 Yeah, okay, so so max is max is unfortunately not with us today, so I will take the introduction to these So welcome to another meeting of the conservation side of the Cephes S seminar for this year And we have the distinct honor and privilege to have Professor better than also that song with us Who has worked on all kinds of cool stuff? It would take me too long to even describe history of chemistry history of environmental science Most notable as as the kind of precursors to this to this work But now doing cool stuff on on conservation about diversity as well. So we're really pleased Ever here to talk on soils as ecosystem services. So please Thank you for the invitation Should I speak English or French what you would you like? English is English is better and so I'm really pleased to be here and for the first time in this building which is kind of utopian building and What I'm going to present is in fact the the results of A research that we conducted I say we because I'm a member of and I'm the Vice president of the Essex committee of in Rae So in Rae Which is the agricultural research agency in France if remer which is for the marine and the fishery Seerad which is for development agriculture agriculture and development and ERD which is for Institute of Research and Development and We in this ethics committee. We were Working on how can we really adjust the two missions main missions of all these committees which are to Secure the agricultural resources for these countries and at the same time to Preserve the the environment the landscape. This is the dual the double mission of all these national agencies and Of course, there are sometimes conflict between the requirements of feeding an increasing population and That means producing more and more crops and Preserving the environment and we decided to Work on two specific aspects of the this huge problem on Waters and we have been working for one year one and a half on the distribution and of water and Fair distribution of water and use of waters and On soils So I've been in charge of the soil Opinion and why did we specifically? focus on so because they are key actors of course for agriculture and for food production for increasing human population and Soil are I can say the ground for any agriculture Have to be preserved for agricultural reason, but they are also living environments And they are home to a wide variety of organism that perform a number of ecological functions including storing CO2 for Climate change regulating climate change So how to articulate these two aspects that was The the question that we have been trying to address and for this we were relying on all All the alerts that have been Launches over the past ten years about soul soil detail deterioration and There are many many Agency now that are really Introducing and raising the issue of soil even the IPCC Which in the beginning didn't take into account the question of soil have now they have introduced Because it's it's part of the climate regulation as I mentioned, but also our behavior with the soil will be Extremely important for the future climate and the alerts are Driven motivated by two major Problem there is a huge soil retrogration what we call retrogation because of the movement of organization Artificialization of soil is a major major issue especially in the 20th century with the increasing movement all over the world from the Movement of the population from the country to towns and especially bigger and bigger towns There is an increasing Artificialization of soil not only in Europe But in many many thousand countries where there is absolutely no regulation for that and It's a major source of soil deterioration another Major issue as you may know of already is soil degradation. Why because because of industrial Industrialization there is a lot of Pollution many many soil have been polluted by the extraction industries especially around the mines and as you may know this kind of extraction remains the population with heavy metals especially and Remains for a long time. There is also the problem of pollution with Inuclear radio-nucleides due to either Extraction of uranium in some countries, especially in Africa and And with the older death, so it's pollution is really major major issue for soil and there is also erosion of course because the use of in agriculture the use of more and more mechanic Equipments mechanical equipments and Which didn't preserve the Surface of the soil. So when I take I should have said that from the beginning So I mean the 30 centimeters. It's very it's very it's not heavy It's it's a film. I would say If you remember the it's better. It's really a mediating zone So it is very important because it's 30 centimeter and it means that Below that you have the minerals the rocks the senior but this 30 centimeter or 50 centimeters have to be extremely Rich and that's the problem and it's also very important because it's the interface between the atmosphere and between the air and the the the ground and For this reason, it's also the medium through which water filters and circulate and it plays an important role for the regulation of waters So many many aspect earth water air and I would say fire also the four elements present here and So the degradation of soil is really now a big issue that the United Nations Have taken on board recently the global view is really alarming 40 24 billion tons of fertile soil are lost every year mainly because of urbanization and there is an acceleration of that and 33% of all soils degradation is due to agriculture or Pollution it means to human agency. I mean either agriculture or pollution so Soil is could also in a certain and it could not be a marker of the Anthropocene because it's not lasting for the marker for the Anthropocene has to last for many many centuries and Soil are changing all the time But it's a mark of the Anthropocene of the action of humans on the on the planet earth And they are really the victim of The industrial revolution and the agricultural revolution the green revolution of the 20th century So what I'm going to Present it's a very short overview a Historical glimpse just to show the how our view of soil has been changing over the past 50 years and it's really important to see that the Our view of soil is changing but our action of soil on soil has a Durable impact So there is a in my view. This is part of the problem. There is there is a Contrast between our changing view of this milieu and I say a milieu and the the long-term impact of our action on this milieu which will last long after we can try to remedy to the disasters and Then I will present the how this change have affected our way of managing soils From soil quality to soil health Today the catch word is Health and soil health. What does it mean soil health and then from soil health to a more recent concept, which is now extremely successful and has been taken up by all stakeholders and which is Ecosystem service soil as ecosystem service. So I will discuss these two concepts health and ecosystem service So from a historical perspective, you may remember whatever age you are that Soil was mainly a Place to grow food and that what I call the chemical paradigm has been really inaugurated in the In the 19th century, I would even say because I'm a historian of chemistry as you know by Lavoisier Lavoisier who was also a Abronome and a chemist