 want recording is on so this is the fellowship of the link call for wednesday february 15th 2023 hello from the past yeah um and what does the agenda remind you of from last call that we were gonna yeah i think we have a few so so let's go we can do it that way shortly and perhaps we can do check-ins uh you want so some threats uh rm has brought up the archiving tool slash vinkar generator to discuss at some point i i had uh brought up interweek hearings and the common hub approach for search and entity resolution i guess we have discussed that and i added uh meaning you know how to cross link between uh different like you know massive weekies i would ask regardless and then we have further back i think i realized this because like uh we discussed last time we had like uh whether we want to define a calendar or use a calendar to synchronize keep track of all the different like uh things in this space that we are attending and also issue tracker or project tracker you want to do like bugs or something for share projects and also the wiki uh or your you know like where to like start adding for example if we had a calendar where would the link to the calendar be right so that's what we have so pkemen see started the calendar for ogm and other orders which is over sphere which we i'm certain could use or we may want to say i have some other sort of flavor of calendar but that exists as an attempt to say where are standing calls how do you join them where are there archives all that kind of stuff and then and then i have a topic function i wanted to figure out how you and i and anybody else on this call who wants to can share notes and and what does that mean uh it's kind of kind of what does it mean is an interesting conversation i'd like to be talking about which are notes right here right now like in the song from the notice the calendar sounds very good i'm just reviewing oh cool i have never seen this thank you it sort of fits so um and i i i i i have some kind of a calendar block somewhere in my neural systems because when i travel i will often misplace or displace uh appointments into the wrong zone i don't really know how to set my google calendar properly or how to set up new appointments properly when they're in other time zones in the future uh makes it makes me cranky because then i i like you know move things around around so and then every time i've tried to do a group calendar to do like ogm called early on i did something wrong and everybody was getting duplicate invites or something stupid like that i'm like no no no i'm just not gifted in the calendric direction don't know what it is about calendars so um just while we're talking calendars uh uh uh yeah i'll i guess i'm surprised that p choosing a google sheet i yeah i guess the problem with like regular calendar software is that they're not by week and they don't handle the time zone display really well i've been wanting to build something that would take an i cal file and display it in the time zone of the person that's viewing it based on their browser settings and then give them the chance to change it i haven't had time um in uh vincent and um trove has a calending system where they it automatically sends out invites that work in most calendar systems i think so it depends on what we're doing but i've been wanting to make a javascript viewer and also an availability calendar viewer that chose the time that are that are open and can download and can look at multiple i cal links and then consolidate it to just show you the open times for use on my own web page for to say my availability so there's some calendar stuff it's all pretty easy to do it's just finding the time uh no pun intended yeah yeah i've been using next cloud calendar with social cope yes completely yes we're like uh the four dimension we're all like uh like nice back start up the number but yes um yeah next cloud calendar is is seems to work and it does some how i call support and so on uh but i don't know if we have any next cloud instance i didn't know that next cloud had a calendar feature or something yeah it's seems okay yeah i'm i'm i'm mostly using google's i mean i work of course but like uh and i'm used to it i sort of like it but yeah next cloud seems fine but i think it's pretty easy actually uh you know and it has already the information it seems so for me i'm very much for mvp and like uh if you know sounds perfect yeah and for reducing duplication of effort yeah yeah and and and and then once we have this pressure of course we if i think we can do different things i think you know just take the pressure that i'm ported to uh to any to next cloud or whatever and then we can just show it to the group and right that's how we switch so as i'm concerned we have a calendar awesome and anything anything else about calendar what do you want that for me thank you for that yeah about how to share notes uh that i realized i thought big interesting um peter's right here yes uh uh but i don't know if he was also interested about that yes um so what do you think um yes how should we do it what do you think um so i i think i want to i'm interested in what different whoever has an opinion about what this looks like on this call i'd love to hear what we think this this is shaped like um my minimum viable sort of product or prototype on this is markdown files that we have sort of uh shared edit privileges over and we you know awkwardly control access uh contention over but that's okay that's a that's a very nice start because we're a bunch of us are kind of using massive wiki as a wiki proxy that isn't really a wiki but sort of is a wiki and that unfortunately because it doesn't implement crdt or any other kind of contention management protocol leaves us with contention problems and merging problems if we screw