 Hello. It's so lovely to see your faces. Hi. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you to the organizers of WordCamp Europe for having me and for hosting this amazing event. I'm so happy to be here. I'd like to also thank all of my mentors and supporters, all of my friends and family, my current and previous employers for supporting me and my career. I'm Amy Kamala. You may have seen my name kicking around the WordPress space a little bit. I've been involved for about five years. I'm one of the contributors to the open source project and I've also been involved in WordCamps and Meetups over the years. I'm also a hosting rep for the make.wordpress.org organization. I'm from Los Angeles, California, where I was born and raised. I'm a full stack developer and I've had my hands in technology, design, all sorts of parts of the industry and I also have a master degree in fine arts from UCLA. I've worked for three different web hosts, a couple different agencies and I currently work as a developer for LA County, the organization. I've been in leadership positions. I've worked with leadership teams. I've helped establish and implement design standards, build out infrastructure, launch products, implement policies and practices, develop new products. I've worked in project management and business development. Most importantly, I'm a single mom and I'm a domestic violence survivor and I've managed to build a career while also raising two children by myself. The recommendations that I'm bringing to you today are data based so they're not speculation and they're also born of my first hand experience as a woman working in the tech industry. Some of you may wonder why it matters that I'm a single mom and a domestic violence survivor. Why is it relevant? Why is it important to business? Why is motherhood relevant and why is domestic violence relevant? So much that I'm giving personal details to a bunch of strangers. I'd like to answer that with some statistics. All of the stats that I'm providing today are from official sources like the World Bank, the United States Census Bureau and accredited publications. So according to the World Bank, there are over three billion women in the world, which makes up about 50% of the human population. So half of humans are women. According to the World Bank, 53% of women ages 15 to 64 participated in the workforce in 2021, which means that there are more than 1.5 billion women workers in the world. So when we talk about women, we're talking about about half the workforce, 1.5 billion workers, including the employees in your own organization. So that means that 1.5 more than 1.5 billion workers face challenges that inherently come with being a woman. Those challenges include the physical ramifications of childbirth, care taking families, domestic violence, like I mentioned, sexual assault, long term child rearing that women are statistically speaking, primarily responsible for lower pay, less opportunities, fewer promotions, microaggressions and just good old fashioned discrimination. So when you say that you support women in tech, I want to encourage you as members of your org and your community to really examine if you support women by hiring women, which is a really great start. Or if you go the extra mile to support your portion of those 1.5 billion women workers in ways that are really needed specifically for women. Implementing these policies here helps with employee retention and reduces the cost of employee loss and employee acquisition. These policies make workers feel supported and motivates them to invest more in the company, as well as stick around for longer. So back to me. I'd like to tell you a little bit of my own story as a real world example of how simple internal policies can benefit a business in real terms. And by real terms, I mean increased revenue. I started my career in 2015, making $30,000 a year as a tech support agent. I was and I am still the sole caretaker of my children. So that means that my priorities are a little bit different than that of most men. Not only am I responsible for my job and supporting my family, but I'm also responsible for the day to day care of my family. So that makes my job that much more important. And that translates into having a necessity and a drive to do well at work. In my first year as a tech support agent, my then two year old started to cry every time I left for work. Nothing that I tried stopped this. She was crying for hours while I was gone. It was very stressful. So I added, I started asking my bosses for help and my bosses at the time were men mostly. And they wanted to help, but they came up short. By the time this happened, I had already been in the position for a while, and I had gone above and beyond in their words. So they didn't actually want me to have problems. And I was planning to quit because my daughter, obviously, is a priority. And so they didn't want me to quit. So the one female boss that I had decided to give me her support, and she approved a remote contract for me. So that meant that I could still do my job and I didn't have to leave my daughter crying while I did it. Fast forward three years, I was still working at the same company. I was working remotely, and they had also issued me a few more women supportive policies, like training, like remote work, and also scheduling flexibility. So scheduling flexibility means they would give me a longer lunch. They would let me make up the hours later, so I could go pick up my children, drop off my children, take