and a fermier general as well and who was very good in accounting and in his Domain agricultural domain in the Loire Valley at Frechine he Managed his farm like like Like he managed his experiment in his lab. I mean balancing the input and the output and This became Really the paradigm for 19th century agronomy which developed according to the chemical paradigm Which has been really Stated and clearly stated by you students used to start living Who enjoyed and a tremendous success all over Europe and he Attracted students from all over Europe and his idea in his book. She may be killed a physiology Vegetal air agriculture is really that you have to balance the inputs and the output and some kilo The he used to say some kilo the blade means some kilo the fuming Hundred kilo of crop you have to balance it with a hundred kilo of manure and What you you you have to balance it's accounting chemistry and There is the the way to To achieve this program has been of course the substitution of Organic fertilizer Guano may it was the main one as you may remember the substitution of Organic fertilizer by synthetic fertilizers and this was made possible by the Haber Bosch process Which allowed the production of nitrogen which is one of the major fertilizer and that was the great era of the M. M. Pica and Piquet and Nitrogen phosphorus and potassium which was the the Miracle world the miracle cure to increase tremendously increase the productivity of soil and The productivity of soil are effectively be multiplied by ten and Over the since the in the 1950s and 1960s but Meanwhile, there has been a number of disasters May know the disaster of the dust ball especially in the Midwest which interfered with the Great Depression in the 1930s and That was the result of the application of this Agriculture which was both mechanical and chemical mechanical with deep plowing with tractors and which really provoked wind erosion and The dust ball has been something that has really marked the the history of agriculture and Doesn't mean that in the 1930s No one was interested in the micro Biology of soil there were research at that time and there were people who alerted but they they were not listen and the microbiological paradigm has really Be been a resurrected I would say reactivated recently because of the The disasters of The scoundrels I would say of the chemical companies Like Monte Santo Who really Used to Spread and overuse pesticide and fertilizers and In the 1970s When there was the the famous silent spring Alerted by Rachel Carson and the emergence of the environmental movement the some people Started to investigate alternatives to DDT, which was the main problem at the time and to investigate also Alternative fertilizers and there were also alerts about the problems of the the the biodiversity of soil because the The the soils are really Host for a home for many many microbes There are Here they say for in fact there are much more but all classifications as you know are faulty and They are in fact, five soil My problems types of soil microbes bacteria are by far the the bigger population of the soil and There are something like 10 billion of bacterial sale per gram of soil of of a normal soil a living soil, I would say and Of course this bacteria are extremely important for the direct Fixation of nitrogen which is extremely important and They are fungy fungy Fungi are everywhere Especially they are close to the roots of plants to the roots of Any any plants No roots who could spread without symbiosis with fungy and They are extremely important and in between the bacteria and fungy there is an intermediate species of micro microbes, which are the actinome mice sets and they are extremely important because they produce antibiotics for the plants because plants have their own natural antibiotics and they are produced by this They are algae of course and protozoa all kinds of protozoa and In In addition to microorganisms, there are many many it's a multi-scale niche I would say a multi-scale niche because there are all sorts of living organisms in soils Microflora and In particular there are many many diatoms Diatoms, you know this Extremely like for soils which are extremely important. There are minerals in between me and Microfauna and mesophona also and the macrofauna which is mainly made of worms and They all are the what we call the engineers and the workers of soil They work continuously reconstructing soil and they really Create soil as a living me you a living Environment we which has its own dynamics and The the expression the phrase souls has became fashionable in the 1990s especially when the the microbole Microbole paradigm became Prevailed and became predominant What is the definitions of souls has is it's the continuous capacity to function as a vital living ecosystem So it's interesting to see that soil is defined as ecosystem okay, and At the same time we'll see in the moment that it's defined as ecosystem service So we will have to to see the tensions between our dad and the The the health of soil is Something which depends on a number of parameters Of course claimants, which is especially the erosion Which depends on the internal Biodiversity of the soil the but it depends also of the regime of water and it depends also on the physical support on the geological support and because soil now view as living ecosystem They are also Something that has to be conserved that has to be protected. They are injured and we have seen that they are endangered and The idea that we have to preserve soil is now the basis of a huge program Supported by United Nations and the world FRO what is food administration? What is FOM food and agricultural organization? and they have defined the The principles of soil health the first one is to minimize our impact on soil But of course we cannot dispense with soil. That's the problem But how to minimize our? disturbance of soil to maximized by your diversity to Maximize soil cover. I mean to avoid to have a soil without cover because they are open to climate erosion and To maximize roots meaning to continuously have a plant cover on the soil Which means of course to avoid artificialization of soil and From protection In addition to protection there is also the idea that we have to remediate the disaster that have been caused to soil and a remediation became regeneration When we assume that the biological paradigm for soil so a remediation implies mainly Reducing pesticides and herbicides all chemical supplies for agriculture depolluting and There are huge programs for depollution of soil especially in Belgium Belgium has been really key for the launching of the depollution programs and There are a number of techniques Physical techniques like washing simply washing or thermal techniques and also chemical techniques like using surfactants to assemble things and There is also decontamination, which is another Business, you know decontamination from The landfills of many souls have been completely contaminated because they have been used as a landfills especially in the around the big urban centers and Around industrial places there are we have to decontaminate heavy metals around gas power station and Also now There is also decontamination of radioactivity for radioactivity and this decontamination extremely costly and very they take a lot of time and And And Now there are many attempts to use To use