 Time is the fundamental firmament space is happening on top of it Can one escape time the way I am made is not different from the way the universe is made We don't know what the dark energy is. It's meant to be some sort of cosmological constant But it makes the universe accelerate Generally in science you call it a theory. Yeah, I call it my experience If I give you a simple line, can you build mathematics for it? N'jaanati thava jananam kaalo n'jaanati thava samapanam Dhushto athava maha kaarha yogeshwar kaal kaal Because I said something in a language that you don't understand, I think I should explain a bit Thank you I'll make it simple It's a chant talking about how cycles of time Can either crush us or trap us or if we write them it can liberate us Only one who is risen above The duality of one's existence Only one who is in yoga, which means one who is known the union of one's existence with everything else Only he will rise above the time and only one who rises above the time has master your life I think the topic which has been given tonight is the discussion of making space and time for consciousness and so one of the questions is How does one escape time? Can one escape time? And you refer to cycles of time Which Relates to the question of whether time is linear or time is cyclic Which is a topic of great philosophical interest and and in fact that is something which I would like to Talk to you about And it's a question which arises both in the context of cosmology Which is my professional discipline When we look at the universe it's full of site cyclic processes and even the universe itself Could be a cyclic process now at the moment Most cosmologists would say we don't limit a cyclic universe Because the universe is accelerating because of what's called the dark energy. We don't know what the dark energy is It's meant to be some sort of Cosmological constant, but it makes the universe accelerate rather than re-collapse So if you ask most cosmologists, they say well, though the future of the universe is it will expand forever and it will get More and more dispersed eventually we won't even be able to see the other galaxies. They'll be so far away But that's interesting because if you read most of the Religious texts, especially I think from the eastern tradition the Hindu and the Buddhist texts There the indication is that the universe is going to re-collapse and that you will actually have cycles of the universe and I have to confess personally I've always favored a cyclic universe because Everything in the world we know of has cycles It turns out that the the time of the cycle is something like 20 billion years And that's remarkably close. I mean if the universe is going to re-collapse it will re-collapse on that sort of timescale probably and Modern cosmologists have only discovered this in the last 50 years using their telescopes and and so it's remarkable that Modern and maybe other mystics were able to get this information Whatever it was 500 BC to many many years ago. So it's like you have this inner space station So we're spending through science where we're spending billions of dollars to get this information whereas Once getting it from these mystical insights for free It's not free It costs life it costs life Oh, it's not it's not it costs life. It's not free. I see Dollars come from somewhere else life goes waste looking at these things But to me this is an important point about the link between science and spirituality one thinks of them as being opposed from my perspective they're both studying the The physical universe and a take they can both be applied to study the physical universe From an outer perspective and from the inner perspective and I think ultimately There is agreement. Well, if it's the same truth if it's the same universe. They're looking at there has to be an agreement there has to be concordance and I think that's remarkable that so I Know there's been a tradition of inner science in Indian philosophy for many years a thousand of years, but in Western philosophy The focus is all on outer science and I think part of this union between science and spirituality Will be the realization that inner science and outer science must merge And and of course my having this conversation with with So you're on the top sir. Oh By the way, whoever prepared this back cloth it is beautiful I mean, I don't know if it was done specially for this conversation, but it's all these equations. They make me feel at home But But the only thing I would like to say is we're talking about the physical universe because I am professionally a cosmologist So I can talk about cosmology without getting into trouble and and so when we talk about cycles And the time scale of cycles, that's conventional cosmology And so if there are any physicists in the room, you should be happy about that However, I know this conversation I hope this conversation is going to veer into other domains where one is going beyond the physical universe because I think one of the The lessons one gets from Well mystical insights is that there are other levels of reality beyond Material I think I refer to this as the domain of post-materialist science Originally is a guru was talking about cycles of time and I'm talking about So far cycles of time within the physical cosmology, but they're also Cycles of time which go beyond physics and I know we'll get on to that later, but I should Maybe ask you to react Because today modern science The methodology is To come up with the concept make a theory Build a mathematical backbone and then look for elements of proof which could confirm those things. I believe that's a methodology the methodology of mysticism or Mysticism or yogic way of looking at things is To turn inward and look at what we are made of This is coming from the fundamental In science you would say an assumption In my experience I say from the fundamental knowing the way I am made is not different from the way the universe is made I'm just a tiny bit but still You can sit here with these little eyes you can look up and look at galaxy This is because this is made the same way and we are able to reflect that There are some studies people say that they've looked at the vision and Minescapes of some insects or something some experiments have been made where they're saying their vision and their thing doesn't go beyond their survival requirements So this capability we have because we are able to reflect the entire universe within us if you wish In fact, everything that we are seeing is only a reflection Right now these people seem to be here But we are only seeing them the way they are reflecting in the firmament of our minds. That is simply no other way to see it So having said that the fundamental instruments of perception is just this How we keep it Different people can see different things based on how sharp they keep themselves when I say see I'm not only talking about visual apparatus We see through the five senses and more So in this context The way we see this is because of your cosmology inevitably or the other day The boss didn't allow you to speak about time Because he said no it's time But you had spoken about space Which I see personally as a consequence of time Let me just articulate in simple words What is the way we see the universe and see if how many overlaps are there and If there are things that don't overlap we can examine why they don't overlap It's like this in the in the yogic principle the universe was like this This is usually represented as an obverse a snake a cobra running into each other mouth and tail Included and a hood rising here So This is not the European obverse. I know they make it a circle, but this is how it was so we call this Anant that means it's infinite It's infinite infinite infinite. I'm sorry. We're Indian You invented the Colse No, I'm I want to tell you it's not a concept This infinite or infinity was like this the nature of infinity. I don't have to tell you but for everyone If you make infinity plus 10, it's still infinity Infinity minus million still infinity. So your mathematics don't work You do plus minus multiply divide nothing So it was like this you could do nothing with it Then it unfolded and became like this Then we call the shunya Shunya means emptiness It became empty. What is what was infinite became empty? This is very important to understand this What was that which is infinite? Was it not empty? We could not even call it empty or full at that time because it's infinite There's no plus minus to it no multiplication and division to it. So it was this way it Uncoiled itself to become nothing Nothing means We must put a hyphen between no and thing It is a no thing But it has a presence now This presence I'm assuming Maybe this presence is what the modern Scientists are calling as dark energy or dark force or whatever But it's very appropriate because we call this Shunya or Kala The word Kala means empty The word Kala means darkness the word Kala means time the word Kala means space All these four things became somewhat manifest because it became a Kala So this is here as emptiness but We call this infinite space Must mark my words. It's infinite infinite space not time because There is no distinction It is time which is unfolding to become space So once it became Kala like this You can see it as emptiness You can see it as time. You can see it as space You can see it as the manifest first manifestation of that which doesn't have a form Anything that doesn't have a form is also called Kala So what was infinite space became Zero now plus one is plus one Minus one is minus one suddenly there is there is no physicality yet But there is a mathematical foundation for its physicality Now once it became empty like this this the word Shunya Is in terms of written word for the first time it's seen about 400 BC There's a there are documents where clearly the word Shunya and the Thus the mark of a zero is there It traveled to Arabia in early You know the next part of how we count time today Because those divisions are not there in our minds Because we have to communicate with the English-speaking world We we have also come that the cut-off date is somewhere 2000 years ago Otherwise we don't have those cut-offs in our minds. So I'm I'm just saying a what are you calling it now? ad ad It's not ad anymore. What are they calling it? See it's called see now common era or something. Oh see. Yeah so In the common era in the first second century or maybe by third fourth century it traveled to Arabia because Indian traders were maintaining Trade routes from India from right from the bottom of India that is southern most parts of India right up to Damascus Jerusalem Aleppo Even today Aleppo city is supposed to be eight thousand five hundred years old and that city was built by taxing the Indian traders So the live transaction was a daily business people were traveling quite a lot So it traveled to Arabia where they called it Cypher The word Cypher again meant empty This Cypher came to Europe in Latin. They called it Zephyrium That went to Venice Venice where it was the hub of many things happening in Europe and there they called it zero And the English called it Cypher These days nobody's using that word Cypher when we were growing up It was common to use the word Cypher in English language, but I don't know in as a code. It's a secret code Oh, is that what the word Cypher is to do in the zero is connected with yeah coding But this is a different context. Yeah, we used to use the word Cypher as a zero when say it was used in a derogatory way Oh, he's a Cypher Kind of thing so This aspect once it became nothingness, but it was a firmament of Tremendous Existence but without physical form then we go into a more What to say a dialectical way of expressing this Where we say we calling this Kala as a being a large formless not large infinite Formless being infinite cannot have a form of course. So it's a being and he breathes He was inhaling inhaling is a long process may be running into millions of billions of years They are calculations