 Today with the bait in is faith harmful and we starting right now Hey, hey, all right. So like I said with debating is faith harmful We have our resident Buddhists on the one side Brunton And we have an atheist on the other side airmen right here. They're ready to go at it Even though it looked like airmen would be the affirmative and he would usually go first We're gonna let Brunton go first just to set everything up But before we start I just want you guys to know if y'all want to listen to more of this stuff They are definitely their links is should be in the description below if you want to check them out on that content and Also before we start I just want to welcome everybody to modern day debates. This is a space to go where reason is all that matters Yeah, you know, whatever your walk of life. It doesn't matter gay straight Atheist it doesn't matter, you know, we just what matters here It's just the ideas. All right, so let's get started Brent, do you want to start us off? Yeah, absolutely And for those of you who don't know me, my name is Brenton Langell I am a playwright Ringo nominated comic creator of Snow White zombie apocalypse second issue was just sent to the printer and I am a Neatrin Buddhist So that's going to be informing a lot of what I talk about so to begin Once the Buddha was wandering when he reached a town and the villagers approached him saying Shakyamuni there are some mystics and priests who have visited us and they explain and elucidate their own doctrines But disparage denigrate denigrate deride and denounce the doctrines of others But then some new ones come and they too speak of their own doctrines and disparage the doctrines of others We are perplexed and in doubt as to which speak the truth and which speaks falsehood and the Buddha replied It is fitting for you to be in doubt for this is a perplexing problem Whenever you assess a teaching do not believe do not go upon what you have been repeatedly told Nor upon tradition nor upon rumor nor upon what is in a scripture nor upon what we can surmise Nor upon axiom nor upon specious reasoning nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over Nor upon another's seeming ability nor upon the Consideration nor upon the consideration. These are the words of our teacher good people when you yourselves know These things are good. These things are not blamable These things are praised by the wise and undertaken and observed these things lead to benefit and happiness Only then enter and abide in those teachings selectively quoted from the Kesa Putja sutra If there's anything that exemplifies both the triumph and the sickness at the heart of the modern world It is the continual erosion and lack of faith That in the zeitgeist and by this I simply don't mean religious faith though since the enlightenment and especially in the last Few decades in the United States in particular We have seen a definite wane in both the power of the church over public life and in Christian belief in particular So much so that it seems to me quite strange That someone could even truly believe in the miraculous events described in the Bible in the sense that they are literally true Science's ability to perform real miracles has certainly undermined the credibility of those who claim historical or from my view mythological miracles as those that relate to God the father and all the angels This is not to say that there are not those who profess to possess great reserves of faith and and Unspeakable unshakable belief in the literal truth of the Bible or the Quran or most frustrating of all recently the literal Historical truth of the Vedas the Upanishads and the Bahá'a Gavad Gita You can find such people quite easily and if you doubt their commitment to these miraculous happenings Don't worry. They'll very soon tell you otherwise in no uncertain terms But that's really not the kind of faith. I'm interested in defending tonight because in truth. It's not really faith It's belief and belief is much easier to find even in the modern world People believe in the constitution or in capitalism or socialism or must most frustrating of all They believe in QAnon They believe in the shrewdness intelligence righteousness of their leaders often despite all evidence to the contrary They believe in their nationality and their race and even their so-called skepticism and rationality And the fact that 9-11 was an inside job and that Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself all of these things they believe And all too often these are simply excuses to abandon compassion and grant oneself an unearned feeling of power Over those they perceive of being too weak and thus somehow beneath them Though it seems paradoxical I would like to put forth a proposition that as faith recedes from the world Unjustified belief does not vanish with it In fact, it seems to me that this sort of belief is if anything enjoying something of a resurgence Which is incredibly disappointing given the recent history of the 20th century and the disasters Of the various religious wars world war one world war two and the holocaust now Those who know me might ask themselves. Why is it that a self-professed anarchist is here tonight defending faith? Why someone who frequently speaks positively about the prospects of socialism and even libertarian communism Might have any good words to say about a concept that is regularly defined by the layman as some version of the active exception Of accepting a proposition to be true without convincing evidence And you might rightly point out that there are some of the more colorful statements to come out of the classical anarchist tradition These are slogans like no gods no masters and the only church with which illuminates is a burning church But what they might not be as familiar with is perhaps the single most famous and influential anarchist in the world Which would be the literary genius leo tolsto Who invoking saint luke famously put forth a proposition that the kingdom of god is within you And this is a proposition that despite my current incredulity towards the popular Conceptions of the christian god along with jesus and all the angels I find nonetheless to be incredibly compelling and in fact most likely to be correct Of religion carl marx famously said man makes religion religion does not make man Man is no abstract being squatting outside of the world man is the world of man the state society The state and the society produced religion It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality Which despite being a practicing buddhist myself, I find to be quite correct along with uh Along with as it seems the famous existential philosopher john paul sarke who wrote Existence precedes essence man first of all exists encountering encounters himself and defines himself Afterwards to begin with man is nothing He will not be anything until later and then he will be what he makes of himself Thus there is no true human nature because there is no god to have a conception of it Man simply is not that he is simply what he conceives himself to be But he is what he wills as he conceives himself after already existing man is nothing else But that which he makes of himself And it might seem curious to you Uh, but I agree with sarke as well The reason I defend faith is that the kind of insane fervent belief that my interlocutor Has such an issue with is not really faith It is in fact a conspicuous overreaction caused by a distinct lack of faith in the adherent Because what is faith? Is it to doggedly insist that everything written in your scriptures must literally be true? And if you don't like it just you watch yourself because the day of judgment is coming And if you reject the truth, oh, then you're gonna get it. And in fact, I have so much faith I won't even wait for the day of judgment to come. I'll smite you myself right here in the lord's name And then you'll know then you'll know that i'm right I will hurt you so deeply that you'll have to admit that jesus is the messiah or that there is Or that there is no god but god and mohammedez is prophet or that khali is your mother Obviously not the person who does that has no faith. That's why they're so rattled by doubts When even the slightest whiff of blasphemy brushes by their nose Whatever someone disrespects the american flag or the constitution or marries outside their rates The point is these people are bewitched They are hypnotized by appearances by stories and symbols and this they confuse with actual reality They confuse a drawing with their mother a scrap of cloth with their closest and most deeply held community And a vapid charlatan with their most honored heroic champion The way humans express actual faith True faith which is in my opinion necessary for our continued spiritual and material success as well as psychological health is by doing it Faith is a muscle It is one that you build through religious practice And it is something that you put into practice in your real life if you do not do that You do not have faith and how do you put it into practice? By making a leap of faith not in regard to a doctrine or a tradition Or an act of superficial reverence to what you might confuse with ultimate reality The way you have real faith Is to make that leap to place your trust in the universe in actual reality To give up power and control and to surrender to it and trust it as you would another As you would another And you say to the world despite how many imminent disasters seem to wait just upon your doorstep Let's see what you're gonna do Or to put it another way Therefore I say unto you be not anxious for your life What ye shall eat or what ye shall drink nor yet for your body what ye shall put on Is it not the life more than the food and the body more than the rain? Behold the birds of heaven They they sow not neither do they reap nor gather into barns And yet your heavenly father feedeth them consider the lilies of the field how they grow they toil not Neither do they spin yet I say unto you that even Solomon and all his glory was not arrayed like one of these But if God doth so close the grass of the field Which today today and tomorrow is cast into the oven shall he not more clothe you O ye of little faith be not anxious But seek ye first his kingdom and his righteousness and these things shall be added onto you Be not therefore anxious for tomorrow And the beautiful thing is that when you say this to the world when you make this active faith when you give up Power and stop trying to control everything and make everything go your way You're also saying that to yourself Let's see what you're going to do And therefore Paradoxically the more you give up power the more powerful you become This is because evolution does not favor organisms that experience reality exactly as it is In fact evolution favors organisms that experience reality in a way that is most conducive to our survival and or reproduction The sensory reality that we all see that we experience through touch taste smell And vision this is to actual reality what your computer interface is to a computer And of course being that we are creatures which can die quite easily Open a vein here You know an artery there and that's all he wrote We often overestimate the dangers that we face and underestimate ourselves and yet within our head within the uh system that evolution has built for us to interact with ourselves and the world around us Everything seems to be ever mounting tragedies yet What I have personally learned by making this active faith more than once and by pushing myself Beyond my limit when I knew that there was no more that I could do and yet I did more When I was sure I would die and yet I continued by doing this I became Far more successful than I ever would have dreamed and this is why people say that faith can move mountains because when you stop Defending yourself constantly when you stop looking and waiting for uh, the disaster that is you're certain is waiting Just around the corner that frees up your energy Ultimately, what faith is what the evolutionary purpose that I believe it serves in humanity? Is the ability to enact a manual override Towards our perceptions because of course our perceptions are imperfect and there are times that we must Reach beyond them. We must exceed our own imposed limits And of course then a mustard seed of faith can move mountains And that is why we find ourselves within this society now with all of uh, it's toil and frustration Devastation depression and fear It is a lack of faith that is eating the west alive and the only way that we can correct our course is to open ourselves up to the world and relearn this teaching that our ancestors knew when they faced down the world Whether there was a leopard waiting for them in the field or a blade of grass Thank you All right. All right. We appreciate that open now Irmin A lot of stuff that you gotta agree with. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was gonna let you solve it I'm saying like When listening to running it sound like a a lot of your worldview is uh, very similar In some cases. I don't want to see how you are Extract out your differences. So go ahead. I'm sorry for it in the rubbing. No, no, no, no By the way, I just want to let you know guys know you guys could interrupt me at any time if I can it's I'm completely open to that. Okay, so it's not rude if you want to interrupt me. That's completely. Okay, okay um I just I just didn't hear a lot of By the way, Brent, you're really good at narrating like, you know, you make things sound a lot very powerful So a good job in that But I didn't hear any I don't know if maybe I missed it, but I heard a lot of descriptions for faith, but Did you give like a definition because I really want to know exactly what we're talking about? Like I heard like it could do this it could do this these are his qualities But then did you um, maybe like did you have an actual definition of what we're talking about here? I think faith is the ability to Place your trust in others and the world as you would a Another person as you as you would like your your most trusted friend Okay, but here's the key here's the important thing Trust based based on what? Like I think obviously having trust in some things and not having trust into other things Obviously, we all agree that it's okay to like it's a good thing for us to be able to trust things, right? That is not the issue It's what that criteria for that trust is that is the difference between I would say, you know It is ultimately it's the ability to override the senses And necessarily like your your own brain and your egos protective instincts So the trust shouldn't probably I would say It might not be best for it to be based on absolutely nothing But at the same time By nature of the ability It must be able to be based on nothing If that makes sense the the ability to Place trust within the world despite what we seem to Perceive despite the danger that we seem to perceive in doing that Okay, so yeah, I believe in making calculated risk. Okay. Um, but again calculated based on what like, you know And also when you're saying overriding our senses, right? Uh overriding our What was that the thing you said? Uh instincts, right? I also agree that our Senses and our instincts and our intuitions are extremely flawed So I think that we need better systems to go beyond that and learn about things and trust in things not based on that But so I agree that we have to go beyond that but again I think You did when you say we have to go beyond that you didn't give us how like based on what methodology you're saying based on I actually gave that at the beginning Um, and it was presented. It was presented as a dialectic. So um, I thought you might have focused more on the negatives, but um in the in the sutra that I um that that I quoted, um, you know The buddha says specifically about how to assess whether a teaching is true or not So do not believe uh, do not go upon what you've been repeatedly told nor upon tradition nor upon rumor Nor upon scripture nor upon what we can surmise Nor upon axiom nor upon specious reasoning nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over All right getting attached to an idea nor upon another seeming ability nor upon the consideration These are the words of our teacher Right. Yeah, so he says then he gives the positive because it's a dialectic So he gives the negative and then the positive Good people when you yourselves know these things are good. These things are not blameable These things are praised by the wise undertaken and observed these things and this is the most important thing These things lead to benefit and happiness only then enter on and abide in them So, but there's no criteria there. It's just saying if you know, there is there is criteria. What is the criteria? um, the criteria there is, you know, like the dalai lama will famously say, um The true test of any religion is the effect that it has on its followers lives Um, it is evidence-based. Yeah, but in a in a way. Yes evidence-based. You cannot say I would give it. I would say it's faith, but I would say it's faith that is informed by Um, what we are able to observe so so For instance faith is same. So you're set your definition. So we're getting fined into some criteria Okay, so the things that we shouldn't rely on I agree with you not an intuition Not just a base of perceptions not based on instinct and not based on old scripture Not based on things that people are you know, um unwarranted authority. Yes, all of that. They agree, right? But when we leave all that I wouldn't understand now where we go to know the things that we know and the things that we trust and which You know the criteria. Okay. So is now you now if we're saying the positive is that Based on evidence you're saying, right? So is your definition of faith is to evaluate things based on evidence? Is that your definition of I wouldn't say entirely but the evaluation of things based on evidence should come into The the the equation essentially Well, once again, so what we have the evidence they're essentially going is so these things are good these things are not blamable So that is the person's own internal Moral intuition what he's applying to there, but also then he goes these things are praised by the y's so expert opinion I thought we're not going to use intuition Um, he didn't say intuition here. He's saying all of these together by the way. No, I didn't say intuition I said, um hang on tradition Okay. Um, so wait. So tradition is part of the negative or the positive the negative. Okay. Good. Good. Yeah Um, let's forget the negative because I think we agree on all the things that we should rely on I think we agree on that. Okay Which is what I was trying to explain the positive for you here So You said like because like these things are good So what he says good people when you yourselves know these things are good. These things are not blamable So that's the first part of the equation But that is there's no criteria. This is just as you know, how do we know? I'm trying to I'm trying to explain what he's saying when he's saying. All right. Sorry What he's expressing with those words is not literally these things are good But what he's saying is is that the person knows Their moral intuition holds that the teachings they they're not detecting any Problem with the teachings with their moral intuition So for instance when someone says oh so in this teaching you should it would be Great one destiny for instance most recently tried to build his moral system and he said Um in my moral system It is permissible to kill someone to protect your property even if that property is just a stick of gum assuming the fight escalates That instantly trips moral intuition. So that's that is a thing that is blamable to murder someone over a piece of gum is always blamable So you're using moral intuition then yeah to begin with but that's not it's not just the moral intuition So this is these things are praised by the wise Undertaken and observed and these things lead to benefit and happiness. So then you have expert opinion Go comes into it, but also the not only is the expert opinion taken in there But also it is practiced and we have seen a Actual benefit and happiness come out of it. So essentially what you have is you've got the individual component You've got the social component And then you also have The more utilitarian components. So if you put all three of those together the result of that Conversation lets you know whether or not to accept a teaching. All right. So there's three things here Moral the first one was moral intuition The second one was expert opinion and the last one sounded like evidence for the benefit of For evidence for the benefit and harm. That's what's the last one Exactly what what they've what the ideas and what the teaching has actually done within reality when put into practice Okay, okay. So the first thing I notice is that this is not what most people mean when they say faith No, and I agreed with that. I don't think it's what most people mean when they see when I say I mean, you would say Usually people who are theologians or if they're Like dealing like it within a mystical religious tradition That's going to be closer to what I defined as faith As opposed to what most lay people would define as faith Which is it seemed like you have your very own personal definition to me Well, everyone has a personal definition of literally everything because language is symbolic and no one's Individual definition of anything is going to be the same as anyone else's All right, quick guys. All right, so I was I was just counting that as your opening. You was actually for clarifying questions Uh, but I don't have any opening. I I'm just you know, I just set that side that time aside for that So we'll go directly into the um into the open open debate right now Yes, uh, let's keep in mind the topic which is is faith harmful now you heard uh brunt to the definition of faith And uh, I know you can also argue faith in general terms. So, uh, if you do want to address that that'd be great Yeah, okay, so when it comes to faith being harmful uh brunt you Is it okay if I just say brunt or yeah, you can say brunt. That's what my friends call me and I consider you a friend Yeah, me too. Um Do you You agree. I think you agree with me that it's better for society to believe in More true things and less false things, right? Well, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, okay. Good. So and we're both utilitarians here um so my view of morality is um I tend to lean more towards the utilitarian side than the deontological but in reality I think all human morality is a conversation between deontological and uh utilitarian elements for instance if you go pure to tell Pure utilitarianism you can justify for instance killing someone and harvesting their organs against their will to save five people Um, whereas what I would say is no you actually can't do that because when you do that you create a precedent for abusing people and therefore once that precedent is created It's going to impact you have a utilitarian argument for why we shouldn't do that then Yeah, I mean I would say I have a humanistic argument The way in my opinion like the way humans tend to actually make moral judgments in reality Is a combination of instinct, uh, which is really their compassion Um alongside deontological rules that seem to work alongside a calculus that What's the likely outcome and in fact, that's really interesting because it you notice it's somewhat parallels the Buddha's definition of what how you evaluate what is a correct teaching. Okay, so we're enough We're we're basically enough. We're close enough to want more people to be happy and less people to be miserable That's basically it right Yeah, okay, so given that it's better for the world and Almost everybody for more people to believe in true things. I think what we what we care about is to Make sure that we are promoting methodologies that coming at For people to come up with their belief systems Methodologies that work