time off to take them to the doctor, and so forth. So these policies really helped me to do a good job in the workplace. At that point, I had been promoted multiple times. And by 2018, I had helped form a new WordPress support team. And I was helping develop a new product for the company. I was in an unofficial leadership position and I was working with the VP of product and the CEO to build out that new product. In the first year, the product generated a decent amount of revenue before it was even released to the public and before it was fully developed. The company has since released that product and they're benefiting financially long term from my hard work. So because of those three supportive policies, which were fairly easy for the company to give me, the ability to work remotely, training, and flexible scheduling, one single woman worker, changed the face of that company, expanded their offerings and earned them extra revenue. That's just one woman worker. Imagine what 1.5 billion women workers could do. Now amazing women workers can't change the face of your company and earn extra revenue if you don't hire women in the first place. If you don't promote them, if you don't train them and you don't retain them. According to the United States Census Bureau, an average of 31% of employees at major tech companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, are women. So that's less than a third. And that's actually better than the rest of the tech industry. According to the World Bank, only 28% of STEM, that's science, technology, engineering, and mathematical positions are held by women worldwide. So that's for the whole earth. It's even worse in the United States, outside of those larger companies, only about 23% of STEM positions are held by women. In Europe, only 19% of IT jobs are held by women. And only 25% of company leadership worldwide, and this is in all industries, are held by women. And that stat is even worse for women of color, women who are racial minorities. Only about 5% of leadership positions are held by women who are racial minorities. So while the first computer programmers were women, there's no doubt that now STEM fields are dominated by white men. So if your company does have policies that support women, I'd like to commend you. And I hope that you reap the benefits of those policies. According to womentech.org, 38% of companies want to invest in the hiring and retention of women workers. So this talk is geared towards them, those companies that actively want to invest in women in tech. So what can companies do to adjust internal policies? It starts with interviews and diversity hiring practices. Train your recruiters to pull women applicants out of the stack for interviews. Data shows that there are fewer women applicants in tech fields, which translates to fewer interviews, and ultimately fewer hireings. So if a woman applicant is in the pile, have a policy to interview her. Secondly, choose to hire those women applicants. If a woman is qualified, have a policy to hire her. If a woman is under qualified, have a policy to hire her and train her. Let her learn on the job. Employees are an investment and you can have a business model of hiring entry level and giving people bumps and promotions internally, which ultimately saves hiring costs. You can also save on onboarding bonuses, employee retention, because giving promotions and training makes people feel more secure and more invested in. So hire qualified women and also hire under qualified women and let them learn on the job. Additionally, training employees up and promoting internally not only saves the company recruitment and onboarding costs, but it does support employee retention. It creates a company culture where people feel valued and invested in and taken care of, which makes them more likely to work hard and stick around for longer. It also gives the company positive PR and marketing talking points and a lot of companies already market that they support women in tech. Those are some real world ways that you can actually do that. It's important to promote women and minorities into leadership roles. It brings alternate perspectives to the table that gives you insights into the market, which is an advantage. And it continues to save the company money on hiring costs such as onboarding bonuses. These policies can be used in marketing strategies and generates positive public discourse. And it also can assist companies in legal proceedings if they ever come under scrutiny. Back to my story. In 2019, I ended up leaving that company out of frustration because I was doing all of this valuable work and I was living under the poverty line for my area. According to the Pew Research Center in the United States, women's pay hasn't increased in two decades. According to White House.gov, women in the United States are paid 84 cents to every dollar that a man earns. So I would be making $82,000 per year while my male counterpart in the exact same role makes 100,000. In the world space, that's even worse with women making 77 cents to every dollar that a man makes. So there's definitely a pay gap. That pay gap is even more in the tech industry. And it's even more when you get into technology specific fields. In my real life case, I was making 48,000 while my white male developer colleagues were making 120 or more, up to 160. So that's why I ended up being kind of frustrated and I left that position. It's a recipe for women and minority workers to resent their employers. It racks up liabilities and