for that. I'm not the mathematician for that And when he excelled When he excelled it's not that he has nostrils. He excels from everywhere If you we did not have no actually even our skin is respite, you know, it's not only perspiring It's also respiring, you know So we're breathing through our every pore in the skin like that when he breathed That created a certain amount of energy that he'd be called as shatthi shatthi came out of him when energy came out of him then This this firmament of nothingness, which is a powerful force It started reverberating initially then caused ripples those ripples led to cyclical moments so with these cyclical moments the first physical forms came out and it all over burst forth as the cycles became more and more complicated from The whatever we call as electrons protons atoms Planetary systems universes all this evolved because the cyclical moments Fundamentally we see physicality as a consequence of cyclical moment. Our very birth is because of the cyclical moments in our mother's body, so the wise we wouldn't be born That is a yogic doomsday would like to know So Studying these cycles feeling these cycles in our own bodies and studying these cycles Things were figured out because we were more interested in how to transform life here and How to make a human being going go beyond these cycles as I said earlier the cycles of time are such They can crush you Why in their childhood they were like this and now they become like this lot of People time has crushed them People think it's their experiences of life this and that no that is only an excuse. It's actually time which has crushed them Or the same time could trap people they're okay, but they're bored and they don't know what to do with themselves Do you mean crush them in the sense that they die? That will anyway happen But when they're alive they feel crushed by time The the cycles of time just crushes them day in and day out Many people wish the Sun doesn't come up tomorrow morning, but it comes up and they have to go to work It Crushes them, you know in in United States. They have thank God. It's Friday Yes, yes It means they don't have to wake up tomorrow morning. Yes. Yes Tgif Take there was a we used to have the Tgif celebration every Friday So We want to break these cycles. So any cycle naturally has a centripetal force and a centrifugal force if you get caught up in the centripetal you get crushed if You ride the centrifugal then you're released a tangent is formed So to attain to this tangent is the goal of life in the east We call this mukti nirvana moksha, whatever Essentially, we want to ride the physical cycles in such a way. We are liberated from the physical cycles How did people see these things? How did people come up with these things? This is always a question Well, how did the modern scientists see something today? Everybody's talking about Hubble and whatever the other one John. What John space James web cell James web space whatever The what are these instruments? These instruments are just extensions of our own senses only because we have eyes Only because we have eyes the telescope means something Otherwise it's a what is a telescope for a man who has no eyes Simply nothing. All right. It's just a pipe With a few mirrors and maybe lances or whatever it is. It's just a pipe. It's a metal pipe We can use it for something, but you can't use it because inside they have blocked it with so many things quite it Quite expensive expensive pipe So I'm saying only because we have eyes we are making instruments which will extend our eyes see So this extension was done in so many different ways one of the things that we did was That we created energetic forms, which would make us look very very far today, unfortunately, it is all being misunderstood and misrepresented But there were instruments with which we could look very far. We could open windows into the cosmos These we called as our deities These are not gods. There's no concept of God in the east. Are you talking about modern telescopes or? Ancient both metaphor. There were no there were no ancient telescopes. I meant metaphorical Yes, they they saw things by creating energetic forms You have definitely heard of Because he was in your neighborhood Ramanujam. Yes, so when people asked him some 3900 mathematical formulations he came out with which is still being debated and discussed and people are trying to understand what he wrote When people asked him he was dying of tuberculosis He sat on his deathbed and simply poured out mathematics when people asked him How does this come? He said my Devi, which means my goddess bleeds mathematics Ramanujan was at my college tronency. Yes for my time. So I never met him and and to me that is a fascinating Example of how one can get information about the universe Not just through the intellect, but through inspiration as you say he thought he had is if I want if I should correct that sir I'm sorry. I'm into being You never get information through your intellect You get information through your senses and there in the in the intellect you mess it up Well, I mean to say you match it with the old information and try to make sense out of it I would I wouldn't like to commit that we always mess it up, but I think no No, I'm saying we're trying to make sense out of it Yeah, but normally what we think is sensible right now Is actually blocking us because what we think is smart we can't leave what we think is stupid we can leave easily So you've made so many interesting points. So guru that Well, I'm not sure I can remember them all but can I react to some of them? I will remind you. Yeah First of all, I I'm glad you you mentioned Ramanujan and mathematics because one of the fascinating things about physics is that ultimately the language of physics is mathematics, you can see a few equations behind and And that is showing that Our understanding because mathematics is a creation of the mind and there's a curious circularity because Mathematics underlies physics physics underlies our understanding of the universe the universe produces Life and brains and then the brains and produce the minds which produce the mathematics So you've got this curious cycle the fact that the universe is comprehensible I mean you you are sort of decrying in a certain sense intellect, but Intellect is is part of the process involved in in mathematics an incomplete process But it's because it's it's just the left-hand side of the brain trying to sort of understand things And to me that's always fascinating why mathematics is actually Able to describe the universe. It's a miracle. We talked about miracles quite a lot But it seems such a miracle that human beings With their limited brains Able to understand so much of the universe. I mean we've only been around Well ten thousand years or whatever it is and yet we already claim We can almost understand the universe physicists claim they can almost understand the universe completely now I suspect that claim will turn out to be wrong But but at least it is a miracle that we can understand so much So that's why I sort of reacted to the argument that intellect messes things up I I agree it's often wrong and in fact, I suspect most things turn out to be wrong in the end in physics But but one shouldn't worry too much about what's right and wrong. I think what's interesting is is the path. I Think most theories of physics end up being wrong But that doesn't mean it isn't useful because it's the path which is important rather than the the final paradigm Which is always going to change But I've always I remember there's a statement that Mathematics is the language of God. I don't know if this is a statement in the In the Indian philosophy, but mathematics is the language of God It is sometimes said on the other hand I know that Rumi said that the language of God is silence and that maybe is more consistent But what you're saying, but so that's the first point I wanted to make the The importance of mathematics although ultimately it can't it can't reveal everything I still think it's important and that's why I loved your reference to Ramanujan Who was a spokesman for mathematics which came? I think from his Davis from his angels rather than just through his intellect now the you You I was I loved the moment when you took your infinity and It turned into zero Because as people will know I spoke about the cosmic Eurobidus in in my in my talk on Thursday And I love the cosmic Eurobidus because it encapsulates all the triumph of physics and coming to understand the physical universe But of course the most interesting aspect of the Eurobidus is Where the head meets the tail? And I said well the head is Corresponds to this the universe and we know how big the universe is 10 to the 27 centimeters and the tail corresponds to the The Planck scale 10 to the minus 33 centimeters Well, those are only the type the biggest and smallest scales as we understand it really What those scales represent? It's it's infinity and zero Okay, the the largest scale is infinity and the smallest scale is zero and of course we we We reduce them to finite amount so we can understand them But to me the real really interesting point about the Eurobidus the top of the Eurobidus is that is where? infinity meets zero Now the symbol of the Eurobidus is like a zero you remember but the symbol which which Saikoura used is of course the symbol of infinity and I came across your Representation of that on the website somewhere. It's a beautiful image In fact, I think I even show you briefly at the beginning of my talk But I'm not sure if it was intended but to me that was a fascinating thought because it shows that in some sense infinity is zero and That's how the universe begun because from a physicist point of view the universe begun in a vacuum We don't know exactly what happened at the beginning of the universe But in some sense there was just pure energy. There was no matter no form no structure So it just started in out of a vacuum and the vacuum I suppose corresponds to zero But it also corresponds to infinity Because from my perspective at least at the top of the Eurobidus That may be the end of physics as we understand it, but actually from my perspective that is where? mind and spirit come in and So that from my perspective If we want to have an extension of physics It's there at the top of the Eurobidus that we're going to somehow find mind and spirit and and may be from a cosmological perspective that is where the universe has come from Because if you believe that mind in some sense was prior to matter You must find it there at the top of the Eurobidus precisely where your zero and your infinity meet Now and then you refer to all the different cycles of time The other thing about the Eurobidus is that there are all those different levels of structure You remember I talked about them this biological time with human beings as planetary time The stellar time galactic time so the physical world is full of all these cycles and So when the material world was created in the Big Bang it led Through a process of evolution to all these different levels of structure, which had all the different cycles All the different time skilluses which of course range over a huge range I mean that cosmic Eurobidus was expressed in terms of Space in terms of time spaces the scales of things It could equally well have been expressed in terms of the time scales of things Because every length scale goes with the time scale you mentioned space and time are intimately connected And so you could also put time scales around that diagram Every every level of structure has a time scale associated with it. And so that is a manifestation of The physical world that there are these all these cycles and we as human beings, of course We experience a limited range of these cycles and I was impressed Almost depressed when you said how it's the cycles which Can overwhelm us the experience of these cycles can be almost oppressing because you feel that it's just an everyday life constantly I always I hate shopping and and I find Having