 Tonight, we reassess terrorism prevention in Nigeria and other African countries. And Attiku's aide Frank Shuaibu and Festus Keamo Bica over asset declaration and investigation of the 52 billion Naira SWP fund. This is Plus Politics, and I am Mary Anacol. This year's Global Terrorism Index has revealed that 60% of deaths attributed to violent extremist groups in 2022 occurred in sub-Saharan Africa. Many Africans have borne the brunt of decades-long insecurity. Communities have been experiencing continuous trauma resourcing from these insurgencies. Terrorist attacks, political violence, socioeconomic, political, religious and ethnic marginalization, genocides and civil wars. Inter-communal violence and lack of social cohesion have been known to contribute to the recruitment by groups on the continent, and despite many prevention efforts, the threat of terrorism still persists. Well, it's time for us to reassess what needs to go into preventing violent extremism and specifically recruitment into terror groups in Africa. Joining us live tonight to discuss this is Lawrence Alibi. He is a former commissioner of police at the FCT, and also joining us is Eugene Abel, Executive Director, Extrastep Initiative. Thank you very much, Rissa Alibi, for joining us. Good evening. Yeah, thank you for having me. My pleasure. Great. Let's start by looking at some of the causes or some of the recruitment processes that have enabled these sleeper cells that have gradually become terrorist sects across the country, even the continent. Many people have said that unemployment, underemployment and idleness obviously has cost many of these people to become a tool in the hands of some of these recruiters who have recruited them into sects, either through religious extremism or as a result of poverty. Again, Nigeria, as we all know, is still on the poverty index, whether we like it or not, and we're not actually properly placed. And this could also be a pointer to one of the reasons why we're having more and more of these young people join these sects. If we must deal with the situation, should we not be starting at looking at good governance? Yeah, good governance is a very major factor. First, when we look at the causal factor, those are those factors that are a bit terrorism, violent and violent and so forth, like what has just happened in the state where five policemen were brutally murdered by a group of unknown persons, as it is said. And what's happening is not easy on that part of the country. So there are a lot of factors, social, political, economic, and so forth. Like you cannot make a mention of poverty on employment. And most of those who have been put into the terrorism are the poverty, again, family background. Some parents have failed to counsel and guide their children and inculcate their children towards the moral character, because if a child, a young man is well counseled and guided, that the family values are very important, they will be able to adhere to those values. The family is the agent of socialization. When the children have been socialized to those moral, spiritual values, where they appreciate that they have to do the right thing and obey the laws of the land and obey their parents, they will not be so gullible to be in print, to be in print with the children's act. Again, the government, too, of the country has failed to allow the extent. We used to have, remember, we used to have in the past years, well, the Mansa, sorry, the operation, why operation, where we had mental orientation, when the progeny canal was there. We are not conscious that it was created in the hands of Nigerians. When even, as of indiscipline, indiscipline was not already in the society. We cannot even shunt in the queue in the bank. Maybe because the government has, the additional orientation has failed to perform its functions to create a Nigerian consciousness, to be able to incorporate the post-Nepatocic spirit in Nigerians. And this young ones believe that since the government has failed them, they can look for an alternative source of living, source of survival. In the basic needs of man, like Maslow, in terms of motivation, say, just for social needs. Social needs, those needs are needed by the human being. So again, when I talk about unemployment, poverty, and then other factors, also political. In this country, they have a little factor of marginalization. Some group of persons have believed to be marginalized, and they get some people indoctrinated to religious ideology. We and they, we are the mentality, and they see others as a threat, and only they know by using violence to achieve their goal. They see violence as a lexical means of achieving their objective and goal. So these are the factors that can actually have in taking the recruitment, the recruitment of the young ones, Nigerians to other countries. The government should therefore provide necessary infrastructures and employment for the elevation programs, making sure that Nigerians have a very good life. Today, Nigeria is said to be one of the poorest countries in the world. It's part of all our resources, both natural resources and human capital resources. But then leadership, good leaders, leaders will bring about good governance. Now, in the next few days, we'll be intruding another government. That will not bring a new chapter to our Nigerian political life. It's only when the