inshallah in the future going towards a presidency of a mosque or leadership of a mosque, of a woman and a man. And I think there are a lot of ladies in our communities who deserve a lot of respect for representing the Ahl al-Bait and their followers wonderfully in the world of social work, in the world of economic and political work. So hopefully the Western demographic can set a real example for us there. Yeah. Okay. Questions are coming thick and fast. So the next one was what should be the role of a mother after a son gets married? Then I'll read out another one subsequent to that. Salam. My name is Fatima Shakargi from Croydon. Question. Salam. I went to the Islamic event with a speaker asked women not to recite salwat louder than men because of the rules of hijab. Is this religion or culture? So the first one was the role of a mother after a son gets married. Maybe it's too generic, I'm not sure. The role of a mother after the son gets married is always to be a backbone for that couple. Not just a son. Well, of course not just her son. Not to be a burden on the son where he has to emotionally balance his love for his mom, for his wife. But rather to be someone who's a backbone for them. And many mothers you'll find emotionally try their hardest to welcome the daughter in law as their own daughter. And those who aren't, may Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala open their hearts to be softer. Right. The next question was about ladies reciting du'lud salwat loud or allowed as it were. So the speakers that don't do it? So louder than men because of the rules of his job? So that's what the speaker mentioned. Is this religion or culture? If that's what really happened then people are pedantic. Okay. I'm absolutely fine. Why you just get on with your content if you've got content just get on with it and let's have a lecture. Okay, we have another two questions. Salaamu alaikum brothers. Hoping and praying you are both well. Got a question and hope. Respected Seyed Amar can shed light on this topic. When I go to Pakistan to visit families and I speak to my cousins and they mentioned that they have big dreams of doing well in life such as becoming a doctor, engineer, etc. I mean in a good career. But they are stopped by parents according to them if their daughters are too well educated. Now this is definitely this prominent in the Indo-Pac community. Perhaps not just Indo-Pac. Oh, okay. Okay. Not just Indo-Pac. It happens in Iraqi community as well. Arab community generally. Yep. Yeah. So I suppose he's posed the question. I believe this is all culture. How can this culture be broken? That families will allow their daughters who are bright in education and passionate about working to be allowed to succeed from Ali Kazmi in London. Pakistan has got some of the most educated woman I've ever come across. And has had a woman of the helm which certain first world countries still haven't. Yeah. But at the same time like any country there are certain areas where culture overtakes religion. Mm-hmm. Where people are too extreme in the way they view things. Mm-hmm. Problem is if the Maulana from the mimbara saying to the ladies, don't do salawat loud, how do I expect the ones under the mimbara to be God's gifts on earth for how to look after their daughters in their future? Yeah. Your daughter, she's going to get educated, seeking knowledge is of course obligatory on every male and female. And we should have more confidence in our daughters as being great role models in the way the daughters of Ahl al-Dait were for them. Okay, two questions and then hopefully we can go back to where we were discussing because I think they're coming in quite fast now. As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. My name is Aspart Abdullah Adem from Ghana. Yeah. West Africa. I think our problem we have in Africa towards our women in Shi'ism is the education especially the Shi'ism teaching. I mean holds up for women. Now I don't think he's explained himself that well. What I think he means is- Or she. Or she is, you know, our women in Shi'ism in education, what can we do to promote it? Possibly. So I'm, you know, I'm just really trying to put parts of the question together as it were. It may be- I don't know if they'll enjoy when they go to study in Najaf or Qom. Right. And what about holds up in Africa? Like if we stick to Najaf and Qom. I don't know if someone who's gone there to study Islam is really going to enjoy that environment. Takes a certain type of person to enjoy. Tolerance. Tolerance. Culture. Is there? Tolerance and- In terms of conditions. Not to be, you know- Yeah, I don't even look at the environment or the number of beds in the room. I'm not too focused on that stuff. No, in terms of facilities for example. Yeah, I think, you know, facilities, world view, the way a woman should be, the lecturers imposing their world view on you. Right. I don't know. I don't know how many of these things need to be reassessed. I don't know if it's a particular type of character. Okay. Who can fit into that. And I think some come out as greats and others come out losing their head. Right. Like any religious seminary. Okay, so- I think in Ghana, for example, if they're able to- if they're able to have there's many great scholars we know from Ghana, you know, our good friend, Sheikh Noor, Sheikh Jalil and others. And if they can have some of those need the Hausa in Ghana. Right. The Sha'a to all my, you know, friends in Ghana, I received so many well-wishers from Ghana. I'm doing it. And hopefully one day we'll go