to go shopping every day, especially when my wife is away and having to every day shop and then cook every day And then wash every day. It's a bit overwhelming. So I think I understood And but that's part of it. It is part of cycles And What but one thing I must I must tell you in yoga these cycles are referred to a samsara Yes, yeah, but in common society in the language the word samsara means family Well, I can Actually, I don't have any children, but I can imagine that that's I can imagine that's samsara. Yeah, suppose you went to your lab and you found a new universe It doesn't matter. You still have to come home. Yes And yet of course and of course from Buddhism I understand the concept of samsara and and the constant cycle of birth and rebirth and how one needs to escape from that and So my understanding is that although there are all these cycles in the physical world that There is an escape from all those cycles, which I understand although don't experience is in some sense the aim of I Suppose of the mystical path to escape from the cycle. I have to say personally I've never had a I'm not a very spiritually evolved person and I know I'm not going to become enlightened Why why do you say that? Well, I think because I mean most you're trying to destroy my work Because my work is to make sure that everybody it doesn't matter who you are what you are the possibilities always then Will you invest in the possibility or not? That's left to individuals But if you say it's not possible, then you're trying to destroy my work well Well, if by becoming enlightened I can justify your work. I will strive to become But all I all I all I mean is that I don't personally feel I've been very successful I mean I meditate and things like that, but but and I know but I have many spiritual friends many And I like to think that their spirituality rubs off on me No, sir, this is a Wrong sense of the term Spirituality spreading around in the world. Okay to be spiritual you need not be going to a temple church or mosque You need not be praying you need not be meditating nothing. It is just that If you're sincere enough, I'm using the word sincere because if you're sincere enough You know, you don't know damn thing That means you're always your intelligence is always seeking if you keep yourself that way your spiritual Okay, so I'm not given up on you Well, I feel I will be more spiritual after this conversation Yeah And so one thing I would like to talk about because actually I would like to get some information from you if I can Because although I'm a theorist and I'm speculating about The nature of time and consciousness. I have this feeling you probably know all the answers or at least some of the answers so I would like to ask how some of my ideas relate to to your insights and It's to do with the nature of time and indeed the nature of space in my talk on on Thursday, I was trying to explain that if you want to expand physics to accommodate Consciousness by which I mean mind and spirit Because consciousness is everywhere in in matter mind and spirit That you have to expand Your concept of space and your concept of time now I Already spoke on Thursday about in what sense I felt you had to expand your concept of space But just to recap just in case there were some people not there my argument was that most mental and Many spiritual experiences do require a space And I was referring to dream space out of body space The space of a near-death experience the space of ghosts The space even of some mystical experiences not all mystical experiences because some go beyond space and time but and and what I argued was that you need some High-dimensional space because it's not just physical space. It goes beyond physical space and And then what I said was this high-dimensional space it it corresponds to a sort of high-dimensional reality Which reconciles all our experiences of the world not just of the physical world, but of of all the worlds And so that was my claim and then the point I made was that even physics itself Claims that there are high dimensions Because Newton had a three-dimensional space Einstein said there was four-dimensional space space and time being merged which of course agrees with what you were saying earlier that space and time are basically the same and then I explained how They introduced the fifth dimension to explain electromagnetism and then how they introduced six more dimensions in order to in super string theory in order to Describe all the physical interaction. So then you had a ten-dimensional world and then finally I said with m-theory We had the idea there was another dimension. So you have an eleven-dimensional space and Sadguru made the fascinating remark which was new to me that actually eleven dimensions is precisely what arises in some of the Traditions, maybe we can come back to that, but then the real the key point I wanted to make was that in One particular version of m-theory the physical world is a slice in Up a hard-dimensional space the slice is called the brain Brane and the hard-dimensional space is it's a five-dimensional space. It's called the bulk and So physics gives you a hard-dimensional space of which material world is a slice Your experience your mental and spiritual experience gives you a hard-dimensional space So the main point I made on Thursday is why can't we identify these two spaces? This is not a view that many of my physics colleagues will share Because they don't want to be associated with mysticism But that's my personal view I don't want you to give the impression that I am this is the mainstream physics view Because I'll get into trouble with my physics colleagues if you get that impression, but it's it's my view anyway But that was talking about space But what I didn't talk about Because our kind chairman realized that I didn't talk about time so Can I can I speak for about five minutes about time and then I'm going to ask Saguro if that's a lot of time You see what is fascinating about Consciousness is that it involves the passage of time when you say I am conscious One can argue about what you mean by conscious There's a distinction between the contents of consciousness Which is what I'm normally referring to when I talk about a space the consciousness But but the experience of consciousness itself this must change you should not say space like this. Ah I should go like this. Thank you. Yeah Okay, so conscious space like that Yeah, and and hopefully time like this Which means the chairman can't stop me if I Anyway the point is this What you've got to realize in Einstein with his serious special relativity He married up space and time he realized that the world is four-dimensional with the fourth dimension being time and So you as a human being you your body is like a world line in this you imagine space and time in two dimensions I hope I can use my hands, but you imagine space in time in two dimensions to make it simpler You are like a line your world line in this in this Four-dimensional space, but it's represented as two-dimensional space But in Einstein's picture. It's called the block universe Past presence and future coexist There is no Time but in your conscious experience You think of yourself as moving through time So if you imagine your world line is a brain You you sort of think of your consciousness as like a little bead which is traveling along that wire That's your experience. So right now. It's ten to five But it'll be five o'clock in ten minutes and it was Caught at the fire five minutes ago But the point is that that does not happen in relativity theory in relativity theory There is no passage of time And this is one understood and this is why many physicists and philosophers say It is an illusion the passage of time is an illusion And yet we all experience it Now what I'm saying is that mine the experience of consciousness is not actually part of our current picture of physics is not part of relativity and The passage it's nor is passage of time really in quantum theory Time has a different status in quantum theory So how do you explain this? Well the way various Physicists well various philosophers have explained it including myself is you have to say there is an extra dimension Which is an extra dimension of time which corresponds if you like to mental time as opposed to physical time And so this is why I say current physics meaning relativity theory and quantum theory Cannot explain the experience of consciousness But the final theory of physics which is going to reconcile relativity and quantum theory that has to explain Consciousness and it has to include this extra dimension because what I'm saying is mental time is an extra dimension Is that okay? Everyone's convinced good Now, but there's another feature of consciousness, which is really crucial And this is to do with what I call the specious present. This is the minimum timescale of experience You see When we're normal human beings we only exist there's a minimum time we can experience which is something like a tenth of a second You Imagine my finger is a light if I move this light around in a circle you will see that light going round, okay? But if it goes round too fast if it goes around more than ten times a second you won't see it as motion You'll see a continuous light Okay, so there is no time on a timescale less than a tenth of a second Which is basically the specious present on the other hand If this little light moves around too slowly You won't see it moving either That's to do with the timescale of memory so our experience of time only Extends over a really short range of times from something like a tenth of a second to maybe a thousand seconds Okay, that's what we mean by human consciousness so This concept of the specious present is a very old concept it actually goes back to William James it goes back more than a hundred years But even many philosophers don't talk about it So consciousness comes with a specious present and our specious present is essentially roughly as say a tenth of a second Now we as humans are Very arrogant we assume that that is the only level of consciousness in the universe Well, at least not humans Okay, absolutely well, I suppose exactly when I say When I say humans arrogantly, I don't mean all humans I mean a certain especially most of my scientific colleagues will assume that we are the most important form of consciousness obviously not probably not most of you but But the question is therefore This specious present It's I said it's a tenth of a second, but actually it can change and we all know it can change in certain circumstances I Expect you had the experience you're in a in a crisis situation Say you're falling off a mountain. I don't know if anyone's ever fallen off a mountain But you know time seems to slow down or maybe you're in a car accident and the outside world Everything seems to be in slow motion. That's because your specious present has sort of a sort of shrunk And so that happens you can have another experience for example Where your specious present expands? I know of a case of someone who was in a very ill was lying in bed and saw this flashing light at the window and Couldn't work it out what it was, but it turned out this flashing light Was the rising of the setting of the Sun But their specious present had expanded so that it seemed to be a flashing a flashing light It's a real question of the relationship between your in mental time and physical time now of course most most Neuroscientists would probably think that can be explained because there must be some sort of clock in time inside the brain So for example, so one second. Yes, because there's a lot of things if each one of those things if we unpack together Absolutely, because you're saying so many things we will by the time we come back. No, I could but so are you so are you Sorry Yep, yes The important thing is I think Einstein is committing incest Yeah, when he says we will marry time and space. I don't know whether he said it or not you said because What we are seeing a space in my experience is a consequence of time