methodologies that give you more true beliefs and less false beliefs, right? Yes, I would I would say that though. I wouldn't necessarily say that Western skepticism is a good way to to go about doing that for a number of reasons Okay, let me read that down um Like I mean like tradition the the broad set of ideals that are advanced by for instance the the four horsemen Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins that kind of I do I do have a Um, I do get triggered when people call this western because I do think these enlightenment traditions belong to the whole world You know, I would agree that they do belong to the whole world and you know, the west isn't really even a real thing It's something that was made up for political convenience But uh, I use it because people understand what I mean when I say it, but I'll say so the enlightenment traditions of Rationality that we saw coming out of like David Hume and stuff and that eventually then were most recently re-expressed In in our lifetime by Christopher Hitchens Dawkins Sam Harris And uh, who was the fourth guy? Daniel Dennett Daniel Dennett. Yeah, which is way before that like Carl Sagan um I tend to be a fan of Carl Sagan actually. Yeah, he and he and Alan Watts actually had a lot of uh overlap in what they talked about And I think Alan Watts is probably one of the smartest philosophers In human history. So we're on Russell with the Russian Russell. Yeah Yeah, those guys were like this is nothing new like I know we Because the the four horsemen were in our lifetime, but these ideas always had their champions Certainly. Yeah, they had the champions again not in the not just in the west. They have the champions for hundreds of years or thousands of years in the middle east in Africa and the far east in north and south america like again, this is not These ideas are not they have the champions all around the world You are totally right. And in fact I for there was a fact I can't remember the guy's name at the moment, but there was an african philosopher Who basically came up with like all the ideas of the enlightenment that would be later like expressed by John Locke Like a hundred years before John Locke and I I had that fact memorized for a while Because I knew I was going to be arguing with some neo-nazis and I was like they're going to say nothing Good ever came out of Africa when Africa actually beat us to that I'm discovering more uh, indian philosophers who were arguing these things Um, you know thousands of thousands of years ago, right? So absolutely and the buddhists were in a lot of ways arguing these things I mean you heard what I said, by the way, I said just to be clear I said indians not hindu's okay because a lot of hindus try to claim these people for their own religion But they were they were completely materialistic and they didn't believe in any of that But again, so go on. Sorry. Yeah. Well, I know you've had some issues Like being so sued for what a hundred million dollars now Like yeah, but okay, so here's the thing the three things that you mentioned is as your definition of faith, right? Moral intuition expert opinion evidence for the benefit for the benefit and for the harm The the first part is I it seems to me is going contradicts one of the things that you said earlier because you think like we should override Over our perceptions and now you're saying we should rely on faith and the first element of the Of your criteria was moral intuition. So what happened to overriding our perception? Yeah, it's a good point the criteria there is more for judging a Like whether or not a a teaching is true or false, but it is You know, it is consistent with Buddhist faith as it is practiced. Oh, so buddhism is your criteria. Um, not really buddhism What happened to not relying an old script? Old scripture. Oh, well, the buddhas don't rely on the sutras. The the sutras are there. You can find all teaching them Yeah, but the the sutras are not literally true And and you you'll be very hard pressed to find a modern buddhist who will say that the sutras are literally true Okay, wait, so we're we're changing the elements here. So your moral intuition was It was not moral intuition is basically checking with buddhism to see if it agrees with buddhism. No, certainly not Um, what is it? I'm sorry. So And that's kind of the important thing like about buddhism like Really what I appealed to when I said moral intuition, you'll notice I used the word compassion And I think that compassion is the basis of all morality I I don't think you can build a moral system without compassion if you try to compassion fuels our desire to have a moral system but But again, we the standards that we my compassion is not very good at figuring out the best Like our sense of compassion is very very flawed. It's not at all um Correlated to the level of harm Um, you know, for example, we all know that We feel more compassion for one child starving right next to us than a hundred thousand children starving Far away from the problem with compassion. That's that's dunbar's number. That's the human brain No, but there's many examples like this like I there's many examples like this that shows like compassion We need compassion or else if we didn't have compassion, we wouldn't even be Motivated to have a moral system But when we eventually come up You can be motivated to have a moral person without compassion. I'm sorry continue Yeah, yeah, but again, I'm just saying it would we can but I'm just saying we would The motivation comes from the fact that we have compassion, right? It may it fuels it, right? But I'm saying when it comes to creating that standard that makes the high and most amounts of people Happy and less the lowest number of people miserable We can't rely on our sense of compassion because our sense of compassion Is very flawed when it comes to trying to avoid the most amount of harm, right? I wouldn't try well trying to avoid the most amount of harm Essentially what you're saying is if I'm correct here. So we have a thing called dunbar's number It's been colloquially referred to as the monkeys one example of many flaws Which yeah, but but let me explain. So essentially what you're saying is Is that since humans can only recognize 150 or so individuals as actual people and everyone else gets grouped into an abstract Even though they are just as much people as the 150 people I don't want to really go down to this because we're getting a little bit of track We just agree that there's flaws, right in our sense of our intuition And nothing within this reality is perfect. So obviously there's flaws in everything including our sense Right. So we have to we have to look at the methodology that has the least amount of flaws, right? Okay, so yeah, yeah, we would work to establish a methodology that has the least amount of flaws Right, right. So I'm saying that I'm saying the methodology that I suggest is superior to the methodology that you suggest when it comes to figuring out what's true Right. So like using using critical thinking methods and also the scientific method Has its flaws Right. Just like you said, every method has flaws, but it has proven to be Giving us the best answers the most reliable answers the most consistent answers the best The models for predicting the future in a way that it doesn't contradict other models More than any other system, right? So I think it's danger to the world For anybody to try to promote methods that are inferior to these methods All right, so I I understand that argument, but I think it's fundamentally flawed Okay, and this is because science can tell us how But it can't tell us why it can't provide meaning it can only give us Um It can only describe the world essentially and and make predictions and yes, usually these are correct predictions about the world I'm telling us why all the time, but depends on what you mean by why can you because yeah, well like why something should be valuable like why why why Camu famously said that the most important question in philosophy is um, like why we shouldn't just kill ourselves like okay, but that's uh That's a useless question because there are things No, it's not a useless question. No, no Okay, let me let me explain to you right Um, I mean when it comes to trying to for here's the thing for example, let's say I want to eat Okay, and me and you get together and we try to figure out. Okay. We have a land here We have some seeds here and we want to eat we we don't want to starve, okay And we come up with use the scientific method to figure out. How can we yield the most out of most food out of this land? How do we put how do we plant the seeds? How do we water it? Yeah, come up with all like we don't use faith. We don't call like we don't go based on intuition We don't go like had old scripture. We don't go look at practices of the monks, right? We're just like, okay, look this is evidence-based like look the people that show that here Here's the how you get the highest amount of results for Based on these practices, you're going to get the most amount of food In the shortest amount of time from each Square meter of land. Okay. So use the scientific method to get what you want, right? But then you come in like, hey, hey your method shows us your methodology shows us how to get the most amount of food from this land It doesn't answer this your methodology doesn't answer this question Why do we want to eat? Why do we even desire and not to starve? Yeah, I'm going to show you the thing that this is why this is actually a Good question to ask not not exactly the way that you just asked it But but here's the problem that is and I'm going to say in the broadest sense You've just just described the problem that we're currently dealing with which is global warming Um, what's happening here is technology techne from from the greeks Um, this is a mode of thinking that comes where uh, you begin to see things within your environment Not for what they are But for their utility And the hagel talked about this. Um, or not not not hagel heidegger. Um, it's called the process is called inframing So when we look at the field We inflame the field and we think how can we bring out this field's potential to feed us and to produce as much food as we possibly can Now this is not to say this is this type of thinking doesn't have its place It's very very good for getting these types of results. However, it can also lead to some very very serious disasters that it can't take Uh control of and a big point of it here is right now in the united states. We produce Um enough food to feed everyone in the nation many many times over we throw away 40 and just leave it to rot Okay, but that's not That's not the point. I was trying to get that because but i'm trying to just get you trying to get out But but it but it is the logical extension of the thinking that you were putting that that you were putting forth Without the why without why is life good? Why should we? Sustain our species. Why should we care about other humans? Why should we care about the planet? Why should we not just simply follow our instincts? No, the question here thinks to me the question of why do we want the things that we want? It's an interesting question But it doesn't help us into getting the things that we want. It's basically me saying you're saying armin What's your favorite color? Okay? I'm saying well my favorite color is green. It's not always good to get the things that we want Like if we Okay, I think we have a different understanding what wanting means then. Okay. Yeah, because if you say It's not good to get the things that we want. You're just always good Okay, can you give me an example of when when is it not good for us to get what we want? Uh, okay Just one short example. Sure. Um, it is not a good idea for an alcoholic to get the alcohol that they want Okay, and why? Because they will kill themselves with it Okay, and that's bad for them, right? Yeah, I would say it's I would say the pursuit of pleasure the utility will go lower Well, not even just the utility the utility