Insha'Allah. To Ghana. But yeah, if you can start off your own seminary there, there's no harm going to the Middle East to study. But I think if you know your culture, you know the context of your own legal system and comparison to Islamic law. Yes. Maybe more fruitful discussions. Okay. The last question, just for the moment, we'll take Insha'Allah some more. Salam Ranim Raza, the name. Can you elaborate on working women in hospital, like a female doctor, had to touch na'amahram for examination or diagnosis or dressing of a wound, for example. Also asking questions to na'amahram people and involving in conversation for the benefit of the patient. So I suppose what this person's asking is, is it Jihad? Yeah, well, Islam always says priority is to save one's life. So if you're in a moment where you're saving the life of the human being, there is no harm. Otherwise, then in that situation, as a female doctor, you may want to reconsider who you're allowed to interact with. Right. In terms of, especially if it's going to come to touching and so on. But in terms of, you know, helping people's lives, saving people's lives, operating on people's lives, there's no issues there. I think even if you're going to go to the very conservative level, you know, you're wearing gloves. Yeah. They don't always have to interact with the patient in terms of physical interaction. Sure. Way, you know, and if you do, there may be machines and the way there are ways to reconsider these issues. Inshallah, we'll have a separate program for all the biomedical doctors. Okay. Inshallah. And I'm sure it goes without saying, you know, it's common sense that you're near. You're near is to treat someone and not to, you know, do something else. Mind you, with doctors, many have various insane ears and sometimes some forget their oaths. Yeah. Okay. Just going back to the point that you mentioned about 10 minutes ago, I suppose, was there that when Arlen, perhaps shed light on that Jewish students should be taken or law should be taken from men. Yes. If we can probably just go back to that. Now, I just wanted to, just in terms of the research I was sort of conducting today, we mentioned, you mentioned actually, Bibi Hamidah al-Mosafah, the wife of Imam Jaffer, Sadaq al-Islam. In fact, I came across a quite interesting point today, which probably counters one of the points about that it should only go to men, in that it was actually her who actually introduced Bibi Najma to Imam Mu'tah al-Ghadeem al-Islam, a pious wife. Yeah. Well, that, that I think would be a mum helping out her son getting married and certainly knowing who best was for her son. Right. But I do think that when you're looking at someone like Hamidah al-Barbari, the wife of Imam Sadaq, there's a phenomenal lady. Right. Forget the fact she's the wife, you know, we always stick on this idea, wife of daughter of, they are great. Many times you hear people say Fatima al-Zahra is great because she's the daughter of the prophet and she's the wife of Imam Ali. Fatima is Fatima. She's great. Yeah, that Fedek Sermon is not enough for you to see the spectacular ilm of Fatima. Quran, Hadith, theology, everything, spirituality in one sermon. Yes. I think likewise, but, you know, people, when they look at Fatima al-Zahra because it's always Fatima, metaphysical, born from an apple, from Jannah, from Mi'raj. Okay. So they can't relate to her. So then let's go to those who we can relate to. I said when you're looking at Shahid al-Awwal's wife, his daughter, Muhammad Taqil Majesty's daughter, Sheikh al-Baha'i's wife, Nusrat Ameen, Zahra Safat, others, these are phenomenal scholars who have studied more Quran and law than anyone out there. I'm not sure. Maybe we have to reconsider some of our arrogance in the way that we look at the other gents where we're like, Islam's a religion of rights to women. Islam's a religion of rights to women. Islam's a... But sometimes we're the first to say, but you guys, you know you're emotional, you're just meant to bring babies and you just stick there. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now, just, let's move on to after specifically the period of the 11 holy imams, naturally, you have in my Wali al-Asr, my Mahdi al-Aslam in your Rehba at the moment, what has happened from that period to probably 11, 11, 50 years back to now, we've talked about the system which is unique to show you the school of thought in terms of the mojah system and that there's a need to follow a mojah, i.e. wajib, as it were. But what has happened to the women? Is it just literally collapsed until we fast forwarded up to, for example, only people that I've known and I'm as jahil as I am, you know, just people, for example, like Shahid bin Tal Huda. Yeah. What's happened in between that gap? Sure. Well, if we're going to be frank, Muhammad, we have to admit that God in his worldview mentions lots of men in the Quran. Right. Now, he's decided that all his prophets are men. And that's always the argument back that, look, God had 124,000 messages, they were all men. Yes. And yes, you can always mention Mary and Fatima, but, you know, when you come into the greatest woman, they're four. They're Mary, Fatima, Khadija and Asya and after that. And maybe that was the mindset of society, rather than how God necessarily wanted to set a particular barometer. That the mindset of society was that the woman isn't meant to be at the helm. I think when you're looking in the period of the Ghaybah, gradually you're seeing that even these names that I mentioned because there's someone more known