government is committed, when the government has empathy, the government is people oriented, the government is concerned, and we have a vision to ensure that the writing is done. These are some of the factors that can have to checkmate the recruitment of young ones into those places, because if we have good governance, then people will enjoy the dividends of democracy. If there's a good governance, employment, good living standards, infrastructure development, economic problem, security will be tackled and so forth, security will be addressed, economic problem will be addressed, political, political, political values will be checkmated, and that will make society and secure for all our bad citizens. Very interesting that you've laid out some of these points. Let me start with the last thing that you said. Politics, many have pointed, in fact, let's start with Boko Haram and how Boko Haram became a thing in Nigeria. Many have pointed to the fact that political thuggery, which has been a tool in the hands of politicians across this country, was what metamorphosed into Boko Haram. People were given guns to fight against the detractors, and then, of course, right after that, they were abandoned as usual, and so, of course, they had to use what they had to get what they want, and now we have a big monster that we have to deal with. Even though the federal government tells us that Boko Haram has been technically defeated and they're now in the fringes, as opposed to what it used to be before, we've now seen different things. It has also, again, metamorphosed into kidnapping, into banditry, cattle rustling and unknown gunmen. So let's look at the politics of it, political thuggery. We just finished an election which, of course, has left a lot of people with frayed nerves and many wondering what the future holds for the electoral process of this country. What do we do in the first instance to deal with the issue of political thuggery, especially for those of us who live in Lagos? I'm sure, sir, you saw some of the videos that came out of Lagos during the elections and how thugs were openly threatening voters at polling units. If this is, of course, the order of the day and we're seeing that we're having... many more people are seeing that this political thuggery pays in a way and then that these people go scot-free. Will we ever be able to put to bed this issue of terrorism, this issue of insecurity, being that it looks like it's being rewarded every other day? So why and how would we want to put an end to it? Yes, thank you very much for raising this issue. You see, our political class, our politicians, they are so polymerized by power and materialism. During elections, during campaigns, they mobilize thugs, they mobilize young men, they mobilize called groups and arm them to fight their perceived enemies. And after the election, after the campaign elections, they will not be able to disarm these young men, disarm these young men, see, in the position of this illegally acquired or possessed firearms. And in the process, when the elections are over, young men now, they get involved in other crimes like kidnapping, kidnapping, cattle rustling, and other violent crimes. And in that situation, the popular politicians can no longer... They will be able to disarm them, because the police are now empowered with the guns. They are now empowered to use those guns when there's no politics, usually going to commit other violent crimes. So our politicians are mostly to some of the problems we have in this country today, because they see police as a very lucrative business. So they see police as a profession, say, a politician. How can they see a politician as a profession? Police is not a politician. It's not a profession. In other crimes, but here in Nigeria, we see police as a profession. And they see it, it is a do or die. You must grab it either by hook or by crook. And in that process, they put about moral values, put about mutual values to the background, and what their concern is how to achieve it by hook or by crook. And in that process, and they see violence, as using violence as a legitimate means. And the Amnesty young men and the young men go out for their perceived enemies that are identified by their masters or principals. And at the end, the cause, Avok and Mehan, kill innocent people and they conch now in the act of violence. They even get these young men dropped. They get them dropped and they go out. All they know is violence, so this destruction. So if this political class, if it makes politics less lucrative, political appointment less lucrative, I know that it's a little bit the culture of service. Service to humanity, service to our country, and service to God. If we impact this attribute of service, we'll be able to overcome this act of violence, this act of greed and mentalism, and our society will be better for all of us. All right, let me go to you, Eugene. Let me pick up from where the former commissioner stopped. Again, the issue of terrorism continues to linger. And I want to ask you why you think it's lingered for so long. For example, the Buhari administration rolled on the wings of fighting terrorism and putting it to an end. But here we are, a few days before Mr. President is about to hand over to the president-elect and we're still talking about reassessing the issue of terrorism in Nigeria. And we know that it's not