may be fine Like they they may drink more and more but it deals damage for them and deals damage to the people around them Okay, so they would not want that basically they would lead they would have a society They would they would live in a life that would be miserable that would be less happy It would they would deal They will end up in a situation that is less desirable to them Um, they might well it may or may not be less desirable to them a heroin addict Could honestly have a more desirable situation being constantly high on heroin or molly or something Um, then what they would have but they would still deal damage to their community Okay, and they would hurt the people you're not now you're dealing with the wants of other people at the end of the day What i'm just telling you what i'm just trying to say is at the end of the day It's about what we want Like anything yeah, but you might try to dance around this but this is about what what we and other people want This is it's always it's always the question is Certainly what do we want? But but here's also the thing is we don't really know what we want We only have these things that we think we know what we want when we okay great Yeah, we think we're hearing at what we actually want It's a very good thing to try to figure out, right? I would argue I would honestly argue we can't figure that out Like and we can get closer to that we could always get closer to that we have had revelations of like oh, I thought I thought I wanted this car because Um, I genuinely want a car But now I realize I want this car because of the perception that it creates Among the people who see that I have this car Like you people come to those realizations all the time and they live better lives when they understand what they actually want Yeah, I mean what I would say is the the only ultimately if you follow desire to its logical conclusion The only thing that you can really say that you want is a pleasant surprise Like Well, okay, but here's but we're getting a bit of traffic Of track, uh Yeah, I think it would be on because the the topic is Yeah, but my understanding is that okay, but okay, so you're just describing My point of trying being in that example is that Whatever the reason like you say oh science can't tell us science cannot tell It doesn't that's not the why that I was meaning with it. Yes, of course. Of course. Yeah, I understand that but the thing is that You also say that we can't really answer that question, right? Like oh, why? We can and we So we we we can and we can't There's a number of reasons why because I think ultimately these are value judgments And they they are generated any kind of a judgment is generated within the mind. The issue is is that An over reliance on technological and scientific thinking Leads one into a frame of mind Where they begin to see themselves and the environment not as being inherently valuable in and of itself But as serving a purpose and this doesn't follow that doesn't follow But let me get back to let me we'll get to this one. But um, let's add this other one, right? So given that the why Is basically a subjective thing, right and you really can't have a Final answer on that one, right? Then we have to deal with the part. Well, you can have a higher part Yeah, well, I mean that the part that we have control over is more important for us to figure out the methodology The part that you said when I said we can't add you say we can't answer why Well, if we can't then then there is no methodology that we need to worry about like it's just like it's the answer Well, hey, I'm not seeing how this Okay, I'm just not seeing how this Ties back to faith. I feel like we're because we're talking about the best methodology, right? The best methodology to get the most things that we want, okay? And I'm saying you that your methodology of faith is inferior to my methodology And given that the whole point of Life is to you know, my methodology is not simply faith. It's more that faith is an is an integral component Right. So I'm just saying that's a flawed part of your Method if you get rid of that, you will be better off. Okay. I would I would disagree All right, so I'm in argue that the reason why Uh, faith is harmful is because the methodology like the scientific method produces more Then uh, go for the more reliable method for getting to the truth. Is that is that essentially? Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm in my I'm in my car and I have Getting at my destination and you're telling me like get out of the car I have something else that is better than the car that you're driving it. I'm like you show me what All right. All right. Well, brenton, let me ask you a question brenton so we can get back on topic Are you saying that? So your position is faith is good And and what I want to know is is your version of faith good or is the general accepting terminology Good question by yeah, that's a great question I would say the general accepted terminology of faith that you would read in the dictionary that the layman has is usually bad Um, okay. Good now. I will also say however that the way that faith is actually realized and practiced by many people Without realizing what they're doing Can be very very good Again, that's why I read that quote from mark the the lilies of the field You know, I mean it's been shown in studies that uh people who possess like strong positive religious faith Deal better with stress are less Depressed than those who don't now it can go the other way if you have Faith in very negative things like if you think god is going to punish you every minute that actually hurts you But um, they they tend to have like neurologically speaking um a positive expression of faith tends to um Tends to show a I've seen studies that actually contradict that Well, which study then like how does it? I mean, yeah, I mean we need to we could do that later But it doesn't really matter. I mean we the individuals Um, like again, like you mentioned somebody could be happier on heroin We have to look at the consequences of their Of this to the society as a whole, right? Exactly. Um, and you know, I would say certain things like, you know, various religious wars Terrorism those kinds of things. These are people Again, I I wouldn't call that kind of behavior faith. It's not the faith that I am interested in defending I I would actually ascribe it to an overbeliever Do you not do you not agree? Do you not agree that when most people when they use the word faith? They're basically giving you a Like it's basically their way of saying that I believe in this and I have no fucking reason why I need to obey Can I swear on this channel? Sorry, I I guess so Too late. Sorry. Um Okay, do you do you not agree that the vast majority of people when they when they Use faith is big base. It's basically when they are admitting that they have Zero good reasons to believe in something and when you're asked for, you know, that's just They they perceive they they perceive zero good reasons to believe in anything. Um, but also that just offer faith well, basically So our consciousness, um Tends to focus on negatives more than positives So in that moment like they may actually have lots of good reasons to believe a good outcome will come But they are not perceiving them in that moment because of where their life and their mind is at a certain time Uh, and this again is important. Why this is again, like why faith? I think why humans evolved to have faith Because that's why that's why I think if it weren't if it weren't useful so there's two things either Either they they don't have they believe in things without having zero good reasons to believe in it Or they have good reasons and they fail to communicate it And they have good reason well to perceive it Or they feel okay, they perceive it. Okay. So in both of these examples getting rid of faith would be better because if you get rid of faith then people will be um Good be looking for reasons for their for believing anything. Let me let me and I you know, let me finish. Let me finish People if you get rid of faith in this the first situation You would actually motivate people to actually have reasons for the things that they believe in the second situations If they do have reasons then they don't perceive it If you get rid of faith now you are helping people to actually now start perceiving And the reasoning behind the things that they believe in in both situations removing faith will Improve the belief system that a person has only if someone has perfect consciousness that can accurately perceive reality Which we know they don't and can't so no, it's not about perfection. It's about getting closer to reality No, it's not about absolute reality. Yeah, right But whether it's about absolute reality or not. We know that human brains are flawed in this way Um, but it's about having less flaws. It's not about getting rid of flaws entirely, but you can't you you're essentially prescribing a solution that doesn't actually fix the problem. Uh, what I'll compare this to is okay, so um, there's one of the ways that we know that um That nature does not favor organisms that perceive reality exactly as it is instead It favors organisms that perceive reality in ways that are generally most conducive to that species survival and reproduction It happens with regard to a species of beetle in, um Australia and the thing is is that with this particular species of beetle their females Like what they consider a sexy female is essentially a female that is like large Round bumpy and brown like that's like the the the particular like character of the females shell and This species which has survived on this planet for millions of years is now going extinct Because humans are throwing away beer bottles and the male insects are seeing these beer bottles into these male These are those like the sexiest beer bottles they have ever perceived in their entire life And they know beyond a shadow of a doubt in their mind that that is the sexiest possible female And it's a real female and they're going to jump in there and do what they're what they're going to do And of course, they're not mating and they're dying off Because what's happened is is that a crack in their perceptions has entered into the picture um When you push in this direction of like like 20th century rationalism, uh, when you try to Um prescribe the scientific method as the answer for all of life's problems and all of all of the issues with it and rationality Um, what happens is is that the person becomes focused on their mind? And It's exactly the opposite. I mean that seems the scientific method seems to be um Solving the exact problem that you're addressing to go beyond The scientific method adjusts for all the flaws in human perception as much as they possibly can In all the biases and seeing correlation where correlation doesn't exist It's in causation where causation doesn't exist. It's seeing agency when there's no agency I mean making repeatable predictions, uh under laboratory So all the problems that you had all the problems that you have with human perception Is exactly why we have the scientific method. So how do you use the scientific method to solve major depression? Oh my god, like there is like I'm not talking about studies. I'm talking about like you I mean you're asking a non-scientist to tell you exactly the scientific solution I'm asking you to imagine that you are in the grips of major depression And I'm asking you to use the scientific method to heal yourself from it physician heal thyself With the scientific first. So I'm not an expert So I don't know the answer but I can guarantee you that there is So much that the scientific world has to offer in that department. Yeah more than anything in the scientific world Yes, but the individual human may not go to them and deal with them Exactly. They should though. They should though. I think it's as if you can see anything Then within their perceptions of the world specifically because of how human brains have This is a win for my side. I