that up um but i'm i'm good with that because if we can start to build out these these wiki spaces and then just to add to the to the or a bit of mastic of issues um once you're talking github or wikis and then obsidian you're talking vaults and repose and namespaces and a bunch of other stuff that don't elegantly dovetail together and one of one of my dislikes of pydian is that when you change vaults your settings don't travel with you so you've suddenly got to reinstall and re-configure everything uh which is kind of ridiculous um and so and so so my mvp offer for note sharing is layered with these funny little complexities that i'm not that crazy about um so open to other visions of what note sharing kind of looks like and means uh and and on from there and then one last thing on the mvp my mvp of note sharing doesn't really include sharing the web of links that i see in the brain and i mentioned i think uh monday on the free jerry's brain call that i have a an open question in front of harlem hue the brains inventor about hey wouldn't it be cool if i could swap out their notes editor which they rewrote from scratch just last year i think for obsidian pointing wherever i put my files or whatever because right now i can go write a file in obsidian push it over to github go to the website builder massive wiki builder find the url to the new page over there because i can't get it from obsidian that doesn't actually work and maybe that's easy to do because it it should be relatively it should be very simple to generate if you can infer it again exactly if you can infer it you should be able to come up with the name of the page um and then i can add that new page to my brain manually and that is a really long run around but the result is that in my brain then i would be pointing to that page except it wouldn't be editable to anybody showing up it would just look like a website web page right so that's that's clumsy and not really very highly functional whatsoever and what i'm trying to do is cut through that so that as a brain user i can collaborate sharing the brain web thing and on monday we also did a brief screen share of the new the new web client for the brain called bolton have you guys seen it uh Bentley you were on monday's fault right yeah so you've seen it yeah maybe i should do a really brief screen share so that you all are familiar with it let me actually find it and uh make sure it's running properly there we go and then i have to do screen share in uh this app which is harder than usual uh the the app is so the beta the name for the beta for the new web client is vulcan and here's a i'll point to a i will point to a post from harlan about vulcan here we go uh here's the link on vulcan copy attachment and then taste then because i'm screen recording i don't know when i do screen sharing what that's going to do but we will find out shortly um so let me try to do a screen share of that uh where to go oh well you're thinking about yeah it's been a while since i looked at it but when you share a bidding in vaults there is a maybe a folder with a dot in front of it so it disappears on some systems right the folder that holds all the settings and you can and put a vault into a subfolder on your system so that when obsidian looks at it it uses your local preferred settings rather than the setting someone else dictated for that vault which helps create all kinds of issues with conflicts and things shifting around right um but the problem is it's a kind of programmer level type of thing you have to know it exists and how to get around it to be able to to get around that thing um but i've done it reasonably successfully with a handful of shared vaults that groups of us use so you download the thing and you essentially put it put the shared vault into a subfolder of your own and then it defaults to using your preferred methods um yeah if i can find some directions for it i'll give you a link or dump them somewhere thank you the other the other thing i'll note there is like if you do shared vaults with dropbox you can instruct dropbox to ignore the dot obsidian folder um and then obsidian will populate it automatically the first time you open the vault and also you can copy paste it in like like uh chris was talking about the other thing i'd note is like i don't know that's like the way they manage the dot obsidian folder is sort of my least favorite thing about obsidian because it is one folder but it includes like your plugin configuration but also like your last document open so if you're sharing a vault with someone and that's shared you end up with their last document open instead of your last document open it's a little messy yeah more messiness uh is everybody seeing my shared screen of the web client yes for the brain okay so nikola tesla on screen and this so historically the brain web client has always been inferior to the desktop and has little sort of not been as happy doing things uh what's happened now is they re this is a prototype but they're rewriting it and now adding back features but the eye icon on the upper right here if you click on the eye it switches between the plex view the brain's default view and this basically windows frames you know uh browser frames view uh and so here's nikola tesla and uh you know in uh and all the links that were in the display i just had are basically uh here again so here are parent thoughts almost famous ball lightning etc etc if i switch what it's doing by default is it goes through the parent thoughts and shows you all the children of that parent one at a time so that's what's happening on the left here is it's going through each of those and right this minute there's no way to limit how many things it shows so the parent the parent display is kind of messed up that way uh but this is