time has given birth to space and Our sense of time is essentially because of cyclical moments. Otherwise we don't know time Right now people are sitting here Well, if this goes for an hour and a half to they're okay It doesn't matter what great truth you talk if it becomes four hours, they will slowly slip out Because not the clock their bladder keeps time Their backside keeps time their lower back keeps time. Hello Suppose they didn't have a body we took away their bodies Then if we sat here for two million years, they have no problem We as physical beings are a consequence of time Which is essentially cyclical moments of physical material? We are a consequence of that if we rise above our physicality. There is no sense of time in us This is what Unfortunately, the Western observers are saying is trans Somebody has risen above his physical state now He sits here you think he's sitting here whatever number of days, but he in his experience He's sitting for a few moments. Hmm. It's a living experience for me in my life Then there are any number of people who gone into deeper processes where if you make them sit in a certain state They don't know any sense of time time just like that So how much impact when I said you can either get crushed by time or you can be trapped by time Or you can be liberated by writing the time How deeply you're identified with your physicality? That's how much power time has over you if you're not so physically identified now you are a scientist you're Lot happening up there now you go into your laboratory or wherever you go You don't know when to eat There are some people their stomach tells them all the time When to eat when to go to the bathroom when they should go again In the office you will see many of them in eight hours of work at going to the bathroom four to five times and going to eat and drink another five times Because completely ruled by the body If suddenly you became more interested in something else you don't know when to eat when to pee when not to do because bodily influence on you the power of the body is gone once the power of the body is gone on you the power of time is gone on you So if you're completely free from that you're beyond time process But how do we come to this? We look at human body as a construct like this There is a physical body which is an accumulation of the food that we have eaten This is the hardware that we built There is a software which you're calling as a mental space. Is it i'm sorry mental space It's a mental body. We call that also as body We're calling everything body all the five aspects. We call it as body because Body means you can observe you can learn Space is a vague thing So there is a mental body. There is memory and information and intelligence right across So the mental body, this is the software Hardware software together can do nothing unless it's plugged into power So the third layer we call this as the pranamaya kosha or the energy body So it's plugged in and these things are functioning most human beings Live their life between physical mental bodies Very rarely there may be a little bit of experiencing the pranic body or the energy body The next dimension of the body is called Vighana maya kosha Vighana literally means is gana means to know Ghan means to know Vighana means it is a combination of two words vishesh ghan That means an extraordinary knowledge Extraordinary knowledge means anything that we don't perceive through our sense perception But we perceived it Then we call this vishesh gyan or vighana today in india The word science has been described as vighana In the right now in school subjects. It's called vighan Because we are saying this is extraordinary knowledge because you What your eyes could not see your telescope saw so we are saying you are having extraordinary knowledge Because beyond the sense perception you extended it somehow It doesn't matter how How you extended it somehow using a physical mechanism or using your own power of Extending your eyes somehow or the other you saw something that your eyes cannot see So we call this vighan. So general science is called vighan in india now So this vighana maya kosha Who are lack of english words some people describe it as the etric body What this means is it's a transitional body between physicality and non-physicality. There's a transition So now From what you are saying because i'm not much of a scientist by any standards So what I perceive is Science is little bit putting its tentacles or it's uh, what do you call this the cockroach stood things Huh antenna antenna you're putting your antenna into vighana maya kosha But not able to enter The fifth layer of the body we call it as bliss body Not because there's a bubble of bliss inside Simply because we do not know what is its nature Because it's not physical at all We cannot define by any word or describe it by any description So we say bliss body because this is child's language It is like Your child sees a Speaker let's say a speaker like this and you say boom boom So in that language we are talking when we touch it our experience becomes so bliss blissful So we are saying this is bliss body. We are not saying that is the nature of that We are saying when we touch it we eat something and he says sweet Because sweet is our experience. That is not the nature of what it is. This is our experience. So we call it bliss body right now Please I am not trying to be uh countering something. I'm just trying to define my understanding of this From what you are saying I see that you are nibbling at vighana maya kosha But to cross it If you don't come out of the The other day I called it a dungeon today. I will remain into foundation The foundations of logic you must cross Because logic can function only with two Listen that without that you cannot now these two things have gone till here It needs to become like this or somebody married Time and space that needs to happen within us you can this marriage of time and space Or merger of time and space can only happen If you transcend your physical nature. Otherwise it will not go there I entirely accept that one reaches a point beyond logic beyond mathematics But nevertheless, I would argue that you can extend the logic in the mathematics beyond the physical domain because I was making a distinction between physical time And another level of time which is not physical but nevertheless subject to logic and subject to mathematics So I think what I'm saying is that there's an intermediate regime between the material domain which most physicists think about And that domain which goes beyond logic and mathematics altogether So I think what I'm talking about What I'm nibbling at if you like is that intermediate domain so I don't think that's in contradiction with what you're saying, but I mean just to I was talking before about how your experience of the Beacious present can change but that was all In the circumstances where the specious present was presumably related to what was going on in the physical body But the point I wanted to make was that You may have a psychic or a mystical experience Where your experience of time is very different indeed. So for example, you might have a A near-death experience in which your whole life Is seen in an instant Okay, rather than just as a so your 100 years is just seen in one moment because in some sense your specious presence in that state of mind has Expanded to be a whole life and My understanding is from the literature not from experience is that in various mystical states It's like you can be expanding changing your specious present like a dial on a radio. So that you experience the world At a different level of consciousness and that different level of consciousness corresponding to a different specious present And so I mean the point I was going to make was that It's very arrogant to assume that the only level of consciousness in the universe is In the human being I don't myself see why there shouldn't be A hierarchy of level of consciousness On timescales much larger and much smaller than the human Being I don't see why for example Why there shouldn't be a planetary level of consciousness with a much longer specious present Maybe a day why there shouldn't be a Sell at the solar level of consciousness Which might be 100 years there might why there couldn't be a galactic level of consciousness and why there couldn't be a A cosmic level of consciousness. So I would say within this perspective This is why I'm putting the emphasis on specious present I don't see why there cannot be a hierarchy of levels of consciousness associated with Different if you like forms of embodiment, but also if I can ask yes, yes Because you are using the term What this mind time related to the mind, right? Yes. Yes. I'm now talking about time related to mind rather than to physics I'm saying the time We experience time only because of our relationship with our body Not with our mind in our mind We can make one hour into 10 hours 10 hours into one hour We can because on a certain given day if you're very joyful The day passes like 10 minutes if you are depressed the day passes like a yawn So this is a mental thing mind how we see mind is There is something called a satsit ananda you have heard that right have you said satsit ananda I don't know the terminology. I think that is called satsit. Satsit means truth or reality Chit means we are referring to chit as mind Ananda means blissfulness So satsit is reality which which is there But we can only look at the reality through the lie of our mind Satsit is Half there half not there it's a half a reality It's part of it is true part of it is not true Chit is a complete lie. You can make anything out of it You can look at this and see a dinosaur there genuinely People do that. So we see her you can see a dinosaur or an elephant standing there right now though It is not there right a dinosaur you can see an elephant standing there though It is not there you can look at this person and think oh, she's evil You can look at that person and think oh, she's beautiful You can look at that person and think something else. This is all Lies made up in our mind We can make up whatever we want. This is the beautiful thing about our mind We can even make an absolute lie into reality A total lie something that never existed. We can make it into a reality of our own This is a phenomena That we have a kaleidoscope we can make whatever with little information We can make so many things out of it, but that's not an instrument to explore kaleidoscope you can enjoy But you cannot make that into an instrument of exploration Body is more reliable body never lies to you Hello But there are different levels of body. I mean Yes, what you were saying. Yes physical body mental body. I mean, yes I'm right now saying the physical body never lies It's telling you the truth. Isn't it you you want us to stop? Mental body physical body I'm asking So I'm saying when you get hungry you get hungry this but mind can tell you no, you're not hungry Mine can tell you we didn't when you don't need food mine can tell you you need to eat But body tells you truth about everything when it's cold it's cold when it's hot it's hot Everything is the way it is But mind can make it whichever way you want What is pleasant for one person is unpleasant for somebody what is unpleasant is pleasant Because mind makes up all these things This is the mind as we see it right now We're just essentially talking about one aspect which is the intellect which is what today in modern societies We have strived to develop Because it produces reserves for us in daily life. It improves our life in so many ways What does improvement in life mean? Essentially means we get to handle our survival process more and more efficiently. That's all improvement is This is why Though compared to how let's say how how our grandparents lived and how we are living today Probably every one of us have 10 to 20 times 20 times more than what they had We are not any more joyful or any more liberated than them No people claim it is not when you