additional costs for the company in lack of productivity. In complaints and also workers could get mad and quit and sue. So the policies I just mentioned of hiring, training and promoting women and minorities alongside equal pay can save the company money in the long run. And it also saves in legal scrutiny, productivity and employee retention. Now, once a woman is your employee, there's a whole other slew of issues that she has to face, including childbirth and motherhood, including assault and domestic violence. So I'm hoping to give employers a path forward in investing in their female employers, employees in the way that they really need specifically for women. According to the national partnership for women and families, more than 65 million women in the United States provide unpaid care for their families. And the majority do that while also holding down a job. So out of those caretakers, 25 million women are caretakers of their own children. So mothers, 25 million mothers in the workforce in the United States. And this means that women are doing double time, taking care of their families and working. Employers can invest in their female employees by supporting their caretaker roles outside of the workplace, which ultimately enables them to do a better job within the workplace. And it creates a sense of dedication towards the employer. If an employer takes care of the real life needs of the employee, that employee will grow a sense of loyalty and commitment to the employer, which aids longevity and dedication and ultimately reduces the cost of employment long term. If an employer makes life more difficult by being rigid and not accommodating the needs of their employees, the employee is going to end up presenting their employer, be less dedicated, more stressed and ultimately seek out a different job. Costing the company in lack of productivity, hiring expenses and training to replace them. Ways that an employer can invest in their employees and build that sense of dedication are through leave programs, assistance programs, flexible scheduling and remote contracts or hybrid contracts to make it easier for people to live their lives and handle their responsibilities. If an employer enables parents to step away from the workplace as needed, to take care of their children, pickups, drop offs, go to the doctor and so forth, tending to their family's needs, work alternate schedules, make up time later. That encourages those employees in return to invest in the company and stay for longer, to be more dedicated, more committed, more engaged in projects, and it overall creates a culture of stability and support. Having your needs met also reduces stress and increases health, which makes people more capable, more productive and better workers. So motherhood is a bit of an elephant in the room when it comes to hiring women. And the reason is because of maternity leave, employers see that as a burden on their costs and their staffing. But women biologically are responsible for carrying and birthing children, which is kind of important. I'm sure most people would agree because that assures the continuation of the human species. Investing in family health assures retention and reduces recruitment and hiring costs and the cost of training. And this is especially true for women in technical roles who've already spent months to years ramping up in a developer position and learning this specific tech stack. A developer that knows off the top of their head what block of code does what, where, why, and how can save an organization days to weeks of downtime, countless hours of troubleshooting, tons of stress and help reduce liability. So if you have some of these women on your staff, they're a valuable asset and I'd like to encourage you to support them. According to the US Census Bureau, 18 to 48% of women leave the workforce within the first year of childbirth. I can attest to how incredibly exhausting and challenging it is to raise children and maintain a job, let alone a career. But the good news is that companies can alleviate that and retain their valued employees. And one of the main reasons for this phenomenon is because of lack of maternity leave. Admittedly, the EU is way better about maternity leave and family leave in general than the United States. So this data focuses on the United States. In the US workers are not entitled to paid family leave, like at all across the board. They're entitled to 12 weeks of unpaid leave. And you can imagine 12 weeks of unpaid leave can leave a family in quite a difficult financial position. So because of this lack of paid family leave, women are often forced to choose between being a mother and working. Ultimately, which is more satisfying, busting your butt nine to five to earn money for CEOs or taking care of your own children. Child care costs about as much as women typically earn. So that's not hiring a full time nanny isn't in the realm, realistic realm of possibility for most women. This tends to affect single moms more than anyone. If you have a single mom on your staff, offer her remote or hybrid contract and flexible scheduling. So she can take care of her kids without going crazy multitasking and running herself into the ground. Offer her childcare and medical benefits. If you don't already, she'll start to love her job, love her employer, be grateful and turn around and invest in her work and contributions. Not offering these puts her in a position of stress and difficulty. And ultimately, she'll end up sick and hating life and