just code you could change it around and my wish is to be able to get to a page where there's an editor here that is just whatever editor you like and if it's obsidian or whatever else and you can kind of plug it in or swap it in then you're off to the races uh editing directly in the brain now the brain has a native editor which is not featured in the web client version at least i don't think it is um let's see if i go to trust your resonance i don't get an edit thing of any kind down here so um but the brain itself uh every thought here's my my this is my new note my new thought for this for today's call in this sequence and uh so there's a notes field down below which is the new notes editor that they rewrote recently which is a full markdown editor plus plus like it's a it's a it's an all singing all dancing kind of editor because they discovered that they were using something like easy easy editor or something before as a plugin and a third of their support calls were for um problems with the editor so they're like let's just rewrite the editor anyway that should just sort of by by means of show and tell there cool did they they discussed like an ap an api so i they haven't talked so much about an api and they haven't had an api for a while because it sort of forces them to lock things down i at least that's the reasoning and it would be lovely to have an api so i don't i don't know i i want to ask about that oh and one more and one more thing is my intention is to next time i talk with harlin to describe if i can conceptually my desire for there to maybe be any and outie brains where what he's been building all along is an any brain which means you create notes for yourself in the brain in the notes editor and that means that he has full control over where the file is and how to index it and all that so search is fast all that but if you did outie brains you then let that suddenly greatly increases the shareability of the brain files because those outie files can exist in shared volumes uh that that that's exactly what we've been talking about here and because early on when i first configured the brain there was a feature that let you index any web page you pointed to it would index the contents of that page and make them searchable i turned that off at the beginning because i knew back then how quickly text search indices grow large and i i made a couple decisions way back then to keep the brain data file from like growing in garden to some garden to an extent which mostly most of which i'm happy to have done but i don't think you know that they're not if resources weren't uh weren't an issue they're not the kind of choices i might have made for the long run but i say that because indexing of a page hosted somewhere else doesn't seem ever to have been a problem for the brain so why not outie files instead of only just any files that you create so with that i'm complete on this this wish list for what would make the brain a better note sharing and you know a heterogeneous note sharing uh tool right so so if you want to pick up from that plantian and say like what does that mean for agora and for that be perfect yeah happy to i mean um so as as most of you will know like uh the agora is like the vision of the agora is that you tell an agora where your notes are and notes you know can stand for you know like your personal knowledge graph uh the links themselves in different formats but essentially where you're like you know these are like hardness to like maybe set alone the metaphor and the agora will try to integrate it for you and just keep doing it so it's like you know one time sign sign in will be ideal and then you can just continue to use your your workflows as they are and mostly ignore the agora if you want until you need it and uh on top of these there's like a bunch of async flows that you know we're experimenting with like you know maybe you write something in your notes and then the agora does something for you just by reading it in your notes so it's like it becomes like yet another reader but that's more on your UI level on the what it does now is really it just imports a few sources uh of which the most common is git just like a git repository you tell it a git repository and then it says like sure and then every 30 seconds currently an average or something the agora the reference agora it will just git pull and if every run into a problem because you did something that you know breaks git pull it will just recrone your repository it tries to like just get that data and like keep a copy um and that's pretty much uh what it does per garden and then it tries to integrate many different gardens within a one single agora using heuristics right so you know if if we all have like a node called fotl or philoshodilink or any variation we can inform they will that will all show up one after the other in some order in a location a node in the share so it's a share run it's conceptually it's like taking a lot of brains or your gardens to mix metaphors again and like try to like uh integrate them naively but eventually uh hopefully uh with with a greater utility and like uh sophistication uh now um so on the most concrete the most common format is important is markdown right but it's kind of something more important or mode and we also have uh fed wiki which is like well actually it's like it's text you know it's actually wiki format sometimes i mix format and repository or like a medium no but and and some tools are like both both a strong medium and a format so you know but in any case so markdown or mode some wiki formats like perrissa and the wiki one and uh some html actually actually there's some people who we have like a million backup for example there and like one or two warp websites so in this context and so this shapes