microbes to try to decontaminate and to re-engineer bacteria For purpose of decontamination of soils. So a synthetic biology is a key in this one and of course the major major measure for remediation is reforestation and afforestation and Forest is really and remains today the the major remedy natural remedy to To for soil Regeneration the problem as you may know is that every year there is a disk increase not in Europe But all over the world there is a decrease of forest you want to Creating forest where there were no forest Introducing forest and all these programs are driven by and this is where Now I'm really focusing on more epistemic and ethical aspects And what we have been trying to do in our perspective is really To show that the ethical problems raised by soil is not cannot be separated from epistemic issues and And for this reason we pointed out that the prevailing approach to soil today is a functional approach and What I call in my jargon as a philosopher of science a techno scientific approach Meaning that by functional Or techno scientific approach. I mean that when you study nature You are less interested in What it is you don't ask question. What is it? What is a bacteria or What is a molecule you are interested or how does it work? What does it do? What does it perform and what can I do with it? You see the the chain of questions So for me, this is really the the the dominant paradigm of techno science and this is the prevailing approach today in in agriculture and in all the The study of soil today. So this functional approach has consisted in defining soils health as the preservation of Soil functions and they have identified Four major Functions of soil water storage and filtration carbon capture and storage and Biological biodiversity of course and food or productive capacity What can we soil as support for agriculture? Okay, we realize that is that enough You can you realize that this functional approach is limited Only to technological aspects and we realize that there are many many many more functions Made by perform by soil today. Of course, it's a reservoir of biodiversity Of course, it's regulation of water cycles, but not only of Floods and right, but also it affects water quality Because the quality of water for you know, of course that now we drink better water in town That in the country because of the agricultural pollution of water of I don't know the word You understand of the of the ground soil By by the pesticides and so There are many other aspects and a climate regulation But also soil are key because they they They assume they they perform the mineralization of soil and the bacteria are key for the mineralization of soil and They are also They can also be used for making renewable energy You know that in many many places now you have solar for farms Which are on the soil Oh You also know that we can use agriculture for making biofuels So it's also a source of energy and they can also be a source of materials many many Housings are built with with soil With in the in the country the pizzer. I don't know the term in English But the the traditional Housing architectural Materials are made of a soil which is treated with With water they are also of course Key for infrastructure supports and that's the key of the problem of urbanization and In addition soil has many many cultural functions and Soil is First is it has an archeological function Soil is the memory of civilization Okay, and what are we going to do with that? we have to preserve the memory of centuries millennia of human civilization and Also, we know that soil has a symbolic value soil has a symbolic value as the The epitome of a nation the drug is sold in some countries and also soil in many many Civilization is something linked to the dead people Because this is where we all end finally and So the there is there are many many symbolic values So if we want to if we are now to move From the notion of soil as ecosystem or as a living milieu to the notion that is now prevailing in agriculture and everywhere in the management of soils the idea that soils are Ecosystem service we will have to take care of all these functions different services of This is the problem So what you may be familiar already? Are you familiar already with the notion of ecosystem service? No, so it's it's the it's a big deal And I was really surprised and I discovered thanks to this Opinion that we had to prepare for the ethics committee. I realized that I should have made a Google Google ground Now the ecosystem service you see that it's been it's the keyword in the over the past last two decades it's amazing and Why is it so successful as a definition for an ecosystem services in any positive benefit that wildlife or Ecosystems provide to people The benefits can be direct or indirect small or large and this is the official definition that has been approved and Which made it respectable I would say it was a definition adopted at the millennium ecosystem assessment 2001 and Which was an international assessment in the called by a United Nations and This definition is interesting because you note that it's kind of boundary notion It's a boundary object at the interface between science and a policy and the people who are using and Relying on this notion of soil as ecosystem today. There are many many stakeholders It's first and it was coined by International institutions like this millennium assessment by your diversity United Nations, which are something like it's international governance, I would say It's all now used by scientists and Engineers agronomal agronomal engineers. It's used by decision makers at the at all level local municipal National and international it's used by farmers even farmers are using this term and They for they when they fight at the Salon de la Reperture recently Paris You could see ecosystem service everyone It's even interesting It's also Used by environmental NGOs. It's used by investment investors and by land users and managers So why is it so successful and isn't that maybe it's too successful It was in the beginning. It was a simple metaphor, you know metaphor where that was used For really alerting people including farmers about the ecological damage of traditional agriculture and of the other model of intensive agriculture and This simple metaphor has been turned into something quite different into a real analytical tool for and research too and This scientific concept it's now a scientific concept and the scientific concept used for Quantification and metrics of soil and there is now an intensive research effort on soils Which is conducted both at the national and the European level and They are all relying on this notion of Ecosystem service and they have They are based on this classification of the service a provisioning regulating cultural and supporting So they have really integrated the idea of cultural service also and They are trying to Make everything commensurable They are trying to make everything Compatible how do you say comparable and Commensurable it's a kind that you know the Ecosystem service approach with things as diverse as by your diversity Which is the number of worms that you have in one round of soil number of worms and bacteria and the cultural benefit of soil and the The storage of CO2 How how are you going to make all these commensurable? How are you going to make all these? Comparable, you