just Nigeria that's experiencing it, but ours seems to, you know, continue to be on the up and up, even though it might not be Boko Haram, but of course, they're different. It's metamorphosed into a hydro-headed monster. Why do you think it's lingered for so long? Yes, first of all, I'd just like to give you the key intro. We have this misnomer to blame less than 120,000 people who were elected into office. Now, out of this, we are at a nation of supposedly, which is a life of about 200 million people. Less than 20,000 are elected into office. And you have another 5 million, 6 million people spread all over the United States, including the federal government. Who are the bureaucracies, who constitute the bureaucracies and the government, and they outlive each political cycle. So when we blame the politicians, we don't want to come to realization that the enforcers of the decisions of even the bad positions of the 20,000 elected officials are members of the bureaucracies who are the government, who have been trained for over 30 years to ensure that those failures and gaps that they teach these people how to govern, they direct them, they show them the ropes, and they show that if there are failures, that those failures must be addressed by way of sanctions because there are judges, there are magistrates, there are EFC officials, there are soldiers, there are policemen, and the rest of them. The bureaucracies have failed. The bureaucracies are responsible for where we are today because they teach, if they say they will not act, let me give you a typical example. Imagine that the woman who runs the National Bureau of Statistics decides to be political correct. She wouldn't be telling us the true story of the state of affairs of the economy. Do you know how they would consider it to be very lawyer? She kept telling us that we are not OAs, she's lying about the figures of our employment figures and their employment figures and all of that. That is where our problem is. We had an election. The first election happened, people died. As we speak, despite the assurances that were given to us, nobody has been sanctioned. And we opened our chests and went for another election. People died. We have not accounted for them. Why did they die? Why violence? Why do cycles of violence happen? Because we didn't do those things. What happened in Atama? What happened? Which was the height of effrontery? And we're suddenly sounding or finding it offensive. Don't forget that the man in charge, the rec, had postponed the announcement of the results in 11 a.m. And members of the strands of the Commission of Police and someone had secured the upshot, went with another man who was not authorized to announce result, sat by him and allowed them to announce results. meaning, first of all, either they didn't know what the rules say, or they were in concern to what was about to happen. So we have our society has failed. We're looking at, we're just running all over the place, calling symptoms, and no, no, no, no. The fundamentals have failed. The fundamentals are of a basic society, and the reason why the next, the, the, why the concept of government was created, there will be rules, and those rules must be governed and protected. And for the sake of the nation and her sovereignty, that's why she's a sovereign, that there are people who will stand up to those people who have shot political lifespans eight years maximum, and tell them, no, you can't do this. This is against the law. We will prevent it. That's why you have the Code of Conduct Bureau. That's why you have the Consumer Protection Agency. That's why you have the courts. You have so many agencies, people who are earning salaries, who have refused to do their job, and we have refused to sanction them because we're pointing in the wrong direction. Politics, anyone who decides to post great politics, and any living from it is a profession. We see Boyd Jobidie was a politician, he's like, he has never worked anywhere. There are lots of them in America, so on there, in their 80s, and so on. So it's anybody who has stepped into the public for her. I'm not interested in what you want to call it, but for the fact that you've taken responsibility, those who are paid and who earn salaries should do what they're supposed to do. Now we, who are them? But who makes them do what they're supposed to do? Because you see the Joe Biden's of this world, and all of those people who are in those places, they're there to serve. They're not there to receive their hardship allowances or to fight for their cars. They're there to serve, and they're accountable to people. But in this, in this part, like you said, the elections are flawed. Our votes don't count. So who's going to hold to account if these people outrightly are the ones who are snatching ballot boxes so that they can find themselves in those places? Why should they be answerable to us? Yes, because we, the employees, employers have shaped our responsibility of making them accountable. Don't forget that this, what is happening, it's not the standard. In 1984, President Buwari was General Buwari, and something happened in the APU's area. All the male students and presidents ran away. It was the girls who were vice presidents that brought the nation to a standstill. We've been in the democracy, everybody's claiming. They didn't give us as a piece of cake. People