what i think i mean actually this is actually shaped by how how i think i was not sharing but the idea will be like if you and this will be like my default proposal for sharing it's like if you give me uh or and and be there as well you know like a like a one euro where you can say if you start reading here you will see my notes and optionally and of course if that euro is a github repository and it has markdown the easiest and that will just work out the logs but even if it's a website and you say this is under this website there are my notes and the pages are following this url convention that's also good enough the idea is that the aura wants to adapt to where people the aura wants to meet the user where they are essentially uh in a very basic but hopefully uh useful one so yeah i mean essentially like tldr is like plus one to markdown it when in when in doubt just also because i think it makes it so that people can go from two to two pretty easily but html uh or no or or or mode or actually if you tell me the format you want i mean actually one of the things i want to do next is like use pandoc like a universal engine and then it's like we pretty much don't care anymore like if pandoc can take the document the aura will render it and let a community collaborate this is all individual so i wanted to make a distinction and before i will shut up in 30 seconds right so that's on the digital garden side which is what it does it's like you know a bunch of digital gardens and then like smoothing together or something and still speaking it doesn't care about is it a digital garden it's a wiki is it like it's just a digital repository and more than normal but we do make the distinction sort of semantic between repositories which are like maintained by one person which is like what usually digital gardens are and repositories which are like more wiki like where like you have multi-user anything which is i think what you were also like discussing jerry when it comes to like contention and like complicated solution yep so my my hunch is that and this is my hypothesis actually is that starting with individual gardens is the is the mvp right because then we can see how we all think before tackling the idea of how to think together well i mean the mere act of of linking through a shared leaf node from a single user world into somebody else a single user world suddenly turns that little leaf node into a multi-user you know exactly yeah this is this is the hopefully i mean it could be the value probe essentially right it's like but but the the nice thing i don't know what i mean is like essentially you know you can ignore it until you you want to do not ignore it and actually once you start doing that you start spotting all these opportunities for collaboration right so we bootstrap and then we can say okay so for example like uh once you are in the same hour or i'm sure this is even mostly wiki it will be like oh we want to collaborate on a project say a word right like we can say like um uh plex calendar chris has the longest city name and is like memorized so he that could be the word exactly and then and then it's i mean just that that information because we are all if we all assume oh when we don't know where to resolve things together as a group we're gonna go to this point to this hour this must be wiki that the hypothesis that that over time in groups lowers the friction to collaboration and then we we can even like use that to say okay we're gonna collaborate on this wiki or in this document your document where we solve the you know cooperation simultaneous cooperation like uh problems uh exactly uh you know after we have done this groundwork there will be my proposal um Bentley you've messed around with the brain some does this smell correct are we in the right general direction uh i actually got distracted by an incoming mail so don't worry i didn't hear any of that and i don't want to make plants enough to repeat the 10 minutes speech like marlon gate and like a any other format is also fine it will define it yeah i'm sure we could make anything work cool um and chris any thoughts i think one of the toughest parts is how you provide context into these things particularly for people who are new so it's you know a small short note just by itself is one thing but then that combined with the context versus let's say a full wikipedia page that may have here's an idea in 57 sub ideas which provides a lot more context than just my one note about this specific one thing and to me that's the harder sense making piece for larger groups is how do you help the person who's coming in find that pointer you know you may come into the middle of a conversation and having missed the beginning you're totally lost but how do you kind of better contextualize that and that's a second level problem that you have to be careful of in fixing that first level problem um but i think there are enough trails and paths within what the agara does that you can go back you just have to know what the ui is what the affordances are and where those trails go or you know it's like watching jerry's brain having seen you use it i know how you have your general layout so i know what to expect by going up into the left or down into the right or what's apparent what's a child and where i'm going and once i know what those paths look like it makes a whole lot more sense to me versus i show up out of nowhere and then here's a page and what the hell's going on yeah i love that so there's a sense of ui things there's a sense of orientation when you land some place and i was thinking plantain as you were talking that it might be interesting and useful as a automated footer for new pages to to auto generate a footer that says oh this page is shared in some bent diagram form in these other