leaving. Or if she doesn't leave, she won't be able to apply herself as well. Ideally, families would have up to two years of paid family leave. The United States and many countries just aren't there yet. 12 weeks paid leave is the absolute bare minimum. With paid leave not required in the US, the bar isn't just low, it's underground. With unpaid leave being forced back into the office, workers have undue stress placed on them both physically and financially, which causes them to seek out other options. No or poor employee benefits guarantees that an employee will burn out, regardless of their gender and circumstance. In contrast, providing benefits assures employee retention, long-term dedication and hard work, and a healthy, happy employee will bring more value to your work. Okay, so now we're in the more difficult zone talking about assault and domestic violence. Nobody really likes to talk about these things, but it is a reality for women and others. According to the US CDC, one-third of women, and that means one-third of women workers face domestic violence at some point in their life. So that means that one-third of women workers either have or currently or will face domestic violence. That means that about 500 million workers have, do or will face domestic violence. An employer can help alleviate this by offering many of the same benefits that I've already mentioned. Flexible scheduling, paid leave, legal and mental health benefits would also help greatly in these situations. Implement policies that will enable somebody to get out of a situation quickly and minimize damage to the company. Offer accommodation, programs that provide legal assistance, programs that provide mental health assistance, flexibility, support and compassion. Train managers to understand abusive cycles as well as laws around domestic violence and how to offer support to employees that are going through this. As I mentioned earlier, I was a domestic violence victim myself and my employer directly enabled me to get out of the situation. They gave me accommodations, letting me take time off to file police reports and for a restraining order. They helped me land an apartment with employment verification and my boss still gave me good performance reviews because that situation was not my fault and I was still doing a good job. If I had lost my job during that time, I would have been even more disenfranchised and in even more danger and I would not be here today. But because I was supported in the workplace, I was able to get out of the situation and contribute to the company long term. Policies and training can literally save lives. Years later, I was a manager myself and one of my team members was being abused by her spouse. My higher ups told me that her job was at risk. They were going to fire her because he was interrupting meetings and causing a disruption in the workplace. So I had experienced this from my own past. So obviously I felt quite a bit of compassion and I wanted to support her. And my first line of action was to give her accommodations for minimizing disruptions in the workplace since that was the main issue by the employer. So for example, during remote work, I told her, keep your microphone and your camera on mute. A lot of organizations insist on being on camera and being unmuted. In this situation, it's better to be muted. I told her that time off is preapproved and that she could make up for lost hours later. Outside of her work schedule provided that her deliverables made it on time and that she communicated. Most importantly, I told her that she has support and that she can depend on me to have her back. So she's not alone in this terrifying situation. I told her repeatedly that she needs to leave him, which she did need to do. And eventually she did leave him. Her happiness and her productivity increased. Not only that, but the employer retained a good developer who was familiar with their tech stack. So make your company a culture of support, of flexibility, of understanding and of care. Be lenient for human situations. Be kind about mistakes. Discourage competitive attitudes and harsh judgments. Most importantly, make sure that your managers are trained in how to handle these type of situations where domestic violence is a factor. This applies to sexual harassment as well. According to Zipia, sexual harassment costs businesses an upward of $3 billion in lost productivity, legal expenses and other costs. More than half of women have experienced sexual harassment in the workplace. Up to 81% in some industries. I can't claim to have the answer to that in its tracks, but company culture can go a really long way in prevention. To start, a company can assure that there are consequences for offenders. Only 30% of women believe that their employers handle harassment complaints properly, while 50% have actually experienced damage to their own careers when they make a harassment complaint. Companies can implement strict consequences for offenses like firing for serious offenders, softer consequences for moral more mild defenses like reflecting the behavior in performance reviews, withholding raises withholding promotions, training courses for the offender, performance improvement plans, reassignment for the perpetrator and other consequences. One of my old coworkers at a tech job had intimate photos of her passed around by a group of male coworkers. The victim was given a remote contract, so she didn't have to face the men who had harassed her, but that was a bit of a punishment because that meant she couldn't go into the workplace, work in the office, or feel safe or comfortable in her workplace. No consequences meant these guys thought it was okay, and they kept harassing women. I was harassed in that workplace. I told my bosses and nothing happened. Implementing real consequences for abusive behavior is the first step to preventing it from happening. Either one of us could have sued that company and caused a real loss of funds, and I actually found out later that another woman did sue. If you let people get away with crimes in your company, it puts you in legal jeopardy. It creates a culture of abuse and reduces productivity. It's imperative that companies insist on consequences for poor behavior. 