onaeth ei gael i amre productifasame, yn gynhymru no 10757, yn y mynd i'ch byw ei newid o Grymddo a'r lleidio higiadidau CAB yn yr aig, a oedd eich gennych cyd-dem teithasiau ei chael i'i bobl clywed o beth oeddaeth i ni bobl, i gael ei gael i gael i gyngorol i ddod i gael i gael i gael i gael i gael i gael i gael i'i bobl cyngorol i gael i gael i gael i gael i gael i gael i gael i gael i gael i gael i gael i ond yn ei wydyn i ddifu agedigol. Mr D., mae gennym ni sg Pasteuron? I begin by thanking SNP colleagues and Labour MSPs for their support for the motion that allowed us to consider the paper produced by the social policy team of Angus Citizen at the Vice Bureau and the important issues that are highlighted there. I also want to thank the members who have remained behind to participate in the debate. I say at the outset that I am seeking to highlight the content of the report, not as a means the general actions, the DWP or Westminster of such, but to draw the attention to the serious practical impact that the digital by default strategy is going to have on some of the people most reliant on accessing benefits. Angus CAB's paper, DIGITALLY ENHANSED OR DIGITALLY DISADVANTIGED, lays out very clearly the challenges presented by the UK Government's digital strategy and its expectation that 80 per cent of benefit applications will be completed online However, it is not clear that the DWP believes that this is achievable, given that it recognises that only 30 per cent of benefited claimants would have no difficulty moving to an online application process. In other words, more than two thirds of claimants will encounter varying degrees of difficulty yet within three years, it's the aim to have 80 per cent embracing this approach. I think that I am reasonably computer savvy, although my kids and constituency bwrdigol i'r ddirchildren ac maen nhw'n my fel i amdгоfio sicrhau am gweithbloll y自己 favorbyg i'ch bod b directionol y bydd hafennu arall â writer i c Lianghotted y bi opportunities mae hynny. Mae gennychu dy leidio qor wealth sy'n mynd i dod iPeople those who are disabled are over 65, are in fact the very people who are very least likely to have access to the internet or indeed the ability to use it. And yet, this seems to be disregarded in drawing up the new strategy. Now, of course, this in passing highlights a wider issue, a digital skills deficit, which has spread all throughout Scotland. Only one third of those on a low income in our country have broadband access compared to 56 per cent of comparable households in the rest of the UK. While the issue of the digital deficit is one that needs to be addressed and the disparity between not only Scotland and the rest of the UK but different areas of Scotland has to be dealt with, let's focus for now on the issue under discussion and the UK Government's anticipation that such a large majority of benefit applications will be made online whilst offering no new support to help facilitate that. Understandably, it's this lack of support that concerns Angus Citizens Advice Bureau. Just 35 per cent of Angus CAB's clients believe that they would be able to apply online for those benefits, leaving a large group of people relying on the services such as the CAB provide or their friends or their family to help with applications. Now, from 2011-12, the CABs across Scotland helped clients to complete an average 75 old style paper benefit forms a day. That help may have been required due to technical and confusing language on the forms or issues such as struggling with reading or writing. Those problems will still be there with an online application. For anyone who experiences trouble reading or writing, or for instance the deaf community, where often they do not use the written English language, moving the application process online won't fix any of those problems, it will simply exacerbate them. Not only will those who are already struggling to fill in long complex forms require help to do so, but so will those who do not have readily available internet access or indeed do not know how to use a computer. The digital by default strategy fails to make the application process easier for users. For the majority of the requirements, it just makes it harder. On referencing the deaf community, I have also been told that, in order to reduce costs, the DWP are to be where possible, to telephone inquiants to secure additional information or process applications. It is well-intentioned perhaps, but where does that leave the hearing impaired? The actions of the DWP will undoubtedly pile pressure on local services such as the CAB or libraries that offer internet access, as no further support or funding has been offered to help those services to provide for the requirements, even though the UK Government recognises that they will need extra support. Of course, there is a move across society to have form filling done online, but it is about how you pursue that approach and how you cater for those who will fall through the cracks, surely. By way of example, Angus Council's preferred method of applying for housing benefit or council tax reductions is online, but it also offers a telephone and paper-based service. Revenue and benefit staff are available at four locations to assist with completing applications. By appointment, the service can be extended to take in three other locations. Additionally, officers will, on request, visit people's homes. There is also access to digital skills programmes that are made available ranging from the very basic level upwards. That is a common sense approach. It is a compromise, it is flexibility. Angus CAB certainly believes itself to be under resource to meet the demand, which will undoubtedly arise by virtue of the strategy that is being pursued. Throughout the report, the CAB highlighted previous cases with supportless assertion. It appears that benefits claimants repeatedly are being punished for not having online access. For instance, two Angus CAB clients were sanctioned for not being able to access the