know, you need a metrics. This is what I call universal universal scalability Universal scalability is is key No to handle all ecological problems today and we are trying to Address all ecological issues today through this idea that we have to quantify We have to measure and we have to balance benefits costs and benefits But we have to manage to balance costs and benefits between things that are absolutely incomensurable and that's the problem of this ecosystem service a concept and We have Excuse me We have identified three different kinds of actors who use this term this phrase Soil as ecosystem service there are first the Scientist ecologist and agro ecologist of in Rae and other agencies there are Also the people in charge of economic valuation of soils And there are also the people in charge of soil governance which are Municipalities decision makers Infrastructures People who have to I don't know the term In this country for the management of the Management of the territory They have the special terminology in all country so what We have tried to do is to question the underlying views norms and values in this in all these actors in the use of ecosystem service So in the agro ecological perspective the purpose is and the use and it's extremely Helpful the notion of ecosystem Service is extremely fruitful to Understand and quantify the soil dynamics and They use all kinds of methods for that. They use of course chemical methods of the chemical analysis of soil they use also physical analysis of soils through Infiltration rates density the the texture and The porosity of soil and the compaction so they have all kind of physics study chemical study Biophysical studies and also biological ecological study of the the biodiversity and The main concern in this population. I would say indeed among these actors is to preserve the biodiversity of soil the main concern is to evaluate and to really and They really Develop they made epistemic choice which are and We argue which are also ethical choice choices and Especially they have a huge program in France of mapping The French soils It's a huge program conducted by in high and so in mapping Meaning means that they They they developed quantitative approach of To try to quantify how many micro how many organisms are in in soils in Gramps of soil all over the territory the French territory and They do that by Collecting samples and then they do high throughputs see a genome sequencing and they have So it's easy. It's an easy technique and it can be done they also Realize that it's not it's not enough to quantify the to quantify the the To to have access to the quantity of microorganisms of organism you also need to Look at the Their relation so it's not only the density of of microorganisms, but it's also the Network of organism how they They make and they call that the bacteria Facebook. I mean they realize that The more connected the microorganism are The the best is the quality the Health is the soil Okay It's true parasitism symbiosis and all kinds of synergies between microorganisms In any organism, you know that the main Synergy today is between roots plant roots and Fungi but in the in between the two you have bacteria who play also a key role So it's when all these species of microbes work together When there is a real synergy that it works well and it's healthy So how can you how do they evaluate that? So this is more complicated. They really have to do soil Biochemical analysis to understand the the dynamics of this soil So this is an approach a very interesting approach developed thanks to the notion of ecosystem service and One aspect of ecosystem another is Another kind of Use of ecosystem service is the restoration dynamics because it's not enough to know the quantity of life in a soil and How this the various forms of life interact you also have to understand the dynamics the temporal dynamics of this life because they have realized doing soil coring of Soil of damage soil for restoring purpose. They have realized that the Dynamic of soil is a major issue It's a major issue because you have to adjust the dynamics of all the various life lives Which co-exist in the soil for instance for warmth to Recolonize Soil you need at least one year But for microbes to recolonize you need three years And the life of warmth also depends on that of microbes So how are you going to synchronize everything? You know, it's a major major issue and So it's one aspect where the notion of Ecosystem service has been really beneficial But if you look and at the same time If We try to ask them well, but why do you so much praise by your diversity and the answer was not always the same you know and For them, it's by your diversity because by your diversity is the means for something For others is no because it's my other city For some of the it's I don't know. It's warms. There are the people in the world the worm scientists They are crazy about words And they would sacrifice everything for once they're really passionate and but you know and Because of that they have tried to develop mighty multi-criteria tools To really connect all the the aspects of biodiversity and Here again, so you can have a look at the biofuctal tool It's an open access. I see and it's interesting to to see her there and But the value of biodiversity Remains in my view relative to the type of Functionality they have to test so it's not really consensual now if we look at the people in charge of the economic valuation of souls people in charge of economic valuation of souls there are many engineers and and Scientist in charge of agriculture and territories and things like that and What they have in mind and they want to evaluate the cost and benefits of soil health and they evaluate the cost of Lost biodiversity for instance They have established that there is a 30% decrease of crops A certain part a 30% decrease of biodiversity will Generate 50% loss of food for the crop productivity and They are also in charge of evaluating the cost of soil restoration so they are extremely important to them and They don't are they are not driven by the same values whereas the scientists In charge of evaluating the by biodiversity were really driven by what I call Ecoscentric values Ecoscentric values They were really concerned by Biodiversity and ecosystem Health whereas in this case they are driven by anthropocentric norms and values It's more utilitarian approach of nature and I mean that It's soils are good for something and Nevertheless in this case they really they are concerned by the inherent value intrinsic value of soil per Hectare and per year So it's not it's half Ecoscentric and half anthropocentric I would say but it's mainly the notion of service for human purpose and especially for In a utilitarian approach And this has raised very interesting half epistemic half ethical questions You For instance which service is the most valuable is it provisioning regulating control which one and If you have to establish Cost-benefit analysis You have to evaluate that you have to make a hierarchy to prioritize this service and And a service for who and they are not the same for the providers of Ecosystem service like farmers and for the users of ecosystem service. Let's for instance if you are Living in a town you are You enjoy the country for recreation and You don't we are not expecting the same ecosystem value value service as the