98% of companies already have a formal harassment policy, but that does nothing if they don't enforce it. Company culture stops starts from the top and trickles down. Leaders can minimize harassment by insisting on strict standards and strict consequences. Don't make excuses for you guys. Insist on consequences. Speaking of workplace culture, excuse me, and on a bit of a lighter note, another issue is microaggression. I'm sure you all have heard of mansplaining, right? Another story here. When I was in tech support as a live chat agent, there was an outright refusal on the part of the customers to listen to technical advice from women techs. So every single woman in the chat eventually changed their chat name from their actual name to their initials so that the customers didn't know that they were women. Customers listened to the same agents when they thought they just assumed that it was a man, but not when they thought that it was a woman. A woman tech network survey found that microaggressions are incredibly common in the workplace, with 64% of women surveyed having experienced being spoken over during meetings. 19% have felt pigeonholed by stereotypes and 11% have been asked to supply the food in meetings. Again, this starts and ends with company culture. Companies can train managers to directly ask women questions and shut down interruptions, don't allow interruptions, make a dedicated space for women to be able to speak and be heard. Companies can also hire a diverse set of employees to minimize othering and intentionally highlight differences as an advantage. Companies can create an atmosphere of support and condemn competitive language and behaviors. A lot of why this continues is because males are primarily in leadership positions and they just kind of don't notice it. And because it's not a legal liability, HR companies don't really do anything about it. HR departments don't really do anything about it. The thing is it still creates a culture of combativeness, of discouragement, and it prevents women employees from feeling safe, comfortable, and excelling in their roles. All employees are an investment and it's vital that we treat them that way with the safe workplace culture, equal opportunity, equal pay, and an equal voice. I'm fully confident that if your organization implements some or all of these policies, productivity and revenue will increase. I've given you some real life examples of this and it's no secret that having a supportive and caring workplace culture fosters success. Thank you so much for listening today and thank you to WordCamp Europe for hosting. That's amazing. Awesome. Thank you so much. And now we actually have some time for Q&A. So we have two mics set up in both aisles. If you have a question, please walk up to the microphone and yeah, we have about 10 minutes. So I will let you know if we run out of time, but please just line up and then we have one ready. Hello. Hello. First of all, thank you for that talk. That's the type of talks we need at the WordCamp Europe, to be honest. I have so many questions, I don't know which single one to ask. Maybe the most important one. You've given so many advices on how managers can be trained to be aware of all those issues. Do you know of any like materials, like online courses, some like first steps they can take to be aware of those things? Some things you can recommend maybe from your point of view. Tori Amis has a non-profit organization to support women who are abuse victims called RAINN. And that has a lot of resources and information about abusive cycles. And there are quite a few resources online and different organizations, although I don't know a specific training program off the top of my head. Okay. Thanks. Thank you, too. Hi. Hi. Thank you for the talk. We are looking at increasing the diversity of gender in our companies and are running into a problem at the applicant level already. So I'm looking at the problem at possibly job ads level. Have you seen, what have you seen work for job ads? As in if you want to hire females or, you know, any other non-male, I guess, option, should you design for it differently? Literally, like colors, text, copywriting, to get to get that attention of the pool. What have you seen work? I love your thinking. Well, initially having recruiters actively seek out women and minority groups to interview would be a great step in hiring a diverse set of employees. There are fewer women applicants, but generally speaking, if a recruiter contacts you and offers an opportunity, most people are inclined to at least explore it and do a couple interviews. So I would have recruiters actively seek out minority groups. What if you don't use recruiters and do your own recruiting? If you don't use recruiters, you can have specific language. Like a lot of companies