jobseekers allowance services, which have already moved online. Even though both clients were vulnerable and had no knowledge of how to use a computer, they let alone apply for jobs online. It is not only the change to the application process that will cause an upheaval for those in receipt of benefits, but it is also the fact that it is being paralleled with the rolling out of universal credit. As universal credit spreads across the country, increasing emphasis is being placed on job searching and applications for those who currently receive jobseekers allowance. Not only will they have to apply for benefits online, they will also have to search and apply for jobs online. That approach signposts everyone to apply online, working with digital applications as the rule, not the exception. Needless to say, Angus CAB have examples of clients who have no access to the internet and very limited access to the telephone. As I highlighted earlier, how are the hearing impaired supposed to cope with applications being discussed or progressed by means of the telephone? I am not saying that the phone approach will not be helpful to some, but the practice still does not entirely reflect the flexibility or the resourcing that is required here. While I accept that moving to an online benefit application process may have its benefits for some and should speed up the process for those who successfully managed to apply, the UK Government's digital by default strategy, with its 80 per cent target, is a non-runner for many. The strategy offers insufficient flexibility for those who will struggle with the online application, although the DWP offers no support to the local services that are bound to experience an influx of people who are struggling with the new application system. For me, that is a badly thought-out strategy. The UK Government has recognised the difficulties that it will cause, yet has not provided adequate means of alleviating those. That needs to change. Otherwise, cynics might wonder whether adopting this approach is just another method of reducing the benefits bill, regardless of the human cost. I now call on Annabelle Ewing to be followed by Jackie Baillie. I congratulate my colleague Graham Dane for securing this important debate this afternoon, and although the debate makes a specific reference to a report published by Angus, CAB and the challenges that are being faced, as far as those who are required to make online benefits applications are concerned. From my work on this Parliament's welfare reform committee, I know that similar challenges are being faced by many benefits claimants across Scotland. What is the key issue here? I would submit that the magnitude of the challenges that are being faced stem from the UK Government's determination to force people to make online applications and to maintain online activity with respect to their benefit entitlement, even in circumstances where the citizens concerned have no or low computer skills or have no access to the internet at all. That flows, as we have heard from the UK Government's so-called digital strategy, which includes an expectation that some 80 per cent of benefits applications will be completed online by 2017. However, Angus, CAB and many other CABs across Scotland have expressed or experienced concern about that as we have heard digital by default approach to the welfare system. Indeed, in the report of Angus, CAB at page 2, I quote, they are concerned that this approach would exclude some of the most vulnerable and marginalised members of society from accessing the very services that they rely upon. Indeed, without at the same time taking or promoting measures to ensure that such citizens are not left offline and behind, what is the efficacy of the UK Government's current approach? How will it in and of itself do anything to help to improve online skills and access? The fact of digital exclusion and the implications that it has for the receipt of benefits to which people are, in fact, entitled has been the subject of discussion at the welfare reform committee. In one area of particular, concerned and a point highlighted in the Angus, CAB report, is that of the impact on those who are required to maintain job search online activity. As the welfare reform committee of this Parliament highlighted in its fourth report entitled, interim report on the entitled new benefit sanction regime, tough love or tough luck, which was published on 11 June 2014. One of the weaknesses in the current sanction system was identified, and I quote from paragraph 6 at page 2, as a failure to appreciate that many people on benefits do not have the necessary IT skills at day 1 to utilise the DWP's universal job match facility or other IT technology. That, indeed, was a point raised during the committee's inquiry. For example, by one parent families Scotland, I quote, they said, issues of digital access are being ignored so that sanctions are being applied to lone parents who do not have access to a PC, do not have broadband or do not have the online skills required by John's Job Centre Plus to meet job search requirements. Also, cost issues have been identified, and again, quoting from this report at paragraph 95, at page 19, Citizens Advice Scotland said, some clients are unable to meet job seeking requirements because they cannot afford the cost of their job search. Often, that is the result of a previous sanction. The question arises as to what support there is to be made available in order to move claimants online. Further to the CAB report from Angus cab, there is reference at page 5 to the DWP having advised that claimants should inter alia, contact their local job centre to get help with claiming online or to get access to the internet, but I have absolutely no confidence that that is happening in any significant way. It begs the question as to where is the safety net for vulnerable people as far as the welfare system is concerned in conclusion, Presiding Officer. Surely, it is time that the UK Government had a rethink, not