stood their ground. We are the employers. It's our responsibility to insist that they give us service. If we have to shut down the system, we shut down the system. If you keep letting things go, you take your child to school, and you don't ask the child for his own work, or see what the child should do, whatever you see at the end of the day, it's for, you deserve it as a parent. We employed them. They are using their taxes to run the system. If we don't ask questions and get a mention of videocrity, which the politicians throw at us, then we'll remain where we are. We feel like you pray from now to tomorrow. We all, it's our responsibility to call that counselor to order. It's our responsibility to demand. That's why when we saw that our gaps left, we said the second election shouldn't hold until certain things were put in place. We did the extra step initiative. We did a seven-page public announcement to that effect. But the average person was thinking on how they got, you're expecting equity in a place where the go-op was already have been shifted. That's like shame, madness, or society. We need to begin to think. They control the narrative, throw the standard. People are no longer thinking. We're beginning to think that this is the standard. They want to do censors. Nobody's going to count me. You can count me. Why do you want to count me? Why am I sure? I know that census is a major political weapon that is used for the allocation of resources. How am I sure you're going to be fair? When the basics which you should do, you haven't done. For security judges, you came and announced 40,000, 50,000 people will be on our light and that. I'm not saying for the funds that were located for those jobs, who are the people who died during the elections? Who killed them? Why did they die? Those who threatened people. What have you done about them? What are the cases in court taking forever? What is happening? If we don't ask questions and demand service, we will allow less than 20,000 people to continue to pull us by the nose. And this has been going on since 1999. So the earlier we wake up to this reality, the better. Our destiny is in our hands. It is us and only us that can deliver us from this situation. Let me come back to former CP Lawrence Alabi. You obviously were here when we had the end starts. Now, Eugene is saying that we must take the initiative to push for answers to questions that we raise to make sure that these people are accountable. Let's go back to NSAS. The last time that people said, well, this is what we want. We want accountability. We want an end to police brutality. We want good governance. We want to make sure that the average young person or the average Nigerian is safe in Nigeria, the man who pays taxes, sees what his taxes are paying for. The last time we saw that happen, it didn't necessarily end well. And the next time that we also wanted to see that kind of mass protest, we saw the full weight of government out on the streets and people were harassed and, you know, arrested. So again, when we say that we're asking for governments to be responsible, and just like Eugene said, a handful of people seems to be holding us at the jungler. Then what does the future hold for us? How do we even get those answers that we're looking for? If for every time we try, we have water cannons in our faces. Yeah, before I go into the post NSAS problem challenges or lesson lens, and let me first respond to what Eugene said. You see that the bureaucrats are the one causing the problem. The bureaucrats are employed by the broadcast class. The president appoints all the children of the federation, the federation appoints ministers, and these employees, their employees, employed by the government. And the government that detains, he obeys the pipe and detains the 292, as he said. The government have their objective, but they want to achieve. And if an employee, who is disabled and does not comply with the instructions, it is said that you have to be loyal. And like some people say that loyalty is 100%. You have to be loyal to comply with what they have said, told you to do. If we don't do that, they kick you out. If you look at what they do, they ask you to strike. How many of you don't strike? The government came under no pay, no work, no pay. And what happened? So I just had a negotiation. So I think to a right extent, the bureaucrats, it is a stunning problem. We're all responsible, both the politicians, the citizens, the political class, everybody is responsible. We are these are all contributing factors to the problem we are having today. They know about the end size, for instance. One lesson they learned from the end size. The end size protest was like a revolution. It means that it's a natural revolution. That it cut across the whole country. And until when it was contained by government. And they were asking for good governance against police brutality. And they also called for police reform. That would make the police a better police force. That would actually police and enforce law in non-international practices. And also they see that human rights have been promoted and protected. He's talking about, you see, when we said we take our hands, everything by our hands. It, like I said, leadership also determines fallacy. There's no way, say, we call for a revolution. And that revolution can start through by we also revolutionizing