farmer or as someone else on which scale and The major question is is it for short term or long term? You have to evaluate the ecosystem service It's difficult of course soil for instance if I have to evaluate the Carb a co2 storage by soil which is important Okay, first I have to ask do I evaluate estimate The co2 storage or Organic carbon storage, which is not the same And sometimes it can be conflictual antagonist second If I have to evaluate this is it it was not be the same the first year If I plant a forest, okay And where there was nothing before of course I will have a benefit Benefit but the second year and the third year will it be the same day? So I have to evaluate over time and that makes the work The third kind of people is the decision makers the people in charge of policy Soil policy and they have to take legal measures of conservation they have to find financial incentives find regulations for instance for co2 Storage or You have to pay the farmers to to encourage them to do that Of course, you have to apply remuneration or compensation mechanism like If I plant a forest here that will compensate The pollution that I made in Brussels and I will plant a forest in Flanders somewhere and that's okay Okay, so how are you going to do this is the kind of thing they are doing So they are in charge of this kind of compromises and Here again, we are faced with epistemic choice Today The unit of measurement is money It's a market-based economy and It's a market-based ecosystem service notion it's based on the the unit of the co2 equivalent and It's a kind kind. It's analogous to the carbon trading and It means that we are really in charge of this kind of neoliberal system and the ecosystem service Has really been extremely successful because we are in a market economy and This raises a number of problems because it encouraged good and harmful measures in particular you can use this market value to encourage people to do agroecology of course, but at the same time the Anti-green Farmers and there are there are some there are some hard-thinking Farmers who say well if you want me to stop because I'm losing productivity if I'm not using fertilizers or besides then you have to pay me Okay, and if you don't pay me and I will destroy continue to destroy my soil. Okay, so it works both sides and From an ethical perspective, it's a disaster It's a complete disaster Because it's the place where from an ethical perspective. It's the place where the traditional consequentialist neoliberal consequentialist approach cost-benefits analysis becomes completely non-ethical in this case So there are more of dilemma evaluation is it possible to To still use the notion of ecosystem service for soil regeneration Without commodification of nature Soils are ecosystems Service certainly but Should we do deal with that as private goods or are there commons? There is today a movement to to consider soils as Ecosystem service. Okay, but as commons There are commons by because the most of the service that they are performing are public Services, they are public goods services like regulating climate providing food for for humanities and that's it like that. So they hence the idea of ecological soil literate Which is one of the slogan today It's that the idea is that we should share constant benefits of a better management of soils. So To wrap up to wrap up I would say that we have moved from a plant-centered Agronomy to a soil-centered agroecology over the past 50 years Soil is now view as a dynamic milieu And this milieu is the result of a long history and This history is a hybrid history. I would say it's The history of natural history, but it's also our human history of The Green Revolution So soil is a hybrid natural and socially constructed resources and it has to be addressed like that And there is a huge tension between two ethical approaches soil is today Manage The management of soil today is the mirror of the dominant neoliberal system But soil is also maybe the potential for more Solidare or collective action and second wrap up The ecosystem approach is also Today I will say Tom between two kinds of approaches according to Who use this term and this tension is not resolved this tension is really here It's the tension between a kind of care ethics based on Eco-centric approach and a utilitarian is to mentally ethics and That's all and I thank you for your attention So we take our semi-standard quick five-minute break people a chance to Questions and come back Yes, happy to take any questions What and all the theories we have in philosophy of medicine about health, but it's disease and Sounds like you philosophy of medicine have a lot of interesting tools for this case Like social model of disease or health or the capabilities approach that focus on what What you are capable of and what makes you happy and so on then that's second point Which is This whole side Question could also be framed as a public health question because you mentioned you mentioned So it is a public good, but it could also be a public health good. I mean, yes and with a public health approach you have a Entreposentric approach you even have a bit in a terrain approach if you don't have this You know Yeah, the notion of health Applied to soil is is in fact only one aspect on on the the I could I say that the one of the broad view of health. I would say the health cessation of everything today. I Mean it's a especially soil are One aspect of the big project today of which is called one health Okay, which means human health Environment health and the what is the And the animal So it's it's everything Healthy should be healthy today that this is something that I would really like to work on Why this is it so fashionable? Why is the this Health has completely changed the view of disease and is is really changing the view of disease and In my view It's a more it's a broad issue. It's not just for soil. So I'm now I'm trying to follow the program one health To see what's there how they are working and one as an interesting aspect is that this one health Program includes a lot of research on Exposure Exposure to danger, which is quite new So it's creating new Fields of research no research fields. I mean at least for from a heuristic point of view. It's extremely heuristic but from an ethical point of view Anyway, it's it's a good question because I don't know and the second question was Yeah I want somewhat Yeah, it is It is both sure if you have this public health of you and maybe it's a way to really Find a compromise and develop a Perspective of solidarity as they call it because the comments the comments approach raises many many low issues because soil is is Is a property? It's not a common today and you're in most countries in Europe and To transform so especially and we know the price of land in urban Areas, so it's a real problem and maybe the the public health parameter could help Develop a more Solidary approach to that Functionality Techno-certific Yeah I mean the first is about epistemic And it seemed that there was a switch from Quality so to epistemic service, but it remains a kind of functional approach what I would call Engineering rationality and so I wonder if there is all the kind of rationality like the romantic one You know the farmer love the soul and you look at it every day Afterward he cared about the soul and it will be like a kind of Ethic of