 Tonight we take a closer look at the increasing religious intolerance in Nigeria and the 2023 elections and political gladiators are plotting against the dictator of the electoral eye. This is Post-Politics. I am Mary Anna Cronin. The Sacramento State Police Command has said its men are still searching for suspected killers of the students of Sheil-Shagari College of Education Deborah Sammel. Sammel was stoned to death in May of 2022 by some students believed to be her classmate over allegations of blasphemy. Sickle to this, the former president, Olu Shah-Gon Basamja, called on Nigerians to tolerate each other's religion, saying it is the bane of peaceful coexistence and economic development for the country. Well, joining us to discuss this in detail is Reverend Joseph Hayab, his chairman of the Christian Association of Nigeria in Kaduna State. Reverend Hayab, it's so good to have you join us. Thank you for having me and good evening, Nigeria. Great. Earlier today we had a conversation in this regard, but let's break it down. Like I said earlier on, where in 2022, unfortunately, was still having to have this conversation about religious tolerance in a country that we call secular. This is not necessarily a super religious country. It's not that we are religious. Our constitution is secular, meaning that everybody has a right to practice whatever religion they want to practice, of course. But then the elections are close, and there are obviously tensions, be they religious, ethnic, and of course, political. But as someone who is in the North, someone who has been speaking up against issues of, you know, insecurity, you know, tolerance or intolerance. And of course, the issue of Deborah, why do you think that these issues continuously crop up, especially when it's getting close to campaign season? The truth about it is that these issues are not only up during campaigns. Issues are things that keeps happening every day. But sometimes the emphasis become clearer and louder when we are approaching political seasons. The cases of blasphemy, or people being accused of blasphemy, is true in Northern Nigeria. We have this case in Begumbe some years ago. We have similar story in Kano and other parts of Northern Nigeria where people were thrown or killed and that by that they were being accused of blasphemy. And recently we had this challenge of Deborah in Sokoto. And from the news, you said that the security are saying that they've not been able to arrest the killers. You know, these are the kind of challenge we have. When we talk about religious intolerance, we are looking at a situation where some people for religious reason or form of religious identity chose to cover others who are doing evil, but they will not arrest them because they belong to certain religion, who tend to sometimes keep friends on others because those people do not share the same religious identity with them. So this whole thing about religious intolerance is every day in Northern Nigeria. The Christian of the Nigerians, especially Northern Nigerians, have suffered this. From Kaduna State, we have suffered this. But not to say that everybody on the other faith is against us or is fighting us, but the powers that be have found it as a very instrument to you to manipulate and to perpetuate themselves in power and to cause people pain and makes life difficult for others. How on earth will we be Nigerians with a constitution that is secular, but you favor one religion above another religion? You know, recently I was discussing with a very important visitor to Nigeria and he said, look, you know, the crisis in Nigeria is not really religion. It is not something else and religion is coming to us. Okay, it is true. It is not religion. But can we just answer this question? You have a federal institution where there are 10 mocks, but you don't even have one Christian church. That is not also religion. That is not religion. So what are you talking about? So we have to begin to understand that as Nigerians, every Nigeria has a stake, every Nigeria has a right and every Nigerian right to be protected. But once you begin to suppress the right of other Nigerians, then it happens. Now, I always try to see, you know, the balance in conversations like this. As much as we are looking at it from a religious prism, which is one of the prisms through which Nigerians look at everything or address everything, I'm certain that there is a root cause of it. And that's where we're going to now. The root cause of all of this. It's easy for us to point fingers at politicians, but then I always go back to the homestead. I go back to the churches. What exactly is it that, you know, we say or we do that makes people feel that, oh, well, my religion is better than yours. So yours is better than mine. Oh, I think that you should not do this or that, even like I said, in a circular state. What conversations are we having in our homes? Could we also be playing the role? What you are saying is right. But let me put it this way. One, there is a high number of illiteracy or illiterate people in my region. And because of the level of illiteracy, these people can be easily manipulated using religion. And sometimes because of poverty, some people who are not trained to teach religion, if they have other businesses and things do not work, they will wake up overnight and claim to be religious preachers. I used to say that, how can you be a forcanizer in the morning? And in the evening, you tell me you are now in a bishop. Oh, you were a bricklayer or a shoe shiner whole day. In the evening, you now start preaching religion. So when you have ignorant people preaching to ignorant people, you can expect intolerance. When you are people who are hungry, preaching those who satisfy their stomach, you can expect intolerance. Then we have a situation where politicians for deliberate reason have found religion as a very cheap tool to manipulate for political people, for political opportunity, for