our conduct. Our character is everything. Character transformation. We transform our character. That's what I talk about. The family upbringing, family counseling, moral values, moral character, somebody's character. And the national orientation also trying to inculcate in our Nigerian citizens those values that will promote national commission, national unity, and patriotism among Nigerians. And no revolution and not things that are done by the everybody. Few hands can collect. Like, if the answer, for instance, had continued, I think it would cost, it would have some challenges, but also some benefit. So I think that we are all responsible. Okay. All right. I think now that we anticipate a new government in power come to May 29th, we put that the government of Tunubu will have a vision that will be concerned about people in this driven administration. Okay. The government is driven governor. Not governor that is there to loot. Governor that is there to amass when I encourage the people. Not governor that is there to promote insecurity. Okay. Because when you promote poverty and unemployment, you're promoting insecurity. Okay. And when you promote, when leaders are corrupt, corrupt, they also promote insecurity. Because corruption will bring about the best of public funds. Both funds are supposed to be used, usually to promote the cultural development, provide schools and good education, good medical facilities and so forth. This one is being diverted by corrupt politicians. Okay. We start off. Because of good equity. All right. Ms. Salami, because we don't have time, let me finally wrap up here with Eugene. Eugene, with what we've seen and going forward, do you think that we're really ready to deal with the issue of terrorism? Don't forget that we're also, I mean, there's just, this is a multifaceted issue. The people that have been displaced as a result of terrorism have been re-displaced again. And it seems like these terrorists have tested our government, tested our security agencies, and somewhat also seen the body language of our political class and continued in their ways. Because we saw like there was a little pause before the elections. And then of course, they came back 10 times harder. How ready do you think we are as a country to deal with the issue of terrorism? Or are we even serious about it? Okay. First of all, we have, I'll just give you a background. We have chief executives. Number one is the person that you have the state governor that the government chairman. None of them can sack any civil servants. They can only sack those who they appointed. Now, I'll take you back into history. Reversed in there was a doctor called Dr. Denny Kribesma, was a commissioner under military rule. He was not happy with the way the things the governor wanted to do. He resigned under the Amnesty program when Jonathan was taken over. The director of finance was a team wanted money to be left for the incoming government. And he refused to sign. And those funds were there. Now, I'll take you down to reverse it. When the Crack Eagle Crack Squad did what they did that killed those mechanics. If people like us did that, which the courts have granted judgment of us, it's five million against those consign. If we didn't put our grants down, for the five people who have voted in prison, those boys who are, that boy who was killed will have died for nothing. We need to take a position. There are no excuses for it. Now, bringing it to the terrorism we see today, we all know it's based on politics. Yes. And whenever I look at the soundbar on AIT, I don't like looking towards it because it keeps at six of what's happening. And I pray nobody tempts me. I have two daughters because I would definitely come after those people who are conserved. Now, wait for this. I'll seek, I'll resort to self-help. Now, in eight years, we've not had one sponsor. Why do I chase the men, the food soldiers? We are the sponsors. When I can trace the money, we are the sponsors. Don't take it. So it's all politics. The whole of us are dancing naked on the graves of those girls, kids who were impregnated. Some have four children, six children, and we're laughing at it. Now, going forward to the incoming administration, two things must be done, which I know they will do. Is they want to survive? I know they will do. Bola and Matini Boon, in the incoming president. I'm not sure about whether he's going to be sworn in. Now, when he comes in, he must, he has to deal with the economy and he has to deal with his security. He doesn't have a choice. All right. He just doesn't have a choice here. And for him to survive and do the things he wants to achieve for himself and for his administration, he has no option but then to do this. So there's likely to be complaints. They'll come to you complain very soon that he's high-handed, but it's the only way to go. Somebody has to bite the bullet and kick some asses. All of that remains to be seen. But I want to say thank you, gentlemen, because we're out of time. Eugene Abels is the executive director, extra step, initiative, and Lawrence Alibi is the former commissioner of police, FCT. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for being part of the conversation. Thank you. All right. Up next, we turn our attention to the probing of the SWP fund and calls for the declaration of Festus K. Amur's assets. Stay with us.