market, we support women in tech. If you put that in your hiring descriptions, in your job descriptions, and exemplify that you are actively looking for diversity hires, then that might make people feel more inclined to apply. And it also could make it easier for them to find the roles. Maybe talk after. Thank you too. Best of thank you for sharing your story. I feel like it's people like you who do share that the difficult times you've been through that help us all understand and help other people be aware of it. I think some of the stories that you mentioned as well about the domestic violence, I think that if they didn't communicate that they were having that problem and felt safe doing it, then people couldn't help. So I think more people need to share their story like you so that other people feel confident. So thank you for doing that first of all. Thank you too. And I wanted to ask about general advice on what other employees can do. Because I feel like anyone who's in the room right now are probably inclined to be the type of people to help and step up. That's why they're here. And obviously the advice you've given is really helpful. But there's still an issue out there. Like I think you gave an example of how the lady who was being bullied in the workplace actually sort of gets punished by having to work remotely when instead actually the people passing around the photo should have got reprimanded and something happened to them. But this is something that still happens. You know, you mentioned about employers not liking mortality leave. I've seen that I've directly had conversations with male employers who are like I'm not hiring chicks because they're going to take a day off every month because they're going to have period pain hurts or something like that. And that sort of attitude they get. And and this is still around. And you know, I still think that women, especially in tech, like you said, it's mal-dominated and finance all that sort of stuff are definitely looked down on regardless of whatever the legislations are in place about diversity and everything like this. Absolutely. It's still not being done. So what can we do to address the greater issue that these problems still lie in the workplace and they're still not being addressed properly because all the examples you've given are fantastic, but they are only going to be implemented by people who actually care and give a shit. Sorry. That's right. And that's the thing. And there are still so many employers out there who don't. How do we address that? How do we bring in consequences for that and highlight that this is not OK and something needs to be done? I don't know if you've heard the phrase that people can vote with their money before investing money in a company. Individuals on the floor can check out the leadership team, see if there are any women and minorities on their leadership team. And if not, then choose to invest in a company that does have women and minorities on their leadership teams. And I would think that like if we do that in mass, then that would show companies that buyers and users in the market care about these things. And so they would then adjust their policies. I guess it's not just within the leadership of everything. I guess like, yeah, how do we I guess make it more vocal? I guess that's obviously a great idea that people would support those. But how do we everyone in the room, I guess, do our little bit to make bring a more awareness, I guess, is what I'm trying to ask if there's anything we can do to bring more awareness to these issues. Talking about it, talking about it in your own organization, speaking to your managers, expressing your concerns if you have any. Also, it's important to praise things that companies are doing right. So if your employer is doing something right, you make sure to highlight that for them, because otherwise people get a little bit defensive. But from within an organization, communicating with managers and leadership or even submitting concerns like during surveys and other opportunities that employers tend to give concerns and desires could be expressed on met needs could be expressed. Hopefully they give people a chance to do it anonymously, so you don't become a target. And so from within the company that you work at being vocal about it and outside of the company being vocal about it, people can email any company and it lands on the HR department or another department. Social media is another way. You can add a company that you feel is either doing a great job with diversity and commend them or ask them. I noticed that you don't have any women on your leadership team. Are you guys doing anything to address that in the public arena and get your friends to retweet it and so forth, even on LinkedIn. So that kind of puts them on the spot and makes them address it be forced to address it publicly. Thank you. Thank you too. Hello. Hi. Thank you for your presentation and thank you for your vulnerability and sharing your story. It's obviously not easy to get on stage to begin with, but to get on stage and share what you've shared. Really appreciate it. Thank you. You mentioned a lot about maternity leave and the importance of that and you highlighted that it is different in the US than it is here in the EU. Yes. I wonder your thoughts about parental leave as opposed to just maternity leave giving then supportive fathers because there are luckily some. Yes. The chance to also be a part of that parenting early on. In my opinion, the policies should