don't understand why you're saying this like From when it comes to like dealing with depression The scientific world has given us better solution than any other methodology solution is this What solution would specific solution are you talking about? Well, I mean when it comes to medicine when it comes to figuring out the source of the depression when it comes to coming up with answers that have Proven that are proven to have the best results. And this is like something that keeps continues getting better and better and better No, there's many different fields on this. It's not just one Psychotherapy what else what else? Okay, but here's the when when it comes to actually finding the causes of you know, Depression and it doesn't always lead to like certainly, but here's the thing I always someone You shouldn't do one thing you shouldn't do is ask somebody who is not an expert witness in the field like me To give you the answer again when it comes to I'm trying to make you see the problem that you that you're missing here Let's say the scientific method has prescribed and let's let's assume that things actually can be perfect So let's assume that the scientific method Like I'm saying every I think I clarified this many times There will be the scientific method. It will have its flaws And it will have uh, it will never be perfect. Okay. It will not be perfect and it will have many many flaws My argument is not that this is a perfect model. My my argument is that Or you that it's a perfect model. I'm trying to say even if it was a perfect model It still wouldn't work for this situation Like it would not work for for what I'm bringing up Oh, yeah I think with what brunton is asking is not necessarily the scientific method But the philosophy behind the scientific method. So if somebody is prescribing to that They would tend to be more naturalistic more materialistic. How would that? Yeah With reality if you want real if you want real solutions You need to deal with the real world, which is a mysterious materialistic world Yeah, but well actually I would I would actually have some issues with that because But that's beyond the scope of this Okay So here's the issue. So we You're you're putting forth the like 19th century idea of materialism that the world is material and Get back to the example that you were giving like what is the problem with like what what is a better If somebody is depressed, okay, and they try to figure out the solution to the problem Yeah, and what is a better method than the scientific method? Um, well, what I would say is first of all, they're going to need faith to be able to even begin to take a Step towards solving their problem because I don't know if you've ever dealt with major depression But I have and when you're in the throes of major depression You don't see a way out of it the medicine. You're certain will not work the therapy You're certain will be a waste of time. This is the problem with depression as a as a mental condition and one of the problems with Consciousness in general when you talk to a depressed person and you try to talk them out of it What they'll say is they'll say i'm not depressed. This is just the way things are This is just the reality Do you think that the scientific method if there is a way to like doesn't give you I mean Do you think there there isn't like thousands of literature written on exactly what Person in a depression will think and how you could give them the confidence and a positive way of thinking and the motivation and a lot of the A lot of the points towards appealing to faith Like no, so your definition of faith is like something that is not like beyond the natural world. So what you call Beyond the natural world faith absolutely is a part of the natural world Okay, but this is not this is okay So what you're calling faith might be considered like I don't know positive thinking or confidence or not Motivation or I don't know. I'm just saying like the motivation that somebody needs. I would I would consider faith essentially Can I just finish this like Or the motion words in my mouth. No, no, I'm okay. So I'm not saying you're saying this right, but I'm saying that what What what you might be describing again, these are examples that is not necessarily what you're saying But I'm just giving you examples of things that within the scientific method could be described as the way as as a reef as proven model Of reframing someone's Their own view of their own depression that might actually put them in the right path to recover from the depression Like if that works, sure, I'm sure the only way to show If that what if the re if a better understanding of what your depression is and And a reframing of your mind for you to get motivated to solve the problem If that methodology works the best way to see that methodology works Is to the scientific method where we agree Where we where we would And again, there's a number of studies that have shown this Exactly. Okay. Great. So the scientific method Controlling for external variables making sure that you have a large enough sample size make sure you are is double-blinded making sure that you're not The correlation actually I don't have any issues with the scientific method as a method for making prognostication No, I know you don't I know you don't we're not we're not arguing whether the scientific method is good or not What we are doing what we're arguing is that I think it's the best It's the best and even the things that you're saying that is a problem with depression that needs to be Even if it were the best method, it still would be off topic from what we're talking about here Which is faith and the benefits of faith No, so what i'm saying is that it's the best is the best method and Trying to promote any other way of getting at solutions and our understanding of reality Is harmful because you're depriving people of relying on the best methods of knowledge You're giving ironically ironically you're giving me like a fundamentalist argument here Yeah, we have to have one method to deal with all of our problems And that one method must be the best method and any other method is Going to have problems and going to take away Let's put faith and science behind do you agree do you not agree that The we should be promoting the best method over other methods like forget science and faith and everything like that I think we I think you would agree with me as somebody who wants to promote the best methodology to give us the best solutions You would say I favor the best methodology over That's methodology in the specific situation that we're dealing with one methodology is not going to endure Through every possible situation that one could have you you will never find one key that opens every door You need a variety of keys to get through Method is because the scientific method is the process of finding the best key like that. It's not one kill the scientific method is is a method for Making prognostications and repeatable Um experiments towards like the future Finding the best solution for every situation is done. It's best done even if the solution is so here's the thing The scientific method is not saying oh here's a solution to everything The scientific like you think different situations require different solutions And the best way to find a different solution to the different solution is through the scientific method because it tests everything And looks at the results and based on the result tells you what the solution to this specific perspective under the current Laws of the universe as we know them. Yes, but i'm not simply talking about from an external perspective I'm talking about humans internally. I'm talking. I'm essentially talking about I don't believe souls literally exist But i'm talking about the human soul. I'm talking about the human psyche And there are serious psychological problems that result from an over reliance on traditional scientific rational thinking That's the that's my issue Okay, so here as a as somebody who believes in science. I don't um, but i'm prescribing is not to be like um Like sitting every like i'm talking about what promote to the society as large I'm not saying like, okay. What do what show do I watch? Okay? Let me look at the scientific method to figure out what show should I watch? Oh like oh my god I feel like a little bit Sad today. Okay, let me like no like it's not like over what I don't understand what you mean by the over reliance. I'm just Um, so let me let me explain Um, so within this particular tradition, we have a couple of problems One that it came from the uh monotheistic Christian tradition in the sense that we believed um, you know in in christenedom That humans were created by god For a specific purpose and that god, you know, he he cared about us and he loved us But we had to fulfill that purpose or we would burn in hell essentially and that that was the prevailing myth that surrounded uh christenedom Sense the at least the fall of the roman empire up until maybe the it started to erode in the Late 1800s early 1900s as a result of the religious wars and persecutions in europe and the fall of the power of the church So what happened was was that we went from being a child of god by adoption and grace Um, because we weren't really one of the family. You know, we were uh, we had to accept jesus's salvation to to be But we had a distinct purpose within the world. Um, we were essentially Like robots built by god to love god and we needed to do our our purpose then This crumbles and we get rid of god. Well, then what are we? We are essentially Ghosts driving a meat suit on it was so much bacteria on a rock in An indifferent universe that we came into as a stranger within the world This isn't how the world really is at all. Um, but it is The it is the idea of the fully automatic mechanical material universe where they say Um, everything is material and consciousness is just a very sophisticated form Beautiful ways to frame each side and very discussing ways to frame both side of this Like if the same thing that you described right now if you read carl sagan or the magic of reality By richard duck is you could have a much more beautiful framing of what you just described Or i or i can read ellen waltz and get it even better, but yeah, i know that there are beautiful ways to describe it Child of gods scenario you could describe as the slaves of god and also down to be You know burning so i don't like again, this is why Like these framings of things it's not a really reliable way of figuring out which one is real and which one isn't Do we have to use the the scientific method is a better way than these, you know, just Scientific method can tell us for instance. What is the purpose of life? Like what the scientific can't tell us what's the purpose of life? There is no purpose of life. We individually decide we individually decide what our purpose is going to be You know that well, that's an existentialist argument And i don't a hundred percent disagree with it, but i actually do have A disagreement i think the purpose of life is life is what exists for itself The purpose of life is simply to live and to exist it's it's i would liken it to Thing like your yeah the scientific method doesn't have answers to answer to to to questions that don't have answers Yeah, well, i mean Yeah, the the science exactly so again, you can't just rely on the scientific method and Like when it comes to purpose even though it doesn't have the answer to the purpose of life because that the answer does not exist But for you There's a definite answer to the purpose of life Okay, but to you personally to what your purpose of life is and for you to understand what For you to understand what your purpose in life is to for you to understand of what reality like to know What your purpose is in life is you will be well more equipped to answering that question If you actually understand your reality if you understand the nature of the world around you If you understand the best tools to be more Sure of your own And your awareness of