these other projects or namespaces or personal notespaces so that you knew each of which has ground rules and then and then there could be access controls on an individual page that could be made sort of visible like hey this is any everybody's free to comment you have to apply to edit here's who to apply to kind of thing or something like that on any page and then the page could wind up sort of skinning down to a lowest common denominator without hopefully losing too much metadata from any of the tools um and then again this begs the question of hey what happens to the cool shit that each of the individual tools can do that isn't what that doesn't inhabit a plain markdown file completely yes what the hour does really the ui's needs to improve by the way when we know where else like a sub node or like a resource which is like you know a part of the new contribution in a node where we know where where else it is hosted or or rendered we surface that so it's an icon it could be made way more we need an innovation but actually it doesn't have one and and you could totally imagine like actually upranking that which is the idea I think like making it more like actually should be more not all probably um yeah and now the access controls and so on yes it doesn't do any of that but it should uh of like you know if you want to collaborate you have to write this this is the process where you could actually you know get there right cool I mean I do like that the agra has there's a frame that gives me kind of a bubble graph of my idea that I'm looking at on this page and what it links to kind of going out within one or two links and that helps center where you're at although I find I don't I don't think it does it the same way every time so the bubbles may move around which is one of the issues I have with how obsidian's graph renders is I can see a view but it's not the same place so you know the world shifts around me every time I look at that graph which is my problem with the rubber band it's my always my problem with the rubber band view there's no sense of of orientation that's actually very well it's fun but so shiny it's not useful yeah I put that together like very quickly but I completely agree uh sometimes I drag the nose and I want to say just keeping them like this you know and I was thinking of having a mode in which like by default it does that only once and then it saves and if a user actually arranges the graph at hand the next user sees the same arrangement that just will make sense right but that's that's maybe a three-view as well until like just around yeah yeah be careful doing that though because user one may have the way you know I want it to look like Jerry's brain's layout and then Bentley comes along and says no I hate that let's shift it all around and then then I come back and visit it again next weekend and suddenly it's how do you how do you preserve each person's preferences on view while allowing other people to mess with the data and preserving the ways that they improve the data that's that's like the sweet spot question in the middle here I mean I always find that that graph is less useful for me as a tool for finding things and more useful as a tool for understanding the things that need to be linked that aren't so I don't mind that it resorts every time it's weird but yeah I understand that and with the brain it kind of resorts every time but there's always a known orientation and things are always above or below or to the left of other things so by what I mean by dynamic resorting is that before I ever saw the brain I was looking for some kind of mind mapping sort of tool and I thought I wanted the placement of nodes like in the game of go what matters what which intersection of lines you're on and I learned when I when I hit the brain I'm like oh shit you can't do that for n dimensions when you have n things underneath you can't have any new node relative to all the other nodes that would be like exhausting and therefore the brain's convention of hey you make a decision up down left right and then everything that's down gets sorted either alphabetically or chronologically make your choice and and I'm good with that because the eye is really good at parsing through columns that are alphabetic for example that that just really works clean because I because I know where to go for something that that I I think seem to remember where it started that plus some really quick text search and you're like really rocking and rolling yeah so I you showed the Vulcan thing a few minutes ago and now that's you know I've landed on a crazy planet I don't know where things got remapped to so I don't know where so the first thing I try to do is figure out okay here are the couple of things that he showed and the first view here's where they are in the second view okay now I've kind of reoriented myself and it's understandable again but at least knowing I'm in the west side of the country right then I can look around and find things that I expect to be on the west side and that's orienting but that may be tougher for a multi-user space and I had sort of I kind of have design issues for an OGM platform I'll share that link somewhere ahead orientation but that was very much about the zoom levels and a couple of the things we've talked about in these calls this this window is using seven gigs of RAM it's because we're thinking big thoughts around and your AI is busy trying to like trace the trace their origins and everything else is yeah I think just something wrong with something on my device not the client itself it could be that yeah yeah yeah so I love this discussion but I want to steal it I'm gonna be honest I want to steal it slightly in the direction of knowing which URLs have your nodes if you if you have them published somewhere