look at the people on the street Their faces they're driving their dream cars when you look at their faces, you know, they are no better People who walked or bicycles were also like that in the past I am not saying we are more miserable But we cannot claim because of this comforts. We have become more joyful We become more comfortable more convenient life More possibilities in the physical world all that accepted But this doesn't change the experience because it's the mind which can create whatever you want Some people who manage their mind. Well, they see a good picture on their kaleidoscope Some people who don't know how to manage that they see a bad picture all the time But that's got nothing to do with the reality So when we are using an instrument like this to explore The fundamental reality of our existence, it'll give us a bad picture. Telescope is a good thing kaleidoscope, you know So that that's can I ask you a question because you're talking about You see the dinosaur or the elephant? I didn't I'm just But but would you just would you regard? Our theories of from physics our theories of the world as being like the dinosaur or the elephant? I'm not saying that see the theories of the world I am not saying they're all wrong. I that's why I said they're pointing in the right direction But even if you point in the right direction, let's say right now our vision Like a some other like a fly or a grasshopper or a mosquito is only 10 feet Let's say both of us can see only 10 feet We can think okay if these two rows of people are sitting there, maybe 20 rows are there Maybe there are more people and we start looking but still our eyesight improves. We're not going to see them right, but So it's extremely important now I in my perception Science has never pointed in the right direction in the last 25 30 years. They're beginning to point in the right direction When they're pointing in the right direction developing instruments to see further is very vital now Very emancipation of humanity from being stuck in their own cycles But you see you're when you're talking about Eyes there is that there are the physical eyes But what interests me is that for example If one has an out-of-the-body experience one floats around one says things But one's not one's one's not actually seeing anything through one's physical eyes So it's as though that there's a different level of body Embodiment a different level of eye a different sort of light With which one is exploring the world. So Are you are you making this remark just in the context of physical in every context? I'm saying suppose Suppose it's true that somebody slipped out of their body and floated around I can show you some examples which are stock unbelievably stock Which will be shocking for most people leaving that let's say somebody here slipped out. This is a good candidate See slipped out of her body and went around But to see physical light you need these eyes You can't I can't see physical light with my hands You need these two eyes to see physical light Because this whole problem of light This is this has come because what is metaphorical is being taken Literally by a whole lot of people Yeah, I think it's patanjali who made the mistake maybe be even before him somebody must have Where he said if you bring yourself distance yourself From your psychological and physiological process a new light will arise within you When he says light, he's not talking about this physical light, which is traveling at 186,000 miles per second He's talking about a new clarity has come you see things totally differently because things are crystal clear to you But to see this light you need these two Without these two you don't see this light Right, but but this lady She is not this one that she is using. Oh, sorry. I got the wrong lady Is it true to say she is using a different source of eyes and a different source of light We cannot call it eyes Because when somebody is beyond the body, they're not seeing a damn thing But Thus does not mean there is no experience experience is coming because of inclinations Inherent inclinations Which we call as karmic vasanas That means because you have a certain volume of information in even in your subtlest form You have a certain volume of information information If there is no intent it clear creates an inclination Suppose you sit here you have no intent As to what you should do right now Now you go by your inclinations Some people will pluck the flower like this. Some people will drink something. Some people will smoke something Some people will simply sit here and dream something. This is an inclination If you don't have an intent Naturally your memory creates an inclination We call this inclination as vasana. Vasana means literally means smell Why are we calling it vasana is Because in the animal world, it is the smell which plays a big role Even in human life smell plays a massive role But people are not noticing it simply because of their cerebral activity A whole lot of research has gone into it now Various types of research people are saying Per this scientist saying okay, they are saying you might have chosen A husband or a wife or a partner in your life Because of an unconscious sense of smell you have about that person Smelly people I'm interested in the phenomena of levitation for example and The famous case of saint Teresa of Avila who would levitate Now that in itself would not be a mystical experience because a psychical researcher would say Oh, she's levitating. We must measure how high she goes and how far she moves And and so I accept that is not a mystical phenomena itself, but Saint Teresa herself was having a mystical experience So for her she was an ecstatic state So there it was a link between a way of being ecstatic mystical Why why is being ecstatic mystical? Well, I I have no experience of mystical experience myself. So let me come to them. Yeah See right now Recently some journalist is asking me, Sadhguru, if there's one achievement in your life, what is it? I said tears What do you mean by tears? I said every day millions of people if they close their eyes tears of ecstasy at washing their cheeks This is the only achievement I have rest is all circus Rest is circus only in the world you have to do circus to get people attracted to that process So being ecstatic happens If you stop creating unpleasantness within you When I say unpleasantness you sit here and think, oh, what is she doing? She's writing now. What's she doing? Will she get it right? I don't think she'll get it right This is a genuine opinion How does she understand what I'm talking? Is he okay? Is that this this this? I'm saying these thousand things are there It's not even conscious these things are Multiplying into millions as you grow up Now all this muck Which you think is your thought process and your emotions and your opinions, especially you're in a university Full of opinions Okay If with all these opinions you can't see nothing clearly To just keep down All the opinions that you have it takes a lot of work People are around me for 20 30 years same people I don't have a single opinion about them only when it comes to work. I have to do something with them Then I have an opinion whether they can do this or not do this But when I just look at them, I just look at them as they are now I don't care how they were 10 years ago. I don't care how they were yesterday When I look at them now, I see them as they are because this is very important for what I do Otherwise, oh, this one is possible. This is a enlightenment candidate. This is no good. That is a good one This has good genetics that has bad genes. This is all rubbish It's got nothing to do. All these things have got something to do with their bodies and minds I have no business with their body or their mind for that matter So they may think Loving their guru is a great thing. I think nothing about it Because love is a simple emotion even a dog can do it very well better than you Hello We are making a big deal out of it and exporting it to heaven and saying god is love This is because people have grown up bereft of love I'll tell you a sample. Can I tell you a little situation? I was to speak in Tel Aviv. Unfortunately, there is a situation there A few years ago and I'm flying out of Atlanta I'm to land there around 11 30 in the morning and speak at 6 30 in the evening But some delays in the flights and I end up landing there at six o'clock in the evening In these 40 years, I have not been late to a single event. So I don't want to You know, it's a commitment that I have that I don't go late So I quickly change in the airport And rushing to the event And I'm famished Because I'm flying an american airline. There's nothing edible. There's nothing edible on that plane No, he nods No, not even that they have they throw some dog parts at you Whatever Nothing edible for me So, uh, these uh, whatever these groundnuts they give you only in the domestic and international It's only dog part in some bread and something something. It's just Not for me. So I'm super hungry But you know, I have to be there on time I rush and then I find to my amazement. It never happens to me I'm speaking at a fine restaurant Hmm This is coherence Then I walk in and people are already there. They're greeting me one man comes up and says shalom I ask him, what does it mean? He says, this is the highest way of greeting I said, it's all right. That's your opinion. But what does it mean? He says, no, no, no, this is the highest way of greeting. I said, all right What does the word mean? Then he says it means peace I said, why is peace the highest way of greeting unless you're born in Middle East? In south India, somebody comes up to me in the morning and says peace I said, what's wrong with you? So I'm saying anything that you deprive yourself of slowly rises to heaven You've not seen peace in your life Peace becomes God. You've not seen love in your life. Love becomes God You've not seen blissfulness in your life bliss becomes God. No, these are all simple human emotions So if Saint Teresa If she walked around blissfully, I'm glad for her Today I can show you If not millions at least hundreds and thousands of people who are blissed out at least for parts of the day I'm blissed out all the time So for me to Simply close my eyes and come to tears is just two moments. I'll be there There are many many people like that here and everywhere So it's wonderful if that woman walked like that. It's a fantastic thing because that's how a human being should be You shouldn't make a saint out of her. She is a wonderful human being And every human being should be that way. They must walk the streets like this When they see the flowers in the tree, they must tears must come when they see the clouds tears must come When they see a child tears must come when they close their eyes tears must come tears of love and ecstasy Not tears of misery and pain So right now it becomes such a rarity in a given society Now you suddenly think she's got god going in her No, she doesn't need god human beings are capable of experiencing these things I'm saying these are all experiences that human beings have Almost every human being at some point in a moment of love or joy or something tears have come to them It's just that it's not common If she made it a part of her life fantastic But any eastern societies there are any number of saints like that who always live like that I'm not trying to bring her down. All I am saying is I'm trying to bring it down. You mean from the levitation Levitation I am not talking about it. I'll leave it because that's a question of breathing in hydrogen I'm saying I don't want to bring her down My work is to raise the humanity Not bring down somebody from the heaven So unfortunately in those societies because everybody else is in such a mess If one human being rises you think she fell from the top No, she rolls wonderful for her Well, they did me. Yeah But I'm saying there's nothing mystical about that I mean, that's a question. We can say that is that is clearly a spiritual