your own You know thoughts And again all of this all of this you will be in a much more whatever that answer is again That answer is different for every person But whatever that answer is you are way more likely to arrive at it If you have a better roadmap if you have a better understanding of what reality is like and you will be able to navigate your you know, you're Traveling through this reality You you will be able to navigate yourself and arrive at a better conclusion and arrive at your destination And your destination is going to be different from other people's difference destination But your map shouldn't be your map should be based on reality I don't think my destination is different from other people's destiny I think everyone has the same purpose to life like I really do like it's my opinion But in in my opinion, I think there is a single Cancer I have a tumor. I discovered I have a tumor. Okay Um, and I want to deal with the situation How does faith help me with this situation? How does faith help you because you can tell yourself? I'm going to get through this Okay, is that your definition of faith just having confidence in someone? It's one aspect of faith It's the ability And then the other aspects of faith is even if you don't get through this it's still going to be okay Okay, that's also just confidence and positive thinking and stuff like that I mean Positive thinking has a really nasty connotation because it I'm that's no, I I'm saying that's a good thing. Like I I know there's Kind of a bad thing No, no, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying as if good as a good thing but I'm just saying if you're if You know, there needs to be a difference of the difference between the definition of faith And confidence and positive thinking because if that's all it is Let's take this cancer argument through to the end here It's so this is actually I think this can actually help us understand what I'm trying to get at with with regard to faith So you get cancer And you you're very worried that you're going to die Okay, now Let's say for instance that The doctor comes to you and says, you know, basically you've got two months to live. There's absolutely nothing we can do Now a scientific worldview Would likely trust the doctor And say, okay, I am going to die and that's it. I'm done Is that correct? Well, the scientific method also says that if you are put in a positive mood, your immune system would be stronger and you Probably you would be able to how do you get yourself in a positive mood when you know that that there's no hope Oh, well, there's a lot of studies on that and how to bring people in you know in In terms of that accepting the new reality and how to adjust with that What are the best? What are the best things to say to a patient like that? What are the best question? Like there's a lot of Trials and analysis on what work essentially Many like it's either medicine or what do people tell them there's a lot of debates There's a lot of disagreements. There's a lot of tests. There are a lot of studies And you notice you're talking about what everyone around the person does But you're not really talking about what the person does internally No, it's basically no, it's exactly what it's exactly about what to tell how to get the patient to a situation where they put The way of the way of the you are not the one who is actually suffering from the cancer as if this is something to to be diagnosed and dealt with As a doctor and not as the person How we can help our fellow human beings. Yeah, correct But we but we there it's very easy to look at someone else And in a difficult situation and diagnose their problem and how to fix them and you can be right or wrong with that But that's it's not really what i'm talking about because again As a non-scientist i'm sorry Taking what the patient should do not what the people who are trying to help the patient should do as a non-scientist Right, again, I think the patient should also go look at the latest studies on how to help themselves Do you think that's a good passively a good use of the last time on earth is reading a bunch of They probably don't even understand because they're not either not an academic Yeah, they need to ask experts to Tell them what what is the best? What is what the studies shows? to Tell them what your problem is and like hey listen i'm living and I have two weeks to live I want to be happy in this last two weeks, right? Based on Based on your expert analysis. What is the most efficient way of me getting myself there and ask multiple experts? Give the second and third and fourth opinion I'm getting stunned by this No, here's the thing given that Um, you have your own answers as well, right? I do have my own answers as well, but that's not you and the patient right so for here's here's for example Let's say I have here's what I would do. Okay. Let's say I have two weeks to live I will go online and we like look at other people's experiences and what they did in the When you could be spending important time with your family When you when you could be putting your affairs in order and and getting the most out of life You're going online searching for a way to extend your life. You said you put I put words in your mouth. Yeah, I'm sorry Yeah, do you think I'm not going to do that? Do you think like I'm not going to be do you think I'm going to spend my last two weeks just doing research? And I'm not going to be like sitting next to my wife and telling her how much I love her Do you think I'm not going to call my dad? Or visit him because it would get executed if I go back to Iran. Do you think I'm not going to spend time Spending as much as I time with my brother just because I'm spending some time Researching and seeing how other people will dealing with their depressions Seeing what just because I spent some time seeing how people got the best results in the shortest amount of time Do you think I'm not going to do I'm not going to try to figure out what is the most How I could go and maybe send some time in nature and meditate Do you think I'm not going to do all those things just because I'm spending some time just to see how other What are how other people also dealt with this and how other people got the best results? Do you think that that contributes to each other? I I would think that there is a bit of a conflict here And I also think we can't really know what we do until we are really faced with that situation Yeah, exactly But I do think that there's lessons to be learned from other people that have dealt with the situation And one doing one of these things does not contradict me spending loves quality time with the people who love or I love I think searching I think seeking out Away in those last two weeks it's trying to seek out a way suddenly to Have those best possible last two weeks in that moment Like I I think that that is not going to be high on your list of priorities Like you may spend time I think um, there might be something that just clicks that um, you know, I it's such a missed opportunity Maybe like uh, maybe because I didn't see something that I would have seen if I um Maybe I didn't do the research. Maybe I didn't look into this But there was just some information there that would have made this last two weeks So much easier for me to endure if I just knew that information if somebody just told us like hey This has been a trial and improvement method I feel like I think like this and if I just I see that and I try it and it will makes my last two weeks So much easier. I think it's worth just doing a little bit of research I think Doing a little bit of research might be a natural thing for somebody to to to do um I don't net I don't think you're going to find the secret In like the the last two weeks of your life in research. I don't think that's gonna happen But I think it's but I think it's better than listening to this person Like hey like I know somebody who's like hey go to india There's this guy that will cure your tumor and something like that And like just believe me and have faith like imagine spending my last two weeks doing that right So i'm just saying that yeah, okay If you don't want to do if you if you think you already have the answer If you think like in the last two weeks, you know that this is what you want to do Then do you but i'm saying if you don't know if you have no fucking idea clue Are like, oh my god, I have two weeks to live and I don't know what to do And I do if you want at that point if you're looking for answers There are better ways to come up with an answers and there are horrible ways to come out an answer and I know this And I know this because my mom died of cancer, right? Sorry Mike and yeah And between the time that I realized that she had cancer and then she died I was one month like what what at some point I had the mom and everything was okay And I had a happy family and then I told that she had cancer and within one month Then I had no mother and it was like it was almost impossible to You know come to terms with this new reality, right? But What dealing during this one month? We were getting a lot of suggestion And a lot of it was based on faith. I guess what they were all horrible They were all horrible. They will all make our last my last month with my mother Way way more stressful to her to me to my family And it would have made that last month a miserable. I'm so glad. Sorry to hear that But I'm not sure that that's representative of what I'm talking about Yeah, maybe not you maybe other people's vision of faith, right? Um, I'm so glad that what we decided to do as a family Was to listen to the experts and the experts told us that listen Her chances are very low My dad wanted to do chemotherapy They told us that You are just going to make her more miserable for longer She is very likely there's a chance that she will survive, but she's very likely going to die Do you want to have a shorter quality time with her? Or a longer time with her suffering through chemotherapy? And that was the honest opinion of the experts that we were dealing with Yeah, I My dad might have said the same thing And we decided to listen to the experts and we decided to have to instead of trying to cure her cancer We decided to try to focus on all the solutions that will make her time less painful Everything that we did in the last month was not about curing her cancer Was about trying to have quality time with her in the last month that we had with her And I'm that's a very good way to approach things. Yeah, and I'm glad we listened to the experts and other and then Yeah, I'm well. I'm glad you did too because again these are medical professionals and they deal with the situation quite frequently But but what you described is is very different from at least how it seemed to me in the first characterization of your argument So essentially what I mean that's my failure at communicating. Sorry. Yeah, no, it's all right Um, it could also be my own bias jumping in there And deciding to mess with it. So And my condolences with your mother that is a terrible thing that you had to go through and I'm very sorry about it you know My point on this whole thing is that And this is kind of getting a little bit into my own Religious beliefs and mine are not based simply on faith Um In fact, I think they have a lot to do with like modern quantum physics and like a lot of what we understand it's more of a Different way of reframing the world. It's a way of looking at things Um, and one of the things that I found which is really key because death has been a very Serious presence in my life. I'm a goth. It happens Um, you know, I was touched by death when a friend of mine Passed away unexpectedly in his sleep at 25 years of age out of nowhere five days before I turned 25 And that has been the major catalyzing event of my life since then it drove me to hike the Appalachian Trail It drove a lot of my creative work. It got me to move to new york city, you know, and I have been searching for answers to the riddle of death ever since and