political power. So religion is easily used. And then they instigate people and say, look, I am not allowed to do this because of my faith. I'm not allowed to do this because I come from this. And so people start depending the man who's supposed to be accountable to them. So this is a challenge we face. We have so much in trade people among us, and there's poverty around. So people because of illiteracy, because of poverty. If you look at this thing, even in Nigeria, there are other regions in Nigeria that have Christians and Muslims, but I don't think they do what we do. There is respect. There is togetherness. They work to each other's places of worship. They stand together as brothers. They don't think about differences. But in the north, the truth about it is that ignorance plays a major role. Poverty plays another larger role. Then the political manipulation plays another role. And when I talk about ignorance and poverty, I'm also talking about religious leaders who are ignorant of the teachings of their faith, manipulating and instigating others against others just because they want to see themselves as a hero of faith. You know, when you find, when you go to markets or motors park in northern Nigeria and listen to some religious stuff that's being played, you just wonder what is happening. And there is no government to arrest such people. That is the situation we find ourselves. Talking about not being ignorant or being illiterate, the case of Deborah happened in a college of education. It did not happen in some tiny village. It happened in a school for formal learning. So again, can we still use that excuse of, you know, ignorance or, you know, lack of education or, you know, illiteracy? Is that really the case? Again, I'm telling you to say this to you, that even though you called that the case of Deborah happened in an institution where those people really students, I think we need to ask questions about that. We are these students. So there are so many things. Then you talk about the extreme police reports. The police report states that these people were supposedly her classmates, people who are in her WhatsApp group. This is where the problem started according to the police's report. But the people who did the destable, the stateable act where they had classmates, we then we need to ask questions about some of the things that happened. And I know situations in Nigeria where you have people in college where they can't even read a book. So these are the problems we have. So whatever the malam or whatever the teacher tells them to do, they are just going to do it. They won't even think, they won't even reason. When we talk about illiteracy and ignorance, we are not talking about knowing how to read and write. We are talking about the ability to think, articulate and understand issues, not doing what somebody says you do just because he says you do. I have seen professors in Northern Nigeria, when it comes to religious intolerance, what they say and what they do, they won't believe it. So, you know, there are so many things about these things going on. When people think that their religion exists only in their religion, that is the situation we have. But you see, what I'm careful not to double into is to make it look as everybody is involved. But certainly the larger people are involved, even the most educated, even the most influential, even the most powerful. Let's talk about the radicalization of young people in the North. Right now, the North is devils on all sides with Boko Haram. And we know what Boko Haram means. It's no to Western education. We are also dealing with kidnapping and banditry and all sorts of things, cattle rustling, et cetera, et cetera. Now, most of these people who are perpetrating these acts of violence are obviously, one way or the other, radicalized, whether by faith or by whatever they believe in. So, again, what are religious leaders such as yourself? Unfortunately, we're unable to have Sheikh Mariah join us this evening. He would have given us his own side of it. But you're here. What are religious leaders like you and, of course, the likes of Sheikh Mariah doing to deal with this issue of radicalization to, on the other hand, de-radicalize if there be an opportunity to do so or change the narrative and mindsets of these young stars? Because you know what they say, an idle mind is a devil's workshop. And of course, we see that there are lots of these young stars who are idling away there. What are you doing? Well, because Boko are involved in this violent extremism, members of the Boko Haram, or Iswab, or bandit, a lot of them from their identity do not belong to the religion that I profess. But notwithstanding, I know that as a Christian leader, I have tea, I have organized seminars and workshops to remind young Christians that, look, when you take dagger against a fellow citizen, you are not depending on God, you are not protecting Christianity, you are not serving God, you are doing evil. And if the law cut up with you, I will not defend you, never use the name of our faith to defend you, because there's nowhere in scripture that you are encouraged to do that. I remember sometimes ago, one of the clerics in Kaduna told us that that was what he wanted to do, that is Sheikh Abu Bakal Gumi, when he started going to the forest to speak with this bandit. Our understanding was that he was going there to speak to them, to understand faith, and to stop doing evil, and to stop the rising fellow citizen. Unfortunately, when he came back, instead of talking about preaching to them, he was beginning to give them a new title and defending the reason why they are doing what they are doing. So that's where some of us differ. But the truth is that we need religious leaders who will go to this kind of people, preach to them about faith, because they do this in the name of religion. When they even kill, they shout the name of God. Is God asking you to go and kill his people? Is God sending