care or something like this I wonder if it if it does exist and so it leads to the second question, which is if you have a project to increase Ecosystemic service, will you include the farmer because it seems to be very Top-down yeah, you look to be able to all you take policy decision, but I wonder if there is also Interrelation, yeah all the Final answer the final question very relative is about permaculture I wonder if permaculture is a kind of answer to the first two question I ask What's the position of permaculture inside what you have described, you know in your system Yeah, so the first question repeated The rationality in fact in fact the The the conflict between this rationality. This is why I try to to distinguish The three approaches to the notion of soil as Ecosystemic service But in fact they are not it's just an ethical It's analytical Distinction, but in all cases they are all together They are working all together. It's not top-down at all the people from Syrah in France. They work with African farmers and with big companies who want to Plant bananas or I don't know what in this and with the local authorities who want to To raise money and okay So all these kinds of approach they are they are on each case study They are they enter intention and conflict So it's not and especially in Africa what they The the scientists that we have been working with appointed is that it's in Africa the farmers they They work on their Their land, but it's also the land of their ancestors and it has a special value Which is absolutely Incommonable with the problem of economic development And they there is no balance and they have to really make decisions balancing these two heterogeneous Values and so it's really important they love their love and soil is in an interesting paradigmatic case study For this kind of what I call universal scalability approach because there is a lot of affects Link to so there is a lot of emotions, you know Coming back to my land Nostalgia of the land Including fascist The fascist Fondness for soil, you know, so it's it's it's very interesting. It's a good case study for that because it's really difficult to to use this Universal scalability approach which is developed with the concept of Ecosystem and the second question Forgot it in between And permaculture Yeah, we'll pull my culture culture So it's a response to the problem It's a response because it's a way to care for soil, of course and at the same time is a completely Artificialization of soil not not in the sense of damaging soil, but it's really re-engineering the soil and Permaculture is really an example of this move that I Identify from plants to soil you care more for as much for soil as for the crop which is Coming out of it and Permaculture is really important for that. I'm gonna let it max from online who asks Can you explain a little bit more about how the commons approach to soil would work or works now or would work if we were to implement? Yeah, we have tried to to find Documentation about that. It's not easy Yeah, there are some Approaches it's difficult as I mentioned because soil is really property and And at least land that land is sorry, you know, it's and And because of all this Market, so there There are many aspects, but from a low point of view there. There is no way to to there in France there there is An alternative which could be a compromise solution Which is To have what they what do they call that? Enterprise a mission social or a multi mission Enterprise to register your land property or your farm as a company With multiple functions multiple missions functions in including Providing food providing ecological service and Providing fairness okay, so this is a legal status and It's the guy who is promoting that he is a former Abrona engineer and He's really trying to promote this kind of Turning your your farm into But to recreate comments with so it's very very difficult There is a cooperative of course system the corp system, but it's not really The the carbon property. It's a calm one Management, but it's not a common property Just to jump on that do we have but we have historical example recent like foundation of Israel a lot of common land kibbutz Communist country, maybe there's something to to learn from them when we When when you see what has come out of Of the cold cause and the kibbutz 50 years after what is left not much But maybe I don't know maybe they learn something at least with or because maybe it's At least in a first step to study them to not to reinvent the wheel But anyway, it's the person the scholar was work best on comments is a Liana Austin and and She really tried to to Suggest a number of solutions and but For for the soil. It's extremely difficult today Also, I wonder if the communist model will be interesting It doesn't it doesn't implies the kind of easement or necessarily, but it's true Historically But but prior to this 20th century experiments, I would say experience There were there were the comments the comments existed in Great Britain and They have been existing for centuries So it's it's not we are not due to property But it's sure that In my view the legal question is one of the most Important today the legal response is really important I Had a question about this Agroecology Me a bit like conservation myology its crisis discipline is a weird mix of values and science It's even more interesting. I think because there are these these two Sort of opposite values like And I wonder if Studying this how do scientists deal with this tradeoff in these two values are there ways of managing And do they deal with this explicitly or is it more that there is like one set of This Yeah, it's really influence and I would say there are two levels of response there is the institutional response and individual response Institutional response is We assume both missions. It's it's written, you know, if you look at the chart of the French Agricultural agency, and I don't know in this country, but I guess it's the same All European countries at least They really assume the that they their mission is not only to provide food but is also to protect landscape and environment and This is official and Officially they have had a number of other disciplines that have added many disciplines in the Their stuff they have a sociology department. They have anthropology departments, they have economy departments and Normally each program Research program should include all departments normally And at the individual levels according to their training They are more sensitive to one aspect or two another As I told you people warm scientists, they're crazy about worms and they don't care about humans No, I'm kidding that I mean There is always this affect with your research object, but today among as far as I Follow them the the young scientist of in Rae and Seerad in France are really angry with their Institution organization they accuse the boss to do greenwashing and they are protesting today against this kind of Greenwashing of in Rae and and Especially Seerad because why because in Rae is a national agency which Receives money from the state It's not the case of Seerad and Yerde. They are also national agency But they have to find sponsor to to to find out to find their research So they are they have to negotiate Formerly they negotiated with chemical company. It was okay, you know for them the time of