sure I'm in and so that's kind of like a hmm what do you mean by that because I'm using massive wiki posting markdown files to github repost and I can give you URLs to all of those that's really super easy the brain I whenever I send somebody a link like I just did the brain shortcut link that link is unfortunately not auto-generated when the brain is updated or posted that brain is generated that brain link is generated on the fly and then shortened with the brain's own link shortener which is probably a bad idea for longevity of links but it gives me a short link to send you right and so you can see what is going to be about the link yeah so this link doesn't give you a preview doesn't give you anything it just it just says hey if you click here I'm going to regenerate the brain display and take you to the node that Jerry just shared with you and good luck with that so that's ugly even though in the brain's archive format there's just a big bag of JSON objects some of which are nodes files right so so in the brain's archive someplace these things exist and and Bentley the reason I turned to you earlier is that the way that you and Mark on Twan were sort of working on the brain scrapers and Pete were working on the brain scrapers was as a read through cache if I got this right which was basically what Chris was saying earlier like let's start here and then as we traverse nearby those things get read into our new little external copy of what's in the brain which sounds clumsy and duplicative but quick and dirty yeah it's a way of making sure we're up to date but not thrashing their API so it's really more of a courtesy and also if their system ever ever goes down we have a chance of having some of the data it's not a full update your brain short links do convert to a longer URL yeah both the URL itself is not very helpful it's just two fluids really but at least they're permanent which if you know the brain then you could just store the relevant goods you don't even need the URL itself which is how we use in-brain at brainface I think we use a similar format it's so okay so I have the real eight repo which is already in the hour in the reference one but also in the FOTL hour which is like just the one I'm trying to set up for for the video ship and I think Jero you said like you have one you have at least one obsidian one and also the brain dump you know so if you want we can try to integrate it all so I think it'd be easy for us to integrate with the obsidian vaults or get have repos I guess preferably although connecting at the obsidian level is interesting now I'm paying obsidian like 10 bucks a month for obsidian sync oh yeah I haven't never integrated that I will be happy to try it but the git repo is way easier yeah yeah and obsidian sync is working nicely so that I can pick up my iPad and then work on the same document and pick up my phone and work on the same document that I was working on the desktop so that's kind of nice but that's the only feature that buys me um and then I get confused about vaults versus repos versus whatever's that you know I think we've previously discussed right there is some plugin for obsidian that syncs with git very effectively yeah I looked it up but like I have so many weird features on my git command line and because of security that I was just like much easier for me to just open up a command line but um that's probably not most people so that might help um yeah and in order to configure obsidian to work for massive wiki the first thing you do is get your git account and install the git plugin that syncs and make that work yeah uh yeah so we can definitely it's already there in that one yes I mean you overhouse it up and what about all you are a bendy gris what was that you broke up sorry are you interested in the experiment of like motion and all yeah I just have to give you a location you can do it that doesn't have all the crap you don't want well I mean I am or all the crap I don't want you to have there we go that's clear it's been intermingling with private and public data for so long I'm actually I'm still slowly teasing the two apart um yeah obsidian makes it reasonably easy that I can have a a super set and a subset um so I'm trying to move things into a subset that I can sync and not have all of it um yeah so as an example with that I've been playing around with this conceptually as well um which is like there's a problem of public and private and so my little demo which I put on the link here is um I've run a I'm running a setting up to run a dungeons and dragons campaign um for some friends right and so I keep my notes in markdown and obsidian and I want to keep the notes there but also like I want to generate a site with like updates to their profile pages and you know the basic rules like the system resource document and all that so um one of the things I played with is this is a pre-commit hook and the pre-commit hook goes into the appropriate folders that I want to store things that I want to be public facing to my players from my private obsidian vault copies it over into the github repo and um allows it so that it always stays up to date with my notes and the site um the other thing to do is like invert it is the next step which is have my private repo automatically pull the things that are public push them into the other repo and publish it and the last piece that I want to apply here that I think would be useful is right now it's folder based and I know this is sort of untraditional amongst uh obsidian users but I am heavily invested in folders it works for me um but uh what I want to do is just have it be in the yaml right so that I could just have it run um a yaml check if it says public colon true that's what gets pulled into the thing so that's the I'm on step two right now