experience. Let's say oh spiritual is fine I mean that the label because we are trying to make some draw some distinctions between psychic Spiritual and mystical so her experience we can put it clearly in the category of a spiritual experience That is fine because that that's your question of semantics and no, no, these are not semantics. These are clear distinctions In experience see when you look at it from outside intellectually it amounts to semantics in terms of experience What happens in my body is physical what happens in my mind is mental what happens in my emotions is emotional What happens in my spirit is spiritual is distinctly there nobody can question that Because somebody is questioning it from outside because they can't see it If somebody is shedding tears out of love we can sit here and think oh, maybe some pain This is our conclusion But they may be blissed out with love and tears may be coming out possible So semantic issue comes because we are outside observers to human subjectivity that'll never work Whether she was having a spiritual or a mystical experience I I bow to your knowledge because I I No, I'm not saying she did not have a mystical experience because people observed that she's in tears of ecstasy That is a spiritual experience She might have had mystical experiences which she cannot show to people. How will she show? But but the question I was I was going to ask was I was interested In the status of psychic phenomena because why I'm interested in psychical phenomena is because I see them as making a link between matter and spirituality between science and spirituality because In psycho can I can I do this because this is there, you know in between Yes, they have broke it for some reason and they didn't want the tail end to come to Whoever made it Anyway say psychic phenomena is extension of the mind Yes We can extend our body if you want right now. We can do a simple experiments or shall we do That by who means please sit little Spine erect what we will do is put our hands together like this And we will vigorously rub these two hands together with eyes closed for let's say 32 30 seconds. All right like this 30 seconds is a long time Well, my specious presence is changing. Yeah now keeping your eyes closed just separate them by three to four inches Something happening between two your two hands something a little bit Whatever that is feel. Let's not try to define it describe it. It's an extension of the body You can extend the body like this Right now you have heard of phantom legs and things somebody loses a leg or a hand Even though the physical leg is gone still they're still experiencing it because in extended body As there is a physical body. There's an energetic body Which can stay intact if the loss of body is very sudden like that There are tantrics We should not go here. I'm entering dangerous territory in a university Why should I commit suicide like this? Let me leave the tantrics alone Hmm So There are people who can Leave their body here and go and do something and again come back. It's called parakaya probation That means you enter something else. This is extension of the body Which is psychic extension of the body and mind to do something is a psychic process What you're talking about saint theresa That is a spiritual experience what we people are seeing Whether she's having a mystical experience or or not nobody will know She might have she might not have but she is definitely if she's all blitzed out. She's having a spiritual experience I'm just trying to define that But what the the point I'm making is that From the point of view of extending science these phenomena are interesting because that You can study these phenomena using the source of techniques that a scientist would use You know, you can test for telepathy in a laboratory. You can test for psychokinesis whether you can affect it because it's all psychic phenomena telepathy telekinesis Uh, whatever other things that people are talking about. This is all psychic phenomena Which I am personally not interested in because that will not in any way Rise a human being beyond their limitations. It will only make them little more competent It's like if I I'm using a bad example again If I have to kill somebody I must go there and do something to them But if I have a gun from here, I can shoot them. This is psychic phenomenon from here. I can do things I don't have to go there and do things So a gun is more efficient than a knife In uk it's still they use knives. That's why I'm saying There are a few guns, but mainly knives. Yes So I'm saying psychic phenomena is like this. You're extending Your psychological and physical forces to do certain things and come back But this will only at the most give you a little advantage in the world. You will not rise anywhere I accept that but the reason I'm emphasizing that is because in the attempt to expand science to accommodate these phenomena This is and it's nothing to do with helping somebody become enlightened But nevertheless, I'm saying it's helpful. It's of interest to me because that's how I can expand science To accommodate these phenomena It's if you like it's part of the way of going towards it Unifying science and spirituality. So even though you say it's not of interest You don't have to accommodate this. Let's dismiss all the things that I'm saying Right now in my opinion science is looking in the right direction They have to extend their look I'm asking can you build a telescope which will see something which is not physical in nature? That's what you need to do The answer is not with a physical Mathematics I'll come to that so We because we're talking about time which I see as the most basic entity from infinite To zero is manifestation of time So it's an infinite space because it's a mix of time and space It's it's always been like that. It's time is the fundamental firmament Space is happening on top of it now Beyond this time which we refer to as a cyclical process because time as we know it as we experience it right now exists only because of cyclical movement planet turns a day Moon goes around a month planet goes around the sun a year This is our experience of time and similar cycles are happening in our own bodies and various phenomenons in the world But a time which is not cyclical Which is just a stillness we call this maha kala. That means the greater time There is a particular Deity enshrined in central India which used to be the center of time for many millennia Before the British came to India and they shifted it to green which mean time This was the mean time in the world because the maritime Travelers from Asia because that's where it started. This was considered the Line of time. This is where the time started. So there they established a particular deity, which is called maha kala So, well, let me not go into those things But essentially Things were done so that people can experience something beyond their limitations of their body Because if you do not cross the limitations of your body, you will not cross the cycles of time in any way Do what you want As long as this body is there, you are within the manifestation of the cycle of time So right now you're looking the right way if you can only build a telescope somehow Or the telescope need not necessarily be a physical pipe If even these all these numbers Can go there and read something or see something which is non-physical in nature Absolutely non-physical in nature Then science will see what is there. Otherwise we're looking in the direction but No ice And so the question is how can Physics do that? I mean for example people are interested. Yeah, I think we should drop the word physics Because i'm talking about crossing the physical. Well, I mean Even the word when I talk about expanding physics to accommodate these phenomena It is not clear that that is the right word because most physicists will not want to call it physics They they will say it's philosophy or something but Um, and so I'm quite happy. In fact, I I tend to use another word. I tend to use the word hyperphysics This is quite good science systematic way of Yeah, but but you see within Within physics itself. There's the whole question of what is physics among physicists It's a big issue now. What do we regard as physics because Some of the ideas I was talking about Yesterday like m theory and these hard dimensions We still haven't got any instruments that actually detect these extra dimensions. So people will say I mean physicists will say some physicists will say This isn't physics. This is just mathematics or it's even this. It's just philosophy now what is interesting to me is that What we mean by science has constantly evolved So in the old days you used to think that science was to do with experiments But if you're an astronomer you can't do you can't do experiments with stars and galaxies in some sense the universe Does the experiments for you because you've got billions of stars and billions of galaxies So the universe does the experiments But but you're still it's crucial making observations But then that only works because you've got Millions of galaxies and millions of stars So people would say well, you only got one universe. So therefore How can cosmology be proper part of science? But now we accept it is part of it is part of science It is part of physics because we understand the the theory which explains the universe But and so now we're talking on what basis do we come to this conclusion? There's only one universe. Well, exactly now that leads into the next you you've foreseen my next point Which is that now people talk about the multi which is not spiritual or mystical. It's psychic and it's Yeah, well Well, the point is the multiverse in a certain sense is just in the mind because we cannot see the other Universes and I get into a lot of I've written a book about the multiverse universe or multiverse And one gets into arguments with other physicists They say this isn't physics because you can't see the other universe and a crucial thing about science is It has to be something you can see you've got to get evidence But there are lots of things in in science and in physics in particular You can never see but we still accept as physics You can never see inside a black hole, but everyone most physicists accept that's part of physics You can never see a quark, which is the subatomic Particle which makes up neutrons and protons, but everybody agrees that this is part of physics So in physics now we're used to the idea that there are Things which we cannot see and directly get evidence for But it's regarded as physics because it's part of this Mathematical framework because at least part of the theory can be Can be tested Now so one of the counter argument you mentioned the multiverse Even though you can't see these other universes You can argue it's still part of physics because they're predicted by theories of physics Which can be tested indirectly But you what i'm saying is that there's a whole Controversy going on even within physics about what physics is And in some sense our our paradigms of physics now are essentially just mental models because The concept of reality when you talk about higher dimensions and quantum theory I mean quantum theory has got obviously experimental tests But these higher dimensions don't yet have experimental tests And so really it is a creation of mind if you said psychic in a sense it is psychic It's a creation of mind because at the moment we don't have The eyes if you like with which to actually perceive Going back to the st. Teresa Suppose out of her blissfulness. She told all the where was she in which part of Oh, well, she came from europe. I think she forgot what's this issue was of Akila in italy, yeah, if she told the europeans Make this world your home out of her If she has tears of blissfulness, I'm sure she's feeling like that And she said make this world your home Then the europeans thought Then we should make our home so big it should cover the whole world which they tried Now that's a disaster So physics means studying