Over the past few years with a lot of Meditation a lot of thought a lot of buddhist practice. I didn't find the answers in like Western Rationalism I didn't find them in the writings of christopher hitchhens even though he talked somewhat similarly about this and you know I read his final writings before he got the intention of those writings No, no, I know well he did he talked quite a bit about death towards the end Um, you know, um, where I found them was uh in the philosophy of alan watts and soca gakai and um realizing essentially That the ego the individual isn't real Um, and that while we may perceive ourselves as being in this particular body And being this particular I that's simply not all that we are Um, what we actually are is the sum total the the the totality of life and experience We are the topic, isn't it say what that's another topic. I'm glad It ties into this because it deals with the fundamental and there's a video on my channel Which you might want to check out after this, uh, which is called uh, suny sunyata or sunyata the void. Um Where I I specifically talk about how this addresses like the major problem in western philosophy ever since the fall of the church Um, because really what we've got is Ever since the fall of the church and ever since we all agreed that mankind is not actually a child of god and heaven's Probably not waiting for us and hell is probably not waiting for us Um, what has happened is from nicha on, you know, have been attempts to keep nihilism at bay to keep the I am this little me In this giant cold unfeeling universe and lots of philosophers including the existentialists and you put forth an existentialist philosophy And I quoted an existentialist thinker at the beginning Have had various ways to deal with this But most people didn't have to deal with that most philosophers ended up having to deal with that But most common people didn't have to deal with that with that religion Um, I mean I would highly disagree with that and in fact I think that that is kind of the driving force beyond a lot of Our social ills including, you know, world war two and especially the holocaust if you read, um on we could discuss that on another topic, but I think less I think this gets to the core of this though because All right We've been Happiest countries in the world are the ones without religion. So that's basically yeah, but you can have faith without religion All right guys, yeah, we've been at it for like nearly an hour. I was I try to keep the uh keeper rail open so you could talk about it because it seems like neither one of y'all was defending, uh Or arguing against faith and like something supernatural. So that's why I let it be like open so you could define We both agree with that right Brent believe the supernatural could go fuck itself. Can we If the supernaturally assisted it would just be like some kind of technology or natural law that we don't have If people actually go to heaven, there's a natural mechanism to send their consciousness to heaven Like that's here. We got some questions that's coming in. So let's start reading off these questions That's both out me and Yeah, the description below definitely definitely check these gods out also keep these uh super chats coming You know, uh, then you know house maintenance, you know, james gotta get that sweater. He told me he wanted to Buy a nice sweater. So Yeah, uh, we're gonna go through it y'all still gonna have the opportunity to uh The go through some more ideas and then we'll let y'all uh give y'all closing statements and stuff like that So I do have one question right here. Thanks for the $20 Rodney He said uh in Iraq atheists slash secularists are growing ever larger every day Say that one more time. Your idea is a little bit low. I'm sorry. Hold up All right, can you hear me? Uh, any better now? It's fine. Yeah, it's fine. All right. I'm sorry man Well, I said, uh, once again, thanks for the 20 bucks Rodney He asked uh all he states in Iraq atheists slash secularists are growing ever uh ever larger every day And young Iraqis are abandoning religion all together This trend impossible in Saddam's Iraq Vindicates c-hitchens. Christopher Hitchens said the intervention in iraq was justified. Does anybody have a Want to comment on that? No, I think I don't agree I don't I don't agree with the fact that it's impossible because right in neighboring country iran We just came out studies that shows that half Half of iranians Have lift lift religion within their lifetime. Okay, half I mean, I was shocked by that number. Okay, iran by according to the latest number is a muslim minority country And this is with not not within generations within their lifetime. Half of iranians have left islam So to argue that this is this would have been impossible. I mean Saddam wasn't even a seocrat. We're talking about people that are living under a theocracy Islamic theocracy they're leaving Islam by numbers that I didn't think it would be possible in my lifetime So your premise I think is iran. Yeah, I I'm horrified by that How many millions of people have died? How many lives have been shattered and destroyed? How many children have been crippled and you're saying that this is all great because a couple people left the church In iraq like seriously, that is one of the most disgusting things that I've ever heard that get the iraq war And the war on terror is probably the single greatest Um most inhumane disaster of the 21st century. It led directly to the to the rise of isis and the freaking um War in syria where freaking Assad is dropping barrel bombs on his own people Yemen imperialist piece of crap. I I don't get mad at people usually but I'm I'm darn mad at you. Okay continue Okay, I do want to be clear with people because I think a lot of people confuse iraq and iran so iraq iraq like the numbers in iran are Are people for people living religion is higher than iraq. Okay iran and this is a neighboring country Okay, and both both of iraq and iran are shia majority countries. Okay, but I do agree with brend I think like that's uh, that's that was the consequence the number of people that have paid for this war And continue to just they to pay for that war Does really prove hitching wrong and that one. I mean I can still respect someone's right beliefs right views and I admit that they were wrong about something. Um, that you know, that's not a contradiction vehicle I I think hitching's was the best of the new atheists honestly. I named my cat after him But like yeah, he as a human being he left the world worse than he found it I didn't know about that I can't blame all of the iraq war I don't think hitching's but that hitching's the iraq war would not happen. I don't think you could blame hitching Fair enough fair enough. You're right. You're right. My bad. I got a little I'm surprised. I don't normally get emotional I don't even get mad at nazi's usually I started three four four saw things for the 35 bucks Uh, open question. He says brenton's bug example Those bugs have faith in their senses. They're not making a rational decision You lose boy. Well, I'm not gonna say that. He's that uh, that's all right. I insulted the last guy, but um Yeah, no faith in your sense. That's empiricism. That's the basis of the scientific method. So like Insects don't have the capability of faith one way or another like they can't even I remember I When I was hiking the appellation trail main to georgia I would run into spider webs and I said to one of the other hikers I was like, hey, I wish they would learn to not Build their webs on the trail and the other hikers like I can I'm glad they can't learn anything I I think it's ridiculous to talk about faith in terms of an insect mind I just to clarify the scientific method relies on the information that it gets from your sensory methods But it doesn't trust them, right? It like you have to go through a cleansing process like it's correct Yeah, correct It's just you couldn't have the scientific method without empiricism You couldn't have anything without Relying on your like you basically you have to have the data feed You have to get data coming in from some And that's different than philosophical impure empiricism in the in the sense that like, you know, like rationalism predated empiricism And we still had data coming in we still have not about how the data comes into your conscious mind It's about how you treat it after it comes into your conscious. Yes, correct. Okay. Okay Gabriel Yeah, excuse me. I'm sorry Gabrielle. Thanks for the five bucks says bottom line is Do you believe the human mind is the product of matter coming together? Or there is a supernatural agent behind it? If so Prove it I think we both agree that there's no super there's no supernatural agent. Yeah I mean there could be but there's no evidence for such a thing. I don't it's a good idea I mean, I actually with this one I don't even know if it could be because if it is any supernatural element once we understand it then it's part of What I what I wanted to bring up here is So like consciousness in the the heart the so-called hard problem of consciousness and how does consciousness arise from Unconsciousness, there's two ways of looking at this. There's the idea that Consciousness is just a sophisticated form of matter, which I think is fine But also that means that matter is just a basic form of consciousness And I mean that essentially and I actually agree this is correct Like rocks are somewhat conscious in the sense that I can take a rock and bang on it and there's a response from it so definition of consciousness then because I don't think a banging back that you get from a From a rock that's that's a response essentially. What it's a response You're redefining responses as consciousness and therefore like then basic consciousness. I would say like I would say What people mean when they say rocks are conscious though. No, no, I don't think there's a spirit a literal spirit living in the rock in the rock Intelligence or understanding or perception. Yeah, so but but the why are you redefining words? I'm not redefining words. I'm just saying that like for instance the philosophical zombie that that that's a problem with regard to consciousness That But I'm just but I'm just saying that given that you know what most people mean when they saying Conscious then don't say rocks have consciousness. Well, no, I like to do that because that engages people like when you when you It confuses them and then they want to find out what the hell you're talking about and then Promoting ideas that there's not okay. So for example, you can say god There is no evidence for the existence of a god. All right, and you're like well To me god is just love and like fine your god is real But you know what you could do you could just call love love or somebody said like hey to me god is nature Like we already have a word for that. It's called nature. God damn it. So yeah, that's the argument. You're essentially Objecting to spinoza's god and it's funny because I would actually say Yes to spinoza's god, but I would also wouldn't define that god and sort of the western Kingly sense. I'd define it closer to like brahman like the down stuff that there is in the universe ultimate reality And then that's what would be why I might say that we are all god pretending He's not in the or it's not I think both Einstein and hawkings realize what it's at stake when it comes to playing poetry with the word god A lot of people will attribute your usage of the word god as it as you know to prove that you That to legitimize theism Right, and that's why both hawkings and Einstein regret it using poetic language to describe Sure, but I'm literally a poet like they're scientists So maybe Okay, but if you if you notice that maybe your poetic license is actually causing confusion Maybe be put like being very clear and maybe you're doing that actually you're telling check out my channel I'm pretty clear in what I'm talking about All right, we got another uh, well a statement from spotter three four four czar uh, he