that's step three we'll see thank you just thinking about like how to deal with that public private diff yeah exactly and and even just that user that individual decision of to folder or not to folder makes such a big difference in the sharing and everything else we're talking about it just has all these ramifications um and I I being a fan of wiki flat namespaces I'm trying to use obsidian by just naming files in some way that lets me sort of see them consistently in the namespace without building a whole lot of folders I had at a previous obsidian uh vault where I did a bunch of folders and I was like that's some something about this just isn't working for me I think I'm using folders because obsidian has a nice folder view um but I'm a big fan of wiki namespaces and wiki collaborations I'm trying to figure out how do we find our way back to that being simple here yeah I mean the flip side of this is like even though I have folders I also alias everything um and handle it that way um so like functionally I use it like it's a flat wiki thin but like in in my organization it's in folders because that's the easiest way for me to handle it you want to try out something really interesting that sort of like takes up the other direction um I was trying this uh markdown based authoring tool called deep down that's DWN um and it is like built for folders explicitly and it has the most fascinating design concept concept which is um when you open a folder in it it gives you four columns the first is um you know your folder structure the second column is all of the files in your current hierarchical level so it'll show you all of the files in your current folder and all the folders below it then the third column is your um your headers and then the fourth column is your authoring interface um and I found it's very useful for writing single files like long form single files which is cool but very like that when I opened it I was like what the hell is this I have no idea what's going on but now that I've realized I'm like oh this is I get it it's intended to make it easy for me to switch between the stuff that I'm working on at the particular hierarchy level I'm working on which is cool speaking of waving I gotta go pick up a kid who's getting out of school early today so nice enjoy the video and I'll catch the tail end cool thank you you're only gonna miss 12 minutes of video so there's also um I haven't tried deep down but the I know if you've seen Dendron for uh VS Code has like this sort of like a readily opinionated uh taxonomy structure related to folders using folders and also not only folders if I'm right correctly but uh encoding like you know hierarchy information in the actual file name separated by periods so you could essentially have something like a Java class or something in the file name and it will actually be expressing some hierarchy that way um it's all on top of VS Code I think it was so yeah sounds like a great way to have very complicated file names yeah in fact I I like to be organized but yeah it wasn't for me when I tried I guess I went for form what do you what do you call the uh marketing cruft that gets put off to the question mark at the end of URLs what do you call is there a name for for that horrible appendage I mean in marketing they're called UTM codes even though you can do more than UTM codes there I'd say they're generally called campaign codes or um URL decoration you're all that's a really nice name yeah it depends on it depends on how how much of a privacy advocate the person is if they're a marketing person they're gonna call it UTM codes because they only think about it as UTM codes because that's how they started with it if you're a privacy person you call it link decoration because then you are saying look at all of this very nice dressing on this link it's useless for anything other than invading people's privacy get rid of it right um and then um if you're talking to somebody like me who has professional requirements around these things then you probably call it something like campaign codes oh I think you want to say something like shit yeah yeah well no no I have to like there are parts of that that we use for real that we want to retain right right I'm I'm sometimes impressed at how long and stupid those codes are because I trim them out before I add anything to my to my brain I need to trim everything after the question mark um and sometimes it's they just go on forever and they're full of crap and stuff that you're like whoa I didn't want that to be there yeah I guess sorry go ahead some of sometimes after the question mark can if you're doing deep links sometimes that's also a deep link info um every now and well I once I once we're removed that stuff I then test the link again to see if it's kind of working if it if that if then I'm broken then I've got to figure out a different solution but that doesn't happen that often yeah completely yeah the thing is like you don't know which of the query parameters are like needed which aren't right it's uh maybe uh it was a fake equivalent of a standard or something but no right it might be neat to make a little tool that pops them all up and you can just take out the ones you want and try and you see what it does I found I found a chrome a chrome extension that cleans URLs and installed it a while ago but it didn't seem to be doing the right job so I got rid of it but but it was like a clean URL thing we could put that in the you are in the mosaic tiles yeah in the project see which to wish for wish for exactly um yeah I have I have that built into my archive and where it'll find the canonical link nice which is really important for example in the brain because the brain will detect identical URLs and warn me hey you've already got this in your brain but not