than them in the public sphere. They don't get the plaudits. Okay. The world that we live in today, it don't take you a long time to get to Ghadib al-Ghorabah in Mashhad. You could Skype Mashhad. Maybe now you're going to see more of that. Female scholarship come to the fore. So now we have a call online. As-salamu alaykum. Hello. Hello. As-salamu alaykum. Alaykum As-salam. Alaykum As-salam. Yes. You're cool. How are you today? Alhamdulillah. My question, I have a two-part question actually. My first question is I'm from Edmonton and recently in Maldana here read that the Byzantines Rida was never snatched from her after Shabar Ash-Shul which was never happened. And my second question is my wife is a housewife and is there any recommendation spoke which you could learn Islam at home rather than going outside because she doesn't really have the time but she takes in everything. Okay. So I think the first question was about the snatching away of the Yeah. The snatching away of the veil of say the Zaynah. Yeah. The face veil was snatched away. Yeah. Not the full. No, no. Not the veil on the face veil. And the second part was And I could back it up with so much evidence but I don't want to go into it now. Sure. Because just in case someone says while you said that I can back it up with about five hours of evidence. Yeah. And I think the second part of the question from the brother from Edmondson Canada I think it was from always from just inquired about perhaps what sort of education his wife can be given as it were being a housewife as well you know being away from Hauzah which is a good point actually you know because we're living in those days and times where let's be honest we're either lazy or you know we're just giving that notion that we've got to do this we've got to do that and therefore you've got for example people like you're in Edmondson and if I'm not mistaken you would have come across the name of if not maybe you can look online Sheikh Hassanin Qasem Ali and Sheikh Hassanin who resides currently in Toronto has online courses. Right. For people to study every subject you can imagine fantastic service that he's offering right and if you want I could give the details if they send a message to the what's that Imam Qasem TV team we can send the details but Sheikh Hassanin Qasem Ali in Toronto for the general Canadian areas doing excellent online courses for anyone who wants to come to do that okay so the WhatsApp number once again is 0793 917163 so now we have two quick questions and then we'll go to this point which is quite important actually to actually to reanalyze as it were the effect or jurisprudence versus the principles of jurisprudence so if we just keep that in mind for the moment hopefully if you can possibly just answer very quick questions Asalaamu Alaikum most Shia women do not wear scarf in Europe why what do you think about that that's the first thing um alia rusmi ninks ruslan I'm not sure where she is from salam I work as a carer looking after older geriatric geriatric people sometimes I have to bathe and dress older men who are residents what is the law on this I do wear gloves so I think you've already touched an yeah that's we have our show coming up in terms of the interaction physically on these medical issues so we'll come to that too sure so those two questions yes in terms of the first one people not wearing hijab you know I think there's a lot of shia women out there muslim women who wear and don't wear they're on their personal journey and Allah will judge us exactly insha'Allah insha'Allah so now going back to the point about an analysis or reanalyzing feqh or jewish students versus the principles of jewish students in relation to women yeah what how does that you know what should be noted it's interesting you mentioned you know usul al feqh versus feqh and the principles of jewish women versus jewish prudence and ultimately feqh is our you know human understanding of what could be God's law that means there's gonna be a human element to the way we see the world there's gonna be a cultural element to the way we see things okay there's gonna be hadiths we don't use them to guide people we use them to sometimes back up our own world okay and that's the problem which i feel has to be reassessed right if i grew up in a house where the girls wore hijab like this i'm gonna look for those traditions that back up the way dad said our wives or our daughters should wear hijab okay even though what hijab is socially physically is open to discussion what was happening in medin at the time who was being affected by the hijab what were the ladies wearing what was the climate these are all things that have to be introduced into the usul al feq discussions text and context what is absolute what's relative where is their scope for reform on certain issues or not yeah even a lot more of a Quranic worldview where we bring in more verses of the holy Quran and the way that we're looking at these issues and also reevaluating the traditions that we're taking and which context where they said was their scope for change or reevaluation of them right and insha'Allah in future discussion insha'Allah and insha'Allah i think we've just got a few minutes so i'm just gonna quickly rush a few questions to you now this is i think quite important and i don't think the questions come through so hopefully insha'Allah you should shed some light on this i personally think what should she women do who should they look up to who can they go to these days um you know where can they get personal guidance from and that