least in light of its own lamentable track record, as far as the setting up and development of computer systems is concerned. I now call on Jackie Baillie to be followed by Christine Grahame. Presiding Officer, can I start by congratulating Graham Day on securing this debate and for the content of his speech to the chamber this evening? Although he may consider himself computer savvy and techie confident, new phrases I am learning all the time, I merely note that, by his own admission, the people closest to him might possibly disagree. However, let me also congratulate Angus CAB on producing their report, highlighting the challenges faced by online benefit claimants. We do live in an increasingly online world, we pay our bills online, we can get our shopping online, we can make travel arrangements online, but it is not for everybody and we should not lose talking to people face to face. Graham Day is absolutely right to point out the need for alternatives to just doing things online. It is correct to say that the DWP expects people to increasingly make their claims online. Indeed, the UK Government's digital strategy expects that 80 per cent of all benefit claims will be made online by 2017, yet the rate of progress is extremely slow. For job-seeker JSA applications alone, where they said that they would reach 80 per cent by September 2013, just last year, they woefully fell short of that target. That was 10 per cent in March 2011, 19 per cent in March 2012, a long way off from the target that they set themselves. There are a number of reasons for that. First, even the DWP admits that their claimants are less likely to use the internet. 72 per cent of disabled people are online compared to 85 per cent of non-disabled people. 59 per cent of people over the age of 65 are online. That leaves a huge number that are not. Access to online services can often be limited by income. Ofcom found that one in three households earning less than £17,500 had broadband. If you are older, in poor health, have a lower income or less education, you are more likely to be offline, yet those are the very people who make the most use of Government services and will need assistance. The approach that expects all of those who claim benefits are in search of employment to have the necessary IT skills will not only put them at risk of being sanctioned, as other members have described, but further marginalise them within their own communities. There is nothing being done by the UK Government to help to improve IT skills by closing down on alternative means of claiming. That will put extraordinary pressure on public and voluntary services to help people with claim forms. The Citizens Advice Bureau dealt with 19,463 benefit form completions in 2011-12. That is likely to increase, and CABs are not funded to meet that level of demand. It is equally a problem for local authority advice services, because access to computers in libraries may be helpful, but there are challenges there—a lack of privacy, often a lack of support staff, and short-time limits on computers. There are three local authority universal credit pilots in Westumbartshire, North Lanarkshire and Dumfries and Galloway. They are already raising significant misgivings. Councilers in those areas are already warning, and I quote, that online applications must not become the preferred method for accessing the benefit system, and alternative methods must not be made more difficult to force people to go digital. Another said, it takes around 90 minutes to complete an online JSA application form. People cannot fill out a 36-page form on a mobile phone, and many people do not want to upload very personal information on a public computer in a library. There is even a question as to whether the pilots will have had time to be properly evaluated by the time of the introduction of universal credit. The UK Government cannot assume that people will have the skills to access the internet or, indeed, the opportunity to do so. Simply asserting that benefit applications will be have to made online is just not good enough and fails to address the practical barriers faced by many benefit claimants. In coming to a close, it is a wrong-headed policy to try to push people to apply for benefits online. It fails to reflect the reality of people's lives and the impact that it will have on public and voluntary services. I thank Angus CAB again for drawing this to our attention and for Graham Day in bringing this debate to the chamber. Ultimately, the UK Government needs to change their approach to some of the most vulnerable in our society and help them to make claims rather than put artificial barriers in their way. I thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I add my congratulations to Graham Day in securing this debate on a very important topic and, indeed, I congratulate Angus CAB. I agree, Jackie Baillie, what you have said about this being a wrong-headed policy. At this time, when we see an assault on benefits claimants, indeed what to me amounts to a persecution of those who put themselves back on the referendum voters role, now hunted for even historic poll tax, who would want to be a benefits claimant today? Everything is made tough for you, complex forms, often to be completed, as others have said by those least capable of completing them, and, frankly, without the CAB and other advice centres, where would those claimants be? Recently, I confirmed that nearly a quarter of a million Scottish pensioners were claiming pension credit, and even then, one third of those entitled were not claiming, and goodness knows how they were making ends meet. I checked today. Together with guidance notes, the pension credit form runs to 41 pages. You need a PhD in form filling to complete that, and I speak as a woman who found that she was going to get taxed for a van she didn't actually own when she completed her own England revenue tax form. I didn't even get that right, and that was pretty straightforward. How often have you tried to fill in an online form