you to go and destroy innocent lives? I don't believe you are depending on God. Completely, you can see, other evil has overtaken him, who he is completely ignorant. An opportunity, we don't have a government that is capable of dealing with criminals. So they hide, people hide under religion to do every evil, because the law will not catch up with them. You see, I used to share the view of one of our very respected religious leaders. Whenever he talks about this intolerance going on in Northern Nigeria, and in Nigeria as a whole, he will say that it's because of the failure of government to arrest perpetrators of evil, and as on it, you call him a religious writer. That is quite unfortunate. Someone who concept my house ablaze or set my church ablaze, and all you do is that you say it is a religious riot. So you just hide the criminal by giving me a good title. If he is an as on it, he's an as on it. Go after him as an as on it. Go after him as a criminal. Then the law cut up with him. But when you say it is a religious riot, the next thing the government will do is to call religious leaders together, bring him a remain and beam them on TV and say, religious leaders have been asked to tell their pet food to be tolerance. That is not the matter. That man has been indoctrinated. That man is evil. That man does not respect the law, and the law should teach him how to be a responsible citizen. Interesting. Let's talk about the politicization of all of this, because you see, you have also talked about the failure of government to deal with the perpetrators. And just to add, the police is still investigating and trying to find the perpetrators of Deborah, and you have said that if there is some form of punitive measures, maybe we would have a lower number of people perpetrating these acts of violence. But then let's talk about the politicization of it. Recently, what has been in the news other than people looking at how they can actively participate in the elections? What was making the news was the Muslim-Muslim ticket. And I think you and I have even had a go at that particular conversation as to why there has to be fairness. But many people would say, why should we in 2022 be talking about the religion of a political party flag bearer, or the person who is running mates? Why should we be talking about that as opposed to the competence of these persons if we are not, one way or the other, still fueling the embers of religious intolerance? Simply, we are talking about it because of the absence of tolerance. We live in this country, we know how we have seen intolerance, we live in this country, we know how people have come and cry out about what is happening in their community and nobody seems to pay attention. And the simple reason why attention is not given is because either you do not share the same faith with them or you do not share the same ethnic group with them. So people begin to feel, okay, if government is about having a say or having your person represented, then let there be fairness. If you have a situation where leaders are not responsible to what is right, leaders don't stand to defend the people for what is right, but leaders turn their ears, turn their eyes on things, it will be falling somebody just because it is not of their faith or not of their identity, then you find this kind of cry you are talking about. That is true. We are supposed to at this time be looking for a competent leader, a leader who will deliver the goods. Wait, wait a minute. Before you talk about competence, before you talk about leader who will deliver the goods, who is that leader? Yeah, it's very interesting that she asked that question, but again, people would say that just as you said, we're looking, we're politicizing even the religion of, you know, whoever it is. For example, if I say that I can change certain things in Nigeria, should you not be looking at my pedigree, should you not look at my antecedents and all the things that I've done, as opposed to what, where I wash it or who I bow down to? If you really start, that we are actually refusing to reason that the issue the Christian association raised concerning what is going on is far deeper than the words we are using in the space here. Wait a minute, let's look at Shetima. I don't want to talk about it, but it seems because I don't want to allow this discussion to turn. Shetima have a lot of issues to answer, to clarify about his role with Boko Haram. So why can't we not talk about religion when people like that are involved and be called to deputize as government? So he's really honest to ourselves. Why can't we talk about the cases that are, the allegations that are against him as opposed to his religion? Why can't we just talk about the fact that this man has been made in so and so groups as opposed to, oh, he's a Muslim. Why is the Muslim being given a running mate? What I've just simply said is that it is not a lie that when one of the notorious killer or the mastermind of the killing in the in Madela was sad, where did they find him? Have they responded? Did they just play with the issue of Muslim tickets? We're talking about if you are a Muslim, who is Muslim that we can vouch for that? That speaks against the Muslim. That speaks against the Muslim. Anybody because we cry out and look at the question about if truly there is really that matter, let's have a Christian ticket. You will not have a studio. I think that we're having a little distortion from your from your end, I spare your sound. You're going in and out. Let's see if we can try that again. I don't know if it's the movement or your audio. Okay. Try again. Let's see if your audio is stable. Is that the Christian station that you're talking about Muslim, Muslim, look, reality, lack of lack of respect that is happening and none of the political gladiators would at that. We are living in a time that we have to tell you. I'm so sorry. We're unable to hear you or make out anything that you're saying. We're