Monsanto was okay. They received a lot of money, but now it's much more difficult and So it's for them They are they are tempted to to you know to to do compromise and Many many of the young researchers I am working with Through the ethics committee They they are really angry at that and they say it's not only that we have to revise our practice of research Meaning we don't want to fly Over Atlantic just for giving a talk or just for an annual conference of whatever But of course because they work in Africa or they work in Indonesia. They have to fly a lot And they say we also want to be to change our research subjects and Of course, they are doing a lot of participatory research You know this word participatory research meaning that in their research. They involved a lot of local farmers And local authorities They're obliged they have no choice Because they they they receive part of their funding can come from the localities So they are more concerned with the local point of view the standpoint of the locals rather than the The scientific universal scientific Respect so I don't know in this country if you have faced also with this scientist rebellion But in in France it's become it's very important in Switzerland in Germany and It's in France it's It's especially important among in agronomy department agricultural science They are more concerned most concerned Thank you for the talk About the acroecology perspective You you said that in the ethical question that they were more a Ecosentric norms and values, but that could be a lot of stuff So so could you elaborate a little bit more on what kind of norms that are guiding because a little bit later You said relative to the type of functionality test for we are interested in yeah, it's difficult. Is it a big is there one kind that most of them follow a kind of Environmental ethics simplicity or is it very diversify? Yeah, I didn't know it's I just created this analytical categories, but they're they're fictions In each case Yeah, in each case, I would say there is a spectrum from the young scientist who is really Convinced by Ecoscentric the young ecologist who is really Ecoscentric up to the decision maker who will the bank invent Who is mainly trying to make money out of it? So there is a white spectrum and I should instead of making categories I should have just pointed to this spectrum from the most Ecoscentric to the most Anthropocentric and Bank-centric I should say But Among the Ecoscentric values, there are also many new ones Especially among a go ecologist I mean working at in hi Some of them are more concerned with I would say I The ecology of Of the milieu they are working on but other ones are more evolutionary biologists and Evolutionary biologists they are much more sensitive to the problem of the long-term and And Sometimes they really come into conflict. That's why I mentioned the problem of the dynamics of soil Because sometimes there are conflicts between the short-term restoration of soil and long-term restoration and for evolutionary biologists. It's really the Sometimes for them. It's the medium term. They're interested in so it's you know, there are all kinds of new ones I should have really show a spectrum rather than trying to divide up these categories Which doesn't make sense Thank you for your talk This but it's just maybe you just want to know a comment one thing The reason for why we also very concerned with so the emotion It's a time skill because it takes time to form so It's it's quick to destroy them but it takes it takes time to restore them And the other question comment or question is about And what what is the soil because you started by saying we can say soil is first 30 to 50 centimeter in depth But actually it can be much Thicker than that much thinner and I think for many people soil is not something they would call it the earth the ground But soil it's something that may not be so It's a comp not a concept. It's something that people are not this is a familiar with and I'm just Wondering whether we already starting with a problem here, and I'm sure you know this Or the notion of the critical zone. Yeah, which it's another way to Approach it so it is the critical zone of the critical zone. Yeah I Mean it's really the the center of the critical zone and of course so on this Locust you can see all the problems of the critical zone, which is mainly a problem of circulation and what we really need in my view, but I just Share the view with you. It's not we need a real process approach to that and and no longer Division, you know dividing zones or Dividing categories we really need to to Look at the circulation of states and of the flux the flu Flow of materials the flow of energy Between them rather than focusing just on soil We really need to address the issue of soil in Connection to other issues, but of course we need specialists of soils At the same time that the specialist of soil should keep in mind all the cost me in the earth circulation You know the critical lot to know it's not like to ration and say that it's it's a concept elaborated a coin by by Geologists which has been taken up by Bruno Latour To address the issue of the of Gaia or the Anthropocene and The the critical zone is this zone between we are of the planet Earth Which is Which includes the atmosphere The ocean the soil and which is between the stratosphere and The earth crust this is where we live so it's the the habitat of all living beings as Long as there there is life on earth It's the habitat of all living beings and This is the concept of critical zone the idea being that we have to refocus science on this zone Because this is where the future of life on earth lies Actually, that's that's a great so I want to pick up on something that you were just talking about because one thing that it occurred to me and I understand why in the context of An ethics committee this needed to do the report needed to look this way, but one thing that I noticed was was Not as present in the talk as I thought it might have been Was exactly this question of so what are the natural cycles behind all of these processes? How how would these things regenerate in the absence of any human interaction? And I wonder What was that was that a part of the analysis as well or is this really focused on kind of anthropocentric drivers and Human interaction and so there wasn't as much room for those much longer time scale wasn't the target of your analysis to think about those long time scales in which, you know natural systems regenerate soil and And natural systems break down and degrade soil as well, etc Yeah, how does that play into to your analysis that gets to some of the questions that you were Yeah There were there are many people in favor of rewilding rewilding zones and This is not really we did not encounter this Project among the people we have been working with and I wonder why They don't they do not trust it They do not trust rewilding Why I Don't know There are some experiments of rewilding, but they are very local and if you address it in in the Medium or big scale global scale. It's impossible to rewind of course we have to produce food and we have to This is food security is is is remain a vital need and For this reason They are not too much concerned with rewilding and we didn't really encounter this Kind of conservationist I have to say that I was surprised about the neoliberal