says devil's lettuce moderate alcohol Fiji beaches and reading snow white zombie apocalypse best two weeks ever problem solved awesome I'm gonna write that down actually for yeah He's referring by the way to my comic book The Fiji that really sounds really good. So dude, that's awesome All right, so uh, hey praise under he's our produce over there. Do we have any more questions coming in? I don't know what this is about but snow white zombie is an epic title like I'll send you a copy or you're in you're in canada, right? Give me a pdf. I'll send you a pdf. You can read the first and second issue. Yeah Awesome. Awesome. All right. So if y'all got um closing statements, uh, we gave uh, Brenton the first word So we'll give them the last word or should we give uh airman? Same in is that it's always fun talking to Brenton. That's all it is like I always enjoy talking to Brenton. I don't have much else to say. I think I already said everything I I yes, it's some of the most fun conversations that Absolutely. Well, I really enjoy it too. And this this was really interesting Um, I think we talked around like a lot of really big ideas throughout all of this but kind of what I what I really wanted to get at is is that Um, I'll just I'll sort of close with this. Um My religious practice in buddhism involves chanting Namyo horeng ke kyo to the gohan zone, which is a scroll on my wall And there's a lot of questions and a lot of the time like because I was an atheist for like Uh four years in new york And it wasn't until my faith returned that I began to Practice my buddhism. But what I can tell you is is that there's this we call it Devilish functions There's this little voice in your head that wants to keep you in the place that you're at because we get freaked out by change And so when you first go and decide you want to start religious practice Um There's the idea in much the same way that you go when you want to start psychotherapy There's the idea that oh, this doesn't actually do anything And what I can tell you is I can't 100 explain why it works But the practice of daimoku and ganyu twice a day Um has changed my life in a huge way I've seen measurable differences in my mood that have exceeded what I was able to do on medicine Uh and exercise now I still did medicine and exercise because I don't think that faith Alone is something that we should try to run our life on I think that it is one of many strategies in our quiver for dealing with difficulties within the world But I think that it is something that we have as a Technological scientific culture We have gone a little too far and we have inflamed the world We have inflamed each other and as such we have sucked a lot of the meaning out of life And turned life into a task and I'm not going to say that that's necessarily because of science But I'm going to say that it's because of a Form of thinking that our particular culture associates with science And so what I think overall what we need together Is we need to realize that we are in fact All connected and that we and our we are connected to our environment to our communities and to the world in the universe as a whole And I don't care if you want to call that religion or if you just want to call that reality In fact, it makes no difference from where I'm sitting Um But it is something that we need to recognize before we destroy ourselves either through nuclear war or more likely what it seems Um global warming. So thank you or AI I think it would be nice No, but never the AI would be nice. No, we did get one more question in Uh, so let me read that right quick. Uh comes my way of I'm not even going to try to say this name I'll butcher it. I know it x a l y s i x s and any things for the five dollars Uh, they say people don't necessarily turn the science to solve our social problems Rather, it has been religion or faith in ideologies So if either one y'all want to answer that and we'll give him in the uh, the live I just want to say that for every story of somebody having positive experience from going off the scientific method to something else There are hundreds and thousands of people that had That lives their lives and their results would have been ruined and that they got subpar results because of it, right? um And again to judge whether You know relying on other methods works or doesn't work We can't just rely on anecdotal examples. Well, I tried it and it works for me, right? And the way to realize what if a methodology works or not is to look at large numbers High sample sizes that is collected in a you know, you know, a scientific method and then analyze it in a very Methodological and careful way, right again, which is far better than looking at someone's Someone's story telling me like well, I did this and it had a good experience, right? That's not a very reliable way of realizing if something works on that, right? And when it comes to relying on the scientific method We like when it comes to people you're saying, you know, I I have to say like people have There are more people that are not dealing with Their children dying under the age of five. There are more people that are More women that are not dying through child childbirth people when they they're not going through Torture every time they have to have their teeth pulled out, right? People have access to clean water people have access to more food because of these methods people have access to their loved ones and much more than they Did before because of these methods people have more of more of a Say in their lives in their future in their destiny in their everything In their surroundings in their environment because of these methods, right people are Living happier more meaningful lives because of these methods, right? So And yes, there are flaws. There are mistakes. There are Setbacks, there are overcorrections. There are many things that you could point to examples of things that went wrong But we are happier Less violent less miserable less sick less Hungry less poor world Because of the scientific method and we have to recognize that and we have to be grateful for it And we have to be very very careful if somebody wants to promote an alternative method in and in replacement of it Yeah, I will just respond to that in the sense that um, I I disagree. I don't think we're actually happier And in fact, if you look at like the data on it You know people who live in hunter-gatherer cultures tend to report higher. Yeah, steven pinker is a liberal Read this book and check don't trust this book. Follow the sources after you read the book Okay, okay, you're you're you're weirdo cheerleader for the rich and powerful is And also Rich thing Dude, don't you don't have to make me rich if you can't afford this book if you can afford it Just buy it But if you can't afford it or if you live in a country that there's no amazon or if you don't have a credit card Contact us on asus republic and i'll send you a free pdf copy of what this book is That's super cool. You should definitely get armans book and you should get snow white zombie if you can um, yeah, my point here, I will point out that um I Cambodia in Cambodia, uh, they're the population prior to um, westerners coming in and bringing their technology was a population of Uh, peaceful theravada buddhists and they were a violation of all time by you. Yes. Yes, and let me Yeah, I agree with you and and here's the thing. Um, when the westerners came in We introduced new crop yield methods new scientific methods to boost their crop yield and we were talking about this um, so prior, uh, the um buddhists Worked six months out of the year and took six months out of the year off and initially when the westerners put in their, uh Their their new technology it doubled their harvest when they found that the buddhists worked three months out of the year And took nine months out of the year off and they said well, this can't be and they instituted capitalism and And currency and all of the wonderful things that we have in the west that sieven pinker Um praises and before poll pot Before poll pot this led to mobs tearing infants apart in the street There went once the technology provides a lot of great things for us And I am certainly not a primitivist and I am not anti technology or anti science But we cannot see it as a totalitarian solution because it strips humanity from the world It strips and again, it breaks us down into Units that produce value for shareholders and that's nothing anybody wants to be At all within the definition of the scientific message. It doesn't have to be in the definition It's within the effect and remember the buddha talked about that. Look at what it actually does People get happier looking at themselves in different ways the best way to figure out how to be how people can How people can see themselves in nature and in society what produces the what framing of the mind will make them the most happy The way to figure that out the figure to answer that question is the scientific is the scientific method and Even even the examples even the examples of where the scientific method was Made like use and was the results weren't good if you actually look at the problems if you see that if there was a closer You know if it was if it actually used the scientific method in those situations to figure out Where was the flaw and where was the problem? The only way to fix that is to use the scientific method even more not less more That's how you solve the mistakes of the scientific of people when they use the scientific method If I if you say stuff We got one more question Is better science. So this is for brendan. It's uh from uh, uh, Gabrielle. She she gave us another couple of bucks She says I think brenton mistook psychology for faith. It's okay Uh, I would say I more or less mistook philosophy for faith But again, i'm a buddhist and it's been said that buddhism is more philosophy than religion I don't really care what you call it. There's a strict delineation in uh, western tradition Between like the uh, the sacred and the profane and we look like And so like for instance once the idea of god crumbled We had the idea that everything is profane and nothing is sacred whereas in my view the sacred and the profane are exactly the same Samsara is nirvana. It's just in how you look at it All right, so here let's get ready to wrap it up. Let's give it up to our two debaters I mean they touched on some real deep topics including like, uh, real serious issues including like death and you know Depression and stuff like that. These are real serious issues. So we definitely appreciate What you guys brought to the table. I do want to I do want to share this like me personally Uh, whenever I haven't went to anything, uh, traveling. I always would look back to uh the american psychologist and uh, a great human as uh, albert ellis He was a father of uh rational and motive behavioral therapy, which in contributed heavily to uh cognitive behavioral therapy as it exists now So, uh, which has helped my wife. He like it's great Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But you know, you know, people go through things They find various ways to try to handle it And we're just trying to figure out what's the best way to do it, you know And this this conversation definitely helps along that way. So we definitely appreciate you guys Appreciate you as a moderator Well, well, thank you sir. Thank you sir. Try to do my best All right, so let's wrap it up. Uh once again, uh linked uh for these debates is in the description below. Definitely check these guys out Uh, definitely check out which is said, uh, snow white apocalypse snow white zombie apocalypse Snow white zombie apocalypse and what was the name of your book? Why there is no god? Why there is no god? Definitely check these guys out. All right Let's uh, we'll have to continue the these conversations armin because yeah, this was fascinating and you did not disappoint Oh, really? Thank you Appreciate it guys. All right, so let's wrap this thing on up. Y'all have a good night. All right all right