the phenomena of the physical world If it reaches the edge of Physicality we must leave there and come up with the new science, isn't it? Come up with a new new science. Whatever you want to call it. I'll leave that Absolutely. I mean that's just the point I'm making that you you're changing your view of what science is to accommodate these things And indeed you're changing your view of what physics is to accommodate these things And and that is part of the challenge and that is why the more conventional Scientific community is is reacting against that. I mean some of them are reacting against things like higher dimensions Which are relatively respectable in the sense that famous scientists work on them. So even more are they reacting against This idea that you can extend science to accommodate The multiverse and the psychic experience or whatever But I'm just saying that that is part of the part of the process of of linking science and spirituality Is changing what you mean by the nature of science But the nature of science has always changed historically And and if ever science and spirituality does merge in some sense, it will mean that Scientists must become more spiritual No, I wouldn't say that. Okay. What I would say is right now This whole fallacy of science and spirituality What is that we call as science if something is a systematic approach to know something And if you see it also, it's the same way if I see it also It's the same way and ten other people see it. It's still the same way That means it's not just a purely subjective experience Then we say it is science, right? Am I correct? That's the old version of science. All right, we'll go by the old version Yeah, because both of us are in that state So now What we call as spirituality is also a system That if I Elucidate this is the way if you do this this and this this will happen to you If it out of these hundred odd people Even if 50 people can experience it In my opinion, it is science Because I clearly walk out few steps and they take those steps and they come to such an experience I should tell you this Sometime ago a very A man who is super exposed to all kinds of spiritual stuff around the world. He said he's been with jk I don't know if you've heard of jk j krishnamurti. Yes. Yes He was with jk for a long time till he passed away in Oh, oh hi and then he was with rajanish. He was with ma What's her name? And he was with some european teachers and he was with the u g krishnamurti Who's another guy from bangalore? All this and then he came and stayed in our yoga center for two weeks After two weeks. He said can I meet sadh maru? I did not know he was there Then I said okay, then one afternoon. I just met him He said sadh guru like this have been all these places. I said so you're a failed candidate everywhere And you come here now What do I do with you? He said no no no sadh guru. I have to say this I have not come here for anything. He was already like 79 Something when I met him. He said no, I'm not looking for anything. I'm each one of them have contributed I've read you and I've seen you and all that I just wanted to see you. That's it. All I want to say is I've been to all those places experienced so many things each one of them enhanced my life in some way But you are the only one who has a spiritual factory I said what do you mean? I said every week. I'm just seeing people come ordinary people come there When they're leaving after three and a half days They're all bursting with joy and screaming and dancing around and going One batch after another one batch after another they're coming and going the same way. This is a spiritual factory Then I thought this is a great idea because the factory means turning things out more efficiently than handmade stuff I say I called out people and I know they won't go with that. I said we should call this isha spiritual factory Yeah, because The efficiency with which you are functioning. It is a spiritual factory We have a rollout Whoever comes this way when they come out at least reasonably they'll come out that way all right so When we are able to turn out the same thing or bring a whole lot of people to similar or if not same similar experiences Repeatedly again and again and again not in a few years Not in 200 years like science for thousands of years. We are able to do that. Why is that not science? I'm saying This is not infinity. This is supposed to be and No, I'm okay. We should remove and science and science But you see the one of the interesting points was that science is normally assumed to be Taking the third person perspective of the world When you talked about how this no, this this is why I told this example This guy was taking a third person view and he saw this is a spiritual factory People are rolling out in the same level of experience but the point is experience when you're talking about a science of mind you're talking about Experience not experiment. I think this you're saying the same thing. No, no, no, no See, I mean don't translate an experience just to the mind today. Balai is trying to study That experience chemically all right the blood chemistry and whatever other things I don't want to get into that because I don't care. How long is your telemeter? I But all those things matter to today's science. It's fine Now they are saying the endocannabinoids are up by whatever percentage It is much more than what happens in sexual orgasm. Just sitting here Why is this not science? It's measurable I'm agreeing. I'm saying that you should have a sense of experience So I think I'm agreeing with you in that respect. No, experience is not scientific experience is very subjective human But you can measure it Not at the level of experience at the level of what's happening in the body You're able to measure it what's happening in your chemistry. You can measure it because all human experience has a chemical basis to it But that's reducing everything to materialistic Science. No, no, see right now only because both of us have a body here We are able to house a mind on this Hello Correct. Yeah, we're housing a mind on this because we have a mind on this We are housing ideas on it because we have a mind like this. We are housing mathematics on it You can't house all this stuff if you didn't have a body So there's nothing wrong with the body body is the foundation without this. What can we do? I can ask you a very specific question So guru I'm fascinated in the question of whether consciousness because consciousness was the theme of this this this wonderful meeting I'm interested in the question of whether consciousness is actually Generated by the brain or whether consciousness is actually merely Filtered through the brain in other words whether consciousness is a little C Is just a manifestation of consciousness with a big C And I'm and I'm interested to know where you stand on that because you're you're obviously emphasizing the fact that our experience of the world is is Related to what happens in the body But that doesn't prove that the consciousness is generated by the body. It merely says the consciousness is not at all housed in the body So how when do you stand on that? Let me put this like this We were talking about kala We're talking about time and space as kala We're talking about maha kala Which is time but not cyclical in nature Let's say that is consciousness That is a stillness Which is all pervading And which is powerful today. Maybe they're calling it dark energy, whatever it is. I don't know how they see that I don't know if there's any scientific way of Sensing dark energy. I have no idea about that. So let me not comment but Calling it dark. We agree because we call this also dark because we're calling it kala kala means also darkness Because space is dark Light is just a small happening when something burns. It emanates light And you can't see light. You can only see its reflection See right now there is light passing here. You can't see it Only if it's my hand stops it, then you can see it Otherwise you can't see it. So we are not in exploration. We are not concerned about light That's why first thing we do is close our eyes Because light is a huge deception Light is giving you a wrong perspective of everything So the moment you depend on light You become physical you become only physical with the opaque stuff I'm saying you can see the hand you can't even see the air that you breathe Because you can't see anything vital here If you depend on light So first thing is to close our eyes because the sense of sudden deceiving you When we said maya We did not say because today philosophers are going about saying nothing exists It is only there because you are looking at it recently. Some boy young boy asked me a question I think that video is out somewhere today. This boy is asking for such guru is universe There before me or is it just my projection? I said you're a young man Before you came I was here and the universe was there All right Don't imagine such things you came and projected the universe for me. All right I'm saying this is simplistic understanding of whatever profound sciences somebody has Experienced it's all because of those three scientists got the Nobel Prize. Everybody thinks that now they know universe does not exist If universe does not exist, what the hell are you doing here? It is it is just that it doesn't exist the way you see it This is maya maya means illusion illusion means that not necessarily that it does not exist It is not the way you think it is It's not the way you are perceiving it for the sake of your survival It is a completely different phenomena But you see it this way because this is how you can survive. Otherwise you cannot survive having said that So, let us assume this Non-cyclical time Which is the basis of space Is consciousness Well, when we're children all of us would have blown a soap bubble Were you doing or you were looking through the telescope, sir? Uh, it depends on the age, but I mean I was blowing soap bubbles up to Yeah, soap bubbles 15 Suppose yeah, you blew You blew this big bubble I blew that big bubble Now I said see that's my bubble. The big bubble is my bubble. This is your bubble. This is my bubble It went poop Then I don't say this is my air. This is your air It's the same air both of us captured you captured this much. I captured that much So right now the whole yogic system is focused on how much can you capture? If you capture more of that that you're calling as consciousness, which is a memory less intentless intelligence With which if you give it a little memory it finds expression as many many forms So you and me are one type of forms that which found expression because we gathered memory This memory we call as karma as long as your karma is there you can blow a bubble because you got soap Even though there is air You can't blow a bubble You need soap So soap is this karmic information without information. You can't blow the bubble Now if you have if your soap is very thick, you can't blow a big bubble It'll be small but heavy. It doesn't fly. It just goes down and busts on this, you know, you've seen both You blow a lot of soap. It just gets heavy goes and lands there You blow it really nicely Light and slowly it becomes this big now it floats away because Its wall is so thin So if you become like this this whatever this sister versus Teresa Same same Teresa. I'm so sorry. Say Teresa. Same Teresa blew a bubble, which is floating away Others see and think oh, she descended from the heaven. No, she's floating Because she's blown a big bubble of herself Now the bigger the bubble the easier to burst it And that is called nirvana mukti moksha because at some point we want to burst it Why would I want to burst my own life bubble? That is because You read the memory that is written in this and you saw it through and through Because you just have Of even you don't even remember how you were in your mother's womb. Do you? No, you don't remember You only remember a few things here and there and you pick up a few pleasant things and say my life is fantastic If you