term appearing at the end because the the neoliberal economists from here and each university always Complaining that agriculture is the the example of a non-market driven system because it's always States are involved Giving a lot of money to farmers. Oh, yeah, so so it's another problem But but maybe neoliberal would not be the right term because it's a market system, but it's the neoliberal We can accuse them of a lot of stuff Agriculture is Free with free capitalism. You're right. You are right Money and people and they come here. It's all Europe money. Oh, you're a lot a lot of Europe money You're right. So so maybe the contrast is between market money when she was saying public goods and Private private goods. Yeah, you're right, but it's the I used the neoliberal term because you're French No, no, no, it's I used it because It's I had in mind that I didn't have in mind neoliberal in the sense of not no state intervention, but But believing that the market can make it Okay, the market can regulate So it was liberal, but neoliberal I may be a another slightly related point So so I just wonder this is very open-ended because you mentioned a sort of possibility for this at the end and I just wonder what How what do you think the possibility looks like to break I mean as you as you know this critique that ecosystem services are just a way to commodify everything You know, obviously this is now a fairly standard fairly standard criticism and we get it Get it a lot and I and I understand that yeah, obviously some people are using it exactly that way They just want they can put money on everything But you mentioned the possibility of trying to to intervene right here and kind of drive these two things apart and to Find ways to talk about these ecosystem services that aren't just a sort of hidden way to commodify the world What do you think what do you think what is your duty are in the end Do you think we should be we should be going that way or should we be trying to Should be more elitist about the ecosystem service concept. What's your where do you come down in the end? Yeah, I'm really it's it's a real question. It's a question of What impact of this universe of scalability? rationality has and can we Can we do without it? And it's it's a real problem, which is not Just for a source. It's a it's a problem for all issues today And it's so powerful I'm saying I have been working a lot on that with you and believe me. I Hate this guy But I must confess that his balance, you know, he's His way of Accounting everything and making commonsurable things that are absolutely not commonsurable Is very powerful. So from a scientific perspective we cannot dispense with that and And and and I understand the success of the why the notion of ecosystem service is so powerful It's so successful. It's it's a real instrument. You can leverage the world with that, you know But that's a problem. It's that you can leverage the world and you can colonize the world too and It's it's an instrument of domination. So when it comes to a Non-scientific point of view An ethical point of view or political point of view I change my my cap and I say well, it's not so It's not so why so but I'm really balanced, you know between the the heuristic power of universal scalability and The disaster that it can cause It's it's a real problem Maybe you're very stupid The discussions on soil seem to mainly have to do with soil as it is found on the ground Do the systemic and ethical issues change if you come if you think of Soil or something like soil in more artificial environments If you want to do buildings I mean, I can imagine our store Soil to conserve it Nothing else is possible. I don't know Can we because it seems to If you if you have to think of these kind of Situations that may become more important in the future It seems that it's more like a mobile good rather than something that is There and should be conserved as something that has to stay in this local place on the property of that While it's a mobile entity then then then these Notion of commons and so on may all Become I don't know whether this is in any sense Absolutely, it's it's relevant and it's it's one of the of the The idea that has been developed by Landscapers and urbanists And there are many many attempts to Recreate agriculture within the cities especially in Brussels and there has been Attempts to decontaminate places and many many Attempts to develop Green Not just green spaces, but also agriculture within the city and or to also to create Artificial soil that Agricultural soil on top of buildings or even on the facades of buildings So the soil is not really Rooted on the ground. It can be everywhere and the vertical you can have vertical soil for facades and So really and this is an interesting debate about balancing the The ecosystem service in urban agriculture Because there are many many benefits first to shortcut the the distribution circuit and to have local production which is would change many many things and And also for depollution, but there are also many many Homes different because of housing it's Always against the social housing and pushes people away from the city center and things like that So it's it's a real balance for them, but you're right. So it is not necessarily Because I feel like we were waiting for Can the soil be mobile? It's usually I would say Not so much because if you take it from one place to another one, you lose a lot of biodiversity So No, because it's also because the soil is just In between other it's dependent on earth on Sun it's dependent on everything, you know, so you cannot really transport or you change the ecosystem It's an ecosystem, but it's an ecosystem which is in within another ecosystem and dependent so it's really Of course, you can it's mobile, but Uncondition of the good environment If you move it to a certain point, you will need to Supply new nutrients because if you don't have this Yeah Three years you have to wait for three years. It's not an immediate return on investment One more you have the last question, yeah Okay, we need those foods for food production But there is now all this idea is more than an idea that so it can be used to Trap sequestries and come on carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. And so now we've seen so is as an object that we could manipulate through different agricultural practices or perhaps by adding crushed To consume Trout And I'm just I was just wondering whether or not this could be conflicting Because it is quite different perspectives one is Trying to preserve the source for Its fertility Yeah, the carbon storage for mitigating the global warming is really Important but also soil stores less than oceans Okay, and There is more CO2 stored in oceans and also because it depends what kind of Carbon you want to store? Is it organic storage or Organic carbon pardon or Oxidized carbon CO2 Okay, and we were interested in storing CO2 But not but for So so the carbon dioxide is taken up by the planet. Yeah, then the plan to compose and It turns into organic Yeah, so it is organic carbon is actually in this in the side but Carbon is also The the the sequestration of CO2. It's underneath. Yeah, so it's not it's not the soil It's underneath sequestration is really in the mines or it's under underneath so it's not competing Yeah, you're right All right with that. Thanks very much