to be told to go back and complete some line that hadn't been completed properly, so I can understand why sometimes it takes 90 minutes? Add to that complexity, the UK Government's strategy that 80 per cent of benefits applications should be completed, as others have said by 2017, and it makes it even more difficult for people. I shall keep to the demographics that Jackie Baillie touched on from the CES report Offline and Left Behind, as it's clear that in the age range, 60 to 74, 59 per cent never use a computer, and at 75 plus that rises to 75 per cent. Think of the pension credits not claimed at the moment and how that would impact. In the Scottish Borders, part of which I represent the age group, 60 to 74, represents nearly 20 per cent of the population compared to the Scottish figure of just over 15 per cent. In Woodlodion, the age group is also higher than the Scottish average. In the 75 plus group in the Borders, it's also above the Scottish average, 9.9 per cent to the Scottish average at 8 per cent. In my patch, some 30 per cent are over 60, and a good ween of them will be entitled to pension credit, and now it's supposed to do this online. Compounding this is internet connection at home for all claimants groups. Just 50 per cent have it in the Borders and similarly for Woodlodion, so they're expected to travel somewhere to publicly access the internet. My question, indeed, of the CES is how is this that 50 per cent is to become 80 per cent, and how is that to be achieved in an ageing population? Frankly, as I've said, I can see that one-third not claiming the pension credit rising, and I can foresee injustices for those who various reasons find using the internet overwhelming. While I support cutting out bureaucracy, this cannot be at the expense of the vulnerable, the elderly, and I consider the UK Government should embark on accessing how difficult accessing the benefits system is just now before imposing another hurdle. In the meantime, the UK Government should simplify those forms for the pension credit. For me, if you have to have working examples which they have on the pension credit form, then that's an admission that your form is too complex for the start. I now call Alex Johnson to be followed by David Torrance. I begin by thanking Graham Day for bringing this report before Parliament with his motion tonight. I can also pay tribute to the work that has been done by the Angus Citizens Advice Bureau in bringing forward the paper that they describe on the front cover as a discussion paper produced by Angus social policy team part of the Angus Citizens Advice Bureau. A discussion paper is vital at this time and very valuable in promoting this debate. As we look at the issue of digital exclusion, it is important to remember that those of us who do have access to the internet and make use of it regularly have a tremendous advantage over others. Many of the things that we buy, some of the things that we sell, many of the services that we access are cheaper if you have access to the internet. It is therefore the case that there is a natural advantage to those of us who can access the internet and consequently a natural and converse disadvantage for those who do not have that digital connectivity. There are a number of reasons why digital connectivity may be a problem, as has been highlighted in this debate already in many of our rural areas. The access to broadband is not all it could be. As a consequence, many of those who live in our geographically most marginal communities will struggle to have access to the internet by any means, having no broadband connection and certainly in many areas having no mobile connection that could substitute for it. However, what we are talking about here specifically are those who are not only excluded by one means or another from the advantages of internet access but also who are now going to be expected to make applications for support by that means. Some of us from the welfare reform committee have had the advantage of going to Glasgow to the place where the pilot is being run and talking to some of the people who are involved. It has been reassuring to some extent. The 80 per cent target that has been placed on by 2017 is, let me reassure you, not a target that will be achieved by simply dropping people off until the 80 per cent is reached. The fact is that if the 80 per cent target cannot be reached, then other means will have to be found to reach those who cannot get online. We spoke to individuals who are responsible for running individual accounts on the pilot and who take the opportunity to look at the online applications that have been taken but also are responsible for contacting those who have failed to complete the form adequately or made some error that requires further contact. In fact, it became fairly clear during that visit that many of those who are responsible for running the pilot on a day-to-day basis understand only too well the disadvantages that are coming along. The truth is that the universal credit when it is fully implemented will actually bring some tremendous advantages for claimants, giving huge flexibility, but they must be able to access their account. That is why I am supportive of those who are expressing grave concern over those who would have an advantage if they could connect online but are unable to do so. I think that the Citizens Advice Bureau has highlighted a key problem and we must start to deal with this at every level. That means finding adequate support for those who can give the training and assistance locally, providing the equipment necessarily if in our libraries then in a much more secure manner, providing the support through local government where it can be effectively funded by some other means and, above all, finding the resource within DWP budgets to ensure that a little spent in the right place results in the savings that they would like to achieve long term. I believe that there is a great deal to be achieved by pursuing this target, but this target must be implemented in an effective and understanding way that produces these results for the benefit not only of the DWP but for the claimants as well. Thank you very much. I now call on David Torrance, after which I will move to the closing speech of the minister. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I thank Graham Dave for bringing forward this motion for debate and to emphasise the importance of the issue that he has raised in doing so. The papers produced by Angus Citizens Advice Bureau highlights the major problems with UK Government's digital strategy and its aims for 80 per cent of benefit applicants to be made online by 2017. Those issues will affect benefit claimants across Scotland as universal credit continues to be rolled out throughout the regions. I am certain that claimants in my constituency will face many of the same difficulties as those encountered by carb clients in the Angus area. One of the most pressing problems facing claimants making their benefit application online is the lack of access to internet. Citizens Advice Scotland found in the 2013 survey of its carb clients who had benefit issues that just 50 per cent of respondents had an internet connection at home. That suggests that almost half of the client surveyed would have to seek alternative access to internet in order to make their claim for benefit online. While some people may be able to rely on friends or family who have a computer, those unable to do so must turn to publicly available facilities. Most local authorities without such facilities in libraries or community centres, however, many of these are limited in numbers as well as in the terms and venues of opening hours. In my constituency, there are internet facilities available in local libraries. However, other than these, options are limited. This is one of the reasons behind the newly launched Olive Branch cafe, which is located in Benicad Church in Cercodi. Olive Branch provides an internet cafe, allowing three internet access access for people in the local community. While it is invaluable to benefit claimants, the service is limited to the current opening hours of the cafe. If these kinds of facilities are more readily available, some claimants may have difficulties in getting to them, which could be due to mobility, reasons of cost or availability of transport. Therefore, internet access remains a major obstacle for many benefit claimants. Practical access aside, many claimants lack the skills and or confidence to use internet. One of my constituents who was made redundant last year after 35 years of working in a manual job, he struggles to use internet due to lack of IT skills and when he found himself unable to perform job searches online, his jobseekers allowance was sanctioned. This is surely a sign of things to come, particularly for the older generation who are nevertheless less likely to possess IT skills of our young people who have grown up in the digital age. CAB's 2013 survey found that 47 per cent of respondents cite skills and confidence as a barrier to applying for jobs or benefit online at age between 45 to 59 and 22 per cent were aged 60 to 74. These factors can make applying for benefits online a very daunting task. Under current UK governance digital strategy, benefit claimants may be sanctioned should they fail to perform tasks online. I have witnessed first hand how some of my constituents have been affected by unreasonable and disproportionate sanctions. One of my constituents who were recently sanctioned due to failing to attend an appointment at his local job centre, despite having notified them in advance that he would be attending his father's funeral that day. Although the sanction was reconsidered and later reversed, my constituent had to face a period of weeks in intern waiting the outcome of his appeal with no income whatsoever. He came to me with no money or food for electricity. Bear in mind that a majority of people in receipt of benefits are some of the poorest in our society and that already they are faced with the impact of billions of Westminster imposed cuts to a welfare budget. The DWP's digital by default strategy is likely to lead to a growing number of sanctions and constantly higher currents of incidents like these whereby claimants end up in dire straits with nowhere to turn for alternative sources of income. It is abundantly clear that the UK Government's target of having 80 per cent of benefits claims made online is completely unworkable and that it is unfairly penalised those who face challenges in using the internet, be it due to a lack of access, skills or health. This is likely to have a knock on effect on other local services which will find themselves under increasing pressure to deal with those struggling to meet the digital demands placed upon them by the DWP. I wholeheartedly support Graham Day's motion and call for a review of the UK Government's 80 per cent target at various opportunities. Many thanks. I call on the minister to wind up the debate. On behalf of the Government, Ms Burgess, you have seven minutes. Like others, I would also like to congratulate Graham Day for bringing this issue forward as a member's debate. I also commend the Citizens Advice Bureau in Angus for their discussion paper. It is an excellent paper and it has highlighted some very particular issues faced by claimants as a result of the UK Government's digital strategy. The digital delivery of benefits is something that everyone who has spoken about here tonight is concerned about. I think that there is absolute recognition of the difficulties that it is causing for many vulnerable people. However, we need to be specific in this because what I find concerning is that the way that the DWP is choosing to deliver the benefits through the digital channel, digital itself is not the problem. Very early on, when this was announced by the UK Government, I raised the issue with Lord Freud in one of my meetings with him that I saw as being an issue that is going to impact vulnerable people. I expected that