be the same for both fathers and mothers up to two years of paid leave or companies could give three or four months, four or five months of paid family leave and then up to two years of remote and hybrid contracts so that those parents are available to their families during work hours and companies are kind of scared that that would mean that they're not at their desk and they're not doing their work. But most of the time when an employee is supported and given the opportunity to take care of their needs, they work harder. They're more likely to be focused and invested. One other question that's OK on a different topic. So you mentioned the need for managers to be supportive if there is domestic violence or sexual assault situation happening. How can a manager balance the desire to be supportive with the desire to honor that person's need for privacy in that moment? Right. So if somebody has come to a manager saying that they're struggling with something, anything in the first place, they are essentially asking for support. So of course, managers should keep this confidential. They shouldn't go telling people and so forth. And it should not be reflected in the employer, the employee's documentation, like their performance reviews. Keep it separate. I'm sure there would need to be HR documentation about it, but that has to be absolutely confidential. And so it's important to train managers to honor the privacy of their employees. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, quick. Maybe I hope it's quick because actually, so thank you so much. I actually I'll be honest with you. I just joined at the question moment. I'm so sorry about that. But I guess you're doing a very good job. Thank you. Now my question is a bit. Yeah, it's a bit complicated. I hope to be really, really fast. So starting from the part. So I'm I'm a disabled person. Okay, let's say that I used to think about what we mean for diversity. When I this is not really an answer question, a question answer. I want to start with open light, an idea to think about it. I really think that inclusion is important. Absolutely. My point is, are we don't going to be with too much inclusion? I'm not going to be exclusion. I mean, it makes me a moment. When I I see people says, okay, or companies, I said, okay, let's hire people that are for diversity. But in that case, I honestly think that if you have been hired because you are diverse, sometimes it could be possible that actually as a diverse person, I feel like a little bad about me, right? Because it's like, I have to I have been hired. Not because of my knowledge, of my know how, but for what I am, right? And I think this is a thing that we should discuss as a community, not only workers, I mean, as a work community, because it's I think it's a it's really a point. It's really a point because inclusion is important, but you can't include someone if it's just if you just hire someone just for Oh, is a he's a woman, right? Maybe she's not. She doesn't know anything about the topic. In this case, cause an issue for I think for the person, myself, that I'm being hired for that. And also for the company and the customers, right? What do you think about it? So a lot of that starts with language. You well, companies should not hire just because somebody is a minority. You do want to hire somebody that's a good match, regardless of their personal specifics, but language goes a long way. So instead of using, for example, the term diversity hire, which I know can sometimes be used as an insult, like, Oh, you're just a diversity hire. You don't know what you're talking about, which I think is kind of what you're saying. Maybe not someone that says to you that, but maybe as a person, a diverse person, I can think about that. Like imposter syndrome, like, Oh, I was only hired because of that. You know, it's not imposter. Maybe I'm super expert, but I says, wow, I may be, uh, maybe someone instead of me at this time, there could be someone else that maybe could be a better fit for the company for some reasons. And instead, I was here just because I have this ticket, right? Right. So employers can adjust their language to minimize those feelings by making it clear that we're hiring you because we think you're a good match for the company. We want you to be here. You are a valued and respected member. If you don't know something, that's inevitable. Even the most senior developers need to look up stack overflow and research. Um, so it's, you know, I've seen developers with master degrees in computer science, googling stuff numerous times. So, uh, the feeling of, like, I might not have the most knowledge for this position and somebody else, employers can help reduce that by making asking questions and not knowing all the answers and doing research part of the role. And that should be for any developer, regardless of who they are or what they are, that should be part of the role. Research is one of the ways that developers find the right answers. So employers can use their language instead of saying, like, like I said earlier, we're looking for diversity hires. Changing that to something like we like to have a wide variety of employees to bring more insights to our organization helps people with their feelings of being an other of maybe being not the right person or being hired because of being a minority. So it really falls on the employer to use language that is supportive. All right. Thank you very much. Can we get the last round of applause for Amy Kamala? Thank you so much.