going to try to see if we can get that audio line back on track, but we'll take a quick break now and we'll be back to conclude this. Thank you for staying with us. It's still plus politics and we've been speaking with Reverend Joseph Hayab. Of course he is of the Christian Association of Nigeria, Kaduna State Chapter, and we've been talking about the issue of religious intolerance, of course, as we get ready for the 2023 elections. Now, Reverend Hayab, before we went on that break, you are still talking about the role that political gladiators play and, you know, the reason why we should continue to have that conversation about the Muslim Muslim ticket. Well, we don't think we need to continue the competition. Our understanding is simply is that the political party took a decision and we have cleared our view about that decision. So what is left is for us to see what is going to play on between now and February when we shall go out to cast our votes. But what we are simply saying is that the reason why people are even showing an equipment concern is because of lack of tolerance that we have been in few areas we have searched as practice. You see, when leaders embrace everybody, accept everybody, listen to everybody, and you can go there to cry and show your concern and they will attend to you. Nobody will be talking about the identity or the religious of a leader. But when people block their ears from listening to you, they don't even care what you feel. They kill you, you cry and they blame you for crying. What do you do? Hmm. Finally, let's talk solutions. I always like to look at, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel. How long do you think that we're going to go through this dark place of always having to deal with issues of blasphemy, religious intolerance, being that again, Nigeria is at the precipice and we need more than ever to band together and see ourselves first as Nigerians as opposed to, you know, Christians or Muslims. But again, what are the peace-building strategies that we must, you know, undertake if we must be able to cement this very, very troubled water? Yeah, quickly, we must learn and deliberately begin to respect one another. See, everybody feels bad if he is being disrespected or his voice is not being heard. We must create an inclusive avenue where every voice will be heard. How do we go about what is our disturbances at the country? How do we address them? Which one is and every one of us should play? But when we isolate others, when we exclude others, we are breathing and giving back to this kind of situation. And as religious leaders, we must continuously teach our fellow faithful to respect, embrace and accept people of other faith. What I do tell people is that I don't just want to talk about religious tolerance. I want to practice tolerance. I want to demonstrate tolerance. I want to show tolerance by accepting others into my home, others into my church, and they too should accept me into their home and into their mosques. And when I go to their places, I go with respect, understanding who they are. I believe people for what they can contribute, not about their identity. So we must deliberately help our young ones in school and everywhere. But when students are in school and in school, they are beginning to see that they are not being respected because of their faith. How will they grow? They will think that this community does not respect my faith, does not accept my faith. So they will form their prejudice. So when they speak out, don't blame them, blame the system that created that picture in their minds. How do religious bodies like yours and faith religious leaders like you and the rest who belong to the Religious Council, partner with government or bring government in on this, because of course the government will say on this part that it's talking tough, it's dealing with insecurity, it's on top of the matter, they leave no stone unturned. But we know in reality, there's a lot more water under the bridge. But we want to ask, how do you intend to make sure that government works with you? You know just about intention, what are we doing? The religious leaders are really talking. There has been a good synergy between Supreme Council of Islamic Affairs and the Christian Association of Nigeria. Despite all this mistrust that is happening, there is synergy between these two groups. Recently the Global Peace Foundation supported the Tutan of Sokoto and the Khan President to attend a program in Washington where they discussed on how to help these two religious bodies to work out ways that together they can address this tension. And they even sign a pact. So you know signing a pact enables them to begin to work towards achieving it. So progress is being made. I know what is going on in Narek. Efforts are going on there. The truth about it is that not that there are no efforts going on, but this effort must be supported by the government. Not supporting by giving money. No. When we agree on how to work together in peace, government should not come with policies that will further divide up. Because when religious leaders are talking, meeting together, agreeing to find solutions to these issues, then government will come with policies that divide the people. It is natural for the people to voice out consigns. When consigns are voiced out, another new tension is developed in the community. Okay. Well, Reverend Hayab, this is a very interesting conversation. I would love to continue, but then time is not on our side. Reverend Joseph Hayab is the chairman of the Christian Association of Nigeria in Kaduna State. And of course he works with the Global Peace Foundation. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. All right. Well, that's it on the show. We'll take a quick break. When we come back, we'll be talking about yesterday's recap on the conversation about the electoral act and of course the plot by political gladiators to go against it. Stay with us.