the DWP would, in some way, provide support and financing to help people to get over the hurdle or get access to the digital equipment and access to computers as well. However, I have said before in this chamber that we are not a Parliament of Luddites, but there is no doubt about it. Digital is absolutely the way of the future. In the future, and now as well, efficient and responsive public services delivered online are what most of us in society will expect and demand. In my colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and External Affairs recently published a digital participation strategy, which commits us to building a national movement for change that works tirelessly to build a world-class digital nation in which everybody, regardless of where they live or the circumstances in which they find themselves, can embrace digital technology with confidence. It sets out the work that we are doing in partnership with the Scottish Council for Volunteer Organisations and Signatures of our digital participation charter to provide courses that will help to improve digital skills, mentors that will give people confidence and financial support to organisations and community groups that people trust to support them on their digital journey. The comprehensive nature of the strategy and the cross-ministerial support it enjoys gives me the confidence that people in Scotland will be better placed than most to acquire the skills and confidence that the modern world increasingly demands. However, where there is a problem is when the DWP is railroading people down a digital route simply to say that we will have 80 per cent of people making their applications digital by default. In many cases, it is not the best option for them. Some of the stories in the discussion paper and from other sources that I have heard across Scotland are quite shocking. We have heard some today and I hope that it is not going to be an indication of how universal credit is intended to be delivered. However, I have to say some of the examples that we have heard, such as Christine Grahame talking about pensioners and David Torrance talking about somebody who is working for 35 years of their life never needed to use digital strategy. To lose your job in those circumstances is a big enough trauma for someone, but to then not be able to claim the benefits that they are entitled to or take part in applications online because they do not have the skills to use the internet is just a double whammy for someone. It is absolutely disgraceful that people have to go through that. Jackie Baillie touched on the point of face to face. There are always going to be people who, no matter how digitally, technophobia or clever we are, digitally advanced we are, will always be people who are going to need the face to face advice. Filling in a form is not just always about ticking boxes. You have to understand the answers that have been put in the form. I can certainly say that from many years in the advice sector, unless the right questions are asked of the individual, had they to fill in the form themselves, they would have done it wrong. They do not always know what benefit they are on, what income they are getting, and just filling that in incorrectly in a form could put them out of getting benefits for some time and then getting all that sorted out. That is people without a means to live. I think that all the members, Graham Day and others have highlighted that the people who are going to be most affected by this are those who are on low incomes, living in deprived areas, having a disability, long-term health conditions, numeracy or literacy difficulties and those who have never had to use a computer. Those are the very people who would expect a welfare state to be there for them. I say to the DWP that those people deserve a benefit system that meets their needs, rather than one that only meets an arbitrary target to get 80 per cent of claims online. I know that this figure has caused some concern, and it is because of the challenges that the Scottish Government is funding a variety of projects that aim to enhance digital skills and improve access. Our welfare reform resilience fund supports several digital projects. For example, the localised support project in five, which is recruiting local people to help build IT capacity and delivering a bespoke community bus to take online services to outline communities. The Shetland rural IT project aims to develop individual ITV skills and their access to the internet throughout rural Shetland. There are obviously very specific barriers in rural areas, some that were mentioned already, but there are also issues in urban areas, particularly in Glasgow, Clyde and Lanarkshire, where we know that broadband uptake is much lower than the Scottish and UK average. We have to remember that many, many people cannot afford to have broadband in their home. For some people, we take it as something that is almost a necessity. For others, it is even more than a luxury. It is just something that cannot even contemplate having that money to spend on it. Jackie Baillie mentioned that for many people, their only internet access is a mobile phone. We all know that nobody could apply for a benefit or fill in a form and a mobile phone. That is why, in some way, we are funding the Glasgow Libraries project, £200,000 over a two-year period, to promote local community-based access to computers, fitting new IT kit, making Wi-Fi available and providing relevant skills and development training. There are some signs, and many speakers have mentioned, that the DWP has now recognised that there will be challenges for many claimants and of the need that they will require assistance to be provided to help them through transition to a new system. We do not question that a digital delivery of public services, including benefits, is something for the 21st century, but what we do question and continue to raise with the DWP is the implementation of that service and the intent of the welfare reforms behind it.