if there's a bunch of cruft at the end because it doesn't it doesn't differentiate yeah the only way to really truly 100% be sure you're resolving it appropriately is to crawl the page unfortunately because there are older cms's that actually use the url query as navigational stuff but yeah that's a whole other problem are there other things off the agenda that we'd like to tackle in a little bit of time we've got left or other open questions that are fotle so I guess on the just closing on the note suspect so Adam I think you you see like Chris that you are like working on the private public split no but the are you so essentially you're using you're still targeting Marla on it yes go yeah yeah I am like I had a file loss problem many years ago so nowadays everything I write that I want to keep goes in dropbox and get um which has caused some interesting dropbox problems but it it does work sufficiently to keep everything backed up yeah plain text is very nice and you Bentley what do you use for notes I only use my physical brain so I I I do not have a reposit notes repository um I wasn't I um Bentley and I do not have a second brain hi Bentley confessing to that in this group it's definitely a problem uh the the close thing I have right now is is my blog has some markdown but actually like half the pages are straight html because I'm doing things markdown doesn't support because I'm demoing front end stuff which also kind of the question markdown technically supports html and many versions do y'all know whether in your uh future world what level of html support you're gonna allow I think this is something very interesting to discuss maybe next time also with Peter I don't know how he's thinking about this for most of the weekend I think so sanitizing html sanitizing html is like hard but I'm also like not a concern of security because it doesn't have anything it doesn't have a user if you're trusting yeah it's all about trust right if you're if you're if it's a closed group then then yeah or not close but you know we're someone's looking at it and so I mean I if we want to play around I could use my blog as a data source um I've actually been wanting to write massive wiki and javascript and take it out of the python just because I can't stand having python um on my computer that's me um yeah because right now I'm using 11t to generate my blog but it's mostly using um uh markdown so uh that is my file of choice so I could use that as a as a as a demo piece but I might just hang around and see how I can help out and then some of our other stuff I guess like since doing we have a website for that we probably need to move that to to massive wiki instead of google at some point um I did a I think I mentioned a couple experiments I did with seed wiki long ago but one of them was to create a blog inside a wiki and I really like that and I haven't seen that really kind of done any place but what we did was um we took one page on the wiki and said this anybody coming here this this page will look like a blog and then what that page was was a list of the other pages on the wiki that were entries in the blog and uh effectively and I don't remember if we did this or not but the other way to do this is to just have a tag that you put on blog entry pages in the wiki namespace and all the blog page does is go find every page that has that tag sort them chronologically put between matter between all the blog posts so end matter on the previous blog about ratings and retweets and previous you know and a header on the next blog post and then stream them together and voila you have a blog except every entry is now a wiki page which could be improved over time could be whatever and here we get into the really interesting discussion that pete and others were having about um could there be a canonical page reference and and I think I'm using the wrong language here but but you know as pages change over time you want to how do you mark special versions of the page so that they become more or less permanent or very visible how do you allow for change or prohibit change given whatever the context uh or purposes for the pages but I I wish that all blogs were sort of wikis um and and that every post was a wiki entry and we're off to the races mm-hmm yes I know like at least in this video garden states a lot of people seem to do I mean uh this seems to explore this wiki blog duality like some entries are like uh knows and some are like journal entries or like anchor to a date and time uh and uh and it's interesting because yeah it's sort of like I guess simplified you you both what the hour does is it just tries to detect very simply like which notes look like dates or times and then that shows in a time view you know what's what's interesting also so the blog uh you mentioned going through all the files and that are tagged a certain way I actually have several places on my blog where I'm tagged and I have metadata so I have like projects and those are just kind of like wiki pages um with metadata and then there's a page that puts that on my home page and then also what's interesting is I have metadata to say what uh what technologies they were built in so then on the home page there's lower icons showing the the for each items and then there's also when you go on the page themselves there's the full name with the icon on the page itself so that kind of repeating metadata um even though that's still kind of date specific there's other stuff like people and stuff like that that is repeating data so yeah I kind of see a a blog is just being a date repeating data I don't know I'm just brainstorming I do have to head out I got another meeting yeah yeah thanks for that and if if you guys don't have anything you want to turn over we can hold this meeting now or I'm happy to