doesn't mean the obvious such as marriage divorce but in terms of practical living you know i think what we're seeing do they need clubs do they need their own centers do they need sort of you know interactive offices how can they develop themselves if you're looking at London as an example um there is a generation of shia women i would say the two you know mid 20s to mid 40s who i think are yearning for a central base for them and their family to meet on a regular basis and remember the best days of the Ahlul Bayt and the saddest days of the Ahlul Bayt so many centers but i think you've got it's really no man's land generation neither wholly focused on the Arabic not necessarily only on the English having to always protect the interests of their mums wherever they go but also wanting to have a community for their generation and their thought process their interests and i think this is a critical period now where they have to step up i think the men have to also be involved in all of this that's not about having seven eight mosques or others having about or having a place where that whole generation that mainly were born in the 80s are able to congregate with their young kids and the way i think the Khawja community has done so well for example firm rigid structure absolutely i like initiatives like Camp UK okay i like initiatives like Hassan Rajab Ali's camps that he does in the summer right where he's welcoming brothers sisters parents everyone to come and really interact with one another you know i i like these initiatives because ladies are learning from the ladies and gents gents are learning from the ladies and gents you know what i mean so there's a real interaction that generation but that's only for a couple of weeks that's right yeah we need that going throughout the whole year that cohesion and those excuses that you know what it's not really there you know it's a shame that for example imam al-askar is Shahada's on Friday and you'll have you know certain ladies bought up in London in their late 20s in their late 30s who may not go to any centre with their sons or daughters to learn about imam al-askar who's the father of the man they reveal the most yeah absolutely but inshallah we'll work towards rebuilding that okay so in terms of the i mean i can say really what i'm looking to sort of probably sort of pose right at the end is the stop and starts that've taken place we've spoken about cultural differences but do you also think certainly from well during the time of that holy adobe in imam al-askar to possibly you know these last 800 years the munafiqeen bani abbas says bani umayyah have played a detrimental impact in hiding narrations narrators female narrators do you mean men and women men and women yeah yeah yeah i think on the first level that has that has really i think on the first level from the time of imam al-sadaq until the time of imam al-askari there were some really really sad periods for the talibid or the alid line especially the females in some cases in the period of mutawakil having to share one piece of cloth between 10 ladies so even if you wanted to go out there and gain more knowledge or disseminate that knowledge you were already facing very difficult times and then if there were any great ladies of that period a lot of these narrators will not mention them or they mention them a line or two maximum about them but i think many applies to the men i think the women in that period of the ahl al-bayt some of the shi'ab al-bayt there was a great amount of taqiyyah okay and i find it interesting when people i remember someone was telling me that people were saying you shi'ab taqiyyah taqiyyah hey buddy did you ever think why we do taqiyyah it's because of the viciousness of animals like yourselves killing anyone who opposed you that we had to conceal our faith otherwise if islam was in a healthy position after the prophet muhammad passed away a group wouldn't have to conceal their faith islam the religion of peace how interesting yeah yeah well insha'Allah we'll discuss insha'Allah we've got just i think two or three minutes so just a note of thanks as it were from one brother imran Shah he's really enjoying and he wants to give his slums to you wa alaykum as-salam we said that you know how can we bring up our kids especially daughters according to sadafatim as-salam wa alaykum as-salam and respected ladies of Ahlulbayt so that's one thing who wants to say that you are an inspiration thank you and so that's one part and finally possibly talking about any role models in this current period say now that you can possibly mention the mums the mums are but also so perhaps female scholars well like i mentioned earlier you mentioned nusrat i mean yeah nusrat i mean zohra safati for example and now what i think there's a number out there who are really working within the field of of islamic seminaries of academia many go unnoticed they're doing great work they will continue to do great work but maybe we need to give more of a chance for them to come to the limelight but there are so many we can name and it doesn't have to be someone with a great amount of knowledge right the mothers of the generation that is generation x and the one before it who were migrants, refugees whatever who came here the way they brought up their sons and daughters a lot of them deserve a lot of respect and they all should be proud because it's a great generation okay viewers we've finished now with our time is up from Dr. Syed Ahmad Naqshfani and myself salamu alaykum and inshallah we will see you again next week