actually look at it whole of your life is generally grind Like he said you has to go shopping. He has to cook. He has to wash It's a grind. All right here and there moments of joy excitement this and that happened You're just trying to remember that and paint a beautiful picture of your life. It's wonderful Psychologically it's a good thing to do, but it's not a way to explore The reality of one's existence See you wanting to live a good life is one thing You want to know the basis of the life itself is another thing This aspiration may not be there in everybody and it's perfectly fine Somebody just wants to live a good life. All they want is pleasant chemistry We can teach them a simple way how you to make your chemistry pleasant Most people would be satisfied with that Because generally that's all they go to temples mosques church, wherever What is their prayer? What is the prayer on the planet? Dear god, give me this give me that save me protect me make me healthy Give me a little more than my neighbor Yes, what else This is all the prayer on the planet east So otherwise no no no not like that. I go there to thank thank what? For what you got last time so that he doesn't forget you next christmas. This happened. Let me tell you a little joke So it's getting serious two boys brothers went to grandmother's place for christmas So they're required to pray before they go to bed the elder boys sat down kneel down rather And started praying he wanted a puppy For the christmas. So he's praying dear lord. Let me have a puppy and what breed and everything The younger boy who is visa Scream loudly Dear lord. I need a bicycle. Dear lord. I need a bicycle So this older boy says what nonsense why are you screaming god can hear He said I don't care whether god hears or not. I want grandmother here Can I Ask you another question which is Doesn't follow up for you if it is not asking too much. If I give you a very simple Generally in science you call it a theory. Yeah, I call it my experience If I give you a simple line Can you build mathematics for it? Because that could be the telescope Well, my question was going to be this We started off talking about Uh the cycles of the universe And and I there was something which intrigued me I in one of your films are one of the Interviews I've heard you talking about the fact that there were Um a certain number of cycles 84 84 exactly and so I was intrigued about this not 42 Which is the answer to everything in western but 84 which of course is which is twice 84 is twice 42. So but i'm fascinated Where does the figure 84 come from and why 84? Well, you already heard that video. So I will leave that part. No, but they didn't and I'm I like See, uh There is a continuous talk about big bang. Yeah I was talking to one of the scientists who's written a book on Endless universe. Yes, endless universe. That's the title of the book pool pool side house. Yes So I met him in daos and I was he was setting up a computer simulation of how it could have been When I looked at that computer simulation, this is a form every day we work with We call this linger The word linger comes from the word leaner leaner means the form We call it the form the form form for phone phone. What do you think? For For oh form Thank you. It's my english accent Okay Oh Now I understand So we call it there. Yeah Why it's called the phone is Because it was the first phone So when he breathed out and when energy played upon his body and Little particles of creation started forming cycles and creating Making maha kala a great time into a simple time process of atomic time Then he rolled When he rolled It rose like that That form I am seeing on his computer This is a form we always work, you know people worship and work with in so many ways I see this guy had it on his computer. I said, how did you get this? He said he's been working on simulating the big bank Then I asked him a simple question Is it possible there could have been many banks? He Did like that and then he said possible Then I said if there are many banks see if you have an automobile If you take off the manifold You will see the engine will go bang bang bang If you throttle up it'll roll So I said if there was a series of banks, could it have been a row? He said why not possibly I said we've always been saying it's a roar. So we called the first form as the rudra Rudra means the one who roars He rolled Like this then we evolved many forms to describe this this was Mahakala this was kala this was rudra This is the first form and then the many forms how they came there are various aspects to it These things are not today These things have been spoken millennia ago How do they know all this? The simple thing is like this If you look into this piece of creation The whole creation is present in a footprint form By looking at my footprint, suppose I walk through the garden By looking at my footprint, you can measure my weight My height My gate You can even guess how smart am I? Depending on how I navigate through spaces you can see how smart you are in this country Everybody's you know Eligizing this all the time the native americans could read the footprint And they could read the tracks how many people what is happening this that that's a lot of detail into it Because the footprint leaves a whole lot of things So in many ways various aspects of this creation You will never be able to see this through physical Approach or even mental approach because mind we see it as a physical projection Mind is a little subtler projection of the mind of the body So these things cannot be seen but the footprint can be seen With the footprint you can know most of the things only thing you cannot know is What is my nature you cannot know but you can figure out if I walk through Let's say a difficult terrain You can easily figure out how smart I am You can figure out what is my thinking People do this Looking at the animal footprints I do this myself Looking at the footprint. I know where it is going. Is it hungry? Is it not hungry? Is it hunting? Is it just walking around? I I've survived in the jungles because I see these things very clearly So looking at the footprint of creation If you have lot of these numbers, which I don't have no numbers in my head Only number I have is this one Or sometimes it becomes like this I don't have any other numbers Because of that I don't bother about that But if you have all these numbers if I show you the footprint, can you build a mathematical ladder to that? If you build that we can say Scientists are seeing Something that their eyes or their telescopes cannot see Yes But can I ask a follow-up question? Because one of the reasons cosmologists like myself like to invoke psychic universes Is because of the Apparently miraculous fine tunings of the physical constants which are required for life to arise. This is What's called the anthropic principle that there are unexplained Coincidences between the constants of physics which are required for observers to arise in the universe And one of the explanations of this is that you have many cycles of the universe expansion and re-collapse And every time you have a bounce you you change the constants And so the idea is that many of these cycles are just Empty no mind no consciousness But every now and then the the constants have the right values for consciousness to arise And so one reason you invoke Cycles of the universe is that that means occasionally you are going to be In the universe. Well, you have to be in one of the cycles which is suitable for life So this is one example of the multiverse Does that tie in at all with the reason for having 84? See this 84 how we are talking about it is There are yogis who have done a whole lot of mathematics to it. I'm not one of them I'm good by knowing it by my experience. I don't wish to write it on the blackboard I don't have the competence. Let me say that Competence comes only when you care for something Otherwise you don't acquire those competences So these 84 out of these 84 Many have dissolved their Bare vague footprint is there, but they have dissolved but the footprint is there in this 21 of them have a little larger footprint Out of this 21 10 are almost non-physical So non-physical let's say the remaining 11 or somewhat mildly physical But the last four are reasonably physical So We see this number 21 as an important process whatever we want to do we do it in 21 Minutes in 21 ways and all this Because these 21 still have a footprint If you want to rise beyond your physicality absolutely You have to rise beyond all the 21 But you don't have to bother about those things Because if you rise above the physical nature not just in terms of physical body But even the information is physical all information that you carry which makes you you Whether dead or alive it still makes you you That one we want to rise beyond that. So that imprint carries all this And out of the 84 21 are still manifest in different levels of lack of words i'm saying transience From almost non-exist others below 21 they're completely gone But their footprint is still there They don't have any influence or impact their qualities are not imprinted in us But these 21 qualities are there in us. How many more will happen? 112 will happen 112 112 each one of them may take whatever they they've calculated is eugenics How long it'll take that's not my number game is not my game So 112 times it'll happen After that it will manifest in a way that it's non-physical and becomes a perpetual universe A non-physical universe will Manifest itself that it doesn't need physical matter but exists And even individual existence may happen. We don't know it may happen or one massive Happening may happen, but a proper manifestation of universe without physicality When that happens that is the final one this is seen as a thing But I know science will not ever go with that. So let us leave those things. All I am saying is This simple thing that I am talking about if I give you the footprints as to how this is evolved If you can create a mathematical backbone to it I think it'll make sense to lots of people and you will be seeing further not with physical eyes But mathematically you will be seeing much further than where you're seeing right now That's fascinating because that is not one of the standard modern cosmological theories, you see So but what you're saying is that you've got these cycles which at some stage Evolve beyond the straightforward physical the beautiful thing is they're clearly defining this Because the Indian cosmology is built and personified in a certain way Most people Indian origin people will know this There is a coiled up snake Upon which a god is lying down That call that snake is called Shesha Shesha means when we are learning mathematics in Indian languages the reminder. What do you call it? Reminder remainder is called Shesha. What is remaining is Shesha even in our common language We use that Shesha means something leftover So This this snake Is the Shesha upon which once again creation begins So this Shesha leftover the leftovers are there from last 21 universes But the imprint of the leftover is Diminishing as you go backwards and increasing as you come forwards, but the last four are significant And so was consciousness in only some of these No, no, no all of them were conscious fully manifest universes all of them, but they ran out of time That what was kala became maha kala, but it left footprints In some footprints they're very strong. We can see exact nature of what they are Some footprints are very weak that we can barely see that they are there And is this evolution towards after 112 cycles a non-physical state? Does that correspond to a a sort of Evolution of consciousness In a way it is like Consciousness graduating that without physical form it can manifest itself. That's a That's a very positive Note maybe which I know we've come to the end of our two hours, but that's a That's a really interesting thought and but especially that you made it mathematical right Thank you, sir. You came all the way. Thank you very much